{"id":317288,"date":"2025-10-23T05:18:23","date_gmt":"2025-10-23T09:18:23","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/how-to-raise-boys-who-respect-girls-dave-and-ashley-willis\/"},"modified":"2025-10-23T05:18:24","modified_gmt":"2025-10-23T09:18:24","slug":"how-to-raise-boys-who-respect-girls-dave-and-ashley-willis","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-to-raise-boys-who-respect-girls-dave-and-ashley-willis\/","title":{"rendered":"How to Raise Boys Who Respect Girls &#8211; Dave and Ashley Willis"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Dave and Ashley Willis are ready to talk about raising boys who know how to give respect. From Dave\u2019s raw, real talk about battling porn shame (yes, really) to Ashley\u2019s no-nonsense approach to rebuilding trust, this episode is a masterclass in keeping it honest without the guilt trip. They dish on turning everyday moments\u2014like mall strolls and swimsuit magazines\u2014into teachable, not preachy, moments about sex, boundaries, and respect. Plus, they unpack how dads can lay out the ultimate blueprint for sons. Think parenting talks can\u2019t be real, raw, and refreshingly hopeful? Think again. Tune in and gather the tools (and the courage) to raise respectful, confident boys who won\u2019t settle for less.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>On FamilyLife Today, Dave and Ann Wilson are keeping it real with Dave and Ashley Willis&#8211;on raising boys who truly respect women. From Dave Willis&#8217; battle with porn shame to Ashley\u2019s practical trust-building, they share honest, guilt-free advice on how everyday moments\u2014like mall trips and swimsuit magazines\u2014become teachable lessons on sex and boundaries, and how dads set the ultimate example. Buckle up for a parenting talk that&#8217;s raw, hopeful, and real.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":312569,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/ce9e5662-0832-4300-a486-b37500eda73d\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:53:14","filesize":"48.77M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2837,2835,2870],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[9755],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-317288","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-fathers","category-raising-boys","category-tweens","cwp_profile-dave-and-ashley-willis","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2025\/02\/image_bbee74.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/317288\/how-to-raise-boys-who-respect-girls-dave-and-ashley-willis","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/317288\/how-to-raise-boys-who-respect-girls-dave-and-ashley-willis","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"5SkPspqY2z\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-to-raise-boys-who-respect-girls-dave-and-ashley-willis\/\">How to Raise Boys Who Respect Girls &#8211; Dave and Ashley Willis<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-to-raise-boys-who-respect-girls-dave-and-ashley-willis\/embed\/#?secret=5SkPspqY2z\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;How to Raise Boys Who Respect Girls &#8211; Dave and Ashley Willis&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"5SkPspqY2z\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["ce9e5662-0832-4300-a486-b37500eda73d"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/ce9e5662-0832-4300-a486-b37500eda73d\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:53:14"],"filesize":["48.77M"],"_thumbnail_id":["312569"],"show_notes":["\n<ul>\n<li>Get FamilyLife's resource, \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/sexual-wholeness\/home\/\">How to Talk to Your Kids about Sex<\/a>\u201d with videos for parents and kids<\/li>\n<li>Get Dave and Ashley's book, \"<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/raising-boys-who-respect-girls\/\">Respecting Boys, Raising Boys Who Respect Girls<\/a>\" in our shop<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-10-23.pdf"],"transcript_content":["\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nHow to Raise Boys Who Respect Girls\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nGuests:Dave and Ashley Willis\r\n\r\nRelease Date:October 23, 2025\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis (00:00):\r\n\r\nWe just tried to make it not weird to talk about real things from an early age.\r\n\r\nAshley (00:04):\r\n\r\nYou want to talk about the bus?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (00:05):\r\n\r\nOne of our son's first day of eighth grade\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (00:07):\r\n\r\nOh yeah.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (00:07):\r\n\r\n\u2014came home and he was like, \u201cDo girls really like it when guys text pictures of their private parts to them? And we're like\u2014\r\n\r\nAshley (00:14):\r\n\r\n\u201cWhat?\u201d \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nThis is eighth grade. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nEighth grade.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (00:17):\r\n\r\nBut not freaking out in front of your kids is huge.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (00:23):\r\n\r\nSo we have Dave and Ashley Wilson in the studio today.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:27):\r\n\r\nI want to have banners.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nYou didn\u2019t hear what I said. Did you guys catch what I said?\r\n\r\nAshley (00:31):\r\n\r\nI did.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (00:31):\r\n\r\nI did.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (00:31):\r\n\r\nThere\u2019re so many people that call us Willis. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:33):\r\n\r\nWait, what did you say?\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nDave and Ashley Wilson. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nI said Wilson. You ever get called Wilson? \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (00:38):\r\n\r\nI would change my name and be legally adopted by you two.\r\n\r\nAshley (00:42):\r\n\r\nOh my goodness.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (00:42):\r\n\r\nAnd the sad thing is we're old enough to probably do that. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nNo, not quite. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nI was going to say not quite. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nWe have David and Ashley Willis. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nYou be my adopted big brother.\r\n\r\nAshley (00:52):\r\n\r\nThere you go. There you go.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (00:53):\r\n\r\nNo hair. I'd take your hair and your name. But anyway, I don't know if that's the way we want to start, but we're starting that way. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nWelcome to the broadcast. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nWe love you guys so much that it's just a joy to have you here. We watch you. We watch your videos. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nWe follow you. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson: \r\n\r\nAnd follow your life. And it's fun when you get to come to Orlando. We get to sit here. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (01:13):\r\n\r\nWe love hanging out with you guys.\r\n\r\nAshley (01:13):\r\n\r\nOh, we do. It's a real treat. It really is. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nAnd it's fun because we're all passionate about Jesus, but marriage is something that man, it beats in our blood and we want people to have better marriages, better families. So we have a lot in common that way. What are we doing today?\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (01:28):\r\n\r\nWe're going to talk about different things. First of all, Dave, you wrote a book and of course you remember this. This was during COVID, right?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (01:35):\r\n\r\nYeah. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nPretty close. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nYeah. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nIt came out during COVID.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nIt came out during COVID; wrote it, yeah, probably like the year leading up to COVID.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (01:42):\r\n\r\nHere it is. If you're watching on YouTube.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (01:43):\r\n\r\nStill an important message.\r\n\r\nAnn Wilson (01:46):\r\n\r\nYeah, it is. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nSo my first question is this; Ashley, you tell us, how does Dave respect you?\r\n\r\nAshley (01:53):\r\n\r\nOh my goodness. I mean so many ways. I think he always tries to give me his best attention and listens well to me. I feel like he shows our boys how to respect me by how he treats me every day and just showing me respect in his time, in his words, in his eyes. I think that he celebrates me well and it trickles down to our boys. And so I feel like our boys wouldn't have as much respect for me as they do if you didn't teach them that just through your example because you do such a great job of that.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (02:27):\r\n\r\nWell, she's very easy to respect first off, so I have it easy in that department because I am married to the best person. But it's important. I don't know for you dads who are listening, our kids are watching you, our example as fathers. I had somebody tell me when I was a young father, \u201cYou're teaching your sons how to respect women and you're teaching your daughters what they should expect from men someday by your example, by the way you're treating your spouse.\u201d And so that really stuck with me and I thought, \u201cMan,\u201d and we never had daughters, but with my sons, I want to model that. I want them to catch that. If they don't catch much else from me, I want them to at least catch that. But they have such an amazing mom. She is very easy to respect.\r\n\r\nAnn (03:18):\r\n\r\nDave, did that always come naturally?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (03:21):\r\n\r\nI think that it came naturally in that I had a great mom myself.\r\n\r\nAshley (03:26):\r\n\r\nHer name is Karen and she's amazing.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (03:27):\r\n\r\nYeah, I still do. I say it not past tense. I still have a great mom. Mom, if you're listening, you\u2019re the best. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nAnd a great dad.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nAnd a great dad. They're the best. I will say something that kind of temporarily sabotaged my thinking is when I was a teenager into young adulthood, I got into pornography, which is part of our testimony, my testimony, that we've talked a lot about. And that whole mindset shift of just having those toxic, objectifying images in my brain really sabotaged me for a time in how I saw myself and how I saw women and how I saw sex.\r\n\r\nAnn (04:02):\r\n\r\nWhat did that look like? How did it affect how you saw yourself?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (04:07):\r\n\r\nNo sin ever stays in the little compartment you build for it, right? So if you think, \u201cWell, this is just an escape or this is just entertainment\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (04:13):\r\n\r\nIt's not hurting anybody.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (04:14):\r\n\r\n\u201c\u2014it's not hurting anybody,\u201d all the lies that we believe\u2014that I believed at least, and I think many others have believed around porn, but it's insidious. It's like a cancerous tumor that metastasizes. It breaks open and it starts affecting all these other things. And so in terms of how I saw myself, I started having less respect for myself because I was wrapped up in this thing that I knew to be wrong. I wasn't taking steps to get help from it.\r\n\r\nAnn Wilson (04:40):\r\n\r\nWas it a secret?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (04:42):\r\n\r\nIt was a secret for a long time.\r\n\r\nAshley (04:43):\r\n\r\nFor a long time. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nAnd you were married?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (04:45):\r\n\r\nWell, I started when I was unmarried, but I fell back into it in our newlywed years. And then I dealt with the shame of that. I knew Jesus said to look with lust is to commit adultery in your heart. And I'm like, \u201cOh my goodness, I'm being unfaithful.\u201d And I hated myself for it. There was a lot of self-loathing. But there's a verse in the Proverbs that says, \u201cLike a dog that returns to its vomit, so a fool will repeat his foolishness.\u201d I was that dog. I would return to the gross thing, and knowing it's gross, but it's like I just couldn't break out of that cycle.\r\n\r\nAnn (05:16):\r\n\r\nSo that probably created shame.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (05:17):\r\n\r\nIt did. It created shame. And as much as I would say I respected Ashley even through that, I don't know that at that point in my life I was fully respecting anybody because just my whole mindset had been devalued. And so as a result, I was devaluing myself, devaluing others, and it was just a negative place to be. And so I think part of getting to a place of respect and just living the way God wants us to live is renewing our minds from just the junk that's there. And porn isn't the only form of junk. I think we can take on junk that impacts our relationships from our own, the homes we grew up in and maybe toxic behaviors we saw there, or words that were spoken to us when we were kids that have shaped our thinking about ourselves in unhealthy ways, or past relationships we've had, or just flawed messages we see from pop culture. I mean, there's a billion different ways to get the wrong message, but when we go back to God's Word and allow His Word to really renew our mind and to bring hope and healing and renewal and grace, then we can start seeing ourselves the way He sees us, and we can start seeing other people through His eyes. And the more we do that, the more we're going to respect each other because God has so much respect for people.\r\n\r\n(06:32):\r\n\r\nHe created us in His image for His glory. And so when you're objectifying another person or disrespecting another person, you're really disrespecting God who created them in His image. And so understanding that, I think just that principle can help all of us respect ourselves, respect the opposite sex and see humanity the way God wants us to.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (06:57):\r\n\r\nI mean, talk us through the struggle of porn in your marriage. I know there's couples listening right now, some of them just went, \u201cOh, I have a secret. They're talking about it. I don't even know if I'm going to tell her or tell him.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (07:11):\r\n\r\nAnd maybe the wife is suspecting something.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (07:13):\r\n\r\nYeah. So how did you guys navigate? I mean, number one, you're talking about it. We're from a generation where you couldn't even mention that. And now we have marriage authors, leaders saying, \u201cThis was a struggle\u201d that a lot of people just said\u2014I remember first time I mentioned it at my church, in the nineties. I didn't tell my co-founder I was going to share this with the church, that I had a struggle. And I remember as I said that I thought\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (07:38):\r\n\r\nAnd it was past tense.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (07:39):\r\n\r\nYeah, it was past tense. But I was trying to say this has been something I had to walk through. I remember having this thought, \u201cI might get fired today\u201d because a leader shouldn't have this struggle. And I'm not only saying I have it or had it; I'm going to talk about it publicly. And as I walked off the stage, Steve looked at me and said, \u201cYou just changed our church.\u201d And I'm like, \u201cUh oh, am I fired?\u201d And he is like, \u201cNo. This is now going to be a church where people can be honest and real.\u201d So you've gone the same route. You said, \u201cWe're going to talk about this.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis (08:07):\r\n\r\nWell, we have to be honest and real, and God blesses that. I mean, He blessed your church. Your church saw explosive growth after that. \r\n\r\nDave Wilson (08:12):\r\n\r\nIt became a place where people felt like they could be safe. But it was a hard thing in our marriage.\r\n\r\nAnn (08:18):\r\n\r\nHorrible.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (08:18):\r\n\r\nBecause I wanted to keep it my private struggle. \u201cI'm going to win this thing and I'm going to battle it, and she's not going to need to know because I'm going to win\u201d and then I'd fall. And so it couldn't be a secret anymore. So how did it go for you guys?\r\n\r\nAshley (08:31):\r\n\r\nOh man. Well, Dave always likes to say that he wished that he had just come out with it. He dealt with this for so long in the early years of our marriage. And I knew, I think as spouses, we often know something's off, but we don't always know what it is. And I remember for a while thinking something's off here. Because one of the things that attracted me to Dave the most, the first time I met him was he had what I refer to as honest eyes. And I just said, when I look at you, I feel like you're totally looking back at me and you're not hiding anything. And I just found that, I mean, I clearly was attracted to you physically, but my heart was attracted to you\u2014 \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nYou felt safe.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\n\u2014with the honesty. Right, I felt security and safety.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (09:09):\r\n\r\nI mean, when she said that, Dave, did you feel like you're not honest because I have this struggle?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (09:15):\r\n\r\nWell, I think at the time we were together, first getting together, I wasn't looking at porn. It had been a past struggle, but I would have these kinds of little stints of sobriety with it. And I thought, \u201cOkay, well I'm free from that. That's part of my past and I don't need to tell her,\u201d which was my first mistake, not telling her it had even been part of my past struggle. But in those early years of our dating, if I'm remembering, I think I was free from it. So there was an honesty. I mean, I was being honest, but then when I fell back into it, which even took me by surprise, I was hiding in shame. And Ashley, who's very perceptive, knew something was off and we were living in that tension.\r\n\r\nAshley (09:59):\r\n\r\nAnd I would even say sometimes, \u201cAre you okay?\u201d And he's like, \u201cYeah, I'm fine. Work is crazy.\u201d You know what I'm saying?\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (10:06):\r\n\r\nThat is exactly our conversation.\r\n\r\nAnn (10:07):\r\n\r\nYou feel it, something's off. I remember saying the same thing. \u201cIs something up? I just feel like a separation from us.\u201d\r\n\r\nAshley (10:14):\r\n\r\nYes, a distance. And he would be so concerned, and I would see it. Now that I've been married to him almost 25 years, I know, I think I could read him like a book, but we were still getting to know each other in all of our cues that we give. And I knew there was something; porn was nowhere on my radar. And Dave always says, till this day, he's like, \u201cOne of my biggest regrets is not telling you that I had struggled with this before we got married, that this was part of my past.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (10:44):\r\n\r\nBecause then it would've been on your radar.\r\n\r\nAshley (10:46):\r\n\r\nYes, and I could have been like, \u201cHave you looked at porn? Just be honest with me.\u201d And then we could have dealt with it. But he had built up so much shame. He had allowed shame to really creep in because he not only had not told me about the past struggle; he now was back in that struggle. And every time he said he just did not have the courage to tell me, and he wished that he had.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (11:05):\r\n\r\nI didn't want to disappoint you. I didn't want to be seen as a failure or weak or any of these things. So whatever lies I was believing, it kept it in the dark until she just found it. \r\n\r\nAshley (11:16):\r\n\r\nI found it, and I wasn't looking for it.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (11:17):\r\n\r\nThis was before smartphones even. This was old school on an old clunky desktop computer. She found these terrible places where I'd been looking. And so then all at once, it's brought out into the open in a really drastic way. And she called and said, \u201cIs there something you need to tell me?\u201d And I immediately, I knew, and I mean I was heartbroken and relieved at the same time, and I said, \u201cYou found it, and I'm so sorry.\u201d And that put us on the path to healing. But even the path to healing was messy. I mean, it was so deeply ingrained in my mind. I know there was at least one relapse that I had, which just brought the same shame cycle all over again. And it was messy. Rebuilding trust takes time. I've heard it said Trust is built in drops and lost in buckets.\u201d And I dumped out a bucket load of trust all at once.\r\n\r\n(12:10):\r\n\r\nShe was so full of grace though, even in her woundedness, to walk with me and allow me to rebuild that trust over time. And for us to put safeguards in place to just make sure through filtering software and accountability and all the things that came with it, that we would have a household of honesty and transparency. And as our boys started coming along, I think having worked through that early in our marriage, it kind of gave us a foundation for knowing we want to raise them in a way where we're honest about these things. They're in a world where they're going to be bombarded with all the wrong kinds of images, and we don't want any of that to take root in them or shame to take root in them when they do stumble, but we're going to start having conversations early.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (12:56):\r\n\r\nYeah. How'd that look like with your boys? I mean, did you share your struggle as a dad with your sons when they got to a certain age?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (13:03):\r\n\r\nYeah, I mean in age specific ways we've tried to be completely honest and just by nature of what we do, we talk so openly about this stuff. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nYou don't have a choice. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nI don't have a choice, right, because it\u2019s like\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (13:15):\r\n\r\nI mean, your ministry used to be called Naked Marriage.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (13:16):\r\n\r\nRight. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nRight. Yeah, exactly.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (13:17):\r\n\r\nAnd everybody thought \u201cWhat does that mean?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis (13:18):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s like, \u201cYou were talking about this on stage an hour ago. You can't pretend like this didn't happen.\u201d So that keeps me honest. What we do keeps me honest.\r\n\r\nAnn (13:27):\r\n\r\nWhat is age-appropriate you guys, to have those conversations of your own past? What do you think?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (13:33):\r\n\r\nGosh, I think it depends in some ways on the child. I don't know if it's like you hit this age, tell them everything on their 12th birthday. I don't think it's like that. I think you have to have discretion about the level of detail.\r\n\r\n(13:48):\r\n\r\nI think you can give them principles of, \u201cI made mistakes in this area.\u201d And then as they get older and maybe their temptations get more specific, then you can get more specific in kind of what your past struggles were, what happened as a result of the right choices and the wrong choices you made. And we tried to be honest about both, about here's a time when I overcame temptation and it was a victory story, but they learn even more from the times you say, \u201cMe, I blew it in this area and this is what that looked like, and this is what I felt, and this is the shame I was carrying.\u201d\r\n\r\n(14:26):\r\n\r\nBut we just tried to make it not weird to talk about real things from an early age. We would talk about their anatomy and like, \u201cOh, God made you a boy. That's great.\u201d We would use specific words for their anatomy and say, \u201cThat's great. You're going to be a man someday and be able to be a dad. And your anatomy's never dirty. There's never any of that. It's private and people aren't allowed to touch you there.\u201d Sure. And \u201cYou tell us if there's anybody that ever tries to violate that.\u201d But not creating atmospheres where they would feel like they had to live in secrecy or shame as they started having these feelings about sex and puberty and all that. So I think that's how it started.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (15:09):\r\n\r\nBy the way, I just put it in a little call to action right now. You guys have just done for FamilyLife a How to Talk to Your Kids About Sex videos series. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nIt's a new curriculum.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (15:20):\r\n\r\nI'm so excited about this resource.\r\n\r\nAshley (15:23):\r\n\r\nSo excited.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (15:23):\r\n\r\nI think the team at FamilyLife did a stellar job. We got to partner with an amazing team to put together this resource. We're the ones teaching on it, but it was a team effort putting together this curriculum. And I think it's some of the most helpful, practical resources I've seen anywhere. Again, the team puts so much into it to help parents, guide parents, in age-specific ways to have these conversations with boys and girls. It's not just for sons.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nYes, for both.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (15:49):\r\n\r\nOh, it is. Yeah. That's good. And by the way, just go to FamilyLife.com\/SexTalk and you get Dave and Ashley talking about probably some of the stuff you just said.\r\n\r\nAshley (15:56):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (15:56):\r\n\r\nDo you even get into porn?\r\n\r\nAshley (15:58):\r\n\r\nAbsolutely.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (15:58):\r\n\r\nYeah. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (15:59):\r\n\r\nWe talk about all of it.\r\n\r\nAnn (16:01):\r\n\r\nAnd it's called How to Talk to Your Kids About Sex.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (16:10):\r\n\r\nSo how and when do you talk to your kids about sex? What we've learned with raising four is that you start early. It's not one talk. It's a series of conversations in age-appropriate ways that start early by celebrating their gender, by being specific about their anatomy, talking about appropriate, inappropriate touch as they get into early pre-adolescence. It's talking about puberty and the mechanics of sex.\r\n\r\nAshley (16:32):\r\n\r\nExactly. And boundaries as they enter into dating. And then you just keep talking about it. And as you lay this foundation of being an open place to talk about these things, you're building trust and they're going to come back to you with questions. And we try to answer those questions as best we can by being honest even about our own experiences. And I'm telling you that makes them lean in and that makes them want to come to you again and again,\r\n\r\nDave Willis (16:54):\r\n\r\nFamilyLife\u2019s How to Talk to Your Kids About Sex.\r\n\r\nAshley (17:01):\r\n\r\nI think it gets intimidating for us as parents, especially with your question, like how did you or did you even approach the fact that porn is part of his past, with our kids? And I think it's really important to know that there's no perfect parents out there with the perfect past. And so we have to come at this knowing that we're not perfect. Our kids already know that. My goodness, probably more than anybody. But I think even as we talk about sex to be real with them, to be authentic with them at an age-appropriate level, it gives them that safe place to come back with questions. Because it's not just one sex talk. It's a multitude of talks, right, over the course of time. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnd like Dave said, it gets more detailed as they get a bit older and have those questions. But I feel like we knew back then when we had little kids that we would need to talk to them about this part of our marriage. And when the time came, we really talked about it as a couple, what do we want to share and what can we teach them from this? And we've been able to do that with each of our kids and put those safeguards in place as well that we still have till this day; to just not have porn at all, be part of our lives.\r\n\r\n(18:03):\r\n\r\nAnd I want to say this specifically as it comes to, with Dave having this past porn struggle, how did he try to of course correct and then respect me as a woman? One of the greatest things he did was really pay attention to where his eyes would go. And I think this is something like even in the counseling space, this is something I often hear from wives, not just with husbands with a porn struggle, but just husbands who have trouble with where their eyes go. It is so crushing to a wife when they feel like they have to monitor their husband's eyes, and they can't trust that he's not going to look twice. Because here's the deal\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Willis (18:37):\r\n\r\nLinger on an Instagram picture a little too long that's maybe a little provocative or there's, sorry to interrupt, but there's just so many different ways that a guy can\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (18:48):\r\n\r\nAnd it's crushing to a woman\u2014\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s so crushing.\r\n\r\nAnn (18:49):\r\n\r\n\u2014because we already feel insecure.\r\n\r\nAshley (18:51):\r\n\r\nExactly. And the deal is we can't control if an attractive person pops up on our screen, walks by our house, we see them out at a restaurant or whatever. There\u2019re beautiful people everywhere. We can notice them, but we get to choose whether or not we keep staring or we keep looking or we start lusting over them. And so I just remember back in those days especially, I never really felt like I had to pay attention to that with Dave. But after I discovered that he had a porn issue, that was definitely on my mind. Well, what else is he looking at? It makes you doubt everything. And I was like, \u201cOh my gosh, is he thinking this lady over here is hot? Is he lusting about her?\u201d I mean, you're thinking those things. And I just remember he would go out of his way just to avoid situations where it would be super tempting, like gyms. We at one point changed our gym because we just didn't want it to be a temptation. Instead of going to the amazing popular gym in town, we went to the YMCA.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (19:44):\r\n\r\nWhich I loved because the average age, there was about 94. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nIt really was.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nIn baggy long t-shirts. \r\n\r\nAshley (19:53):\r\n\r\nThis is true.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nYou feel better about yourself.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (19:54):\r\n\r\nI felt so much better about myself.\r\n\r\nAshley (19:55):\r\n\r\nA confidence boost.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (19:56):\r\n\r\nI did. I made all kinds of friends. I'd walk around drinking coffee for the first hour. I did. And then when I finally started working out, I'd be like, \u201cI am strong. Look at this.\u201d I got 10-pound dumbbells, but I felt like Arnold Schwarzenegger.\r\n\r\nAnn (20:10):\r\n\r\nYou guys there some couples hearing that're like, \u201cThis is ridiculous.\u201d \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nOh, I'm sure they think that. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nAnd yet, Ashley, what did that mean to you?\r\n\r\nAshley (20:17):\r\n\r\nIt meant the world. It meant that I'm a higher priority. I mean, honestly, I wasn't going to that gym thinking, \u201cOh, he's looking.\u201d But Dave was like, \u201cSweetie,\u201d he goes, \u201cI just think we need to go to the Y where it's not even a thing.\u201d Because there would just be a lot of scantily dressed women there. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (20:34):\r\n\r\nPeople, men and women\u2014\r\n\r\nAshley (20:35):\r\n\r\nMen too!\r\n\r\nDave Willis (20:35):\r\n\r\n\u2014that were wearing things to be noticed.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (20:38):\r\n\r\nThey want you to look.\r\n\r\nAnn (20:38):\r\n\r\nYes, that\u2019s why they're dressed that way.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (20:41):\r\n\r\nYes. Well, think about what you're also, I mean, your kids are probably little then, but if they're old enough to watch what's happening, you are showing your sons, this is how you respect your wife. You change where you work out. \r\n\r\nAnn (20:53):\r\n\r\nHave you had that conversation and told them that?\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nOh, I think so.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (20:56):\r\n\r\nYeah. I\u2019ve told my older boys, and they got into gyms, and I would say, \u201cYeah, I used to go there, and this is why I stopped.\u201d And now we just have some weights at home. And that's like\u2014so now it's great. You just work out at home. But yeah, I've talked to them about that. I said, \u201cBecause everywhere I looked, it felt like an unsafe place to look in that place.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (21:20):\r\n\r\nI remember\u2014we shared this before\u2014but when I was walking through a mall in Atlanta, Georgia, actually, Dalton, Georgia\u2014you know where that is? That's where her parents lived.\r\n\r\nAshley (21:30):\r\n\r\nNice.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (21:30):\r\n\r\nAnd so it's me with the three boys, and I'm guessing my oldest was maybe 11, so 11, 9, 6. And they're in front of me, and I walk in and I see in the middle of this mall, not in a store, but there's this little magazine rack and it was low to the ground, and there's like Sports Illustrated swimsuit\u2014it's some kind of swimsuit issue. And I'm literally looking at my boys to see if they notice it, and I notice my older son saw it. The other two, too young; didn't even notice it. So I grabbed this\u2014and CJ's given permission to say this\u2014but I grabbed him. I think he's 11, and he hit maturity early, so he looks like he's like 13, 14.\r\n\r\n(22:12):\r\n\r\nI go, \u201cHey, CJ, did you see that magazine rack up there?\u201d He goes, \u201cNo, no, I didn't see it.\u201d I go, \u201cI did.\u201d He goes, \u201cOh, well, yeah, I saw it.\u201d I go, and I'll never forget it. And I'm down at his level and the other two boys are running around and I go, \u201cHey, did you want to look at that girl in her bathing suit?\u201d He goes, \u201cOh, no, I didn't want to look.\u201d I go, \u201cWell, I wanted to look.\u201d He goes, \u201cWell, yeah, I wanted to look too.\u201d And I go, \u201cSo did you look?\u201d He goes, \u201cNo, I didn't look.\u201d I go, \u201cYeah, I saw you; you looked.\u201d And so all I did was go, \u201cHey, that's normal. She's a very beautiful woman. She's on this cover. That's normal. You're going to want to look. But you know what I do, CJ? I don't have eyes for anybody but your mom. And so when I see that kind of thing, I turn.\u201d I go, \u201cLet's make a path.\u201d And I'll never forget, it was one of those moments like, \u201cWe are in this together.\u201d Teaching him about sex was not really\u2014it was an intentional moment. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nIt's a great moment. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nThe other boys weren't there yet. That day will come. But man, that was a moment to respect women.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s so good.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (23:09):\r\n\r\nHe'll never forget. That's what the whole point of this book is. And the whole point of our, well, our video course is looking for those moments to just lead by example and make it a teachable moment without putting shame on them, to say, \u201cListen, it's normal. It's natural that you're going to notice. You're going to have these feelings. You're going to be drawn. There's not shame in that, but it's what we do with those feelings. Realizing God has a time and a place within marriage someday for all of that to be expressed in a beautiful and healthy way. But until then, any expression to that is going to be a counterfeit on some level that's going to hurt you and others, but don't feel bad that you have these feelings. Just it means you're becoming an adult.\u201d And so you can celebrate their growth at the same time while teaching.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:55):\r\n\r\nWith some safeguards.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (23:55):\r\n\r\nWith safeguards, which you did. And that's a great example.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:57):\r\n\r\nWhen we talk about, and you talk about in this book, the locker room mentality, what is that? Is this what we're talking about?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (24:09):\r\n\r\nYeah, well, the locker room mentality\u2014 \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nBe careful. I've been in a lot of locker rooms. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nI know. Hey, well, yeah, I wasn't as athletic as this Dave, so I didn't have as many locker rooms. I have been in locker rooms. I think though what I'm referring to is just when guys get in guy-only spaces\u2014and it doesn't have to be an actual locker room\u2014but the mentality there when guys can get in guy-only spaces and the jokes all of a sudden can become degrading to women, or the talk can become overly sexualized, the bravado or trying to project, and we don't outgrow it. I was at a gym not that long ago\u2014again, like an older person gym; that's where I hang\u2014and there were two guys in their\u2014they both had to be in their seventies, and they were talking together about porn as if\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (25:03):\r\n\r\nReally? \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s what they're into.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (25:04):\r\n\r\nYes, two seventies-year-old guys. And one was saying, \u201cYeah, I gave my laptop to my grandson, but I had to have my tech guy wipe it because I had all my good porn on there, and I didn't want him to see that.\u201d But they were talking about porn like you would just talk about cars or sports or whatever.\r\n\r\nAshley (25:25):\r\n\r\nLike \u201cHave you seen the latest movie?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis (25:26):\r\n\r\nIt was just such a natural\u2014and I just kind of sat there as a fly on the wall for a while and thought, \u201cYou know what, without intentionality, we never outgrow sin.\u201d\r\n\r\n(25:36):\r\n\r\nYou never outgrow just sexual sin or lust or that mindset that disrespects women, that objectifies, and so it's not just a thing of like, \u201cWell, we got to teach our kids because when they're teenagers, this'll be a temptation, but then they'll outgrow it and it won't be a thing.\u201d No, without Christ changing your heart and renewing your mind, and without being intentional of saying, \u201cI don't want to live that way,\u201d then we're all going to be the old guy at the gym someday that's still creepy, that's still\u2014and it was\u2014 \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nThat is creepy to me. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nIt is but it was so normal. That's what surprised Dave and I the most.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (26:15):\r\n\r\nIt wasn't like, \u201cOh, I'm struggling with this. It was just like\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (26:18):\r\n\r\nThis is normal.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (26:18):\r\n\r\nThis is normal. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nThis is what men do. It's scary.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nThis is what men do, and men talk about.\r\n\r\nAshley (26:22):\r\n\r\nAnd it's making so little of men, and it's holding them to such a low standard if that's normal.\r\n\r\nAnn (26:27):\r\n\r\nAnd it's keeping them captive and it's affecting their future relationships with every single woman that they'll have. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nAbsolutely. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nAnd the same is happening with women where porn has become so normalized and that, \u201cYeah, it's okay for women to look at it too.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis (26:42):\r\n\r\nIt's empowering even, they say.\r\n\r\nAnn (26:43):\r\n\r\nExactly. And that's affecting our futures. And we all know because we've been married a while, this really\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (26:50):\r\n\r\nWe've been married a little longer than you guys.\r\n\r\nAshley (26:51):\r\n\r\nI know. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nIt really affects your marriage relationship and your legacy.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (26:55):\r\n\r\nSure it does.\r\n\r\nAnn (26:56):\r\n\r\nThat's sad to me. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nIt was sad to me, yeah.\r\n\r\nAshley (27:01):\r\n\r\nIt is.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (27:02):\r\n\r\nYeah, I, believe it or not, right now, play on a softball team.\r\n\r\nAshley (27:06):\r\n\r\nAwesome.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (27:07):\r\n\r\nIt may be called senior softball. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nSeasoned, seasoned softball. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nSeasoned, there you go. I like that. You should see us run. It's ugly, but it's none of these guys are church guys. They call me \u201cThe rabbi.\u201d \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nOh, wow. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nWhich is hilarious because they don't even know they\u2019re right.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nThey don't even know that that\u2019s\u2014\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nThey're like, \u201cHey, rabbi;\u201d it's just funny. But it's a normal conversation for these guys to talk about the porn they looked at this weekend. I mean, it's just wow. And they don't even blink at that. I'm sitting right there and I'm in there, \u201cHey, guys,\u201d not that you can't talk about this. It was like, \u201cDo you understand what you're doing to women?\u201d And they just laugh. \u201cWhat? Women, that's what they want.\u201d Oh my goodness. And they're all married. I love these guys. I'm there. I want to be the light of Jesus in this world. But that's how normal it is. And you wrote this in 19, and it's even gotten worse.\r\n\r\nAshley (28:02):\r\n\r\nOh yeah.\r\n\r\nAnn (28:02):\r\n\r\nAshley, what have those conversations been like with your boys about this topic? Because with a mom, it's like we wonder, \u201cDo I have those conversations with our sons? Dave's having those, do I chime in too of what it makes me feel as a woman?\u201d What's that been like?\r\n\r\nAshley (28:19):\r\n\r\nAt first, I had those questions, \u201cShould I just let Dave do the talking in this area?\u201d He had the background with porn, and it'd be like man to man. And I don't know, as we've kind of navigated it through the years, I've gotten more comfortable. And Dave actually was like, \u201cSweetie, I think they need to hear from you as a woman and how that made you feel, and how if a man's staring you down and looking at you sexually, how does that make you feel? The dude in the grocery store or whatever or things like that and just talking to the boys about it.\u201d \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nSo I have. I've been like, \u201cListen, you need to watch where your eyes go.\u201d I talk a lot about that. I know as of right now, we have an 18-year-old and 20-year-old, and I know those hormones are raging, and I'm like, \u201cYou got to get a grip on this, and it's up to you, and God will give you the ability to do that, but you have to be mindful of where your eyes are going and you can't just follow the crowd and get wrapped up in all of this.\u201d\r\n\r\n(29:14):\r\n\r\nAnd so I've been able to talk to them from that perspective. And I do. We have one son who has a girlfriend right now. And a lot of times I'll be like, \u201cHow are you showing respect to your girlfriend?\u201d And just talking through what that looks like. And really, it's been really neat to have that open conversation. And I would say a lot of times they'll ask me questions now because we've had those conversations. So they'll come to me and say like, \u201cMom, what do you think about this?\u201d And just we talk through it pretty openly. I mean, I think that, like Dave said, with the work we do, we might be more open than the next person just because we talk about this all the time. But I do think that as parents, we do have a responsibility to open up the conversation. It might even start off very awkward.\r\n\r\n(29:56):\r\n\r\nI mean, I know ours really did, but we're really cultivating a safe place. We're reminding our kids, \u201cHey, the world's going to tell you a lot of things, but we need you to come to us and you can come to us and we're going to give you the best answer we can. And it's going to be based on biblical truth. And we're going to tell you too, where we feel like we've done this right and where we've really gone wrong and what we've learned.\u201d And thankfully they do bring us some questions. There's been times where I have to, Dave has to grab my arms to wipe the shock off my face. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (30:25):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\n\u201cWhat?!\u201d \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nJust be shocked later, not right now. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nAnd he's like, \u201cThis is what we want.\u201d\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nBe curious. Yeah.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (30:32):\r\n\r\nWe meet a ton of couples who say FamilyLife helped them when they need it the most. And that's what being a FamilyLife Partner is all about, helping others find that same encouragement and tools that you found right here.\r\n\r\nAnn (30:44):\r\n\r\nAnd we'd love for you to join us. So click the donate button at FamilyLifeToday.com and become a Partner today.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (30:51):\r\n\r\nDo it. I don't know, that might've been a one.\r\n\r\nAnn (30:53):\r\n\r\nYou did a really good one. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nThat might've been a one taker.\r\n\r\nAshley (30:57):\r\n\r\nYou want to talk about the bus?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (30:58):\r\n\r\nYeah. I think\u2014\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nThis was a memorable one. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\n\u2014this is early in the book. One of our son's first day of eighth grade came home and he was like, \u201cHey, is it normal? Do girls really like it when guys text pictures of their private parts to him?\u201d And were like\u2014\r\n\r\nAshley (31:12):\r\n\r\nWhat?! \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nThis is eighth grade? \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nEighth grade.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (31:15):\r\n\r\nHe was like, \u201cYeah, these boys on the bus, they were taking pictures of their private parts and then trying to show people and laughing and texting and saying, \u2018Girls love getting pictures like this.\u2019\u201d And he was like; I could tell he was really confused and troubled by it.\r\n\r\nAnn (31:28):\r\n\r\nI love that he came to you. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (31:31):\r\n\r\nHe came to us, yeah. I'm so glad he did, and Ashley, I think her instinct was \u201cWho are these kids?\u201d\r\n\r\nAshley (31:35):\r\n\r\n\u201cWho are these kids?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis (31:37):\r\n\r\nWe're going to arrest them.\r\n\r\nAshley (31:37):\r\n\r\nI'm just shocked. You just don't expect it in eighth grade.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nI\u2019d be right with you.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (31:43):\r\n\r\nI just said, \u201cMan, thank you. Thank you for trusting us with this.\u201d And I said, \u201cFirst off, no, it's not good. In fact, it's illegal for underage people to be taking those pictures or receiving those pictures or anybody to receive pictures of an underage person. So first off, it's illegal.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (32:01):\r\n\r\nOh, that's good. I like that you said it's illegal because that puts fear into our children.\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nFor sure.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (32:04):\r\n\r\nIt's considered child pornography. And we talked about all that. I said, \u201cBut it's wrong.\u201d And we talked about why it's wrong and how it's disrespectful. It's violating all of those things, and we're able to unpack it. And he listened and he goes, \u201cYeah, that's what I was thinking. I thought it was pretty weird, but I was just making sure.\u201d And he just went on with his day like video games. But being able to, and then we're looking at each other like \u201cOh my gosh, what's happening?\u201d But not freaking out in front of your kids is huge.\r\n\r\nAnn (32:39):\r\n\r\nI like you putting your hand up. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nHe really was so good about it.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (32:44):\r\n\r\nThere's been a lot of these moments. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nActually, that is me.\r\n\r\nAshley (32:45):\r\n\r\nIt's that mama bear. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (32:46):\r\n\r\nYeah, she calms me down a lot. But with this kind of stuff, I'm usually the one like, \u201cWe'll freak out later. Now is not the time.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (32:53):\r\n\r\nYes. Our oldest son at one point was listening to this music. I am like\u2014you guys, I can get so hot\u2014\"What?!\u201d \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nIt's fun when she gets hot.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\n\u2014is this like music from Satan? You're not playing this music in my house.\u201d And Dave just kind of like\u2014then he pulls the CD out of the trash can. He's like, \u201cHey, so what are you\u2014tell me about this music.\u201d I just have to go in the other room and cool off a little bit.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (33:17):\r\n\r\nYeah, yeah.\r\n\r\nAshley (33:17):\r\n\r\nYes. I've been there many times. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (33:22):\r\n\r\nThat's right, yeah.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (33:22):\r\n\r\nBut obviously you've created a safe net where they feel like they can bring up that kind of stuff. A lot of homes would be like, \u201cNo way I could ever talk to mom and dad about this.\u201d So I mean, obviously it's in what you talked about with FamilyLife.com\/SexTalk. How do you have this talk with your kids? How did you develop an environment in your home where they felt safe to bring this kind of stuff up? Is this something you started talking about since they were little boys?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (33:49):\r\n\r\nWe did, and I think we realized early, this is something we cannot outsource.\r\n\r\n(33:56):\r\n\r\nBecause the world would love you to outsource these conversations and just send them to the internet or send them to somebody else or let the friends at school fill in the gaps and they're going to get so many wrong messages that way. I'm like, we signed up to be parents. This was one of those key responsibilities that we have to instill these core values about respect, about God's plan for sex. And it can be uncomfortable sometimes, man, these are some of the most important conversations we'll ever have. And if you're listening to this and you feel not equipped, you feel like, oh my goodness, because of my own past, or I don't want those things to come up or to answer hard questions. Your kids aren't expecting you to be perfect, but they need you to be present. They need you to be honest and to just guide them, guide them through this, with what you did right, with what you did wrong. There's so much at stake, and you've got this, you're the most qualified person on earth to have these conversations with your children.\r\n\r\nAshley (34:53):\r\n\r\nAnd in the resource How to Talk to Your Kids About Sex, we really talk through it. We have a parental video for parents only before they watch the video with their child. But then the most important part of all this is the conversation they will have after watching that video with their child.\r\n\r\nAnn (35:07):\r\n\r\nSo they're watching the video together.\r\n\r\nAshley (35:09):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\n(35:10):\r\n\r\nAnd that way the child can ask questions or not, or the parent can pose questions or say, \u201cHey, was something unclear? Do you want to ask me a question about this? Because I know sometimes this can be really nerve wracking. And I know when I was your age, this was an awkward conversation with my parents,\u201d or \u201cMy parents didn't know how to talk to me about this.\u201d And that was really my experience. I have wonderful parents, but they didn't know how to talk to me about this. And I really think it went back to their own past. They didn't know how to address that or how to share it with me, or if I would ask questions that they didn't know how to answer. And so I remember going into marriage, and we did get married young, so maybe my poor parents didn't have enough time to gather their thoughts, but it wasn't talked about really.\r\n\r\n(35:51):\r\n\r\nIt was just shut down. And I remember when we were, we had young children, we knew someday we'd have to have these talks with them. We wanted to do it differently and really get ahead of it because the truth is younger and younger kids are being exposed to mixed messages about sex. And I think a lot of parents, we want to live in denial and think, \u201cWell, not my baby.\u201d He or she's not going to be exposed at their school. It's a good school. And there's not going to be a kid with a cell phone showing them an image. And I just want to burst that bubble and say, tragically, it's everywhere. I mean, I've taught in a Christian school, and I've taught in a public school, and I can tell you kids are kids everywhere. And the only difference was in a Christian school I could actually talk to them and pray with them.\r\n\r\n(36:31):\r\n\r\nBut other than that, they're kids and kids are curious. And we want to get ahead of that curiosity and really talk to them about how sex is a powerful gift from God and how they have license over the bodies that God gave them. And so therefore, they have boundaries they need to put in place with people, and they need to respect other people's boundaries. And we just wanted to help parents with this resource to have these conversations and to not feel like they're their parents. And with that, God gave you that authority to be their teacher and to get equipped and be able to answer those hard questions.\r\n\r\nAnn (37:04):\r\n\r\nI love that you guys are doing the heavy lifting of it too, because they're watching it. You guys are saying a bunch of this great stuff and it's just, it's an on-ramp to a conversation.\r\n\r\nAshley (37:14):\r\n\r\nYes. It's an on ramp. Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn (37:15):\r\n\r\nAnd I think that's really needed for us. Like, oh, okay, they're going to talk about it and then I'm just going to, we're walk together through it. I think it's so needed. I love it. I love that you guys are doing this. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (37:27):\r\n\r\nThank you. We try to create what we wish we would've had.\r\n\r\nAnn (37:30):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (37:30):\r\n\r\nWe had some tools that helped. Some of those were from FamilyLife.\r\n\r\nAshley (37:35):\r\n\r\nWere from FamilyLife, for sure.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (37:36):\r\n\r\nAnd we're thankful for that. But it's like, what do we wish we would've had? And that's what we tried to create with the team here.\r\n\r\nAnn (37:44):\r\n\r\nAnd it's a different day.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (37:45):\r\n\r\nYeah, it's a different day. The challenges are different. The temptations are different. The questions are different. The core principles are always going to be the same about sex, but I'm really excited about this resource. I really do hope that it brings parents and kids closer together with each other, creates some bonding moments and also takes away some of the fear around these talks and equips the next generation with some tools that are going to help them walk the beautiful path God has for them.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (38:13):\r\n\r\nAnd I mean, obviously, it's one of the best ways you can respect each other. Your book is about boys respecting, men respecting their women.\r\n\r\n(38:23):\r\n\r\nOne of the most, I think, fascinating\u2014and you have a chapter on it\u2014studies I ever did way back was how Jesus was the model in that culture of elevating and respecting women. I remember when I was studying this and getting a grip on it as sort of a seminary student, there was a TV show\u2014you guys are too young to remember\u2014that was really popular called LA Law.\r\n\r\nAshley (38:46):\r\n\r\nOh, I know LA Law. Yes. I totally remember that.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (38:47):\r\n\r\nWe were into it. We were living in California at the time, so we thought we were LA people.\r\n\r\nAshley (38:52):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (38:52):\r\n\r\nBut there was an actress, I don't know what her name was; she was popular on the show, but there was a quote that came out around that time from her about Jesus. And again, I could look it up and tell you her name, but she said this, \u201cI'm not a Christian because of what Jesus did to women. I'm not going to follow a man that did what he did to women,\u201d and I wanted to call her to go, \u201cYou have no idea how he elevated women.\u201d \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nOh my gosh, more so than anybody in history.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nAnybody in that culture probably. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nSo explain that a little bit. Well, how did Jesus\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Willis (39:24):\r\n\r\nI'm so glad you brought that up, Dave. It's my favorite chapter in the book.\r\n\r\nAshley (39:28):\r\n\r\nMine too. I love it.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nIt is?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (39:29):\r\n\r\nIt is because Jesus is our role model for all things, but I don't think, we always think of Him as being the role model for how men should respect women. And He set the bar so high, the way He valued women, the way He made women the heroes in stories that He told.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (39:46):\r\n\r\nWhich was never\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Willis (39:48):\r\n\r\nThe way He honored them in His conversations, the way He sought them out and brought them into the ministry and allowed them to lead and serve and use their God-given gifts, and the way He took time to meet their needs, the way He allowed them to participate in meeting the needs of the ministry. There were women that were financial contributors as well, to helping the ministry go forward. And I mean, it was radically counter-cultural in that day, in that time, in that place, the way that Jesus elevated women that we might look at today and say, \u201cYeah, well, that's the way that it should be.\u201d But back then, nobody was doing this. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nNobody. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nI mean, He was revolutionary, of course, in so many ways but what we don't talk about enough is how revolutionary He was in elevating and respecting women. \r\n\r\nDave Wilson (40:38):\r\n\r\nSo as a boy, as a man, we have to follow Jesus, right? \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nAbsolutely. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nThat's the model.\r\n\r\nAnn (40:44):\r\n\r\nI mean, I think of John 4 of the woman at the well, the Samaritan woman, how many things that He did in that Jewish culture that would've never been done. One, that He would talk to a Samaritan woman as a rabbi. That He would touch something asking her for a drink, which means she would've touched it, which means He would've touched it, which you're not allowed to do that. I was on a flight to Israel with some Orthodox Jewish men, and they couldn't sit in the seat beside one of our women,\r\n\r\nAshley (41:15):\r\n\r\nReally?\r\n\r\nAnn (41:15):\r\n\r\nAnd so he had to get the flight attendant, they had to move. There were so many different things that they were obeying the custom of their faith. And I'm imagining Jesus having this conversation with this woman alone, even talking to her and initiating the conversation. It's like all the rules are broken, but He sees her. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (41:38):\r\n\r\nHe sees her, yeah.\r\n\r\nAnn (41:38):\r\n\r\nAnd in the midst of seeing her, respects her and gives her dignity. And talk about a woman that was walking with shame, and He elevates. It's phenomenal of how counter cultural He was and still is in so many ways. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nAnd still is.\r\n\r\nAshley (41:54):\r\n\r\nRight. I love that. It's one of my favorite stories.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nMe too.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (41:57):\r\n\r\nSo as we sort of bring this to a close is there like, if you think\u2014and I know it's now, it's 2025. We're six years removed from when this was published\u2014top three. If you can come up with three, maybe there's 10 ways for men to respect women, boys to respect girls. What are the top ones that come to your mind?\r\n\r\nAnn (42:19):\r\n\r\nWe should do two and two.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (42:21):\r\n\r\nTwo and two.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (42:22):\r\n\r\nTwo and two. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nAll right. Yeah.\r\n\r\nAnn (42:24):\r\n\r\nWe'll see if there's\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Willis (42:25):\r\n\r\nI'll try to give two that are just\u2014I don\u2019t know, a top two, but just two that are good. So I think one, one of the things in the research for this book that really stood out to me is how much more often women are interrupted than men, just in conversation. And I mean, I talk fast and just in general, I've tried to be less of an interrupter, but for men and women, I've been an interrupter and I'm sorry, probably even in this interview, forgive me.\r\n\r\nAshley (43:06):\r\n\r\nOf course. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nIt's funny. I've always\u2014is this what you're going to say?\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (43:08):\r\n\r\nI don't know what you're going to say. How would I know\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (43:10):\r\n\r\nI was going to say\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (43:10):\r\n\r\n\u2014what you're going to say?\r\n\r\nAnn (43:11):\r\n\r\nI notice that if\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (43:13):\r\n\r\nWhen you're on stage\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (43:14):\r\n\r\nOr even here, if you guys interrupt each other, you're like, \u201cOh, I'm really sorry.\u201d That has always stuck out to me. You've always done it. Both of you do that.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (43:21):\r\n\r\nI've noticed videos I've seen online where you're teaching at a marriage conference, you let Ashley talk and you don't interrupt. There are times I cut her off. She'll say something, I'm like\u2014 Dave is really respecting her. It's her moment. And you can tell by the way you're looking at her. You're like, \u201cThis is really good.\u201d\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nThis is good. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s just like she's talking\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Willis (43:43):\r\n\r\nI got a front row seat to some gold here.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (43:46):\r\n\r\nBut that's respect. It's modeled the way you treat one another.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (43:49):\r\n\r\nWell thank you. We try and try to teach that to our boys; that you don't interrupt, value what women have to say and give them the floor. And so that's one. What\u2019s one that you have.\r\n\r\nAshley (44:04):\r\n\r\nI know I keep coming back to it, but I would say the eyes. The eyes are so important, where your eyes go. I think a husband will build so much security and trust in his wife if he can just divert his eyes. I mean, again, you can notice something but diverting your eyes and you do that for me. We try to teach our boys to do the same thing. And I just know, and it doesn't go unseen. And I appreciate that. Whether it's a TV show, something\u2014on a lot of shows these days, it could be the number one show on Netflix. You start watching it and all of a sudden something crazy, a huge sex scene goes on. And we'll immediately fast forward or just turn it off. And that's also diverting your eyes. And I feel like, and this is in the open places, and even more so in the secret places, just not even letting the enemy get a foothold I think is so important. But a lot of it starts right there in the eyes. And then it's what you allow yourself to think about because that\u2019s how you lust.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s good. \r\n\r\nDave Wilson (44:56):\r\n\r\nDo you know the name Steve Ferrar? You know that name? \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nI don't think so. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nSteve was on our FamilyLife speaker, Weekend to Remember speaker team, so right when we joined. We're much younger than him. So he wrote a book called Point Man, and he had a military background, was a guy who leads a platoon into it\u2019s called point man. So he's like, you're the point man in your family. It's a great book about manhood. Just an amazing guy. And I'll never forget a story he tells in the book\u2014this is 30 some years ago\u2014where he just says they were sitting at a stoplight and he's with his teenage son and a girl walks across to go to the other side, and his son turns to his dad and goes, \u201cDad, you never look.\u201d He goes, \u201cWhat?\u201d He goes, \u201cI've watched you my whole life. Women walk by. That girl was very pretty. She wasn't dressed. You never look.\u201d And Steve says, \u201cI turned to him and said, \u2018Yeah, there's times I have.\u2019\u201d But his point is they're watching.\r\n\r\nAshley (45:51):\r\n\r\nThey are. \r\n\r\nDave Wilson (45:52):\r\n\r\nThey're watching every second. And what he was saying to you, his dad was, \u201cYou respect women and I'm watching and I'm learning how to be a man.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis (46:00):\r\n\r\nThat's the most powerful lesson more than anything we'll say, is just what we're doing as parents and as dads in this case. That's what they're watching so let's make sure we're respecting women.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (46:10):\r\n\r\nOur eyes, our words\u2014\r\n\r\nAshley (46:12):\r\n\r\nWords, yes.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (46:13):\r\n\r\n\u2014our body. I mean, porn is the ultimate disrespect of women. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nAbsolutely. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nIt's just like that is a signal to the world. They don't matter. They're just property. Right? I mean, yeah, it is something we have to model.\r\n\r\nAnn (46:28):\r\n\r\nAny other ones that come to your minds right off the top?\r\n\r\nAshley (46:30):\r\n\r\nWell, he mentioned words. I would say it's not just how you talk to your spouse, which is extremely important, not just for your spouse, but for your kids if you have children in the home, but also how you talk about women.\r\n\r\n(46:41):\r\n\r\nWe know people, and it shows in their marriage too, but they just have a derogatory view of women. And it probably goes back to how they were raised. And they don't even realize it. If you're a fish in water, you don't know what it's like to be out of the water until you are, and you're like, \u201cOh, there's another\u2014we can exist another way.\u201d And so I think it's just taking, really praying and saying, \u201cLord, reveal to me any blind spots I have and how I view women and help me to heal from that.\u201d Because I think that if you have this negative view of women, all women are X, Y, Z, or \u201cOh, I'm looking because she's putting it out there.\u201d I've heard that before.\r\n\r\n(47:16):\r\n\r\n\u201cWell, I'm looking only because she's showing her midriff, so she wants me to look.\u201d All these excuses, these lies we believe that we make excuses in our life, but we really, I think what it comes down to is just a really negative view of women. And I think taking those thoughts captive and really just thinking more positively, but also more respectfully about women, because then that's how you're going to speak about them. And really thinking about, how do I speak about women in my home? Is it always talking something negative about this woman at work, or the neighbor who's a woman or about your wife when your wife isn't around? I mean, really think about that because it not only has an effect on the people around you; it perpetuates your next thought. If you're always thinking negatively and always speaking negatively and disrespectfully, then that's all you're going to do.\r\n\r\nAnn (48:03):\r\n\r\nI would piggyback on that and say the words that Dave says about me in front of our boys, I think it's one of his greatest gifts. He's constantly complimenting me. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nThat's awesome.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (48:15):\r\n\r\nYou're easy to compliment.\r\n\r\nAnn (48:16):\r\n\r\nNo, you are so good at it. And I've watched our sons model that with their wives. I know that it's because you have always been my biggest cheerleader, like, \u201cOh, your mom's amazing. You should have seen your mom do that back in the day.\u201d And I'm like, \u201cMan, you are so nice to me.\u201d\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley (48:33):\r\n\r\nI love that.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn (48:33):\r\n\r\nAnd it's such a sweet gift, and it's such a great model for our kids to hear us complimenting our spouse.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (48:40):\r\n\r\nThat's so good.\r\n\r\nAnn (48:42):\r\n\r\nBoth ways.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (48:43):\r\n\r\nThe one, I'll footnote your footnote or whatever you just said.\r\n\r\nAnn (48:48):\r\n\r\nPiggyback.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (48:49):\r\n\r\nPiggyback. You're piggyback. One of the ways I think I disrespected Ann and men can do this, and it can go either way, is I would be harsh in my tone.\r\n\r\nAshley (49:01):\r\n\r\nOh, tone.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (49:02):\r\n\r\nEven sometimes it's saying the right thing, but it's sort of with a know-it-all attitude. It's a roll of the eyes like \u201cThat was stupid. You're stupid.\u201d And she would say, I remember one time she said, \u201cI am not stupid.\u201d I'm like, \u201cI didn't say you're stupid.\u201d \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nYeah. Your eye roll said. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nThat is so disrespect. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nAbsolutely. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nAnd I didn't realize I had it. You want to hear a funny story, which we put in our Vertical Marriage small group deal. But she tried to tell me that I was that way. \u201cYou're harsh at times.\u201d It was so a blind spot. I'd be like, \u201cI'm not harsh.\u201d And she's like Exhibit A, the way you said. And we're at her parents and with the kids when they were little. They all had boys. All her siblings had boys. We had 12 grandsons.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nNo granddaughters. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nAnd so they're all over the place. And I've got this little camcorder, back in the VCR days, I'm filming this thing. And later the parents came in, and everybody comes in. We're going to watch this video I made and at the end of the video, and everybody's watching this\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (50:02):\r\n\r\nWhen you were filming it?\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (50:03):\r\n\r\nYeah. And now we're watching it. I go up, you can see it on the camera. I go up to turn it off and I thought I turned it off, but I didn't so you see me do this. I come back and we get into it, and my harshness is right there.\r\n\r\nAshley (50:15):\r\n\r\nOh wow.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nIt's on the video.\r\n\r\nAnn (50:16):\r\n\r\nMy whole family is in the room, and my mom and dad are like, \u201cOh my\u201d\u2014 \r\n\r\nDave Wilson (50:21):\r\n\r\nHer brothers are like, \u201cDude.\u201d I'm running up there like stop right there. And I'm like, \u201cThere it is. Everything she's tried to tell me I was\u2014 \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nYou said he hadn\u2019t seen it.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s like a mirror. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nI saw it. I'm like, \u201cI'm an idiot. I am a jerk. I am a know-it-all punk.\u201d That's what I was.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (50:33):\r\n\r\nMost of us don't know. I mean, Ashley, you said to me before, sometimes you don't know. I'm not meaning\u2014 \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nHow you\u2019re coming off. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis: \r\n\r\n\u2014but your tone, not just to her, but just in general, I'll get going about something. And she was like, \u201cYou seem like so\u201d\u2014I'm like, \u201cI'm not angry. I'm just\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (50:53):\r\n\r\nPassionate. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (50:54):\r\n\r\nYes. She goes like, \u201cWell,\u201d she's very general, but she'll say, \u201cYou don't know how you're coming across. You're not seeing it.\u201d I am not seeing the VHS tape of myself or if I saw it, I\u2019d be like, \u201cI look like an idiot.\u201d And so you got to trust your spouse when they point out those blind spots.\r\n\r\nAnn (51:09):\r\n\r\nWell it's funny too because Dave, this was a battle for I remember four months trying to say \u201cIt's that. When you say that or you give me that look, it just shuts my spirit down,\u201d and he's like rolling his eyes again.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (51:21):\r\n\r\nWhich is disrespect.\r\n\r\nAnn (51:24):\r\n\r\nAnd I remember I couldn't figure out how to communicate it, but you know what I do remember doing is praying like, \u201cLord, he can't see it. If this isn't a deal, then I just need to stop being so sensitive. But Lord, if I could communicate it and you can help me to figure out how to communicate it, I think that would be really helpful.\u201d And so I'm watching him. I'm like, \u201cThis is God.\u201d \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nGod made a way.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (51:50):\r\n\r\nGod\u2019s like, \u201cI got this, Ann.\u201d\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nI got you, girl. VHS.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nVideo evidence, VHS for the win.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (51:57):\r\n\r\nI don't like that prayer. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nNo, I know. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nBut it definitely helped. Well, let me say this, just as we wrap up, go to Family\r\n\r\nlife.com\/SexTalk to get the video course from you guys. We're so glad you guys did that for FamilyLife.\r\n\r\nAnn (52:13):\r\n\r\nThis is a gift to FamilyLife.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (52:14):\r\n\r\nWhat a blessing that's going to be for people. It's really going to help and obviously share this podcast and this YouTube, whatever you watch. This is a great conversation for men and boys to understand how to respect women. And it's really both ways. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nAbsolutely.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nYes, it goes both ways, absolutely.\r\n\r\nAnn (52:29):\r\n\r\nAnd for women to listen to even know how to communicate. And maybe you listen to it as a woman and think, \u201cOh, we need to talk about this as a couple so that we can be on the same page with our kids, with our sons.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (52:39):\r\n\r\nI didn't mention we'll also have the book there. Well actually with the books at FamilyLifeToday.com, click on the show notes and get it. I mean, this thing, it's going to become a bestseller after this conversation. Again.\r\n\r\nAnn (52:53):\r\n\r\nHey, thanks for watching and if you liked this episode\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (52:56):\r\n\r\nYou better like it.\r\n\r\nAnn (52:57):\r\n\r\n\u2014just hit that like button.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (52:58):\r\n\r\nAnd we'd like you to subscribe. So all you got to do is go down and hit the subscribe\u2014I can't say the word subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don't think I can say this word. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nLike and subscribe. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nLook at that. You say it so easy. Subscribe. There it goes.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?  \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife.com                                 \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\n"],"ssp_guid":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/how-to-raise-boys-who-respect-girls-dave-and-ashley-willis\/"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-317288.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-317288.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__video-wrap video{opacity: 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});\";s:18:\"current_block_list\";a:17:{i:0;s:14:\"uagb\/container\";i:1;s:12:\"core\/heading\";i:2;s:9:\"core\/html\";i:3;s:10:\"core\/group\";i:6;s:21:\"uagb\/advanced-heading\";i:7;s:14:\"uagb\/separator\";i:8;s:14:\"uagb\/icon-list\";i:9;s:20:\"uagb\/icon-list-child\";i:10;s:11:\"core\/search\";i:13;s:18:\"core\/legacy-widget\";i:16;s:10:\"uagb\/image\";i:17;s:17:\"core\/social-links\";i:18;s:16:\"core\/social-link\";i:19;s:14:\"core\/paragraph\";i:20;s:30:\"meta-box\/fl-conditional-blocks\";i:21;s:12:\"uagb\/buttons\";i:22;s:18:\"uagb\/buttons-child\";}s:8:\"uag_flag\";b:1;s:11:\"uag_version\";i:1776384200;s:6:\"gfonts\";a:1:{s:7:\"Default\";a:2:{s:10:\"fontfamily\";s:7:\"Default\";s:12:\"fontvariants\";a:0:{}}}s:10:\"gfonts_url\";s:71:\"\/\/fonts.googleapis.com\/css?family=Default&subset=latin&display=fallback\";s:12:\"gfonts_files\";a:0:{}s:14:\"uag_faq_layout\";b:0;}"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2025\/02\/image_bbee74.jpg",1024,1024,true]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"On FamilyLife Today, Dave and Ann Wilson are keeping it real with Dave and Ashley Willis--on raising boys who truly respect women. From Dave Willis' battle with porn shame to Ashley\u2019s practical trust-building, they share honest, guilt-free advice on how everyday moments\u2014like mall trips and swimsuit magazines\u2014become teachable lessons on sex and boundaries, and how&hellip;","meta_box":{"show_notes":"\n<ul>\n<li>Get FamilyLife's resource, \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/sexual-wholeness\/home\/\">How to Talk to Your Kids about Sex<\/a>\u201d with videos for parents and kids<\/li>\n<li>Get Dave and Ashley's book, \"<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/raising-boys-who-respect-girls\/\">Respecting Boys, Raising Boys Who Respect Girls<\/a>\" in our shop<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-10-23.pdf","transcript_content":"\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nHow to Raise Boys Who Respect Girls\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nGuests:Dave and Ashley Willis\r\n\r\nRelease Date:October 23, 2025\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis (00:00):\r\n\r\nWe just tried to make it not weird to talk about real things from an early age.\r\n\r\nAshley (00:04):\r\n\r\nYou want to talk about the bus?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (00:05):\r\n\r\nOne of our son's first day of eighth grade\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (00:07):\r\n\r\nOh yeah.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (00:07):\r\n\r\n\u2014came home and he was like, \u201cDo girls really like it when guys text pictures of their private parts to them? And we're like\u2014\r\n\r\nAshley (00:14):\r\n\r\n\u201cWhat?\u201d \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nThis is eighth grade. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nEighth grade.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (00:17):\r\n\r\nBut not freaking out in front of your kids is huge.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (00:23):\r\n\r\nSo we have Dave and Ashley Wilson in the studio today.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:27):\r\n\r\nI want to have banners.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nYou didn\u2019t hear what I said. Did you guys catch what I said?\r\n\r\nAshley (00:31):\r\n\r\nI did.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (00:31):\r\n\r\nI did.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (00:31):\r\n\r\nThere\u2019re so many people that call us Willis. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:33):\r\n\r\nWait, what did you say?\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nDave and Ashley Wilson. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nI said Wilson. You ever get called Wilson? \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (00:38):\r\n\r\nI would change my name and be legally adopted by you two.\r\n\r\nAshley (00:42):\r\n\r\nOh my goodness.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (00:42):\r\n\r\nAnd the sad thing is we're old enough to probably do that. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nNo, not quite. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nI was going to say not quite. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nWe have David and Ashley Willis. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nYou be my adopted big brother.\r\n\r\nAshley (00:52):\r\n\r\nThere you go. There you go.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (00:53):\r\n\r\nNo hair. I'd take your hair and your name. But anyway, I don't know if that's the way we want to start, but we're starting that way. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nWelcome to the broadcast. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nWe love you guys so much that it's just a joy to have you here. We watch you. We watch your videos. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nWe follow you. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson: \r\n\r\nAnd follow your life. And it's fun when you get to come to Orlando. We get to sit here. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (01:13):\r\n\r\nWe love hanging out with you guys.\r\n\r\nAshley (01:13):\r\n\r\nOh, we do. It's a real treat. It really is. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nAnd it's fun because we're all passionate about Jesus, but marriage is something that man, it beats in our blood and we want people to have better marriages, better families. So we have a lot in common that way. What are we doing today?\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (01:28):\r\n\r\nWe're going to talk about different things. First of all, Dave, you wrote a book and of course you remember this. This was during COVID, right?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (01:35):\r\n\r\nYeah. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nPretty close. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nYeah. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nIt came out during COVID.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nIt came out during COVID; wrote it, yeah, probably like the year leading up to COVID.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (01:42):\r\n\r\nHere it is. If you're watching on YouTube.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (01:43):\r\n\r\nStill an important message.\r\n\r\nAnn Wilson (01:46):\r\n\r\nYeah, it is. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nSo my first question is this; Ashley, you tell us, how does Dave respect you?\r\n\r\nAshley (01:53):\r\n\r\nOh my goodness. I mean so many ways. I think he always tries to give me his best attention and listens well to me. I feel like he shows our boys how to respect me by how he treats me every day and just showing me respect in his time, in his words, in his eyes. I think that he celebrates me well and it trickles down to our boys. And so I feel like our boys wouldn't have as much respect for me as they do if you didn't teach them that just through your example because you do such a great job of that.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (02:27):\r\n\r\nWell, she's very easy to respect first off, so I have it easy in that department because I am married to the best person. But it's important. I don't know for you dads who are listening, our kids are watching you, our example as fathers. I had somebody tell me when I was a young father, \u201cYou're teaching your sons how to respect women and you're teaching your daughters what they should expect from men someday by your example, by the way you're treating your spouse.\u201d And so that really stuck with me and I thought, \u201cMan,\u201d and we never had daughters, but with my sons, I want to model that. I want them to catch that. If they don't catch much else from me, I want them to at least catch that. But they have such an amazing mom. She is very easy to respect.\r\n\r\nAnn (03:18):\r\n\r\nDave, did that always come naturally?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (03:21):\r\n\r\nI think that it came naturally in that I had a great mom myself.\r\n\r\nAshley (03:26):\r\n\r\nHer name is Karen and she's amazing.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (03:27):\r\n\r\nYeah, I still do. I say it not past tense. I still have a great mom. Mom, if you're listening, you\u2019re the best. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nAnd a great dad.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nAnd a great dad. They're the best. I will say something that kind of temporarily sabotaged my thinking is when I was a teenager into young adulthood, I got into pornography, which is part of our testimony, my testimony, that we've talked a lot about. And that whole mindset shift of just having those toxic, objectifying images in my brain really sabotaged me for a time in how I saw myself and how I saw women and how I saw sex.\r\n\r\nAnn (04:02):\r\n\r\nWhat did that look like? How did it affect how you saw yourself?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (04:07):\r\n\r\nNo sin ever stays in the little compartment you build for it, right? So if you think, \u201cWell, this is just an escape or this is just entertainment\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (04:13):\r\n\r\nIt's not hurting anybody.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (04:14):\r\n\r\n\u201c\u2014it's not hurting anybody,\u201d all the lies that we believe\u2014that I believed at least, and I think many others have believed around porn, but it's insidious. It's like a cancerous tumor that metastasizes. It breaks open and it starts affecting all these other things. And so in terms of how I saw myself, I started having less respect for myself because I was wrapped up in this thing that I knew to be wrong. I wasn't taking steps to get help from it.\r\n\r\nAnn Wilson (04:40):\r\n\r\nWas it a secret?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (04:42):\r\n\r\nIt was a secret for a long time.\r\n\r\nAshley (04:43):\r\n\r\nFor a long time. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nAnd you were married?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (04:45):\r\n\r\nWell, I started when I was unmarried, but I fell back into it in our newlywed years. And then I dealt with the shame of that. I knew Jesus said to look with lust is to commit adultery in your heart. And I'm like, \u201cOh my goodness, I'm being unfaithful.\u201d And I hated myself for it. There was a lot of self-loathing. But there's a verse in the Proverbs that says, \u201cLike a dog that returns to its vomit, so a fool will repeat his foolishness.\u201d I was that dog. I would return to the gross thing, and knowing it's gross, but it's like I just couldn't break out of that cycle.\r\n\r\nAnn (05:16):\r\n\r\nSo that probably created shame.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (05:17):\r\n\r\nIt did. It created shame. And as much as I would say I respected Ashley even through that, I don't know that at that point in my life I was fully respecting anybody because just my whole mindset had been devalued. And so as a result, I was devaluing myself, devaluing others, and it was just a negative place to be. And so I think part of getting to a place of respect and just living the way God wants us to live is renewing our minds from just the junk that's there. And porn isn't the only form of junk. I think we can take on junk that impacts our relationships from our own, the homes we grew up in and maybe toxic behaviors we saw there, or words that were spoken to us when we were kids that have shaped our thinking about ourselves in unhealthy ways, or past relationships we've had, or just flawed messages we see from pop culture. I mean, there's a billion different ways to get the wrong message, but when we go back to God's Word and allow His Word to really renew our mind and to bring hope and healing and renewal and grace, then we can start seeing ourselves the way He sees us, and we can start seeing other people through His eyes. And the more we do that, the more we're going to respect each other because God has so much respect for people.\r\n\r\n(06:32):\r\n\r\nHe created us in His image for His glory. And so when you're objectifying another person or disrespecting another person, you're really disrespecting God who created them in His image. And so understanding that, I think just that principle can help all of us respect ourselves, respect the opposite sex and see humanity the way God wants us to.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (06:57):\r\n\r\nI mean, talk us through the struggle of porn in your marriage. I know there's couples listening right now, some of them just went, \u201cOh, I have a secret. They're talking about it. I don't even know if I'm going to tell her or tell him.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (07:11):\r\n\r\nAnd maybe the wife is suspecting something.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (07:13):\r\n\r\nYeah. So how did you guys navigate? I mean, number one, you're talking about it. We're from a generation where you couldn't even mention that. And now we have marriage authors, leaders saying, \u201cThis was a struggle\u201d that a lot of people just said\u2014I remember first time I mentioned it at my church, in the nineties. I didn't tell my co-founder I was going to share this with the church, that I had a struggle. And I remember as I said that I thought\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (07:38):\r\n\r\nAnd it was past tense.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (07:39):\r\n\r\nYeah, it was past tense. But I was trying to say this has been something I had to walk through. I remember having this thought, \u201cI might get fired today\u201d because a leader shouldn't have this struggle. And I'm not only saying I have it or had it; I'm going to talk about it publicly. And as I walked off the stage, Steve looked at me and said, \u201cYou just changed our church.\u201d And I'm like, \u201cUh oh, am I fired?\u201d And he is like, \u201cNo. This is now going to be a church where people can be honest and real.\u201d So you've gone the same route. You said, \u201cWe're going to talk about this.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis (08:07):\r\n\r\nWell, we have to be honest and real, and God blesses that. I mean, He blessed your church. Your church saw explosive growth after that. \r\n\r\nDave Wilson (08:12):\r\n\r\nIt became a place where people felt like they could be safe. But it was a hard thing in our marriage.\r\n\r\nAnn (08:18):\r\n\r\nHorrible.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (08:18):\r\n\r\nBecause I wanted to keep it my private struggle. \u201cI'm going to win this thing and I'm going to battle it, and she's not going to need to know because I'm going to win\u201d and then I'd fall. And so it couldn't be a secret anymore. So how did it go for you guys?\r\n\r\nAshley (08:31):\r\n\r\nOh man. Well, Dave always likes to say that he wished that he had just come out with it. He dealt with this for so long in the early years of our marriage. And I knew, I think as spouses, we often know something's off, but we don't always know what it is. And I remember for a while thinking something's off here. Because one of the things that attracted me to Dave the most, the first time I met him was he had what I refer to as honest eyes. And I just said, when I look at you, I feel like you're totally looking back at me and you're not hiding anything. And I just found that, I mean, I clearly was attracted to you physically, but my heart was attracted to you\u2014 \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nYou felt safe.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\n\u2014with the honesty. Right, I felt security and safety.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (09:09):\r\n\r\nI mean, when she said that, Dave, did you feel like you're not honest because I have this struggle?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (09:15):\r\n\r\nWell, I think at the time we were together, first getting together, I wasn't looking at porn. It had been a past struggle, but I would have these kinds of little stints of sobriety with it. And I thought, \u201cOkay, well I'm free from that. That's part of my past and I don't need to tell her,\u201d which was my first mistake, not telling her it had even been part of my past struggle. But in those early years of our dating, if I'm remembering, I think I was free from it. So there was an honesty. I mean, I was being honest, but then when I fell back into it, which even took me by surprise, I was hiding in shame. And Ashley, who's very perceptive, knew something was off and we were living in that tension.\r\n\r\nAshley (09:59):\r\n\r\nAnd I would even say sometimes, \u201cAre you okay?\u201d And he's like, \u201cYeah, I'm fine. Work is crazy.\u201d You know what I'm saying?\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (10:06):\r\n\r\nThat is exactly our conversation.\r\n\r\nAnn (10:07):\r\n\r\nYou feel it, something's off. I remember saying the same thing. \u201cIs something up? I just feel like a separation from us.\u201d\r\n\r\nAshley (10:14):\r\n\r\nYes, a distance. And he would be so concerned, and I would see it. Now that I've been married to him almost 25 years, I know, I think I could read him like a book, but we were still getting to know each other in all of our cues that we give. And I knew there was something; porn was nowhere on my radar. And Dave always says, till this day, he's like, \u201cOne of my biggest regrets is not telling you that I had struggled with this before we got married, that this was part of my past.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (10:44):\r\n\r\nBecause then it would've been on your radar.\r\n\r\nAshley (10:46):\r\n\r\nYes, and I could have been like, \u201cHave you looked at porn? Just be honest with me.\u201d And then we could have dealt with it. But he had built up so much shame. He had allowed shame to really creep in because he not only had not told me about the past struggle; he now was back in that struggle. And every time he said he just did not have the courage to tell me, and he wished that he had.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (11:05):\r\n\r\nI didn't want to disappoint you. I didn't want to be seen as a failure or weak or any of these things. So whatever lies I was believing, it kept it in the dark until she just found it. \r\n\r\nAshley (11:16):\r\n\r\nI found it, and I wasn't looking for it.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (11:17):\r\n\r\nThis was before smartphones even. This was old school on an old clunky desktop computer. She found these terrible places where I'd been looking. And so then all at once, it's brought out into the open in a really drastic way. And she called and said, \u201cIs there something you need to tell me?\u201d And I immediately, I knew, and I mean I was heartbroken and relieved at the same time, and I said, \u201cYou found it, and I'm so sorry.\u201d And that put us on the path to healing. But even the path to healing was messy. I mean, it was so deeply ingrained in my mind. I know there was at least one relapse that I had, which just brought the same shame cycle all over again. And it was messy. Rebuilding trust takes time. I've heard it said Trust is built in drops and lost in buckets.\u201d And I dumped out a bucket load of trust all at once.\r\n\r\n(12:10):\r\n\r\nShe was so full of grace though, even in her woundedness, to walk with me and allow me to rebuild that trust over time. And for us to put safeguards in place to just make sure through filtering software and accountability and all the things that came with it, that we would have a household of honesty and transparency. And as our boys started coming along, I think having worked through that early in our marriage, it kind of gave us a foundation for knowing we want to raise them in a way where we're honest about these things. They're in a world where they're going to be bombarded with all the wrong kinds of images, and we don't want any of that to take root in them or shame to take root in them when they do stumble, but we're going to start having conversations early.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (12:56):\r\n\r\nYeah. How'd that look like with your boys? I mean, did you share your struggle as a dad with your sons when they got to a certain age?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (13:03):\r\n\r\nYeah, I mean in age specific ways we've tried to be completely honest and just by nature of what we do, we talk so openly about this stuff. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nYou don't have a choice. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nI don't have a choice, right, because it\u2019s like\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (13:15):\r\n\r\nI mean, your ministry used to be called Naked Marriage.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (13:16):\r\n\r\nRight. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nRight. Yeah, exactly.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (13:17):\r\n\r\nAnd everybody thought \u201cWhat does that mean?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis (13:18):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s like, \u201cYou were talking about this on stage an hour ago. You can't pretend like this didn't happen.\u201d So that keeps me honest. What we do keeps me honest.\r\n\r\nAnn (13:27):\r\n\r\nWhat is age-appropriate you guys, to have those conversations of your own past? What do you think?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (13:33):\r\n\r\nGosh, I think it depends in some ways on the child. I don't know if it's like you hit this age, tell them everything on their 12th birthday. I don't think it's like that. I think you have to have discretion about the level of detail.\r\n\r\n(13:48):\r\n\r\nI think you can give them principles of, \u201cI made mistakes in this area.\u201d And then as they get older and maybe their temptations get more specific, then you can get more specific in kind of what your past struggles were, what happened as a result of the right choices and the wrong choices you made. And we tried to be honest about both, about here's a time when I overcame temptation and it was a victory story, but they learn even more from the times you say, \u201cMe, I blew it in this area and this is what that looked like, and this is what I felt, and this is the shame I was carrying.\u201d\r\n\r\n(14:26):\r\n\r\nBut we just tried to make it not weird to talk about real things from an early age. We would talk about their anatomy and like, \u201cOh, God made you a boy. That's great.\u201d We would use specific words for their anatomy and say, \u201cThat's great. You're going to be a man someday and be able to be a dad. And your anatomy's never dirty. There's never any of that. It's private and people aren't allowed to touch you there.\u201d Sure. And \u201cYou tell us if there's anybody that ever tries to violate that.\u201d But not creating atmospheres where they would feel like they had to live in secrecy or shame as they started having these feelings about sex and puberty and all that. So I think that's how it started.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (15:09):\r\n\r\nBy the way, I just put it in a little call to action right now. You guys have just done for FamilyLife a How to Talk to Your Kids About Sex videos series. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nIt's a new curriculum.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (15:20):\r\n\r\nI'm so excited about this resource.\r\n\r\nAshley (15:23):\r\n\r\nSo excited.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (15:23):\r\n\r\nI think the team at FamilyLife did a stellar job. We got to partner with an amazing team to put together this resource. We're the ones teaching on it, but it was a team effort putting together this curriculum. And I think it's some of the most helpful, practical resources I've seen anywhere. Again, the team puts so much into it to help parents, guide parents, in age-specific ways to have these conversations with boys and girls. It's not just for sons.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nYes, for both.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (15:49):\r\n\r\nOh, it is. Yeah. That's good. And by the way, just go to FamilyLife.com\/SexTalk and you get Dave and Ashley talking about probably some of the stuff you just said.\r\n\r\nAshley (15:56):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (15:56):\r\n\r\nDo you even get into porn?\r\n\r\nAshley (15:58):\r\n\r\nAbsolutely.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (15:58):\r\n\r\nYeah. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (15:59):\r\n\r\nWe talk about all of it.\r\n\r\nAnn (16:01):\r\n\r\nAnd it's called How to Talk to Your Kids About Sex.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (16:10):\r\n\r\nSo how and when do you talk to your kids about sex? What we've learned with raising four is that you start early. It's not one talk. It's a series of conversations in age-appropriate ways that start early by celebrating their gender, by being specific about their anatomy, talking about appropriate, inappropriate touch as they get into early pre-adolescence. It's talking about puberty and the mechanics of sex.\r\n\r\nAshley (16:32):\r\n\r\nExactly. And boundaries as they enter into dating. And then you just keep talking about it. And as you lay this foundation of being an open place to talk about these things, you're building trust and they're going to come back to you with questions. And we try to answer those questions as best we can by being honest even about our own experiences. And I'm telling you that makes them lean in and that makes them want to come to you again and again,\r\n\r\nDave Willis (16:54):\r\n\r\nFamilyLife\u2019s How to Talk to Your Kids About Sex.\r\n\r\nAshley (17:01):\r\n\r\nI think it gets intimidating for us as parents, especially with your question, like how did you or did you even approach the fact that porn is part of his past, with our kids? And I think it's really important to know that there's no perfect parents out there with the perfect past. And so we have to come at this knowing that we're not perfect. Our kids already know that. My goodness, probably more than anybody. But I think even as we talk about sex to be real with them, to be authentic with them at an age-appropriate level, it gives them that safe place to come back with questions. Because it's not just one sex talk. It's a multitude of talks, right, over the course of time. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnd like Dave said, it gets more detailed as they get a bit older and have those questions. But I feel like we knew back then when we had little kids that we would need to talk to them about this part of our marriage. And when the time came, we really talked about it as a couple, what do we want to share and what can we teach them from this? And we've been able to do that with each of our kids and put those safeguards in place as well that we still have till this day; to just not have porn at all, be part of our lives.\r\n\r\n(18:03):\r\n\r\nAnd I want to say this specifically as it comes to, with Dave having this past porn struggle, how did he try to of course correct and then respect me as a woman? One of the greatest things he did was really pay attention to where his eyes would go. And I think this is something like even in the counseling space, this is something I often hear from wives, not just with husbands with a porn struggle, but just husbands who have trouble with where their eyes go. It is so crushing to a wife when they feel like they have to monitor their husband's eyes, and they can't trust that he's not going to look twice. Because here's the deal\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Willis (18:37):\r\n\r\nLinger on an Instagram picture a little too long that's maybe a little provocative or there's, sorry to interrupt, but there's just so many different ways that a guy can\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (18:48):\r\n\r\nAnd it's crushing to a woman\u2014\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s so crushing.\r\n\r\nAnn (18:49):\r\n\r\n\u2014because we already feel insecure.\r\n\r\nAshley (18:51):\r\n\r\nExactly. And the deal is we can't control if an attractive person pops up on our screen, walks by our house, we see them out at a restaurant or whatever. There\u2019re beautiful people everywhere. We can notice them, but we get to choose whether or not we keep staring or we keep looking or we start lusting over them. And so I just remember back in those days especially, I never really felt like I had to pay attention to that with Dave. But after I discovered that he had a porn issue, that was definitely on my mind. Well, what else is he looking at? It makes you doubt everything. And I was like, \u201cOh my gosh, is he thinking this lady over here is hot? Is he lusting about her?\u201d I mean, you're thinking those things. And I just remember he would go out of his way just to avoid situations where it would be super tempting, like gyms. We at one point changed our gym because we just didn't want it to be a temptation. Instead of going to the amazing popular gym in town, we went to the YMCA.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (19:44):\r\n\r\nWhich I loved because the average age, there was about 94. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nIt really was.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nIn baggy long t-shirts. \r\n\r\nAshley (19:53):\r\n\r\nThis is true.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nYou feel better about yourself.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (19:54):\r\n\r\nI felt so much better about myself.\r\n\r\nAshley (19:55):\r\n\r\nA confidence boost.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (19:56):\r\n\r\nI did. I made all kinds of friends. I'd walk around drinking coffee for the first hour. I did. And then when I finally started working out, I'd be like, \u201cI am strong. Look at this.\u201d I got 10-pound dumbbells, but I felt like Arnold Schwarzenegger.\r\n\r\nAnn (20:10):\r\n\r\nYou guys there some couples hearing that're like, \u201cThis is ridiculous.\u201d \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nOh, I'm sure they think that. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nAnd yet, Ashley, what did that mean to you?\r\n\r\nAshley (20:17):\r\n\r\nIt meant the world. It meant that I'm a higher priority. I mean, honestly, I wasn't going to that gym thinking, \u201cOh, he's looking.\u201d But Dave was like, \u201cSweetie,\u201d he goes, \u201cI just think we need to go to the Y where it's not even a thing.\u201d Because there would just be a lot of scantily dressed women there. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (20:34):\r\n\r\nPeople, men and women\u2014\r\n\r\nAshley (20:35):\r\n\r\nMen too!\r\n\r\nDave Willis (20:35):\r\n\r\n\u2014that were wearing things to be noticed.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (20:38):\r\n\r\nThey want you to look.\r\n\r\nAnn (20:38):\r\n\r\nYes, that\u2019s why they're dressed that way.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (20:41):\r\n\r\nYes. Well, think about what you're also, I mean, your kids are probably little then, but if they're old enough to watch what's happening, you are showing your sons, this is how you respect your wife. You change where you work out. \r\n\r\nAnn (20:53):\r\n\r\nHave you had that conversation and told them that?\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nOh, I think so.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (20:56):\r\n\r\nYeah. I\u2019ve told my older boys, and they got into gyms, and I would say, \u201cYeah, I used to go there, and this is why I stopped.\u201d And now we just have some weights at home. And that's like\u2014so now it's great. You just work out at home. But yeah, I've talked to them about that. I said, \u201cBecause everywhere I looked, it felt like an unsafe place to look in that place.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (21:20):\r\n\r\nI remember\u2014we shared this before\u2014but when I was walking through a mall in Atlanta, Georgia, actually, Dalton, Georgia\u2014you know where that is? That's where her parents lived.\r\n\r\nAshley (21:30):\r\n\r\nNice.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (21:30):\r\n\r\nAnd so it's me with the three boys, and I'm guessing my oldest was maybe 11, so 11, 9, 6. And they're in front of me, and I walk in and I see in the middle of this mall, not in a store, but there's this little magazine rack and it was low to the ground, and there's like Sports Illustrated swimsuit\u2014it's some kind of swimsuit issue. And I'm literally looking at my boys to see if they notice it, and I notice my older son saw it. The other two, too young; didn't even notice it. So I grabbed this\u2014and CJ's given permission to say this\u2014but I grabbed him. I think he's 11, and he hit maturity early, so he looks like he's like 13, 14.\r\n\r\n(22:12):\r\n\r\nI go, \u201cHey, CJ, did you see that magazine rack up there?\u201d He goes, \u201cNo, no, I didn't see it.\u201d I go, \u201cI did.\u201d He goes, \u201cOh, well, yeah, I saw it.\u201d I go, and I'll never forget it. And I'm down at his level and the other two boys are running around and I go, \u201cHey, did you want to look at that girl in her bathing suit?\u201d He goes, \u201cOh, no, I didn't want to look.\u201d I go, \u201cWell, I wanted to look.\u201d He goes, \u201cWell, yeah, I wanted to look too.\u201d And I go, \u201cSo did you look?\u201d He goes, \u201cNo, I didn't look.\u201d I go, \u201cYeah, I saw you; you looked.\u201d And so all I did was go, \u201cHey, that's normal. She's a very beautiful woman. She's on this cover. That's normal. You're going to want to look. But you know what I do, CJ? I don't have eyes for anybody but your mom. And so when I see that kind of thing, I turn.\u201d I go, \u201cLet's make a path.\u201d And I'll never forget, it was one of those moments like, \u201cWe are in this together.\u201d Teaching him about sex was not really\u2014it was an intentional moment. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nIt's a great moment. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nThe other boys weren't there yet. That day will come. But man, that was a moment to respect women.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s so good.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (23:09):\r\n\r\nHe'll never forget. That's what the whole point of this book is. And the whole point of our, well, our video course is looking for those moments to just lead by example and make it a teachable moment without putting shame on them, to say, \u201cListen, it's normal. It's natural that you're going to notice. You're going to have these feelings. You're going to be drawn. There's not shame in that, but it's what we do with those feelings. Realizing God has a time and a place within marriage someday for all of that to be expressed in a beautiful and healthy way. But until then, any expression to that is going to be a counterfeit on some level that's going to hurt you and others, but don't feel bad that you have these feelings. Just it means you're becoming an adult.\u201d And so you can celebrate their growth at the same time while teaching.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:55):\r\n\r\nWith some safeguards.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (23:55):\r\n\r\nWith safeguards, which you did. And that's a great example.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:57):\r\n\r\nWhen we talk about, and you talk about in this book, the locker room mentality, what is that? Is this what we're talking about?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (24:09):\r\n\r\nYeah, well, the locker room mentality\u2014 \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nBe careful. I've been in a lot of locker rooms. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nI know. Hey, well, yeah, I wasn't as athletic as this Dave, so I didn't have as many locker rooms. I have been in locker rooms. I think though what I'm referring to is just when guys get in guy-only spaces\u2014and it doesn't have to be an actual locker room\u2014but the mentality there when guys can get in guy-only spaces and the jokes all of a sudden can become degrading to women, or the talk can become overly sexualized, the bravado or trying to project, and we don't outgrow it. I was at a gym not that long ago\u2014again, like an older person gym; that's where I hang\u2014and there were two guys in their\u2014they both had to be in their seventies, and they were talking together about porn as if\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (25:03):\r\n\r\nReally? \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s what they're into.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (25:04):\r\n\r\nYes, two seventies-year-old guys. And one was saying, \u201cYeah, I gave my laptop to my grandson, but I had to have my tech guy wipe it because I had all my good porn on there, and I didn't want him to see that.\u201d But they were talking about porn like you would just talk about cars or sports or whatever.\r\n\r\nAshley (25:25):\r\n\r\nLike \u201cHave you seen the latest movie?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis (25:26):\r\n\r\nIt was just such a natural\u2014and I just kind of sat there as a fly on the wall for a while and thought, \u201cYou know what, without intentionality, we never outgrow sin.\u201d\r\n\r\n(25:36):\r\n\r\nYou never outgrow just sexual sin or lust or that mindset that disrespects women, that objectifies, and so it's not just a thing of like, \u201cWell, we got to teach our kids because when they're teenagers, this'll be a temptation, but then they'll outgrow it and it won't be a thing.\u201d No, without Christ changing your heart and renewing your mind, and without being intentional of saying, \u201cI don't want to live that way,\u201d then we're all going to be the old guy at the gym someday that's still creepy, that's still\u2014and it was\u2014 \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nThat is creepy to me. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nIt is but it was so normal. That's what surprised Dave and I the most.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (26:15):\r\n\r\nIt wasn't like, \u201cOh, I'm struggling with this. It was just like\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (26:18):\r\n\r\nThis is normal.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (26:18):\r\n\r\nThis is normal. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nThis is what men do. It's scary.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nThis is what men do, and men talk about.\r\n\r\nAshley (26:22):\r\n\r\nAnd it's making so little of men, and it's holding them to such a low standard if that's normal.\r\n\r\nAnn (26:27):\r\n\r\nAnd it's keeping them captive and it's affecting their future relationships with every single woman that they'll have. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nAbsolutely. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nAnd the same is happening with women where porn has become so normalized and that, \u201cYeah, it's okay for women to look at it too.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis (26:42):\r\n\r\nIt's empowering even, they say.\r\n\r\nAnn (26:43):\r\n\r\nExactly. And that's affecting our futures. And we all know because we've been married a while, this really\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (26:50):\r\n\r\nWe've been married a little longer than you guys.\r\n\r\nAshley (26:51):\r\n\r\nI know. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nIt really affects your marriage relationship and your legacy.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (26:55):\r\n\r\nSure it does.\r\n\r\nAnn (26:56):\r\n\r\nThat's sad to me. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nIt was sad to me, yeah.\r\n\r\nAshley (27:01):\r\n\r\nIt is.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (27:02):\r\n\r\nYeah, I, believe it or not, right now, play on a softball team.\r\n\r\nAshley (27:06):\r\n\r\nAwesome.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (27:07):\r\n\r\nIt may be called senior softball. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nSeasoned, seasoned softball. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nSeasoned, there you go. I like that. You should see us run. It's ugly, but it's none of these guys are church guys. They call me \u201cThe rabbi.\u201d \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nOh, wow. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nWhich is hilarious because they don't even know they\u2019re right.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nThey don't even know that that\u2019s\u2014\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nThey're like, \u201cHey, rabbi;\u201d it's just funny. But it's a normal conversation for these guys to talk about the porn they looked at this weekend. I mean, it's just wow. And they don't even blink at that. I'm sitting right there and I'm in there, \u201cHey, guys,\u201d not that you can't talk about this. It was like, \u201cDo you understand what you're doing to women?\u201d And they just laugh. \u201cWhat? Women, that's what they want.\u201d Oh my goodness. And they're all married. I love these guys. I'm there. I want to be the light of Jesus in this world. But that's how normal it is. And you wrote this in 19, and it's even gotten worse.\r\n\r\nAshley (28:02):\r\n\r\nOh yeah.\r\n\r\nAnn (28:02):\r\n\r\nAshley, what have those conversations been like with your boys about this topic? Because with a mom, it's like we wonder, \u201cDo I have those conversations with our sons? Dave's having those, do I chime in too of what it makes me feel as a woman?\u201d What's that been like?\r\n\r\nAshley (28:19):\r\n\r\nAt first, I had those questions, \u201cShould I just let Dave do the talking in this area?\u201d He had the background with porn, and it'd be like man to man. And I don't know, as we've kind of navigated it through the years, I've gotten more comfortable. And Dave actually was like, \u201cSweetie, I think they need to hear from you as a woman and how that made you feel, and how if a man's staring you down and looking at you sexually, how does that make you feel? The dude in the grocery store or whatever or things like that and just talking to the boys about it.\u201d \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nSo I have. I've been like, \u201cListen, you need to watch where your eyes go.\u201d I talk a lot about that. I know as of right now, we have an 18-year-old and 20-year-old, and I know those hormones are raging, and I'm like, \u201cYou got to get a grip on this, and it's up to you, and God will give you the ability to do that, but you have to be mindful of where your eyes are going and you can't just follow the crowd and get wrapped up in all of this.\u201d\r\n\r\n(29:14):\r\n\r\nAnd so I've been able to talk to them from that perspective. And I do. We have one son who has a girlfriend right now. And a lot of times I'll be like, \u201cHow are you showing respect to your girlfriend?\u201d And just talking through what that looks like. And really, it's been really neat to have that open conversation. And I would say a lot of times they'll ask me questions now because we've had those conversations. So they'll come to me and say like, \u201cMom, what do you think about this?\u201d And just we talk through it pretty openly. I mean, I think that, like Dave said, with the work we do, we might be more open than the next person just because we talk about this all the time. But I do think that as parents, we do have a responsibility to open up the conversation. It might even start off very awkward.\r\n\r\n(29:56):\r\n\r\nI mean, I know ours really did, but we're really cultivating a safe place. We're reminding our kids, \u201cHey, the world's going to tell you a lot of things, but we need you to come to us and you can come to us and we're going to give you the best answer we can. And it's going to be based on biblical truth. And we're going to tell you too, where we feel like we've done this right and where we've really gone wrong and what we've learned.\u201d And thankfully they do bring us some questions. There's been times where I have to, Dave has to grab my arms to wipe the shock off my face. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (30:25):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\n\u201cWhat?!\u201d \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nJust be shocked later, not right now. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nAnd he's like, \u201cThis is what we want.\u201d\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nBe curious. Yeah.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (30:32):\r\n\r\nWe meet a ton of couples who say FamilyLife helped them when they need it the most. And that's what being a FamilyLife Partner is all about, helping others find that same encouragement and tools that you found right here.\r\n\r\nAnn (30:44):\r\n\r\nAnd we'd love for you to join us. So click the donate button at FamilyLifeToday.com and become a Partner today.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (30:51):\r\n\r\nDo it. I don't know, that might've been a one.\r\n\r\nAnn (30:53):\r\n\r\nYou did a really good one. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nThat might've been a one taker.\r\n\r\nAshley (30:57):\r\n\r\nYou want to talk about the bus?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (30:58):\r\n\r\nYeah. I think\u2014\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nThis was a memorable one. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\n\u2014this is early in the book. One of our son's first day of eighth grade came home and he was like, \u201cHey, is it normal? Do girls really like it when guys text pictures of their private parts to him?\u201d And were like\u2014\r\n\r\nAshley (31:12):\r\n\r\nWhat?! \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nThis is eighth grade? \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nEighth grade.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (31:15):\r\n\r\nHe was like, \u201cYeah, these boys on the bus, they were taking pictures of their private parts and then trying to show people and laughing and texting and saying, \u2018Girls love getting pictures like this.\u2019\u201d And he was like; I could tell he was really confused and troubled by it.\r\n\r\nAnn (31:28):\r\n\r\nI love that he came to you. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (31:31):\r\n\r\nHe came to us, yeah. I'm so glad he did, and Ashley, I think her instinct was \u201cWho are these kids?\u201d\r\n\r\nAshley (31:35):\r\n\r\n\u201cWho are these kids?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis (31:37):\r\n\r\nWe're going to arrest them.\r\n\r\nAshley (31:37):\r\n\r\nI'm just shocked. You just don't expect it in eighth grade.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nI\u2019d be right with you.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (31:43):\r\n\r\nI just said, \u201cMan, thank you. Thank you for trusting us with this.\u201d And I said, \u201cFirst off, no, it's not good. In fact, it's illegal for underage people to be taking those pictures or receiving those pictures or anybody to receive pictures of an underage person. So first off, it's illegal.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (32:01):\r\n\r\nOh, that's good. I like that you said it's illegal because that puts fear into our children.\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nFor sure.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (32:04):\r\n\r\nIt's considered child pornography. And we talked about all that. I said, \u201cBut it's wrong.\u201d And we talked about why it's wrong and how it's disrespectful. It's violating all of those things, and we're able to unpack it. And he listened and he goes, \u201cYeah, that's what I was thinking. I thought it was pretty weird, but I was just making sure.\u201d And he just went on with his day like video games. But being able to, and then we're looking at each other like \u201cOh my gosh, what's happening?\u201d But not freaking out in front of your kids is huge.\r\n\r\nAnn (32:39):\r\n\r\nI like you putting your hand up. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nHe really was so good about it.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (32:44):\r\n\r\nThere's been a lot of these moments. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nActually, that is me.\r\n\r\nAshley (32:45):\r\n\r\nIt's that mama bear. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (32:46):\r\n\r\nYeah, she calms me down a lot. But with this kind of stuff, I'm usually the one like, \u201cWe'll freak out later. Now is not the time.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (32:53):\r\n\r\nYes. Our oldest son at one point was listening to this music. I am like\u2014you guys, I can get so hot\u2014\"What?!\u201d \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nIt's fun when she gets hot.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\n\u2014is this like music from Satan? You're not playing this music in my house.\u201d And Dave just kind of like\u2014then he pulls the CD out of the trash can. He's like, \u201cHey, so what are you\u2014tell me about this music.\u201d I just have to go in the other room and cool off a little bit.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (33:17):\r\n\r\nYeah, yeah.\r\n\r\nAshley (33:17):\r\n\r\nYes. I've been there many times. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (33:22):\r\n\r\nThat's right, yeah.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (33:22):\r\n\r\nBut obviously you've created a safe net where they feel like they can bring up that kind of stuff. A lot of homes would be like, \u201cNo way I could ever talk to mom and dad about this.\u201d So I mean, obviously it's in what you talked about with FamilyLife.com\/SexTalk. How do you have this talk with your kids? How did you develop an environment in your home where they felt safe to bring this kind of stuff up? Is this something you started talking about since they were little boys?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (33:49):\r\n\r\nWe did, and I think we realized early, this is something we cannot outsource.\r\n\r\n(33:56):\r\n\r\nBecause the world would love you to outsource these conversations and just send them to the internet or send them to somebody else or let the friends at school fill in the gaps and they're going to get so many wrong messages that way. I'm like, we signed up to be parents. This was one of those key responsibilities that we have to instill these core values about respect, about God's plan for sex. And it can be uncomfortable sometimes, man, these are some of the most important conversations we'll ever have. And if you're listening to this and you feel not equipped, you feel like, oh my goodness, because of my own past, or I don't want those things to come up or to answer hard questions. Your kids aren't expecting you to be perfect, but they need you to be present. They need you to be honest and to just guide them, guide them through this, with what you did right, with what you did wrong. There's so much at stake, and you've got this, you're the most qualified person on earth to have these conversations with your children.\r\n\r\nAshley (34:53):\r\n\r\nAnd in the resource How to Talk to Your Kids About Sex, we really talk through it. We have a parental video for parents only before they watch the video with their child. But then the most important part of all this is the conversation they will have after watching that video with their child.\r\n\r\nAnn (35:07):\r\n\r\nSo they're watching the video together.\r\n\r\nAshley (35:09):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\n(35:10):\r\n\r\nAnd that way the child can ask questions or not, or the parent can pose questions or say, \u201cHey, was something unclear? Do you want to ask me a question about this? Because I know sometimes this can be really nerve wracking. And I know when I was your age, this was an awkward conversation with my parents,\u201d or \u201cMy parents didn't know how to talk to me about this.\u201d And that was really my experience. I have wonderful parents, but they didn't know how to talk to me about this. And I really think it went back to their own past. They didn't know how to address that or how to share it with me, or if I would ask questions that they didn't know how to answer. And so I remember going into marriage, and we did get married young, so maybe my poor parents didn't have enough time to gather their thoughts, but it wasn't talked about really.\r\n\r\n(35:51):\r\n\r\nIt was just shut down. And I remember when we were, we had young children, we knew someday we'd have to have these talks with them. We wanted to do it differently and really get ahead of it because the truth is younger and younger kids are being exposed to mixed messages about sex. And I think a lot of parents, we want to live in denial and think, \u201cWell, not my baby.\u201d He or she's not going to be exposed at their school. It's a good school. And there's not going to be a kid with a cell phone showing them an image. And I just want to burst that bubble and say, tragically, it's everywhere. I mean, I've taught in a Christian school, and I've taught in a public school, and I can tell you kids are kids everywhere. And the only difference was in a Christian school I could actually talk to them and pray with them.\r\n\r\n(36:31):\r\n\r\nBut other than that, they're kids and kids are curious. And we want to get ahead of that curiosity and really talk to them about how sex is a powerful gift from God and how they have license over the bodies that God gave them. And so therefore, they have boundaries they need to put in place with people, and they need to respect other people's boundaries. And we just wanted to help parents with this resource to have these conversations and to not feel like they're their parents. And with that, God gave you that authority to be their teacher and to get equipped and be able to answer those hard questions.\r\n\r\nAnn (37:04):\r\n\r\nI love that you guys are doing the heavy lifting of it too, because they're watching it. You guys are saying a bunch of this great stuff and it's just, it's an on-ramp to a conversation.\r\n\r\nAshley (37:14):\r\n\r\nYes. It's an on ramp. Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn (37:15):\r\n\r\nAnd I think that's really needed for us. Like, oh, okay, they're going to talk about it and then I'm just going to, we're walk together through it. I think it's so needed. I love it. I love that you guys are doing this. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (37:27):\r\n\r\nThank you. We try to create what we wish we would've had.\r\n\r\nAnn (37:30):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (37:30):\r\n\r\nWe had some tools that helped. Some of those were from FamilyLife.\r\n\r\nAshley (37:35):\r\n\r\nWere from FamilyLife, for sure.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (37:36):\r\n\r\nAnd we're thankful for that. But it's like, what do we wish we would've had? And that's what we tried to create with the team here.\r\n\r\nAnn (37:44):\r\n\r\nAnd it's a different day.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (37:45):\r\n\r\nYeah, it's a different day. The challenges are different. The temptations are different. The questions are different. The core principles are always going to be the same about sex, but I'm really excited about this resource. I really do hope that it brings parents and kids closer together with each other, creates some bonding moments and also takes away some of the fear around these talks and equips the next generation with some tools that are going to help them walk the beautiful path God has for them.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (38:13):\r\n\r\nAnd I mean, obviously, it's one of the best ways you can respect each other. Your book is about boys respecting, men respecting their women.\r\n\r\n(38:23):\r\n\r\nOne of the most, I think, fascinating\u2014and you have a chapter on it\u2014studies I ever did way back was how Jesus was the model in that culture of elevating and respecting women. I remember when I was studying this and getting a grip on it as sort of a seminary student, there was a TV show\u2014you guys are too young to remember\u2014that was really popular called LA Law.\r\n\r\nAshley (38:46):\r\n\r\nOh, I know LA Law. Yes. I totally remember that.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (38:47):\r\n\r\nWe were into it. We were living in California at the time, so we thought we were LA people.\r\n\r\nAshley (38:52):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (38:52):\r\n\r\nBut there was an actress, I don't know what her name was; she was popular on the show, but there was a quote that came out around that time from her about Jesus. And again, I could look it up and tell you her name, but she said this, \u201cI'm not a Christian because of what Jesus did to women. I'm not going to follow a man that did what he did to women,\u201d and I wanted to call her to go, \u201cYou have no idea how he elevated women.\u201d \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nOh my gosh, more so than anybody in history.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nAnybody in that culture probably. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nSo explain that a little bit. Well, how did Jesus\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Willis (39:24):\r\n\r\nI'm so glad you brought that up, Dave. It's my favorite chapter in the book.\r\n\r\nAshley (39:28):\r\n\r\nMine too. I love it.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nIt is?\r\n\r\nDave Willis (39:29):\r\n\r\nIt is because Jesus is our role model for all things, but I don't think, we always think of Him as being the role model for how men should respect women. And He set the bar so high, the way He valued women, the way He made women the heroes in stories that He told.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (39:46):\r\n\r\nWhich was never\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Willis (39:48):\r\n\r\nThe way He honored them in His conversations, the way He sought them out and brought them into the ministry and allowed them to lead and serve and use their God-given gifts, and the way He took time to meet their needs, the way He allowed them to participate in meeting the needs of the ministry. There were women that were financial contributors as well, to helping the ministry go forward. And I mean, it was radically counter-cultural in that day, in that time, in that place, the way that Jesus elevated women that we might look at today and say, \u201cYeah, well, that's the way that it should be.\u201d But back then, nobody was doing this. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nNobody. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nI mean, He was revolutionary, of course, in so many ways but what we don't talk about enough is how revolutionary He was in elevating and respecting women. \r\n\r\nDave Wilson (40:38):\r\n\r\nSo as a boy, as a man, we have to follow Jesus, right? \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nAbsolutely. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nThat's the model.\r\n\r\nAnn (40:44):\r\n\r\nI mean, I think of John 4 of the woman at the well, the Samaritan woman, how many things that He did in that Jewish culture that would've never been done. One, that He would talk to a Samaritan woman as a rabbi. That He would touch something asking her for a drink, which means she would've touched it, which means He would've touched it, which you're not allowed to do that. I was on a flight to Israel with some Orthodox Jewish men, and they couldn't sit in the seat beside one of our women,\r\n\r\nAshley (41:15):\r\n\r\nReally?\r\n\r\nAnn (41:15):\r\n\r\nAnd so he had to get the flight attendant, they had to move. There were so many different things that they were obeying the custom of their faith. And I'm imagining Jesus having this conversation with this woman alone, even talking to her and initiating the conversation. It's like all the rules are broken, but He sees her. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (41:38):\r\n\r\nHe sees her, yeah.\r\n\r\nAnn (41:38):\r\n\r\nAnd in the midst of seeing her, respects her and gives her dignity. And talk about a woman that was walking with shame, and He elevates. It's phenomenal of how counter cultural He was and still is in so many ways. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nAnd still is.\r\n\r\nAshley (41:54):\r\n\r\nRight. I love that. It's one of my favorite stories.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nMe too.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (41:57):\r\n\r\nSo as we sort of bring this to a close is there like, if you think\u2014and I know it's now, it's 2025. We're six years removed from when this was published\u2014top three. If you can come up with three, maybe there's 10 ways for men to respect women, boys to respect girls. What are the top ones that come to your mind?\r\n\r\nAnn (42:19):\r\n\r\nWe should do two and two.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (42:21):\r\n\r\nTwo and two.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (42:22):\r\n\r\nTwo and two. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nAll right. Yeah.\r\n\r\nAnn (42:24):\r\n\r\nWe'll see if there's\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Willis (42:25):\r\n\r\nI'll try to give two that are just\u2014I don\u2019t know, a top two, but just two that are good. So I think one, one of the things in the research for this book that really stood out to me is how much more often women are interrupted than men, just in conversation. And I mean, I talk fast and just in general, I've tried to be less of an interrupter, but for men and women, I've been an interrupter and I'm sorry, probably even in this interview, forgive me.\r\n\r\nAshley (43:06):\r\n\r\nOf course. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nIt's funny. I've always\u2014is this what you're going to say?\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (43:08):\r\n\r\nI don't know what you're going to say. How would I know\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (43:10):\r\n\r\nI was going to say\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (43:10):\r\n\r\n\u2014what you're going to say?\r\n\r\nAnn (43:11):\r\n\r\nI notice that if\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (43:13):\r\n\r\nWhen you're on stage\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (43:14):\r\n\r\nOr even here, if you guys interrupt each other, you're like, \u201cOh, I'm really sorry.\u201d That has always stuck out to me. You've always done it. Both of you do that.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (43:21):\r\n\r\nI've noticed videos I've seen online where you're teaching at a marriage conference, you let Ashley talk and you don't interrupt. There are times I cut her off. She'll say something, I'm like\u2014 Dave is really respecting her. It's her moment. And you can tell by the way you're looking at her. You're like, \u201cThis is really good.\u201d\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nThis is good. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s just like she's talking\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Willis (43:43):\r\n\r\nI got a front row seat to some gold here.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (43:46):\r\n\r\nBut that's respect. It's modeled the way you treat one another.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (43:49):\r\n\r\nWell thank you. We try and try to teach that to our boys; that you don't interrupt, value what women have to say and give them the floor. And so that's one. What\u2019s one that you have.\r\n\r\nAshley (44:04):\r\n\r\nI know I keep coming back to it, but I would say the eyes. The eyes are so important, where your eyes go. I think a husband will build so much security and trust in his wife if he can just divert his eyes. I mean, again, you can notice something but diverting your eyes and you do that for me. We try to teach our boys to do the same thing. And I just know, and it doesn't go unseen. And I appreciate that. Whether it's a TV show, something\u2014on a lot of shows these days, it could be the number one show on Netflix. You start watching it and all of a sudden something crazy, a huge sex scene goes on. And we'll immediately fast forward or just turn it off. And that's also diverting your eyes. And I feel like, and this is in the open places, and even more so in the secret places, just not even letting the enemy get a foothold I think is so important. But a lot of it starts right there in the eyes. And then it's what you allow yourself to think about because that\u2019s how you lust.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s good. \r\n\r\nDave Wilson (44:56):\r\n\r\nDo you know the name Steve Ferrar? You know that name? \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nI don't think so. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nSteve was on our FamilyLife speaker, Weekend to Remember speaker team, so right when we joined. We're much younger than him. So he wrote a book called Point Man, and he had a military background, was a guy who leads a platoon into it\u2019s called point man. So he's like, you're the point man in your family. It's a great book about manhood. Just an amazing guy. And I'll never forget a story he tells in the book\u2014this is 30 some years ago\u2014where he just says they were sitting at a stoplight and he's with his teenage son and a girl walks across to go to the other side, and his son turns to his dad and goes, \u201cDad, you never look.\u201d He goes, \u201cWhat?\u201d He goes, \u201cI've watched you my whole life. Women walk by. That girl was very pretty. She wasn't dressed. You never look.\u201d And Steve says, \u201cI turned to him and said, \u2018Yeah, there's times I have.\u2019\u201d But his point is they're watching.\r\n\r\nAshley (45:51):\r\n\r\nThey are. \r\n\r\nDave Wilson (45:52):\r\n\r\nThey're watching every second. And what he was saying to you, his dad was, \u201cYou respect women and I'm watching and I'm learning how to be a man.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Willis (46:00):\r\n\r\nThat's the most powerful lesson more than anything we'll say, is just what we're doing as parents and as dads in this case. That's what they're watching so let's make sure we're respecting women.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (46:10):\r\n\r\nOur eyes, our words\u2014\r\n\r\nAshley (46:12):\r\n\r\nWords, yes.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (46:13):\r\n\r\n\u2014our body. I mean, porn is the ultimate disrespect of women. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nAbsolutely. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nIt's just like that is a signal to the world. They don't matter. They're just property. Right? I mean, yeah, it is something we have to model.\r\n\r\nAnn (46:28):\r\n\r\nAny other ones that come to your minds right off the top?\r\n\r\nAshley (46:30):\r\n\r\nWell, he mentioned words. I would say it's not just how you talk to your spouse, which is extremely important, not just for your spouse, but for your kids if you have children in the home, but also how you talk about women.\r\n\r\n(46:41):\r\n\r\nWe know people, and it shows in their marriage too, but they just have a derogatory view of women. And it probably goes back to how they were raised. And they don't even realize it. If you're a fish in water, you don't know what it's like to be out of the water until you are, and you're like, \u201cOh, there's another\u2014we can exist another way.\u201d And so I think it's just taking, really praying and saying, \u201cLord, reveal to me any blind spots I have and how I view women and help me to heal from that.\u201d Because I think that if you have this negative view of women, all women are X, Y, Z, or \u201cOh, I'm looking because she's putting it out there.\u201d I've heard that before.\r\n\r\n(47:16):\r\n\r\n\u201cWell, I'm looking only because she's showing her midriff, so she wants me to look.\u201d All these excuses, these lies we believe that we make excuses in our life, but we really, I think what it comes down to is just a really negative view of women. And I think taking those thoughts captive and really just thinking more positively, but also more respectfully about women, because then that's how you're going to speak about them. And really thinking about, how do I speak about women in my home? Is it always talking something negative about this woman at work, or the neighbor who's a woman or about your wife when your wife isn't around? I mean, really think about that because it not only has an effect on the people around you; it perpetuates your next thought. If you're always thinking negatively and always speaking negatively and disrespectfully, then that's all you're going to do.\r\n\r\nAnn (48:03):\r\n\r\nI would piggyback on that and say the words that Dave says about me in front of our boys, I think it's one of his greatest gifts. He's constantly complimenting me. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nThat's awesome.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (48:15):\r\n\r\nYou're easy to compliment.\r\n\r\nAnn (48:16):\r\n\r\nNo, you are so good at it. And I've watched our sons model that with their wives. I know that it's because you have always been my biggest cheerleader, like, \u201cOh, your mom's amazing. You should have seen your mom do that back in the day.\u201d And I'm like, \u201cMan, you are so nice to me.\u201d\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley (48:33):\r\n\r\nI love that.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn (48:33):\r\n\r\nAnd it's such a sweet gift, and it's such a great model for our kids to hear us complimenting our spouse.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (48:40):\r\n\r\nThat's so good.\r\n\r\nAnn (48:42):\r\n\r\nBoth ways.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (48:43):\r\n\r\nThe one, I'll footnote your footnote or whatever you just said.\r\n\r\nAnn (48:48):\r\n\r\nPiggyback.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (48:49):\r\n\r\nPiggyback. You're piggyback. One of the ways I think I disrespected Ann and men can do this, and it can go either way, is I would be harsh in my tone.\r\n\r\nAshley (49:01):\r\n\r\nOh, tone.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (49:02):\r\n\r\nEven sometimes it's saying the right thing, but it's sort of with a know-it-all attitude. It's a roll of the eyes like \u201cThat was stupid. You're stupid.\u201d And she would say, I remember one time she said, \u201cI am not stupid.\u201d I'm like, \u201cI didn't say you're stupid.\u201d \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nYeah. Your eye roll said. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nThat is so disrespect. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nAbsolutely. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nAnd I didn't realize I had it. You want to hear a funny story, which we put in our Vertical Marriage small group deal. But she tried to tell me that I was that way. \u201cYou're harsh at times.\u201d It was so a blind spot. I'd be like, \u201cI'm not harsh.\u201d And she's like Exhibit A, the way you said. And we're at her parents and with the kids when they were little. They all had boys. All her siblings had boys. We had 12 grandsons.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nNo granddaughters. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nAnd so they're all over the place. And I've got this little camcorder, back in the VCR days, I'm filming this thing. And later the parents came in, and everybody comes in. We're going to watch this video I made and at the end of the video, and everybody's watching this\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (50:02):\r\n\r\nWhen you were filming it?\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (50:03):\r\n\r\nYeah. And now we're watching it. I go up, you can see it on the camera. I go up to turn it off and I thought I turned it off, but I didn't so you see me do this. I come back and we get into it, and my harshness is right there.\r\n\r\nAshley (50:15):\r\n\r\nOh wow.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nIt's on the video.\r\n\r\nAnn (50:16):\r\n\r\nMy whole family is in the room, and my mom and dad are like, \u201cOh my\u201d\u2014 \r\n\r\nDave Wilson (50:21):\r\n\r\nHer brothers are like, \u201cDude.\u201d I'm running up there like stop right there. And I'm like, \u201cThere it is. Everything she's tried to tell me I was\u2014 \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nYou said he hadn\u2019t seen it.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s like a mirror. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nI saw it. I'm like, \u201cI'm an idiot. I am a jerk. I am a know-it-all punk.\u201d That's what I was.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (50:33):\r\n\r\nMost of us don't know. I mean, Ashley, you said to me before, sometimes you don't know. I'm not meaning\u2014 \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nHow you\u2019re coming off. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis: \r\n\r\n\u2014but your tone, not just to her, but just in general, I'll get going about something. And she was like, \u201cYou seem like so\u201d\u2014I'm like, \u201cI'm not angry. I'm just\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (50:53):\r\n\r\nPassionate. \r\n\r\nDave Willis (50:54):\r\n\r\nYes. She goes like, \u201cWell,\u201d she's very general, but she'll say, \u201cYou don't know how you're coming across. You're not seeing it.\u201d I am not seeing the VHS tape of myself or if I saw it, I\u2019d be like, \u201cI look like an idiot.\u201d And so you got to trust your spouse when they point out those blind spots.\r\n\r\nAnn (51:09):\r\n\r\nWell it's funny too because Dave, this was a battle for I remember four months trying to say \u201cIt's that. When you say that or you give me that look, it just shuts my spirit down,\u201d and he's like rolling his eyes again.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (51:21):\r\n\r\nWhich is disrespect.\r\n\r\nAnn (51:24):\r\n\r\nAnd I remember I couldn't figure out how to communicate it, but you know what I do remember doing is praying like, \u201cLord, he can't see it. If this isn't a deal, then I just need to stop being so sensitive. But Lord, if I could communicate it and you can help me to figure out how to communicate it, I think that would be really helpful.\u201d And so I'm watching him. I'm like, \u201cThis is God.\u201d \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nGod made a way.\r\n\r\nDave Willis (51:50):\r\n\r\nGod\u2019s like, \u201cI got this, Ann.\u201d\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nI got you, girl. VHS.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nVideo evidence, VHS for the win.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (51:57):\r\n\r\nI don't like that prayer. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nNo, I know. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nBut it definitely helped. Well, let me say this, just as we wrap up, go to Family\r\n\r\nlife.com\/SexTalk to get the video course from you guys. We're so glad you guys did that for FamilyLife.\r\n\r\nAnn (52:13):\r\n\r\nThis is a gift to FamilyLife.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (52:14):\r\n\r\nWhat a blessing that's going to be for people. It's really going to help and obviously share this podcast and this YouTube, whatever you watch. This is a great conversation for men and boys to understand how to respect women. And it's really both ways. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Willis:\r\n\r\nAbsolutely.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAshley:\r\n\r\nYes, it goes both ways, absolutely.\r\n\r\nAnn (52:29):\r\n\r\nAnd for women to listen to even know how to communicate. And maybe you listen to it as a woman and think, \u201cOh, we need to talk about this as a couple so that we can be on the same page with our kids, with our sons.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (52:39):\r\n\r\nI didn't mention we'll also have the book there. Well actually with the books at FamilyLifeToday.com, click on the show notes and get it. I mean, this thing, it's going to become a bestseller after this conversation. Again.\r\n\r\nAnn (52:53):\r\n\r\nHey, thanks for watching and if you liked this episode\u2014\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (52:56):\r\n\r\nYou better like it.\r\n\r\nAnn (52:57):\r\n\r\n\u2014just hit that like button.\r\n\r\nDave Wilson (52:58):\r\n\r\nAnd we'd like you to subscribe. So all you got to do is go down and hit the subscribe\u2014I can't say the word subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don't think I can say this word. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnn:\r\n\r\nLike and subscribe. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDave Wilson:\r\n\r\nLook at that. You say it so easy. Subscribe. There it goes.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?  \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife.com                                 \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\n","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/317288","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=317288"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/312569"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=317288"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=317288"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=317288"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=317288"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=317288"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=317288"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}