{"id":318130,"date":"2026-03-24T04:23:26","date_gmt":"2026-03-24T08:23:26","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/crushing-it-at-work-missing-it-at-home-balancing-work-and-family-bryan-and-stephanie-carter\/"},"modified":"2026-03-24T04:23:27","modified_gmt":"2026-03-24T08:23:27","slug":"crushing-it-at-work-missing-it-at-home-balancing-work-and-family-bryan-and-stephanie-carter","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/crushing-it-at-work-missing-it-at-home-balancing-work-and-family-bryan-and-stephanie-carter\/","title":{"rendered":"Crushing It at Work, Missing It at Home: Balancing Work and Family &#8211; Bryan and &#038; Stephanie Carter"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>You\u2019re checking the boxes\u2014career, church, kids\u2014but something still feels off. Why doesn\u2019t success feel significant? And why does marriage take the hit when life gets busy? Stephanie Carter and her husband Bryan, author of Made to Last: 8 Principles to Build Long-Lasting Relationships, share how burnout, counseling, and hard recalibration reshaped their marriage and family rhythms. If you crave balancing work and family in practical ways that put God first without quitting your calling, this conversation meets you where you live.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Dave &#038; Ann Wilson host Bryan and Stephanie Carter where they share how burnout, counseling, and tough recalibration reshaped their marriage and family rhythms.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":295627,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/8ca2d51f-ee71-4611-9d72-b40a00e9d5c1\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:24:55","filesize":"22.85M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2811,2809],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[11468],"cwp_profile":[3635],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-318130","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-busyness-and-stress-challenges","category-commitment","podcast_series-made-to-last-bryan-and-stephanie-carter","cwp_profile-bryan-and-stephanie-carter","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Cover_1024x1024.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/318130\/crushing-it-at-work-missing-it-at-home-balancing-work-and-family-bryan-and-stephanie-carter","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/318130\/crushing-it-at-work-missing-it-at-home-balancing-work-and-family-bryan-and-stephanie-carter","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"x2XPp68pu5\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/crushing-it-at-work-missing-it-at-home-balancing-work-and-family-bryan-and-stephanie-carter\/\">Crushing It at Work, Missing It at Home: Balancing Work and Family &#8211; Bryan and &#038; Stephanie Carter<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/crushing-it-at-work-missing-it-at-home-balancing-work-and-family-bryan-and-stephanie-carter\/embed\/#?secret=x2XPp68pu5\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Crushing It at Work, Missing It at Home: Balancing Work and Family &#8211; Bryan and &#038; Stephanie Carter&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"x2XPp68pu5\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["8ca2d51f-ee71-4611-9d72-b40a00e9d5c1"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/8ca2d51f-ee71-4611-9d72-b40a00e9d5c1\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:24:55"],"filesize":["22.85M"],"_thumbnail_id":["295627"],"show_notes":["\n<ul>\n<li>Learn more about Bryan Carter's and his book <em>Made to Last: Eight Principles to Build Long-Lasting Relationships<\/em> at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.bryancarter.org\/\">bryancarter.org<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Attend a Weekend to Remember marriage getaway, our faith-based retreat with biblical teaching, practical tools, and focused time for couples: Register now at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/weekend-to-remember\/\">WeekendToRemember.com<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Sign up for the free Blended and Blessed livestream: a one-day event focused on building unity in blended families: Happening April 18, 2026 \u2014 register at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.blendedandblessed.com\/\">blendedandblessed.com<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Set sail on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.lovelikeyoumeanitcruise.com\/\">Love Like You Mean It Marriage Cruise!<\/a> Now through 3\/31\/26, use promo code CruiseMadness27 and enjoy exclusive savings on your stateroom.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr>\n<ul>\n<li>Thanks to the Christian Standard Bible for sponsoring this episode. Learn more at <a href=\"https:\/\/CSBible.com\">CSBible.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Follow us on all social platforms: <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/familylifeministry\">Facebook<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/familylife.today\/\">Instagram<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLSzse1nmlqbLhDx5FpGVDgLmxy1rmQBau\">YouTube<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from our podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Download <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n"],"transcript_content":["\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nCrushing It at Work, Missing It at Home: Balancing Work and Family\r\n\r\nGuests:Bryan and Stephanie Carter\r\n\r\nFrom the series:Made to Last (Day 2 of 3)\r\n\r\nAir date:March 24, 2026\r\n\r\nBryan (00:04):\r\n\r\nWe set goals for our family: \u201cWhere do we want our family\u2014marriage and family\u2014to go for the year?\u201d We set goals as a couple; as parents; financially; the house, kind of what we're trying to do around the house; spiritually. We're looking at our lives probably through about the lens of six key categories. And we're saying, \u201cOkay, what does God want to do in our family this year?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:31):\r\n\r\nWelcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.\r\n\r\nDave (00:38):\r\n\r\nAnd I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today. \r\n\r\nDave: I recently read a book, where the opening paragraph\u2014the first page of the book\u2014I felt like I was reading my story.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:59):\r\n\r\nOh.\r\n\r\nDave (00:59):\r\n\r\nIt was about a pastor. Things were going great at his church, and he felt empty. He sat down with a counselor; and I thought, \u201cWow; I went through the exact same thing.\u201d It was the framework for what his life was about and his marriage. He's sitting in the studio right now. Bryan and Stephanie Carter are back in the studio. Welcome back, guys. \r\n\r\nBryan: Thank you so much for having us. \r\n\r\nDave: That's funny\u2014you're over there\u2014and it was like, \u201cI don't know if he\u2019s talking about me.\u201d  \r\n\r\nBryan: I remember that. \r\n\r\nStephanie: Oh, okay. \r\n\r\nDave: I know you wrote the book a little while ago, but you remember how you opened it.\r\n\r\nBryan (01:31):\r\n\r\nI remember it well; I remember it well. \r\n\r\nDave (01:33):\r\n\r\nIt's called Made to Last and it's 8 Principles to Build Long Lasting Relationships. You\u2019re pastor of a large church. I told Ann, when I read it, I said, \u201cOh, my goodness!\u201d We wrote a book about Vertical Marriage; and the first two chapters are about this moment, when everything was going great at the church; but my heart, I said, \u201cI lost my first love.\u201d \r\n\r\nNow, I'm not saying you did that, but walk us through it; because you framed that story to say: \u201cThis is the most important thing in your life and to even make a marriage to last.\u201d So tell our listeners what I tried to tell them.\r\n\r\nBryan (02:06):\r\n\r\nSure, sure. Thank you. It was a unique season in our lives where our church was booming. We were adding services, three to four; we were in the midst of a building project. I succeeded, at our church, the founder; so he had been there 28 years. I'm coming behind him. It's a lot of pressure to come through. Year, probably, seven or eight, God is just blessing everything. A lot of demands: preaching four different services, trying to build a new building, raising the money, designing it, trying to grow staff, reach people, reach our city.\r\n\r\nAnn (02:41):\r\n\r\nAnd how many years had you guys been married at that point?\r\n\r\nBryan (02:43):\r\n\r\nAt that point, we've probably been married about ten years.\r\n\r\nDave: Oh, boy.\r\n\r\nAnn (02:46):\r\n\r\nYou had all your kids by then, so they were little.\r\n\r\nStephanie: They were little.\r\n\r\nBryan (02:49):\r\n\r\nThey were little: we had two\u2014probably, seven and five\u2014and a little two-year-old tagging around. I'm in seminary as well; I\u2019m in Dallas Seminary. It's a crazy, chaotic season; but on the outside, everything looks great. Young kids that we\u2019re chasing around; booming church is happening. \r\n\r\nBut it was at that juncture\u2014I'm 37 at the time\u2014I ended up talking to Dennis. Actually, I talked to Dennis; and then, I said, \u201cDennis, I need a counselor.\u201d He said, \u201cWhat do you need?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (03:19):\r\n\r\n\u2014Dennis Rainey, you\u2019re talking about.\r\n\r\nBryan (03:19):\r\n\r\nDennis Rainey; Dennis Rainey. I'm like, \u201cI need a counselor.\u201d He recommends a counselor. I'm talking to this counselor about trying to process what's happening: \u201cI have this emptiness that's on the inside. With all this happening, somehow, I feel empty on the inside. Something is missing.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (03:35):\r\n\r\nStephanie, did you know about this?\r\n\r\nStephanie (03:37):\r\n\r\nI did. He was just so busy. Like a typical pastor, he was a workaholic, and he loved ministry; he loved serving. I remember he would leave when it was dark, and he would come home when it was dark.\r\n\r\n(03:52) We had resolved in our marriage, just through premarital [counseling], that we both can't have two demanding jobs. At this time, I'm at home. I had been a school teacher; I taught third and fourth grade; I was an instructional specialist. And then, after the birth of our second child, I came home. \r\n\r\nI think we were just in the routine of the busyness. But you could see the weight\u2014I always saw the weight of ministry on him\u2014but he just seemed like he thrived off of it, maybe, because we had been\u2014I'd known him since college; we had met in college\u2014he was a leader on his campus. So this was nothing new of how busy he was. But it wasn't until later, after he talked to Dennis, and he was like, \u201cI need to go spend a couple of days with a therapist.\u201d \r\n\r\n(04:45) Then I was kind of like, \u201cNow, wait; now, why? What's going on?\u201d Because, during that season, it seemed like there were a lot of leaders who were falling and having integrity issues. I kind of was like, \u201cNow, wait; now, what?\u201d I kind of perked up a little bit, \u201cNow, what? Now, what's going on?\u201d But then, he just assured me. So then, I was really proud of him that he wanted to go talk to someone\u2014because you just don't hear\u2014just talking to different wives, you would hear wives talking about their husband's not going to seek any type of counseling or talking to a therapist. And here it is: I have one who wants to go talk to a therapist; so of course, I'm going to be like, \u201cYes, go ahead; please.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (05:19):\r\n\r\nAnd you knew, Bryan, that you needed that.\r\n\r\nBryan (05:21):\r\n\r\nI knew something was missing.\r\n\r\nAnn (05:23):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nBryan (05:23):\r\n\r\nI just knew that there was something missing\u2014and it wasn't my wife; it wasn't my kids\u2014there was an emptiness inside that was happening, despite all the success\u2014apparent success that seemed to be happening all around me. I just knew I needed to talk to somebody to try to process what I was feeling, what was happening. \r\n\r\nI remember the conversation; she was like, \u201cWhat's going on?\u201d I said, \u201cWell, it's not\u2026\u201d I had been seeing a lot of leaders fall in ministry; and I was like, \u201cI don't want to do that. So let me figure out what's happening.\u201d I think it's in many of our lives\u2014there is this temptation that we all face\u2014if we don't ask ourselves, sometimes, the tough questions; or have someone helping us to process through those moments. \r\n\r\nWhen I began talking to my counselor, he told me I was going through a midlife crisis. I said, \u201cI'm 37 now; what is that?! What, in the world, is that?!\u201d I was like, \u201cHow am I going through it? I\u2019m like a 37.\u201d He began to describe success and significance\u2014how we climb and climb\u2014and try to achieve success, success, success. We think we have it; but even when we attain it, it doesn't give us what we thought it would.\r\n\r\n(06:35) There's a distinction between success and significance. He began to unpack for me that: \u201cYou've been climbing, and achieving, and trying to have all these things; and you've gotten it. Now, that you have it, you're like, \u2018This is not what I want. It still doesn't bring me the joy, and the satisfaction, and the fulfillment that I thought it would.\u2019\u201d He says, \u201cWhat you're really looking for is significance.\u201d\r\n\r\nHe said, \u201cBryan, what's happened is you've become a bit disconnected, as you mentioned, from your heart, from God. You've got so many things going on that you've forgotten your first love, which is God; which is, that relationship\u2014cultivating that, spending time with Him\u2014and serving others out of the overflow of your relationship with God.\u201d\r\n\r\nIt was those sessions, and that conversation, and reassessing my life, that helped me to get reconnected back to God; so in turn, I could get reconnected back to my family and to the ministry that we were doing. I'd say I had gotten out of balance; I had gotten out of rhythm; my priorities were all mixed up. It required me getting back to my devotional time, getting back to my prayer time, getting back to my just alone-time with the Lord\u2014and just being versus doing\u2014just being in His presence versus performing. It was a recalibration of my life. \r\n\r\n(07:46) And even now, I have to continue to remind myself of that. My church has blessed me with a sabbatical; and part of that, just me to get reconnected, reset time with the Lord: \u201cSlow down,\u201d \u201cTake your time; it's okay,\u201d \u201cSpend time: memorize; let's review some of the verses; let's Scripture memory. Let's fast; let's find some time to just be with God.\u201d \r\n\r\nI think that's key to a lot of relationships. If I'm not connected to God well\u2014if I'm not in His presence, if my relationship with God is not good\u2014of course, I'm not going to get along with her, or get along with my kids, or get along with others. Every relationship\u2014it\u2019s foundational\u2014begins with my relationship with God, and everything else flows from there.\r\n\r\nDave (08:45):\r\n\r\nSo when you did that, was it something that you saw? Honestly, it transformed you. How did it impact this? And of course, you were a dad of young kids at the time.\r\n\r\nBryan (08:55):\r\n\r\nYeah, I think it helped me to reset my priorities a bit. I think this pressure to perform consumes us \u2014always on email, always looking at your to-do list, always trying to look at the next thing\u2014it's just constant. I think, at that juncture:\r\n\r\nIt meant, Mondays, I took my off day. It meant, Mondays, when I took the kids to the park. It meant, Mondays, \u201cBabe, I got it. I'm going to do the drop off; I'll do pickup. I'm going to go have lunch with them at school today.\u201d\r\n\r\nI think it meant our date nights were protected. It meant that I had to make sure that I was hearing her heart, hearing her passion, her desires for our family and marriage so that I wasn't so consumed with public success. \r\n\r\nCertain things can give you an esteem\u2014preaching\u2014everybody sees that; or leading the meetings; or organizing things in the life of the church. Everybody sees that; nobody sees the time with the kids like we do. Nobody sees, \u201cAre we going on vacation this year? Let's make sure we take care of that.\u201d Just trying to build out the rhythms of our family so that we have a rhythm that is manageable, that cultivates the love and the care and the grace in our family. Whether it's our vacations, whether it's family time, it just helped me reset things a bit. \r\n\r\nSo now, every year, we set goals for our family: \u201cWhere do we want our family\u2014marriage and family\u2014to go for the year?\u201d We set goals as a couple; as parents; financially; the house, kind of what we're trying to do around the house; spiritually.\r\n\r\n(10:37) We're looking at our lives probably through about the lens of six key categories. We're saying, \u201cOkay, what does God want to do in our family this year?\u201d By us doing that together, I hear her heart; and we can stay aligned. We can look back, and say, \u201cOkay, this is where we're going; this is how we're going to get there\u2026\u201d We can work together to make it happen. I think that crash, or burning out, helps you to say this: \u201cI don't want that to happen; I don't want that feeling, so how do I build in the rhythms and routines to protect my heart; but also, to regard the heart of our family?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (11:09):\r\n\r\nSo Stephanie, walk us through that. You sit down\u2014do you guys\u2014is this on a vacation, where you sit down and go through your goals?\r\n\r\nStephanie (11:15):\r\n\r\nSometimes, it's on a vacation; but then, even before we get to that, we have a talk-time\u2014our talk-time\u2014it's something, weekly, that we do, where we talk through the kids' activities; we talk through what I'm doing this week.\r\n\r\nAnn (11:29):\r\n\r\nYou're looking at your schedules.\r\n\r\nStephanie (11:30):\r\n\r\nHe is the master scheduler, which is great; I love it. But basically, that talk-time starts every Sunday. When our kids were younger, they weren't a part of talk-time; but now, as they got older\u2014I'd probably say late elementary, early middle school\u2014they were a part of talk-time. \r\n\r\nDuring that talk-time, it's kind of our family meeting. It might be: \u201cHey, how can I pray for you?\u201d It could be something as: \u201cOh, I have a test this week,\u201d or \u201cOh, I have to have a conversation with So-and-so; because they were mean to me. And I don't know\u2026\u201d\u2014just talking through that. Just giving an open dialogue with our children. I think that helped immensely. \r\n\r\nAnd then, as far as the goal-setting, that was very essential; because sometimes, as husband and wife, we cannot be on the same page. I might want to do something\u2014\r\n\r\nBryan: Curtains.\r\n\r\nStephanie: Yes, curtains. \r\n\r\nDave (12:23):\r\n\r\nCurtains\u2014you need them\u2014you need some.\r\n\r\nStephanie (12:25):\r\n\r\nRight now, our big thing in our house was wanting to do some things with our backyard. Anytime we've wanted to do something, like super expensive\u2014whatever\u2014he'll be like, \u201cRemember, the backyard.\u201d \u201c That's right; that's right\u2014the backyard\u2014that\u2019s our focus.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (12:41):\r\n\r\nBut when you start talking about marriage kind of stuff, what did that look like?\u2014when you say, \u201cWhat are our goals for our marriage this year?\u201d Because most couples don't do this\u2014we just survive\u2014we're just getting through.\r\n\r\nStephanie (12:55):\r\n\r\nWe\u2019re just trying to make it.\r\n\r\nOur goals for our marriage might be: \u201cWe're going to go to a marriage conference,\u201d or \u201cWe're going to have a date night consistently,\u201d \u201cWe are going to pray for each other consistently,\u201d \u201cWe're going to have a devotion time.\u201d What did I leave off?\r\n\r\nBryan (13:11):\r\n\r\nThat's a good foundation.\r\n\r\nStephanie: There you go. \r\n\r\nBryan: It doesn't have to\u2014those three to four, right there\u2014give us a rhythm that helps protect and strengthen our marriage. Marriage conference, as she mentioned\u2014some years, we might do a married grow group, so a small group of couples that's, not only going to help us, but help those other couples as well\u2014normally, those fortify. That's typically where we try to focus on, in terms of what we want to do for our marriage, specifically. \r\n\r\nAnd then we'll add others:\r\n\r\nAround financial: \u201cWhat was our plan?\u2014financial?\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cWhere are we going, together, as a couple?\u201d \r\n\r\n\u201cParenting: what activities do we want the kids involved in this year that grow them spiritually?\u201d It might be going to a Christian camp. It might be: \u201cThis one here needs some extra tutoring,\u201d or \u201cThis year, this one here; how do we help that child take their next step?\u201d\u2014based on if they have unique gifts and talents\u2014\"How do we develop those unique gifts and talents?\u201d \r\n\r\n(13:55) These six or seven categories help us. They help shape a vision for our house so that we stay aligned and stay connected. \r\n\r\nThe other thing that's happened\u2014my wife always says\u2014we have two vacations every year: we have a vacation with the family; we take them somewhere; and then, we have a vacation for ourselves; that's a couple goal. One time we told our mentor, \u201cWe're going to Disney World.\u201d He said, \u201cNo, no, no; where are you guys\/where are the two of you going on vacation?\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cBecause that\u2019s not vacation.\u201d\r\n\r\nBryan: He said, \u201cThat's work! You guys need to plan a separate vacation, after you come back from that, for you guys.\u201d We've learned stay-cations\u2014we'll stay right in Dallas\u2014\u201cLet\u2019s get a hotel; have a great time.\u201d We've learned how to have time together. \r\n\r\nOh, one more thing that we've learned: couple friends. We prayed\u2014in our 30s, we were so lonely in ministry\u2014we prayed for friends. It was hard; because you're pastoring, you're leading, you're serving. We prayed, and God sent us two couples\u2014two couples that we met, over ten years ago\u2014we vacation together; we spend time together. It's a safe space; we can be transparent. We can be\u2014we don't have to be pastor in this\u2014no titles.\r\n\r\nAnn (15:12):\r\n\r\nDo they go to your church?\r\n\r\nBryan (15:13):\r\n\r\nNeither one go to our church. \r\n\r\nStephanie: That's what makes it great.\r\n\r\nAnn (15:15):\r\n\r\nYeah, yeah.\r\n\r\nBryan (15:16):\r\n\r\nThat makes things better. But having friends\u2014ooh, it's been a blessing\u2014to be able to just be you, and to be able to share, and be authentic, has probably been one of the biggest blessings in our lives.\r\n\r\nDave (15:32):\r\n\r\nWell, we've been speakers at the Weekend to Remember Marriage getaway for 36 years. Every single conference we're a part of, lives are changed.\r\n\r\nAnn (15:41):\r\n\r\nOh, the stories are incredible. Where God meets couples, great things happen. And you know what? There's a sale going on that you are not going to want to miss.\r\n\r\nDave (15:50):\r\n\r\nYeah, the sale is right now\u2014between March 20 and 30\u2014it's 40 percent off. Who doesn't want a deal like that?\r\n\r\nAnn (15:57):\r\n\r\nThat's a good deal.\r\n\r\nDave (15:58):\r\n\r\nNot only will your marriage be changed, but your kids' marriages and your legacy. I'm telling you: it's transformational for your legacy. Go to WeekendToRemember.com and sign up there. You don't need a promo code; just sign up. You'll get 40 percent off between March 20 and 30.\r\n\r\nAnn (16:12):\r\n\r\nAgain, that's WeekendToRemember.com.\r\n\r\nDave (16:19):\r\n\r\nSo often, you hear a couple say, \u201cGod's first\u201d; but that's all they say; there's no action behind it. \u201cWhat's the most important thing in your marriage?\u201d\u2014\"God first.\u201d \u201cOkay; what's that look like?\u201d \u201cI don't know.\u201d \u201cDo you go to church?\u201d \u201cOnce or twice a month.\u201d The average person, we pastors know, it's like 1.3 [Sundays] a month now is the average for church. \r\n\r\nWhen our book came out, we ended up somehow\u2014don't ask me how\u2014on The Today Show. Craig Melvin, who didn't know us, was the host. He looks at us; he asked a great question. He said, \u201cOkay, read your book. So you bring God in your marriage and everything works out. Is that it?\u201d I thought, \u201cThat's a great question,\u201d because that's what it can look like.\r\n\r\n(17:05) \u201cGod first\u201d\u2014you just said\u2014\u201cHere's what \u2018God first looks like: it's in the calendar; it's something we talk about; it\u2019s something we pray about. We vacation; we have community.\u2019\u201d I just want to make sure our listeners heard that; because so many of us say the same thing, and there's no action to it. You are\u2014your relationship's lasting 25 years in\u2014because it isn't just a motto: \u201cGod first,\u201d\u2014no; \u201cThis is what it looks like: \u2018If you're going to do it, it's going to show up. If God's first, it's going to affect my bank account.\u2019\u201d We pastors know you're going to see it in your calendar; you're going to see it in your bank account. \r\n\r\nI just want somebody listening to go back and listen to the last five or seven minutes; and then, have a conversation tonight with your wife, or your husband, and say, \u201cWhat would that look like for the Smiths?\u201d or \u201c\u2026the Wilsons,\u201d\u2014or [whomever]. \u201cWe're not doing that, but we need to be doing some of these things,\u201d or \u201c\u2026all of these things, if we want a relationship that's going to last.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (17:51):\r\n\r\nTalk-time; I like it!\r\n\r\nStephanie (17:51):\r\n\r\nThe talk-time is huge. I think it also helps your children to see it as well.\r\n\r\nDave (17:58):\r\n\r\nOh, yeah.\r\n\r\nStephanie (17:59):\r\n\r\nYour children need to see you setting goals for your family. They need to see you setting goals for: \u201cHow am I going to grow spiritually?\u201d For me, there was a season where I did Bible Study Fellowship. This is before I was a women's ministry director and so on. I was so new to being a pastor's wife, and I just needed a safe place. Bible Study Fellowship was that safe place for me; because you go to Bible Study Fellowship and they can't ask you about church; or you can't say, \u201cAren't you\u2026\u201d I would love my little Bible study leader; she'd be like, \u201cWe don't discuss that here.\u201d I'm like, \u201cYes! We just do Jesus; nothing else.\u201d That was my safe place. \r\n\r\nFor my kids to see me going off to Bible Study Fellowship; and then, that they're staying with their dad instead of I'm getting a babysitter, or my mom is watching them. Them seeing their dad love me enough to say, \u201cHey, babe, I need you to go. I need you to grow, too; and I need you to get filled. I don't want you to worry about the kids, and this, that, this, that.\u201d\r\n\r\nThis is my advice to that wife, or that mom: \u201cLet him do it. He's not going to do it like you want him to do it. Just let him do it.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (19:10):\r\n\r\nIt doesn\u2019t matter what they ate.\r\n\r\nStephanie (19:11):\r\n\r\nIt doesn't matter; I don't care.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: What they dress like. \r\n\r\nStephanie: You're going to leave the house to go do what you need to do.\r\n\r\nDave (19:15):\r\n\r\nWas that hard for you to do?\r\n\r\nStephanie (19:17):\r\n\r\nYes, but I learned a quick lesson\u2014it was with our first child\u2014I would just critique him, and I would nag him. I'm like, \u201cNo, that's not\u2026\u201d \u201cBryan, please...\u201d I'll never forget, there was one time I was doing laundry. I was like, \u201cIf you can just watch Kaitlyn.\u201d He was like, \u201cYeah, yeah. I'm watching the game.\u201d I give him Kaitlyn\u2014she's laying on his chest\u2014he's eating Doritos. This is a bad-dad moment for you; he's wiping the Dorito dust on the back of her onesie. I'm walking through, with the basket of clothes; and I'm like, \u201cShe's a napkin?\u201d \u201cShe's a napkin?\u201d He's like, \u201cWhat?! It's not hurting her; it's on her back.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: \u201cYou're going to wash it later.\u201d \r\n\r\nStephanie: \u201cShe can't reach over. It's not one of those fancy onesies you have for her; it's just a plain onesie,\u201d\u2014using our child as a napkin. \r\n\r\nAnn: And now, you would just let that go. \r\n\r\nStephanie: I would let it go. I learned: \u201cWho cares? It is not hurting her.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: I'm with you; I'm with you. That's some good advice.\r\n\r\nDave (20:19):\r\n\r\nWell, I want to talk about Made to Last principles with parenting. But let me ask you one last thing. You mentioned a safe couple or couples. A lot of couples don't have that. How do you get that, and why is it important? We have that, and it's so critical; but coach some couples\u2014they got to have that; that's really important\u2014so help us.\r\n\r\nBryan (20:42):\r\n\r\nI think they start with prayer. \r\n\r\nStephanie: Yeah, you have to start with prayer. \r\n\r\nBryan: I think a couple has to start praying, now, for God to send that relationship. I think you got to pray for it; I don't think they happen by accident. I think they happen as a result of God's grace into our lives; they're an expression of God on us. \r\n\r\nI think you start out praying; and then, the Lord\u2014you have to take chances\u2014you have to spend some time together; try lunch together. You have to try dinner together; try the families together, and just be open to see how it goes. Sometimes, you got to see\u2014you give it time, to figure out: \u201cIs this the right fit?\u201d It's hard to get four people to really connect well.\r\n\r\nStephanie (21:21):\r\n\r\n\u2014and everybody likes each other\r\n\r\nBryan (21:22):\r\n\r\n\u2014and everybody likes each other. Those are rare situations.\r\n\r\nStephanie (21:25):\r\n\r\nThat's rare; that's why we only have two.\r\n\r\nBryan (21:27):\r\n\r\nAnd we don't necessarily mix the two; they are two distinct, separate relationships. \r\n\r\nI would say, \u201cPray for it\u201d; I would say, \u201cGive it time.\u201d I would say:\r\n\r\n\u201cYou got to be open and honest.\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cBe willing to cultivate that relationship. You've got to protect that relationship; which means, \u2018What happens there, stays there.\u2019 You don't take it outside it and violate that trust.\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cAnd then, you got to be willing to be friendly.\u201d Sometimes you're just like, \u201cWell, I'm going to keep all our stuff\u2014I'm not going to share anything,\u2014I don't know about them.\u201d But you never really build a heart connection without being transparent.\r\n\r\nDave (22:00):\r\n\r\nIn those safe couples, you're vulnerable. You're sharing the junk.\r\n\r\nBryan (22:04):\r\n\r\n\u2014sharing the junk.\r\n\r\nDave (22:05):\r\n\r\nYou're not doing that with everybody, but with those you feel like\r\n\r\nStephanie (22:08):\r\n\r\n\u2014with those, yes.\r\n\r\nDave (22:09):\r\n\r\nAnd that's what's so important. Somebody\u2014\r\n\r\nStephanie: Somebody that you can share with and that you do life with. Two of our couple friends\u2014we each have three kids\u2014and they're all, pretty much, kind of going through the same season. I always believe that you should have someone in your life that's walking ahead of you; walking beside you; and then, of course, somebody that you're pulling up behind you. \r\n\r\nWe have a group of other friends\u2014we forgot to mention them\u2014that we\/all our kids are older kids. We're all in preschool together. We would go on vacations together, and we still do it; but we stopped taking our kids, because it's like four [couples]. Two of us have three kids\u2014no, we have the most kids\u2014and then, there's two couples who only have one kid. They were like, \u201cOh, we take them everywhere.\u201d I'm like, \u201cNo, we're done with this.\u201d We took him to DC; remember that? We went to DC, and that was our last time. We were like\u2014\r\n\r\nBryan (23:00):\r\n\r\n\u2014last trip, kids were too much. \r\n\r\nStephanie (23:01):\r\n\r\nWe were like, \u201cNo more kids,\u201d \u201cNo more kids; this is not vacation for us, guys.\u201d And they're like, \u201cNo.\u201d We're like, \u201cNo, it's not.\u201d So anyway, we go on a couples\u2019 trip with them and stuff; but our kids have been in pre-K together.\r\n\r\nBryan (23:13):\r\n\r\nEvery couple needs a place. \r\n\r\nStephanie: You have to have it.\r\n\r\nBryan: You crave it, where you can just be yourselves, where you can be honest. They don't get mad when you say, \u201cWell, Bryan is not doing this\u201d; and Bryan\u2014I don't get bristled up; I don't get resistant\u2014I say, \u201cYou're right. I probably could do better\u201d; and we can talk through it. You need people to help you.\r\n\r\nDave (23:31):\r\n\r\nAnd she says, \u201cNot probably; you can do better.\u201d\r\n\r\nBryan (23:36):\r\n\r\nBut the accountability of friendship is healthy for you; it's healthy for me. \r\n\r\nDave: You got to have it.\r\n\r\nBryan: You got to have it. You just can't do it in isolation; you can't do it in isolation; it doesn\u2019t work.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:46):\r\n\r\nThis has been so rich, you guys; thank you. \r\n\r\nBryan: Thank you.\r\n\r\nStephanie: Thank you. \r\n\r\nAnn: Lots of great things to apply.\r\n\r\nDave (23:56):\r\n\r\nWell, it's great having Bryan and Stephanie with us again. Just remember: you can get their book; it's a great book.\r\n\r\nAnn (24:03):\r\n\r\nIt's called Made to Last: 8 Principles to Build Long Lasting Relationships.\r\n\r\nDave (24:08):\r\n\r\nAnd you can get it at FamilyLifeToday.com; just click the link in the show notes. I'll tell you what\u2014a lot of people don't know this\u2014but we're on YouTube.\r\n\r\nAnn (24:16):\r\n\r\nI love watching YouTube clips. You get a lot more out of it, I think, when you are watching people.\r\n\r\nDave (24:20):\r\n\r\nAnd the next generation's probably going to watch it rather than just listen to it; you can do either\/or. But if you want to watch and enjoy it\u2014youtube.com\/FamilyLife\u2014just go to youtube.com\/FamilyLife. Or if you're a big YouTube person, just go to YouTube and type in FamilyLife\u2014one word.\r\n\r\nAnn (24:37):\r\n\r\nI put three words on there, and it still worked: FamilyLife Today.\r\n\r\nDave (24:45):\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nCelebrating 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?\r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2026 FamilyLife. 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& Ann Wilson host Bryan and Stephanie Carter where they share how burnout, counseling, and tough recalibration reshaped their marriage and family rhythms.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"\n<ul>\n<li>Learn more about Bryan Carter's and his book <em>Made to Last: Eight Principles to Build Long-Lasting Relationships<\/em> at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.bryancarter.org\/\">bryancarter.org<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Attend a Weekend to Remember marriage getaway, our faith-based retreat with biblical teaching, practical tools, and focused time for couples: Register now at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/weekend-to-remember\/\">WeekendToRemember.com<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Sign up for the free Blended and Blessed livestream: a one-day event focused on building unity in blended families: Happening April 18, 2026 \u2014 register at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.blendedandblessed.com\/\">blendedandblessed.com<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Set sail on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.lovelikeyoumeanitcruise.com\/\">Love Like You Mean It Marriage Cruise!<\/a> Now through 3\/31\/26, use promo code CruiseMadness27 and enjoy exclusive savings on your stateroom.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr>\n<ul>\n<li>Thanks to the Christian Standard Bible for sponsoring this episode. Learn more at <a href=\"https:\/\/CSBible.com\">CSBible.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Follow us on all social platforms: <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/familylifeministry\">Facebook<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/familylife.today\/\">Instagram<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLSzse1nmlqbLhDx5FpGVDgLmxy1rmQBau\">YouTube<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from our podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Download <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2026-03-24.pdf","transcript_content":"\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nCrushing It at Work, Missing It at Home: Balancing Work and Family\r\n\r\nGuests:Bryan and Stephanie Carter\r\n\r\nFrom the series:Made to Last (Day 2 of 3)\r\n\r\nAir date:March 24, 2026\r\n\r\nBryan (00:04):\r\n\r\nWe set goals for our family: \u201cWhere do we want our family\u2014marriage and family\u2014to go for the year?\u201d We set goals as a couple; as parents; financially; the house, kind of what we're trying to do around the house; spiritually. We're looking at our lives probably through about the lens of six key categories. And we're saying, \u201cOkay, what does God want to do in our family this year?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:31):\r\n\r\nWelcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.\r\n\r\nDave (00:38):\r\n\r\nAnd I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today. \r\n\r\nDave: I recently read a book, where the opening paragraph\u2014the first page of the book\u2014I felt like I was reading my story.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:59):\r\n\r\nOh.\r\n\r\nDave (00:59):\r\n\r\nIt was about a pastor. Things were going great at his church, and he felt empty. He sat down with a counselor; and I thought, \u201cWow; I went through the exact same thing.\u201d It was the framework for what his life was about and his marriage. He's sitting in the studio right now. Bryan and Stephanie Carter are back in the studio. Welcome back, guys. \r\n\r\nBryan: Thank you so much for having us. \r\n\r\nDave: That's funny\u2014you're over there\u2014and it was like, \u201cI don't know if he\u2019s talking about me.\u201d  \r\n\r\nBryan: I remember that. \r\n\r\nStephanie: Oh, okay. \r\n\r\nDave: I know you wrote the book a little while ago, but you remember how you opened it.\r\n\r\nBryan (01:31):\r\n\r\nI remember it well; I remember it well. \r\n\r\nDave (01:33):\r\n\r\nIt's called Made to Last and it's 8 Principles to Build Long Lasting Relationships. You\u2019re pastor of a large church. I told Ann, when I read it, I said, \u201cOh, my goodness!\u201d We wrote a book about Vertical Marriage; and the first two chapters are about this moment, when everything was going great at the church; but my heart, I said, \u201cI lost my first love.\u201d \r\n\r\nNow, I'm not saying you did that, but walk us through it; because you framed that story to say: \u201cThis is the most important thing in your life and to even make a marriage to last.\u201d So tell our listeners what I tried to tell them.\r\n\r\nBryan (02:06):\r\n\r\nSure, sure. Thank you. It was a unique season in our lives where our church was booming. We were adding services, three to four; we were in the midst of a building project. I succeeded, at our church, the founder; so he had been there 28 years. I'm coming behind him. It's a lot of pressure to come through. Year, probably, seven or eight, God is just blessing everything. A lot of demands: preaching four different services, trying to build a new building, raising the money, designing it, trying to grow staff, reach people, reach our city.\r\n\r\nAnn (02:41):\r\n\r\nAnd how many years had you guys been married at that point?\r\n\r\nBryan (02:43):\r\n\r\nAt that point, we've probably been married about ten years.\r\n\r\nDave: Oh, boy.\r\n\r\nAnn (02:46):\r\n\r\nYou had all your kids by then, so they were little.\r\n\r\nStephanie: They were little.\r\n\r\nBryan (02:49):\r\n\r\nThey were little: we had two\u2014probably, seven and five\u2014and a little two-year-old tagging around. I'm in seminary as well; I\u2019m in Dallas Seminary. It's a crazy, chaotic season; but on the outside, everything looks great. Young kids that we\u2019re chasing around; booming church is happening. \r\n\r\nBut it was at that juncture\u2014I'm 37 at the time\u2014I ended up talking to Dennis. Actually, I talked to Dennis; and then, I said, \u201cDennis, I need a counselor.\u201d He said, \u201cWhat do you need?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (03:19):\r\n\r\n\u2014Dennis Rainey, you\u2019re talking about.\r\n\r\nBryan (03:19):\r\n\r\nDennis Rainey; Dennis Rainey. I'm like, \u201cI need a counselor.\u201d He recommends a counselor. I'm talking to this counselor about trying to process what's happening: \u201cI have this emptiness that's on the inside. With all this happening, somehow, I feel empty on the inside. Something is missing.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (03:35):\r\n\r\nStephanie, did you know about this?\r\n\r\nStephanie (03:37):\r\n\r\nI did. He was just so busy. Like a typical pastor, he was a workaholic, and he loved ministry; he loved serving. I remember he would leave when it was dark, and he would come home when it was dark.\r\n\r\n(03:52) We had resolved in our marriage, just through premarital [counseling], that we both can't have two demanding jobs. At this time, I'm at home. I had been a school teacher; I taught third and fourth grade; I was an instructional specialist. And then, after the birth of our second child, I came home. \r\n\r\nI think we were just in the routine of the busyness. But you could see the weight\u2014I always saw the weight of ministry on him\u2014but he just seemed like he thrived off of it, maybe, because we had been\u2014I'd known him since college; we had met in college\u2014he was a leader on his campus. So this was nothing new of how busy he was. But it wasn't until later, after he talked to Dennis, and he was like, \u201cI need to go spend a couple of days with a therapist.\u201d \r\n\r\n(04:45) Then I was kind of like, \u201cNow, wait; now, why? What's going on?\u201d Because, during that season, it seemed like there were a lot of leaders who were falling and having integrity issues. I kind of was like, \u201cNow, wait; now, what?\u201d I kind of perked up a little bit, \u201cNow, what? Now, what's going on?\u201d But then, he just assured me. So then, I was really proud of him that he wanted to go talk to someone\u2014because you just don't hear\u2014just talking to different wives, you would hear wives talking about their husband's not going to seek any type of counseling or talking to a therapist. And here it is: I have one who wants to go talk to a therapist; so of course, I'm going to be like, \u201cYes, go ahead; please.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (05:19):\r\n\r\nAnd you knew, Bryan, that you needed that.\r\n\r\nBryan (05:21):\r\n\r\nI knew something was missing.\r\n\r\nAnn (05:23):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nBryan (05:23):\r\n\r\nI just knew that there was something missing\u2014and it wasn't my wife; it wasn't my kids\u2014there was an emptiness inside that was happening, despite all the success\u2014apparent success that seemed to be happening all around me. I just knew I needed to talk to somebody to try to process what I was feeling, what was happening. \r\n\r\nI remember the conversation; she was like, \u201cWhat's going on?\u201d I said, \u201cWell, it's not\u2026\u201d I had been seeing a lot of leaders fall in ministry; and I was like, \u201cI don't want to do that. So let me figure out what's happening.\u201d I think it's in many of our lives\u2014there is this temptation that we all face\u2014if we don't ask ourselves, sometimes, the tough questions; or have someone helping us to process through those moments. \r\n\r\nWhen I began talking to my counselor, he told me I was going through a midlife crisis. I said, \u201cI'm 37 now; what is that?! What, in the world, is that?!\u201d I was like, \u201cHow am I going through it? I\u2019m like a 37.\u201d He began to describe success and significance\u2014how we climb and climb\u2014and try to achieve success, success, success. We think we have it; but even when we attain it, it doesn't give us what we thought it would.\r\n\r\n(06:35) There's a distinction between success and significance. He began to unpack for me that: \u201cYou've been climbing, and achieving, and trying to have all these things; and you've gotten it. Now, that you have it, you're like, \u2018This is not what I want. It still doesn't bring me the joy, and the satisfaction, and the fulfillment that I thought it would.\u2019\u201d He says, \u201cWhat you're really looking for is significance.\u201d\r\n\r\nHe said, \u201cBryan, what's happened is you've become a bit disconnected, as you mentioned, from your heart, from God. You've got so many things going on that you've forgotten your first love, which is God; which is, that relationship\u2014cultivating that, spending time with Him\u2014and serving others out of the overflow of your relationship with God.\u201d\r\n\r\nIt was those sessions, and that conversation, and reassessing my life, that helped me to get reconnected back to God; so in turn, I could get reconnected back to my family and to the ministry that we were doing. I'd say I had gotten out of balance; I had gotten out of rhythm; my priorities were all mixed up. It required me getting back to my devotional time, getting back to my prayer time, getting back to my just alone-time with the Lord\u2014and just being versus doing\u2014just being in His presence versus performing. It was a recalibration of my life. \r\n\r\n(07:46) And even now, I have to continue to remind myself of that. My church has blessed me with a sabbatical; and part of that, just me to get reconnected, reset time with the Lord: \u201cSlow down,\u201d \u201cTake your time; it's okay,\u201d \u201cSpend time: memorize; let's review some of the verses; let's Scripture memory. Let's fast; let's find some time to just be with God.\u201d \r\n\r\nI think that's key to a lot of relationships. If I'm not connected to God well\u2014if I'm not in His presence, if my relationship with God is not good\u2014of course, I'm not going to get along with her, or get along with my kids, or get along with others. Every relationship\u2014it\u2019s foundational\u2014begins with my relationship with God, and everything else flows from there.\r\n\r\nDave (08:45):\r\n\r\nSo when you did that, was it something that you saw? Honestly, it transformed you. How did it impact this? And of course, you were a dad of young kids at the time.\r\n\r\nBryan (08:55):\r\n\r\nYeah, I think it helped me to reset my priorities a bit. I think this pressure to perform consumes us \u2014always on email, always looking at your to-do list, always trying to look at the next thing\u2014it's just constant. I think, at that juncture:\r\n\r\nIt meant, Mondays, I took my off day. It meant, Mondays, when I took the kids to the park. It meant, Mondays, \u201cBabe, I got it. I'm going to do the drop off; I'll do pickup. I'm going to go have lunch with them at school today.\u201d\r\n\r\nI think it meant our date nights were protected. It meant that I had to make sure that I was hearing her heart, hearing her passion, her desires for our family and marriage so that I wasn't so consumed with public success. \r\n\r\nCertain things can give you an esteem\u2014preaching\u2014everybody sees that; or leading the meetings; or organizing things in the life of the church. Everybody sees that; nobody sees the time with the kids like we do. Nobody sees, \u201cAre we going on vacation this year? Let's make sure we take care of that.\u201d Just trying to build out the rhythms of our family so that we have a rhythm that is manageable, that cultivates the love and the care and the grace in our family. Whether it's our vacations, whether it's family time, it just helped me reset things a bit. \r\n\r\nSo now, every year, we set goals for our family: \u201cWhere do we want our family\u2014marriage and family\u2014to go for the year?\u201d We set goals as a couple; as parents; financially; the house, kind of what we're trying to do around the house; spiritually.\r\n\r\n(10:37) We're looking at our lives probably through about the lens of six key categories. We're saying, \u201cOkay, what does God want to do in our family this year?\u201d By us doing that together, I hear her heart; and we can stay aligned. We can look back, and say, \u201cOkay, this is where we're going; this is how we're going to get there\u2026\u201d We can work together to make it happen. I think that crash, or burning out, helps you to say this: \u201cI don't want that to happen; I don't want that feeling, so how do I build in the rhythms and routines to protect my heart; but also, to regard the heart of our family?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (11:09):\r\n\r\nSo Stephanie, walk us through that. You sit down\u2014do you guys\u2014is this on a vacation, where you sit down and go through your goals?\r\n\r\nStephanie (11:15):\r\n\r\nSometimes, it's on a vacation; but then, even before we get to that, we have a talk-time\u2014our talk-time\u2014it's something, weekly, that we do, where we talk through the kids' activities; we talk through what I'm doing this week.\r\n\r\nAnn (11:29):\r\n\r\nYou're looking at your schedules.\r\n\r\nStephanie (11:30):\r\n\r\nHe is the master scheduler, which is great; I love it. But basically, that talk-time starts every Sunday. When our kids were younger, they weren't a part of talk-time; but now, as they got older\u2014I'd probably say late elementary, early middle school\u2014they were a part of talk-time. \r\n\r\nDuring that talk-time, it's kind of our family meeting. It might be: \u201cHey, how can I pray for you?\u201d It could be something as: \u201cOh, I have a test this week,\u201d or \u201cOh, I have to have a conversation with So-and-so; because they were mean to me. And I don't know\u2026\u201d\u2014just talking through that. Just giving an open dialogue with our children. I think that helped immensely. \r\n\r\nAnd then, as far as the goal-setting, that was very essential; because sometimes, as husband and wife, we cannot be on the same page. I might want to do something\u2014\r\n\r\nBryan: Curtains.\r\n\r\nStephanie: Yes, curtains. \r\n\r\nDave (12:23):\r\n\r\nCurtains\u2014you need them\u2014you need some.\r\n\r\nStephanie (12:25):\r\n\r\nRight now, our big thing in our house was wanting to do some things with our backyard. Anytime we've wanted to do something, like super expensive\u2014whatever\u2014he'll be like, \u201cRemember, the backyard.\u201d \u201c That's right; that's right\u2014the backyard\u2014that\u2019s our focus.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (12:41):\r\n\r\nBut when you start talking about marriage kind of stuff, what did that look like?\u2014when you say, \u201cWhat are our goals for our marriage this year?\u201d Because most couples don't do this\u2014we just survive\u2014we're just getting through.\r\n\r\nStephanie (12:55):\r\n\r\nWe\u2019re just trying to make it.\r\n\r\nOur goals for our marriage might be: \u201cWe're going to go to a marriage conference,\u201d or \u201cWe're going to have a date night consistently,\u201d \u201cWe are going to pray for each other consistently,\u201d \u201cWe're going to have a devotion time.\u201d What did I leave off?\r\n\r\nBryan (13:11):\r\n\r\nThat's a good foundation.\r\n\r\nStephanie: There you go. \r\n\r\nBryan: It doesn't have to\u2014those three to four, right there\u2014give us a rhythm that helps protect and strengthen our marriage. Marriage conference, as she mentioned\u2014some years, we might do a married grow group, so a small group of couples that's, not only going to help us, but help those other couples as well\u2014normally, those fortify. That's typically where we try to focus on, in terms of what we want to do for our marriage, specifically. \r\n\r\nAnd then we'll add others:\r\n\r\nAround financial: \u201cWhat was our plan?\u2014financial?\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cWhere are we going, together, as a couple?\u201d \r\n\r\n\u201cParenting: what activities do we want the kids involved in this year that grow them spiritually?\u201d It might be going to a Christian camp. It might be: \u201cThis one here needs some extra tutoring,\u201d or \u201cThis year, this one here; how do we help that child take their next step?\u201d\u2014based on if they have unique gifts and talents\u2014\"How do we develop those unique gifts and talents?\u201d \r\n\r\n(13:55) These six or seven categories help us. They help shape a vision for our house so that we stay aligned and stay connected. \r\n\r\nThe other thing that's happened\u2014my wife always says\u2014we have two vacations every year: we have a vacation with the family; we take them somewhere; and then, we have a vacation for ourselves; that's a couple goal. One time we told our mentor, \u201cWe're going to Disney World.\u201d He said, \u201cNo, no, no; where are you guys\/where are the two of you going on vacation?\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cBecause that\u2019s not vacation.\u201d\r\n\r\nBryan: He said, \u201cThat's work! You guys need to plan a separate vacation, after you come back from that, for you guys.\u201d We've learned stay-cations\u2014we'll stay right in Dallas\u2014\u201cLet\u2019s get a hotel; have a great time.\u201d We've learned how to have time together. \r\n\r\nOh, one more thing that we've learned: couple friends. We prayed\u2014in our 30s, we were so lonely in ministry\u2014we prayed for friends. It was hard; because you're pastoring, you're leading, you're serving. We prayed, and God sent us two couples\u2014two couples that we met, over ten years ago\u2014we vacation together; we spend time together. It's a safe space; we can be transparent. We can be\u2014we don't have to be pastor in this\u2014no titles.\r\n\r\nAnn (15:12):\r\n\r\nDo they go to your church?\r\n\r\nBryan (15:13):\r\n\r\nNeither one go to our church. \r\n\r\nStephanie: That's what makes it great.\r\n\r\nAnn (15:15):\r\n\r\nYeah, yeah.\r\n\r\nBryan (15:16):\r\n\r\nThat makes things better. But having friends\u2014ooh, it's been a blessing\u2014to be able to just be you, and to be able to share, and be authentic, has probably been one of the biggest blessings in our lives.\r\n\r\nDave (15:32):\r\n\r\nWell, we've been speakers at the Weekend to Remember Marriage getaway for 36 years. Every single conference we're a part of, lives are changed.\r\n\r\nAnn (15:41):\r\n\r\nOh, the stories are incredible. Where God meets couples, great things happen. And you know what? There's a sale going on that you are not going to want to miss.\r\n\r\nDave (15:50):\r\n\r\nYeah, the sale is right now\u2014between March 20 and 30\u2014it's 40 percent off. Who doesn't want a deal like that?\r\n\r\nAnn (15:57):\r\n\r\nThat's a good deal.\r\n\r\nDave (15:58):\r\n\r\nNot only will your marriage be changed, but your kids' marriages and your legacy. I'm telling you: it's transformational for your legacy. Go to WeekendToRemember.com and sign up there. You don't need a promo code; just sign up. You'll get 40 percent off between March 20 and 30.\r\n\r\nAnn (16:12):\r\n\r\nAgain, that's WeekendToRemember.com.\r\n\r\nDave (16:19):\r\n\r\nSo often, you hear a couple say, \u201cGod's first\u201d; but that's all they say; there's no action behind it. \u201cWhat's the most important thing in your marriage?\u201d\u2014\"God first.\u201d \u201cOkay; what's that look like?\u201d \u201cI don't know.\u201d \u201cDo you go to church?\u201d \u201cOnce or twice a month.\u201d The average person, we pastors know, it's like 1.3 [Sundays] a month now is the average for church. \r\n\r\nWhen our book came out, we ended up somehow\u2014don't ask me how\u2014on The Today Show. Craig Melvin, who didn't know us, was the host. He looks at us; he asked a great question. He said, \u201cOkay, read your book. So you bring God in your marriage and everything works out. Is that it?\u201d I thought, \u201cThat's a great question,\u201d because that's what it can look like.\r\n\r\n(17:05) \u201cGod first\u201d\u2014you just said\u2014\u201cHere's what \u2018God first looks like: it's in the calendar; it's something we talk about; it\u2019s something we pray about. We vacation; we have community.\u2019\u201d I just want to make sure our listeners heard that; because so many of us say the same thing, and there's no action to it. You are\u2014your relationship's lasting 25 years in\u2014because it isn't just a motto: \u201cGod first,\u201d\u2014no; \u201cThis is what it looks like: \u2018If you're going to do it, it's going to show up. If God's first, it's going to affect my bank account.\u2019\u201d We pastors know you're going to see it in your calendar; you're going to see it in your bank account. \r\n\r\nI just want somebody listening to go back and listen to the last five or seven minutes; and then, have a conversation tonight with your wife, or your husband, and say, \u201cWhat would that look like for the Smiths?\u201d or \u201c\u2026the Wilsons,\u201d\u2014or [whomever]. \u201cWe're not doing that, but we need to be doing some of these things,\u201d or \u201c\u2026all of these things, if we want a relationship that's going to last.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (17:51):\r\n\r\nTalk-time; I like it!\r\n\r\nStephanie (17:51):\r\n\r\nThe talk-time is huge. I think it also helps your children to see it as well.\r\n\r\nDave (17:58):\r\n\r\nOh, yeah.\r\n\r\nStephanie (17:59):\r\n\r\nYour children need to see you setting goals for your family. They need to see you setting goals for: \u201cHow am I going to grow spiritually?\u201d For me, there was a season where I did Bible Study Fellowship. This is before I was a women's ministry director and so on. I was so new to being a pastor's wife, and I just needed a safe place. Bible Study Fellowship was that safe place for me; because you go to Bible Study Fellowship and they can't ask you about church; or you can't say, \u201cAren't you\u2026\u201d I would love my little Bible study leader; she'd be like, \u201cWe don't discuss that here.\u201d I'm like, \u201cYes! We just do Jesus; nothing else.\u201d That was my safe place. \r\n\r\nFor my kids to see me going off to Bible Study Fellowship; and then, that they're staying with their dad instead of I'm getting a babysitter, or my mom is watching them. Them seeing their dad love me enough to say, \u201cHey, babe, I need you to go. I need you to grow, too; and I need you to get filled. I don't want you to worry about the kids, and this, that, this, that.\u201d\r\n\r\nThis is my advice to that wife, or that mom: \u201cLet him do it. He's not going to do it like you want him to do it. Just let him do it.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (19:10):\r\n\r\nIt doesn\u2019t matter what they ate.\r\n\r\nStephanie (19:11):\r\n\r\nIt doesn't matter; I don't care.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: What they dress like. \r\n\r\nStephanie: You're going to leave the house to go do what you need to do.\r\n\r\nDave (19:15):\r\n\r\nWas that hard for you to do?\r\n\r\nStephanie (19:17):\r\n\r\nYes, but I learned a quick lesson\u2014it was with our first child\u2014I would just critique him, and I would nag him. I'm like, \u201cNo, that's not\u2026\u201d \u201cBryan, please...\u201d I'll never forget, there was one time I was doing laundry. I was like, \u201cIf you can just watch Kaitlyn.\u201d He was like, \u201cYeah, yeah. I'm watching the game.\u201d I give him Kaitlyn\u2014she's laying on his chest\u2014he's eating Doritos. This is a bad-dad moment for you; he's wiping the Dorito dust on the back of her onesie. I'm walking through, with the basket of clothes; and I'm like, \u201cShe's a napkin?\u201d \u201cShe's a napkin?\u201d He's like, \u201cWhat?! It's not hurting her; it's on her back.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: \u201cYou're going to wash it later.\u201d \r\n\r\nStephanie: \u201cShe can't reach over. It's not one of those fancy onesies you have for her; it's just a plain onesie,\u201d\u2014using our child as a napkin. \r\n\r\nAnn: And now, you would just let that go. \r\n\r\nStephanie: I would let it go. I learned: \u201cWho cares? It is not hurting her.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: I'm with you; I'm with you. That's some good advice.\r\n\r\nDave (20:19):\r\n\r\nWell, I want to talk about Made to Last principles with parenting. But let me ask you one last thing. You mentioned a safe couple or couples. A lot of couples don't have that. How do you get that, and why is it important? We have that, and it's so critical; but coach some couples\u2014they got to have that; that's really important\u2014so help us.\r\n\r\nBryan (20:42):\r\n\r\nI think they start with prayer. \r\n\r\nStephanie: Yeah, you have to start with prayer. \r\n\r\nBryan: I think a couple has to start praying, now, for God to send that relationship. I think you got to pray for it; I don't think they happen by accident. I think they happen as a result of God's grace into our lives; they're an expression of God on us. \r\n\r\nI think you start out praying; and then, the Lord\u2014you have to take chances\u2014you have to spend some time together; try lunch together. You have to try dinner together; try the families together, and just be open to see how it goes. Sometimes, you got to see\u2014you give it time, to figure out: \u201cIs this the right fit?\u201d It's hard to get four people to really connect well.\r\n\r\nStephanie (21:21):\r\n\r\n\u2014and everybody likes each other\r\n\r\nBryan (21:22):\r\n\r\n\u2014and everybody likes each other. Those are rare situations.\r\n\r\nStephanie (21:25):\r\n\r\nThat's rare; that's why we only have two.\r\n\r\nBryan (21:27):\r\n\r\nAnd we don't necessarily mix the two; they are two distinct, separate relationships. \r\n\r\nI would say, \u201cPray for it\u201d; I would say, \u201cGive it time.\u201d I would say:\r\n\r\n\u201cYou got to be open and honest.\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cBe willing to cultivate that relationship. You've got to protect that relationship; which means, \u2018What happens there, stays there.\u2019 You don't take it outside it and violate that trust.\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cAnd then, you got to be willing to be friendly.\u201d Sometimes you're just like, \u201cWell, I'm going to keep all our stuff\u2014I'm not going to share anything,\u2014I don't know about them.\u201d But you never really build a heart connection without being transparent.\r\n\r\nDave (22:00):\r\n\r\nIn those safe couples, you're vulnerable. You're sharing the junk.\r\n\r\nBryan (22:04):\r\n\r\n\u2014sharing the junk.\r\n\r\nDave (22:05):\r\n\r\nYou're not doing that with everybody, but with those you feel like\r\n\r\nStephanie (22:08):\r\n\r\n\u2014with those, yes.\r\n\r\nDave (22:09):\r\n\r\nAnd that's what's so important. Somebody\u2014\r\n\r\nStephanie: Somebody that you can share with and that you do life with. Two of our couple friends\u2014we each have three kids\u2014and they're all, pretty much, kind of going through the same season. I always believe that you should have someone in your life that's walking ahead of you; walking beside you; and then, of course, somebody that you're pulling up behind you. \r\n\r\nWe have a group of other friends\u2014we forgot to mention them\u2014that we\/all our kids are older kids. We're all in preschool together. We would go on vacations together, and we still do it; but we stopped taking our kids, because it's like four [couples]. Two of us have three kids\u2014no, we have the most kids\u2014and then, there's two couples who only have one kid. They were like, \u201cOh, we take them everywhere.\u201d I'm like, \u201cNo, we're done with this.\u201d We took him to DC; remember that? We went to DC, and that was our last time. We were like\u2014\r\n\r\nBryan (23:00):\r\n\r\n\u2014last trip, kids were too much. \r\n\r\nStephanie (23:01):\r\n\r\nWe were like, \u201cNo more kids,\u201d \u201cNo more kids; this is not vacation for us, guys.\u201d And they're like, \u201cNo.\u201d We're like, \u201cNo, it's not.\u201d So anyway, we go on a couples\u2019 trip with them and stuff; but our kids have been in pre-K together.\r\n\r\nBryan (23:13):\r\n\r\nEvery couple needs a place. \r\n\r\nStephanie: You have to have it.\r\n\r\nBryan: You crave it, where you can just be yourselves, where you can be honest. They don't get mad when you say, \u201cWell, Bryan is not doing this\u201d; and Bryan\u2014I don't get bristled up; I don't get resistant\u2014I say, \u201cYou're right. I probably could do better\u201d; and we can talk through it. You need people to help you.\r\n\r\nDave (23:31):\r\n\r\nAnd she says, \u201cNot probably; you can do better.\u201d\r\n\r\nBryan (23:36):\r\n\r\nBut the accountability of friendship is healthy for you; it's healthy for me. \r\n\r\nDave: You got to have it.\r\n\r\nBryan: You got to have it. You just can't do it in isolation; you can't do it in isolation; it doesn\u2019t work.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:46):\r\n\r\nThis has been so rich, you guys; thank you. \r\n\r\nBryan: Thank you.\r\n\r\nStephanie: Thank you. \r\n\r\nAnn: Lots of great things to apply.\r\n\r\nDave (23:56):\r\n\r\nWell, it's great having Bryan and Stephanie with us again. Just remember: you can get their book; it's a great book.\r\n\r\nAnn (24:03):\r\n\r\nIt's called Made to Last: 8 Principles to Build Long Lasting Relationships.\r\n\r\nDave (24:08):\r\n\r\nAnd you can get it at FamilyLifeToday.com; just click the link in the show notes. I'll tell you what\u2014a lot of people don't know this\u2014but we're on YouTube.\r\n\r\nAnn (24:16):\r\n\r\nI love watching YouTube clips. You get a lot more out of it, I think, when you are watching people.\r\n\r\nDave (24:20):\r\n\r\nAnd the next generation's probably going to watch it rather than just listen to it; you can do either\/or. But if you want to watch and enjoy it\u2014youtube.com\/FamilyLife\u2014just go to youtube.com\/FamilyLife. Or if you're a big YouTube person, just go to YouTube and type in FamilyLife\u2014one word.\r\n\r\nAnn (24:37):\r\n\r\nI put three words on there, and it still worked: FamilyLife Today.\r\n\r\nDave (24:45):\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nCelebrating 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?\r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2026 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife.com\n","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/318130","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=318130"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/295627"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=318130"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=318130"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=318130"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=318130"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=318130"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=318130"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}