{"id":318346,"date":"2026-04-21T04:43:15","date_gmt":"2026-04-21T08:43:15","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/whats-in-the-way-of-your-friendships-drew-hunter\/"},"modified":"2026-04-21T04:43:17","modified_gmt":"2026-04-21T08:43:17","slug":"whats-in-the-way-of-your-friendships-drew-hunter","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/whats-in-the-way-of-your-friendships-drew-hunter\/","title":{"rendered":"What&#8217;s in the Way of Your Friendships: Drew Hunter"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Friendship hasn\u2019t always been this hard. Author Drew Hunter looks at historical friendships, and some of the ways we get it wrong.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Friendship hasn\u2019t always been this hard. Dave and Ann Wilson are joined by Drew Hunter looking at historical friendships, and some of the ways we get it wrong.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":295627,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/f2a81eff-0f47-4313-b082-b42d014f61da\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:24:55","filesize":"22.85M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2826,2093],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[8671],"cwp_profile":[9885],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-318346","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-men","category-women","podcast_series-made-for-friendship-drew-hunter","cwp_profile-drew-hunter","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Cover_1024x1024.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/318346\/whats-in-the-way-of-your-friendships-drew-hunter","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/318346\/whats-in-the-way-of-your-friendships-drew-hunter","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"shfSpuuoCe\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/whats-in-the-way-of-your-friendships-drew-hunter\/\">What&#8217;s in the Way of Your Friendships: Drew Hunter<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/whats-in-the-way-of-your-friendships-drew-hunter\/embed\/#?secret=shfSpuuoCe\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;What&#8217;s in the Way of Your Friendships: Drew Hunter&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"shfSpuuoCe\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["f2a81eff-0f47-4313-b082-b42d014f61da"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/f2a81eff-0f47-4313-b082-b42d014f61da\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:24:55"],"filesize":["22.85M"],"_thumbnail_id":["295627"],"show_notes":["\n<ul>\n<li>Connect with Drew Hunter and read his articles \"<a href=\"https:\/\/www.crossway.org\/articles\/7-tips-for-being-a-good-friend\/\">7 Tips on being a good friend<\/a> \" and \"<a href=\"https:\/\/www.crossway.org\/articles\/4-guiding-principles-for-cultivating-friendship\/?srsltid=AfmBOoqSNEbz18XPy3du5D0iSjsUfa-QjzHsrZFZumnOqAO4_Lmgyd72\">4 steps on Cultivating True Friendship<\/a>\"<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/made-for-friendship-the-relationship-that-halves-our-sorrows-and-doubles-our-joys\/\">And grab his book, \"Made for Friendship\" in our shop.<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr>\n<ul>\n<li>Thanks to the Christian Standard Bible for sponsoring this episode. Learn more at <a href=\"https:\/\/CSBible.com\">CSBible.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Follow us on all social platforms: <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/familylifeministry\">Facebook<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/familylife.today\/\">Instagram<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLSzse1nmlqbLhDx5FpGVDgLmxy1rmQBau\">YouTube<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from our podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Download <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n"],"transcript_content":["\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nWhat\u2019s in the Way of Your Friendships?\r\n\r\nGuest:Drew Hunter\r\n\r\nFrom the series:Made for Friendship (Day 2 of 2)\r\n\r\nAir date:April 21, 2026\r\n\r\nDrew (00:04):\r\n\r\nJust thinking about the marks of friendship, and what real friendship is: just apply that directly to marriage. Think: \u201cHave I been expressing affection?\u201d \u201cDo I let Christina know that I love her?\u201d and \u201cDo I show that with my words, my actions; how I care for her? Does she know, in her bones, that I love her?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:28):\r\n\r\nWelcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34):\r\n\r\nAnd I'm Ann Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.\r\n\r\nDave (00:47):\r\n\r\nSo you remember Paul Early.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:49):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nDave (00:50):\r\n\r\nA guy I met playing pickup basketball\u2014long story\u2014didn't really have a great home life. He came and ended up living with us, single guy. Now, he's married with kids. It's awesome; unbelievable story. But he became a really close friend, probably 30 years younger than me?\/20 years younger than me.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:07):\r\n\r\nMaybe, 20. \r\n\r\nDave (01:07):\r\n\r\nHe's almost like a son. One day, we're in our kitchen. Paul comes over and gives me this really tight hug, and his beard is right by my cheek.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:20):\r\n\r\nI watched this, and you were so uncomfortable.\r\n\r\nDave (01:23):\r\n\r\nYeah. And I remember he hugged me really tight; and he said, \"Dave Wilson, I love you. Thank you for impacting my life.\" And then, he won't let go. He says, \"Hey, this is making you uncomfortable, isn't it?! \" I'm like, \"Well, yeah, a little.\" And so then, he squeezes harder; and he won't let go. He goes, \"You got to embrace this. This is just me saying you've been an important man in my life.\" I'm like, \"Ugh.\" I remember thinking, \u201cThat really felt uncomfortable,\u201d and I shouldn't be uncomfortable with it.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:55):\r\n\r\nWhy do you think it was uncomfortable?\r\n\r\nDave (01:56):\r\n\r\nI think, obviously, my background is I never had a dad. My family never hugged. Your family never hugged.\r\n\r\nAnn (02:02):\r\n\r\nYour mom kissed you on the lips all the time.\r\n\r\nDave (02:06):\r\n\r\nYeah, I always hated that. I liked it; but I didn't like it, especially when friends would come over, and she'd kiss them. It was uncomfortable; but I thought, \u201cIt shouldn't be uncomfortable.\u201d Paul, a young man, was mentoring me\/teaching me: \u201cThis shouldn't be that bad, uncomfortable thing.\u201d As a man, and even as a father of sons, I've tried to be better.\r\n\r\nAnn (02:31):\r\n\r\nWe walked into the studio this morning, and Rick grabbed you and hugged you real tight.\r\n\r\nDave (02:37):\r\n\r\nHe said, \"Let me give you an uncomfortable hug.\" I'm like, \"Do you know what we're talking about today?!\" He's going to be editing this program later. \r\n\r\nWe've got Drew Hunter in the studio for Day 2. Drew wrote a book about friendship, that we are actually created by God for friendship. You hear me talk about this. How does that hit you? As a man, is that something that's uncomfortable for you?\r\n\r\nDrew (03:00):\r\n\r\nThe story you just shared?\r\n\r\nDave (03:01):\r\n\r\nYeah, or some friend hugging you.\r\n\r\nDrew (03:03):\r\n\r\nNot anymore. I think it would have been at one time.\r\n\r\nDave (03:11):\r\n\r\nSo you're more mature than me, at a young age.\r\n\r\nDrew (03:15):\r\n\r\nWell, I think I've just recognized how important encouragement, affirmation, honesty, expressed affection is for human relationships, and for friendship, and for men. That's actually\u2014I think, probably, a lack of those things is one of the reasons contributing to why friendships can stay so tepid and superficial\u2014because we don't have that kind of open honesty and transparency about how we actually feel about one another and care about each other.\r\n\r\nDave (03:43):\r\n\r\n\u2014which is, actually, a beautiful thing.\r\n\r\nAnn (03:46):\r\n\r\nDrew, you're a dad of four boys, and you're a pastor in Zionsville, Indiana. Your oldest son is 12, so are you still hugging him a lot? \r\n\r\nDrew: Yeah. \r\n\r\nAnn: And will there ever be a day that you won't?\r\n\r\nDrew (03:59):\r\n\r\nOh, I hope not.\r\n\r\nAnn (04:00):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nDrew (04:01):\r\n\r\nNo, I want to have them filled with love and affection. I tell them I love them often. Of course, I want to express that in all of life; and yeah, plenty of big hugs.\r\n\r\nDave (04:13):\r\n\r\nWe had your friend, Dane Ortlund, on.\r\n\r\nDrew (04:15):\r\n\r\nYep.\r\n\r\nDave (04:16):\r\n\r\nWe've had him on several times on FamilyLife Today. We're going to play a clip because he\u2014I don't even remember what we were interviewing him about that day\u2014but he makes a comment about this thing that's pretty beautiful. I'd love to hear your thoughts; because you know Dane; you know his dad.\r\n\r\nDrew (04:31):\r\n\r\n\u2014one of my closest friends.\r\n\r\nDave (04:32):\r\n\r\nSo it'd be fun for you to hear this clip.\r\n\r\n[Previous FamilyLife Today Broadcast]\r\n\r\nDane Ortlund (04:35):\r\n\r\nI'm 43; my dad is 72. To this day, when I walk into my parents' home in Franklin, Tennessee, he gives me a big hug. Maybe, it lasts a few seconds too long; I'm kidding. It's a real hug. Most of the men at my church, when I give them a hug, we're both kind of like, \"Okay, let's release really fast here before this gets awkward.\" Give a good hug, and you're communicating, \"I have sincere affection for you.\u201d\r\n\r\n[Studio]\r\n\r\nDrew (05:08):\r\n\r\nI resonate with that. I've hugged Dane many times. He's a man, actually, who models encouragement, expressed affection, better than most people I know. He's modeled that for me really well, also.\r\n\r\nAnn (05:25):\r\n\r\nI like the legacy of his dad doing that; and then, he's just carried it on.\r\n\r\nDrew (05:30):\r\n\r\nIt's a picture, too, that, as I think about my boys, I'm their father; but ideally, what father\/son relationships can turn into\u2014and mother\/daughter, mother\/children, father\/children\u2014is into friendship as they grow older. Obviously, nothing's ever going to change about the parent dynamic, nor should it; but a layer added to that is friendship. That's what Dane's expressing with his dad, as well. I look forward to my boys growing into my closest friends, as well, over time.\r\n\r\nAnn (06:00):\r\n\r\nI led a Bible study with the Detroit Lions\u2019 wives for about 35 years. There was this one woman, Yvonne, who would host this Bible study. The Bible study for the women kept growing and growing. I was watching Yvonne. Every time someone would come in the door\u2014and mind you, these women are from all over the country; they don\u2019t know each other\u2014but they would walk through the door, and Yvonne would have this huge smile. She\u2019d see them\u2014and she\u2019s from Hawaii\u2014every time, she would kiss them on the cheek; she\u2019d hug them. Everyone felt like, \u201cAh, this is the best place in the world!\u201d They wanted to be her friend, because of her open affection and love for them. \r\n\r\nDave (06:41):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s interesting: I was thinking the same thing during that season of our ministry with the Detroit Lions. We had a quarterback come into our locker room. Honestly, an NFL locker room is not a place with a lot of hugs, unless you\u2019re winning; after a game, there\u2019s a lot of hugs\u2014not so much in Detroit. \r\n\r\nThere was this one quarterback, Josh McCown, who was such a lover of people; he was a joy-bringer.\r\n\r\nAnn (07:07):\r\n\r\nHe reminds me a little bit of Dane, actually. \r\n\r\nDave (07:10):\r\n\r\nYes, he does. He\u2019s a man of God, a man of the Word. He came in Detroit just one season; and then, was traded to another team; he played in the NFL for 15 years. Another quarterback came in the same year, John Kitna, who was our starter and our backup. Those two men of God had this unique ability in our locker room. I used to comment about those years: the whole locker room tilted toward their lockers because John was a strong man of the Word; he had a Bible as big as this table in his locker. Josh was a man of the Word, as well. And yet, he had this tender, loving affectionate love for the men. We baptized 27 players that season.\r\n\r\nDrew: Wow.\r\n\r\nAnn (07:53):\r\n\r\nAnd they were really good friends.\r\n\r\nDave (07:55):\r\n\r\nThey were great friends. \r\n\r\nAs I think about that season, I think a lot of it was John's strong, courageous commitment; but Josh's tender love for the locker room. When I say the locker room was leaning toward their lockers, they were drawn over there, like a magnet. It was this friendship-thing you're talking about, that we're made for friendship. Even NFL macho men, who you think don't want friendship, are little boys inside who are longing for another man to see them, and acknowledge them, and want to have a relationship with them. \r\n\r\nIs that what God designed us for? Is that what you've seen?\r\n\r\nDrew (08:34):\r\n\r\nYes, absolutely. Even your story reminds me that this isn\u2019t for certain personality types\u2014it\u2019s not like: \u201cOh, that guy\u2019s good at friendship; that\u2019s for him,\u201d or  \u201cHe\u2019s really good at encouraging people,\u201d\u2014sure, some people can be way out in the lead, doing it well; but Romans 12 says, \u201cOutdo one another in showing honor.\u201d That\u2019s expressing esteem for one another; that\u2019s what it means to show honor. Every Christian is called, in any room that we\u2019re ever in\u2014we\u2019ll walk out, and someone will have won\u2014they will have outdone everyone else in showing honor.\r\n\r\n(09:13) Every Christian is called to pursue being that person, who\u2014not like we need to feel like we\u2019re better than other people\u2014but there is a godly sense of competition in the sense that, in every gathering, someone's going to have shown the most honor to others. We should all be striving to do that. Some people are better than others; but we shouldn't see that as: \u201cWell, that's just their thing. That's not comfortable for me.\u201d \r\n\r\nWe all can grow into\u2014we should all\u2014I just think there's so many cultural influences that keep people, and men, from being able to look another man in the eye, and say, \"I love you, and I respect you. And let me tell you something that I appreciate about you that you did for me. I don't know if you noticed I even knew that, but that really meant a lot to me.\" That kind of sharing\u2014it's been very rare in our culture\u2014and I think we shouldn't take that as just reflective of the way the world should be. This is the way it is right now; but how it should be is expressing honor, affirmation, encouragement.\r\n\r\n(09:58) In fact, I read a book called The Overflowing of Friendship by a historian, who is studying letters between men in the early founding era of America. He says he reads the letters to his students now, and their jaws drop; because they can't imagine what it would be like to have this kind of affection and encouragement expressed to one another. In our world, we've so sexualized relationships that we just assume: \u201cIf you're saying really kind, affectionate things to one another, there must be something else going on.\u201d He just says, \"Not at all.\" There is not a hint of that in these letters and in these relationships. This is just men expressing love, and affection, and care for one another. \r\n\r\n(10:48) We see that in David and Jonathan; we see that in the Apostle Paul. \r\n\r\nAnn: That\u2019s what I was thinking.\r\n\r\nDrew: They kiss each other, probably on the cheek, with a cultural greeting. They're crying when they leave each other. The Bible calls us, all Christians, to encourage one another.\r\n\r\nAnn (11:00):\r\n\r\nWhat\u2019s the culture, Dave?\u2014we were somewhere, where the men, wherever they go, hold hands.\r\n\r\nDrew (11:06):\r\n\r\nYeah, there's places like that. \r\n\r\nDave (11:08):\r\n\r\nIt's true; when I've been in the bush in Africa, they do that. It's just their\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014in Kenya.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014community. It's nothing sexualized about at all; it's exactly what you just said. \r\n\r\nI know that, in the last few years, the guys that I have friendships around the country\u2014some of them former NFL Detroit Lion guys\u2014when we hang up, it's always, \"Hey, love you.\" Twenty ago, I didn't say that; but that's a good thing to say to a friend\u2014and obviously, as a dad to your children, but it's a good thing. \r\n\r\nI want to hear you talk about your subtitle: How a Friend Doubles Our Joy and Halves Our Sorrow. Talk about that.\r\n\r\nDrew (11:49):\r\n\r\nThat line is somewhat modified from JC Ryle, who put it similarly. He was picking up a phrase that, through history, was kind of rolling through the ages. The way that he put it says: \"This world is a dark place; it's a lonely place; it's a disappointing place.\" He's recognizing the reality of sin and sadness in our life; but then, he says, \"The brightest sunbeam in it is a friend. Friendship halves our troubles and doubles our joys.\" \r\n\r\nWhat I love about that is both its realism: \u201cLife is hard,\u201d\u2014we all know this: lonely, disappointing\u2014but then, God shines the light in. The brightest beam is friendship; which is, \u201cIf that's true,\u201d\u2014and I think it is: both friendship with the Lord Jesus and one another\u2014\"then I want in on that.\u201d The benefits of that is this halving our troubles and sorrows\u2014cutting those in half\u2014and then, doubling our joys. \r\n\r\n(12:45) That\u2019s been my experience: any burden I'm going through, if I'm going through it with someone who knows me, and loves me, just even them caring about me through this, lifts the load off my shoulders, cuts it. I've been through stuff in my life, where I think, \u201cIf I didn't have those close friends with me, I don't know how that would have turned out, or what I would have done. There's no way I could have gotten through that.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnd then, doubling the joys: \u201cEverything is better in life with friends.\u201d There's so many experiences in life that I've had where, if you remove friends from those experiences, and you can say, \"Well, that was great. You went to this place; you saw those mountains\u2019 you experienced that.\" Well, yeah; but if you take my friends out of that experience, I wouldn't be talking about it as an amazing memory. It's friendship that doubles those joys and just makes life better. \r\n\r\nSo when you ask me: \u201cWhat's best in life?\u201d I'm going to start naming people for you, because that's what's best in life.\r\n\r\nAnn (13:40):\r\n\r\nThat's really good. I'm thinking about Michelle. I have some really pretty amazing friends; and Michelle happens to have a shepherding gift, too. When my sister died, I walked into my house after the funeral. My house was full of flowers everywhere and Scripture everywhere. I think of how she was there. She was there sitting, listening, being there; sending me Scripture. \r\n\r\nAnd then, when I turned 40\u2014this is pretty remarkable\u2014do you remember this, Dave? \r\n\r\nDave: Oh, yeah. \r\n\r\nAnn: She contacted 40 friends. Now, if there's 40, you know they're not super, super close; but 40 friends of mine. For 40 days before my birthday, she had someone give me a gift, for 40 days! It was the most amazing birthday ever! A friend is thinking about you, and that's what I thought: \u201cShe's thinking about me.\u201d The day before each one of our sons got married\u2014it's going to make me teary\u2014she would always give me this long letter of how she saw me parent that son and how she was inspired by it. I think back on some of the greatest moments of my life, it was Michelle creating these incredible times. I think, as you said, my life has been so much richer with her. \r\n\r\n(14:50) And Dave\u2014he's my best friend\u2014but I also need other women beside me.\r\n\r\nDave (15:08):\r\n\r\nWhen her sister died\u2014I did the funeral in a different state; she was in Georgia\u2014it was obviously\u2014she was 44; had four boys; it was quick cancer thing\u2014it was a horrible day. I'm the pastor in the family. I'm standing up in front of her four boys, her husband, and Ann's dad; [I\u2019m] looking at all these people in your family.\r\n\r\nAll of a sudden, the back door of the church\u2014we\u2019re in some church in the Atlanta area\u2014actually, Tennessee area.\r\n\r\nAnn (15:41):\r\n\r\nTalton.\r\n\r\nDave (15:42):\r\n\r\nThe back door of the church opens. Five or six of our closest friends from Michigan walk in, right before the funeral. I'm like, \"What are you doing here?\" One of our friends, who has a private jet, flew them down. He contacted them, and said, \"You need to be there with Dave and Ann, because you're their closest friends.\" What you said\u2014there was sorrow\u2014but somehow, that halved it. It was just so good to have community in the middle of a valley. That's what you're talking about.\r\n\r\nDrew (16:16):\r\n\r\nYour story about your friend having those 40 notes reminds me of Christina, who to your question earlier, if I have a best friend, it's actually her. \r\n\r\nDrew: \u2014your wife. \r\n\r\nDrew: Yeah\u2014not the only friend\u2014but best friend. I turned 40; and she contacted a number of my friends and had them just write a note to me, just expressing some memory or some appreciation. And then, she compiled it into a little book. I was actually having kind of a rough day\u2014turning 40 hit me in ways I wasn't prepared for.\r\n\r\nAnn: It's a hard one.\r\n\r\nDrew (16:43):\r\n\r\nIt is. I usually do a pretty good job\u2014anticipating things, watching other people go through things\u2014so I'm not kind of caught off guard. It did hit me, and it was hard. And then, I opened that book and started reading. I was in tears\u2014it took a while to get through it\u2014but it was so meaningful. [It] actually gave me so much hope for the next ten years, to think so many of these rich relationships I have, and the memories they shared were from the past ten or fifteen years. The next ten or fifteen, Lord willing, can be just as rich. It's really meaningful\u2014and then, it's added so much\u2014that's the joy in life, what God gives us through people.\r\n\r\nDave (17:24):\r\n\r\nHey, let me just pause and say this: our financial partners are the heartbeat of this ministry. When you join this monthly giving community, you're not just donating, you're building something eternal.\r\n\r\nAnn (17:36):\r\n\r\nAnd we'd be so honored to have you on the journey with us. We really would. So here's the question: \u201cWill you join us today?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (17:45):\r\n\r\nI hope your answer is \u201cYes.\u201d And if it is, go to FamilyLifeToday.com. You can click the \u201cDonate\u201d button right there, and become a part of the Monthly Partner Program.\r\n\r\nAnn (17:58):\r\n\r\nTalk about being a \u201cconsumer friend\u201d in that consumer friendship. What's that mean?\r\n\r\nDrew (18:03):\r\n\r\nYou contrast \u201cconsumer friendship\u201d with we could call \u201ccommitted\u201d or \u201ccovenantal friendships.\u201d David and Jonathan make a covenant of friendship. I don't think that we all need to make covenants of friendship, but it gets at something that's a contrast with how friendship is normally experienced by some people. \r\n\r\nConsumer friendship is the idea that your friendship is there to be used by you. When you want something from them, you can go to them. And so people\u2014networking is huge today\u2014but people can turn friendship and make networking and friendship the same thing in their life. They just see everyone as a potential for something else\u2014using [them] for a good time\u2014and when things get hard in that person's life, then, they don't show up. They aren't going to call them, because they're not deep and connected; and they haven't had a relationship that would be comfortable stepping in [during] hard times or suffering.\r\n\r\n(18:51) That's consumer friendship. It's like consuming goods: when they're useful, you have them; when they're not, you discard them and move on. Proverbs talks about that, talking about how often people treat people with money. The rich have many friends; the poor have their friends even leave them That's consumer friendship. \r\n\r\nCovenantal or committed friendship means, like Proverbs 17 says, \"A friend loves at all times, and a brother's born for adversity.\" Even in the hardship, you don't forsake your friend. In fact, Proverbs says, \"Do not forsake your friend or your father's friend.\" In the context of that Proverb\u2014calamity coming into someone's life\u2014your friend loses his job; gets diagnosed with cancer; sinks into depression. What do you do? Well, Proverbs says the one thing you can't do is forsake them; you move close. You express solidarity with them in that. \r\n\r\nI remember I was going through a really hard time, at one point. In fact, Dane knew I was going through this hard time; and he just showed up one day. \r\n\r\nAnn (19:52):\r\n\r\n\u2014at your door?\r\n\r\nDrew (19:53):\r\n\r\nWell, actually, at my church. It was Sunday\u2014drove by\u2014and stood next to me or stood behind me, gave me a hug; and then, we had lunch; and then, he went back\u2014because he knew I was having a hard time in life. He just showed up\u2014I'll never forget that\u2014deeply meaningful. That's a covenantal friend; that's a committed friend. In the good times and the bad times, expressing love, and solidarity, and staying with that person. \r\n\r\nJob's friends are a bad example in so many ways, but they had a decent start. It looks: they showed up; they sat with him; they wept with him.\r\n\r\nDave (20:24):\r\n\r\nAnd then, they said things.\r\n\r\nDrew (20:26):\r\n\r\nAnd then, maybe, don't say things if you don't know what to say.\r\n\r\nDave (20:30):\r\n\r\nAs I'm thinking of a husband and wife\u2014because you talk about you and Christina are great friends; Ann and I are great friends\u2014how do you build a great friendship in your marriage? Because not a lot of marriages have that.\r\n\r\nDrew (20:42):\r\n\r\nRight; yes. Maybe, a first step is, if you recognize you don't have it, just acknowledge that together; and speak openly about what you wish it could be. Own your own shortcomings in that. I think just thinking about the marks of friendship, and what real friendship is: just apply that directly to marriage. Think:\r\n\r\n\u201cHave I been expressing affection?\u201d \r\n\r\n\u201cDo I let Christina know that I love her? Do I show that with my words, my actions; how I care for her?\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cDoes she know, in her bones, that I love her?\u201d and \u201cIt's obvious that I do?\u201d Not: Sometimes, [she\u2019s] like, \"I know he loves me, but it's like\u2026\u201d [She needs] to feel it; it needs to be obvious. \r\n\r\n(21:31) Communication [and] transparency is a mark of friendship\u2014speaking openly and honestly about our own weaknesses and shortcomings\u20141 John 1:7 calls us to walk in the light. \u201cWalk in the light as He is in the light,\u201d\u2014that's not walking in perfection\u2014the context of that is actually just walking in honesty; it's coming out of hiding. \u201cIs there some sin in your life, or collection of sins, or struggles that you have that you don't bring to your spouse?\u201d Walking in the light is coming out of hiding, in the light. What \r\n\r\n1 John 1:7 says is out there: \u201cReal forgiveness, felt forgiveness. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness; and real friendship\/fellowship with one another.\u201d \r\n\r\nFelt forgiveness, real friendship in marriage, happens through walking in the light together\u2014confessing sin, being open, knowing each other\u2014not treating each other as a consumer either, but a committed covenantal friend, caring for each other and serving in those ways. \r\n\r\n(22:22) Jesus is the perfect friend: \u201cGreater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.\u201d Love is affectionate, committed, self-sacrificial. Serve in love; confess and apologize when you don't; be quick to apologize, quick to repent; quick to forgive\u2014I could go on and on\u2014all these things that friendship needs, need to be in there as well. Taking the first step is owning your own part of that and seeing that you're the problem.\r\n\r\nAnn (22:42):\r\n\r\nI like thinking about that conversation with a husband or wife, of saying, \"I'd love us to be even better friends. What do you think that could look like?\u201d or \u201cWhat could we do to become better friends?\" And I would add one more: \u201cHave fun together.\u201d \r\n\r\nDrew: Totally. \r\n\r\nAnn: You and Christina are about to have a few days together of just having fun. \r\n\r\nDrew: Right. \r\n\r\nAnn: And that is another thing\u2014it's a magnet\u2014it draws you close to one another. \r\n\r\nThat's fun; this has been great! \r\n\r\nDave (23:07):\r\n\r\nI would just end with this: listening to what you just said, Drew, and reading your book, I am such a blessed man; because my best friend is sitting right here.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:17):\r\n\r\nYou're my best friend, too! \r\n\r\nDave (23:21):\r\n\r\nYou are such a great friend.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:21):\r\n\r\nYou are, too. \r\n\r\nDave (23:22):\r\n\r\nYou love me; you speak truth to me. I am so thankful. \r\n\r\nI'm sure you feel the same way about Christina. Not all men or spouses get that.\r\n\r\nDrew (23:31):\r\n\r\nRight.\r\n\r\nAnn: But you can get it.\r\n\r\nDave (23:32):\r\n\r\nIt's a lot of work.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:32):\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019re not there, you can get it. \r\n\r\nDrew: You can get there. \r\n\r\nDave (23:35):\r\n\r\nGod wants you to have it; but it's on us to pursue it, and do the marks of friendship that you talk about.\r\n\r\nDrew (23:42):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nDave (23:47):\r\n\r\nWhat a great day with Drew Hunter, talking about friendship, and community, and the power of relationships. By the way, the book, again, is called Made for Friendship: The Relationship that Halves Our Sorrows and Doubles Our Joys. \r\n\r\nAnn (23:59):\r\n\r\nDoesn\u2019t it make you want to have more friends?\r\n\r\nDave (24:01):\r\n\r\nI got enough. You just need a few; you don't need a thousand. \r\n\r\nAnn (24:06):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s true, but it's just so good. \r\n\r\nYou can get your copy by just clicking the link in the show notes at FamilyLifeToday.com.\r\n\r\nDave (24:13):\r\n\r\nI'll tell you what\u2014a lot of people don't know this\u2014but we're on YouTube.\r\n\r\nAnn (24:16):\r\n\r\nI love watching YouTube clips. You get a lot more out of it, I think, when you're watching people. \r\n\r\nDave (24:21):\r\n\r\nThe next generation's probably going to watch it rather than just listen to it. You can do either\/or. If you want to watch and enjoy it\u2014YouTube.com\/FamilyLife\u2014just go to YouTube.com\/FamilyLife. Or if you're a big YouTube person, just go to YouTube and type in FamilyLife\u2014one word.\r\n\r\nAnn (24:37):\r\n\r\nI put three words on there, and it still worked: FamilyLife Today.\r\n\r\nDave (24:45):\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nCelebrating 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?\r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2026 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife.com\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2026-04-21.pdf"],"ssp_guid":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/whats-in-the-way-of-your-friendships-drew-hunter\/"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__video-wrap video{opacity: 1;}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-is-root-container .uagb-block-e11dbe9f{max-width: 100%;width: 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});\";s:18:\"current_block_list\";a:17:{i:0;s:14:\"uagb\/container\";i:1;s:12:\"core\/heading\";i:2;s:9:\"core\/html\";i:3;s:10:\"core\/group\";i:6;s:21:\"uagb\/advanced-heading\";i:7;s:14:\"uagb\/separator\";i:8;s:14:\"uagb\/icon-list\";i:9;s:20:\"uagb\/icon-list-child\";i:10;s:11:\"core\/search\";i:13;s:18:\"core\/legacy-widget\";i:16;s:10:\"uagb\/image\";i:17;s:17:\"core\/social-links\";i:18;s:16:\"core\/social-link\";i:19;s:14:\"core\/paragraph\";i:20;s:30:\"meta-box\/fl-conditional-blocks\";i:21;s:12:\"uagb\/buttons\";i:22;s:18:\"uagb\/buttons-child\";}s:8:\"uag_flag\";b:1;s:11:\"uag_version\";i:1776933811;s:6:\"gfonts\";a:1:{s:7:\"Default\";a:2:{s:10:\"fontfamily\";s:7:\"Default\";s:12:\"fontvariants\";a:0:{}}}s:10:\"gfonts_url\";s:71:\"\/\/fonts.googleapis.com\/css?family=Default&subset=latin&display=fallback\";s:12:\"gfonts_files\";a:0:{}s:14:\"uag_faq_layout\";b:0;}"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Cover_1024x1024.jpg",1024,1024,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Friendship hasn\u2019t always been this hard. Dave and Ann Wilson are joined by Drew Hunter looking at historical friendships, and some of the ways we get it wrong.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"\n<ul>\n<li>Connect with Drew Hunter and read his articles \"<a href=\"https:\/\/www.crossway.org\/articles\/7-tips-for-being-a-good-friend\/\">7 Tips on being a good friend<\/a> \" and \"<a href=\"https:\/\/www.crossway.org\/articles\/4-guiding-principles-for-cultivating-friendship\/?srsltid=AfmBOoqSNEbz18XPy3du5D0iSjsUfa-QjzHsrZFZumnOqAO4_Lmgyd72\">4 steps on Cultivating True Friendship<\/a>\"<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/made-for-friendship-the-relationship-that-halves-our-sorrows-and-doubles-our-joys\/\">And grab his book, \"Made for Friendship\" in our shop.<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr>\n<ul>\n<li>Thanks to the Christian Standard Bible for sponsoring this episode. Learn more at <a href=\"https:\/\/CSBible.com\">CSBible.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Follow us on all social platforms: <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/familylifeministry\">Facebook<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/familylife.today\/\">Instagram<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLSzse1nmlqbLhDx5FpGVDgLmxy1rmQBau\">YouTube<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from our podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Download <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2026-04-21.pdf","transcript_content":"\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nWhat\u2019s in the Way of Your Friendships?\r\n\r\nGuest:Drew Hunter\r\n\r\nFrom the series:Made for Friendship (Day 2 of 2)\r\n\r\nAir date:April 21, 2026\r\n\r\nDrew (00:04):\r\n\r\nJust thinking about the marks of friendship, and what real friendship is: just apply that directly to marriage. Think: \u201cHave I been expressing affection?\u201d \u201cDo I let Christina know that I love her?\u201d and \u201cDo I show that with my words, my actions; how I care for her? Does she know, in her bones, that I love her?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:28):\r\n\r\nWelcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34):\r\n\r\nAnd I'm Ann Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.\r\n\r\nDave (00:47):\r\n\r\nSo you remember Paul Early.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:49):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nDave (00:50):\r\n\r\nA guy I met playing pickup basketball\u2014long story\u2014didn't really have a great home life. He came and ended up living with us, single guy. Now, he's married with kids. It's awesome; unbelievable story. But he became a really close friend, probably 30 years younger than me?\/20 years younger than me.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:07):\r\n\r\nMaybe, 20. \r\n\r\nDave (01:07):\r\n\r\nHe's almost like a son. One day, we're in our kitchen. Paul comes over and gives me this really tight hug, and his beard is right by my cheek.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:20):\r\n\r\nI watched this, and you were so uncomfortable.\r\n\r\nDave (01:23):\r\n\r\nYeah. And I remember he hugged me really tight; and he said, \"Dave Wilson, I love you. Thank you for impacting my life.\" And then, he won't let go. He says, \"Hey, this is making you uncomfortable, isn't it?! \" I'm like, \"Well, yeah, a little.\" And so then, he squeezes harder; and he won't let go. He goes, \"You got to embrace this. This is just me saying you've been an important man in my life.\" I'm like, \"Ugh.\" I remember thinking, \u201cThat really felt uncomfortable,\u201d and I shouldn't be uncomfortable with it.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:55):\r\n\r\nWhy do you think it was uncomfortable?\r\n\r\nDave (01:56):\r\n\r\nI think, obviously, my background is I never had a dad. My family never hugged. Your family never hugged.\r\n\r\nAnn (02:02):\r\n\r\nYour mom kissed you on the lips all the time.\r\n\r\nDave (02:06):\r\n\r\nYeah, I always hated that. I liked it; but I didn't like it, especially when friends would come over, and she'd kiss them. It was uncomfortable; but I thought, \u201cIt shouldn't be uncomfortable.\u201d Paul, a young man, was mentoring me\/teaching me: \u201cThis shouldn't be that bad, uncomfortable thing.\u201d As a man, and even as a father of sons, I've tried to be better.\r\n\r\nAnn (02:31):\r\n\r\nWe walked into the studio this morning, and Rick grabbed you and hugged you real tight.\r\n\r\nDave (02:37):\r\n\r\nHe said, \"Let me give you an uncomfortable hug.\" I'm like, \"Do you know what we're talking about today?!\" He's going to be editing this program later. \r\n\r\nWe've got Drew Hunter in the studio for Day 2. Drew wrote a book about friendship, that we are actually created by God for friendship. You hear me talk about this. How does that hit you? As a man, is that something that's uncomfortable for you?\r\n\r\nDrew (03:00):\r\n\r\nThe story you just shared?\r\n\r\nDave (03:01):\r\n\r\nYeah, or some friend hugging you.\r\n\r\nDrew (03:03):\r\n\r\nNot anymore. I think it would have been at one time.\r\n\r\nDave (03:11):\r\n\r\nSo you're more mature than me, at a young age.\r\n\r\nDrew (03:15):\r\n\r\nWell, I think I've just recognized how important encouragement, affirmation, honesty, expressed affection is for human relationships, and for friendship, and for men. That's actually\u2014I think, probably, a lack of those things is one of the reasons contributing to why friendships can stay so tepid and superficial\u2014because we don't have that kind of open honesty and transparency about how we actually feel about one another and care about each other.\r\n\r\nDave (03:43):\r\n\r\n\u2014which is, actually, a beautiful thing.\r\n\r\nAnn (03:46):\r\n\r\nDrew, you're a dad of four boys, and you're a pastor in Zionsville, Indiana. Your oldest son is 12, so are you still hugging him a lot? \r\n\r\nDrew: Yeah. \r\n\r\nAnn: And will there ever be a day that you won't?\r\n\r\nDrew (03:59):\r\n\r\nOh, I hope not.\r\n\r\nAnn (04:00):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nDrew (04:01):\r\n\r\nNo, I want to have them filled with love and affection. I tell them I love them often. Of course, I want to express that in all of life; and yeah, plenty of big hugs.\r\n\r\nDave (04:13):\r\n\r\nWe had your friend, Dane Ortlund, on.\r\n\r\nDrew (04:15):\r\n\r\nYep.\r\n\r\nDave (04:16):\r\n\r\nWe've had him on several times on FamilyLife Today. We're going to play a clip because he\u2014I don't even remember what we were interviewing him about that day\u2014but he makes a comment about this thing that's pretty beautiful. I'd love to hear your thoughts; because you know Dane; you know his dad.\r\n\r\nDrew (04:31):\r\n\r\n\u2014one of my closest friends.\r\n\r\nDave (04:32):\r\n\r\nSo it'd be fun for you to hear this clip.\r\n\r\n[Previous FamilyLife Today Broadcast]\r\n\r\nDane Ortlund (04:35):\r\n\r\nI'm 43; my dad is 72. To this day, when I walk into my parents' home in Franklin, Tennessee, he gives me a big hug. Maybe, it lasts a few seconds too long; I'm kidding. It's a real hug. Most of the men at my church, when I give them a hug, we're both kind of like, \"Okay, let's release really fast here before this gets awkward.\" Give a good hug, and you're communicating, \"I have sincere affection for you.\u201d\r\n\r\n[Studio]\r\n\r\nDrew (05:08):\r\n\r\nI resonate with that. I've hugged Dane many times. He's a man, actually, who models encouragement, expressed affection, better than most people I know. He's modeled that for me really well, also.\r\n\r\nAnn (05:25):\r\n\r\nI like the legacy of his dad doing that; and then, he's just carried it on.\r\n\r\nDrew (05:30):\r\n\r\nIt's a picture, too, that, as I think about my boys, I'm their father; but ideally, what father\/son relationships can turn into\u2014and mother\/daughter, mother\/children, father\/children\u2014is into friendship as they grow older. Obviously, nothing's ever going to change about the parent dynamic, nor should it; but a layer added to that is friendship. That's what Dane's expressing with his dad, as well. I look forward to my boys growing into my closest friends, as well, over time.\r\n\r\nAnn (06:00):\r\n\r\nI led a Bible study with the Detroit Lions\u2019 wives for about 35 years. There was this one woman, Yvonne, who would host this Bible study. The Bible study for the women kept growing and growing. I was watching Yvonne. Every time someone would come in the door\u2014and mind you, these women are from all over the country; they don\u2019t know each other\u2014but they would walk through the door, and Yvonne would have this huge smile. She\u2019d see them\u2014and she\u2019s from Hawaii\u2014every time, she would kiss them on the cheek; she\u2019d hug them. Everyone felt like, \u201cAh, this is the best place in the world!\u201d They wanted to be her friend, because of her open affection and love for them. \r\n\r\nDave (06:41):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s interesting: I was thinking the same thing during that season of our ministry with the Detroit Lions. We had a quarterback come into our locker room. Honestly, an NFL locker room is not a place with a lot of hugs, unless you\u2019re winning; after a game, there\u2019s a lot of hugs\u2014not so much in Detroit. \r\n\r\nThere was this one quarterback, Josh McCown, who was such a lover of people; he was a joy-bringer.\r\n\r\nAnn (07:07):\r\n\r\nHe reminds me a little bit of Dane, actually. \r\n\r\nDave (07:10):\r\n\r\nYes, he does. He\u2019s a man of God, a man of the Word. He came in Detroit just one season; and then, was traded to another team; he played in the NFL for 15 years. Another quarterback came in the same year, John Kitna, who was our starter and our backup. Those two men of God had this unique ability in our locker room. I used to comment about those years: the whole locker room tilted toward their lockers because John was a strong man of the Word; he had a Bible as big as this table in his locker. Josh was a man of the Word, as well. And yet, he had this tender, loving affectionate love for the men. We baptized 27 players that season.\r\n\r\nDrew: Wow.\r\n\r\nAnn (07:53):\r\n\r\nAnd they were really good friends.\r\n\r\nDave (07:55):\r\n\r\nThey were great friends. \r\n\r\nAs I think about that season, I think a lot of it was John's strong, courageous commitment; but Josh's tender love for the locker room. When I say the locker room was leaning toward their lockers, they were drawn over there, like a magnet. It was this friendship-thing you're talking about, that we're made for friendship. Even NFL macho men, who you think don't want friendship, are little boys inside who are longing for another man to see them, and acknowledge them, and want to have a relationship with them. \r\n\r\nIs that what God designed us for? Is that what you've seen?\r\n\r\nDrew (08:34):\r\n\r\nYes, absolutely. Even your story reminds me that this isn\u2019t for certain personality types\u2014it\u2019s not like: \u201cOh, that guy\u2019s good at friendship; that\u2019s for him,\u201d or  \u201cHe\u2019s really good at encouraging people,\u201d\u2014sure, some people can be way out in the lead, doing it well; but Romans 12 says, \u201cOutdo one another in showing honor.\u201d That\u2019s expressing esteem for one another; that\u2019s what it means to show honor. Every Christian is called, in any room that we\u2019re ever in\u2014we\u2019ll walk out, and someone will have won\u2014they will have outdone everyone else in showing honor.\r\n\r\n(09:13) Every Christian is called to pursue being that person, who\u2014not like we need to feel like we\u2019re better than other people\u2014but there is a godly sense of competition in the sense that, in every gathering, someone's going to have shown the most honor to others. We should all be striving to do that. Some people are better than others; but we shouldn't see that as: \u201cWell, that's just their thing. That's not comfortable for me.\u201d \r\n\r\nWe all can grow into\u2014we should all\u2014I just think there's so many cultural influences that keep people, and men, from being able to look another man in the eye, and say, \"I love you, and I respect you. And let me tell you something that I appreciate about you that you did for me. I don't know if you noticed I even knew that, but that really meant a lot to me.\" That kind of sharing\u2014it's been very rare in our culture\u2014and I think we shouldn't take that as just reflective of the way the world should be. This is the way it is right now; but how it should be is expressing honor, affirmation, encouragement.\r\n\r\n(09:58) In fact, I read a book called The Overflowing of Friendship by a historian, who is studying letters between men in the early founding era of America. He says he reads the letters to his students now, and their jaws drop; because they can't imagine what it would be like to have this kind of affection and encouragement expressed to one another. In our world, we've so sexualized relationships that we just assume: \u201cIf you're saying really kind, affectionate things to one another, there must be something else going on.\u201d He just says, \"Not at all.\" There is not a hint of that in these letters and in these relationships. This is just men expressing love, and affection, and care for one another. \r\n\r\n(10:48) We see that in David and Jonathan; we see that in the Apostle Paul. \r\n\r\nAnn: That\u2019s what I was thinking.\r\n\r\nDrew: They kiss each other, probably on the cheek, with a cultural greeting. They're crying when they leave each other. The Bible calls us, all Christians, to encourage one another.\r\n\r\nAnn (11:00):\r\n\r\nWhat\u2019s the culture, Dave?\u2014we were somewhere, where the men, wherever they go, hold hands.\r\n\r\nDrew (11:06):\r\n\r\nYeah, there's places like that. \r\n\r\nDave (11:08):\r\n\r\nIt's true; when I've been in the bush in Africa, they do that. It's just their\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014in Kenya.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014community. It's nothing sexualized about at all; it's exactly what you just said. \r\n\r\nI know that, in the last few years, the guys that I have friendships around the country\u2014some of them former NFL Detroit Lion guys\u2014when we hang up, it's always, \"Hey, love you.\" Twenty ago, I didn't say that; but that's a good thing to say to a friend\u2014and obviously, as a dad to your children, but it's a good thing. \r\n\r\nI want to hear you talk about your subtitle: How a Friend Doubles Our Joy and Halves Our Sorrow. Talk about that.\r\n\r\nDrew (11:49):\r\n\r\nThat line is somewhat modified from JC Ryle, who put it similarly. He was picking up a phrase that, through history, was kind of rolling through the ages. The way that he put it says: \"This world is a dark place; it's a lonely place; it's a disappointing place.\" He's recognizing the reality of sin and sadness in our life; but then, he says, \"The brightest sunbeam in it is a friend. Friendship halves our troubles and doubles our joys.\" \r\n\r\nWhat I love about that is both its realism: \u201cLife is hard,\u201d\u2014we all know this: lonely, disappointing\u2014but then, God shines the light in. The brightest beam is friendship; which is, \u201cIf that's true,\u201d\u2014and I think it is: both friendship with the Lord Jesus and one another\u2014\"then I want in on that.\u201d The benefits of that is this halving our troubles and sorrows\u2014cutting those in half\u2014and then, doubling our joys. \r\n\r\n(12:45) That\u2019s been my experience: any burden I'm going through, if I'm going through it with someone who knows me, and loves me, just even them caring about me through this, lifts the load off my shoulders, cuts it. I've been through stuff in my life, where I think, \u201cIf I didn't have those close friends with me, I don't know how that would have turned out, or what I would have done. There's no way I could have gotten through that.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnd then, doubling the joys: \u201cEverything is better in life with friends.\u201d There's so many experiences in life that I've had where, if you remove friends from those experiences, and you can say, \"Well, that was great. You went to this place; you saw those mountains\u2019 you experienced that.\" Well, yeah; but if you take my friends out of that experience, I wouldn't be talking about it as an amazing memory. It's friendship that doubles those joys and just makes life better. \r\n\r\nSo when you ask me: \u201cWhat's best in life?\u201d I'm going to start naming people for you, because that's what's best in life.\r\n\r\nAnn (13:40):\r\n\r\nThat's really good. I'm thinking about Michelle. I have some really pretty amazing friends; and Michelle happens to have a shepherding gift, too. When my sister died, I walked into my house after the funeral. My house was full of flowers everywhere and Scripture everywhere. I think of how she was there. She was there sitting, listening, being there; sending me Scripture. \r\n\r\nAnd then, when I turned 40\u2014this is pretty remarkable\u2014do you remember this, Dave? \r\n\r\nDave: Oh, yeah. \r\n\r\nAnn: She contacted 40 friends. Now, if there's 40, you know they're not super, super close; but 40 friends of mine. For 40 days before my birthday, she had someone give me a gift, for 40 days! It was the most amazing birthday ever! A friend is thinking about you, and that's what I thought: \u201cShe's thinking about me.\u201d The day before each one of our sons got married\u2014it's going to make me teary\u2014she would always give me this long letter of how she saw me parent that son and how she was inspired by it. I think back on some of the greatest moments of my life, it was Michelle creating these incredible times. I think, as you said, my life has been so much richer with her. \r\n\r\n(14:50) And Dave\u2014he's my best friend\u2014but I also need other women beside me.\r\n\r\nDave (15:08):\r\n\r\nWhen her sister died\u2014I did the funeral in a different state; she was in Georgia\u2014it was obviously\u2014she was 44; had four boys; it was quick cancer thing\u2014it was a horrible day. I'm the pastor in the family. I'm standing up in front of her four boys, her husband, and Ann's dad; [I\u2019m] looking at all these people in your family.\r\n\r\nAll of a sudden, the back door of the church\u2014we\u2019re in some church in the Atlanta area\u2014actually, Tennessee area.\r\n\r\nAnn (15:41):\r\n\r\nTalton.\r\n\r\nDave (15:42):\r\n\r\nThe back door of the church opens. Five or six of our closest friends from Michigan walk in, right before the funeral. I'm like, \"What are you doing here?\" One of our friends, who has a private jet, flew them down. He contacted them, and said, \"You need to be there with Dave and Ann, because you're their closest friends.\" What you said\u2014there was sorrow\u2014but somehow, that halved it. It was just so good to have community in the middle of a valley. That's what you're talking about.\r\n\r\nDrew (16:16):\r\n\r\nYour story about your friend having those 40 notes reminds me of Christina, who to your question earlier, if I have a best friend, it's actually her. \r\n\r\nDrew: \u2014your wife. \r\n\r\nDrew: Yeah\u2014not the only friend\u2014but best friend. I turned 40; and she contacted a number of my friends and had them just write a note to me, just expressing some memory or some appreciation. And then, she compiled it into a little book. I was actually having kind of a rough day\u2014turning 40 hit me in ways I wasn't prepared for.\r\n\r\nAnn: It's a hard one.\r\n\r\nDrew (16:43):\r\n\r\nIt is. I usually do a pretty good job\u2014anticipating things, watching other people go through things\u2014so I'm not kind of caught off guard. It did hit me, and it was hard. And then, I opened that book and started reading. I was in tears\u2014it took a while to get through it\u2014but it was so meaningful. [It] actually gave me so much hope for the next ten years, to think so many of these rich relationships I have, and the memories they shared were from the past ten or fifteen years. The next ten or fifteen, Lord willing, can be just as rich. It's really meaningful\u2014and then, it's added so much\u2014that's the joy in life, what God gives us through people.\r\n\r\nDave (17:24):\r\n\r\nHey, let me just pause and say this: our financial partners are the heartbeat of this ministry. When you join this monthly giving community, you're not just donating, you're building something eternal.\r\n\r\nAnn (17:36):\r\n\r\nAnd we'd be so honored to have you on the journey with us. We really would. So here's the question: \u201cWill you join us today?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (17:45):\r\n\r\nI hope your answer is \u201cYes.\u201d And if it is, go to FamilyLifeToday.com. You can click the \u201cDonate\u201d button right there, and become a part of the Monthly Partner Program.\r\n\r\nAnn (17:58):\r\n\r\nTalk about being a \u201cconsumer friend\u201d in that consumer friendship. What's that mean?\r\n\r\nDrew (18:03):\r\n\r\nYou contrast \u201cconsumer friendship\u201d with we could call \u201ccommitted\u201d or \u201ccovenantal friendships.\u201d David and Jonathan make a covenant of friendship. I don't think that we all need to make covenants of friendship, but it gets at something that's a contrast with how friendship is normally experienced by some people. \r\n\r\nConsumer friendship is the idea that your friendship is there to be used by you. When you want something from them, you can go to them. And so people\u2014networking is huge today\u2014but people can turn friendship and make networking and friendship the same thing in their life. They just see everyone as a potential for something else\u2014using [them] for a good time\u2014and when things get hard in that person's life, then, they don't show up. They aren't going to call them, because they're not deep and connected; and they haven't had a relationship that would be comfortable stepping in [during] hard times or suffering.\r\n\r\n(18:51) That's consumer friendship. It's like consuming goods: when they're useful, you have them; when they're not, you discard them and move on. Proverbs talks about that, talking about how often people treat people with money. The rich have many friends; the poor have their friends even leave them That's consumer friendship. \r\n\r\nCovenantal or committed friendship means, like Proverbs 17 says, \"A friend loves at all times, and a brother's born for adversity.\" Even in the hardship, you don't forsake your friend. In fact, Proverbs says, \"Do not forsake your friend or your father's friend.\" In the context of that Proverb\u2014calamity coming into someone's life\u2014your friend loses his job; gets diagnosed with cancer; sinks into depression. What do you do? Well, Proverbs says the one thing you can't do is forsake them; you move close. You express solidarity with them in that. \r\n\r\nI remember I was going through a really hard time, at one point. In fact, Dane knew I was going through this hard time; and he just showed up one day. \r\n\r\nAnn (19:52):\r\n\r\n\u2014at your door?\r\n\r\nDrew (19:53):\r\n\r\nWell, actually, at my church. It was Sunday\u2014drove by\u2014and stood next to me or stood behind me, gave me a hug; and then, we had lunch; and then, he went back\u2014because he knew I was having a hard time in life. He just showed up\u2014I'll never forget that\u2014deeply meaningful. That's a covenantal friend; that's a committed friend. In the good times and the bad times, expressing love, and solidarity, and staying with that person. \r\n\r\nJob's friends are a bad example in so many ways, but they had a decent start. It looks: they showed up; they sat with him; they wept with him.\r\n\r\nDave (20:24):\r\n\r\nAnd then, they said things.\r\n\r\nDrew (20:26):\r\n\r\nAnd then, maybe, don't say things if you don't know what to say.\r\n\r\nDave (20:30):\r\n\r\nAs I'm thinking of a husband and wife\u2014because you talk about you and Christina are great friends; Ann and I are great friends\u2014how do you build a great friendship in your marriage? Because not a lot of marriages have that.\r\n\r\nDrew (20:42):\r\n\r\nRight; yes. Maybe, a first step is, if you recognize you don't have it, just acknowledge that together; and speak openly about what you wish it could be. Own your own shortcomings in that. I think just thinking about the marks of friendship, and what real friendship is: just apply that directly to marriage. Think:\r\n\r\n\u201cHave I been expressing affection?\u201d \r\n\r\n\u201cDo I let Christina know that I love her? Do I show that with my words, my actions; how I care for her?\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cDoes she know, in her bones, that I love her?\u201d and \u201cIt's obvious that I do?\u201d Not: Sometimes, [she\u2019s] like, \"I know he loves me, but it's like\u2026\u201d [She needs] to feel it; it needs to be obvious. \r\n\r\n(21:31) Communication [and] transparency is a mark of friendship\u2014speaking openly and honestly about our own weaknesses and shortcomings\u20141 John 1:7 calls us to walk in the light. \u201cWalk in the light as He is in the light,\u201d\u2014that's not walking in perfection\u2014the context of that is actually just walking in honesty; it's coming out of hiding. \u201cIs there some sin in your life, or collection of sins, or struggles that you have that you don't bring to your spouse?\u201d Walking in the light is coming out of hiding, in the light. What \r\n\r\n1 John 1:7 says is out there: \u201cReal forgiveness, felt forgiveness. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness; and real friendship\/fellowship with one another.\u201d \r\n\r\nFelt forgiveness, real friendship in marriage, happens through walking in the light together\u2014confessing sin, being open, knowing each other\u2014not treating each other as a consumer either, but a committed covenantal friend, caring for each other and serving in those ways. \r\n\r\n(22:22) Jesus is the perfect friend: \u201cGreater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.\u201d Love is affectionate, committed, self-sacrificial. Serve in love; confess and apologize when you don't; be quick to apologize, quick to repent; quick to forgive\u2014I could go on and on\u2014all these things that friendship needs, need to be in there as well. Taking the first step is owning your own part of that and seeing that you're the problem.\r\n\r\nAnn (22:42):\r\n\r\nI like thinking about that conversation with a husband or wife, of saying, \"I'd love us to be even better friends. What do you think that could look like?\u201d or \u201cWhat could we do to become better friends?\" And I would add one more: \u201cHave fun together.\u201d \r\n\r\nDrew: Totally. \r\n\r\nAnn: You and Christina are about to have a few days together of just having fun. \r\n\r\nDrew: Right. \r\n\r\nAnn: And that is another thing\u2014it's a magnet\u2014it draws you close to one another. \r\n\r\nThat's fun; this has been great! \r\n\r\nDave (23:07):\r\n\r\nI would just end with this: listening to what you just said, Drew, and reading your book, I am such a blessed man; because my best friend is sitting right here.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:17):\r\n\r\nYou're my best friend, too! \r\n\r\nDave (23:21):\r\n\r\nYou are such a great friend.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:21):\r\n\r\nYou are, too. \r\n\r\nDave (23:22):\r\n\r\nYou love me; you speak truth to me. I am so thankful. \r\n\r\nI'm sure you feel the same way about Christina. Not all men or spouses get that.\r\n\r\nDrew (23:31):\r\n\r\nRight.\r\n\r\nAnn: But you can get it.\r\n\r\nDave (23:32):\r\n\r\nIt's a lot of work.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:32):\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019re not there, you can get it. \r\n\r\nDrew: You can get there. \r\n\r\nDave (23:35):\r\n\r\nGod wants you to have it; but it's on us to pursue it, and do the marks of friendship that you talk about.\r\n\r\nDrew (23:42):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nDave (23:47):\r\n\r\nWhat a great day with Drew Hunter, talking about friendship, and community, and the power of relationships. By the way, the book, again, is called Made for Friendship: The Relationship that Halves Our Sorrows and Doubles Our Joys. \r\n\r\nAnn (23:59):\r\n\r\nDoesn\u2019t it make you want to have more friends?\r\n\r\nDave (24:01):\r\n\r\nI got enough. You just need a few; you don't need a thousand. \r\n\r\nAnn (24:06):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s true, but it's just so good. \r\n\r\nYou can get your copy by just clicking the link in the show notes at FamilyLifeToday.com.\r\n\r\nDave (24:13):\r\n\r\nI'll tell you what\u2014a lot of people don't know this\u2014but we're on YouTube.\r\n\r\nAnn (24:16):\r\n\r\nI love watching YouTube clips. You get a lot more out of it, I think, when you're watching people. \r\n\r\nDave (24:21):\r\n\r\nThe next generation's probably going to watch it rather than just listen to it. You can do either\/or. If you want to watch and enjoy it\u2014YouTube.com\/FamilyLife\u2014just go to YouTube.com\/FamilyLife. Or if you're a big YouTube person, just go to YouTube and type in FamilyLife\u2014one word.\r\n\r\nAnn (24:37):\r\n\r\nI put three words on there, and it still worked: FamilyLife Today.\r\n\r\nDave (24:45):\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nCelebrating 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?\r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2026 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife.com\n","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/318346","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=318346"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/295627"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=318346"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=318346"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=318346"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=318346"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=318346"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=318346"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}