{"id":318336,"date":"2026-04-14T04:38:19","date_gmt":"2026-04-14T08:38:19","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/faith-and-work-why-your-secular-job-is-instantly-sacred-jordan-raynor\/"},"modified":"2026-04-14T04:38:21","modified_gmt":"2026-04-14T08:38:21","slug":"faith-and-work-why-your-secular-job-is-instantly-sacred-jordan-raynor","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/faith-and-work-why-your-secular-job-is-instantly-sacred-jordan-raynor\/","title":{"rendered":"Faith and Work: Why Your \u201cSecular\u201d Job Is Instantly Sacred&#8211;Jordan Raynor"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Faith and work collide in the places you actually live: locker rooms, Zoom calls, minivans, and fluorescent-lit offices where calling can feel like drudgery. Jordan Raynor joins Dave and Ann Wilson to blow up the sacred\/secular divide, trace God\u2019s first commission from Genesis 1 into your Monday grind, and show why changing diapers, running routes, closing deals, or pulling espresso shots can all be strategic, eternal work\u2014without changing your job title.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Jordan Raynor joins Dave &#038; Ann Wilson on FamilyLife Today, dismantling the sacred\/secular myth of faith and work, to show how every job carries eternal purpose.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":295627,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/b3c1b101-97cd-4925-b205-b41a011e57e2\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:24:55","filesize":"22.85M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2843],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[11475],"cwp_profile":[10887],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-318336","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-workaholism","podcast_series-faith-work-jordan-raynor","cwp_profile-jordon-raynor","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Cover_1024x1024.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/318336\/faith-and-work-why-your-secular-job-is-instantly-sacred-jordan-raynor","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/318336\/faith-and-work-why-your-secular-job-is-instantly-sacred-jordan-raynor","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"wlxYfXATfE\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/faith-and-work-why-your-secular-job-is-instantly-sacred-jordan-raynor\/\">Faith and Work: Why Your \u201cSecular\u201d Job Is Instantly Sacred&#8211;Jordan Raynor<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/faith-and-work-why-your-secular-job-is-instantly-sacred-jordan-raynor\/embed\/#?secret=wlxYfXATfE\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Faith and Work: Why Your \u201cSecular\u201d Job Is Instantly Sacred&#8211;Jordan Raynor&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"wlxYfXATfE\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["b3c1b101-97cd-4925-b205-b41a011e57e2"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/b3c1b101-97cd-4925-b205-b41a011e57e2\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:24:55"],"filesize":["22.85M"],"_thumbnail_id":["295627"],"show_notes":["\n<ul>\n<li>Get Jordan's book <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/the-word-before-work\/\">\"The Word Before Work\"<\/a> on our shop.<\/li>\n<li>Learn more about Jordan at his website <a href=\"https:\/\/www.jordanraynor.com\/\">jordanraynor.com<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Save the date! Blended & Blessed\u00ae is happening April 18, 2026. Find details at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.blendedandblessed.com\/\">blendedandblessed.com<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr>\n<ul>\n<li>Thanks to the Christian Standard Bible for sponsoring this episode. Learn more at <a href=\"https:\/\/CSBible.com\">CSBible.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Follow us on all social platforms: <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/familylifeministry\">Facebook<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/familylife.today\/\">Instagram<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLSzse1nmlqbLhDx5FpGVDgLmxy1rmQBau\">YouTube<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from our podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Download <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n"],"transcript_content":["\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nWhy Your \u201cSecular\u201d Job Is Instantly Sacred\r\n\r\nGuest:Jordan Raynor\r\n\r\nFrom the series:Faith and Work (Day 1 of 2)\r\n\r\nAir date:April 14, 2026\r\n\r\nJordan (00:04):\r\n\r\nI think if you\u2019d ask Jesus about His spiritual life, He\u2019d look at you like you had three heads, and say, \u201cYou\u2019re talking about my life?\u201d I hear a lot of people use this term \u201csecular work.\u201d Here\u2019s the deal: secular literally means \u201cwithout God.\u201d That\u2019s what it means. If you are a Christ-follower, you believe that the one true God literally dwells inside of you everywhere you go, and so the only thing you have to do to instantly make your \u201csecular\u201d work place sacred is walk through the front door or log on to Zoom.\r\n\r\nDave (00:39):\r\n\r\nWelcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:45):\r\n\r\nAnd I'm Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.\r\n\r\nDave (00:59):\r\n\r\nSo early, in the first five years of being a Detroit Lions chaplain\u2014I don\u2019t know if you even knew this\u2014there was a belief among owners in the league that teams should get rid of their chaplains, because chaplains are telling their players that what they do as an athlete and their work is not important. Only God is important.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:19):\r\n\r\nI remember this, because you were worried, and you were also frustrated because it was a misbelief.\r\n\r\nDave (01:25):\r\n\r\nYes, but it sort of swept across the league, and it\u2019s a league of copycats. I remember thinking, \u201cThey are thinking if you have a spiritual influence in your locker room, they\u2019re going to tell your players playing football isn\u2019t important. Only worshipping Jesus and church is important.\u201d I was like, \u201cThat is not what the Bible says! Work really matters.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (01:47):\r\n\r\nWell, think about the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy and peace. An owner is probably thinking \u201cThis is what we do not want, somebody that has those principles in the locker room.\u201d So you can understand their fear, but they don\u2019t get it.\r\n\r\nDave (02:00):\r\n\r\nThey don\u2019t get it, and we\u2019re going to get it today, because I think that belief isn\u2019t just at one time in the NFL. It\u2019s all over the place. We have Jordan Raynor back. Welcome back to FamilyLife Today.\r\n\r\nJordan (02:10):\r\n\r\nDave and Ann, I love hanging out with you guys. Thanks for having me back.\r\n\r\nDave (02:13):\r\n\r\nI didn\u2019t know this: you\u2019ve written seven books in three years.\r\n\r\nJordan (02:17):\r\n\r\nSomething like that.\r\n\r\nDave (02:18):\r\n\r\nSo you like to work.\r\n\r\nJordan (02:19):\r\n\r\nI love to work! You have to, to write a book called The Word before Work.\r\n\r\nAnn (02:24):\r\n\r\nThe Word before Work. What a great title!\r\n\r\nDave (02:27):\r\n\r\nA Monday Through Friday Devotional to Help You Find Eternal Purpose in Your Daily Work. I don\u2019t know if I\u2019ve met a person more passionate than you.\r\n\r\nAnn (02:35)\r\n\r\n\u2014on this topic.\r\n\r\nDave (02:36):\r\n\r\nYes, and your energy, but man, when you bring up the topic of work and God\u2019s perspective, you light up. Why?\r\n\r\nJordan (02:42):\r\n\r\nI spent the first ten years of my career as a tech entrepreneur; and about halfway through that journey I was in the process of selling my second company, trying to figure out what I was going to do next. When you sell two companies, the natural thing is to go start a third. That was the plan. \r\n\r\nWell, one Sunday we went to church, and we had a guest preacher preach a sermon I think most Christians have heard before\u2014the sermon that made me feel so guilty about wanting to go start another business\u2014when there was a need for people to move to mud huts 5,000 miles away from home to \u201cmake disciples of all nations.\u201d\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nDave (03:18):\r\n\r\nRight, right.\r\n\r\nJordan (03:18):\r\n\r\nSo my wife and I felt this tremendous guilt; and we started praying about, \u201cAlright, maybe there\u2019s another path. Path one is go start another business, but maybe we need to be going down path two and go start a church.\u201d \r\n\r\nWe\u2019re praying about these two paths. I\u2019ll never forget: one Sunday after church I had this godly mentor of mine pull me aside. He said, \u201cHey, I hear you\u2019re thinking about planting a church.\u201d I\u2019m thinking, \u201cThis guy\u2019s going to pat me on the back, \u2018Way to go!\u2019 Maybe, write me a check,\u201d\u2014I don\u2019t know; whatever. He just looked me square in the eye, and said, \u201cYeah, I have to be honest. That sounds really dumb for you.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: That\u2019s what he said?\r\n\r\nJordan: Yes, that\u2019s what he said.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014\u201c\u2026for you.\u201d\r\n\r\nJordan: \u2014\u201c\u2026for you.\u201d  He said, \u201cJordan, you\u2019re a talented entrepreneur. You\u2019ve created a lot of jobs. You\u2019ve served your employees and your investors really well, and I\u2019ve seen you come fully alive when you do that work. Why in the world do you think you have to go plant a church in order to do ministry? Don\u2019t you get that your work as an entrepreneur is ministry?!\u201d I looked at this guy like he had three heads; I said, \u201cI have no idea what you\u2019re talking about.\u201d\r\n\r\n(04:06) He said, \u201cHere\u2019s what I want you to do. With this conversation in the background of your mind, I want you to go reread Genesis 1, which you\u2019ve probably read 200 times. In the context of this conversation, tell me what you find.\u201d What I found changed my life forever. I saw that, long before God reveals to us that He is holy or omnipotent or loving, He tells us that He is a God Who works, a God Who is productive, a God Who creates. \r\n\r\nAnd then, fast forward to Genesis 1:28, long before the Great Commission, we find the very first commission to humankind\u2014which P.S. has never been rescinded, even [after] sin\u2014to fill the earth and subdue it, to take the raw materials of creation and just make it more fruitful for others\u2019 benefit and enjoyment. So I didn\u2019t go start a church\u2014spoiler alert\u2014but that message changed my life, and it\u2019s why I\u2019m so passionate about it today.\r\n\r\nDave: Wow.\r\n\r\nAnn (05:14):\r\n\r\nSo go back to that Genesis 1, to subdue the earth. What does that mean, because we\u2019ve all read that Scripture, but not all of us have taken it to that point.\r\n\r\nJordan (05:24):\r\n\r\nYes. So there are a lot of components of this first commission. First is \u201cBe fruitful and increase in number.\u201d We know what that means: have lots of babies, fill the maternity ward. Then, you get to \u201cfill the earth\u201d\u2014this is different\u2014most scholars agree this is not just \u201chave babies\u201d; it\u2019s to create culture. We treat the sixth day as the end of creation. Day six was the beginning of creation; it\u2019s when God passed the baton to us, and told us to fill the earth, like He did. \r\n\r\nThen, you skip down to this word, \u201csubdue,\u201d and this is where things get really interesting. \u201cSubdue the earth,\u201d what does that mean? Wayne Grudem, famous theologian, editor of the ESV Bible\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (05:59):\r\n\r\nWe've had him on.\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nJordan (06:01):\r\n\r\n\u2014Wayne\u2019s great. He says that subdue literally means \u201cto make the earth more useful for human beings\u2019 benefit and enjoyment.\u201d Isn\u2019t that what players in the NFL are doing every single day, making this world more useful for human beings\u2019 enjoyment? Doing it in a God-honoring way, obviously. \r\n\r\nAnn (06:21):\r\n\r\nMost people would say \u201cNo,\u201d but yes, the enjoyment\u2014\r\n\r\nJordan (06:23):\r\n\r\nBut Dave Wilson would say, \u201cYes!\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (06:25):\r\n\r\nIt wasn\u2019t really enjoyable in Detroit. \r\n\r\nJordan: That\u2019s right, that\u2019s right!\r\n\r\nDave: You sort of have to win to be\u2014but you\u2019re right; it\u2019s entertainment.\r\n\r\nJordan (06:32):\r\n\r\nBut this is what we\u2019re doing every day. We are imaging our heavenly Father, Who first and foremost, before He shows up as a Preacher, shows up as a Creator, and are taking this world and making it more useful for our fellow image-bearers. That\u2019s the very thing we were created to do. Keep in mind, we\u2019re still in Genesis 1. This is prior to sin entering the world. Sin comes on the scene in Genesis 3, and work becomes difficult.\r\n\r\nBut even after that, even after work is cursed, God still reiterates the first commission, after sin, over and over and over again. In Genesis 9, after the flood, first words to Noah: \u201cFill the earth,\u201d again. It made the Ten Commandments, for crying out loud. Yes, the fourth command is a command to Sabbath and rest; but it\u2019s also a reminder that we\u2019re called to work six days a week. Work is God\u2019s first gift to humankind.\r\n\r\nDave (07:27):\r\n\r\nSo where do we get this idea?\u2014and it's a prevalent idea that spiritual work is better and more important.\r\n\r\nJordan (07:35):\r\n\r\nI think there are a couple of roots to this. One is this false divide between the spiritual and the material. The word, \u201cspiritual,\u201d doesn\u2019t appear in the Old Testament. Do you know why? Because all of life is spiritual!\r\n\r\nI think if you\u2019d ask Jesus about His spiritual life, He\u2019d look at you like you had three heads, and say, \u201cYou\u2019re talking about my life?\u201d I hear a lot of people use this term \u201csecular work.\u201d Here\u2019s the deal: \u201csecular\u201d literally means \u201cwithout God\u201d; that\u2019s what it means. If you are a Christ-follower, you believe that the one true God literally dwells inside of you, everywhere you go, and so the only thing you have to do to instantly make your \u201csecular\u201d work place sacred is walk through the front door or log on to Zoom.\r\n\r\nAnn (08:19):\r\n\r\nThat's so good, Jordan. \r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nJordan: That\u2019s it; instantly sacred.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes, you\u2019ve just brought God.\r\n\r\nJordan (08:21):\r\n\r\nEverywhere you walk is sacred, so that\u2019s number one. I think the source of this is this false divide between the spiritual and the material. \r\n\r\nI think the second one, and this is going to open up a bigger can of worms I\u2019m not sure you guys want to really unpack; but in the last 200 years of church history, for the first time in church history, we have treated the Great Commission, to make disciples, as the exclusive commission of followers of Jesus. It is very new in church history. I have many, many theologians, who have said, \u201cPrior to 200 years ago, nobody interpreted Matthew 28 as the exclusive mission of the church.\u201d \r\n\r\nIs the Great Commission commanded of every follower of Jesus?\u2014absolutely!\u2014non-negotiable. All of us are called to make disciples. But we have a dual commission. We are called to the first commission, to fill the earth and subdue it, and the Great Commission as we go about that first commission. \r\n\r\n(09:15) And oh, by the way, in our increasingly post-Christian context, guess what? It\u2019s not pastors and full-time missionaries who are making the most disciples. It is mere Christians\u2014entrepreneurs, baristas and accountants\u2014who are working alongside people, who are never going to darken the doors of a church; so we have to bring the church to them. \r\n\r\nSo ironically, by making the Great Commission the only commission, we are becoming less effective at the Great Commission, because we\u2019re making people feel guilty about going to work in the very places most likely to carry out the Great Commission and make disciples.\r\n\r\nDave (09:50):\r\n\r\nJordan, I\u2019d love to hear your comments on this. When you talk about the Great Commission, I remember in seminary, so 20, 30 years ago, maybe 40, [Laughter] studying Matthew 28, and for the first time realizing that the word \u201cgo\u201d is actually a participle. Again, if you don\u2019t know English, you think \u201cWell, so what\u2019s the big deal.\u201d Most of us think, \u201cOh, participle. That\u2019s an \u2018-ing\u2019 word.\u201d So what he\u2019s really saying is what you just said. \u201cAs you are going, make disciples.\u201d So what you just said is literally the call of Jesus on our lives; the Great Commission means: \u201cWherever I send you, make disciples.\u201d\r\n\r\nJordan (10:29):\r\n\r\nYes, 100 percent. Most biblical scholars that I\u2019ve read agree that the NIV translation, \u201cGo and make disciples,\u201d is a really poor translation of Jesus\u2019 words in the original Greek. Dramatic ramifications for you; because as you said, Dave, the better translation is: \u201cAs you are going, make disciples.\u201d And by the way, Jesus Himself didn\u2019t go more than 200 miles away from His home town, and He was the greatest disciple-maker of all time. So we\u2019re telling our people that we have to go away from our current vocation and location to make disciples? That\u2019s a slap in Jesus\u2019s face, because Jesus didn\u2019t go very far; and He changed the world forever with the gospel of the Kingdom.\r\n\r\nRon Deal (11:12):\r\n\r\nHey, friends; Ron Deal here, Director of FamilyLife Blended. Did you know Blended &amp;amp; Blessed\u2014the only worldwide livestream designed for couples and blended families\u2014is free this year? Saturday, April 18, we're going to be live in Oklahoma City. If you show up there, we're going to charge you for lunch. But other than that, it is free to livestream. Churches can bring a group of couples together, and enjoy the day, absolutely free. \r\n\r\nGayla Grace is going to be with us; Davey and Kristi Blackburn; Cheryl Shumake\u2019s going to be with us; Kathi Lipp; and Bryan Goins, our emcee. It's going to be a wonderful day; I hope you can join us. Learn more and get the link in the show notes at FamilyLifeToday.com.\r\n\r\nAnn (11:57):\r\n\r\nEspecially, as Americans, we work to retire. Work is like, \u201cOoh, I have to go to work.\u201d The way you\u2019re living feels like, \u201cOh! I get to go to work.\u201d We have this mentality that work is this terrible thing; and it sounds like you\u2019re saying, \u201cNo, work is the gift that God has given us.\u201d\r\n\r\nJordan (12:15):\r\n\r\nYes, and listen, we have to be careful here. The three of us love what we do.\r\n\r\nAnn (12:19):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nJordan (12:20):\r\n\r\nI have a lot of friends who don\u2019t. They feel more of the effects of the curse in this specific area than we do, so I try to be\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (12:30):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s hard; it\u2019s toil.\r\n\r\nJordan (12:30):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s hard, it\u2019s toil; and listen, that\u2019s the reality. What\u2019s been lost, though, in the conversation is that there\u2019s still creational goodness in all good, God-glorifying work. All work was created to be perfectly good. And oh, by the way, one day it\u2019s all going to be perfect once again. \r\n\r\nAny time I have a buddy who hates his job, or her job, I point them to Isaiah 65. It\u2019s one of those beautiful promises of Scripture. Isaiah is talking about the new earth and says explicitly\u2014I think, in verse 17, he says\u2014\u201cSee, I will create new heavens and the new earth.\u201d Then he goes on, and says, \u201cMy chosen people will build houses and live in them. They will long enjoy the work of their hands. They will not labor in vain.\u201d \r\n\r\n(13:28) Contrary to this American caricature of heaven as a glorified retirement home, our eternal reality, on a new material earth, that is not exclusively \u201cspiritual\u201d contains work. What that means is, if you hate your job today, look forward, expectantly, to the day when you will long enjoy the work of your hands. And if you love your job, may that fuel your anticipation for eternity. Heaven isn\u2019t boring. Heaven is the most epic adventure of all time, because we will be ruling and reigning forever and ever\u2014Revelation 22:5\u2014with Jesus the King. And that includes good, perfect work that we will long enjoy. \r\n\r\nThose who claim that saving souls is all that matters, that\u2019s a slap in the face of Jesus; because Jesus came to make everything new. The curse of Genesis 3 broke the spiritual and the material realms. Unless Jesus returns and restores every part of this material world, this earth\u2014and makes it like new again\u2014then His redemption is incomplete. But His redemption isn\u2019t incomplete; we know that He\u2019s won back every square inch of creation. \r\n\r\n(14:25) That gives value and meaning to the material things that we do today\u2014because He has redeemed this earth; He has redeemed our souls\u2014so working with both souls and the material world, whether you\u2019re working grinding coffee beans, or making laptops, or creating spreadsheets, whatever it is\u2014that is good work because God never once renounced His claim that this material world, in the words of Genesis 1, is \u201cgood.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (14:46):\r\n\r\nIt's interesting. That leads me to ask this question: \u201cIf I'm a Christian and I understand this right perspective, how does it change the way I work?\u201d\r\n\r\nBecause when the NFL was sort of saying\u2014I had a head coach, who came to chapel\u2014he disagreed with that idea, but he wasn't sure. He said to me, \"Can you speak to this?\u201d I did a chapel on it; and he said, \"You got to do that chapel every year just to remind us.\" One of the points I made is: \u201cHere's what's going on in the league. There are owners saying, \u2018We don't want Christian players on our team, because they're going to care more about God than what they do on the field.\u2019\u201d I said, \"If they understand what a Christian player understands about work, they should be begging for you to be on their team.\"\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n(15:31) I go off; I'm like, \"You should be the hardest working people in the locker room. You should be there first; you should leave last,\"\u2014\"Why?\u201d\u2014\"You're not playing for an owner; you're not playing for a paycheck. You're playing for the King of Kings. He's giving you a gift; He's giving you work. It matters. Your intensity should be unbelievable. You should be the most caring person in the locker room; you're loving people. It should be like, \u2018I don't know what these people are, but I want those kind of guys in the locker room; because that's how Christian workers work.\u2019\" Am I right?\r\n\r\nJordan (15:55):\r\n\r\nOne hundred percent. If you get this high-level concept\u2014that work is a gift from God, a good gift; and whatever work you\u2019re doing today, so long as it\u2019s not explicitly out of line with God\u2019s commands, is good\u2014then, the practical out-workings of this are endless.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nJordan: You pointed to excellence. We claim to be image-bearers of God. \r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nJordan: Look outside your window: \u201cHow does God work?\u201d \u201cHow does God create?\u201d I was just in Zion National Park. \u201cExcellent\u201d falls so far short of describing the God of the Bible, but that\u2019s what we can ascribe to. So if you believe your work matters, and you\u2019re an image-bearer of God, you\u2019re going to work with excellence. You\u2019re going to work hard. You\u2019re going to work with care for people beyond their productivity. \r\n\r\nYou\u2019re also going to work with rest, because you know that the God of the universe loves you on your most and your least productive day, and that you can rest and still find favor as His child. I could go on and on; but when you get this, when you understand that your work matters to God, the practical outpourings of what that means shape, at a very practical level, how you do your work. That\u2019s why I wrote what I think is the first daily Monday-through-Friday devotional.\r\n\r\nAnn (17:06):\r\n\r\n\u2014which is really cool.\r\n\r\nJordan (17:07):\r\n\r\nYes, to help people connect the Word to their work, because the implications of this are legion.\r\n\r\nDave (17:13):\r\n\r\nI did a whole week of your devotional last night. I did!\r\n\r\nJordan (17:18):\r\n\r\nMe, too; I was doing prep. \r\n\r\nDave: I bet you were. I wanted to read through what you wrote. \r\n\r\nI remember the first year we started our church in Michigan, I was at a restaurant near where we started it. The owner comes up; I didn\u2019t know the guy. He said, \u201cHey, this is my restaurant. Can I talk to you a minute?\u201d I think, \u201cOh, no.\u201d He pulls me sort of aside, and says, \u201cHey, I heard you\u2019re Dave. You have this church,\u201d\u2014blah, blah, blah. He says, \u201cOne of your guys\u201d\u2014he\u2019s a high school kid\u2014\"works for me as a busboy.\u201d \r\n\r\n(18:01) And then, I think, \u201cOh, what did he do?\u201d And he goes, \u201cHe is the best worker I\u2019ve ever hired.\u201d I said, \u201cWhat?!\u201d I didn\u2019t know this kid; but he said, \u201cHe shows up early. He cares for people. He goes way out of his way. He\u2019s so caring; he\u2019s a model.\u201d I looked at him, like, \u201cWell, that\u2019s great. Why are you telling me that?\u201d He said, \u201cAre all your people like that?!\u201d I wanted to say, \u201cYes\u201d; but of course, not. I thought, \u201cWhat a picture of the way a Christian works in what many people would call a secular job.\u201d A busboy\u2014that doesn\u2019t matter\u2014to him, it mattered.\r\n\r\nJordan (18:23):\r\n\r\nOne hundred percent. \r\n\r\nThere\u2019s lots of talk about exile right now. In the West, we feel increasingly like we\u2019re in exile. I Peter is a letter to exiles; and what does Peter say in I Peter 2? He says, \u201cDo good. Live good lives amongst the pagans, not retreating to your Christian subculture, engaging the city, rushing into dark places, going and working in that industry that you think is god-forsaken, for the glory of God; so that people could see your excellence, and your love, and your genuine care. They get glimpses\u2014you\u2019re scratching off little glimpses\u2014of the eternal Kingdom of God and the God Who is King of all things.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (19:05):\r\n\r\nThis is so good; and now, I\u2019m thinking, as a mom, of the stay-at-home moms or dads, who are feeling like, \u201cI want to get back to work, but my husband and I have committed to being home with the kids.\u201d I remember that stage, when our kids were little. I felt like, \u201cI have no life; I have no. I have no value\u201d; because so much of my value was in my work. I was trying to get a perspective of: \u201cGod, I know this is a gift. I know You\u2019ve given me these kids, and they\u2019re a gift to us; but it feels like it\u2019s nothing.\u201d Jordan, what do you say to those parents who are home?\r\n\r\nJordan (19:39):\r\n\r\nI\u2019ve been so encouraged that those parents have found this devotional book to be helpful; because I make very clear in the book: \u201cListen, we define work as the thing we get paid to do. That is not how God defines work. God defines work so broadly that His definition of work in Exodus 20:10 includes animals working; that\u2019s called work.\u201d I think it\u2019s more helpful\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: What do you mean by that? Explain that. \r\n\r\nJordan: In The Ten Commandments, we\u2019ll get to the Fourth Commandment; and He issues the Sabbath command. God says, \u201cLet the animals rest from their work.\u201d It\u2019s the same word described as human labor. So this term is very broad in Scripture. To me, that\u2019s very encouraging; because I think we can define work very broadly as, not the thing we get paid to do; but basically, the opposite of leisure and rest.\r\n\r\n(20:32) And so you, parent\u2014you're a stay-at-home mom; stay-at-home dad\u2014you're doing the work that God has created you to do in this season. And that work is just as important. Now, society's not going to value that work very much; but the God of the universe does. Look at Mary; I think Mary's all the evidence that you need. Elizabeth is all the evidence that you need. Exodus, Chapter 1, which is all about mothers and women is all the evidence you need that God calls that work of parenting very much work.\r\n\r\nDave (21:05):\r\n\r\nWere you able to grab that perspective when you were a stay-at-home mom?\r\n\r\nAnn (21:07):\r\n\r\nYes. Well, I can remember being at home; and I can also remember cleaning toilets, like, \u201cThis is my life, now. This is it.\u201d But I  remember praying, \u201cLord, do You see what I\u2019m doing down here? This is nothing.\u201d I felt like God was saying, \u201cThis is a worship moment, Ann. Every one of these moments, as you\u2019re wiping bottoms, and you\u2019re wiping noses, and you\u2019re cleaning toilets\u2014and no one sees and no one is applauding\u2014I\u2019m applauding every one of those little and big tasks. No matter if you\u2019re speaking before thousands, or if you\u2019re all by yourself, cleaning your toilet, I see it; and We\u2019re applauding it in the heavenly realm.\u201d\r\n\r\nJordan (21:42):\r\n\r\nPsalm 37:23 is one of my favorite verses. It says, \u201cThe Lord directs the steps of the godly, and He delights in every detail\u2014 \r\n\r\nAnn (21:44):\r\n\r\n\u2014every.\r\n\r\nJordan (21:45):\r\n\r\n\u2014of their lives,\u201d\u2014not just when you\u2019re sharing the gospel, not just when you\u2019re donating money to church; although, He certainly smiles upon those things\u2014every time you change a diaper with excellence and love, in accordance with God\u2019s commands; every time you make a latte, and create a spreadsheet, and land a deal, with excellence and love, in accordance with God\u2019s commands, our heavenly Father sees it; He delights in it; and His delight is eternal. \r\n\r\nHebrews 6:10: \u201cHe will not forget the work that we do for Him. He is not unjust. He will remember it forever. It contributes to His eternal pleasure.\u201d That should fuel our purpose and pleasure in the present.\r\n\r\nDave (22:35):\r\n\r\nI was going to ask you, Jordan, to speak to the person that's struggling with their job; and you just did. I just thought, \u201cThat's what you would say.\u201d I remember, when I was coaching high school football, I'd be walking down the ramp to the high school field. I was just a volunteer coach; but every time I made that walk, I prayed and I remembered what I'm doing here\u2014it isn't trying to win football games\u2014I'm a light for the Kingdom. I'm loving these boys; I'm modeling to them what a man looks like. I'm like, \"I am working unto the Lord, and this is a beautiful thing.\" But I had to remind myself, as I walked, because I get caught up in football; and then\u2014that's good, too, because it's part of the work\u2014but it's like, \u201cNo, this is what I'm about.\u201d\r\n\r\n(23:18) You just did that. I was like, \u201cMan, if somebody's listening,\u201d\u2014it's one of those\u2014\"I'm going to play Jordan's words over again before I go to work today, because I need to be reminded: \u2018It's going to be hard; this is not an easy job, but it matters. God has put me here.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (23:29):\r\n\r\nOr you can get his devotional. \r\n\r\nDave (23:31):\r\n\r\nOr you can get his devotional; read it every day! That\u2019s good.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:33):\r\n\r\nMan, I love Jordan Raynor. He's such a systems guy; he's such a Bible guy. And again, his book is called The Word before Work: A Monday-through-Friday Devotional to Help You Find Eternal Purpose in Your Daily Work. And don't we all need that sometimes? We just need to be reminded: \u201cThis has an eternal purpose, even in the mundane days.\u201d You can find his book at FamilyLifeToday.com; just click the link in the show notes.\r\n\r\nDave (24:07):\r\n\r\nAt FamilyLife, we really believe strong families can change the world. And when you become a FamilyLife Partner, you help make that happen.\r\n\r\nAnn (24:15):\r\n\r\nAnd I don't know if you realize this, but your monthly gift helps us equip marriages and families with biblical tools that they can count on.\r\n\r\nDave (24:23):\r\n\r\nNow, that's a pretty good deal. And we also want to send you exclusive updates; behind-the-scenes access; and an invitation to our Private Partner Community, which is pretty cool. So join us, and let's reach families and marriages together.\r\n\r\nAnn (24:36):\r\n\r\nAnd you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com, and click the \u201cDonate\u201d button to join today.\r\n\r\nDave (24:45):\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nCelebrating 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?\r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2026 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife.com\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2026-04-14.pdf"],"ssp_guid":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/faith-and-work-why-your-secular-job-is-instantly-sacred-jordan-raynor\/"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__video-wrap video{opacity: 1;}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-is-root-container .uagb-block-e11dbe9f{max-width: 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Raynor joins Dave & Ann Wilson on FamilyLife Today, dismantling the sacred\/secular myth of faith and work, to show how every job carries eternal purpose.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"\n<ul>\n<li>Get Jordan's book <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/the-word-before-work\/\">\"The Word Before Work\"<\/a> on our shop.<\/li>\n<li>Learn more about Jordan at his website <a href=\"https:\/\/www.jordanraynor.com\/\">jordanraynor.com<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Save the date! Blended & Blessed\u00ae is happening April 18, 2026. Find details at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.blendedandblessed.com\/\">blendedandblessed.com<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr>\n<ul>\n<li>Thanks to the Christian Standard Bible for sponsoring this episode. Learn more at <a href=\"https:\/\/CSBible.com\">CSBible.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Follow us on all social platforms: <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/familylifeministry\">Facebook<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/familylife.today\/\">Instagram<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLSzse1nmlqbLhDx5FpGVDgLmxy1rmQBau\">YouTube<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from our podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Download <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2026-04-14.pdf","transcript_content":"\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nWhy Your \u201cSecular\u201d Job Is Instantly Sacred\r\n\r\nGuest:Jordan Raynor\r\n\r\nFrom the series:Faith and Work (Day 1 of 2)\r\n\r\nAir date:April 14, 2026\r\n\r\nJordan (00:04):\r\n\r\nI think if you\u2019d ask Jesus about His spiritual life, He\u2019d look at you like you had three heads, and say, \u201cYou\u2019re talking about my life?\u201d I hear a lot of people use this term \u201csecular work.\u201d Here\u2019s the deal: secular literally means \u201cwithout God.\u201d That\u2019s what it means. If you are a Christ-follower, you believe that the one true God literally dwells inside of you everywhere you go, and so the only thing you have to do to instantly make your \u201csecular\u201d work place sacred is walk through the front door or log on to Zoom.\r\n\r\nDave (00:39):\r\n\r\nWelcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:45):\r\n\r\nAnd I'm Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.\r\n\r\nDave (00:59):\r\n\r\nSo early, in the first five years of being a Detroit Lions chaplain\u2014I don\u2019t know if you even knew this\u2014there was a belief among owners in the league that teams should get rid of their chaplains, because chaplains are telling their players that what they do as an athlete and their work is not important. Only God is important.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:19):\r\n\r\nI remember this, because you were worried, and you were also frustrated because it was a misbelief.\r\n\r\nDave (01:25):\r\n\r\nYes, but it sort of swept across the league, and it\u2019s a league of copycats. I remember thinking, \u201cThey are thinking if you have a spiritual influence in your locker room, they\u2019re going to tell your players playing football isn\u2019t important. Only worshipping Jesus and church is important.\u201d I was like, \u201cThat is not what the Bible says! Work really matters.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (01:47):\r\n\r\nWell, think about the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy and peace. An owner is probably thinking \u201cThis is what we do not want, somebody that has those principles in the locker room.\u201d So you can understand their fear, but they don\u2019t get it.\r\n\r\nDave (02:00):\r\n\r\nThey don\u2019t get it, and we\u2019re going to get it today, because I think that belief isn\u2019t just at one time in the NFL. It\u2019s all over the place. We have Jordan Raynor back. Welcome back to FamilyLife Today.\r\n\r\nJordan (02:10):\r\n\r\nDave and Ann, I love hanging out with you guys. Thanks for having me back.\r\n\r\nDave (02:13):\r\n\r\nI didn\u2019t know this: you\u2019ve written seven books in three years.\r\n\r\nJordan (02:17):\r\n\r\nSomething like that.\r\n\r\nDave (02:18):\r\n\r\nSo you like to work.\r\n\r\nJordan (02:19):\r\n\r\nI love to work! You have to, to write a book called The Word before Work.\r\n\r\nAnn (02:24):\r\n\r\nThe Word before Work. What a great title!\r\n\r\nDave (02:27):\r\n\r\nA Monday Through Friday Devotional to Help You Find Eternal Purpose in Your Daily Work. I don\u2019t know if I\u2019ve met a person more passionate than you.\r\n\r\nAnn (02:35)\r\n\r\n\u2014on this topic.\r\n\r\nDave (02:36):\r\n\r\nYes, and your energy, but man, when you bring up the topic of work and God\u2019s perspective, you light up. Why?\r\n\r\nJordan (02:42):\r\n\r\nI spent the first ten years of my career as a tech entrepreneur; and about halfway through that journey I was in the process of selling my second company, trying to figure out what I was going to do next. When you sell two companies, the natural thing is to go start a third. That was the plan. \r\n\r\nWell, one Sunday we went to church, and we had a guest preacher preach a sermon I think most Christians have heard before\u2014the sermon that made me feel so guilty about wanting to go start another business\u2014when there was a need for people to move to mud huts 5,000 miles away from home to \u201cmake disciples of all nations.\u201d\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nDave (03:18):\r\n\r\nRight, right.\r\n\r\nJordan (03:18):\r\n\r\nSo my wife and I felt this tremendous guilt; and we started praying about, \u201cAlright, maybe there\u2019s another path. Path one is go start another business, but maybe we need to be going down path two and go start a church.\u201d \r\n\r\nWe\u2019re praying about these two paths. I\u2019ll never forget: one Sunday after church I had this godly mentor of mine pull me aside. He said, \u201cHey, I hear you\u2019re thinking about planting a church.\u201d I\u2019m thinking, \u201cThis guy\u2019s going to pat me on the back, \u2018Way to go!\u2019 Maybe, write me a check,\u201d\u2014I don\u2019t know; whatever. He just looked me square in the eye, and said, \u201cYeah, I have to be honest. That sounds really dumb for you.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: That\u2019s what he said?\r\n\r\nJordan: Yes, that\u2019s what he said.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014\u201c\u2026for you.\u201d\r\n\r\nJordan: \u2014\u201c\u2026for you.\u201d  He said, \u201cJordan, you\u2019re a talented entrepreneur. You\u2019ve created a lot of jobs. You\u2019ve served your employees and your investors really well, and I\u2019ve seen you come fully alive when you do that work. Why in the world do you think you have to go plant a church in order to do ministry? Don\u2019t you get that your work as an entrepreneur is ministry?!\u201d I looked at this guy like he had three heads; I said, \u201cI have no idea what you\u2019re talking about.\u201d\r\n\r\n(04:06) He said, \u201cHere\u2019s what I want you to do. With this conversation in the background of your mind, I want you to go reread Genesis 1, which you\u2019ve probably read 200 times. In the context of this conversation, tell me what you find.\u201d What I found changed my life forever. I saw that, long before God reveals to us that He is holy or omnipotent or loving, He tells us that He is a God Who works, a God Who is productive, a God Who creates. \r\n\r\nAnd then, fast forward to Genesis 1:28, long before the Great Commission, we find the very first commission to humankind\u2014which P.S. has never been rescinded, even [after] sin\u2014to fill the earth and subdue it, to take the raw materials of creation and just make it more fruitful for others\u2019 benefit and enjoyment. So I didn\u2019t go start a church\u2014spoiler alert\u2014but that message changed my life, and it\u2019s why I\u2019m so passionate about it today.\r\n\r\nDave: Wow.\r\n\r\nAnn (05:14):\r\n\r\nSo go back to that Genesis 1, to subdue the earth. What does that mean, because we\u2019ve all read that Scripture, but not all of us have taken it to that point.\r\n\r\nJordan (05:24):\r\n\r\nYes. So there are a lot of components of this first commission. First is \u201cBe fruitful and increase in number.\u201d We know what that means: have lots of babies, fill the maternity ward. Then, you get to \u201cfill the earth\u201d\u2014this is different\u2014most scholars agree this is not just \u201chave babies\u201d; it\u2019s to create culture. We treat the sixth day as the end of creation. Day six was the beginning of creation; it\u2019s when God passed the baton to us, and told us to fill the earth, like He did. \r\n\r\nThen, you skip down to this word, \u201csubdue,\u201d and this is where things get really interesting. \u201cSubdue the earth,\u201d what does that mean? Wayne Grudem, famous theologian, editor of the ESV Bible\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (05:59):\r\n\r\nWe've had him on.\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nJordan (06:01):\r\n\r\n\u2014Wayne\u2019s great. He says that subdue literally means \u201cto make the earth more useful for human beings\u2019 benefit and enjoyment.\u201d Isn\u2019t that what players in the NFL are doing every single day, making this world more useful for human beings\u2019 enjoyment? Doing it in a God-honoring way, obviously. \r\n\r\nAnn (06:21):\r\n\r\nMost people would say \u201cNo,\u201d but yes, the enjoyment\u2014\r\n\r\nJordan (06:23):\r\n\r\nBut Dave Wilson would say, \u201cYes!\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (06:25):\r\n\r\nIt wasn\u2019t really enjoyable in Detroit. \r\n\r\nJordan: That\u2019s right, that\u2019s right!\r\n\r\nDave: You sort of have to win to be\u2014but you\u2019re right; it\u2019s entertainment.\r\n\r\nJordan (06:32):\r\n\r\nBut this is what we\u2019re doing every day. We are imaging our heavenly Father, Who first and foremost, before He shows up as a Preacher, shows up as a Creator, and are taking this world and making it more useful for our fellow image-bearers. That\u2019s the very thing we were created to do. Keep in mind, we\u2019re still in Genesis 1. This is prior to sin entering the world. Sin comes on the scene in Genesis 3, and work becomes difficult.\r\n\r\nBut even after that, even after work is cursed, God still reiterates the first commission, after sin, over and over and over again. In Genesis 9, after the flood, first words to Noah: \u201cFill the earth,\u201d again. It made the Ten Commandments, for crying out loud. Yes, the fourth command is a command to Sabbath and rest; but it\u2019s also a reminder that we\u2019re called to work six days a week. Work is God\u2019s first gift to humankind.\r\n\r\nDave (07:27):\r\n\r\nSo where do we get this idea?\u2014and it's a prevalent idea that spiritual work is better and more important.\r\n\r\nJordan (07:35):\r\n\r\nI think there are a couple of roots to this. One is this false divide between the spiritual and the material. The word, \u201cspiritual,\u201d doesn\u2019t appear in the Old Testament. Do you know why? Because all of life is spiritual!\r\n\r\nI think if you\u2019d ask Jesus about His spiritual life, He\u2019d look at you like you had three heads, and say, \u201cYou\u2019re talking about my life?\u201d I hear a lot of people use this term \u201csecular work.\u201d Here\u2019s the deal: \u201csecular\u201d literally means \u201cwithout God\u201d; that\u2019s what it means. If you are a Christ-follower, you believe that the one true God literally dwells inside of you, everywhere you go, and so the only thing you have to do to instantly make your \u201csecular\u201d work place sacred is walk through the front door or log on to Zoom.\r\n\r\nAnn (08:19):\r\n\r\nThat's so good, Jordan. \r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nJordan: That\u2019s it; instantly sacred.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes, you\u2019ve just brought God.\r\n\r\nJordan (08:21):\r\n\r\nEverywhere you walk is sacred, so that\u2019s number one. I think the source of this is this false divide between the spiritual and the material. \r\n\r\nI think the second one, and this is going to open up a bigger can of worms I\u2019m not sure you guys want to really unpack; but in the last 200 years of church history, for the first time in church history, we have treated the Great Commission, to make disciples, as the exclusive commission of followers of Jesus. It is very new in church history. I have many, many theologians, who have said, \u201cPrior to 200 years ago, nobody interpreted Matthew 28 as the exclusive mission of the church.\u201d \r\n\r\nIs the Great Commission commanded of every follower of Jesus?\u2014absolutely!\u2014non-negotiable. All of us are called to make disciples. But we have a dual commission. We are called to the first commission, to fill the earth and subdue it, and the Great Commission as we go about that first commission. \r\n\r\n(09:15) And oh, by the way, in our increasingly post-Christian context, guess what? It\u2019s not pastors and full-time missionaries who are making the most disciples. It is mere Christians\u2014entrepreneurs, baristas and accountants\u2014who are working alongside people, who are never going to darken the doors of a church; so we have to bring the church to them. \r\n\r\nSo ironically, by making the Great Commission the only commission, we are becoming less effective at the Great Commission, because we\u2019re making people feel guilty about going to work in the very places most likely to carry out the Great Commission and make disciples.\r\n\r\nDave (09:50):\r\n\r\nJordan, I\u2019d love to hear your comments on this. When you talk about the Great Commission, I remember in seminary, so 20, 30 years ago, maybe 40, [Laughter] studying Matthew 28, and for the first time realizing that the word \u201cgo\u201d is actually a participle. Again, if you don\u2019t know English, you think \u201cWell, so what\u2019s the big deal.\u201d Most of us think, \u201cOh, participle. That\u2019s an \u2018-ing\u2019 word.\u201d So what he\u2019s really saying is what you just said. \u201cAs you are going, make disciples.\u201d So what you just said is literally the call of Jesus on our lives; the Great Commission means: \u201cWherever I send you, make disciples.\u201d\r\n\r\nJordan (10:29):\r\n\r\nYes, 100 percent. Most biblical scholars that I\u2019ve read agree that the NIV translation, \u201cGo and make disciples,\u201d is a really poor translation of Jesus\u2019 words in the original Greek. Dramatic ramifications for you; because as you said, Dave, the better translation is: \u201cAs you are going, make disciples.\u201d And by the way, Jesus Himself didn\u2019t go more than 200 miles away from His home town, and He was the greatest disciple-maker of all time. So we\u2019re telling our people that we have to go away from our current vocation and location to make disciples? That\u2019s a slap in Jesus\u2019s face, because Jesus didn\u2019t go very far; and He changed the world forever with the gospel of the Kingdom.\r\n\r\nRon Deal (11:12):\r\n\r\nHey, friends; Ron Deal here, Director of FamilyLife Blended. Did you know Blended &amp;amp; Blessed\u2014the only worldwide livestream designed for couples and blended families\u2014is free this year? Saturday, April 18, we're going to be live in Oklahoma City. If you show up there, we're going to charge you for lunch. But other than that, it is free to livestream. Churches can bring a group of couples together, and enjoy the day, absolutely free. \r\n\r\nGayla Grace is going to be with us; Davey and Kristi Blackburn; Cheryl Shumake\u2019s going to be with us; Kathi Lipp; and Bryan Goins, our emcee. It's going to be a wonderful day; I hope you can join us. Learn more and get the link in the show notes at FamilyLifeToday.com.\r\n\r\nAnn (11:57):\r\n\r\nEspecially, as Americans, we work to retire. Work is like, \u201cOoh, I have to go to work.\u201d The way you\u2019re living feels like, \u201cOh! I get to go to work.\u201d We have this mentality that work is this terrible thing; and it sounds like you\u2019re saying, \u201cNo, work is the gift that God has given us.\u201d\r\n\r\nJordan (12:15):\r\n\r\nYes, and listen, we have to be careful here. The three of us love what we do.\r\n\r\nAnn (12:19):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nJordan (12:20):\r\n\r\nI have a lot of friends who don\u2019t. They feel more of the effects of the curse in this specific area than we do, so I try to be\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (12:30):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s hard; it\u2019s toil.\r\n\r\nJordan (12:30):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s hard, it\u2019s toil; and listen, that\u2019s the reality. What\u2019s been lost, though, in the conversation is that there\u2019s still creational goodness in all good, God-glorifying work. All work was created to be perfectly good. And oh, by the way, one day it\u2019s all going to be perfect once again. \r\n\r\nAny time I have a buddy who hates his job, or her job, I point them to Isaiah 65. It\u2019s one of those beautiful promises of Scripture. Isaiah is talking about the new earth and says explicitly\u2014I think, in verse 17, he says\u2014\u201cSee, I will create new heavens and the new earth.\u201d Then he goes on, and says, \u201cMy chosen people will build houses and live in them. They will long enjoy the work of their hands. They will not labor in vain.\u201d \r\n\r\n(13:28) Contrary to this American caricature of heaven as a glorified retirement home, our eternal reality, on a new material earth, that is not exclusively \u201cspiritual\u201d contains work. What that means is, if you hate your job today, look forward, expectantly, to the day when you will long enjoy the work of your hands. And if you love your job, may that fuel your anticipation for eternity. Heaven isn\u2019t boring. Heaven is the most epic adventure of all time, because we will be ruling and reigning forever and ever\u2014Revelation 22:5\u2014with Jesus the King. And that includes good, perfect work that we will long enjoy. \r\n\r\nThose who claim that saving souls is all that matters, that\u2019s a slap in the face of Jesus; because Jesus came to make everything new. The curse of Genesis 3 broke the spiritual and the material realms. Unless Jesus returns and restores every part of this material world, this earth\u2014and makes it like new again\u2014then His redemption is incomplete. But His redemption isn\u2019t incomplete; we know that He\u2019s won back every square inch of creation. \r\n\r\n(14:25) That gives value and meaning to the material things that we do today\u2014because He has redeemed this earth; He has redeemed our souls\u2014so working with both souls and the material world, whether you\u2019re working grinding coffee beans, or making laptops, or creating spreadsheets, whatever it is\u2014that is good work because God never once renounced His claim that this material world, in the words of Genesis 1, is \u201cgood.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (14:46):\r\n\r\nIt's interesting. That leads me to ask this question: \u201cIf I'm a Christian and I understand this right perspective, how does it change the way I work?\u201d\r\n\r\nBecause when the NFL was sort of saying\u2014I had a head coach, who came to chapel\u2014he disagreed with that idea, but he wasn't sure. He said to me, \"Can you speak to this?\u201d I did a chapel on it; and he said, \"You got to do that chapel every year just to remind us.\" One of the points I made is: \u201cHere's what's going on in the league. There are owners saying, \u2018We don't want Christian players on our team, because they're going to care more about God than what they do on the field.\u2019\u201d I said, \"If they understand what a Christian player understands about work, they should be begging for you to be on their team.\"\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n(15:31) I go off; I'm like, \"You should be the hardest working people in the locker room. You should be there first; you should leave last,\"\u2014\"Why?\u201d\u2014\"You're not playing for an owner; you're not playing for a paycheck. You're playing for the King of Kings. He's giving you a gift; He's giving you work. It matters. Your intensity should be unbelievable. You should be the most caring person in the locker room; you're loving people. It should be like, \u2018I don't know what these people are, but I want those kind of guys in the locker room; because that's how Christian workers work.\u2019\" Am I right?\r\n\r\nJordan (15:55):\r\n\r\nOne hundred percent. If you get this high-level concept\u2014that work is a gift from God, a good gift; and whatever work you\u2019re doing today, so long as it\u2019s not explicitly out of line with God\u2019s commands, is good\u2014then, the practical out-workings of this are endless.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nJordan: You pointed to excellence. We claim to be image-bearers of God. \r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nJordan: Look outside your window: \u201cHow does God work?\u201d \u201cHow does God create?\u201d I was just in Zion National Park. \u201cExcellent\u201d falls so far short of describing the God of the Bible, but that\u2019s what we can ascribe to. So if you believe your work matters, and you\u2019re an image-bearer of God, you\u2019re going to work with excellence. You\u2019re going to work hard. You\u2019re going to work with care for people beyond their productivity. \r\n\r\nYou\u2019re also going to work with rest, because you know that the God of the universe loves you on your most and your least productive day, and that you can rest and still find favor as His child. I could go on and on; but when you get this, when you understand that your work matters to God, the practical outpourings of what that means shape, at a very practical level, how you do your work. That\u2019s why I wrote what I think is the first daily Monday-through-Friday devotional.\r\n\r\nAnn (17:06):\r\n\r\n\u2014which is really cool.\r\n\r\nJordan (17:07):\r\n\r\nYes, to help people connect the Word to their work, because the implications of this are legion.\r\n\r\nDave (17:13):\r\n\r\nI did a whole week of your devotional last night. I did!\r\n\r\nJordan (17:18):\r\n\r\nMe, too; I was doing prep. \r\n\r\nDave: I bet you were. I wanted to read through what you wrote. \r\n\r\nI remember the first year we started our church in Michigan, I was at a restaurant near where we started it. The owner comes up; I didn\u2019t know the guy. He said, \u201cHey, this is my restaurant. Can I talk to you a minute?\u201d I think, \u201cOh, no.\u201d He pulls me sort of aside, and says, \u201cHey, I heard you\u2019re Dave. You have this church,\u201d\u2014blah, blah, blah. He says, \u201cOne of your guys\u201d\u2014he\u2019s a high school kid\u2014\"works for me as a busboy.\u201d \r\n\r\n(18:01) And then, I think, \u201cOh, what did he do?\u201d And he goes, \u201cHe is the best worker I\u2019ve ever hired.\u201d I said, \u201cWhat?!\u201d I didn\u2019t know this kid; but he said, \u201cHe shows up early. He cares for people. He goes way out of his way. He\u2019s so caring; he\u2019s a model.\u201d I looked at him, like, \u201cWell, that\u2019s great. Why are you telling me that?\u201d He said, \u201cAre all your people like that?!\u201d I wanted to say, \u201cYes\u201d; but of course, not. I thought, \u201cWhat a picture of the way a Christian works in what many people would call a secular job.\u201d A busboy\u2014that doesn\u2019t matter\u2014to him, it mattered.\r\n\r\nJordan (18:23):\r\n\r\nOne hundred percent. \r\n\r\nThere\u2019s lots of talk about exile right now. In the West, we feel increasingly like we\u2019re in exile. I Peter is a letter to exiles; and what does Peter say in I Peter 2? He says, \u201cDo good. Live good lives amongst the pagans, not retreating to your Christian subculture, engaging the city, rushing into dark places, going and working in that industry that you think is god-forsaken, for the glory of God; so that people could see your excellence, and your love, and your genuine care. They get glimpses\u2014you\u2019re scratching off little glimpses\u2014of the eternal Kingdom of God and the God Who is King of all things.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (19:05):\r\n\r\nThis is so good; and now, I\u2019m thinking, as a mom, of the stay-at-home moms or dads, who are feeling like, \u201cI want to get back to work, but my husband and I have committed to being home with the kids.\u201d I remember that stage, when our kids were little. I felt like, \u201cI have no life; I have no. I have no value\u201d; because so much of my value was in my work. I was trying to get a perspective of: \u201cGod, I know this is a gift. I know You\u2019ve given me these kids, and they\u2019re a gift to us; but it feels like it\u2019s nothing.\u201d Jordan, what do you say to those parents who are home?\r\n\r\nJordan (19:39):\r\n\r\nI\u2019ve been so encouraged that those parents have found this devotional book to be helpful; because I make very clear in the book: \u201cListen, we define work as the thing we get paid to do. That is not how God defines work. God defines work so broadly that His definition of work in Exodus 20:10 includes animals working; that\u2019s called work.\u201d I think it\u2019s more helpful\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: What do you mean by that? Explain that. \r\n\r\nJordan: In The Ten Commandments, we\u2019ll get to the Fourth Commandment; and He issues the Sabbath command. God says, \u201cLet the animals rest from their work.\u201d It\u2019s the same word described as human labor. So this term is very broad in Scripture. To me, that\u2019s very encouraging; because I think we can define work very broadly as, not the thing we get paid to do; but basically, the opposite of leisure and rest.\r\n\r\n(20:32) And so you, parent\u2014you're a stay-at-home mom; stay-at-home dad\u2014you're doing the work that God has created you to do in this season. And that work is just as important. Now, society's not going to value that work very much; but the God of the universe does. Look at Mary; I think Mary's all the evidence that you need. Elizabeth is all the evidence that you need. Exodus, Chapter 1, which is all about mothers and women is all the evidence you need that God calls that work of parenting very much work.\r\n\r\nDave (21:05):\r\n\r\nWere you able to grab that perspective when you were a stay-at-home mom?\r\n\r\nAnn (21:07):\r\n\r\nYes. Well, I can remember being at home; and I can also remember cleaning toilets, like, \u201cThis is my life, now. This is it.\u201d But I  remember praying, \u201cLord, do You see what I\u2019m doing down here? This is nothing.\u201d I felt like God was saying, \u201cThis is a worship moment, Ann. Every one of these moments, as you\u2019re wiping bottoms, and you\u2019re wiping noses, and you\u2019re cleaning toilets\u2014and no one sees and no one is applauding\u2014I\u2019m applauding every one of those little and big tasks. No matter if you\u2019re speaking before thousands, or if you\u2019re all by yourself, cleaning your toilet, I see it; and We\u2019re applauding it in the heavenly realm.\u201d\r\n\r\nJordan (21:42):\r\n\r\nPsalm 37:23 is one of my favorite verses. It says, \u201cThe Lord directs the steps of the godly, and He delights in every detail\u2014 \r\n\r\nAnn (21:44):\r\n\r\n\u2014every.\r\n\r\nJordan (21:45):\r\n\r\n\u2014of their lives,\u201d\u2014not just when you\u2019re sharing the gospel, not just when you\u2019re donating money to church; although, He certainly smiles upon those things\u2014every time you change a diaper with excellence and love, in accordance with God\u2019s commands; every time you make a latte, and create a spreadsheet, and land a deal, with excellence and love, in accordance with God\u2019s commands, our heavenly Father sees it; He delights in it; and His delight is eternal. \r\n\r\nHebrews 6:10: \u201cHe will not forget the work that we do for Him. He is not unjust. He will remember it forever. It contributes to His eternal pleasure.\u201d That should fuel our purpose and pleasure in the present.\r\n\r\nDave (22:35):\r\n\r\nI was going to ask you, Jordan, to speak to the person that's struggling with their job; and you just did. I just thought, \u201cThat's what you would say.\u201d I remember, when I was coaching high school football, I'd be walking down the ramp to the high school field. I was just a volunteer coach; but every time I made that walk, I prayed and I remembered what I'm doing here\u2014it isn't trying to win football games\u2014I'm a light for the Kingdom. I'm loving these boys; I'm modeling to them what a man looks like. I'm like, \"I am working unto the Lord, and this is a beautiful thing.\" But I had to remind myself, as I walked, because I get caught up in football; and then\u2014that's good, too, because it's part of the work\u2014but it's like, \u201cNo, this is what I'm about.\u201d\r\n\r\n(23:18) You just did that. I was like, \u201cMan, if somebody's listening,\u201d\u2014it's one of those\u2014\"I'm going to play Jordan's words over again before I go to work today, because I need to be reminded: \u2018It's going to be hard; this is not an easy job, but it matters. God has put me here.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (23:29):\r\n\r\nOr you can get his devotional. \r\n\r\nDave (23:31):\r\n\r\nOr you can get his devotional; read it every day! That\u2019s good.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:33):\r\n\r\nMan, I love Jordan Raynor. He's such a systems guy; he's such a Bible guy. And again, his book is called The Word before Work: A Monday-through-Friday Devotional to Help You Find Eternal Purpose in Your Daily Work. And don't we all need that sometimes? We just need to be reminded: \u201cThis has an eternal purpose, even in the mundane days.\u201d You can find his book at FamilyLifeToday.com; just click the link in the show notes.\r\n\r\nDave (24:07):\r\n\r\nAt FamilyLife, we really believe strong families can change the world. And when you become a FamilyLife Partner, you help make that happen.\r\n\r\nAnn (24:15):\r\n\r\nAnd I don't know if you realize this, but your monthly gift helps us equip marriages and families with biblical tools that they can count on.\r\n\r\nDave (24:23):\r\n\r\nNow, that's a pretty good deal. And we also want to send you exclusive updates; behind-the-scenes access; and an invitation to our Private Partner Community, which is pretty cool. So join us, and let's reach families and marriages together.\r\n\r\nAnn (24:36):\r\n\r\nAnd you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com, and click the \u201cDonate\u201d button to join today.\r\n\r\nDave (24:45):\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nCelebrating 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?\r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2026 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife.com\n","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/318336","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=318336"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/295627"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=318336"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=318336"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=318336"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=318336"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=318336"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=318336"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}