{"id":317767,"date":"2026-02-10T08:00:00","date_gmt":"2026-02-10T13:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/how-to-fight-better-your-marriage-conflict-survival-guide-dave-ashley-willis\/"},"modified":"2026-02-11T02:57:36","modified_gmt":"2026-02-11T07:57:36","slug":"how-to-fight-better-your-marriage-conflict-survival-guide-dave-ashley-willis","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-to-fight-better-your-marriage-conflict-survival-guide-dave-ashley-willis\/","title":{"rendered":"How to Fight Better: Your Marriage-Conflict Survival Guide &#8211; Dave &#038; Ashley Willis"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Tired of Jedi mind tricks, cold shoulders, and &#8220;we need to talk&#8221; anxiety ruining your marriage? Every couple brings unhealthy patterns into conflict\u2014avoidance, passive-aggression, mismatched timing\u2014but unresolved issues build resentment fast. Pastor-therapist duo Dave and Ashley Willis know how to help you fight better. They deliver real stories, biblical wisdom, and practical tools for your next blowup.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>On FamilyLife Today, Dave and Ann Wilson host pastor-therapist duo Dave &#038; Ashley Willis. They share real stories, biblical wisdom, and practical tools to fight better and turn blowups into breakthroughs.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":295627,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/c77e0896-e81e-4a74-b816-b3db011b5821\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:24:55","filesize":"22.85M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2082,2902],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[9755],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-317767","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-communication","category-resolving-conflict","cwp_profile-dave-and-ashley-willis","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Cover_1024x1024.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/317767\/how-to-fight-better-your-marriage-conflict-survival-guide-dave-ashley-willis","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/317767\/how-to-fight-better-your-marriage-conflict-survival-guide-dave-ashley-willis","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"DmtVC9KKKW\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-to-fight-better-your-marriage-conflict-survival-guide-dave-ashley-willis\/\">How to Fight Better: Your Marriage-Conflict Survival Guide &#8211; Dave &#038; Ashley Willis<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-to-fight-better-your-marriage-conflict-survival-guide-dave-ashley-willis\/embed\/#?secret=DmtVC9KKKW\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;How to Fight Better: Your Marriage-Conflict Survival Guide &#8211; Dave &#038; Ashley Willis&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"DmtVC9KKKW\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["c77e0896-e81e-4a74-b816-b3db011b5821"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/c77e0896-e81e-4a74-b816-b3db011b5821\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:24:55"],"filesize":["22.85M"],"_thumbnail_id":["295627"],"show_notes":["\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/goodkind.shop\/products\/graticube\">Get your Gratikube<\/a>\u2014 a simple family tool to prompt gratitude and conversation<\/li>\n<li>Discover resources from<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-creator\/dave-willis\/\">Dave Willis<\/a> in our shop<\/li>\n<li>Marriage After Dark: the podcast where a real couple answers the questions you\u2019re too embarrassed to ask. Get it at FamilyLife.com\/MarriageAfterDark<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2026-02-10.pdf"],"transcript_content":["\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nHow to Fight Better: Your Marriage-Conflict Survival Guide\r\n\r\nGuests:Dave and Ashley Willis\r\n\r\nFrom the series:How to Fight Better: Your Marriage-Conflict Survival Guide \r\n\r\n(Day 1 of 1)\r\n\r\nAir date:February 10, 2026\r\n\r\nDave Willis (00:04):\r\n\r\nIf you're approaching any disagreement like\u2014one of you is going to win; one of you is going to lose\u2014you both have lost. Because, in marriage, you're on the same team; you're in the same huddle; you're going to win together or lose together. We had to really realize that: \u201cThis isn't one of us winning; one of us losing. We need to find a way that both of us can win every time.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:26):\r\n\r\nWelcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (00:32):\r\n\r\nAnd I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today. \r\n\r\nDave: Every marriage\/every family has something they bring in, and it's called conflict. Every relationship, at some point, has confrontations and conflict; right?\r\n\r\nAshley (00:56):\r\n\r\nOh, yes.\r\n\r\nDave (00:56):\r\n\r\nThat's why you're here. You're the experts on this.\r\n\r\nAnn: We deemed you! \r\n\r\nAshley: We'll do our best! \r\n\r\nDave (01:02):\r\n\r\nWe chose you out of everybody in the world. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: You two are our experts. \r\n\r\nAshley (01:05):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s right; we look to you.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (01:06):\r\n\r\nWe just learn from you guys; and then, we plagiarize what you say. We go out into the world, and we try to say it in a slightly different way.\r\n\r\nDave: We do the same thing.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:14):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s right. \r\n\r\nDave and Ashley Willis, our friends, are here. We're going to have a great conversation; because every couple needs to know: \u201cWhat do we do when we're in this rush?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:25):\r\n\r\nEvery couple has conflict; very few know how to resolve it.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:27):\r\n\r\nExactly.\r\n\r\nDave (01:28):\r\n\r\nOne of the first things that we learned, and we didn't learn until after our marriage\u2014and we should have known this before\u2014but you bring in a style\/you bring in a pattern of how you do conflict into your marriage. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: Oh, sure. \r\n\r\nDave: What are yours?\r\n\r\nAshley (01:40):\r\n\r\nWell, I kind of put Dave through the ringer, out of the gate. What's so funny: Dave and I met in a communications class, because we both were communications majors.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:49):\r\n\r\nYou guys have a lot of similarities.\r\n\r\nAshley (01:51):\r\n\r\nWe really do; we really do.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (01:53):\r\n\r\nWe're basically the same person.\r\n\r\nAshley (01:55):\r\n\r\nOh, my goodness.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (01:56):\r\n\r\nNo, we have a lot of differences too. We have a lot in common, but there are a lot of differences.\r\n\r\nAshley (02:00):\r\n\r\nThere are a lot of differences. \r\n\r\nWe met in communications class; Dave's a couple years ahead of me. We kind of were naive in thinking, \"Oh, well, we have degrees in communication. We don't need to pay attention in our premarital class on communication.\" God just burst that bubble real fast; because very soon into our marriage, I realized that our dynamic wasn't working. What I would do is play mind games with Dave. I was of the belief that, if he loved me enough, he would figure out my cues, and just know what I needed and wanted.\r\n\r\nDave: That always works. \r\n\r\nAshley: I did Jedi mind-things.\r\n\r\nAnn: Dave\u2019s face is weary. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: It was weary.\r\n\r\nAshley: It was horrible! I would do things. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: I blame Hallmark for this.\r\n\r\nAshley (02:35):\r\n\r\nIt was Hallmark; it was. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: Because, in all of the Hallmark movies, the girl falls in love with the sexy lumberjack from her hometown. And that guy always knows what she's thinking; it's like he just knows. And then, girls watch the Hallmark movies; and they're like, \"Well, Chad from the Hallmark movie would know what I'm thinking.\"\r\n\r\nAshley (02:54):\r\n\r\nYes, I thought he would be like Chad. Dave would be very sweet and come to me. Let's give an example: he would be like, \"Hey, the guys are getting together to watch the game on Thursday night. Are we doing anything? Because I just wanted to check in with you to see if that'd be okay.\u201d \r\n\r\nI would just look at him; I would give him this weird look. I totally repent of this\u2014but I would give you a weird look; and I'd be like, \"Do what you want to do.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: It's a kiss of death!\r\n\r\nAshley: It\u2019s a test; it\u2019s the kiss of death.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (03:23):\r\n\r\nSo I would; I would do what I wanted to do. I took it as an invitation. \r\n\r\nDave: She said it! \r\n\r\nAshley: I know! \r\n\r\nDave Willis: And it wasn't an invitation; it was a test.\r\n\r\nAshley (03:30):\r\n\r\nHe'd come home from the game, and I'd be so mad. \r\n\r\nAnn: He's so happy; he had so much fun.\r\n\r\nAshley (03:35):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nDave Willis: \u201cThank you, sweetie, for letting me go. That was great.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Ashley, were you just cold?\r\n\r\nAshley (03:41):\r\n\r\nYes, I was totally cold. And then, eventually, of course\u2014because he's like, \"What in the world is going on?\"\u2014we'd end up in kind of a little tiff. I would be like, \"You went to the game!\" And he's like, \"You said, \u2018Do what you want to do.\u2019\u2014 \r\n\r\nDave Willis (03:54):\r\n\r\nRight. It was so confusing.\r\n\r\nAshley (03:55):\r\n\r\n\u201cAnd we didn't have anything [on the schedule].\u201d I'm like, \"But you didn't choose me.\" It's basically what I was saying without actually asking for anything I actually needed and wanted. We realized, very quickly, \u201cWe need to handle this differently.\u201d I can't use Jedi mind tricks on him. I need to actually say, \u201cWhat I need from you\u2026\u201d and actually use words and not just have him play this guessing game all the time.\r\n\r\nDave (04:16):\r\n\r\nAre you more of an avoider of conflict?\r\n\r\nAshley (04:19):\r\n\r\nOh, yes. Oh, my goodness; yes, to a fault. Really, looking back, I was that way in my own family. Really, the way my family often would handle conflict was the cold shoulder; and it was the punishing. That was just how it was. I just thought, \u201cWell, this is what you do. The more somebody figures it out, the more they love you.\u201d It's just so silly. \r\n\r\nAnn: You\u2019re doomed to fail.\r\n\r\nDave Willis: I know.\r\n\r\nAshley: Exactly; exactly.\r\n\r\nDave Willis: I know.\r\n\r\nDave (04:45):\r\n\r\nNow, what'd you bring in? \r\n\r\nDave Willis: I married into this family; and I'm just like, \u201cI don't know\u201d; because I came from family where it was just everything was very literal. If you said you're fine\u2014it was all boys\u2014there was no nuance.\r\n\r\nAnn (04:58):\r\n\r\nThis is my family. We said whatever we thought.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (05:01):\r\n\r\n\u201cWe already said it. I said I was fine; I'm fine.\u201d I was so literal that she would say things like, \"We need to mow the yard.\" \r\n\r\nAshley: Yes, \u201cWe\u2026\u201d \r\n\r\nDave Willis: It would confuse me; and I would think, \u201cHow are we going to mow the yard? That's a one-man job.\u201d I thought: \u201cMaybe, she wants us to do it together,\u201d \u201cMaybe, she wants us both to have one hand on the lawnmower and to have this bonding time.\u201d So I would wait; I would just wait. The grass would get taller; and she would say, \"Why isn't the yard mowed?\" I was like, \"I thought we were going to do it.\" And she said, \"No, when I say we need to mow the yard, I mean you need to mow the yard.\" I'm like, \"Oh, okay; I got it!\"\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cJust say it!\u201d\r\n\r\nAshley (05:45):\r\n\r\n\u201cJust tell me.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis (05:47):\r\n\r\nJust saying that makes much more sense; but if you say \u201cwe,\u201d I'm going to think you meant \u201cwe.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014literal. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: I was that literal.\r\n\r\nAnn (05:54):\r\n\r\nAnd then, Dave, are you okay with bringing up something if it needs to be talked about?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (06:00):\r\n\r\nWell, this is the problem.\r\n\r\nAshley: We had a lot! \r\n\r\nAnn: That's a bad way to start the sentence: \u201ca lot.\u201d \r\n\r\nAshley: We had a lot to work through. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: This is a problem, that early on, I would say both of us were avoiders. That's not a great recipe for dealing with stuff; because both of us kind of got in this habit, where we just would try to avoid stuff that needed to be addressed. Neither one would take the lead. It would just come out in these passive\/aggressive ways. Essentially, we both had the same unhealthy communication style when it came to conflict resolution, until it would just come to a head; and then, it was kind of emotionally-charged. \r\n\r\nOver time, we've gotten a lot better about just being clear: addressing stuff before it becomes a big issue. We've gotten better with time; but early on, we were just bad at it. \r\n\r\nAshley (06:54):\r\n\r\nWell, something I would do that was also just not being totally honest with you\u2014and you trying to figure out things\u2014I would tell Dave, [while] he would be ready to leave to go to work in the morning; I would be like, \"Have a great day. And by the way, we need to talk later.\" That's what I would leave him with. And I would have this thing prepared\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: Does that mean: \u201cYou're in trouble\u201d?\r\n\r\nAshley (07:13):\r\n\r\nI mean, he didn't know. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: It would ruin the day.\r\n\r\nAshley (07:14):\r\n\r\nI wouldn't even give a clue. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (07:15):\r\n\r\nLike: \u201cWhat?! We need to talk?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (07:17):\r\n\r\nWhat did you mean by that? \r\n\r\nAshley: Sometimes, it would be good; sometimes, it would be not so good. We didn't have cell phones to text\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Willis: I just had to wait and see.\r\n\r\nAshley: \u2014and give a hint\u2014nothing.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (07:25):\r\n\r\n\u201cWhat could that possibly mean? Gee, we need to talk; we need to talk.\u201d\r\n\r\nAshley (07:27):\r\n\r\nYes, and he would go all day\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Willis (07:28):\r\n\r\n\u2014I\u2019d think about it all day, sweating. \r\n\r\nDave: Yea; \u201cWhat did I do?\u201d \u201cWhat did I say?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis: Sometimes, it was nothing; and sometimes, it was something. I said, \"Just tell me. Give me time to process what it is going to be about.\u201d\r\n\r\nAshley (07:41):\r\n\r\nThen, we would get to the point where he'd finally come; and he would look sweaty and worried. We'd sit down and talk; and then, I would talk about something serious that had been really on my mind; and I'd bring it to him. And then, at the end of it, he would just look at me with this blank stare. I would be like, \"Well, do you have anything to say about that? \" He'd be like, \"I don't know.\" I'd be like, \"Do you even care?\" He's like, \"Of course, I care. I just need time to think about this.\" And then, I would get really upset; because I'm like, \u201cWell, you don\u2019t even care!\u201d \r\n\r\n(08:11) He would walk away, and I would walk away; and it was just a mess. What I realized, though, is that I'm more of a verbal processor; and Dave is more of an internal processor. I just wasn't giving him the time. First of all, I'm giving him this terrible buildup, and not a clue of what we actually need to talk about; so he could come up with something to say, and to really process it, and pray about it. \r\n\r\nBut also, when I would say something, I just didn't realize that he needed time; because he's not me. And even, just as a woman, I have more neurons for language and learning than a man does. We can go\u2014that's a real thing\u2014it's not intelligence; it's just a wiring. That's why most men need to take a minute to go on a walk and think about it, or go on a drive and think about it, or just have some little inkling about what it's about.\r\n\r\n(08:58) Once I realized that, we found a language to really bring out the best in each other. Nowadays, it looks like us saying\u2014I don't do the \u201cWe need to talk,\u201d\u2014I'll be like, \u201cSweetie; hey, \u2018x,\u2019 \u2018y,\u2019 \u2018z,\u2019 happened. I really want to talk about that later. Can you be thinking about that?\u2014because I want us to kind of come to some solution\/resolution, whatever it is.\u201d He'd be like, \"Yes; sounds good.\" We'd pick an actual time, and we would talk about it at that time. Now, if we couldn't do it at that time, we would make sure that we set another time; so we don't leave each other hanging.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (09:29):\r\n\r\nRight. But I knew what it\u2019s about. She was helping me play to my strengths, because\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (09:33):\r\n\r\n\u2014you could process it.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (09:33):\r\n\r\nYes, I could process it. And then, just like StrengthsFinder stuff, strategy is like one that I enjoy. If I have a problem and have time, like adequate time to really think about strategic ways to meet that problem, then I feel like I can actually win here instead of just, all at once, being kind of thrown something; and having, in real time, to process it, and the emotion of it, and everything else. \r\n\r\nIt's just helping your spouse win instead of\u2014if you're approaching any disagreement like it\u2019s something one of you is going to win; one of you is going to lose\u2014you both have lost. Because, in marriage, you're on the same team; you're in the same huddle; you're going to win together or lose together. We had to really realize that: \u201cThis isn't one of us winning; one of us losing. We need to find a way that both of us can win every time, and we want to help each other win. We want to help each other be at our best.\u201d When we started taking that approach, we started winning.\r\n\r\nAnn (10:27):\r\n\r\nI like that; because we went through that same thing, where I'm a verbal processor. I'm sharing every single thing that's going on in my head; I look at Dave, like, \"So what do you think? What do you think about that? What do you feel?\" There's nothing. And I say the same thing, Ashley, like, \"You feel anything?\" He goes\u2014\u201cUgh.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (10:48):\r\n\r\nI didn't know what I felt yet. I hadn't been able to process it.\r\n\r\nAnn (10:52):\r\n\r\nTo me, that felt like: \u201cWell, then you're not even listening,\u201d or \u201cYou don't care,\u201d which isn't fair at all! I had no idea of the processing thing; because the next day, he'd come in: he has all kinds of thoughts, all kinds of ideas.\r\n\r\nDave (11:06):\r\n\r\nIt usually it took me a night\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Willis (11:07):\r\n\r\nYeah, me too.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014not always\u2014but usually, it took me a while. I'd think and think; and then, I'd go back. But she's a verbal processor\u2014anything she thinks\u2014and then, it's just out. \r\n\r\nAnd I'm also\u2014I didn't know I brought it in\u2014but I brought into our marriage a fear of conflict. I grew up in a home with two alcoholic parents; dad had affairs; fights were ugly, and it ended in divorce.\r\n\r\nAnn (11:35):\r\n\r\n\u2014and abusive.\r\n\r\nDave (11:35):\r\n\r\nAgain, I never processed this\u2014as an eight-year-old, ten-year-old, fifteen-year-old\u2014but my belief was: \u201cConflict's bad. You avoid it because it ends like that.\u201d I didn't know I brought that in, and I bring it in. She's like: \"Let's talk about this,\u201d and \u201cLet's talk about that.\" I'm like\u2014I'm, literally, getting scared.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (11:53):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s PTSD from the trauma you went through.\r\n\r\nDave (11:55):\r\n\r\n\u201cWhat do you mean talk?!\u201d I'm, literally, walking out of rooms, like, \u201cThis is what I do.\u201d She came from a family\u2014they just got it out\u2014sort of like yours, Dave. It's just like they talked about it. It was a journey for me to realize: \u201cConflict's not bad. How you handle it determines bad or good.\u201d I was just an avoider; and I had to learn, \u201cNo, you got to sit in the seat, roll up your sleeves, and learn how to communicate and talk.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (12:23):\r\n\r\nThis Valentine's Day, what if you skipped the roses? \r\n\r\nDave Wilson (12:27):\r\n\r\nOkay; that's fine.\r\n\r\nAnn (12:28):\r\n\r\nWell, maybe, not\u2014and you dove into conversations meant to draw you closer\u2014the ones you were secretly too scared to have.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (12:36):\r\n\r\nYeah;  Marriage After Dark is FamilyLife's newest podcast, where a real married couple talks openly about healthy, God-honoring intimacy. Yes, the stuff you never asked your pastor or your friends.\r\n\r\nAnn (12:50):\r\n\r\nFor more, go to FamilyLife.com\/MarriageAfterDark; because intimacy shouldn't stay in the dark. \r\n\r\nAnn: Let's give couples some strategies or questions along the way. One of the questions would be: \u201cHow do we process?\u201d \u201cHow do we deal with our anger?\u201d \u201cWhat do we do?\u201d \r\n\r\nWhat are the options?\u2014like: \u201cYou shut down,\u201d \u201cYou want to talk about it immediately,\u201d\u2014what are some other things people do?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (13:20):\r\n\r\nYeah; I think\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014yell. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: Yeah, yell. There's ones that are just clearly unhealthy, when you just go in attack mode\u2014you're yelling; you're cussing at each other; you're just venting rage\u2014that's always out of bounds. \r\n\r\nBut then, a lot of it's nuanced\u2014it's like personality-based:\r\n\r\nYou want to process it right then.\r\n\r\nYou want to take some time: go for a walk, think about it.\r\n\r\nYou want to sleep on it. \r\n\r\nYou want to have a specific time when you're going to address it.\r\n\r\nI think avoiding it all together is always bad; but then, there's some nuance about different ways that can work, based on the personality of the two people involved.\r\n\r\nAshley (13:58):\r\n\r\nI think there's even a place, too, where it's good to pause, and to really bring it to the Lord, and say: \"God, is this just a problem inside me that I need to just bring to You and deal between God and me?\u201d or \u201cDo I need to actually address this with my spouse?\" Because sometimes, it's more of an internal issue. \r\n\r\nI've really had to learn this; because my avoidant kind of conflict personality\u2014which I do think is also like you, Dave\u2014rooted in fear\/fear of conflict and how it was handled, growing up. A lot of times, early in our relationship, every little thing I felt like I had to talk to Dave about it; because I was so scared that if we didn't, it was never going to be resolved. I remember there was one time, along the way, that you were like, \"Sweetie, not everything is an issue between us.\" He's like, \"Some of this, I feel like, is insecurity in you.\u201d You might have said it nicer than I just said it; but it was very delicate. \r\n\r\nAnn (14:51):\r\n\r\nThat was pretty nice.\r\n\r\nAshley (14:52):\r\n\r\nHowever he said it, it didn't come off to me like he was trying to avoid whatever it was I was trying to address. But it made me take pause because, as he said that, I was like, \"Oh, my goodness; you're right. You're right. Some of this is just my own insecurity.\" \r\n\r\nWorking with people in the counseling space, they'll often ask me: \"Well, how do I know the difference?\" I always tell them, and I've done this myself, is: \u201cTake a week and journal about it. Journal about the thoughts that are swirling in your head. You will see a pattern of what you're dealing with, and you're going to see some things that are really more internal that are just a you-and-God issue. You'll see some things that are actually relational that you need to address with your spouse.\u201d But you don't really know until you take a pause, and assess it, and really ask the Lord to reveal it.\r\n\r\nAnn (15:34):\r\n\r\nAshley, I'm the same way; because I would bring everything up. \r\n\r\nDave: \u2014everything.\r\n\r\nAnn: It must have been extremely exhausting\u2014our kids, too\u2014\u201cMom, just chill it.\u201d \r\n\r\nI think that going to God, in prayer, and asking Him that\u2014that's brilliant to do\u2014I would say, \u201cLord, if this is something between me and You, then let me know that. Let's just us talk about it.\u201d But if it keeps coming up with Dave, over and over: \u201cI'm going to surrender this to You. I don't need to bring it up if we can just figure it out. But if this keeps coming back up with Dave, then give me wisdom to know when to talk about it and how to talk about it.\u201d And He'll do that. Haven't you found that He does that, over and over?\r\n\r\nAshley (16:15):\r\n\r\nYeah, yes. I love how you said \u201cwhen\u201d; because timing is everything. And this is something I learned the hard way; because I'm a night owl, and Dave is not. Dave's really a midday-person. I didn't know it existed until we got married, but some people really peak at 3:00.\r\n\r\nDave (16:28):\r\n\r\n\u201cHe's not good in the mornings; he\u2019s not good at night. He\u2019s good in the afternoon.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cMidday, whew!\u201d\r\n\r\nAshley (16:30):\r\n\r\nHe is midday. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (16:33):\r\n\r\n\u201cI got a 30-minute window, around 3:00 pm, where I'm ready to change the world\u201d; but that's about it.\r\n\r\nAshley (16:37):\r\n\r\nHe really is; he's so thriving. But that\u2019s\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Willis (16:39):\r\n\r\nI start low; I end low; there\u2019s\u2014\r\n\r\nAshley (16:42):\r\n\r\n\u201cSo hit it in the middle.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis (16:43):\r\n\r\n\u201cHit it in the middle,\u201d yeah.\r\n\r\nAshley (16:44):\r\n\r\nBut what's funny\u2014and I think God has a sense of humor\u2014is my lowest capacity energy level of the day is midday.\r\n\r\nDave Willis: \u2014at the same time.  Yes, I'm, literally, like\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (16:54):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s four o\u2019clock. \r\n\r\nAshley: Yes, I\u2019m, literally, like\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: With a mom: four o'clock, we can barely make it.\r\n\r\nAshley (16:56):\r\n\r\nYes; I mean, it's so true.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (16:57):\r\n\r\nGod had a sense of humor. So I don't try to change her by saying, \u201cLet's go mountain climb,\u201d at 3:00 pm. And she's learned to, at 10:00 pm, not initiate a deep conversation; because we're in two completely different places. She's in peak mental capacity, and I\u2019m\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (17:15):\r\n\r\n\u2014and she's been grinding on this. \r\n\r\nAshley: Oh, yes.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (17:17):\r\n\r\nYes; she's ready. Early in the marriage, she was just\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: I would do this, too. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: \u2014she would start in. I'm lying there, in a coma, and she's just wanting to solve these massive issues. I'm just like, \u201cSweetie, I love you. I cannot think right now.\u201d At first, she'd be offended, like, \u201cYou don't care.\u201d And I'm like, \u201cI just can't.\u2014\r\n\r\nAshley (17:37):\r\n\r\n\u201cI can\u2019t form a thought.\u201d \r\n\r\nDave Willis: \u2014 \u201cthis is my rhythm.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: I would even say, \u201cHow can you fall asleep?! God wants us\u201d\u2014I'd put the God-card in\u2014\"God wants us to resolve this.\u201d He goes, \u201cI can't keep my eyes open.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis (17:51):\r\n\r\n\u201cI want to be fully rested for this.\u201d It's not that either of you is wrong\u2014one\u2019s like, \"This is so important; we need to deal with it now\"; and the other one's like, \"I can't think straight; I want to be rested when I deal with this,\"\u2014both of those are legitimate. \r\n\r\nDave (18:05):\r\n\r\nYou think it\u2019s okay to go to bed with an issue\u2014like maybe, mad; maybe angry; maybe, just unresolved\u2014can you go to bed and talk about it tomorrow?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (18:13):\r\n\r\nWell, I mean, the Bible does say, \u201cDon't let the sun go down on your anger.\u201d I don't see that so much as saying a commandment that every issue has to be resolved before you're allowed to go to sleep, because we would never sleep. There's some things that you're going to have to\u2014what I think more of that's doing is saying\u2014\u201cOur anger is meant to have a very short shelf life; we're not meant to live in a state of anger.\u201d\r\n\r\nAshley (18:36):\r\n\r\nYou need to agree\u2014you can go to bed\u2014but you need to agree, and actually write it down, and say, \"Tomorrow, at 11:00 am, we're going to talk about this. We're going to have coffee, and we're going to be mentally ready for that. We're going to prepare, say a prayer before. We're going to be ready to talk about this; but right now, we're going to go to sleep.\" \r\n\r\nI think that alone can bring peace to the person, who really wanted to discuss it right then; because they know it's not just going to get thrown under the rug. I think that's the fear: \u201cOh, it's just another thing we're adding to the list of things that never go resolved.\u201d A lot of couples live this way. I've been really surprised, in working with couples through counseling, how many couples will go a week\u2014like a solid week\u2014without barely talking.\r\n\r\nAnn (19:19):\r\n\r\nOh, Ashley, I think\u2014\r\n\r\nAshley: It happens all the time. \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014've seen the same thing. I just saw a couple, the other day, I'm like, \u201cYou can tell that there's this simmering frustration\/resentment.\u201d\r\n\r\nAshley (19:31):\r\n\r\nOh, yes.\r\n\r\nAnn (19:31):\r\n\r\nYou can feel it. I thought, \u201cThese guys have had ongoing unresolved issues.\u201d\r\n\r\nAshley (19:37):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nAnn (19:38):\r\n\r\nI don't think a lot of people know what to do with it, because there's so many that they haven't resolved. How would they even begin, and where would they begin? What do you think?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (19:47):\r\n\r\nI kind of look at it\u2014to borrow a Dave Ramsey metaphor from the finance world\u2014debt snowball: pay off the smallest debt; and then, work up to the next smallest debt, and all that. I think that that same principle can apply for these unresolved issues. \r\n\r\nWhen you look at\u2014in our case, the financial debt that had gotten so big, and you look at it all at once, it just seems overwhelming\u2014and you think, \u201cWhat's the point?\u201d I think some people live that way. But with the issues you're facing in your marriage, look at the smallest ones first, maybe, and say, \"Let's tackle this one and get a win under our belt.\u201d And then, let that snowball; and then, \u201cLet's tackle the next one,\u201d and get that one under our belt; and keep moving forward, little by little, chipping away at this, and celebrating the wins along the way, knowing that some of these issues don't even have to do with each other. \r\n\r\nAshley: Exactly.\r\n\r\nDave Willis: I mean, this is maybe trauma from our childhood\u2014these issues that are deeply rooted within us\u2014that it took years for them to get where they are. It is going to probably take years for them to fully find healing, but we're going to keep moving in that direction, and not beat ourselves up that it's this huge mountain we're going to climb. We're going to say, \"Hey, we're taking steps up that mountain today; and tomorrow, we'll take some more steps. We're going to celebrate those wins, little by little.\"\r\n\r\nDave (21:01):\r\n\r\nWe don't have a lot of time left; but a big issue in conflict is a word we all know, \u201cforgiveness.\u201d Discuss that: \u201cHave you had to forgive?\u201d \u201cHow do you forgive?\u201d Couples are carrying bitterness\u2014maybe, for days, weeks, months, decades\u2014and at some point, you've got to bring God in, and say: \"I've got to forgive her,\u201d \u201cI got to forgive him.\" You've talked about even the porn-thing before in your marriage. How does a couple get to a place where they can forgive one another?\r\n\r\nAshley (21:32):\r\n\r\nOne of my favorite quotes on forgiveness is from St. Augustine; I'm sure you've heard this quote. It says, \"Holding a grudge is like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies.\" And so I look at unforgiveness the same way, just holding on to these things; because, in some way, I think we're convinced\u2014and this is a lie from the enemy\u2014but we're convinced that, if we let it go, then we're letting them off the hook. But we have to remember that God is a just God and we have natural consequences in place. We have to give it to the Lord, and say, \"God, You deal with my spouse and whatever it is that they did. I am hurt, but I'm going to let this go in the sense of knowing that You're dealing with them personally. It's not my job to have to hold this over their head.\" In fact, it\u2019s not a burden I\u2019m even meant to bear. Because we can't walk freely, and we can't even love freely, in the way that our spouse really needs us to in order for them to get the healing they need and to make amends. \r\n\r\nI think too, as a culture, we misunderstand that forgiveness and trust are two different things. I think a lot of times we don't fully forgive because we can't trust yet, but forgiveness and trust are two different things. Forgiveness is only given because God first forgave us, but trust has to be earned. We don't just willy-nilly give trust. It has to be earned over time with consistency, where our words and actions are consistent over time. Dave did that with the porn issue that we've talked about on here before; but even in smaller things, like being willing to say, \"Yeah, that didn't go right and that hurt me\u2014what you said hurt me\u2014but I'm going to give this to God, and I want us to do better.\" And when we show each other that we believe we can do better, you can rebuild that trust, slowly, over time.\r\n\r\n(23:08) I think it's just important that we try to seek forgiveness, and we try to apologize quickly; and then, accept that forgiveness. It's important that we don't allow things like that to come between us. I do think couples live for decades like this\u2014almost kind of holding it over each other's head and keeping tabs\u2014and it's just not healthy. It creates that undercurrent of resentment you talked about, Ann.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:30):\r\n\r\nYeah. I think that there's\u2014you can just tell that there's resentment toward each other\u2014and they don't like each other. You can see it, as they get older; they just don't really care to be around each other or like each other. We all drift toward isolation, but we can all move back; and it's never too late to do that.\r\n\r\nAshley (23:49):\r\n\r\nRight.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:49):\r\n\r\nThis has been rich! We could just do this together every time. \r\n\r\nAshley: I love it.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (23:55):\r\n\r\nYeah; we love you guys.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:56):\r\n\r\nWe love you guys, too. \r\n\r\nAshley: Thanks. \r\n\r\nAnn: I think this has been really helpful. Thanks, you guys.\r\n\r\nDave (24:01):\r\n\r\nLet me just say this to the listener: \u201cEvery single day, families around the world are facing real struggles. FamilyLife is here with gospel-centered help and hope. And when you become a FamilyLife Partner, your monthly support fuels this work.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (24:15):\r\n\r\nAnd with your monthly gift, you'll become a part of a community that receives insider updates, which is pretty amazing.\r\n\r\nDave (24:23):\r\n\r\nYes, it is.\r\n\r\nAnn (24:23):\r\n\r\nAnd who doesn't want to be a part of an insider community? You also get invitations to special events and more; because together, we're helping families really grow stronger in Christ. So join us.\r\n\r\nDave (24:37):\r\n\r\nYeah, just go to FamilyLifeToday.com; and tap the \u201cDonate\u201d button at the top of the page.\r\n\r\nAnn (24:45):\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nFifty years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?\r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2026 FamilyLife. 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FamilyLife Today, Dave and Ann Wilson host pastor-therapist duo Dave & Ashley Willis. They share real stories, biblical wisdom, and practical tools to fight better and turn blowups into breakthroughs.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/goodkind.shop\/products\/graticube\">Get your Gratikube<\/a>\u2014 a simple family tool to prompt gratitude and conversation<\/li>\n<li>Discover resources from<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-creator\/dave-willis\/\">Dave Willis<\/a> in our shop<\/li>\n<li>Marriage After Dark: the podcast where a real couple answers the questions you\u2019re too embarrassed to ask. Get it at FamilyLife.com\/MarriageAfterDark<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2026-02-10.pdf","transcript_content":"\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nHow to Fight Better: Your Marriage-Conflict Survival Guide\r\n\r\nGuests:Dave and Ashley Willis\r\n\r\nFrom the series:How to Fight Better: Your Marriage-Conflict Survival Guide \r\n\r\n(Day 1 of 1)\r\n\r\nAir date:February 10, 2026\r\n\r\nDave Willis (00:04):\r\n\r\nIf you're approaching any disagreement like\u2014one of you is going to win; one of you is going to lose\u2014you both have lost. Because, in marriage, you're on the same team; you're in the same huddle; you're going to win together or lose together. We had to really realize that: \u201cThis isn't one of us winning; one of us losing. We need to find a way that both of us can win every time.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:26):\r\n\r\nWelcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (00:32):\r\n\r\nAnd I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today. \r\n\r\nDave: Every marriage\/every family has something they bring in, and it's called conflict. Every relationship, at some point, has confrontations and conflict; right?\r\n\r\nAshley (00:56):\r\n\r\nOh, yes.\r\n\r\nDave (00:56):\r\n\r\nThat's why you're here. You're the experts on this.\r\n\r\nAnn: We deemed you! \r\n\r\nAshley: We'll do our best! \r\n\r\nDave (01:02):\r\n\r\nWe chose you out of everybody in the world. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: You two are our experts. \r\n\r\nAshley (01:05):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s right; we look to you.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (01:06):\r\n\r\nWe just learn from you guys; and then, we plagiarize what you say. We go out into the world, and we try to say it in a slightly different way.\r\n\r\nDave: We do the same thing.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:14):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s right. \r\n\r\nDave and Ashley Willis, our friends, are here. We're going to have a great conversation; because every couple needs to know: \u201cWhat do we do when we're in this rush?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:25):\r\n\r\nEvery couple has conflict; very few know how to resolve it.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:27):\r\n\r\nExactly.\r\n\r\nDave (01:28):\r\n\r\nOne of the first things that we learned, and we didn't learn until after our marriage\u2014and we should have known this before\u2014but you bring in a style\/you bring in a pattern of how you do conflict into your marriage. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: Oh, sure. \r\n\r\nDave: What are yours?\r\n\r\nAshley (01:40):\r\n\r\nWell, I kind of put Dave through the ringer, out of the gate. What's so funny: Dave and I met in a communications class, because we both were communications majors.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:49):\r\n\r\nYou guys have a lot of similarities.\r\n\r\nAshley (01:51):\r\n\r\nWe really do; we really do.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (01:53):\r\n\r\nWe're basically the same person.\r\n\r\nAshley (01:55):\r\n\r\nOh, my goodness.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (01:56):\r\n\r\nNo, we have a lot of differences too. We have a lot in common, but there are a lot of differences.\r\n\r\nAshley (02:00):\r\n\r\nThere are a lot of differences. \r\n\r\nWe met in communications class; Dave's a couple years ahead of me. We kind of were naive in thinking, \"Oh, well, we have degrees in communication. We don't need to pay attention in our premarital class on communication.\" God just burst that bubble real fast; because very soon into our marriage, I realized that our dynamic wasn't working. What I would do is play mind games with Dave. I was of the belief that, if he loved me enough, he would figure out my cues, and just know what I needed and wanted.\r\n\r\nDave: That always works. \r\n\r\nAshley: I did Jedi mind-things.\r\n\r\nAnn: Dave\u2019s face is weary. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: It was weary.\r\n\r\nAshley: It was horrible! I would do things. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: I blame Hallmark for this.\r\n\r\nAshley (02:35):\r\n\r\nIt was Hallmark; it was. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: Because, in all of the Hallmark movies, the girl falls in love with the sexy lumberjack from her hometown. And that guy always knows what she's thinking; it's like he just knows. And then, girls watch the Hallmark movies; and they're like, \"Well, Chad from the Hallmark movie would know what I'm thinking.\"\r\n\r\nAshley (02:54):\r\n\r\nYes, I thought he would be like Chad. Dave would be very sweet and come to me. Let's give an example: he would be like, \"Hey, the guys are getting together to watch the game on Thursday night. Are we doing anything? Because I just wanted to check in with you to see if that'd be okay.\u201d \r\n\r\nI would just look at him; I would give him this weird look. I totally repent of this\u2014but I would give you a weird look; and I'd be like, \"Do what you want to do.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: It's a kiss of death!\r\n\r\nAshley: It\u2019s a test; it\u2019s the kiss of death.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (03:23):\r\n\r\nSo I would; I would do what I wanted to do. I took it as an invitation. \r\n\r\nDave: She said it! \r\n\r\nAshley: I know! \r\n\r\nDave Willis: And it wasn't an invitation; it was a test.\r\n\r\nAshley (03:30):\r\n\r\nHe'd come home from the game, and I'd be so mad. \r\n\r\nAnn: He's so happy; he had so much fun.\r\n\r\nAshley (03:35):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nDave Willis: \u201cThank you, sweetie, for letting me go. That was great.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Ashley, were you just cold?\r\n\r\nAshley (03:41):\r\n\r\nYes, I was totally cold. And then, eventually, of course\u2014because he's like, \"What in the world is going on?\"\u2014we'd end up in kind of a little tiff. I would be like, \"You went to the game!\" And he's like, \"You said, \u2018Do what you want to do.\u2019\u2014 \r\n\r\nDave Willis (03:54):\r\n\r\nRight. It was so confusing.\r\n\r\nAshley (03:55):\r\n\r\n\u201cAnd we didn't have anything [on the schedule].\u201d I'm like, \"But you didn't choose me.\" It's basically what I was saying without actually asking for anything I actually needed and wanted. We realized, very quickly, \u201cWe need to handle this differently.\u201d I can't use Jedi mind tricks on him. I need to actually say, \u201cWhat I need from you\u2026\u201d and actually use words and not just have him play this guessing game all the time.\r\n\r\nDave (04:16):\r\n\r\nAre you more of an avoider of conflict?\r\n\r\nAshley (04:19):\r\n\r\nOh, yes. Oh, my goodness; yes, to a fault. Really, looking back, I was that way in my own family. Really, the way my family often would handle conflict was the cold shoulder; and it was the punishing. That was just how it was. I just thought, \u201cWell, this is what you do. The more somebody figures it out, the more they love you.\u201d It's just so silly. \r\n\r\nAnn: You\u2019re doomed to fail.\r\n\r\nDave Willis: I know.\r\n\r\nAshley: Exactly; exactly.\r\n\r\nDave Willis: I know.\r\n\r\nDave (04:45):\r\n\r\nNow, what'd you bring in? \r\n\r\nDave Willis: I married into this family; and I'm just like, \u201cI don't know\u201d; because I came from family where it was just everything was very literal. If you said you're fine\u2014it was all boys\u2014there was no nuance.\r\n\r\nAnn (04:58):\r\n\r\nThis is my family. We said whatever we thought.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (05:01):\r\n\r\n\u201cWe already said it. I said I was fine; I'm fine.\u201d I was so literal that she would say things like, \"We need to mow the yard.\" \r\n\r\nAshley: Yes, \u201cWe\u2026\u201d \r\n\r\nDave Willis: It would confuse me; and I would think, \u201cHow are we going to mow the yard? That's a one-man job.\u201d I thought: \u201cMaybe, she wants us to do it together,\u201d \u201cMaybe, she wants us both to have one hand on the lawnmower and to have this bonding time.\u201d So I would wait; I would just wait. The grass would get taller; and she would say, \"Why isn't the yard mowed?\" I was like, \"I thought we were going to do it.\" And she said, \"No, when I say we need to mow the yard, I mean you need to mow the yard.\" I'm like, \"Oh, okay; I got it!\"\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cJust say it!\u201d\r\n\r\nAshley (05:45):\r\n\r\n\u201cJust tell me.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis (05:47):\r\n\r\nJust saying that makes much more sense; but if you say \u201cwe,\u201d I'm going to think you meant \u201cwe.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014literal. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: I was that literal.\r\n\r\nAnn (05:54):\r\n\r\nAnd then, Dave, are you okay with bringing up something if it needs to be talked about?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (06:00):\r\n\r\nWell, this is the problem.\r\n\r\nAshley: We had a lot! \r\n\r\nAnn: That's a bad way to start the sentence: \u201ca lot.\u201d \r\n\r\nAshley: We had a lot to work through. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: This is a problem, that early on, I would say both of us were avoiders. That's not a great recipe for dealing with stuff; because both of us kind of got in this habit, where we just would try to avoid stuff that needed to be addressed. Neither one would take the lead. It would just come out in these passive\/aggressive ways. Essentially, we both had the same unhealthy communication style when it came to conflict resolution, until it would just come to a head; and then, it was kind of emotionally-charged. \r\n\r\nOver time, we've gotten a lot better about just being clear: addressing stuff before it becomes a big issue. We've gotten better with time; but early on, we were just bad at it. \r\n\r\nAshley (06:54):\r\n\r\nWell, something I would do that was also just not being totally honest with you\u2014and you trying to figure out things\u2014I would tell Dave, [while] he would be ready to leave to go to work in the morning; I would be like, \"Have a great day. And by the way, we need to talk later.\" That's what I would leave him with. And I would have this thing prepared\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: Does that mean: \u201cYou're in trouble\u201d?\r\n\r\nAshley (07:13):\r\n\r\nI mean, he didn't know. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: It would ruin the day.\r\n\r\nAshley (07:14):\r\n\r\nI wouldn't even give a clue. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (07:15):\r\n\r\nLike: \u201cWhat?! We need to talk?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (07:17):\r\n\r\nWhat did you mean by that? \r\n\r\nAshley: Sometimes, it would be good; sometimes, it would be not so good. We didn't have cell phones to text\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Willis: I just had to wait and see.\r\n\r\nAshley: \u2014and give a hint\u2014nothing.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (07:25):\r\n\r\n\u201cWhat could that possibly mean? Gee, we need to talk; we need to talk.\u201d\r\n\r\nAshley (07:27):\r\n\r\nYes, and he would go all day\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Willis (07:28):\r\n\r\n\u2014I\u2019d think about it all day, sweating. \r\n\r\nDave: Yea; \u201cWhat did I do?\u201d \u201cWhat did I say?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis: Sometimes, it was nothing; and sometimes, it was something. I said, \"Just tell me. Give me time to process what it is going to be about.\u201d\r\n\r\nAshley (07:41):\r\n\r\nThen, we would get to the point where he'd finally come; and he would look sweaty and worried. We'd sit down and talk; and then, I would talk about something serious that had been really on my mind; and I'd bring it to him. And then, at the end of it, he would just look at me with this blank stare. I would be like, \"Well, do you have anything to say about that? \" He'd be like, \"I don't know.\" I'd be like, \"Do you even care?\" He's like, \"Of course, I care. I just need time to think about this.\" And then, I would get really upset; because I'm like, \u201cWell, you don\u2019t even care!\u201d \r\n\r\n(08:11) He would walk away, and I would walk away; and it was just a mess. What I realized, though, is that I'm more of a verbal processor; and Dave is more of an internal processor. I just wasn't giving him the time. First of all, I'm giving him this terrible buildup, and not a clue of what we actually need to talk about; so he could come up with something to say, and to really process it, and pray about it. \r\n\r\nBut also, when I would say something, I just didn't realize that he needed time; because he's not me. And even, just as a woman, I have more neurons for language and learning than a man does. We can go\u2014that's a real thing\u2014it's not intelligence; it's just a wiring. That's why most men need to take a minute to go on a walk and think about it, or go on a drive and think about it, or just have some little inkling about what it's about.\r\n\r\n(08:58) Once I realized that, we found a language to really bring out the best in each other. Nowadays, it looks like us saying\u2014I don't do the \u201cWe need to talk,\u201d\u2014I'll be like, \u201cSweetie; hey, \u2018x,\u2019 \u2018y,\u2019 \u2018z,\u2019 happened. I really want to talk about that later. Can you be thinking about that?\u2014because I want us to kind of come to some solution\/resolution, whatever it is.\u201d He'd be like, \"Yes; sounds good.\" We'd pick an actual time, and we would talk about it at that time. Now, if we couldn't do it at that time, we would make sure that we set another time; so we don't leave each other hanging.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (09:29):\r\n\r\nRight. But I knew what it\u2019s about. She was helping me play to my strengths, because\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (09:33):\r\n\r\n\u2014you could process it.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (09:33):\r\n\r\nYes, I could process it. And then, just like StrengthsFinder stuff, strategy is like one that I enjoy. If I have a problem and have time, like adequate time to really think about strategic ways to meet that problem, then I feel like I can actually win here instead of just, all at once, being kind of thrown something; and having, in real time, to process it, and the emotion of it, and everything else. \r\n\r\nIt's just helping your spouse win instead of\u2014if you're approaching any disagreement like it\u2019s something one of you is going to win; one of you is going to lose\u2014you both have lost. Because, in marriage, you're on the same team; you're in the same huddle; you're going to win together or lose together. We had to really realize that: \u201cThis isn't one of us winning; one of us losing. We need to find a way that both of us can win every time, and we want to help each other win. We want to help each other be at our best.\u201d When we started taking that approach, we started winning.\r\n\r\nAnn (10:27):\r\n\r\nI like that; because we went through that same thing, where I'm a verbal processor. I'm sharing every single thing that's going on in my head; I look at Dave, like, \"So what do you think? What do you think about that? What do you feel?\" There's nothing. And I say the same thing, Ashley, like, \"You feel anything?\" He goes\u2014\u201cUgh.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (10:48):\r\n\r\nI didn't know what I felt yet. I hadn't been able to process it.\r\n\r\nAnn (10:52):\r\n\r\nTo me, that felt like: \u201cWell, then you're not even listening,\u201d or \u201cYou don't care,\u201d which isn't fair at all! I had no idea of the processing thing; because the next day, he'd come in: he has all kinds of thoughts, all kinds of ideas.\r\n\r\nDave (11:06):\r\n\r\nIt usually it took me a night\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Willis (11:07):\r\n\r\nYeah, me too.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014not always\u2014but usually, it took me a while. I'd think and think; and then, I'd go back. But she's a verbal processor\u2014anything she thinks\u2014and then, it's just out. \r\n\r\nAnd I'm also\u2014I didn't know I brought it in\u2014but I brought into our marriage a fear of conflict. I grew up in a home with two alcoholic parents; dad had affairs; fights were ugly, and it ended in divorce.\r\n\r\nAnn (11:35):\r\n\r\n\u2014and abusive.\r\n\r\nDave (11:35):\r\n\r\nAgain, I never processed this\u2014as an eight-year-old, ten-year-old, fifteen-year-old\u2014but my belief was: \u201cConflict's bad. You avoid it because it ends like that.\u201d I didn't know I brought that in, and I bring it in. She's like: \"Let's talk about this,\u201d and \u201cLet's talk about that.\" I'm like\u2014I'm, literally, getting scared.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (11:53):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s PTSD from the trauma you went through.\r\n\r\nDave (11:55):\r\n\r\n\u201cWhat do you mean talk?!\u201d I'm, literally, walking out of rooms, like, \u201cThis is what I do.\u201d She came from a family\u2014they just got it out\u2014sort of like yours, Dave. It's just like they talked about it. It was a journey for me to realize: \u201cConflict's not bad. How you handle it determines bad or good.\u201d I was just an avoider; and I had to learn, \u201cNo, you got to sit in the seat, roll up your sleeves, and learn how to communicate and talk.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (12:23):\r\n\r\nThis Valentine's Day, what if you skipped the roses? \r\n\r\nDave Wilson (12:27):\r\n\r\nOkay; that's fine.\r\n\r\nAnn (12:28):\r\n\r\nWell, maybe, not\u2014and you dove into conversations meant to draw you closer\u2014the ones you were secretly too scared to have.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (12:36):\r\n\r\nYeah;  Marriage After Dark is FamilyLife's newest podcast, where a real married couple talks openly about healthy, God-honoring intimacy. Yes, the stuff you never asked your pastor or your friends.\r\n\r\nAnn (12:50):\r\n\r\nFor more, go to FamilyLife.com\/MarriageAfterDark; because intimacy shouldn't stay in the dark. \r\n\r\nAnn: Let's give couples some strategies or questions along the way. One of the questions would be: \u201cHow do we process?\u201d \u201cHow do we deal with our anger?\u201d \u201cWhat do we do?\u201d \r\n\r\nWhat are the options?\u2014like: \u201cYou shut down,\u201d \u201cYou want to talk about it immediately,\u201d\u2014what are some other things people do?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (13:20):\r\n\r\nYeah; I think\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014yell. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: Yeah, yell. There's ones that are just clearly unhealthy, when you just go in attack mode\u2014you're yelling; you're cussing at each other; you're just venting rage\u2014that's always out of bounds. \r\n\r\nBut then, a lot of it's nuanced\u2014it's like personality-based:\r\n\r\nYou want to process it right then.\r\n\r\nYou want to take some time: go for a walk, think about it.\r\n\r\nYou want to sleep on it. \r\n\r\nYou want to have a specific time when you're going to address it.\r\n\r\nI think avoiding it all together is always bad; but then, there's some nuance about different ways that can work, based on the personality of the two people involved.\r\n\r\nAshley (13:58):\r\n\r\nI think there's even a place, too, where it's good to pause, and to really bring it to the Lord, and say: \"God, is this just a problem inside me that I need to just bring to You and deal between God and me?\u201d or \u201cDo I need to actually address this with my spouse?\" Because sometimes, it's more of an internal issue. \r\n\r\nI've really had to learn this; because my avoidant kind of conflict personality\u2014which I do think is also like you, Dave\u2014rooted in fear\/fear of conflict and how it was handled, growing up. A lot of times, early in our relationship, every little thing I felt like I had to talk to Dave about it; because I was so scared that if we didn't, it was never going to be resolved. I remember there was one time, along the way, that you were like, \"Sweetie, not everything is an issue between us.\" He's like, \"Some of this, I feel like, is insecurity in you.\u201d You might have said it nicer than I just said it; but it was very delicate. \r\n\r\nAnn (14:51):\r\n\r\nThat was pretty nice.\r\n\r\nAshley (14:52):\r\n\r\nHowever he said it, it didn't come off to me like he was trying to avoid whatever it was I was trying to address. But it made me take pause because, as he said that, I was like, \"Oh, my goodness; you're right. You're right. Some of this is just my own insecurity.\" \r\n\r\nWorking with people in the counseling space, they'll often ask me: \"Well, how do I know the difference?\" I always tell them, and I've done this myself, is: \u201cTake a week and journal about it. Journal about the thoughts that are swirling in your head. You will see a pattern of what you're dealing with, and you're going to see some things that are really more internal that are just a you-and-God issue. You'll see some things that are actually relational that you need to address with your spouse.\u201d But you don't really know until you take a pause, and assess it, and really ask the Lord to reveal it.\r\n\r\nAnn (15:34):\r\n\r\nAshley, I'm the same way; because I would bring everything up. \r\n\r\nDave: \u2014everything.\r\n\r\nAnn: It must have been extremely exhausting\u2014our kids, too\u2014\u201cMom, just chill it.\u201d \r\n\r\nI think that going to God, in prayer, and asking Him that\u2014that's brilliant to do\u2014I would say, \u201cLord, if this is something between me and You, then let me know that. Let's just us talk about it.\u201d But if it keeps coming up with Dave, over and over: \u201cI'm going to surrender this to You. I don't need to bring it up if we can just figure it out. But if this keeps coming back up with Dave, then give me wisdom to know when to talk about it and how to talk about it.\u201d And He'll do that. Haven't you found that He does that, over and over?\r\n\r\nAshley (16:15):\r\n\r\nYeah, yes. I love how you said \u201cwhen\u201d; because timing is everything. And this is something I learned the hard way; because I'm a night owl, and Dave is not. Dave's really a midday-person. I didn't know it existed until we got married, but some people really peak at 3:00.\r\n\r\nDave (16:28):\r\n\r\n\u201cHe's not good in the mornings; he\u2019s not good at night. He\u2019s good in the afternoon.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cMidday, whew!\u201d\r\n\r\nAshley (16:30):\r\n\r\nHe is midday. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (16:33):\r\n\r\n\u201cI got a 30-minute window, around 3:00 pm, where I'm ready to change the world\u201d; but that's about it.\r\n\r\nAshley (16:37):\r\n\r\nHe really is; he's so thriving. But that\u2019s\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Willis (16:39):\r\n\r\nI start low; I end low; there\u2019s\u2014\r\n\r\nAshley (16:42):\r\n\r\n\u201cSo hit it in the middle.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis (16:43):\r\n\r\n\u201cHit it in the middle,\u201d yeah.\r\n\r\nAshley (16:44):\r\n\r\nBut what's funny\u2014and I think God has a sense of humor\u2014is my lowest capacity energy level of the day is midday.\r\n\r\nDave Willis: \u2014at the same time.  Yes, I'm, literally, like\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (16:54):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s four o\u2019clock. \r\n\r\nAshley: Yes, I\u2019m, literally, like\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: With a mom: four o'clock, we can barely make it.\r\n\r\nAshley (16:56):\r\n\r\nYes; I mean, it's so true.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (16:57):\r\n\r\nGod had a sense of humor. So I don't try to change her by saying, \u201cLet's go mountain climb,\u201d at 3:00 pm. And she's learned to, at 10:00 pm, not initiate a deep conversation; because we're in two completely different places. She's in peak mental capacity, and I\u2019m\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (17:15):\r\n\r\n\u2014and she's been grinding on this. \r\n\r\nAshley: Oh, yes.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (17:17):\r\n\r\nYes; she's ready. Early in the marriage, she was just\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: I would do this, too. \r\n\r\nDave Willis: \u2014she would start in. I'm lying there, in a coma, and she's just wanting to solve these massive issues. I'm just like, \u201cSweetie, I love you. I cannot think right now.\u201d At first, she'd be offended, like, \u201cYou don't care.\u201d And I'm like, \u201cI just can't.\u2014\r\n\r\nAshley (17:37):\r\n\r\n\u201cI can\u2019t form a thought.\u201d \r\n\r\nDave Willis: \u2014 \u201cthis is my rhythm.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: I would even say, \u201cHow can you fall asleep?! God wants us\u201d\u2014I'd put the God-card in\u2014\"God wants us to resolve this.\u201d He goes, \u201cI can't keep my eyes open.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis (17:51):\r\n\r\n\u201cI want to be fully rested for this.\u201d It's not that either of you is wrong\u2014one\u2019s like, \"This is so important; we need to deal with it now\"; and the other one's like, \"I can't think straight; I want to be rested when I deal with this,\"\u2014both of those are legitimate. \r\n\r\nDave (18:05):\r\n\r\nYou think it\u2019s okay to go to bed with an issue\u2014like maybe, mad; maybe angry; maybe, just unresolved\u2014can you go to bed and talk about it tomorrow?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (18:13):\r\n\r\nWell, I mean, the Bible does say, \u201cDon't let the sun go down on your anger.\u201d I don't see that so much as saying a commandment that every issue has to be resolved before you're allowed to go to sleep, because we would never sleep. There's some things that you're going to have to\u2014what I think more of that's doing is saying\u2014\u201cOur anger is meant to have a very short shelf life; we're not meant to live in a state of anger.\u201d\r\n\r\nAshley (18:36):\r\n\r\nYou need to agree\u2014you can go to bed\u2014but you need to agree, and actually write it down, and say, \"Tomorrow, at 11:00 am, we're going to talk about this. We're going to have coffee, and we're going to be mentally ready for that. We're going to prepare, say a prayer before. We're going to be ready to talk about this; but right now, we're going to go to sleep.\" \r\n\r\nI think that alone can bring peace to the person, who really wanted to discuss it right then; because they know it's not just going to get thrown under the rug. I think that's the fear: \u201cOh, it's just another thing we're adding to the list of things that never go resolved.\u201d A lot of couples live this way. I've been really surprised, in working with couples through counseling, how many couples will go a week\u2014like a solid week\u2014without barely talking.\r\n\r\nAnn (19:19):\r\n\r\nOh, Ashley, I think\u2014\r\n\r\nAshley: It happens all the time. \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014've seen the same thing. I just saw a couple, the other day, I'm like, \u201cYou can tell that there's this simmering frustration\/resentment.\u201d\r\n\r\nAshley (19:31):\r\n\r\nOh, yes.\r\n\r\nAnn (19:31):\r\n\r\nYou can feel it. I thought, \u201cThese guys have had ongoing unresolved issues.\u201d\r\n\r\nAshley (19:37):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nAnn (19:38):\r\n\r\nI don't think a lot of people know what to do with it, because there's so many that they haven't resolved. How would they even begin, and where would they begin? What do you think?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (19:47):\r\n\r\nI kind of look at it\u2014to borrow a Dave Ramsey metaphor from the finance world\u2014debt snowball: pay off the smallest debt; and then, work up to the next smallest debt, and all that. I think that that same principle can apply for these unresolved issues. \r\n\r\nWhen you look at\u2014in our case, the financial debt that had gotten so big, and you look at it all at once, it just seems overwhelming\u2014and you think, \u201cWhat's the point?\u201d I think some people live that way. But with the issues you're facing in your marriage, look at the smallest ones first, maybe, and say, \"Let's tackle this one and get a win under our belt.\u201d And then, let that snowball; and then, \u201cLet's tackle the next one,\u201d and get that one under our belt; and keep moving forward, little by little, chipping away at this, and celebrating the wins along the way, knowing that some of these issues don't even have to do with each other. \r\n\r\nAshley: Exactly.\r\n\r\nDave Willis: I mean, this is maybe trauma from our childhood\u2014these issues that are deeply rooted within us\u2014that it took years for them to get where they are. It is going to probably take years for them to fully find healing, but we're going to keep moving in that direction, and not beat ourselves up that it's this huge mountain we're going to climb. We're going to say, \"Hey, we're taking steps up that mountain today; and tomorrow, we'll take some more steps. We're going to celebrate those wins, little by little.\"\r\n\r\nDave (21:01):\r\n\r\nWe don't have a lot of time left; but a big issue in conflict is a word we all know, \u201cforgiveness.\u201d Discuss that: \u201cHave you had to forgive?\u201d \u201cHow do you forgive?\u201d Couples are carrying bitterness\u2014maybe, for days, weeks, months, decades\u2014and at some point, you've got to bring God in, and say: \"I've got to forgive her,\u201d \u201cI got to forgive him.\" You've talked about even the porn-thing before in your marriage. How does a couple get to a place where they can forgive one another?\r\n\r\nAshley (21:32):\r\n\r\nOne of my favorite quotes on forgiveness is from St. Augustine; I'm sure you've heard this quote. It says, \"Holding a grudge is like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies.\" And so I look at unforgiveness the same way, just holding on to these things; because, in some way, I think we're convinced\u2014and this is a lie from the enemy\u2014but we're convinced that, if we let it go, then we're letting them off the hook. But we have to remember that God is a just God and we have natural consequences in place. We have to give it to the Lord, and say, \"God, You deal with my spouse and whatever it is that they did. I am hurt, but I'm going to let this go in the sense of knowing that You're dealing with them personally. It's not my job to have to hold this over their head.\" In fact, it\u2019s not a burden I\u2019m even meant to bear. Because we can't walk freely, and we can't even love freely, in the way that our spouse really needs us to in order for them to get the healing they need and to make amends. \r\n\r\nI think too, as a culture, we misunderstand that forgiveness and trust are two different things. I think a lot of times we don't fully forgive because we can't trust yet, but forgiveness and trust are two different things. Forgiveness is only given because God first forgave us, but trust has to be earned. We don't just willy-nilly give trust. It has to be earned over time with consistency, where our words and actions are consistent over time. Dave did that with the porn issue that we've talked about on here before; but even in smaller things, like being willing to say, \"Yeah, that didn't go right and that hurt me\u2014what you said hurt me\u2014but I'm going to give this to God, and I want us to do better.\" And when we show each other that we believe we can do better, you can rebuild that trust, slowly, over time.\r\n\r\n(23:08) I think it's just important that we try to seek forgiveness, and we try to apologize quickly; and then, accept that forgiveness. It's important that we don't allow things like that to come between us. I do think couples live for decades like this\u2014almost kind of holding it over each other's head and keeping tabs\u2014and it's just not healthy. It creates that undercurrent of resentment you talked about, Ann.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:30):\r\n\r\nYeah. I think that there's\u2014you can just tell that there's resentment toward each other\u2014and they don't like each other. You can see it, as they get older; they just don't really care to be around each other or like each other. We all drift toward isolation, but we can all move back; and it's never too late to do that.\r\n\r\nAshley (23:49):\r\n\r\nRight.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:49):\r\n\r\nThis has been rich! We could just do this together every time. \r\n\r\nAshley: I love it.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (23:55):\r\n\r\nYeah; we love you guys.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:56):\r\n\r\nWe love you guys, too. \r\n\r\nAshley: Thanks. \r\n\r\nAnn: I think this has been really helpful. Thanks, you guys.\r\n\r\nDave (24:01):\r\n\r\nLet me just say this to the listener: \u201cEvery single day, families around the world are facing real struggles. FamilyLife is here with gospel-centered help and hope. And when you become a FamilyLife Partner, your monthly support fuels this work.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (24:15):\r\n\r\nAnd with your monthly gift, you'll become a part of a community that receives insider updates, which is pretty amazing.\r\n\r\nDave (24:23):\r\n\r\nYes, it is.\r\n\r\nAnn (24:23):\r\n\r\nAnd who doesn't want to be a part of an insider community? You also get invitations to special events and more; because together, we're helping families really grow stronger in Christ. So join us.\r\n\r\nDave (24:37):\r\n\r\nYeah, just go to FamilyLifeToday.com; and tap the \u201cDonate\u201d button at the top of the page.\r\n\r\nAnn (24:45):\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nFifty years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?\r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2026 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife.com\n","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/317767","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=317767"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/295627"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=317767"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=317767"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=317767"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=317767"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=317767"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=317767"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}