{"id":317220,"date":"2025-09-09T04:51:23","date_gmt":"2025-09-09T08:51:23","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/be-a-godly-woman-in-a-world-that-wants-you-to-be-a-boss-kristen-clark\/"},"modified":"2025-09-09T04:51:24","modified_gmt":"2025-09-09T08:51:24","slug":"be-a-godly-woman-in-a-world-that-wants-you-to-be-a-boss-kristen-clark","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/be-a-godly-woman-in-a-world-that-wants-you-to-be-a-boss-kristen-clark\/","title":{"rendered":"Be a Godly Woman in a World That Wants You to Be a Boss | Kristen Clark"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>What does it truly mean to be a woman in a world of conflicting messages? Join FamilyLife Today Podcast hosts Dave and Ann Wilson as they sit down with Kristen Clark, co-author of Made to Be She: Reclaiming God\u2019s Plan for Fearless Femininity, to tackle the cultural lies surrounding womanhood. We explore how both secular feminism and rigid Christian traditions can lead us away from God&#8217;s design.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>What does it truly mean to be a woman in a world of conflicting messages? Join FamilyLife Today Podcast hosts Dave and Ann Wilson as they sit down with Kristen Clark, co-author of Made to Be She: Reclaiming God\u2019s Plan for Fearless Femininity, to tackle the cultural lies surrounding womanhood.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":312569,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/31d5b9a1-e0f5-483a-8fb5-b3440148d416\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"01:29:36","filesize":"82.06M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2838,2831,2093],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[9445],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-317220","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-mothers","category-wives","category-women","cwp_profile-kristen-clark","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2025\/02\/image_bbee74.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/317220\/be-a-godly-woman-in-a-world-that-wants-you-to-be-a-boss-kristen-clark","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/317220\/be-a-godly-woman-in-a-world-that-wants-you-to-be-a-boss-kristen-clark","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"PXce3PJRBR\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/be-a-godly-woman-in-a-world-that-wants-you-to-be-a-boss-kristen-clark\/\">Be a Godly Woman in a World That Wants You to Be a Boss | Kristen Clark<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/be-a-godly-woman-in-a-world-that-wants-you-to-be-a-boss-kristen-clark\/embed\/#?secret=PXce3PJRBR\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Be a Godly Woman in a World That Wants You to Be a Boss | Kristen Clark&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"PXce3PJRBR\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["31d5b9a1-e0f5-483a-8fb5-b3440148d416"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/31d5b9a1-e0f5-483a-8fb5-b3440148d416\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["01:29:36"],"filesize":["82.06M"],"_thumbnail_id":["312569"],"show_notes":["\n<ul>\n<li>\n<p>Get your copy of \"<a href=\"https:\/\/girldefined.com\/the-books\/she\">Made To Be She: Reclaiming God's Plan for Fearless Femininity<\/a>\"<\/p>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-09-09.pdf"],"transcript_content":["\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nMade to Be She\r\n\r\nGuest: Kristen Clark\r\n\r\nRelease Date: September 9, 2025\r\n\r\nKristen (00:00:00):\r\n\r\nAs women\/men, we have so many giftings and talents. There are unique ways God will open doors for us to use them. There is this funnel for female success\u2014and it's not necessarily rooted in God's Word\u2014we encourage young women to just ask the question: \u201cWill this path I'm pursuing be hospitable toward the path of marriage and motherhood if God calls me down that one day?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:00:25):\r\n\r\nOkay, Kristen, here's my question to start us out: \u201cAre we, as women in our culture today, being lied to about what a woman is?\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (00:00:35):\r\n\r\nAbsolutely; we are. \r\n\r\nAnn: You would say, \u201cAbsolutely\u201d!\r\n\r\nKristen: Absolutely, we are being lied to without even realizing it. I think\u2014on both ends of the spectrum; it's not just worldly lies that are coming from unbiblical places\u2014but I think, in some ways, there have been conservative movements, saying: \u201cThis is what it means to be a woman\u2026\u201d \u201cThis is what godly womanhood is\u2026\u201d But some of those standards from Christian movements aren't even rooted in the Word; so we're actually being lied to from both ends of the spectrum:\r\n\r\nfrom the world's version of what it means to be a woman, totally rejecting God's Word; defining things on our own terms; doing things our way. \r\n\r\nin some ways, the church has gotten it wrong as well, saying, \u201cThis is what it means to be a woman\u2026\u201d; but again, it's not actually rooted in God's Word. \r\n\r\nIt's hard; it's hard to sort through the noise and to get back to God's Word, and say, \u201cWhat does the Bible actually say it means to be a woman?\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:28):\r\n\r\nWhat was that look you [Dave] just gave me?\r\n\r\nDave (00:01:29):\r\n\r\nThe look was: \u201cThat's a bold statement,\u201d\u2014which I love.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:34):\r\n\r\n\u2014on both ends; me too.\r\n\r\nDave (00:01:34):\r\n\r\nI love it; it's like you just said: the church\u2014I'm sitting here, as a pastor, \u201cHave I lied? Have I taught God's Word wrong in the world?\u201d I'm sitting here, thinking\u2014I'm watching two generations sitting in front of me of women\u2014because Ann and I grew up in the \u201860s and the \u201870s, when there was a feminist movement that you referenced in this great book, Made to Be She: Reclaiming God's Plan for Fearless Femininity.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:02:03):\r\n\r\nIt's a tongue twister! \r\n\r\nDave (00:02:06):\r\n\r\nFemininity.\r\n\r\nKristen: Femininity; I know! \r\n\r\nDave: It's like Fearless Femininity. I can't speak for you\u2014you were\u2014, I remember Helen Reddy.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:02:14):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nDave (00:02:14):\r\n\r\nThat was a big song in my generation: \u201cI am woman; hear me\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014roar.\u201d \r\n\r\nKristen: \u201cHere me roar; oh, yes.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: She's sort of grown up in that. You're now, a next generation, looking at it. What's the lie been? Talk about first of world, I guess.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:02:30):\r\n\r\nYeah, if you ask a woman today\/a young woman today\u2014\u201cWhat does it mean to be a feminist?\u201d\u2014you will get so many answers. In fact, I share a story in Made to Be She. I was volunteering at this home for younger women, who were getting help. There was this young 16-year-old girl; she just looked at me out of the blue, and said, \u201cAre you a feminist?\u201d I said, \u201cWell, what do you mean by feminist?\u201d And then, she said, \u201cWell, I just mean that I don't need a man; and I can do things my way. I'm strong.\u201d That opened the door for a very interesting conversation with this young woman. \r\n\r\nIt really got my wheels turning to realize that feminism isn't just this thing that happened\u2014there were the waves: the first wave, the second wave, the third wave of feminism\u2014we kind of think of it in historical terms. But it is really alive and well in the hearts of young women\u2014women who are much younger than me, in this generation, of women\u2014who are saying, \u201cYeah, I identify as a feminist.\u201d I think, for so many of them, what it means is that just like this young woman said: \u201cI don't need a man. I can do things my way. I'm strong; I'm independent; I'm capable.\u201d Some things I would say: \u201cYeah, we do need to have some of this independence\u2014this capability\u2014of course.\u201d \r\n\r\nBut when you get to the heart of what they're saying, it's really: \u201cI'm a woman on my own terms. I will define what it means to be a woman. I'm not looking to men in any way. I'm not looking to God's Word in any way. I'm a strong woman, because I can define this for myself,\u201d and \u201cBeing the same as a man\/being equal as a man, or even being more powerful\/stronger than a man, that's what makes me this liberated woman.\u201d \r\n\r\nTalking to this young woman, I realized like, \u201cWow, this is really alive and well.\u201d It got me thinking in my own heart: \u201cHow have I bought into some of these lies of the feminist movements that have happened?\u201d The feminist movements have left behind this ideology in our churches, in our society, in our culture of what it means to be a woman. It's not looking to God's Word in any way, shape, or form to define it. It's really looking within ourselves\u2014looking to other women\u2014to define what it means to be a woman. That was pretty eye-opening for me to hear that from her.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:04:32):\r\n\r\nWhat did you discover as you looked into your own life? What were some of the things that you carried that you weren't even aware of?\r\n\r\nKristen (00:04:38):\r\n\r\nOh, my goodness. I'm married; we've been married for now 14 years. One of the struggles that I saw\u2014as I was really digging into writing about these past movements\u2014we wanted our book to unpack: \u201cWhat were the movements?\u201d \u201cHow have they impacted our thinking today?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:04:53):\r\n\r\nYou and your sister, Bethany, wrote this book.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:04:55):\r\n\r\nYes; we wrote it together. It was probably one of the hardest books we've written. Like I said, early on, we wanted to get to God's Word; we didn't want to add to the noise; we didn't want to add our own convictions, our own things we were taught from the church; but \u201cReally, what does God's Word actually say?\u201d Yes, there's a lot of truth that we learned in the church; I'm not saying it's all lies. There were so many wonderful, amazing, biblically-grounded things; but there were things that we added on ourselves to what it means to be a woman that are not found in God's Word. \r\n\r\nFor me, some of the things that the feminist movements and the ideologies have impacted in my own life, as I did some heart examination, was I saw I do have this desire to be fiercely independent from my husband. When we see in God's Word, which we unpack\u2014I don\u2019t know if we'll get into the roles topic, and the husband and the wife distinctions between the man and the woman\u2014but I saw, in my own heart, this desire to want to push against my husband: to want to push against his leadership; to want to push against his opinions, his thoughts, his ideas; and do things my way.\r\n\r\nDave: My wife says\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:05:56):\r\n\r\nI have never done that in my life.\r\n\r\nKristen: Have you ever felt that?\r\n\r\nAnn: I don't even know what you're talking about right now. \r\n\r\nDave (00:06:02):\r\n\r\nWe\u2019re describing our marriage right there. There's some of that that I love about her\u2014the strength\u2014but you're right; there can be this real tension.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:06:10):\r\n\r\nAnd then, you think: \u201cDoes that independence just come from personality; or have we been shaped, and have we been hurt in a way that's made us become more independent because we couldn't depend on a man or a husband?\u201d There's so much even to that. \r\n\r\nKristen (00:06:26):\r\n\r\nI know there's so much in there. Something that I was wrestling with recently was the idea of\u2014and I've never struggled with this; it's so crazy\u2014my husband is the breadwinner in our family; he always has been. He's been an amazing provider. Recently, I have taken some steps back in some of my roles, ministry-wise, and so have taken also steps back in pay. For the first time, I was really wrestling with almost my identity, like, \u201cOh, I'm not really bringing in as much as I was, financially, into our family.\u201d Yes, he's the breadwinner\u2014I appreciate that; I'm grateful for his provision\u2014but it was almost this little lie that was creeping into my heart, like, \u201cWell, you're not as valuable as a woman. Look at you: you're not really contributing, financially.\u201d And then, almost this fear in my heart of like, \u201cOh, no; I'm not worth as much. I need to be doing more,\u201d\u2014even though I know God is calling me to be a full-time mom to three precious kids; we homeschool; life is very full on that front. It's what I've prayed for years, after a decade of infertility; I am so grateful. But that lie\u2014just like boom!\u2014hit me out of nowhere. I really had to fight against that.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:07:28):\r\n\r\nI remember being in a doctor's office\u2014and you write about this too\u2014I had to fill in my occupation when our kids were all little. We would speak periodically, but I was mainly a stay-at-home mom. I couldn't put that down! I was like, \u201cWhy can't I write that?\u201d I put \u201cSpeaker\u201d or something, because the world says that occupation isn't as worthy as some other field.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:07:54):\r\n\r\nAbsolutely. That was one of the huge pushes back when you were younger, right? You talk about the \u201860s, \u201870s, \u201880s\u2014that era of the feminist movement\u2014was really pushing this idea that what a woman does inside the home is basically worthless and has no value [compared to] what she does outside of the home. In the workplace, the feminist movement was really pushing for this idea of equality between men and women. It was equality on the fronts of financial equality, of role equality\u2014meaning the same\u2014unless women are making the same amount of money or more as men, unless they are doing the same jobs as men. \r\n\r\nIn fact, there was one quote we write in our book, where one feminist said that her goal was for 50 percent of the jobs to be\u2014or for 100 percent of the jobs to be 50 percent employed by women\u2014so women would come in and occupy 50 percent of the workforce; which means, \u201cWhat happens at home?\u201d Women are encouraged\u2014not only encouraged, but pushed\u2014we were fed this lie, for years, that says: \u201cWhat you do in the home doesn't matter. Anyone can do that\u2014anyone can watch your kids; anyone can cook a meal\u2014you need to get out there and make something happen. You need to be successful.\u201d There was a lot of pressure, in that era, for women just to get out of the home. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:09:07):\r\n\r\nYou just stepped on a whole bunch of toes. \r\n\r\nKristen: I know; I know. \r\n\r\nAnn: Women are like: \u201cWhat?! Wait, wait, wait, wait\u201d; because we should have equal pay, and we should be in the workforce. \u201cBut what's at risk?\u201d \u201cWhat's at stake?\u201d and \u201cWhy are we doing it?\u201d\u2014is that what you're saying?\r\n\r\nKristen (00:09:20):\r\n\r\nYes, I'm getting after this heart of the feminist movement\u2014devaluing the home to say what a woman does in the home has no value\u2014it has no worth, because there isn't a paycheck tied to it. Absolutely, women bring so much value in the workforce. I'm not here, saying, \u201cWomen shouldn't be in the workforce in any way, shape or form.\u201d In fact, I was in the workforce for many years\u2014not in this professional career capacity\u2014but working full-time ministry outside of the home. \r\n\r\nWhat it really comes down to is us, as women, recognizing: \u201cOkay, there are a lot of opinions; there's a lot of noise; there are intentional movements shaping my thoughts about these things. But what does God's Word say? What does He value? And does my heart align with his?\u201d That's going to look different\u2014for our hearts are aligning with God's Word, the truth that we're all pursuing; we should be pursuing\u2014but the way that plays out, in each of our seasons of life. Ann, you're in a season where you can do so much outside the home; you don't have kids at home\u2014I've got a one-year-old, a fifteen-year-old, eleven-year-old; they're needy; these kids need a lot of things\u2014so the way I prioritize might look different than the way you do.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:10:26):\r\n\r\nAnd that's the truth. There's not one minute now that I look back and regret that I was home. When I started having kids\u2014we had been married six years, so we waited a while\u2014and I had that same crisis. It's an identity crisis: \u201cWho am I apart from what I'm doing?\u201d It makes you dig down into your identity: \u201cWho am I, in Christ, apart from what I'm doing?\u201d Because that's what matters. You guys talk about that a lot. I was home and I could be, which was a gift too; because not everyone can, financially. \r\n\r\nKristen (00:11:04):\r\n\r\nYes, we have to acknowledge that.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:11:04):\r\n\r\nExactly. But man, those were precious years. It felt like a million years at the time.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:11:10):\r\n\r\nThe days are slow; the years go fast! \r\n\r\nAnn (00:11:13):\r\n\r\nBut it flew by, and I'm so glad I don't have any regrets that I was home.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:11:17):\r\n\r\nThere is this intentional\u2014we call it \u201cThe funnel for female success\u201d\u2014it's this funnel that young women, in particular, are kind of set on this track, without even realizing it today.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014for sure. \r\n\r\nKristen: It's this track of: you finish high school; you immediately go to college; you need some sort of really successful degree so that you can get your job; you get in debt; you start working, and you basically set yourself up to be so locked into your job, paying off your debt that one day if you get married\u2014which most women do still; most women still want to have kids\u2014they find so many young women find themselves in this place in their later 20s, 30s, where they're still paying off debt. They worked hard to earn their degree, understandably\u2014they're working\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: And now, they're trying to get a home. \r\n\r\nKristen: Now, there's this tension, where they have this\u2014they're married; they have their first baby\u2014they're going, \u201cI don't know what to do. I want to spend more time with my baby, but I can't because I need to work. I need to put to use this degree that I've earned,\u201d or \u201c\u2026this career path that I'm on. If I step out, I'm going to be way behind my goals,\u201d\u2014 all these things and this whole girl-boss mentality. I'm seeing this tension. I get emails from women, who are saying, \u201cI don't know what to do. I am 30; no one told me I was going to face this. No one told me this was going to be a tension point in my life. And now, my husband and I are trying to figure out how to make this work. I want to spend more time with my baby.\u201d Some say, \u201cI want to be home altogether; I don't know how to make this work.\u201d\r\n\r\nSomething we talk about is\u2014young women recognize that there is this funnel for female success, and it's not necessarily rooted in God's Word\u2014for you to just take a step back, and say: \u201cGod has gifted me in many ways. As women\/men, we have so many giftings and talents. There are unique ways God will open doors for us to use them.\u201d \r\n\r\nFor women, we encourage young women to just ask the question: \u201cWill this path I'm pursuing be hospitable toward the path of marriage and motherhood if God calls me down that one day?\u201d So just thinking ahead\u2014five years; ten years\u2014\u201cIf I go down this path, is there going to be this big tension point in my life\/this big conflict where, now, I'm choosing between one or the other?\u201d or \u201cIs it possible to pursue a path, when you're young, that sets you up for success? So when you're older, you can easily shift into one; shift out of the other as seasons ebb and flow.\u201d That's just a huge encouragement we give to young women: \u201cJust think ahead and plan ahead.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:13:36):\r\n\r\nWhen you guys have reached out, and you've helped them walk through that idea, have they been grateful? Has it helped any?\u2014you've talked to people who have actually taken your advice.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:13:45):\r\n\r\nYes, we have. There have been women we actually got an email from one woman\u2014we knew her from a friend\u2014and she said, \u201cI was working full-time; I had full-time childcare for my baby. I read some of your stuff; I heard an episode you had on your podcast. I went home to my husband, and said, \u2018My priorities have been all backwards,\u2019\u201d\u2014for our family. Everyone has\u2014they're going to have to figure out what works for them\u2014but she said, \u201cMy priorities have been all backwards. I know that God wants me to be home with my baby, raising my kids. I told my husband, right then, \u2018How can we make this work financially? What can we change? Let's make sacrifices.\u2019\u201d They completely revamped their entire way their family had been operating. They made sacrifices; chose to live on less so that she could be home with her baby, spending more time with her; and actually, able to raise her. \r\n\r\nI know that's not possible for every single family, but I think it is for more families than they realize. We just take a step back, and say, \u201cWhere have my priorities been? How can I value this role?\u201d Not view it as less than, not view the paycheck as the only thing that makes something successful; but recognize that God has made men and women differently. The way that we fulfill those roles, within the family, is a beautiful thing\/a complimentary thing; but it's going to be played out in different ways.\r\n\r\nDave (00:15:05):\r\n\r\nSo what do you say to the women\u2014again, I'm not in your world; you guys are\u2014I'm not talking to very many women. But at least, it seems like I hear some women say, \u201cI love working; I love what I'm doing. I'm a mom; I'm a wife; I have daycare,\u201d\u2014whatever. Again, I don't know\u2014there's all kinds of scenarios\u2014but they feel like they're thriving in that world. Is that a bad thing?\r\n\r\nKristen (00:15:32):\r\n\r\nLike I said before, God has gifted us in so many ways as women, I'm a Type A.\r\n\r\nAnn: I am too.\r\n\r\nKristen: I am a go-getter; I love a checklist and to-dos. I love having a full plate, full of great things, that I'm working at. But something that I've had to really evaluate in my own heart and ask the question: \u201cIs this the right season of life for me to pursue this certain thing outside the home, using giftings that God has given me? Is this the right season for that?\u201d\r\n\r\nFor women, it's not that you're saying\/we're telling women: \u201cYou need to give up all the things that\u2014the ways God has gifted you and the degrees you've pursued\u2014but you might consider putting those a little bit on the back burner for a time. If you have young children in the home; and somebody else is spending eight, nine, ten hours a day, watching them\u2014and you're unable to be with them to disciple them, to nurture those relationships as their mom\u2014you might want to reconsider: \u2018Is this the season for me to be more at home? And then, when my kids are older, a season where I can go and pursue things outside the home in a more intentional way that I wasn't able to when they were younger?\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nIt's not: \u201cNo,\u201d\u2014forever your whole life\u2014it's just taking into account the various seasons and really asking the Lord: \u201cWhat would be faithful in this season?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:16:42):\r\n\r\nIt's a moment of surrender to Jesus. I can remember\u2014and I love ministry\u2014just as you said, Dave, I love impacting people with the gospel; I love working with women. I think our kids were six, nine, and eleven; I decided, \u201cI'm going to start the women's ministry at our church.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (00:17:04):\r\n\r\nOh, wow.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:17:05):\r\n\r\nAnd man, I was pumped about it: \u201cI'm going to do this.\u201d I did do it for, I think, two years. I stopped when they were at those ages, so I think Cody was probably four when I started. I'm so Type A that I can't let it go. When I'm home with the kids, I'm still thinking about it. I'm still on the phone; I'm still grinding on it. I was exhausted; I was so tired when I got home, I had nothing left. I remember praying about it, and saying that question, \u201cLord, is this the season? Should I be doing this now? Or should I wait?\u201d\u2014and being really open to what that means, even financially. \r\n\r\nI decided to wait. I'll never forget\u2014I had stopped; I was putting our, then, six-year-old, to bed\u2014he says, \u201cMom, you've been home every day; and you've been playing basketball with me every day.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen: Oh, my goodness. \r\n\r\nAnn: I said, \u201cYeah, what do you think about that?\u201d He hugged me; he goes, \u201cThat's the best present you could have ever given me.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen: Oh, my goodness. That makes me want to cry. \r\n\r\nAnn: I know. I look at that, and I think, \u201cI'm developing these little warriors for Jesus.\u201d And I was done\u2014they were out of the house when I was in my 40s still\u2014I've gotten to do all of those things that I had wanted to do. \r\n\r\nKristen (00:18:26):\r\n\r\nOh, that's so precious. \r\n\r\nAnn: What are you thinking? \r\n\r\nKristen: You've got a little smile.\r\n\r\nDave (00:18:30):\r\n\r\nI remember those days. It was interesting\u2014because when she took over the women's ministry, it thrived\u2014I remember watching her, going, \u201cShe's a better leader than I am. This ministry is blowing up in our church.\u201d There were tens of thousands of people; it was like, \u201cWow!\u201d In one point, I'm like, \u201cWow, you're really good; go!\u201d Back then, I'm not kidding, we had a phone with a cord.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:18:56):\r\n\r\nI remember those; I'm old enough to remember those.\r\n\r\nDave (00:19:00):\r\n\r\nI remember the image in my mind of that season: Ann on a phone around the kitchen\u2014with a kid in her lap, making dinner\u2014talking strategy with all these women. Meetings in our home. It was thriving; but it was like, \u201cWow, she really is singular-focused. It was like, \u201cHey, I'm multitasking; I've got three things going on.\u201d \r\n\r\nKristen (00:19:26):\r\n\r\n\u2014the hundred things; she's spinning all the plates.\r\n\r\nDave (00:19:28):\r\n\r\nLooking back, I do remember Cody saying that. It was like she just\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:19:32):\r\n\r\nI did cry.\r\n\r\nDave (00:19:34):\r\n\r\nIt was a hard decision; but it was the right one. \r\n\r\nKristen (00:19:36):\r\n\r\n\u2014for sure. And it's not that\u2014it's two really good things\u2014I think that's the tension for us, as women; sometimes we're like, \u201cOh, this is a really good thing,\u201d\u2014this ministry, this job\u2014\"I'm helping people; I am blessing people; I'm serving people; I'm making people's lives better. But what's the trade off?\u201d That's what we have to ask: \u201cIs this really a good thing?\u201d And then, this calling to be a wife and a mom, and do that in an intentional way to disciple and nurture those relationships. \r\n\r\nYou can't have it all at the same time. That is another big lie of the feminist movements: this idea that women can have it all. We should somehow be able to do everything in the home and everything in the workplace\u2014and manage all of it\u2014and have the same type of work as a man outside the home; but then, somehow, manage all of the chores, the dishes, the laundry, the cooking, the schedules\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014getting your Bible in, working out.\r\n\r\nKirsten (00:20:27):\r\n\r\nYeah, exactly! Not to mention working out and getting your Bible in, these things that we value; and then other relationships\/ Church women are trying to invest in all these things. We are told: \u201cYes, you can have it all,\u201d and \u201cYou should have it all.\u201d But as you see the lives of women\u2014in fact, there was a study done not too long ago; I can't remember the name of it\u2014we talk about it in Made to Be She; but they basically said, \u201cDespite 40 years of feminism\u201d\u2014fighting for women's rights, fighting for women to be equal with men in every single way; and not in the sense of identity, but in the sense of equal jobs and equal time spent in the workforce, those sort of things\u2014they said, \u201cDespite 40 years of this, women are less happy now than they were before the feminist movement began.\u201d They surveyed a bunch of women, so something isn't adding up. \r\n\r\nWe're told we can have it all; we're told we should have it all; we're told happiness is found outside of the home\u2014and everything we do outside is going to be more valuable than inside\u2014but somehow, we're still trying to manage both. Women are burning out; they are exhausted. I've even seen this, especially right now, there's this big movement amongst my generation\u2014millennials\u2014of women having side hustles. I'm all for side hustles. I think it's amazing that women are using their unique giftings to creatively work from their home and have small businesses and bring in extra income. But there's this pressure that I'm seeing on stay-at-home moms right now having to have a side hustle. Unless you have your side hustle going, and you've got your influencer account on Instagram, and you're making the money, then you're not enough. Even being a stay-at-home mom isn't enough unless you have your side hustle. \r\n\r\nI see these women working, working, hustling, hustling, trying to make this thing happen; and they're also burning out. But on paper, they're like, \u201cWell, I'm a stay-at-home mom\u201d; but you're not actually. It's not just about staying home. And that's what we say: \u201cIt's not just that you're physically home\u2014it's that you're there emotionally, mentally, spiritually\u2014that you're able to give to your family the things that your family needs in that season of life.\u201d And yes, there are things, other things you can do; but again, it's that balance: \u201cHow much can I take on over here?\u201d\u2014because something else is going to have to give. I think as women, we think we can do it all, but it's not working.\r\n\r\nAnn: Something's slipping\r\n\r\nKristen: Something's giving\u2014and it's the family\u2014I've seen that in my own life. In fact, my sister and I just recently, very honestly, after we wrote Made to Be She\u2014which, you know, writing a book is a very intense process; it takes a lot of time\u2014and then, you think it's amazing. And then, your editor sent it back with chapters ripped out and pages marked with \u201cX\u201ds; and you're like, \u201cNo! Back to the drawing board.\u201d It's like a knife in the heart, right? It's exhausting! \r\n\r\nShe and I were just talking: \u201cI wonder if now, that each of us are in seasons of having young kids in the home,\u201d\u2014we weren't when we started Girl Defined, neither of us. She wasn't married, and I didn't have kids. For ten years I didn't have kids, just with my infertility struggles. I was able to really pour into women and ministry and do so much outside of the home\u2014just my husband and I\u2014I can cook him dinner; I can be there for him; it doesn't take that much time. But then, when kids came on the scene for each of us, we really have had to reevaluate how we do things, how we prioritize things. Even in ministry, like you\u2019re saying, Ann, I think that I can't run at the same level as I was before and still be there for my family in the way that I feel God is calling me to right now. Even she and I have pulled back a lot in our ministry work\u2014outside ministry work\u2014the home is ministry as well, so that we can be more invested in\/more available for our kids. \r\n\r\nYou mentioned the basketball. My sons are 15 and 11\u2014same thing\u2014when I just go and spend time with them, shooting. And it's always the sports, right? \u201cMom, come jump on the trampoline,\u201d \u201cMom, come play basketball,\u201d \u201cMom\u2026.\u201d I'm like, \u201cI'm tired,\u201d\u2014but I want to work out\u2014so I guess this is a good thing. But when you say, \u201cYes,\u201d to those little ones, looking up at you, wanting to spend time with you, there is no greater gift in this world that you give them than that moment of saying, \u201cYes,\u201d and spending that time. It's precious, and you can't get it back.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:24:34):\r\n\r\nI love, as you went through and you looked at the six biggest ways the feminist movement sought to redefine womanhood\u2014and the titles were\u2014let's hit a couple of those; should we? \u201cGoodbye We; Hello Me.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (00:24:49):\r\n\r\nOkay, so this was the first wave feminism. This is interesting: this was one of the first\/the first moves that feminism made back in the early 1900s. You wouldn't, looking back on this, you wouldn't even really think this was something that was influencing women to think differently. But there really was this movement of women pushing for independence in a way that was separating the husband and the wife within the family\u2014it wasn't so much the we, as in the family\u2014we are united in our decision-making; we're united in even how we vote, women's suffrage. \r\n\r\nThere has been some interesting historical work done by some different Christian women, who have uncovered that. I know this is big red-hot button, so I don't mean to stir up anything here.\r\n\r\nDave (00:25:39):\r\n\r\nOh, let\u2019s stir it up; let's go! \r\n\r\nKristen: Alright; let\u2019s stir it up.\r\n\r\nEven in women's suffrage, a lot of the mentality behind the women, who were pushing for the vote\u2014at face value, I'm like, \u201cAbsolutely. Women voting: yes, I'm all for it.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: I would've fought for that too. \r\n\r\nKristen: \u201cThat's a good thing, right?\u201d\u2014but there's some controversy there that I didn't even know was there. It's that there were feminist movements, behind the scenes, pushing for this idea of the family not being a united unit, like where the family votes as a unit and the husband is the representative head of the family, but rather that women and men needed to each have their individualism, their autonomy that the family unit would not be viewed as one unit, but rather separate individuals. Now, the husband and the wife would vote separately. \r\n\r\nI know that sounds like: \u201cBut that could be a good thing.\u201d But it's interesting: it went from this\u2014\u201cWe, as a family, are voting in this way,\u201d\u2014to: \u201cThe husband's voting this way; the wife is voting this way.\u201d It became much more, like I said, autonomous, individual, separated. It really was a battle for going from the \u201cwe\u201d to the \u201cme\u201d society that was much more individualistic; that's the word that we use in there. So there was some controversy; there were Christian women, at the time, who were not on board\u2014not because they didn't want to vote\u2014but because they didn't like the shift in society, going from the family unit, \u201cwe,\u201d to this individualistic idea of separation of the husband and wife, being separate. That was just kind of interesting. \r\n\r\nWe say\/we're like, \u201cWe're not trying to enter this debate necessarily; we're just saying, \u2018Look at these small shifts that happened, where it wasn't just one thing all the way to where we are today in our society now\u2014where men can be women; women can be men; there's really no roles at all in marriage\u2014sexuality\/everything's been redefined\/rewritten.\u2019\u201d You go back in time; you say, \u201cWell, look at these families, back then\u201d\u2014they were so traditional, and they seem so much more grounded in the Word\u2014\"but just one step at a time\u2014one slippery slope at a time; one separation of the family unit\u2014laid the next domino, if you will; the dominoes were falling. This was one of the things that kind of kicked off this idea of men and women in their marriage, viewing themselves more as separate individuals, rather than a united front.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: I have never even thought of that. \r\n\r\nKristen (00:27:53):\r\n\r\nI know. \r\n\r\nAnn: Have you?\r\n\r\nKristen (00:27:54):\r\n\r\nNo. It wasn't until we started researching.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:27:56):\r\n\r\nYou can see how women, who have a good God-loving marriage, where he's leading by serving\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (00:28:05):\r\n\r\n\u2014like our perfect marriage.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:28:07):\r\n\r\nDave would represent us. You can see that. \r\n\r\nKristen: Right. And you would say, \u201cHe would do that well. I would trust Dave.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes. But there are probably a lot of marriages of a very domineering,\u2014\r\n\r\nKristen: Exactly.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014ungodly\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (00:28:17):\r\n\r\nI'm also guessing when I hear this\u2014and again, I don't want to get into the vote thing\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014because I\u2019m really glad women are voting.\r\n\r\nKristen: I am too.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:28:21):\r\n\r\nYou are too. \r\n\r\nDave (00:28:26):\r\n\r\nBut I'm guessing\u2014and maybe, I'm totally wrong\u2014most husbands and wives probably vote similar.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:28:33):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nDave (00:28:33):\r\n\r\nIn fact, let me ask, \u201cWhat's the percentage of husbands and wives who vote for the same candidate?\u201d See if it comes back with anything.\r\n\r\nKristen: We're doing a live search right now. \r\n\r\nAnn: That\u2019s right; we are.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:28:43):\r\n\r\nTechnology.\r\n\r\nDave (00:28:47):\r\n\r\n\u201cGender gap voting choices in presidential elections\u201d: oh, it doesn't give me anything.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:28:51):\r\n\r\nOh, come on!\r\n\r\nAnn: You guys should look up\u2014Jim and\u2014\r\n\r\nKristen: Give us the scoop. We want to know. \r\n\r\nBruce (00:28:58):\r\n\r\nWho are you asking?\u2014ChatGPT? \r\n\r\nDave: Yeah. \r\n\r\nAnn: Who would you guys ask? Yeah, go ahead.\r\n\r\nDave (00:29:02):\r\n\r\nI just asked Siri.\r\n\r\nAnn: Bruce\u2014\r\n\r\nKristen (00:29:03):\r\n\r\nOh, ChatGPT is the way you go.\r\n\r\nBruce (00:29:05):\r\n\r\nYeah; now, you got to do AI. \r\n\r\nDave: I don't even think I have it on here. \r\n\r\nBruce: \u201cMarried couples often\u201d\u2014what's the question you\u2019re asking?\r\n\r\nKristen (00:29:12):\r\n\r\n\u201cDo married couples often vote for the same candidate?\u201d\u2014or \u201cHow often\u2026\u201d  \r\n\r\nBruce (00:29:16):\r\n\r\n\u201cHow often do married couples vote for the same candidate?\u201d\r\n\r\nChatGPT (00:29:21):\r\n\r\n\u201cStudies suggest that married couples tend to vote the same way, but it's not always the case. There can be differences depending on factors like age, education, and political views.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: See. \r\n\r\nDave (00:29:33):\r\n\r\nWell, that was really helpful. \r\n\r\nKristen: It\u2019s basically saying\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: I'm guessing, like you first said, \u201cI bet it's pretty similar.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: I bet it is too.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:29:39):\r\n\r\nYeah, I'd imagine. You guys\u2014just looking at your own\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce: Eighty percent.\r\n\r\nDave (00:29:43):\r\n\r\nEighty; that's what I would say.\r\n\r\nBruce (00:29:45):\r\n\r\nEighty percent. \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014that would vote the same. That would make sense.\r\n\r\nDave (00:29:46):\r\n\r\nI was going to say eight out of ten; that was going to be my number. \r\n\r\nBruce: You didn't say it though. \r\n\r\nDave: I didn't. I'm going to say it now though: \u201cI think it's about eight out of ten.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (00:29:54):\r\n\r\nNow, we have ChatGPT\u2019s facts. \r\n\r\nAnn: Okay, that's just giving everybody something to talk about. \r\n\r\nLet's move on to the next one: \u201cMove over, dude, I've got this.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (00:30:03):\r\n\r\nOkay; \u201cMove over, dude; got this,\u201d was this push for women, again, to be totally independent from their husbands. Traditionally, as we unpack later in the book, \u201cGod's Design for Men and Women,\u201d we see God very intentionally designed the husband. We see this in Genesis. We see this in the New Testament in Ephesians, where God lays out the husband, and the wife, and marriage. God designed for the husband to have a leadership role within the family, very intentionally. Now, God designed it to be a good role, a godly, loving servant leadership\u2014not this domineering, oppressive role\u2014where the husband is essentially laying down his life, his desires, his wants for the good of his family. \r\n\r\nThe feminist movement really viewed, in so many ways, the battle of the sexes. We hear that term\u2014viewed these roles as a very negative and oppressive thing\u2014that a man should have no leadership in any way over a woman. \u201cTo be equal, they must be the same in their roles within the home, within the church, within the workplace; that in every way, they must be exactly the same in order to be equal.\u201d There was this push for: \u201cMove over, dude,\u201d where the wives are saying, \u201cHey, I've got this; I don't need you anymore.\u201d \r\n\r\nWomen were being told: \u201cLook at you, you oppressed housewife. You've been living under this man's leadership. Get out! And then, you'll be happy.\u201d Again, it was always this pursuit of happiness that there is going to be some sort of fulfillment, some sort of happiness for you, as a woman, found on the other side of whatever they were pushing for in that moment, in that wave of feminism. For women, this was the era, where they were saying, \u201cGet out of your homes. Get out from under your husband's leadership; it's not working.\u201d \r\n\r\nNow, it's interesting: because there is some truth, right? If you are not a believer\u2014and you're not following the Lord; your husband's not following the Lord\u2014those roles in a Christian marriage, where you're following the Lord, are very challenging; there's a lot of sin. Without the Lord, I would say these things don't make sense; they, in many ways, feel impossible. It is only with the Lord\u2014and with the husband and the wife submitting to Him\/submitting to His design\u2014saying, \u201cGod, Your ways are better than our ways. Your desires for us and our family and these roles in marriage; this is Your good plan. Help us to lean into this. Help us to honor this, to trust You as we pursue this. Even though we don't really get it all the time, we know that You're a good Father; and You have good plans.\u201d As Christians, we can look and see that; and we can remind ourselves of those truths. \r\n\r\n(00:32:39) I can understand why there were women in the feminist movement, if you didn't have a loving husband. There are stories we talk about of women, who were abused by their husbands. If you're in a terrible marriage\u2014because your husband is a horrible, evil man, not loving you\u2014I can understand why this would be very appealing for you, as a woman, and why you would think men are the problem: \u201cI just need to get out from under them, and find my liberation and my independence; then, I'm going to be happy.\u201d \r\n\r\nWhat we really unpack in that chapter is that men aren't the ultimate problem. Sin is the ultimate problem. It's the sin in the man's heart. It's the sin in our hearts as women and us saying, \u201cTo heck with this; I'm going to do things my way.\u201d Again, we're not doing things God's way; we're not going to Him. We're doing things our way. And so until we, as men and women, recognize sin is the underlying issue\u2014that's the problem\u2014then no, we're never going to get to a better and happier place.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:33:30):\r\n\r\nWell, this reminds me of the story\u2014do you know what I'm thinking of when you hear that, Dave?\u2014\"Move over, dude; I've got this.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:33:37):\r\n\r\nI don't know; am I supposed to read your mind here?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:33:40):\r\n\r\nNo, I was thinking\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: I have no idea where you\u2019re going.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014that story would come to your mind too. We wrote about this; oh, it's so embarrassing. I don't know if you'll relate to this, Kristen. We were having friends come into town. Dave had booked a hotel, months and months prior to this.\r\n\r\nDave (00:33:58):\r\n\r\nIt's in her latest book.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:33:59):\r\n\r\nDave's on the phone with the hotel, making sure; because it's in a few days that they have the reservation, which was really smart of him to do, actually.\r\n\r\nDave (00:34:06):\r\n\r\nNo; they were at the hotel, and they said, \u201cThey don't have a reservation for us.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:10):\r\n\r\nI didn't know that!\r\n\r\nDave (00:34:11):\r\n\r\nThey called, and said, \u201cWe're standing here; there's no reservation. I'm like, \u201cYeah, there is.\u201d I got on the phone; and basically, the girl said, \u201cNo, you never booked it,\u201d\u2014which I did\u2014anyway, it wasn't booked.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:34:23):\r\n\r\nOh, no.\r\n\r\nDave (00:34:23):\r\n\r\nBut while I'm doing this\u2014literally, back on the corded phone, walking around the kitchen with this a 100-foot cord.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:34:29):\r\n\r\nYes, stretching around everything.\r\n\r\nDave (00:34:30):\r\n\r\nAnn is following me around: \u201cGive me the phone,\u201d \u201cGive me the phone,\u201d \u201cGive me the phone.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:33):\r\n\r\nI would say that: \u201cGive me the phone.\u201d \u201cGive it to me,\u201d\u2014whispering it.\r\n\r\nDave (00:34:34):\r\n\r\n\u201cIf you're not getting it done, I'll get it done.\u201d It was like,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cMove over, dude.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014\u201cMove over, dude.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:37):\r\n\r\n\u201cMove over, dude; I've got this.\u201d \r\n\r\nKristen: I relate to that.\r\n\r\nDave (00:34:39):\r\n\r\nI finally get so frustrated; I just throw the phone to the door: \u201cYou're not getting it.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:43):\r\n\r\nYou threw it on the ground.\r\n\r\nDave (00:34:45):\r\n\r\nAnd she picked it up, and she didn't get it either. Tell them what I said.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:50):\r\n\r\nHe threw the phone down, because I was like right on his shoulder: \u201cGive it to me,\u201d \u201cGive it to me.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:34:56): \r\n\r\nI just got exasperated.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:57):\r\n\r\n\u2014which he should have. It's embarrassing that I did this. I get on the phone\u2014and he throws the phone down on the ground\u2014and then, he says, \u201cWhy don't you just cut it off, Ann?\u201d Talk about\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (00:35:10):\r\n\r\nHe might have to edit that one out.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:35:12):\r\n\r\n\u2014emasculating him. I got on the phone, thinking, \u201cWell, okay, that was really bad; but I'll get the hotel room.\u201d I didn't\u2014the pride and the arrogance in that\u2014talk about repenting that night. Even if I did get the hotel room: \u201cWas it worth what I had just done today?\u201d \r\n\r\nKristen: No. \r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cMove over, dude; I've got this.\u201d What does it make him feel like?\u2014nothing.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (00:35:31):\r\n\r\nExactly, because that's what we're communicating: \u201cYou are incapable. Let me swoop in, as the superhero, and take this over so it can get done right.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: That's very much in our culture today.\r\n\r\nKristen: \u2014for sure.\r\n\r\nDave (00:35:45):\r\n\r\nWell, there's the other side of that though, like you're celebrating some of the power that women have, especially now that we've watched in sports. We watched a movie\u2014I don't know what it's called\u2014where women weren't allowed to swim in a pool. There's a story about this woman, who literally set records. I didn't even know this\u2014back in the \u201830s, they couldn't swim in a men's pool\u2014they didn't think they could swim or compete. And then, this one woman sets;and they're like, \u201cOh, they're gifted.\u201d There's women doing things, that you're like, \u201cThat's good. It's like you didn't think women could do it, and they're better than the men; so \u2018Move over, man; I got this.\u2019\u201d In some ways, there's always this line of truth: there's some good in that, but there's a lot of bad.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:36:26):\r\n\r\nWell, we're not saying women are incapable at all. Again, Ann and I are like, \u201cNo, we're very capable women.\u201d But something we say, again and again, in Girl Defined ministries and in Made to Be She is that God created men and women to be purposely different but equal in value. We are created to be equal in worth, but different in function.\r\n\r\nAnn: And both are really needed.\r\n\r\nKristen: \u2014100 percent, when we live out our God-defined roles with men, embracing godly masculinity, and women leaning into godly femininity. Just look at our bodies; we are so different\u2014not to mention our hormones, not to mention the way that women can give birth to children; have this natural inclination to nurture life\u2014there are very clear physical distinctions that we can see. Our society just erases those, and says, \u201cNo, those don't matter. There is nothing there to see. Men and women should do everything the same in every way, shape, or form. There are no distinctions.\u201d That has gone to the farthest end you can possibly take it, where men are saying: \u201cWell, I can be a woman if I just declare it.\u201d What does it mean to be a woman?\u2014our society can't define it anymore. So anybody who declares\u2014\"I'm a woman,\u201d\u2014can be a woman.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:37:37):\r\n\r\nWhat do you think the culture says?\u2014if they would say\u2014and you've heard this too\u2014if they say, \u201cWhat is a woman?\u201d What do you think they\u2019d say?\r\n\r\nKristen (00:37:45):\r\n\r\nI've seen what they say, and they don't say much. They basically say, \u201cWell, that's really hard to define.\u201d In fact, we looked up\u2014Cosmo magazine had some interviews they had done of women, asking the question: \u201cWhat does it mean to be a woman?\u201d\u2014there were six or eight different college-aged; and then, some young 20s\/30s working women. Their answers were so interesting. We write them\/we quote them in Made to Be She, because we just found it fascinating. \r\n\r\nEach one\/the essence of what they said\u2014they would start it off by saying: \u201cWell, to me, being a woman means that I'm\u2026\u201d\u2014and then, they would go to list maybe the attributes or character qualities of what they think it means to be a woman. For example, one of them said, \u201cTo me, being a woman means that I am strong, that I'm independent, that I know what I want; and that I go after it, that I don't give up.\u201d They\u2019re just kind of naming these characteristics. But at the end of the day, you're still left wondering, \u201cWell, what does it actually mean to be a woman?!\u201d \r\n\r\n(00:38:55) It's just interesting to see what society says\u2014because even a man could get on there; I don't know if they had any transgender men on in this article\u2014but a man could say, \u201cBeing a woman, to me, means that \u2018I am female, that I'm strong, that I'm independent.\u2019\u201d He could say all the same things; and the world would applaud him, and say, \u201cYay, you are a strong woman\u201d; but he's actually a man. It's very confusing.\r\n\r\nI think that's one of the enemy's great lies: if he can distort and confuse for all of us what it even means: the basics of what it means to be a man and a woman\u2014and the fact that there are even lines: male on the left; women on the right\u2014if he can blur those lines, and say, \u201cAnyone can cross over this line; it doesn't matter. You can go back and forth. It's whatever you believe it means for you.\u201d What have we ultimately lost? We have ultimately lost the picture that gender points back to\u2014which is the gospel: gender, as man and woman; we see this in Ephesians, that gender\/the marriage specifically is painting this incredible picture\u2014it's this visual representation of Christ and His church. Christ, as the groom, representing the male, pursuing His bride in this sacrificial, leadership-loving way; and then, the bride, who represents the woman, responding. She's responsive to His leadership\u2014she welcomes His leadership\u2014she wants it. Together\u2014the man and the woman living out those roles in marriage\u2014are pointing back to Christ and the church, pointing back to the gospel. \r\n\r\nIn our society, when we say: \u201cIt doesn't matter; anyone can be anything,\u201d I think our enemy is very crafty, because he is completely blurring that picture of the gospel. We're losing sight of what gender was, ultimately, meant to point back to. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:40:29):\r\n\r\nIf somebody asks you, as we're asking right now, \u201cWhat is it to be a biblical woman?\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (00:40:37):\r\n\r\nWell, we wrote a whole book, Made to Be She; it is hard to unpack it in one sentence. \r\n\r\nI would say a woman who knows that she is a child of God, first and foremost; a woman who knows she was created by her Creator. \r\n\r\nShe is made to be she\u2014not decided to be she, became a she\u2014she was made to be she. \r\n\r\nShe knows who her Creator is and that He has a good design for her, a good plan for her.\r\n\r\nShe knows she's a sinner in need of a Savior.\r\n\r\nShe's walking in the forgiveness and the redemption that her Savior provides for her.\r\n\r\nHer identity is not what her accomplishments are. It's not her season of life\u2014whether she's married, unmarried, single, divorced\u2014it's not her season of life. It's not her stage of life\u2014if she's working; she's inside the home; outside the home; in college; a high school girl; retired empty nester\u2014none of those things ultimately define her identity. She knows her identity is found\u2014and it's unchanging\u2014in being a daughter of God, the most high King, and that she is loved fully by Him, regardless of whether she's been abused; whether she's been greatly loved here on this earth, by a man, by a family. She is greatly loved by her Creator; she can firmly plant her identity in that. \r\n\r\nAnd then, from that place of knowing all of those beautiful truths\u2014about God's plan, and love, and redemptive story for her through the cross\u2014then she can step into: \u201cOkay, what does it look like to actually live this out, being a woman who's defined by these beautiful truths from God's Word?\u201d \r\n\r\nWe can see that in Proverbs 31, these beautiful characteristics of a woman who loves her family, who values her family, who respects her husband. You can see her priorities: She's a hardworking woman. She works hard for the good of her family\u2014not to get a great name for herself, not to look accomplished in the world's eyes, not just to make money\u2014she works hard for the good of her family. We see that in Proverbs 31. \r\n\r\nAnd then, we can jump over to Titus 2 and see this beautiful list of these character qualities\u2014these attributes, essentially\u2014that women are called to walk in. I recommend all women and men listening to go check out Titus 2. You can see what older women are called to teach younger women. The emphasis in this passage is so much centered on the home that women today struggle with valuing the home, finding worth in God's design for the family, and seeing that as a valuable pursuit and calling; and dare I even say \u201ccareer, to be a full-time homemaker.\r\n\r\n(00:43:20) We see, in Titus 2, this beautiful layout of a woman values her children, her husband; she's a keeper of the home. We see this call for older women to teach younger women to value these things, right there and then. I'm not even going to get into Genesis 1 and 2\u2014we can\u2014there's God's creation: how He created Adam first and then Eve second, and the roles that He gave Adam before Eve ever even entered the scene. We see beautiful distinctions between the man and the woman, and roles laid right out there in Genesis, which we fully unpack in Made to Be She. \r\n\r\nThat was a long answer; that was a short question.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:43:55):\r\n\r\nI'm so impressed with your answer. I'm also thinking, as a mom: \u201cIf you have a daughter, that's discipleship: teaching her those truths.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen: Absolutely. \r\n\r\nAnn: That's what every little girl needs to hear. I even say it to our grandkids\u2014all of them; all seven\u2014I'll say, \u201cI'm so glad that God made you to be a boy,\u201d or \u201c\u2026a girl.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (00:44:18):\r\n\r\nAnd that's so good that you're affirming that.\r\n\r\nAnn: I am looking at your title\u2014Made to Be She\u2014\"He made you\u201d; and then, I'll say, \u201cfor a reason. He purposely made you like that.\u201d \r\n\r\nWhat you just described, which was\u2014wasn't that well-done?\r\n\r\nDave (00:44:33):\r\n\r\nYeah, it was excellent. In my head, I'm hearing women push back when they\u2014\r\n\r\nKristen (00:44:41):\r\n\r\nYou're playing the devil's advocate over here.\r\n\r\nDave (00:44:43):\r\n\r\n\u2014when they push back against that. You've heard all\/you get emails on Girl Defined.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:44:49):\r\n\r\nAnd you talk about it in the book.\r\n\r\nDave (00:44:50):\r\n\r\nOr talking about this\u2014they're growing up in\u2014you start the book with this whole mindset of the world saying, \u201cThis, and this, and this\u201d; and they're thinking, \u201cBut that [the Bible] was written to women in the Bible times, who were [submissive]; they didn't have a voice. Of course, their role is in the home. It's a different world today\u2014so that's one option\u2014but isn't the only option.\u201d How do you speak? These aren't just women who aren't in the church; these are women in our churches, saying, \u201cI've grown up in a different day, and God's given me power. You're telling me to surrender that power to my man?\u201d Again, I'm playing devil's advocate.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:45:27):\r\n\r\nNo, those are good questions. I would say, \u201cNo, you're not surrendering your power to your man. He's a sinner, just like you are, surrendering to God, ultimately.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:45:36):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s what I would say too.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:45:36):\r\n\r\nYou are entrusting your design, as a woman\u2014you are acknowledging\u2014\"God, You are God; I am not. Your ways are better than my ways. What I can see is only a glimpse of Your ultimate plan. In fact, my life, as a Christian, isn't about my own glory and even my own happiness; but ultimately, about making Your name great. If Your path for me includes hardship\u2014even suffering, even letting go of some of my dreams\u2014to pursue what I know You're calling me to\u2014what is faithful in this season of my life\u2014then God, I'm willing to lay those dreams down at the altar, and say, \u2018Lord, I give these back as an offering and a gift to You. I trust You with Your plan. I know that You have my good in mind\u2014which doesn't mean easy, but means my good\u2014for making me more like Christ, for sanctifying me, for growing me.\u201d\r\n\r\n(00:46:30) Marriage will do that for you; having children will do that for you. We are, as Christians, we are called to lay down our life in so many ways, which just means we're sacrificing\/we're letting go. I love to use this visual of just open palms, facing upward: \u201cWomen, just say\u201d\u2014open your hands, and say\u2014\u201c\u2019Lord, what is Your will and plan for me? Your will be done, not mine,\u2019\u201d\u2014the words of Jesus right before He went to the cross. I think of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and her beautiful words back to the angel [announcing she would have a child], where she said, \u201cLet it be done to me according to Your will.\u201d \r\n\r\nI think we have lost that. The feminist movement has really pushed this mindset of pride and autonomy in a way that says: \u201cI don't need anyone. I don't even need God; I can figure this out for myself. I am all that I need.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Why do we say that?\r\n\r\nKristen (00:47:17):\r\n\r\nThat is not the Christian's way.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014it's from protection. I used to say those exact words. Why?\u2014it's to protect myself, because I don't want to depend on anybody else; because they'll let me down. If they let me down\u2014if they back up\u2014it's probably because I'm unworthy. It's a protective shell is what you're saying.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:47:37):\r\n\r\nWe have to acknowledge that. I think it's good to acknowledge: \u201cWhy am I responding in this way?\u201d\r\n\r\nOne of the questions we ask in Made to Be She: \u201cWhere has your view of womanhood come from? What has shaped it over the years?\u201d I can look back on my life. I can see some beautiful ways that my view of womanhood was shaped by my mom, who's a very godly woman\u2014so grateful for her and the influence in my life\u2014church-shaped in some wonderful, beautiful ways. And then, also, some other extracurricular\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014biblical ideas, that were not necessarily rooted in God's Word, that were\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: Let's go!\r\n\r\nKristen (00:48:13):\r\n\r\nOkay, let's hit some of those.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:48:15):\r\n\r\nBecause we\u2019ve gone through this side of the culture, the world. Now, let's hear this other side of\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014of the church.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014the hurts of the church.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:48:25):\r\n\r\nWe have the ditch of feminist womanhood; we unpacked. Now, we're going to unpack the ditch of Christian womanhood, essentially. One of the lies\u2014I'll just speak real personally\u2014growing up: conservative family; so grateful for my parents' discipleship in so many ways\u2014but there were some very strong Christian movements that were taking place during my teen years.\r\n\r\nDave (00:48:45):\r\n\r\nYou're not going to mention purity culture.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:48:47):\r\n\r\nPurity culture, as it's been coined\u2014I'm not all about that name\u2014I still believe, as the Bible teaches, that purity matters. I don't think it's a word we necessarily have to throw out because of how it's been used. We see it used in God's Word, so we can trust Him and His plan for purity as being a good thing. \r\n\r\nBut I think there were some messages in purity culture that\u2014I don't believe it was intentional\u2014but I believe the emphasis was really rebounding from the hippie culture: free love, sex all around. After the introduction of the birth control pill, specifically, abortion became legal. Women were really of this mindset: \u201cWell, now the playing field is equal, sexually, because I can do whatever I want. With abortion and birth control pill in my hip pocket, there are no repercussions anymore. I can have sex on demand like men can, and there are no more consequences.\u201d That was another movement of the feminist era, just kind of shaping women in these ways.\r\n\r\n(00:49:41) The purity movement, I think, was coming off of a lot of that\u2014rightfully so\u2014saying, \u201cWhoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Actually, no; purity matters. Saving sex for marriage is actually a biblical thing. We need to slow down, people. We need to think about this.\u201d I think what happened is it became so emphasized\u2014as these movements often do, as you respond to something\u2014you tend to go really strong in the other direction. The era that I grew up in very much was the purity rings; I think there can still be a place for those. \r\n\r\nI think what happened, with a lot of women\u2014and I even see in my own heart\u2014was this idea that to be a good godly Christian woman, I needed to have a certain set of standards that were\u2014yes, from God's Word\u2014but also a lot of extra details added on. For example, I did wear a purity ring when I was in high school; I had committed to saving sex for marriage. I was like, \u201cI want to go the extra mile. I'm not even going to kiss anyone until I get married,\u201d\u2014which I'm still very thankful for. I didn't kiss anyone until my husband on our wedding day\u2014I cherish that; it's beautiful\u2014but my heart wasn't always in a great place. \r\n\r\nAs a Christian woman, I remember in some ways even taking pride in my purity, and thinking, \u201cWow, I am\/what an example I am. Look at me living this pure life,\u201d\u2014while, at the same time, wrestling with inner struggles of lust and sexual thoughts, and not feeling like I could be honest about those, because I've got my purity ring; I'm supposed to be this pure example. There are young women\u2014\"I have younger sisters; they're looking up to me,\u201d\u2014so being honest about my struggles was very hard. That became true for so many women of the purity era of my generation, who had their purity rings. They looked the part on the outside\u2014and in many ways, they were walking this fine line of standards\u2014but inwardly, we're really struggling; and outwardly, we're even prideful in our purity. \r\n\r\nThat's not God's heart for women. His heart is not that we would become pharisaical, by doing the right things with a heart that is very self-focused. There's little of: \"God, would You be glorified? Help me to pursue You in this. Give me humility; give me grace. Lord, I need You.\u201d It was more of like: \u201cYou got to do this. Pull your boots up and make it happen,\u201d\u2014which is interesting\u2014I'm hearing a little bit of the feminist movement. It's like the feminists had this same idea of: \u201cGirl, you got to make it happen for yourself.\u201d In some ways, even in Christian culture, that mindset was happening, but from a spiritualized standpoint. We thought we are so godly; when really, we were just trying to make this godliness happen for ourselves, without relying on Christ. So that's one of the ditches that I know, I for sure, fell into; I know a lot of women did. \r\n\r\nLater on in life, the Lord graciously opened my eyes to see that there was a lot of repenting in my own heart. I have since talked very openly and honestly about purity. When we talk about it\u2014even in this book and at Girl Defined\u2014we say: \u201cIt is from a heart that longs to glorify God, and longs to walk in His way. It\u2019s not just an outward action to do the right thing, but coming from a heart that's seeking the Lord.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:52:46):\r\n\r\nDo you think that parents\u2014like your parents\u2014and Dave and I raised our kids under the purity culture; that was the time. Do you think there's any place for us, as parents, to apologize to our kids for maybe pushing that on them in a negative kind of way?\u2014because it was negative. There were some great things about it, as you said, but the focus became the wrong focus.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:53:11):\r\n\r\nI don't know if that was true for everybody. \r\n\r\nAnn: I'm sure it wasn't. \r\n\r\nKristen: I think each set of parents\u2014conversations I've had with my mom, specifically, I've expressed gratitude\u2014\"I am thankful for a lot of the ways that you raised us to give us a foundation of understanding these things\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014or even raising the bar.\r\n\r\nKristen: \u2014\"to say, \u2018No, there's a better way; God has a better plan.\u2019\u201d I think that we are each responsible for our own selves. I even told my mom this; I said, \u201cYou didn't necessarily push me toward pride. I did that in my own heart. I was the one who was like, \u2018Oh, I am pure. I am godly. Oh, I am a great example. Wow, look at all these young women, looking up to me. Oh, I'm such a great leader.\u2019 You didn't instill that in me; that was my own sinful flesh.\u201d I think we have to recognize, even as parents, who were asking that question.\r\n\r\n(00:54:04) We all have sin; it's not just one-sided. I would say having a conversation for any parents listening, thinking, \u201cI wonder how my kids are thinking about that,\u201d\u2014have a conversation\u2014just say, \u201cHey, we've been thinking about this a lot. We realize that, although purity is a good and biblical thing, that there may have been such an emphasis that you felt like that was your primary identity.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cHow did it affect you?\u201d \r\n\r\nKristen: Asking questions and just opening up the conversation; I think that could be very valuable. \r\n\r\nI know there are, sadly, a lot of movements even happening now\u2014deconstruction\u2014a lot of young people leaving the faith altogether. They just felt like things were shoved down their throat. They were forced to live a certain way, dress a certain way\u2014whatever it may be for them\u2014and so they're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. They're just cutting off their parents altogether. I think that's tragic. I think so many parents were well-intentioned. They were embracing\u2014they were also rebounding, coming off of that era of the \u201870s\/\u201980s \u2014and they wanted good for their children. I would just encourage children and parents: \u201cHave grace toward one another. Have an open conversation; and just recognize: \u2018In our hearts, we wanted to do the right thing. Sure, we may have gone off trail a little bit; but let's have a conversation about it.\u2019\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Yeah, that's good.\r\n\r\nDave (00:55:19):\r\n\r\nI wonder\u2014even thinking of this purity movement from a man's side and a woman's side; I don\u2019t how it hit us as men different than women\u2014but you look back now, and you think, \u201cIsn't it interesting that the focus was primarily, if not exclusively, on sex and kissing?\u201d\u2014and anything in that area. There was no thought of purity with your language, with your thoughts, with the way you treated people. This one area that we highlighted\u2014I don't know how it affected women\u2014but it affected us, as men, thinking, \u201cI can't even look at a woman. I can't appreciate anything about her.\u201d I'm supposed to basically walk around with a blinder.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:56:02):\r\n\r\n\u2014the blinders on.\r\n\r\nDave (00:56:04):\r\n\r\nAnd some of that's good; especially, if you're a married man: you don't look at women. But you know what I'm saying?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:56:10):\r\n\r\nI haven't thought about that.\r\n\r\nDave (00:56:11):\r\n\r\nYeah, it's a different world.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:56:13):\r\n\r\nWe've actually talked to some men, who have felt that way\u2014who felt like they, as men, in their\u2014we have to remember that sexuality\/our sexual design is God-given. When He made us to be she; made him to be he, that included our sexual design. That wasn't Hollywood's idea; that came from the Lord. It's a good and beautiful thing to have this sexual attraction, to have men and women in their masculine beauty and feminine beauty\u2014God's design\u2014it's beautiful. \r\n\r\nBut there were men we talked to, who said: \u201cThis idea of purity: \u2018Don't look at a woman,\u2019 \u2018Don't look at any woman, ever,\u2019 \u2018Don't lust; guard your eyes. You see something; bounce.\u2019\u201d It was so emphasized to the point that they didn't even know how to interact with women in a respectful, God-honoring way. They didn't even know how to do that; they were so fearful.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:57:03):\r\n\r\n\u2014almost paranoid.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:57:04):\r\n\r\nSo afraid; yes, of stumbling in some way that it crippled them to know how to have healthy God-honoring interactions. So I think it can go too far.\r\n\r\nDave (00:57:12):\r\n\r\nYeah, that's exactly what I was saying. I remember, when I Kissed Dating Goodbye came out, I had this reaction\u2014I didn't say it from the pulpit; I was pastoring then\u2014but I remember thinking it, with my boys. It's like I wanted to write a book called \u201cI Kissed Dating \u2018Hello.\u2019\u201d \r\n\r\nKristen (00:57:28):\r\n\r\nYou just wanted to write that and come out with it, right on the heels.\r\n\r\nDave (00:57:30):\r\n\r\nYeah; it wasn't that I think dating is biblical. I just thought, \u201cIf you never ever have dinner with a girl, as a young man, you don't know how to interact. You don't know how to have a conversation.\u201d It's like there's some good things that happen\u2014you can stay pure; you can have a great friendship\u2014and learn how to have conversations, and date, and how to treat a woman. If you've never done that, it's like, \u201cWow, you're putting a lot of stake on this; better be perfect.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (00:57:58):\r\n\r\nYou meet them, and they better be the one. And now, your first kiss is at the altar.\r\n\r\nDave (00:58:02):\r\n\r\nIt isn\u2019t \u201cI Kissed Dating \u2018Hello\u2019; but there is an aspect\u2014again, It was my perspective; and nobody was saying that\u2014it was like, \u201cOh, no; you're supposed to not date.\u201d What was the word they used? You didn't date; you\u2014\r\n\r\nKristen (00:58:16):\r\n\r\n\u2014courtship.\r\n\r\nDave: Courtship was the only way you could do it.\r\n\r\nKristen: My husband and I\u2014we would've said we were courting\u2014it's an old-fashioned word, which I think is kind of sweet. I think there's some good things. I think the idea of intentionally dating\u2014this is a whole other conversation\u2014but dating with purpose\/dating with intentionality really matters. As Christians, we should be intentional in everything we do, for God's glory; for the good of the other\/considering the other as we're dating. \r\n\r\n(00:58:44) But yes\u2014100 percent agree with you there, Dave\u2014in fact, our son\u2019s now\/we have a 15-year-old. He's not really talking about dating; but of course, crushes. He's very open; \u201cOh, Mom, I've got this new crush.\u201d I'm like, \u201cOkay, tell me about her.\u201d We'll have conversations, and I think it's sweet. But I am always looking for little angles to try to disciple his heart or steer his heart; I say, \u201cGod made attraction a beautiful thing. The fact that you're attracted to her is God's design. She's a beautiful woman; God made her beautiful. He made you handsome. Those are good things. But the timing isn't right now for you guys to do anything serious. What God's good plan for you, right now, would be that you just have a friendship, that you talk to her, that you just engage in conversation. You have fun in groups and learn how to be a good friend. That is where your focus should be now.\u201d He's like, \u201cOh, yeah. Well, I talked to her,\u201d\u2014he's so excited if he says one thing. I think that is what I think a lot of young people, in the purity era, missed: \u201cIt's okay to recognize, \u2018I'm attracted\u2019. It's okay to acknowledge, \u2018I have a sexual design.\u2019\u201d It's actually: \u201cWe need to disciple. If we're not as the church\u2014as Christian families\u2014discipling that, where are they going to get it from?\u201d\r\n\r\n(00:59:47) \u201cWhere's it going to come from?\u201d\u2014it's going to come from the world, and it's not going to be built on God's truth\/built on His Word. Even at a young age, my 11-year-old is, of course, copying big brother\u2014like, \u201cOh; well, I have a crush too.\u201d I'm like, \u201cWell, I think my first crush was at like nine; so yeah, I can relate.\u201d But just, even at a young age, shaping their hearts: calling out the good of that attraction; but then, reminding them: \u201cIt's not the right time. What can we do though?\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: That's good.\r\n\r\nKristen: \u2014\"we can be friends; we can interact.\u201d I think it starts at a young age.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:00:14):\r\n\r\nLet's hit some more ditches. \r\n\r\nKristen (01:00:16):\r\n\r\nOoh, let's hit them!\r\n\r\nAnn (01:00:17):\r\n\r\nWe hit the purity culture ditch of the other side. What else?\r\n\r\nKristen (01:00:21):\r\n\r\nOoh, okay\u2014purity culture; that was a big one\u2014the purity culture: saving sex for marriage. I think there was another ditch that I definitely fell into; it's the ditch of Christian conservative movements. I want to be careful how I say this\u2014but really elevating the role of being a wife and a mom so high\u2014that, for many Christian women, it became the only option\/the only calling that they could have. \r\n\r\nNow, I obviously firmly believe that motherhood and marriage is a beautiful role. \r\n\r\nAnn: We just talked about that.\r\n\r\nKristen: \u2014a beautiful calling. But what happens to the woman\u2014who is 30, single\u2014and isn't sure if she's ever going to get married? Where does her identity come from? Where's her purpose come from? That's what was happening in my generation. There were so many women who weren't getting married when they thought; and they were, suddenly, having this. \r\n\r\nAnn (01:01:16):\r\n\r\nThey're still there.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:01:17):\r\n\r\nAnd there are still many women in that place\u2014their 30s; their 40s\u2014and they're going, \u201cI'm about to not be able to have kids; I'm not even married. This is not at all what I thought how my life would turn out. But I was told that being a mom and a wife is the most amazing, beautiful calling that a woman could ever have. So if I'm not going to have that, am I less than? Am I not a complete woman? Am I not a whole woman?\u201d \r\n\r\nThat is something that I had to wrestle with on a very personal level\u2014not on the marriage front; I got married at 24\u2014I am from a big family, eight kids. I just thought, \u201cOh, my mom had multiple home births.\u201d We called her the birthing pro: \u201cThis lady can just make it happen,\u201d\u2014no epidurals; all natural\u2014she really was a professional birther. \r\n\r\n(01:01:58) I thought, \u201cI'm going to have it easy. I come from a big family; no problem.\u201d Year 1 and 2\u2014I have two miscarriages and no kids to show for it\u20143, 4, 5, 6; all the way up to 10 years of infertility. Another miscarriage around year 8; doctors couldn't figure out what the problem was; no answers. \r\n\r\nI'm sitting there: \u201cThis was my plan. I was going to get married,\u201d\u2014I married the man of my dreams\u2014\"We were going to have a family. I wanted to have a big family. And now, I've been married for a decade; and I don't have any kids. Who am I?\u201d This wasn't just at ten years; this was a wrestle I had throughout the entire process\u2014of going to God's Word, crying out\u2014holding this desire for motherhood, this good and beautiful gift we see in Scripture\u2014but holding it up, and saying, \u201cGod, is this not what You have for me? You call this a good thing. Why aren't You giving me this?\u201d Having to surrender that, and then, to say, \u201cWho am I, as a woman\/a married woman without kids? What is my identity?\u201d It was like an identity crisis for me.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:02:59):\r\n\r\nI bet.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:02:59):\r\n\r\nI had to go to God's Word. Those things that I shared earlier\u2014about: \u201cI am, first and foremost, a child of God. I am a sinner redeemed by the grace of my Savior. My calling in life is to glorify my Creator and reflect Him, whether I ever have kids or not.\u201d That calling is not going to change, even if I have kids; that's still my primary calling. I had to go through a lot of dark hard valleys of God working on my heart; changing my heart; uprooting that lie that motherhood was the only most beautiful calling that a woman could have. Really coming to a place of surrender; and then, learning to pour out: \u201cHow can I disciple young women? How can I pour into young women, who aren't my children; but they're women God has brought into my life? That became my focus. That's part of what started Girl Defined was this desire to pour into young women.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:03:50):\r\n\r\nWould Girl Defined even have begun, had you had kids right away?\r\n\r\nKristen (01:03:52):\r\n\r\nI don't think so. \r\n\r\nAnn: Interesting. \r\n\r\nKristen: I really don't think so; because we founded it right around the time I got married, probably shortly after. If I had had kids, I think that would've been my focus\u2014it's a wonderful, beautiful focus\u2014it would've taken up most of my time. I don't think Girl Defined would've happened. Hindsight, of course, I'm like, \u201cI see God's hand in this. I see His hand in Girl Defined.\u201d \r\n\r\nMy sister has her own journey; didn't get married until 30\u2014same thing\u2014wrestling with this identity crisis of: \u201cI've been told my whole life that marriage and motherhood are the most beautiful calling; but now, I'm not even married. I might never get married. Who am I?\u201d That is another ditch that I think women, when you elevate even a biblical thing\u2014even purity, even marriage, motherhood\u2014too high on an altar, to where it becomes an idol, that's where you're going wrong. You're taking a good gift, and you're turning it into the thing that you almost worship, the thing you have to have in order to be full, to be whole. That's what God\u2014He never intended for those things to be our all, to be our identity\u2014but if He calls you into a season of marriage or motherhood; and you enter that; then, you say, \u201cOkay, now I'm in this season. What does it look like to be faithful in this now?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (01:05:04):\r\n\r\nMan, I'm just thinking about that\u2014thinking, even after you do get married, it's easy to make your marriage an idol\u2014 \r\n\r\nKristen: Absolutely. \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014thinking my husband should make me happy. Even, when you do have kids\u2014those two things are two of my greatest temptations to become idols\u2014because you love your kids so much; you don't want them to experience pain. You can elevate them to the point that they'd come before God too. I remember saying to the Detroit Lions wives, whom I discipled for years: \u201cIf you had to give Jesus everything, and you're surrendering everything to Him\u2014there's nothing you're holding back\u2014what is the thing that's the last thing in your hands that you don't want to surrender to Him?\u201d They said, \u201cOur kids\/my kids.\u201d I said, \u201cWhy don't you want to surrender your kids?\u201d They said, \u201cBecause He might allow something bad to happen.\u201d I know; I felt that. Even then, what does that say about God? We don't know\u2014but it's true\u2014those things are really hard to surrender.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:06:05):\r\n\r\nWell, one thing that encouraged me so much in that was I had seen a quote from another author; she said, \u201cThe things that we long for most are the very things that God wants to use to draw us closer to Him.\u201d That is so true; is it not? In any season of life, that thing where you're like: \u201cIf I could just have this,\u201d\u2014that's the tension point; that is the place in your heart\u2014you can go immediately, and say, \u201cAm I seeking the Lord fully, or am I relying on getting this thing in order to make me happy\/to be my satisfaction?\u201d \r\n\r\nFor me, it was absolutely having kids for so many years. In fact, my sister, Bethany\u2014who's not with us here today, who wrote Made to Be She with me\u2014asked me a very pointed question; and I'm grateful for this. It's a question I think only a sister could ask a sister\u2014in the midst of my infertility, in the midst of my struggle\u2014very graciously. She and I had had so many conversations over the years about this\u2014and her wanting to get married and me wanting kids\u2014she just said, \u201cIf God never gives you kids, do you think He could be enough for you?\u201d It was like I gave her the very Christian answer; I just said, \u201cOf course, He's enough. Absolutely; He's my all in all.\u201d \r\n\r\nI went away; really, that question stuck with me. I was lying in bed that night, thinking, \u201cGod, if You never give me kids, are You enough?\u201d I had to get really honest with myself, 2 in the morning, laying there in the dark. My true answer was: \u201cHe wasn't enough for me,\u201d in that place that I was at. He wasn't; I really had fallen into the ditch of believing I had to have kids to be happy, to be a complete woman, to have a satisfied life. That, for me, was the turning point, where God really uprooted idolatry in my heart of a good thing\u2014but still idolatry\u2014and helped me see that, ultimately, He could be. He could be my all in all; He could be.\r\n\r\nDave (01:08:04):\r\n\r\nDo you feel like\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (01:08:05):\r\n\r\nThat is such a good question! I feel like every listener\u2014and we should even talk about that\u2014\"What is the one thing that you think: \u2018If I could just have this\u2026\u2019?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:08:13):\r\n\r\nWell, here's what I was thinking when you said that: \u201cI think it's going to be different for men and women.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:08:18):\r\n\r\nTotally; of course.\r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, what\u2019s yours?!\r\n\r\nDave (01:08:21):\r\n\r\nIt's different for every man. \r\n\r\nAnn: I want to know what yours is; I already know it.\r\n\r\nDave (01:08:24):\r\n\r\nI think a lot of men would say, \u201cSuccess: career success, money success, reputation success,\u201d\u2014whatever. It's like: \u201cI'm driving toward this. If I never get it,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (01:08:31):\r\n\r\n\u2014financial success.\r\n\r\nDave (01:08:33):\r\n\r\n\u2014\u201cis He enough?\u201d \r\n\r\nI wonder if a lot of women would say, \u201cRelationship,\u201d\u2014whether it's your kids or your\u2014I think we've talked about this many times: \u201cIf your marriage is never going to be satisfying for you, as a woman, is Jesus enough?\u201d You're lying there at 2:00 am\u2014and it isn't the kids: \u201cI love my kids; they're great\u201d; \"I don't like this man; I thought I would. He doesn't love me like I thought I would be loved, and I'm never really going to get loved. I don't think this man is going to do it.\u201d\r\n\r\n Kristen (01:09:01):\r\n\r\n\u201cIs Jesus enough?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:09:02):\r\n\r\n\u201cAm I going to be okay?\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:09:03):\r\n\r\nIt's hard; it's a heart question that pierces the depths of our souls. \r\n\r\nAnn (01:09:08):\r\n\r\nYou know what mine is? It's such a great question; it's very convicting. I'm rolling it around in my head right now. Mine would be: \u201cMy greatest desire now is that my kids and my grandkids would all walk with Jesus and love Him with their whole hearts,\u201d which is this great; it's a great\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: That's good aspiration. \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014aspiration or prayer; it's really a prayer. But what I can do, as a mom\u2014and when the kids were in the house, I can become controlling: making them be spiritual, or making them memorize their verses, or pushing it so much then, when they became adults\u2014it's that desire to continue to control that area, which I have no power in that. It's this really good dream of what I'd like\u2014and it's a prayer that I pray continually\u2014but it can also become an idol that I can become controlling instead of surrendering to the Father.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:10:07):\r\n\r\nI love how you mentioned prayer, because I think that is the antidote\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:10:09):\r\n\r\n\u2014when we are in that place at 2:00 am. We're wrestling; we're struggling with this thing that isn't happening. We fill in the blank for whoever's listening\u2014\u201cThis is the thing I must have in order to be happy\u2026\u201d\u2014we can take that, and say:\r\n\r\n\u201cLord, You are a good Father. You are good, and You do good, as the Psalms say. \u2018Do I actually believe that about You?\u2019 And if I do, then I can trust You; because a good father is trustworthy. I can trust Your timing for my life; I can trust Your plan for my life. I can trust that You are withholding this thing for a greater reason that I can't see, but I know You're going to work through it if I seek You and pursue You. \r\n\r\nUltimately, Lord, I know that without this, You are enough; You can be enough. Lord, help me to pursue You in a way that is more wholehearted. Help me to lay down this desire in this unhelpful, this unholy way,\u201d \u2014really, if it's idolatry, it is an unholy desire\u2014\"Lord, help me to surrender that.\u201d \r\n\r\n(01:11:11) It's taking it to the Lord in prayer again, and again, and again. It's not a one and done\u2014I wish it was!\u2014but it is again, and again, and again. Slowly, but surely, as we place our trust in Him\u2014that good, good Father\u2014He does a work in our hearts. When we seek Him in that way, He wants to meet us there. He met me there. I am telling you: I would've never said, when I got married, \u201cIf I never had kids, I could be happy,\u201d\u2014I would've said, \u201cNo way; there is no way that I could ever be happy and not have kids,\u201d\u2014God brought me to a place, before we adopted our boys and had our baby girl\u2014well, I still had no idea\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (01:11:44):\r\n\r\nWait; go back. Our listeners don't know you had a baby girl.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:11:46):\r\n\r\nWe did. We adopted two boys right after ten years of marriage. We had been saving money for a big ten-year anniversary trip. God totally redirected our paths and gave us this huge heart for adoption from International Adoption\u2014two older kids\/two older boys, who were siblings. We used all of the money for our ten-year anniversary toward our adoption. \r\n\r\nAnn: They were siblings. I didn\u2019t know they\u2019re siblings.\r\n\r\nKristen: They\u2019re siblings, yes; brothers. God gave me that prayer\u2014that dream, that cry of my heart for so many years\u2014He has now filled my house with children: two amazing boys. And then, yes, got pregnant with our baby girl two years later. So now, we've got a 15-year-old, 11-year-old, and a 1-year-old. I love it; I love it so much.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:12:28):\r\n\r\nWait; I just have to know this personally: tell me about when you realized you were pregnant.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:12:34):\r\n\r\nOkay; so full disclosure\u2014we were pursuing some fertility treatments\u2014it wasn't just completely out of the blue. I'm in my late 30s. We thought we would love to have more kids. The sweetest thing ever\u2014our two adopted sons kept asking me when I was going to have a baby\u2014now, they're adopted from Ukraine. They could only speak Russian when they moved in with us, and we couldn't speak Russian. We were using Google Translate, back and forth. About six months in, they could speak some English; they said, \u201cMama, when are you going to have a baby?\u201d All my sisters are having babies, all of our friends; and so they're like, \u201cWhen are you?\u201d It's like, \u201cHow do I answer this? They don't really understand; they don't know our story yet.\u201d I just said, \u201cIf God wants to give us a baby, He can.\u201d I said, \u201cYou can pray for that if you want.\u201d They said, \u201cOkay.\u201d They prayed every night before bed that God would give me a baby\/that He would give our family a baby. I'm in tears, every night, praying; I'm like, \u201cLord, this is too much. I thought I was done with this; I was surrendered.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: And now, you don't want them to be disappointed. \r\n\r\nKristen: I even said to my husband; [and I prayed], \u201cLord, if not for me, for them; give us a baby for them.\u201d They would pray every night. That was probably part of what influenced us. We were like: \u201cI'm getting older; let's just try. We'll try some fertility treatments. If they work, hallelujah, praise the Lord. If not, this is our family. We're so thankful and grateful.\u201d \r\n\r\nSure enough, God allowed them to work; I got pregnant with our baby girl. We told them at Christmas time; I was just about 12 weeks. They opened a little onesie that said, \u201cComing soon.\u201d They both just fell over with joy, laying on the floor, laughing: \u201cThis is the best\u201d; they were so excited. And now, they just adore her. They just carry her around and play with her, love her so much.\r\n\r\nAnn: After how many years? \r\n\r\nKristen: It was ten years before we adopted our boys. And then, 12 years\/13 years before I had my daughter. A lot of surrender\u2014a lot of learning\u2014learning that God is enough, even without giving me all the things I wanted, as a woman: beautiful gifts, a femininity\u2014bearing children\u2014all of that. But in the end, God was so gracious and so kind. I just give Him all the praise for that.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:14:41):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s amazing.\r\n\r\nDave: That's beautiful. \r\n\r\nOne of the things that you mention in the book is attributes of a man and a woman\u2014manhood, womanhood\u2014one of them: I even said to Ann last night about womanhood; I was like, \u201cOh, that's an interesting one: softness.\u201d Because even when we were talking a second ago about control, and making things happen\u2014there's part of a man and a woman; it's like, \u201cMake things happen; go for it. God wants you to initiate.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:15:12):\r\n\r\n\u201cGet her done!\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:15:13):\r\n\r\nAnd then, when I read \u201csoftness,\u201d I'm like, \u201cOh, that feels like no control.\u201d Ann, right away goes, \u201cOh, no; that's a great attribute of women.\u201d \r\n\r\nLet me list the six\u2014take any you want\u2014you talk about femininity; ability to produce life\u2014these are all attributes of womanhood\u2014softness; responsiveness toward godly leadership; relational connection; helping the man glorify God.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:15:38):\r\n\r\nThese attributes\u2014there's six attributes of manhood and six attributes of womanhood we unpack\u2014and we go straight to Genesis. We were like: \u201cWhat does God actually reveal through Adam, through Eve, in His order of creation and how He brought about the man and all of the details there. As you zoom in, Genesis 1 is like the flyover. And then, you get to Genesis 2; it's like zooming in on this picture, and unpacking the details of how God created Adam and Eve, and that whole process. We did not make these up; these were attributes we saw in Scripture, in Genesis 1 and 2; we're highlighting them. \r\n\r\nI find them fascinating. I think a lot of Christian women are like, \u201cWell, does God really have a lot to say about what it means to be a man and a woman?\u201d Well, Genesis 1 and 2\u2014most people want to read the whole Bible\u2014you don't get too far. Most of our Genesis wanted to a million times, and we miss it because it's easy to gloss over. We're like, \u201cThat's familiar.\u201d But you zoom into the details; and you see these attributes that God is pulling out in Adam in creating him first, and giving him order; giving him leadership over creation; giving him a job to name all of the animals. He actually created Adam outside of the garden, it says; and then, it says He brought him into the garden. It was almost like he was bringing Adam into the place that would then be his home for his new family. \r\n\r\nAdam is doing all of this before Eve even enters the scene. God gives Adam the instructions for the garden: \u201cThere's a tree; don't eat of it,\u201d \u201cHere's what you can do.\u201d All of those instructions happen before Eve even exists. Very interesting.\r\n\r\n(01:17:09) We see God doing something here. He's preparing the man to be a leader for his family\/to be the head of his family to take care of his family. He gives him the instructions. He's equipping Adam. He even gives him practice working, naming all the animals. \r\n\r\nThen we see that God takes\u2014and y'all know the story by heart\u2014most people do. But it's just so beautiful when you really ponder it. God taking a rib from Adam\u2014creating the woman in the garden\u2014by the way, she's made inside the home that she'll live in with her husband and her family. And then, we see this beautiful counterpart to Adam. She is different in her makeup\/in her biology. Adam is this man, with this testosterone surging through his body; different in his biological function. And then, we see this woman, who is also strong; but has this softness to her, these curves, this femininity. She's surging with estrogen, which each of these hormones drive the man and the woman in very different ways. Eve is made with a womb, a uterus. She has the capacity to conceive, to bear children, to bring forth new life and to nurture that life with her own body through breastfeeding. You just see these distinctions, and go, \u201cThere is nothing random about this. God is intentionally laying out this beautiful picture of manhood and womanhood right here.\u201d\r\n\r\nThe softness that we talk about, which a lot of women\u2014we even say, \u201cDon't throw this book across the room when you hear this word, because you're not going to like it!\u201d\u2014but what it's getting at is this: a woman is strong in her resolve to follow God; she's strong for her family; strong in the ways that she serves others\/that bless others; that lead her family in the way she's called to nurture her children and lead them. But there's this internal softness\u2014this softness of spirit, this gentle and quiet spirit\u2014doesn't mean that she's a mouse, that she can't speak, that she has no opinions.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:19:05):\r\n\r\nIt doesn't mean she's quiet.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:19:07):\r\n\r\nNo, it doesn't mean her volume. I have a very loud voice. My husband, in restaurants\u2014he does this visual cue, where he pretends to turn me down\u2014he's like, \u201cHoney, honey, honey.\u201d It doesn't mean she's quiet in volume; but that she has this inner peace, this inner trust in the Lord for who she is. As a result of that, there is this softness in her demeanor, in her character, in her\u2014it can even be in her words, where she is soft and responsive toward her husband's leadership, where she welcomes his opinion, his input\u2014she might even seek it out. There is this softness that can only come from the Lord, because Genesis 3 quickly reveals that sin entered the scene. This beautiful design was quickly distorted with our sin; and we were pit against one another\u2014battle of the sexes\u2014it started in Genesis 3, where the woman would have this sinful desire to rule over and dominate her husband; so that softness would not be there naturally. \r\n\r\nThis inclination to be responsive is something we see in Eve\u2014God giving her to her husband, and saying to Adam, \u201cHere's your woman\u201d; [Adam], \u201cShe shall be called Eve.\u201d And then, we see later in Ephesians that beautiful role of being a helpmate, of coming alongside the man\u2014and that beautiful partnership\u2014not as a less-than partner, but an equally-valuable partner, with a different role. That softness is actually a beautiful quality that God wants to cultivate in women, that we would have that peaceful, gentle response. That does not come naturally to me! That is the work that God continues to do in my heart, to create a softness in my heart toward my husband and my children. \r\n\r\nAnn: What do you think of that, Dave?\r\n\r\nDave (01:20:51):\r\n\r\nOh, I think that's beautiful.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:20:52):\r\n\r\nHe's like, \u201cMore of that, please!\u201d \r\n\r\nDave (01:20:54):\r\n\r\nThat is the tension\u2014in the sin nature of Genesis 3 and beyond\u2014your desire to be for your husband, but he will rule over you. There's this fight that's everlasting until we're standing before Him in glory. That'll be a tension in every relationship, especially in marriage. \r\n\r\nWhen I read \u201csoftness,\u201d I'm like, \u201cShe is not soft.\u201d \r\n\r\nKristen: But would you say her spirit is soft?\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014the way you just defined it, yes. You have a tender heart toward God, and toward me; and it's a beautiful thing. So that's the right word.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:21:32):\r\n\r\nIt's taken time though, too, because of the culture that I was raised in. In fact, I told Dave, as I was reading your book, because you have a chapter called \u201cThe Cosmo Girl.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:21:43):\r\n\r\nYes; \u201cSeduced by the Cosmo Girl.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (01:21:46):\r\n\r\nI told Dave: \u201cI can remember being 12 years old; I can remember where I was in Florida with my grandparents and my mom on vacation. There was a Cosmo magazine in this bookstore. I bought it, and I read that thing, cover to cover, in 1972; and that shaped me. There's this part of me that's like, \u201cI'm going to be strong. I'm going to have my own sexual,\u201d\u2014I didn't grow up in the church at all. Women being strong, dominant, independent, and sexual\u2014all those things\u2014set me on this path for that. \r\n\r\nAs I got into marriage, as a new believer\u2014not understanding the Word, but also wanting to protect myself and not lose that independence\u2014I don't think I wanted to be soft at all: \u201cThat seems weak to me.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:22:37):\r\n\r\nYes, softness is equated with weakness. That is so much of what the feminist movement pushed women to be strong: \u201cYou must never, never, ever give into anything or never lay down your opinion for someone else. Never sacrifice.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:22:50):\r\n\r\n\u201cNever.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:22:50):\r\n\r\n\u201cThat is weakness.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:22:51):\r\n\r\n\u2014especially, your husband. \r\n\r\nKristen (01:22:53):\r\n\r\nOh, especially your husband.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:22:55):\r\n\r\nIt's taken me years to embrace the softness. And even now, I'm getting older; I had Dave open my water bottle. I would have never done that in my younger years; because I thought, \u201cI'm strong.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:23:10):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s because she fell out of the bed\u2014 \r\n\r\nAnn: I didn't fall! Stop saying this!\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014on our vacation and hit her thumb. She didn't see a step; she's stepping out of the bed.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:23:19):\r\n\r\nI was\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (01:23:19):\r\n\r\nShe missed a step. She thinks she broke her thumb.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:23:22):\r\n\r\n\u2014a lounger bed. \r\n\r\nKristen: No!\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014not in bed.\r\n\r\nDave (01:23:24):\r\n\r\nSo she's not weak that way; she just can't use her thumb anymore. I'm like, \u201cMaybe, we should go to a doctor.\u201d \u201c Oh, no; I'm not going to a doctor. I don't have time to go to a doctor.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (01:23:32):\r\n\r\n\u201cI don't have time to go to the doctor.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:23:33):\r\n\r\n\u201cWho has time for the doctor?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (01:23:35):\r\n\r\nBut do you see the pridefulness that I had\/the arrogance that \u201cI will be strong. I'll be as strong as you.\u201d Now, I'm like: \u201cYou're so much stronger than me,\u201d \u201cYou're so capable,\u201d \u201cI love your opinion.\u201d My pride and arrogance didn't allow me to really go into those places; it's embarrassing to say that. \r\n\r\nKristen: I can relate. \r\n\r\nDave (01:23:55):\r\n\r\nAnd last thought in my mind\u2014when we're back in Genesis 1, 2, and 3\u2014think about this; I know it's not a new thought: \u201cWhen did Satan, the snake, tempt? He didn't tempt Adam alone; he didn't tempt Eve alone. He tempted them now, as a couple. So all those things that we just talked about\u2014this desire for power; this desire for control of the man\/of the woman\u2014is tempted in a relationship called marriage.\u201d \r\n\r\nYou step into marriage, and think, \u201cOh, this is going to be awesome. It\u2019s going to be wonderful,\u201d\u2014which it is.\r\n\r\nKristen: \u2014which it is.\r\n\r\nAnn: It is so wonderful.\r\n\r\nDave: It is all those things\u2014but there will be a battle that is uniquely significant to the marriage relationship\u2014it's a battle without marriage\u2014but when you say: \u201cTwo become one, and we're going to reflect to the world the love of God, the gospel, like Christ and the church\u2014Ephesians 5\u2014there's an enemy, who\u2019s going to say, \u201cI will not let that happen. This battle for control is going to be a part of that relationship.\u201d It's in the garden\u2014it's going to be in every garden, in every bedroom, every family room, every kitchen\u2014it's going to be there every single day if we don't understand our unique design, by God, as husband, as wife, as man and woman\u2014that helps when you understand that\u2014that softness. And a man needs to be soft too, in a different way.\r\n\r\nKristen: There\u2019s a tenderness.\r\n\r\nDave: Soft toward the will of God in my marriage\u2014and yet, strong in my leadership. It's always going to be a challenge; but beautiful, when done the way God wants, it reveals Him to the world.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:25:27):\r\n\r\n\u2014by His strength. There is no way I could ever even desire to want to embrace godly womanhood without God changing my heart. It goes against so much of my sinful, and just natural personality, my leadership strengths. There is just so much, where I just want to say, \u201cMove over, dude; I've got this.\u201d I have to fight it all the time. \r\n\r\nAnn: Me too, Kristen. Me too. \r\n\r\nKristen: Now, there are areas my husband\u2014he's like, \u201cBabe, will you just take this on in our family? Will you be the one who plans all of our vacations and details?\u201d I love that kind of stuff; I feel like I'm good at it; he's not as gifted. There are things we divide and conquer in marriage. That's wonderful and beautiful to use your strengths in ways that bless the family. But it has to be from the right heart\u2014not: \u201cI've got this; I'm more capable. My identity is found in me being strong, and I cannot be weak,\u201d\u2014it's in doing it for the good, as a family, honoring God.\r\n\r\nDave (01:26:19):\r\n\r\nHere's a whole other thought\u2014I don't want to take us down another thing\u2014we've talked a long time. But here's the other side of this, from the man\u2019s side. \u201cMove over, dude; I've got this,\u201d\u2014there's a passivity in us, as men, where we do move over; and we say, \u201cAlright; go ahead.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:26:34):\r\n\r\n\u201cOkay, ladies; take it from here!\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:26:37):\r\n\r\nA lot of women will. There's part of me that wants to say to us, as a man: \u201cGuys, step up. No, there are parts you shouldn't move over; you're called to lead. You're called to be the head. You're called to bring spiritual leadership into the home. You're called to be gentle and soft in all those ways; but you are also called, not to move over.\u201d You usurp [your leadership] and say, \u201cOkay, I don't want to lead this family; you go ahead.\u201d It's like, \u201cNo, you lead together; but you need to lead, guys. Don't move over,\u201d\u2014not in a bad way\u2014\r\n\r\nKristen (01:27:03):\r\n\r\nRight; I know what you\u2019re saying.\r\n\r\nDave (01:27:03):\r\n\r\n\u2014like this control thing. \r\n\r\nAnn (01:27:05):\r\n\r\nI think you've done that. \r\n\r\nDave (01:27:06):\r\n\r\n\u201cDon\u2019t be passive.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (01:27:06):\r\n\r\nYou've done that beautifully. I think I was so strong and domineering that I pushed you out of the way; and you're like, \u201cAlright, go ahead.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen: \u201cShe wants it that bad\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014\u201ctake it.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: But now, you've walked in; and I feel like, especially being married to someone strong,\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (01:27:21):\r\n\r\nBut there are times where we, as men, are passive.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:27:24):\r\n\r\nI'm saying you are not any; I don't think you are.\r\n\r\nDave (01:27:27):\r\n\r\nThere are times where she'll pray; I'm just going to go, \u201cGo ahead.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen: Just be honest: confession. \r\n\r\nDave: She'll have a conversation with the grandkids about God. I'll just watch rather than: \u201cNo, step in there. Be the man and be what God's called me to be.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:27:41):\r\n\r\nYou're doing some self-talk here.\r\n\r\nDave (01:27:43):\r\n\r\nYeah, I'm talking to every guy out there who\u2019s done that. \r\n\r\nKristen (01:27:45):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s an ongoing struggle for the men to step up and lead for the women. Isn't it interesting?\u2014Ann, I know you relate to this\u2014we want our husbands to be strong leaders. We want them to take initiative, to have opinions, to have direction and vision for our families. And then, yet, we sabotage that without even realizing that.\r\n\r\nDave (01:28:04):\r\n\r\nI\u2019m going to say, \u201cWhen we do that, then you push back.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:28:07):\r\n\r\nWe bulldoze them over!\r\n\r\nDave (01:28:07):\r\n\r\n\u201cI\u2019m doing what you just told me to do! I\u2019m leading right now, and you're yelling at me and telling me not to.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: That\u2019s why I just wrote that book! \r\n\r\nDave: I guess.\r\n\r\nAnn: How to Speak Life to Your Husband When All You Want to Do Is Yell at Him.\r\n\r\nDave: \u201cI just did what you wanted; but now you don't want me to do it because you are.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (01:28:20):\r\n\r\nOkay. So here's the book, Made to Be She: Reclaiming God's Plan for Fearless Femininity. You know what I love, too, Kristen?\r\n\r\nDave (01:28:29):\r\n\r\nYou love that it\u2019s pink.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:28:30):\r\n\r\nI do like that; it's kind of a stinky salmon. \r\n\r\nI love that there's a study guide after each chapter,\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (01:28:36):\r\n\r\nYeah, that's good.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:28:37):\r\n\r\n\u2014so you can do it in a small group.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:28:39):\r\n\r\nAbsolutely. In a small group\u2014with a couple ladies, or a small group at church\u2014or even by yourself; if you're like, \u201cI do not understand God's design as much as I thought I did. I need something to dig in.\u201d I benefit greatly from being able to reflect on what I read, and process, and answer questions, and just think about things; so we included it at the end of every chapter for the women, like me, who need that time to process; or to do it in a group with a small group of believers.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:29:03):\r\n\r\nAnd you may push back on some of the things; that's okay. But to have the discussion\u2014to go into the Bible to see what it says\u2014is really important. \r\n\r\nKristen: Absolutely. \r\n\r\nAnn: This has been fun. \r\n\r\nAnn: Hey, thanks for watching. If you liked this episode,\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (01:29:18):\r\n\r\nYou better like it.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:29:18):\r\n\r\n\u2014just hit that \u201cLike\u201d button.\r\n\r\nDave (01:29:20):\r\n\r\nAnd we'd like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the \u201cSubscribe\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\nI can't say the word, \u201csubscribe\u201d\u2014hit the \u201cSubscribe\u201d button. I don't think I can say this \r\n\r\nword! \r\n\r\nAnn: I can: \u201csubscribe.\u201d \r\n\r\nDave: Look at that! You say it so easily. \u201cSubscribe\u201d; there he goes!\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife.com                                 \r\n\r\n\n"],"ssp_guid":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/be-a-godly-woman-in-a-world-that-wants-you-to-be-a-boss-kristen-clark\/"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-317220.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-317220.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__video-wrap video{opacity: 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does it truly mean to be a woman in a world of conflicting messages? Join FamilyLife Today Podcast hosts Dave and Ann Wilson as they sit down with Kristen Clark, co-author of Made to Be She: Reclaiming God\u2019s Plan for Fearless Femininity, to tackle the cultural lies surrounding womanhood.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"\n<ul>\n<li>\n<p>Get your copy of \"<a href=\"https:\/\/girldefined.com\/the-books\/she\">Made To Be She: Reclaiming God's Plan for Fearless Femininity<\/a>\"<\/p>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-09-09.pdf","transcript_content":"\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nMade to Be She\r\n\r\nGuest: Kristen Clark\r\n\r\nRelease Date: September 9, 2025\r\n\r\nKristen (00:00:00):\r\n\r\nAs women\/men, we have so many giftings and talents. There are unique ways God will open doors for us to use them. There is this funnel for female success\u2014and it's not necessarily rooted in God's Word\u2014we encourage young women to just ask the question: \u201cWill this path I'm pursuing be hospitable toward the path of marriage and motherhood if God calls me down that one day?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:00:25):\r\n\r\nOkay, Kristen, here's my question to start us out: \u201cAre we, as women in our culture today, being lied to about what a woman is?\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (00:00:35):\r\n\r\nAbsolutely; we are. \r\n\r\nAnn: You would say, \u201cAbsolutely\u201d!\r\n\r\nKristen: Absolutely, we are being lied to without even realizing it. I think\u2014on both ends of the spectrum; it's not just worldly lies that are coming from unbiblical places\u2014but I think, in some ways, there have been conservative movements, saying: \u201cThis is what it means to be a woman\u2026\u201d \u201cThis is what godly womanhood is\u2026\u201d But some of those standards from Christian movements aren't even rooted in the Word; so we're actually being lied to from both ends of the spectrum:\r\n\r\nfrom the world's version of what it means to be a woman, totally rejecting God's Word; defining things on our own terms; doing things our way. \r\n\r\nin some ways, the church has gotten it wrong as well, saying, \u201cThis is what it means to be a woman\u2026\u201d; but again, it's not actually rooted in God's Word. \r\n\r\nIt's hard; it's hard to sort through the noise and to get back to God's Word, and say, \u201cWhat does the Bible actually say it means to be a woman?\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:28):\r\n\r\nWhat was that look you [Dave] just gave me?\r\n\r\nDave (00:01:29):\r\n\r\nThe look was: \u201cThat's a bold statement,\u201d\u2014which I love.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:34):\r\n\r\n\u2014on both ends; me too.\r\n\r\nDave (00:01:34):\r\n\r\nI love it; it's like you just said: the church\u2014I'm sitting here, as a pastor, \u201cHave I lied? Have I taught God's Word wrong in the world?\u201d I'm sitting here, thinking\u2014I'm watching two generations sitting in front of me of women\u2014because Ann and I grew up in the \u201860s and the \u201870s, when there was a feminist movement that you referenced in this great book, Made to Be She: Reclaiming God's Plan for Fearless Femininity.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:02:03):\r\n\r\nIt's a tongue twister! \r\n\r\nDave (00:02:06):\r\n\r\nFemininity.\r\n\r\nKristen: Femininity; I know! \r\n\r\nDave: It's like Fearless Femininity. I can't speak for you\u2014you were\u2014, I remember Helen Reddy.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:02:14):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nDave (00:02:14):\r\n\r\nThat was a big song in my generation: \u201cI am woman; hear me\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014roar.\u201d \r\n\r\nKristen: \u201cHere me roar; oh, yes.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: She's sort of grown up in that. You're now, a next generation, looking at it. What's the lie been? Talk about first of world, I guess.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:02:30):\r\n\r\nYeah, if you ask a woman today\/a young woman today\u2014\u201cWhat does it mean to be a feminist?\u201d\u2014you will get so many answers. In fact, I share a story in Made to Be She. I was volunteering at this home for younger women, who were getting help. There was this young 16-year-old girl; she just looked at me out of the blue, and said, \u201cAre you a feminist?\u201d I said, \u201cWell, what do you mean by feminist?\u201d And then, she said, \u201cWell, I just mean that I don't need a man; and I can do things my way. I'm strong.\u201d That opened the door for a very interesting conversation with this young woman. \r\n\r\nIt really got my wheels turning to realize that feminism isn't just this thing that happened\u2014there were the waves: the first wave, the second wave, the third wave of feminism\u2014we kind of think of it in historical terms. But it is really alive and well in the hearts of young women\u2014women who are much younger than me, in this generation, of women\u2014who are saying, \u201cYeah, I identify as a feminist.\u201d I think, for so many of them, what it means is that just like this young woman said: \u201cI don't need a man. I can do things my way. I'm strong; I'm independent; I'm capable.\u201d Some things I would say: \u201cYeah, we do need to have some of this independence\u2014this capability\u2014of course.\u201d \r\n\r\nBut when you get to the heart of what they're saying, it's really: \u201cI'm a woman on my own terms. I will define what it means to be a woman. I'm not looking to men in any way. I'm not looking to God's Word in any way. I'm a strong woman, because I can define this for myself,\u201d and \u201cBeing the same as a man\/being equal as a man, or even being more powerful\/stronger than a man, that's what makes me this liberated woman.\u201d \r\n\r\nTalking to this young woman, I realized like, \u201cWow, this is really alive and well.\u201d It got me thinking in my own heart: \u201cHow have I bought into some of these lies of the feminist movements that have happened?\u201d The feminist movements have left behind this ideology in our churches, in our society, in our culture of what it means to be a woman. It's not looking to God's Word in any way, shape, or form to define it. It's really looking within ourselves\u2014looking to other women\u2014to define what it means to be a woman. That was pretty eye-opening for me to hear that from her.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:04:32):\r\n\r\nWhat did you discover as you looked into your own life? What were some of the things that you carried that you weren't even aware of?\r\n\r\nKristen (00:04:38):\r\n\r\nOh, my goodness. I'm married; we've been married for now 14 years. One of the struggles that I saw\u2014as I was really digging into writing about these past movements\u2014we wanted our book to unpack: \u201cWhat were the movements?\u201d \u201cHow have they impacted our thinking today?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:04:53):\r\n\r\nYou and your sister, Bethany, wrote this book.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:04:55):\r\n\r\nYes; we wrote it together. It was probably one of the hardest books we've written. Like I said, early on, we wanted to get to God's Word; we didn't want to add to the noise; we didn't want to add our own convictions, our own things we were taught from the church; but \u201cReally, what does God's Word actually say?\u201d Yes, there's a lot of truth that we learned in the church; I'm not saying it's all lies. There were so many wonderful, amazing, biblically-grounded things; but there were things that we added on ourselves to what it means to be a woman that are not found in God's Word. \r\n\r\nFor me, some of the things that the feminist movements and the ideologies have impacted in my own life, as I did some heart examination, was I saw I do have this desire to be fiercely independent from my husband. When we see in God's Word, which we unpack\u2014I don\u2019t know if we'll get into the roles topic, and the husband and the wife distinctions between the man and the woman\u2014but I saw, in my own heart, this desire to want to push against my husband: to want to push against his leadership; to want to push against his opinions, his thoughts, his ideas; and do things my way.\r\n\r\nDave: My wife says\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:05:56):\r\n\r\nI have never done that in my life.\r\n\r\nKristen: Have you ever felt that?\r\n\r\nAnn: I don't even know what you're talking about right now. \r\n\r\nDave (00:06:02):\r\n\r\nWe\u2019re describing our marriage right there. There's some of that that I love about her\u2014the strength\u2014but you're right; there can be this real tension.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:06:10):\r\n\r\nAnd then, you think: \u201cDoes that independence just come from personality; or have we been shaped, and have we been hurt in a way that's made us become more independent because we couldn't depend on a man or a husband?\u201d There's so much even to that. \r\n\r\nKristen (00:06:26):\r\n\r\nI know there's so much in there. Something that I was wrestling with recently was the idea of\u2014and I've never struggled with this; it's so crazy\u2014my husband is the breadwinner in our family; he always has been. He's been an amazing provider. Recently, I have taken some steps back in some of my roles, ministry-wise, and so have taken also steps back in pay. For the first time, I was really wrestling with almost my identity, like, \u201cOh, I'm not really bringing in as much as I was, financially, into our family.\u201d Yes, he's the breadwinner\u2014I appreciate that; I'm grateful for his provision\u2014but it was almost this little lie that was creeping into my heart, like, \u201cWell, you're not as valuable as a woman. Look at you: you're not really contributing, financially.\u201d And then, almost this fear in my heart of like, \u201cOh, no; I'm not worth as much. I need to be doing more,\u201d\u2014even though I know God is calling me to be a full-time mom to three precious kids; we homeschool; life is very full on that front. It's what I've prayed for years, after a decade of infertility; I am so grateful. But that lie\u2014just like boom!\u2014hit me out of nowhere. I really had to fight against that.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:07:28):\r\n\r\nI remember being in a doctor's office\u2014and you write about this too\u2014I had to fill in my occupation when our kids were all little. We would speak periodically, but I was mainly a stay-at-home mom. I couldn't put that down! I was like, \u201cWhy can't I write that?\u201d I put \u201cSpeaker\u201d or something, because the world says that occupation isn't as worthy as some other field.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:07:54):\r\n\r\nAbsolutely. That was one of the huge pushes back when you were younger, right? You talk about the \u201860s, \u201870s, \u201880s\u2014that era of the feminist movement\u2014was really pushing this idea that what a woman does inside the home is basically worthless and has no value [compared to] what she does outside of the home. In the workplace, the feminist movement was really pushing for this idea of equality between men and women. It was equality on the fronts of financial equality, of role equality\u2014meaning the same\u2014unless women are making the same amount of money or more as men, unless they are doing the same jobs as men. \r\n\r\nIn fact, there was one quote we write in our book, where one feminist said that her goal was for 50 percent of the jobs to be\u2014or for 100 percent of the jobs to be 50 percent employed by women\u2014so women would come in and occupy 50 percent of the workforce; which means, \u201cWhat happens at home?\u201d Women are encouraged\u2014not only encouraged, but pushed\u2014we were fed this lie, for years, that says: \u201cWhat you do in the home doesn't matter. Anyone can do that\u2014anyone can watch your kids; anyone can cook a meal\u2014you need to get out there and make something happen. You need to be successful.\u201d There was a lot of pressure, in that era, for women just to get out of the home. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:09:07):\r\n\r\nYou just stepped on a whole bunch of toes. \r\n\r\nKristen: I know; I know. \r\n\r\nAnn: Women are like: \u201cWhat?! Wait, wait, wait, wait\u201d; because we should have equal pay, and we should be in the workforce. \u201cBut what's at risk?\u201d \u201cWhat's at stake?\u201d and \u201cWhy are we doing it?\u201d\u2014is that what you're saying?\r\n\r\nKristen (00:09:20):\r\n\r\nYes, I'm getting after this heart of the feminist movement\u2014devaluing the home to say what a woman does in the home has no value\u2014it has no worth, because there isn't a paycheck tied to it. Absolutely, women bring so much value in the workforce. I'm not here, saying, \u201cWomen shouldn't be in the workforce in any way, shape or form.\u201d In fact, I was in the workforce for many years\u2014not in this professional career capacity\u2014but working full-time ministry outside of the home. \r\n\r\nWhat it really comes down to is us, as women, recognizing: \u201cOkay, there are a lot of opinions; there's a lot of noise; there are intentional movements shaping my thoughts about these things. But what does God's Word say? What does He value? And does my heart align with his?\u201d That's going to look different\u2014for our hearts are aligning with God's Word, the truth that we're all pursuing; we should be pursuing\u2014but the way that plays out, in each of our seasons of life. Ann, you're in a season where you can do so much outside the home; you don't have kids at home\u2014I've got a one-year-old, a fifteen-year-old, eleven-year-old; they're needy; these kids need a lot of things\u2014so the way I prioritize might look different than the way you do.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:10:26):\r\n\r\nAnd that's the truth. There's not one minute now that I look back and regret that I was home. When I started having kids\u2014we had been married six years, so we waited a while\u2014and I had that same crisis. It's an identity crisis: \u201cWho am I apart from what I'm doing?\u201d It makes you dig down into your identity: \u201cWho am I, in Christ, apart from what I'm doing?\u201d Because that's what matters. You guys talk about that a lot. I was home and I could be, which was a gift too; because not everyone can, financially. \r\n\r\nKristen (00:11:04):\r\n\r\nYes, we have to acknowledge that.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:11:04):\r\n\r\nExactly. But man, those were precious years. It felt like a million years at the time.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:11:10):\r\n\r\nThe days are slow; the years go fast! \r\n\r\nAnn (00:11:13):\r\n\r\nBut it flew by, and I'm so glad I don't have any regrets that I was home.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:11:17):\r\n\r\nThere is this intentional\u2014we call it \u201cThe funnel for female success\u201d\u2014it's this funnel that young women, in particular, are kind of set on this track, without even realizing it today.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014for sure. \r\n\r\nKristen: It's this track of: you finish high school; you immediately go to college; you need some sort of really successful degree so that you can get your job; you get in debt; you start working, and you basically set yourself up to be so locked into your job, paying off your debt that one day if you get married\u2014which most women do still; most women still want to have kids\u2014they find so many young women find themselves in this place in their later 20s, 30s, where they're still paying off debt. They worked hard to earn their degree, understandably\u2014they're working\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: And now, they're trying to get a home. \r\n\r\nKristen: Now, there's this tension, where they have this\u2014they're married; they have their first baby\u2014they're going, \u201cI don't know what to do. I want to spend more time with my baby, but I can't because I need to work. I need to put to use this degree that I've earned,\u201d or \u201c\u2026this career path that I'm on. If I step out, I'm going to be way behind my goals,\u201d\u2014 all these things and this whole girl-boss mentality. I'm seeing this tension. I get emails from women, who are saying, \u201cI don't know what to do. I am 30; no one told me I was going to face this. No one told me this was going to be a tension point in my life. And now, my husband and I are trying to figure out how to make this work. I want to spend more time with my baby.\u201d Some say, \u201cI want to be home altogether; I don't know how to make this work.\u201d\r\n\r\nSomething we talk about is\u2014young women recognize that there is this funnel for female success, and it's not necessarily rooted in God's Word\u2014for you to just take a step back, and say: \u201cGod has gifted me in many ways. As women\/men, we have so many giftings and talents. There are unique ways God will open doors for us to use them.\u201d \r\n\r\nFor women, we encourage young women to just ask the question: \u201cWill this path I'm pursuing be hospitable toward the path of marriage and motherhood if God calls me down that one day?\u201d So just thinking ahead\u2014five years; ten years\u2014\u201cIf I go down this path, is there going to be this big tension point in my life\/this big conflict where, now, I'm choosing between one or the other?\u201d or \u201cIs it possible to pursue a path, when you're young, that sets you up for success? So when you're older, you can easily shift into one; shift out of the other as seasons ebb and flow.\u201d That's just a huge encouragement we give to young women: \u201cJust think ahead and plan ahead.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:13:36):\r\n\r\nWhen you guys have reached out, and you've helped them walk through that idea, have they been grateful? Has it helped any?\u2014you've talked to people who have actually taken your advice.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:13:45):\r\n\r\nYes, we have. There have been women we actually got an email from one woman\u2014we knew her from a friend\u2014and she said, \u201cI was working full-time; I had full-time childcare for my baby. I read some of your stuff; I heard an episode you had on your podcast. I went home to my husband, and said, \u2018My priorities have been all backwards,\u2019\u201d\u2014for our family. Everyone has\u2014they're going to have to figure out what works for them\u2014but she said, \u201cMy priorities have been all backwards. I know that God wants me to be home with my baby, raising my kids. I told my husband, right then, \u2018How can we make this work financially? What can we change? Let's make sacrifices.\u2019\u201d They completely revamped their entire way their family had been operating. They made sacrifices; chose to live on less so that she could be home with her baby, spending more time with her; and actually, able to raise her. \r\n\r\nI know that's not possible for every single family, but I think it is for more families than they realize. We just take a step back, and say, \u201cWhere have my priorities been? How can I value this role?\u201d Not view it as less than, not view the paycheck as the only thing that makes something successful; but recognize that God has made men and women differently. The way that we fulfill those roles, within the family, is a beautiful thing\/a complimentary thing; but it's going to be played out in different ways.\r\n\r\nDave (00:15:05):\r\n\r\nSo what do you say to the women\u2014again, I'm not in your world; you guys are\u2014I'm not talking to very many women. But at least, it seems like I hear some women say, \u201cI love working; I love what I'm doing. I'm a mom; I'm a wife; I have daycare,\u201d\u2014whatever. Again, I don't know\u2014there's all kinds of scenarios\u2014but they feel like they're thriving in that world. Is that a bad thing?\r\n\r\nKristen (00:15:32):\r\n\r\nLike I said before, God has gifted us in so many ways as women, I'm a Type A.\r\n\r\nAnn: I am too.\r\n\r\nKristen: I am a go-getter; I love a checklist and to-dos. I love having a full plate, full of great things, that I'm working at. But something that I've had to really evaluate in my own heart and ask the question: \u201cIs this the right season of life for me to pursue this certain thing outside the home, using giftings that God has given me? Is this the right season for that?\u201d\r\n\r\nFor women, it's not that you're saying\/we're telling women: \u201cYou need to give up all the things that\u2014the ways God has gifted you and the degrees you've pursued\u2014but you might consider putting those a little bit on the back burner for a time. If you have young children in the home; and somebody else is spending eight, nine, ten hours a day, watching them\u2014and you're unable to be with them to disciple them, to nurture those relationships as their mom\u2014you might want to reconsider: \u2018Is this the season for me to be more at home? And then, when my kids are older, a season where I can go and pursue things outside the home in a more intentional way that I wasn't able to when they were younger?\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nIt's not: \u201cNo,\u201d\u2014forever your whole life\u2014it's just taking into account the various seasons and really asking the Lord: \u201cWhat would be faithful in this season?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:16:42):\r\n\r\nIt's a moment of surrender to Jesus. I can remember\u2014and I love ministry\u2014just as you said, Dave, I love impacting people with the gospel; I love working with women. I think our kids were six, nine, and eleven; I decided, \u201cI'm going to start the women's ministry at our church.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (00:17:04):\r\n\r\nOh, wow.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:17:05):\r\n\r\nAnd man, I was pumped about it: \u201cI'm going to do this.\u201d I did do it for, I think, two years. I stopped when they were at those ages, so I think Cody was probably four when I started. I'm so Type A that I can't let it go. When I'm home with the kids, I'm still thinking about it. I'm still on the phone; I'm still grinding on it. I was exhausted; I was so tired when I got home, I had nothing left. I remember praying about it, and saying that question, \u201cLord, is this the season? Should I be doing this now? Or should I wait?\u201d\u2014and being really open to what that means, even financially. \r\n\r\nI decided to wait. I'll never forget\u2014I had stopped; I was putting our, then, six-year-old, to bed\u2014he says, \u201cMom, you've been home every day; and you've been playing basketball with me every day.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen: Oh, my goodness. \r\n\r\nAnn: I said, \u201cYeah, what do you think about that?\u201d He hugged me; he goes, \u201cThat's the best present you could have ever given me.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen: Oh, my goodness. That makes me want to cry. \r\n\r\nAnn: I know. I look at that, and I think, \u201cI'm developing these little warriors for Jesus.\u201d And I was done\u2014they were out of the house when I was in my 40s still\u2014I've gotten to do all of those things that I had wanted to do. \r\n\r\nKristen (00:18:26):\r\n\r\nOh, that's so precious. \r\n\r\nAnn: What are you thinking? \r\n\r\nKristen: You've got a little smile.\r\n\r\nDave (00:18:30):\r\n\r\nI remember those days. It was interesting\u2014because when she took over the women's ministry, it thrived\u2014I remember watching her, going, \u201cShe's a better leader than I am. This ministry is blowing up in our church.\u201d There were tens of thousands of people; it was like, \u201cWow!\u201d In one point, I'm like, \u201cWow, you're really good; go!\u201d Back then, I'm not kidding, we had a phone with a cord.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:18:56):\r\n\r\nI remember those; I'm old enough to remember those.\r\n\r\nDave (00:19:00):\r\n\r\nI remember the image in my mind of that season: Ann on a phone around the kitchen\u2014with a kid in her lap, making dinner\u2014talking strategy with all these women. Meetings in our home. It was thriving; but it was like, \u201cWow, she really is singular-focused. It was like, \u201cHey, I'm multitasking; I've got three things going on.\u201d \r\n\r\nKristen (00:19:26):\r\n\r\n\u2014the hundred things; she's spinning all the plates.\r\n\r\nDave (00:19:28):\r\n\r\nLooking back, I do remember Cody saying that. It was like she just\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:19:32):\r\n\r\nI did cry.\r\n\r\nDave (00:19:34):\r\n\r\nIt was a hard decision; but it was the right one. \r\n\r\nKristen (00:19:36):\r\n\r\n\u2014for sure. And it's not that\u2014it's two really good things\u2014I think that's the tension for us, as women; sometimes we're like, \u201cOh, this is a really good thing,\u201d\u2014this ministry, this job\u2014\"I'm helping people; I am blessing people; I'm serving people; I'm making people's lives better. But what's the trade off?\u201d That's what we have to ask: \u201cIs this really a good thing?\u201d And then, this calling to be a wife and a mom, and do that in an intentional way to disciple and nurture those relationships. \r\n\r\nYou can't have it all at the same time. That is another big lie of the feminist movements: this idea that women can have it all. We should somehow be able to do everything in the home and everything in the workplace\u2014and manage all of it\u2014and have the same type of work as a man outside the home; but then, somehow, manage all of the chores, the dishes, the laundry, the cooking, the schedules\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014getting your Bible in, working out.\r\n\r\nKirsten (00:20:27):\r\n\r\nYeah, exactly! Not to mention working out and getting your Bible in, these things that we value; and then other relationships\/ Church women are trying to invest in all these things. We are told: \u201cYes, you can have it all,\u201d and \u201cYou should have it all.\u201d But as you see the lives of women\u2014in fact, there was a study done not too long ago; I can't remember the name of it\u2014we talk about it in Made to Be She; but they basically said, \u201cDespite 40 years of feminism\u201d\u2014fighting for women's rights, fighting for women to be equal with men in every single way; and not in the sense of identity, but in the sense of equal jobs and equal time spent in the workforce, those sort of things\u2014they said, \u201cDespite 40 years of this, women are less happy now than they were before the feminist movement began.\u201d They surveyed a bunch of women, so something isn't adding up. \r\n\r\nWe're told we can have it all; we're told we should have it all; we're told happiness is found outside of the home\u2014and everything we do outside is going to be more valuable than inside\u2014but somehow, we're still trying to manage both. Women are burning out; they are exhausted. I've even seen this, especially right now, there's this big movement amongst my generation\u2014millennials\u2014of women having side hustles. I'm all for side hustles. I think it's amazing that women are using their unique giftings to creatively work from their home and have small businesses and bring in extra income. But there's this pressure that I'm seeing on stay-at-home moms right now having to have a side hustle. Unless you have your side hustle going, and you've got your influencer account on Instagram, and you're making the money, then you're not enough. Even being a stay-at-home mom isn't enough unless you have your side hustle. \r\n\r\nI see these women working, working, hustling, hustling, trying to make this thing happen; and they're also burning out. But on paper, they're like, \u201cWell, I'm a stay-at-home mom\u201d; but you're not actually. It's not just about staying home. And that's what we say: \u201cIt's not just that you're physically home\u2014it's that you're there emotionally, mentally, spiritually\u2014that you're able to give to your family the things that your family needs in that season of life.\u201d And yes, there are things, other things you can do; but again, it's that balance: \u201cHow much can I take on over here?\u201d\u2014because something else is going to have to give. I think as women, we think we can do it all, but it's not working.\r\n\r\nAnn: Something's slipping\r\n\r\nKristen: Something's giving\u2014and it's the family\u2014I've seen that in my own life. In fact, my sister and I just recently, very honestly, after we wrote Made to Be She\u2014which, you know, writing a book is a very intense process; it takes a lot of time\u2014and then, you think it's amazing. And then, your editor sent it back with chapters ripped out and pages marked with \u201cX\u201ds; and you're like, \u201cNo! Back to the drawing board.\u201d It's like a knife in the heart, right? It's exhausting! \r\n\r\nShe and I were just talking: \u201cI wonder if now, that each of us are in seasons of having young kids in the home,\u201d\u2014we weren't when we started Girl Defined, neither of us. She wasn't married, and I didn't have kids. For ten years I didn't have kids, just with my infertility struggles. I was able to really pour into women and ministry and do so much outside of the home\u2014just my husband and I\u2014I can cook him dinner; I can be there for him; it doesn't take that much time. But then, when kids came on the scene for each of us, we really have had to reevaluate how we do things, how we prioritize things. Even in ministry, like you\u2019re saying, Ann, I think that I can't run at the same level as I was before and still be there for my family in the way that I feel God is calling me to right now. Even she and I have pulled back a lot in our ministry work\u2014outside ministry work\u2014the home is ministry as well, so that we can be more invested in\/more available for our kids. \r\n\r\nYou mentioned the basketball. My sons are 15 and 11\u2014same thing\u2014when I just go and spend time with them, shooting. And it's always the sports, right? \u201cMom, come jump on the trampoline,\u201d \u201cMom, come play basketball,\u201d \u201cMom\u2026.\u201d I'm like, \u201cI'm tired,\u201d\u2014but I want to work out\u2014so I guess this is a good thing. But when you say, \u201cYes,\u201d to those little ones, looking up at you, wanting to spend time with you, there is no greater gift in this world that you give them than that moment of saying, \u201cYes,\u201d and spending that time. It's precious, and you can't get it back.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:24:34):\r\n\r\nI love, as you went through and you looked at the six biggest ways the feminist movement sought to redefine womanhood\u2014and the titles were\u2014let's hit a couple of those; should we? \u201cGoodbye We; Hello Me.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (00:24:49):\r\n\r\nOkay, so this was the first wave feminism. This is interesting: this was one of the first\/the first moves that feminism made back in the early 1900s. You wouldn't, looking back on this, you wouldn't even really think this was something that was influencing women to think differently. But there really was this movement of women pushing for independence in a way that was separating the husband and the wife within the family\u2014it wasn't so much the we, as in the family\u2014we are united in our decision-making; we're united in even how we vote, women's suffrage. \r\n\r\nThere has been some interesting historical work done by some different Christian women, who have uncovered that. I know this is big red-hot button, so I don't mean to stir up anything here.\r\n\r\nDave (00:25:39):\r\n\r\nOh, let\u2019s stir it up; let's go! \r\n\r\nKristen: Alright; let\u2019s stir it up.\r\n\r\nEven in women's suffrage, a lot of the mentality behind the women, who were pushing for the vote\u2014at face value, I'm like, \u201cAbsolutely. Women voting: yes, I'm all for it.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: I would've fought for that too. \r\n\r\nKristen: \u201cThat's a good thing, right?\u201d\u2014but there's some controversy there that I didn't even know was there. It's that there were feminist movements, behind the scenes, pushing for this idea of the family not being a united unit, like where the family votes as a unit and the husband is the representative head of the family, but rather that women and men needed to each have their individualism, their autonomy that the family unit would not be viewed as one unit, but rather separate individuals. Now, the husband and the wife would vote separately. \r\n\r\nI know that sounds like: \u201cBut that could be a good thing.\u201d But it's interesting: it went from this\u2014\u201cWe, as a family, are voting in this way,\u201d\u2014to: \u201cThe husband's voting this way; the wife is voting this way.\u201d It became much more, like I said, autonomous, individual, separated. It really was a battle for going from the \u201cwe\u201d to the \u201cme\u201d society that was much more individualistic; that's the word that we use in there. So there was some controversy; there were Christian women, at the time, who were not on board\u2014not because they didn't want to vote\u2014but because they didn't like the shift in society, going from the family unit, \u201cwe,\u201d to this individualistic idea of separation of the husband and wife, being separate. That was just kind of interesting. \r\n\r\nWe say\/we're like, \u201cWe're not trying to enter this debate necessarily; we're just saying, \u2018Look at these small shifts that happened, where it wasn't just one thing all the way to where we are today in our society now\u2014where men can be women; women can be men; there's really no roles at all in marriage\u2014sexuality\/everything's been redefined\/rewritten.\u2019\u201d You go back in time; you say, \u201cWell, look at these families, back then\u201d\u2014they were so traditional, and they seem so much more grounded in the Word\u2014\"but just one step at a time\u2014one slippery slope at a time; one separation of the family unit\u2014laid the next domino, if you will; the dominoes were falling. This was one of the things that kind of kicked off this idea of men and women in their marriage, viewing themselves more as separate individuals, rather than a united front.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: I have never even thought of that. \r\n\r\nKristen (00:27:53):\r\n\r\nI know. \r\n\r\nAnn: Have you?\r\n\r\nKristen (00:27:54):\r\n\r\nNo. It wasn't until we started researching.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:27:56):\r\n\r\nYou can see how women, who have a good God-loving marriage, where he's leading by serving\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (00:28:05):\r\n\r\n\u2014like our perfect marriage.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:28:07):\r\n\r\nDave would represent us. You can see that. \r\n\r\nKristen: Right. And you would say, \u201cHe would do that well. I would trust Dave.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes. But there are probably a lot of marriages of a very domineering,\u2014\r\n\r\nKristen: Exactly.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014ungodly\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (00:28:17):\r\n\r\nI'm also guessing when I hear this\u2014and again, I don't want to get into the vote thing\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014because I\u2019m really glad women are voting.\r\n\r\nKristen: I am too.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:28:21):\r\n\r\nYou are too. \r\n\r\nDave (00:28:26):\r\n\r\nBut I'm guessing\u2014and maybe, I'm totally wrong\u2014most husbands and wives probably vote similar.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:28:33):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nDave (00:28:33):\r\n\r\nIn fact, let me ask, \u201cWhat's the percentage of husbands and wives who vote for the same candidate?\u201d See if it comes back with anything.\r\n\r\nKristen: We're doing a live search right now. \r\n\r\nAnn: That\u2019s right; we are.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:28:43):\r\n\r\nTechnology.\r\n\r\nDave (00:28:47):\r\n\r\n\u201cGender gap voting choices in presidential elections\u201d: oh, it doesn't give me anything.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:28:51):\r\n\r\nOh, come on!\r\n\r\nAnn: You guys should look up\u2014Jim and\u2014\r\n\r\nKristen: Give us the scoop. We want to know. \r\n\r\nBruce (00:28:58):\r\n\r\nWho are you asking?\u2014ChatGPT? \r\n\r\nDave: Yeah. \r\n\r\nAnn: Who would you guys ask? Yeah, go ahead.\r\n\r\nDave (00:29:02):\r\n\r\nI just asked Siri.\r\n\r\nAnn: Bruce\u2014\r\n\r\nKristen (00:29:03):\r\n\r\nOh, ChatGPT is the way you go.\r\n\r\nBruce (00:29:05):\r\n\r\nYeah; now, you got to do AI. \r\n\r\nDave: I don't even think I have it on here. \r\n\r\nBruce: \u201cMarried couples often\u201d\u2014what's the question you\u2019re asking?\r\n\r\nKristen (00:29:12):\r\n\r\n\u201cDo married couples often vote for the same candidate?\u201d\u2014or \u201cHow often\u2026\u201d  \r\n\r\nBruce (00:29:16):\r\n\r\n\u201cHow often do married couples vote for the same candidate?\u201d\r\n\r\nChatGPT (00:29:21):\r\n\r\n\u201cStudies suggest that married couples tend to vote the same way, but it's not always the case. There can be differences depending on factors like age, education, and political views.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: See. \r\n\r\nDave (00:29:33):\r\n\r\nWell, that was really helpful. \r\n\r\nKristen: It\u2019s basically saying\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: I'm guessing, like you first said, \u201cI bet it's pretty similar.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: I bet it is too.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:29:39):\r\n\r\nYeah, I'd imagine. You guys\u2014just looking at your own\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce: Eighty percent.\r\n\r\nDave (00:29:43):\r\n\r\nEighty; that's what I would say.\r\n\r\nBruce (00:29:45):\r\n\r\nEighty percent. \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014that would vote the same. That would make sense.\r\n\r\nDave (00:29:46):\r\n\r\nI was going to say eight out of ten; that was going to be my number. \r\n\r\nBruce: You didn't say it though. \r\n\r\nDave: I didn't. I'm going to say it now though: \u201cI think it's about eight out of ten.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (00:29:54):\r\n\r\nNow, we have ChatGPT\u2019s facts. \r\n\r\nAnn: Okay, that's just giving everybody something to talk about. \r\n\r\nLet's move on to the next one: \u201cMove over, dude, I've got this.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (00:30:03):\r\n\r\nOkay; \u201cMove over, dude; got this,\u201d was this push for women, again, to be totally independent from their husbands. Traditionally, as we unpack later in the book, \u201cGod's Design for Men and Women,\u201d we see God very intentionally designed the husband. We see this in Genesis. We see this in the New Testament in Ephesians, where God lays out the husband, and the wife, and marriage. God designed for the husband to have a leadership role within the family, very intentionally. Now, God designed it to be a good role, a godly, loving servant leadership\u2014not this domineering, oppressive role\u2014where the husband is essentially laying down his life, his desires, his wants for the good of his family. \r\n\r\nThe feminist movement really viewed, in so many ways, the battle of the sexes. We hear that term\u2014viewed these roles as a very negative and oppressive thing\u2014that a man should have no leadership in any way over a woman. \u201cTo be equal, they must be the same in their roles within the home, within the church, within the workplace; that in every way, they must be exactly the same in order to be equal.\u201d There was this push for: \u201cMove over, dude,\u201d where the wives are saying, \u201cHey, I've got this; I don't need you anymore.\u201d \r\n\r\nWomen were being told: \u201cLook at you, you oppressed housewife. You've been living under this man's leadership. Get out! And then, you'll be happy.\u201d Again, it was always this pursuit of happiness that there is going to be some sort of fulfillment, some sort of happiness for you, as a woman, found on the other side of whatever they were pushing for in that moment, in that wave of feminism. For women, this was the era, where they were saying, \u201cGet out of your homes. Get out from under your husband's leadership; it's not working.\u201d \r\n\r\nNow, it's interesting: because there is some truth, right? If you are not a believer\u2014and you're not following the Lord; your husband's not following the Lord\u2014those roles in a Christian marriage, where you're following the Lord, are very challenging; there's a lot of sin. Without the Lord, I would say these things don't make sense; they, in many ways, feel impossible. It is only with the Lord\u2014and with the husband and the wife submitting to Him\/submitting to His design\u2014saying, \u201cGod, Your ways are better than our ways. Your desires for us and our family and these roles in marriage; this is Your good plan. Help us to lean into this. Help us to honor this, to trust You as we pursue this. Even though we don't really get it all the time, we know that You're a good Father; and You have good plans.\u201d As Christians, we can look and see that; and we can remind ourselves of those truths. \r\n\r\n(00:32:39) I can understand why there were women in the feminist movement, if you didn't have a loving husband. There are stories we talk about of women, who were abused by their husbands. If you're in a terrible marriage\u2014because your husband is a horrible, evil man, not loving you\u2014I can understand why this would be very appealing for you, as a woman, and why you would think men are the problem: \u201cI just need to get out from under them, and find my liberation and my independence; then, I'm going to be happy.\u201d \r\n\r\nWhat we really unpack in that chapter is that men aren't the ultimate problem. Sin is the ultimate problem. It's the sin in the man's heart. It's the sin in our hearts as women and us saying, \u201cTo heck with this; I'm going to do things my way.\u201d Again, we're not doing things God's way; we're not going to Him. We're doing things our way. And so until we, as men and women, recognize sin is the underlying issue\u2014that's the problem\u2014then no, we're never going to get to a better and happier place.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:33:30):\r\n\r\nWell, this reminds me of the story\u2014do you know what I'm thinking of when you hear that, Dave?\u2014\"Move over, dude; I've got this.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:33:37):\r\n\r\nI don't know; am I supposed to read your mind here?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:33:40):\r\n\r\nNo, I was thinking\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: I have no idea where you\u2019re going.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014that story would come to your mind too. We wrote about this; oh, it's so embarrassing. I don't know if you'll relate to this, Kristen. We were having friends come into town. Dave had booked a hotel, months and months prior to this.\r\n\r\nDave (00:33:58):\r\n\r\nIt's in her latest book.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:33:59):\r\n\r\nDave's on the phone with the hotel, making sure; because it's in a few days that they have the reservation, which was really smart of him to do, actually.\r\n\r\nDave (00:34:06):\r\n\r\nNo; they were at the hotel, and they said, \u201cThey don't have a reservation for us.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:10):\r\n\r\nI didn't know that!\r\n\r\nDave (00:34:11):\r\n\r\nThey called, and said, \u201cWe're standing here; there's no reservation. I'm like, \u201cYeah, there is.\u201d I got on the phone; and basically, the girl said, \u201cNo, you never booked it,\u201d\u2014which I did\u2014anyway, it wasn't booked.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:34:23):\r\n\r\nOh, no.\r\n\r\nDave (00:34:23):\r\n\r\nBut while I'm doing this\u2014literally, back on the corded phone, walking around the kitchen with this a 100-foot cord.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:34:29):\r\n\r\nYes, stretching around everything.\r\n\r\nDave (00:34:30):\r\n\r\nAnn is following me around: \u201cGive me the phone,\u201d \u201cGive me the phone,\u201d \u201cGive me the phone.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:33):\r\n\r\nI would say that: \u201cGive me the phone.\u201d \u201cGive it to me,\u201d\u2014whispering it.\r\n\r\nDave (00:34:34):\r\n\r\n\u201cIf you're not getting it done, I'll get it done.\u201d It was like,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cMove over, dude.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014\u201cMove over, dude.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:37):\r\n\r\n\u201cMove over, dude; I've got this.\u201d \r\n\r\nKristen: I relate to that.\r\n\r\nDave (00:34:39):\r\n\r\nI finally get so frustrated; I just throw the phone to the door: \u201cYou're not getting it.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:43):\r\n\r\nYou threw it on the ground.\r\n\r\nDave (00:34:45):\r\n\r\nAnd she picked it up, and she didn't get it either. Tell them what I said.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:50):\r\n\r\nHe threw the phone down, because I was like right on his shoulder: \u201cGive it to me,\u201d \u201cGive it to me.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:34:56): \r\n\r\nI just got exasperated.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:57):\r\n\r\n\u2014which he should have. It's embarrassing that I did this. I get on the phone\u2014and he throws the phone down on the ground\u2014and then, he says, \u201cWhy don't you just cut it off, Ann?\u201d Talk about\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (00:35:10):\r\n\r\nHe might have to edit that one out.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:35:12):\r\n\r\n\u2014emasculating him. I got on the phone, thinking, \u201cWell, okay, that was really bad; but I'll get the hotel room.\u201d I didn't\u2014the pride and the arrogance in that\u2014talk about repenting that night. Even if I did get the hotel room: \u201cWas it worth what I had just done today?\u201d \r\n\r\nKristen: No. \r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cMove over, dude; I've got this.\u201d What does it make him feel like?\u2014nothing.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (00:35:31):\r\n\r\nExactly, because that's what we're communicating: \u201cYou are incapable. Let me swoop in, as the superhero, and take this over so it can get done right.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: That's very much in our culture today.\r\n\r\nKristen: \u2014for sure.\r\n\r\nDave (00:35:45):\r\n\r\nWell, there's the other side of that though, like you're celebrating some of the power that women have, especially now that we've watched in sports. We watched a movie\u2014I don't know what it's called\u2014where women weren't allowed to swim in a pool. There's a story about this woman, who literally set records. I didn't even know this\u2014back in the \u201830s, they couldn't swim in a men's pool\u2014they didn't think they could swim or compete. And then, this one woman sets;and they're like, \u201cOh, they're gifted.\u201d There's women doing things, that you're like, \u201cThat's good. It's like you didn't think women could do it, and they're better than the men; so \u2018Move over, man; I got this.\u2019\u201d In some ways, there's always this line of truth: there's some good in that, but there's a lot of bad.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:36:26):\r\n\r\nWell, we're not saying women are incapable at all. Again, Ann and I are like, \u201cNo, we're very capable women.\u201d But something we say, again and again, in Girl Defined ministries and in Made to Be She is that God created men and women to be purposely different but equal in value. We are created to be equal in worth, but different in function.\r\n\r\nAnn: And both are really needed.\r\n\r\nKristen: \u2014100 percent, when we live out our God-defined roles with men, embracing godly masculinity, and women leaning into godly femininity. Just look at our bodies; we are so different\u2014not to mention our hormones, not to mention the way that women can give birth to children; have this natural inclination to nurture life\u2014there are very clear physical distinctions that we can see. Our society just erases those, and says, \u201cNo, those don't matter. There is nothing there to see. Men and women should do everything the same in every way, shape, or form. There are no distinctions.\u201d That has gone to the farthest end you can possibly take it, where men are saying: \u201cWell, I can be a woman if I just declare it.\u201d What does it mean to be a woman?\u2014our society can't define it anymore. So anybody who declares\u2014\"I'm a woman,\u201d\u2014can be a woman.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:37:37):\r\n\r\nWhat do you think the culture says?\u2014if they would say\u2014and you've heard this too\u2014if they say, \u201cWhat is a woman?\u201d What do you think they\u2019d say?\r\n\r\nKristen (00:37:45):\r\n\r\nI've seen what they say, and they don't say much. They basically say, \u201cWell, that's really hard to define.\u201d In fact, we looked up\u2014Cosmo magazine had some interviews they had done of women, asking the question: \u201cWhat does it mean to be a woman?\u201d\u2014there were six or eight different college-aged; and then, some young 20s\/30s working women. Their answers were so interesting. We write them\/we quote them in Made to Be She, because we just found it fascinating. \r\n\r\nEach one\/the essence of what they said\u2014they would start it off by saying: \u201cWell, to me, being a woman means that I'm\u2026\u201d\u2014and then, they would go to list maybe the attributes or character qualities of what they think it means to be a woman. For example, one of them said, \u201cTo me, being a woman means that I am strong, that I'm independent, that I know what I want; and that I go after it, that I don't give up.\u201d They\u2019re just kind of naming these characteristics. But at the end of the day, you're still left wondering, \u201cWell, what does it actually mean to be a woman?!\u201d \r\n\r\n(00:38:55) It's just interesting to see what society says\u2014because even a man could get on there; I don't know if they had any transgender men on in this article\u2014but a man could say, \u201cBeing a woman, to me, means that \u2018I am female, that I'm strong, that I'm independent.\u2019\u201d He could say all the same things; and the world would applaud him, and say, \u201cYay, you are a strong woman\u201d; but he's actually a man. It's very confusing.\r\n\r\nI think that's one of the enemy's great lies: if he can distort and confuse for all of us what it even means: the basics of what it means to be a man and a woman\u2014and the fact that there are even lines: male on the left; women on the right\u2014if he can blur those lines, and say, \u201cAnyone can cross over this line; it doesn't matter. You can go back and forth. It's whatever you believe it means for you.\u201d What have we ultimately lost? We have ultimately lost the picture that gender points back to\u2014which is the gospel: gender, as man and woman; we see this in Ephesians, that gender\/the marriage specifically is painting this incredible picture\u2014it's this visual representation of Christ and His church. Christ, as the groom, representing the male, pursuing His bride in this sacrificial, leadership-loving way; and then, the bride, who represents the woman, responding. She's responsive to His leadership\u2014she welcomes His leadership\u2014she wants it. Together\u2014the man and the woman living out those roles in marriage\u2014are pointing back to Christ and the church, pointing back to the gospel. \r\n\r\nIn our society, when we say: \u201cIt doesn't matter; anyone can be anything,\u201d I think our enemy is very crafty, because he is completely blurring that picture of the gospel. We're losing sight of what gender was, ultimately, meant to point back to. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:40:29):\r\n\r\nIf somebody asks you, as we're asking right now, \u201cWhat is it to be a biblical woman?\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (00:40:37):\r\n\r\nWell, we wrote a whole book, Made to Be She; it is hard to unpack it in one sentence. \r\n\r\nI would say a woman who knows that she is a child of God, first and foremost; a woman who knows she was created by her Creator. \r\n\r\nShe is made to be she\u2014not decided to be she, became a she\u2014she was made to be she. \r\n\r\nShe knows who her Creator is and that He has a good design for her, a good plan for her.\r\n\r\nShe knows she's a sinner in need of a Savior.\r\n\r\nShe's walking in the forgiveness and the redemption that her Savior provides for her.\r\n\r\nHer identity is not what her accomplishments are. It's not her season of life\u2014whether she's married, unmarried, single, divorced\u2014it's not her season of life. It's not her stage of life\u2014if she's working; she's inside the home; outside the home; in college; a high school girl; retired empty nester\u2014none of those things ultimately define her identity. She knows her identity is found\u2014and it's unchanging\u2014in being a daughter of God, the most high King, and that she is loved fully by Him, regardless of whether she's been abused; whether she's been greatly loved here on this earth, by a man, by a family. She is greatly loved by her Creator; she can firmly plant her identity in that. \r\n\r\nAnd then, from that place of knowing all of those beautiful truths\u2014about God's plan, and love, and redemptive story for her through the cross\u2014then she can step into: \u201cOkay, what does it look like to actually live this out, being a woman who's defined by these beautiful truths from God's Word?\u201d \r\n\r\nWe can see that in Proverbs 31, these beautiful characteristics of a woman who loves her family, who values her family, who respects her husband. You can see her priorities: She's a hardworking woman. She works hard for the good of her family\u2014not to get a great name for herself, not to look accomplished in the world's eyes, not just to make money\u2014she works hard for the good of her family. We see that in Proverbs 31. \r\n\r\nAnd then, we can jump over to Titus 2 and see this beautiful list of these character qualities\u2014these attributes, essentially\u2014that women are called to walk in. I recommend all women and men listening to go check out Titus 2. You can see what older women are called to teach younger women. The emphasis in this passage is so much centered on the home that women today struggle with valuing the home, finding worth in God's design for the family, and seeing that as a valuable pursuit and calling; and dare I even say \u201ccareer, to be a full-time homemaker.\r\n\r\n(00:43:20) We see, in Titus 2, this beautiful layout of a woman values her children, her husband; she's a keeper of the home. We see this call for older women to teach younger women to value these things, right there and then. I'm not even going to get into Genesis 1 and 2\u2014we can\u2014there's God's creation: how He created Adam first and then Eve second, and the roles that He gave Adam before Eve ever even entered the scene. We see beautiful distinctions between the man and the woman, and roles laid right out there in Genesis, which we fully unpack in Made to Be She. \r\n\r\nThat was a long answer; that was a short question.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:43:55):\r\n\r\nI'm so impressed with your answer. I'm also thinking, as a mom: \u201cIf you have a daughter, that's discipleship: teaching her those truths.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen: Absolutely. \r\n\r\nAnn: That's what every little girl needs to hear. I even say it to our grandkids\u2014all of them; all seven\u2014I'll say, \u201cI'm so glad that God made you to be a boy,\u201d or \u201c\u2026a girl.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (00:44:18):\r\n\r\nAnd that's so good that you're affirming that.\r\n\r\nAnn: I am looking at your title\u2014Made to Be She\u2014\"He made you\u201d; and then, I'll say, \u201cfor a reason. He purposely made you like that.\u201d \r\n\r\nWhat you just described, which was\u2014wasn't that well-done?\r\n\r\nDave (00:44:33):\r\n\r\nYeah, it was excellent. In my head, I'm hearing women push back when they\u2014\r\n\r\nKristen (00:44:41):\r\n\r\nYou're playing the devil's advocate over here.\r\n\r\nDave (00:44:43):\r\n\r\n\u2014when they push back against that. You've heard all\/you get emails on Girl Defined.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:44:49):\r\n\r\nAnd you talk about it in the book.\r\n\r\nDave (00:44:50):\r\n\r\nOr talking about this\u2014they're growing up in\u2014you start the book with this whole mindset of the world saying, \u201cThis, and this, and this\u201d; and they're thinking, \u201cBut that [the Bible] was written to women in the Bible times, who were [submissive]; they didn't have a voice. Of course, their role is in the home. It's a different world today\u2014so that's one option\u2014but isn't the only option.\u201d How do you speak? These aren't just women who aren't in the church; these are women in our churches, saying, \u201cI've grown up in a different day, and God's given me power. You're telling me to surrender that power to my man?\u201d Again, I'm playing devil's advocate.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:45:27):\r\n\r\nNo, those are good questions. I would say, \u201cNo, you're not surrendering your power to your man. He's a sinner, just like you are, surrendering to God, ultimately.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:45:36):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s what I would say too.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:45:36):\r\n\r\nYou are entrusting your design, as a woman\u2014you are acknowledging\u2014\"God, You are God; I am not. Your ways are better than my ways. What I can see is only a glimpse of Your ultimate plan. In fact, my life, as a Christian, isn't about my own glory and even my own happiness; but ultimately, about making Your name great. If Your path for me includes hardship\u2014even suffering, even letting go of some of my dreams\u2014to pursue what I know You're calling me to\u2014what is faithful in this season of my life\u2014then God, I'm willing to lay those dreams down at the altar, and say, \u2018Lord, I give these back as an offering and a gift to You. I trust You with Your plan. I know that You have my good in mind\u2014which doesn't mean easy, but means my good\u2014for making me more like Christ, for sanctifying me, for growing me.\u201d\r\n\r\n(00:46:30) Marriage will do that for you; having children will do that for you. We are, as Christians, we are called to lay down our life in so many ways, which just means we're sacrificing\/we're letting go. I love to use this visual of just open palms, facing upward: \u201cWomen, just say\u201d\u2014open your hands, and say\u2014\u201c\u2019Lord, what is Your will and plan for me? Your will be done, not mine,\u2019\u201d\u2014the words of Jesus right before He went to the cross. I think of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and her beautiful words back to the angel [announcing she would have a child], where she said, \u201cLet it be done to me according to Your will.\u201d \r\n\r\nI think we have lost that. The feminist movement has really pushed this mindset of pride and autonomy in a way that says: \u201cI don't need anyone. I don't even need God; I can figure this out for myself. I am all that I need.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Why do we say that?\r\n\r\nKristen (00:47:17):\r\n\r\nThat is not the Christian's way.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014it's from protection. I used to say those exact words. Why?\u2014it's to protect myself, because I don't want to depend on anybody else; because they'll let me down. If they let me down\u2014if they back up\u2014it's probably because I'm unworthy. It's a protective shell is what you're saying.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:47:37):\r\n\r\nWe have to acknowledge that. I think it's good to acknowledge: \u201cWhy am I responding in this way?\u201d\r\n\r\nOne of the questions we ask in Made to Be She: \u201cWhere has your view of womanhood come from? What has shaped it over the years?\u201d I can look back on my life. I can see some beautiful ways that my view of womanhood was shaped by my mom, who's a very godly woman\u2014so grateful for her and the influence in my life\u2014church-shaped in some wonderful, beautiful ways. And then, also, some other extracurricular\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014biblical ideas, that were not necessarily rooted in God's Word, that were\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: Let's go!\r\n\r\nKristen (00:48:13):\r\n\r\nOkay, let's hit some of those.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:48:15):\r\n\r\nBecause we\u2019ve gone through this side of the culture, the world. Now, let's hear this other side of\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014of the church.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014the hurts of the church.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:48:25):\r\n\r\nWe have the ditch of feminist womanhood; we unpacked. Now, we're going to unpack the ditch of Christian womanhood, essentially. One of the lies\u2014I'll just speak real personally\u2014growing up: conservative family; so grateful for my parents' discipleship in so many ways\u2014but there were some very strong Christian movements that were taking place during my teen years.\r\n\r\nDave (00:48:45):\r\n\r\nYou're not going to mention purity culture.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:48:47):\r\n\r\nPurity culture, as it's been coined\u2014I'm not all about that name\u2014I still believe, as the Bible teaches, that purity matters. I don't think it's a word we necessarily have to throw out because of how it's been used. We see it used in God's Word, so we can trust Him and His plan for purity as being a good thing. \r\n\r\nBut I think there were some messages in purity culture that\u2014I don't believe it was intentional\u2014but I believe the emphasis was really rebounding from the hippie culture: free love, sex all around. After the introduction of the birth control pill, specifically, abortion became legal. Women were really of this mindset: \u201cWell, now the playing field is equal, sexually, because I can do whatever I want. With abortion and birth control pill in my hip pocket, there are no repercussions anymore. I can have sex on demand like men can, and there are no more consequences.\u201d That was another movement of the feminist era, just kind of shaping women in these ways.\r\n\r\n(00:49:41) The purity movement, I think, was coming off of a lot of that\u2014rightfully so\u2014saying, \u201cWhoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Actually, no; purity matters. Saving sex for marriage is actually a biblical thing. We need to slow down, people. We need to think about this.\u201d I think what happened is it became so emphasized\u2014as these movements often do, as you respond to something\u2014you tend to go really strong in the other direction. The era that I grew up in very much was the purity rings; I think there can still be a place for those. \r\n\r\nI think what happened, with a lot of women\u2014and I even see in my own heart\u2014was this idea that to be a good godly Christian woman, I needed to have a certain set of standards that were\u2014yes, from God's Word\u2014but also a lot of extra details added on. For example, I did wear a purity ring when I was in high school; I had committed to saving sex for marriage. I was like, \u201cI want to go the extra mile. I'm not even going to kiss anyone until I get married,\u201d\u2014which I'm still very thankful for. I didn't kiss anyone until my husband on our wedding day\u2014I cherish that; it's beautiful\u2014but my heart wasn't always in a great place. \r\n\r\nAs a Christian woman, I remember in some ways even taking pride in my purity, and thinking, \u201cWow, I am\/what an example I am. Look at me living this pure life,\u201d\u2014while, at the same time, wrestling with inner struggles of lust and sexual thoughts, and not feeling like I could be honest about those, because I've got my purity ring; I'm supposed to be this pure example. There are young women\u2014\"I have younger sisters; they're looking up to me,\u201d\u2014so being honest about my struggles was very hard. That became true for so many women of the purity era of my generation, who had their purity rings. They looked the part on the outside\u2014and in many ways, they were walking this fine line of standards\u2014but inwardly, we're really struggling; and outwardly, we're even prideful in our purity. \r\n\r\nThat's not God's heart for women. His heart is not that we would become pharisaical, by doing the right things with a heart that is very self-focused. There's little of: \"God, would You be glorified? Help me to pursue You in this. Give me humility; give me grace. Lord, I need You.\u201d It was more of like: \u201cYou got to do this. Pull your boots up and make it happen,\u201d\u2014which is interesting\u2014I'm hearing a little bit of the feminist movement. It's like the feminists had this same idea of: \u201cGirl, you got to make it happen for yourself.\u201d In some ways, even in Christian culture, that mindset was happening, but from a spiritualized standpoint. We thought we are so godly; when really, we were just trying to make this godliness happen for ourselves, without relying on Christ. So that's one of the ditches that I know, I for sure, fell into; I know a lot of women did. \r\n\r\nLater on in life, the Lord graciously opened my eyes to see that there was a lot of repenting in my own heart. I have since talked very openly and honestly about purity. When we talk about it\u2014even in this book and at Girl Defined\u2014we say: \u201cIt is from a heart that longs to glorify God, and longs to walk in His way. It\u2019s not just an outward action to do the right thing, but coming from a heart that's seeking the Lord.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:52:46):\r\n\r\nDo you think that parents\u2014like your parents\u2014and Dave and I raised our kids under the purity culture; that was the time. Do you think there's any place for us, as parents, to apologize to our kids for maybe pushing that on them in a negative kind of way?\u2014because it was negative. There were some great things about it, as you said, but the focus became the wrong focus.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:53:11):\r\n\r\nI don't know if that was true for everybody. \r\n\r\nAnn: I'm sure it wasn't. \r\n\r\nKristen: I think each set of parents\u2014conversations I've had with my mom, specifically, I've expressed gratitude\u2014\"I am thankful for a lot of the ways that you raised us to give us a foundation of understanding these things\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014or even raising the bar.\r\n\r\nKristen: \u2014\"to say, \u2018No, there's a better way; God has a better plan.\u2019\u201d I think that we are each responsible for our own selves. I even told my mom this; I said, \u201cYou didn't necessarily push me toward pride. I did that in my own heart. I was the one who was like, \u2018Oh, I am pure. I am godly. Oh, I am a great example. Wow, look at all these young women, looking up to me. Oh, I'm such a great leader.\u2019 You didn't instill that in me; that was my own sinful flesh.\u201d I think we have to recognize, even as parents, who were asking that question.\r\n\r\n(00:54:04) We all have sin; it's not just one-sided. I would say having a conversation for any parents listening, thinking, \u201cI wonder how my kids are thinking about that,\u201d\u2014have a conversation\u2014just say, \u201cHey, we've been thinking about this a lot. We realize that, although purity is a good and biblical thing, that there may have been such an emphasis that you felt like that was your primary identity.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cHow did it affect you?\u201d \r\n\r\nKristen: Asking questions and just opening up the conversation; I think that could be very valuable. \r\n\r\nI know there are, sadly, a lot of movements even happening now\u2014deconstruction\u2014a lot of young people leaving the faith altogether. They just felt like things were shoved down their throat. They were forced to live a certain way, dress a certain way\u2014whatever it may be for them\u2014and so they're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. They're just cutting off their parents altogether. I think that's tragic. I think so many parents were well-intentioned. They were embracing\u2014they were also rebounding, coming off of that era of the \u201870s\/\u201980s \u2014and they wanted good for their children. I would just encourage children and parents: \u201cHave grace toward one another. Have an open conversation; and just recognize: \u2018In our hearts, we wanted to do the right thing. Sure, we may have gone off trail a little bit; but let's have a conversation about it.\u2019\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Yeah, that's good.\r\n\r\nDave (00:55:19):\r\n\r\nI wonder\u2014even thinking of this purity movement from a man's side and a woman's side; I don\u2019t how it hit us as men different than women\u2014but you look back now, and you think, \u201cIsn't it interesting that the focus was primarily, if not exclusively, on sex and kissing?\u201d\u2014and anything in that area. There was no thought of purity with your language, with your thoughts, with the way you treated people. This one area that we highlighted\u2014I don't know how it affected women\u2014but it affected us, as men, thinking, \u201cI can't even look at a woman. I can't appreciate anything about her.\u201d I'm supposed to basically walk around with a blinder.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:56:02):\r\n\r\n\u2014the blinders on.\r\n\r\nDave (00:56:04):\r\n\r\nAnd some of that's good; especially, if you're a married man: you don't look at women. But you know what I'm saying?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:56:10):\r\n\r\nI haven't thought about that.\r\n\r\nDave (00:56:11):\r\n\r\nYeah, it's a different world.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:56:13):\r\n\r\nWe've actually talked to some men, who have felt that way\u2014who felt like they, as men, in their\u2014we have to remember that sexuality\/our sexual design is God-given. When He made us to be she; made him to be he, that included our sexual design. That wasn't Hollywood's idea; that came from the Lord. It's a good and beautiful thing to have this sexual attraction, to have men and women in their masculine beauty and feminine beauty\u2014God's design\u2014it's beautiful. \r\n\r\nBut there were men we talked to, who said: \u201cThis idea of purity: \u2018Don't look at a woman,\u2019 \u2018Don't look at any woman, ever,\u2019 \u2018Don't lust; guard your eyes. You see something; bounce.\u2019\u201d It was so emphasized to the point that they didn't even know how to interact with women in a respectful, God-honoring way. They didn't even know how to do that; they were so fearful.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:57:03):\r\n\r\n\u2014almost paranoid.\r\n\r\nKristen (00:57:04):\r\n\r\nSo afraid; yes, of stumbling in some way that it crippled them to know how to have healthy God-honoring interactions. So I think it can go too far.\r\n\r\nDave (00:57:12):\r\n\r\nYeah, that's exactly what I was saying. I remember, when I Kissed Dating Goodbye came out, I had this reaction\u2014I didn't say it from the pulpit; I was pastoring then\u2014but I remember thinking it, with my boys. It's like I wanted to write a book called \u201cI Kissed Dating \u2018Hello.\u2019\u201d \r\n\r\nKristen (00:57:28):\r\n\r\nYou just wanted to write that and come out with it, right on the heels.\r\n\r\nDave (00:57:30):\r\n\r\nYeah; it wasn't that I think dating is biblical. I just thought, \u201cIf you never ever have dinner with a girl, as a young man, you don't know how to interact. You don't know how to have a conversation.\u201d It's like there's some good things that happen\u2014you can stay pure; you can have a great friendship\u2014and learn how to have conversations, and date, and how to treat a woman. If you've never done that, it's like, \u201cWow, you're putting a lot of stake on this; better be perfect.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (00:57:58):\r\n\r\nYou meet them, and they better be the one. And now, your first kiss is at the altar.\r\n\r\nDave (00:58:02):\r\n\r\nIt isn\u2019t \u201cI Kissed Dating \u2018Hello\u2019; but there is an aspect\u2014again, It was my perspective; and nobody was saying that\u2014it was like, \u201cOh, no; you're supposed to not date.\u201d What was the word they used? You didn't date; you\u2014\r\n\r\nKristen (00:58:16):\r\n\r\n\u2014courtship.\r\n\r\nDave: Courtship was the only way you could do it.\r\n\r\nKristen: My husband and I\u2014we would've said we were courting\u2014it's an old-fashioned word, which I think is kind of sweet. I think there's some good things. I think the idea of intentionally dating\u2014this is a whole other conversation\u2014but dating with purpose\/dating with intentionality really matters. As Christians, we should be intentional in everything we do, for God's glory; for the good of the other\/considering the other as we're dating. \r\n\r\n(00:58:44) But yes\u2014100 percent agree with you there, Dave\u2014in fact, our son\u2019s now\/we have a 15-year-old. He's not really talking about dating; but of course, crushes. He's very open; \u201cOh, Mom, I've got this new crush.\u201d I'm like, \u201cOkay, tell me about her.\u201d We'll have conversations, and I think it's sweet. But I am always looking for little angles to try to disciple his heart or steer his heart; I say, \u201cGod made attraction a beautiful thing. The fact that you're attracted to her is God's design. She's a beautiful woman; God made her beautiful. He made you handsome. Those are good things. But the timing isn't right now for you guys to do anything serious. What God's good plan for you, right now, would be that you just have a friendship, that you talk to her, that you just engage in conversation. You have fun in groups and learn how to be a good friend. That is where your focus should be now.\u201d He's like, \u201cOh, yeah. Well, I talked to her,\u201d\u2014he's so excited if he says one thing. I think that is what I think a lot of young people, in the purity era, missed: \u201cIt's okay to recognize, \u2018I'm attracted\u2019. It's okay to acknowledge, \u2018I have a sexual design.\u2019\u201d It's actually: \u201cWe need to disciple. If we're not as the church\u2014as Christian families\u2014discipling that, where are they going to get it from?\u201d\r\n\r\n(00:59:47) \u201cWhere's it going to come from?\u201d\u2014it's going to come from the world, and it's not going to be built on God's truth\/built on His Word. Even at a young age, my 11-year-old is, of course, copying big brother\u2014like, \u201cOh; well, I have a crush too.\u201d I'm like, \u201cWell, I think my first crush was at like nine; so yeah, I can relate.\u201d But just, even at a young age, shaping their hearts: calling out the good of that attraction; but then, reminding them: \u201cIt's not the right time. What can we do though?\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: That's good.\r\n\r\nKristen: \u2014\"we can be friends; we can interact.\u201d I think it starts at a young age.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:00:14):\r\n\r\nLet's hit some more ditches. \r\n\r\nKristen (01:00:16):\r\n\r\nOoh, let's hit them!\r\n\r\nAnn (01:00:17):\r\n\r\nWe hit the purity culture ditch of the other side. What else?\r\n\r\nKristen (01:00:21):\r\n\r\nOoh, okay\u2014purity culture; that was a big one\u2014the purity culture: saving sex for marriage. I think there was another ditch that I definitely fell into; it's the ditch of Christian conservative movements. I want to be careful how I say this\u2014but really elevating the role of being a wife and a mom so high\u2014that, for many Christian women, it became the only option\/the only calling that they could have. \r\n\r\nNow, I obviously firmly believe that motherhood and marriage is a beautiful role. \r\n\r\nAnn: We just talked about that.\r\n\r\nKristen: \u2014a beautiful calling. But what happens to the woman\u2014who is 30, single\u2014and isn't sure if she's ever going to get married? Where does her identity come from? Where's her purpose come from? That's what was happening in my generation. There were so many women who weren't getting married when they thought; and they were, suddenly, having this. \r\n\r\nAnn (01:01:16):\r\n\r\nThey're still there.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:01:17):\r\n\r\nAnd there are still many women in that place\u2014their 30s; their 40s\u2014and they're going, \u201cI'm about to not be able to have kids; I'm not even married. This is not at all what I thought how my life would turn out. But I was told that being a mom and a wife is the most amazing, beautiful calling that a woman could ever have. So if I'm not going to have that, am I less than? Am I not a complete woman? Am I not a whole woman?\u201d \r\n\r\nThat is something that I had to wrestle with on a very personal level\u2014not on the marriage front; I got married at 24\u2014I am from a big family, eight kids. I just thought, \u201cOh, my mom had multiple home births.\u201d We called her the birthing pro: \u201cThis lady can just make it happen,\u201d\u2014no epidurals; all natural\u2014she really was a professional birther. \r\n\r\n(01:01:58) I thought, \u201cI'm going to have it easy. I come from a big family; no problem.\u201d Year 1 and 2\u2014I have two miscarriages and no kids to show for it\u20143, 4, 5, 6; all the way up to 10 years of infertility. Another miscarriage around year 8; doctors couldn't figure out what the problem was; no answers. \r\n\r\nI'm sitting there: \u201cThis was my plan. I was going to get married,\u201d\u2014I married the man of my dreams\u2014\"We were going to have a family. I wanted to have a big family. And now, I've been married for a decade; and I don't have any kids. Who am I?\u201d This wasn't just at ten years; this was a wrestle I had throughout the entire process\u2014of going to God's Word, crying out\u2014holding this desire for motherhood, this good and beautiful gift we see in Scripture\u2014but holding it up, and saying, \u201cGod, is this not what You have for me? You call this a good thing. Why aren't You giving me this?\u201d Having to surrender that, and then, to say, \u201cWho am I, as a woman\/a married woman without kids? What is my identity?\u201d It was like an identity crisis for me.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:02:59):\r\n\r\nI bet.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:02:59):\r\n\r\nI had to go to God's Word. Those things that I shared earlier\u2014about: \u201cI am, first and foremost, a child of God. I am a sinner redeemed by the grace of my Savior. My calling in life is to glorify my Creator and reflect Him, whether I ever have kids or not.\u201d That calling is not going to change, even if I have kids; that's still my primary calling. I had to go through a lot of dark hard valleys of God working on my heart; changing my heart; uprooting that lie that motherhood was the only most beautiful calling that a woman could have. Really coming to a place of surrender; and then, learning to pour out: \u201cHow can I disciple young women? How can I pour into young women, who aren't my children; but they're women God has brought into my life? That became my focus. That's part of what started Girl Defined was this desire to pour into young women.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:03:50):\r\n\r\nWould Girl Defined even have begun, had you had kids right away?\r\n\r\nKristen (01:03:52):\r\n\r\nI don't think so. \r\n\r\nAnn: Interesting. \r\n\r\nKristen: I really don't think so; because we founded it right around the time I got married, probably shortly after. If I had had kids, I think that would've been my focus\u2014it's a wonderful, beautiful focus\u2014it would've taken up most of my time. I don't think Girl Defined would've happened. Hindsight, of course, I'm like, \u201cI see God's hand in this. I see His hand in Girl Defined.\u201d \r\n\r\nMy sister has her own journey; didn't get married until 30\u2014same thing\u2014wrestling with this identity crisis of: \u201cI've been told my whole life that marriage and motherhood are the most beautiful calling; but now, I'm not even married. I might never get married. Who am I?\u201d That is another ditch that I think women, when you elevate even a biblical thing\u2014even purity, even marriage, motherhood\u2014too high on an altar, to where it becomes an idol, that's where you're going wrong. You're taking a good gift, and you're turning it into the thing that you almost worship, the thing you have to have in order to be full, to be whole. That's what God\u2014He never intended for those things to be our all, to be our identity\u2014but if He calls you into a season of marriage or motherhood; and you enter that; then, you say, \u201cOkay, now I'm in this season. What does it look like to be faithful in this now?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (01:05:04):\r\n\r\nMan, I'm just thinking about that\u2014thinking, even after you do get married, it's easy to make your marriage an idol\u2014 \r\n\r\nKristen: Absolutely. \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014thinking my husband should make me happy. Even, when you do have kids\u2014those two things are two of my greatest temptations to become idols\u2014because you love your kids so much; you don't want them to experience pain. You can elevate them to the point that they'd come before God too. I remember saying to the Detroit Lions wives, whom I discipled for years: \u201cIf you had to give Jesus everything, and you're surrendering everything to Him\u2014there's nothing you're holding back\u2014what is the thing that's the last thing in your hands that you don't want to surrender to Him?\u201d They said, \u201cOur kids\/my kids.\u201d I said, \u201cWhy don't you want to surrender your kids?\u201d They said, \u201cBecause He might allow something bad to happen.\u201d I know; I felt that. Even then, what does that say about God? We don't know\u2014but it's true\u2014those things are really hard to surrender.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:06:05):\r\n\r\nWell, one thing that encouraged me so much in that was I had seen a quote from another author; she said, \u201cThe things that we long for most are the very things that God wants to use to draw us closer to Him.\u201d That is so true; is it not? In any season of life, that thing where you're like: \u201cIf I could just have this,\u201d\u2014that's the tension point; that is the place in your heart\u2014you can go immediately, and say, \u201cAm I seeking the Lord fully, or am I relying on getting this thing in order to make me happy\/to be my satisfaction?\u201d \r\n\r\nFor me, it was absolutely having kids for so many years. In fact, my sister, Bethany\u2014who's not with us here today, who wrote Made to Be She with me\u2014asked me a very pointed question; and I'm grateful for this. It's a question I think only a sister could ask a sister\u2014in the midst of my infertility, in the midst of my struggle\u2014very graciously. She and I had had so many conversations over the years about this\u2014and her wanting to get married and me wanting kids\u2014she just said, \u201cIf God never gives you kids, do you think He could be enough for you?\u201d It was like I gave her the very Christian answer; I just said, \u201cOf course, He's enough. Absolutely; He's my all in all.\u201d \r\n\r\nI went away; really, that question stuck with me. I was lying in bed that night, thinking, \u201cGod, if You never give me kids, are You enough?\u201d I had to get really honest with myself, 2 in the morning, laying there in the dark. My true answer was: \u201cHe wasn't enough for me,\u201d in that place that I was at. He wasn't; I really had fallen into the ditch of believing I had to have kids to be happy, to be a complete woman, to have a satisfied life. That, for me, was the turning point, where God really uprooted idolatry in my heart of a good thing\u2014but still idolatry\u2014and helped me see that, ultimately, He could be. He could be my all in all; He could be.\r\n\r\nDave (01:08:04):\r\n\r\nDo you feel like\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (01:08:05):\r\n\r\nThat is such a good question! I feel like every listener\u2014and we should even talk about that\u2014\"What is the one thing that you think: \u2018If I could just have this\u2026\u2019?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:08:13):\r\n\r\nWell, here's what I was thinking when you said that: \u201cI think it's going to be different for men and women.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:08:18):\r\n\r\nTotally; of course.\r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, what\u2019s yours?!\r\n\r\nDave (01:08:21):\r\n\r\nIt's different for every man. \r\n\r\nAnn: I want to know what yours is; I already know it.\r\n\r\nDave (01:08:24):\r\n\r\nI think a lot of men would say, \u201cSuccess: career success, money success, reputation success,\u201d\u2014whatever. It's like: \u201cI'm driving toward this. If I never get it,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (01:08:31):\r\n\r\n\u2014financial success.\r\n\r\nDave (01:08:33):\r\n\r\n\u2014\u201cis He enough?\u201d \r\n\r\nI wonder if a lot of women would say, \u201cRelationship,\u201d\u2014whether it's your kids or your\u2014I think we've talked about this many times: \u201cIf your marriage is never going to be satisfying for you, as a woman, is Jesus enough?\u201d You're lying there at 2:00 am\u2014and it isn't the kids: \u201cI love my kids; they're great\u201d; \"I don't like this man; I thought I would. He doesn't love me like I thought I would be loved, and I'm never really going to get loved. I don't think this man is going to do it.\u201d\r\n\r\n Kristen (01:09:01):\r\n\r\n\u201cIs Jesus enough?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:09:02):\r\n\r\n\u201cAm I going to be okay?\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:09:03):\r\n\r\nIt's hard; it's a heart question that pierces the depths of our souls. \r\n\r\nAnn (01:09:08):\r\n\r\nYou know what mine is? It's such a great question; it's very convicting. I'm rolling it around in my head right now. Mine would be: \u201cMy greatest desire now is that my kids and my grandkids would all walk with Jesus and love Him with their whole hearts,\u201d which is this great; it's a great\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: That's good aspiration. \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014aspiration or prayer; it's really a prayer. But what I can do, as a mom\u2014and when the kids were in the house, I can become controlling: making them be spiritual, or making them memorize their verses, or pushing it so much then, when they became adults\u2014it's that desire to continue to control that area, which I have no power in that. It's this really good dream of what I'd like\u2014and it's a prayer that I pray continually\u2014but it can also become an idol that I can become controlling instead of surrendering to the Father.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:10:07):\r\n\r\nI love how you mentioned prayer, because I think that is the antidote\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:10:09):\r\n\r\n\u2014when we are in that place at 2:00 am. We're wrestling; we're struggling with this thing that isn't happening. We fill in the blank for whoever's listening\u2014\u201cThis is the thing I must have in order to be happy\u2026\u201d\u2014we can take that, and say:\r\n\r\n\u201cLord, You are a good Father. You are good, and You do good, as the Psalms say. \u2018Do I actually believe that about You?\u2019 And if I do, then I can trust You; because a good father is trustworthy. I can trust Your timing for my life; I can trust Your plan for my life. I can trust that You are withholding this thing for a greater reason that I can't see, but I know You're going to work through it if I seek You and pursue You. \r\n\r\nUltimately, Lord, I know that without this, You are enough; You can be enough. Lord, help me to pursue You in a way that is more wholehearted. Help me to lay down this desire in this unhelpful, this unholy way,\u201d \u2014really, if it's idolatry, it is an unholy desire\u2014\"Lord, help me to surrender that.\u201d \r\n\r\n(01:11:11) It's taking it to the Lord in prayer again, and again, and again. It's not a one and done\u2014I wish it was!\u2014but it is again, and again, and again. Slowly, but surely, as we place our trust in Him\u2014that good, good Father\u2014He does a work in our hearts. When we seek Him in that way, He wants to meet us there. He met me there. I am telling you: I would've never said, when I got married, \u201cIf I never had kids, I could be happy,\u201d\u2014I would've said, \u201cNo way; there is no way that I could ever be happy and not have kids,\u201d\u2014God brought me to a place, before we adopted our boys and had our baby girl\u2014well, I still had no idea\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (01:11:44):\r\n\r\nWait; go back. Our listeners don't know you had a baby girl.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:11:46):\r\n\r\nWe did. We adopted two boys right after ten years of marriage. We had been saving money for a big ten-year anniversary trip. God totally redirected our paths and gave us this huge heart for adoption from International Adoption\u2014two older kids\/two older boys, who were siblings. We used all of the money for our ten-year anniversary toward our adoption. \r\n\r\nAnn: They were siblings. I didn\u2019t know they\u2019re siblings.\r\n\r\nKristen: They\u2019re siblings, yes; brothers. God gave me that prayer\u2014that dream, that cry of my heart for so many years\u2014He has now filled my house with children: two amazing boys. And then, yes, got pregnant with our baby girl two years later. So now, we've got a 15-year-old, 11-year-old, and a 1-year-old. I love it; I love it so much.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:12:28):\r\n\r\nWait; I just have to know this personally: tell me about when you realized you were pregnant.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:12:34):\r\n\r\nOkay; so full disclosure\u2014we were pursuing some fertility treatments\u2014it wasn't just completely out of the blue. I'm in my late 30s. We thought we would love to have more kids. The sweetest thing ever\u2014our two adopted sons kept asking me when I was going to have a baby\u2014now, they're adopted from Ukraine. They could only speak Russian when they moved in with us, and we couldn't speak Russian. We were using Google Translate, back and forth. About six months in, they could speak some English; they said, \u201cMama, when are you going to have a baby?\u201d All my sisters are having babies, all of our friends; and so they're like, \u201cWhen are you?\u201d It's like, \u201cHow do I answer this? They don't really understand; they don't know our story yet.\u201d I just said, \u201cIf God wants to give us a baby, He can.\u201d I said, \u201cYou can pray for that if you want.\u201d They said, \u201cOkay.\u201d They prayed every night before bed that God would give me a baby\/that He would give our family a baby. I'm in tears, every night, praying; I'm like, \u201cLord, this is too much. I thought I was done with this; I was surrendered.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: And now, you don't want them to be disappointed. \r\n\r\nKristen: I even said to my husband; [and I prayed], \u201cLord, if not for me, for them; give us a baby for them.\u201d They would pray every night. That was probably part of what influenced us. We were like: \u201cI'm getting older; let's just try. We'll try some fertility treatments. If they work, hallelujah, praise the Lord. If not, this is our family. We're so thankful and grateful.\u201d \r\n\r\nSure enough, God allowed them to work; I got pregnant with our baby girl. We told them at Christmas time; I was just about 12 weeks. They opened a little onesie that said, \u201cComing soon.\u201d They both just fell over with joy, laying on the floor, laughing: \u201cThis is the best\u201d; they were so excited. And now, they just adore her. They just carry her around and play with her, love her so much.\r\n\r\nAnn: After how many years? \r\n\r\nKristen: It was ten years before we adopted our boys. And then, 12 years\/13 years before I had my daughter. A lot of surrender\u2014a lot of learning\u2014learning that God is enough, even without giving me all the things I wanted, as a woman: beautiful gifts, a femininity\u2014bearing children\u2014all of that. But in the end, God was so gracious and so kind. I just give Him all the praise for that.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:14:41):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s amazing.\r\n\r\nDave: That's beautiful. \r\n\r\nOne of the things that you mention in the book is attributes of a man and a woman\u2014manhood, womanhood\u2014one of them: I even said to Ann last night about womanhood; I was like, \u201cOh, that's an interesting one: softness.\u201d Because even when we were talking a second ago about control, and making things happen\u2014there's part of a man and a woman; it's like, \u201cMake things happen; go for it. God wants you to initiate.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:15:12):\r\n\r\n\u201cGet her done!\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:15:13):\r\n\r\nAnd then, when I read \u201csoftness,\u201d I'm like, \u201cOh, that feels like no control.\u201d Ann, right away goes, \u201cOh, no; that's a great attribute of women.\u201d \r\n\r\nLet me list the six\u2014take any you want\u2014you talk about femininity; ability to produce life\u2014these are all attributes of womanhood\u2014softness; responsiveness toward godly leadership; relational connection; helping the man glorify God.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:15:38):\r\n\r\nThese attributes\u2014there's six attributes of manhood and six attributes of womanhood we unpack\u2014and we go straight to Genesis. We were like: \u201cWhat does God actually reveal through Adam, through Eve, in His order of creation and how He brought about the man and all of the details there. As you zoom in, Genesis 1 is like the flyover. And then, you get to Genesis 2; it's like zooming in on this picture, and unpacking the details of how God created Adam and Eve, and that whole process. We did not make these up; these were attributes we saw in Scripture, in Genesis 1 and 2; we're highlighting them. \r\n\r\nI find them fascinating. I think a lot of Christian women are like, \u201cWell, does God really have a lot to say about what it means to be a man and a woman?\u201d Well, Genesis 1 and 2\u2014most people want to read the whole Bible\u2014you don't get too far. Most of our Genesis wanted to a million times, and we miss it because it's easy to gloss over. We're like, \u201cThat's familiar.\u201d But you zoom into the details; and you see these attributes that God is pulling out in Adam in creating him first, and giving him order; giving him leadership over creation; giving him a job to name all of the animals. He actually created Adam outside of the garden, it says; and then, it says He brought him into the garden. It was almost like he was bringing Adam into the place that would then be his home for his new family. \r\n\r\nAdam is doing all of this before Eve even enters the scene. God gives Adam the instructions for the garden: \u201cThere's a tree; don't eat of it,\u201d \u201cHere's what you can do.\u201d All of those instructions happen before Eve even exists. Very interesting.\r\n\r\n(01:17:09) We see God doing something here. He's preparing the man to be a leader for his family\/to be the head of his family to take care of his family. He gives him the instructions. He's equipping Adam. He even gives him practice working, naming all the animals. \r\n\r\nThen we see that God takes\u2014and y'all know the story by heart\u2014most people do. But it's just so beautiful when you really ponder it. God taking a rib from Adam\u2014creating the woman in the garden\u2014by the way, she's made inside the home that she'll live in with her husband and her family. And then, we see this beautiful counterpart to Adam. She is different in her makeup\/in her biology. Adam is this man, with this testosterone surging through his body; different in his biological function. And then, we see this woman, who is also strong; but has this softness to her, these curves, this femininity. She's surging with estrogen, which each of these hormones drive the man and the woman in very different ways. Eve is made with a womb, a uterus. She has the capacity to conceive, to bear children, to bring forth new life and to nurture that life with her own body through breastfeeding. You just see these distinctions, and go, \u201cThere is nothing random about this. God is intentionally laying out this beautiful picture of manhood and womanhood right here.\u201d\r\n\r\nThe softness that we talk about, which a lot of women\u2014we even say, \u201cDon't throw this book across the room when you hear this word, because you're not going to like it!\u201d\u2014but what it's getting at is this: a woman is strong in her resolve to follow God; she's strong for her family; strong in the ways that she serves others\/that bless others; that lead her family in the way she's called to nurture her children and lead them. But there's this internal softness\u2014this softness of spirit, this gentle and quiet spirit\u2014doesn't mean that she's a mouse, that she can't speak, that she has no opinions.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:19:05):\r\n\r\nIt doesn't mean she's quiet.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:19:07):\r\n\r\nNo, it doesn't mean her volume. I have a very loud voice. My husband, in restaurants\u2014he does this visual cue, where he pretends to turn me down\u2014he's like, \u201cHoney, honey, honey.\u201d It doesn't mean she's quiet in volume; but that she has this inner peace, this inner trust in the Lord for who she is. As a result of that, there is this softness in her demeanor, in her character, in her\u2014it can even be in her words, where she is soft and responsive toward her husband's leadership, where she welcomes his opinion, his input\u2014she might even seek it out. There is this softness that can only come from the Lord, because Genesis 3 quickly reveals that sin entered the scene. This beautiful design was quickly distorted with our sin; and we were pit against one another\u2014battle of the sexes\u2014it started in Genesis 3, where the woman would have this sinful desire to rule over and dominate her husband; so that softness would not be there naturally. \r\n\r\nThis inclination to be responsive is something we see in Eve\u2014God giving her to her husband, and saying to Adam, \u201cHere's your woman\u201d; [Adam], \u201cShe shall be called Eve.\u201d And then, we see later in Ephesians that beautiful role of being a helpmate, of coming alongside the man\u2014and that beautiful partnership\u2014not as a less-than partner, but an equally-valuable partner, with a different role. That softness is actually a beautiful quality that God wants to cultivate in women, that we would have that peaceful, gentle response. That does not come naturally to me! That is the work that God continues to do in my heart, to create a softness in my heart toward my husband and my children. \r\n\r\nAnn: What do you think of that, Dave?\r\n\r\nDave (01:20:51):\r\n\r\nOh, I think that's beautiful.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:20:52):\r\n\r\nHe's like, \u201cMore of that, please!\u201d \r\n\r\nDave (01:20:54):\r\n\r\nThat is the tension\u2014in the sin nature of Genesis 3 and beyond\u2014your desire to be for your husband, but he will rule over you. There's this fight that's everlasting until we're standing before Him in glory. That'll be a tension in every relationship, especially in marriage. \r\n\r\nWhen I read \u201csoftness,\u201d I'm like, \u201cShe is not soft.\u201d \r\n\r\nKristen: But would you say her spirit is soft?\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014the way you just defined it, yes. You have a tender heart toward God, and toward me; and it's a beautiful thing. So that's the right word.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:21:32):\r\n\r\nIt's taken time though, too, because of the culture that I was raised in. In fact, I told Dave, as I was reading your book, because you have a chapter called \u201cThe Cosmo Girl.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:21:43):\r\n\r\nYes; \u201cSeduced by the Cosmo Girl.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (01:21:46):\r\n\r\nI told Dave: \u201cI can remember being 12 years old; I can remember where I was in Florida with my grandparents and my mom on vacation. There was a Cosmo magazine in this bookstore. I bought it, and I read that thing, cover to cover, in 1972; and that shaped me. There's this part of me that's like, \u201cI'm going to be strong. I'm going to have my own sexual,\u201d\u2014I didn't grow up in the church at all. Women being strong, dominant, independent, and sexual\u2014all those things\u2014set me on this path for that. \r\n\r\nAs I got into marriage, as a new believer\u2014not understanding the Word, but also wanting to protect myself and not lose that independence\u2014I don't think I wanted to be soft at all: \u201cThat seems weak to me.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:22:37):\r\n\r\nYes, softness is equated with weakness. That is so much of what the feminist movement pushed women to be strong: \u201cYou must never, never, ever give into anything or never lay down your opinion for someone else. Never sacrifice.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:22:50):\r\n\r\n\u201cNever.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:22:50):\r\n\r\n\u201cThat is weakness.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:22:51):\r\n\r\n\u2014especially, your husband. \r\n\r\nKristen (01:22:53):\r\n\r\nOh, especially your husband.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:22:55):\r\n\r\nIt's taken me years to embrace the softness. And even now, I'm getting older; I had Dave open my water bottle. I would have never done that in my younger years; because I thought, \u201cI'm strong.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:23:10):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s because she fell out of the bed\u2014 \r\n\r\nAnn: I didn't fall! Stop saying this!\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014on our vacation and hit her thumb. She didn't see a step; she's stepping out of the bed.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:23:19):\r\n\r\nI was\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (01:23:19):\r\n\r\nShe missed a step. She thinks she broke her thumb.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:23:22):\r\n\r\n\u2014a lounger bed. \r\n\r\nKristen: No!\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014not in bed.\r\n\r\nDave (01:23:24):\r\n\r\nSo she's not weak that way; she just can't use her thumb anymore. I'm like, \u201cMaybe, we should go to a doctor.\u201d \u201c Oh, no; I'm not going to a doctor. I don't have time to go to a doctor.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (01:23:32):\r\n\r\n\u201cI don't have time to go to the doctor.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:23:33):\r\n\r\n\u201cWho has time for the doctor?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (01:23:35):\r\n\r\nBut do you see the pridefulness that I had\/the arrogance that \u201cI will be strong. I'll be as strong as you.\u201d Now, I'm like: \u201cYou're so much stronger than me,\u201d \u201cYou're so capable,\u201d \u201cI love your opinion.\u201d My pride and arrogance didn't allow me to really go into those places; it's embarrassing to say that. \r\n\r\nKristen: I can relate. \r\n\r\nDave (01:23:55):\r\n\r\nAnd last thought in my mind\u2014when we're back in Genesis 1, 2, and 3\u2014think about this; I know it's not a new thought: \u201cWhen did Satan, the snake, tempt? He didn't tempt Adam alone; he didn't tempt Eve alone. He tempted them now, as a couple. So all those things that we just talked about\u2014this desire for power; this desire for control of the man\/of the woman\u2014is tempted in a relationship called marriage.\u201d \r\n\r\nYou step into marriage, and think, \u201cOh, this is going to be awesome. It\u2019s going to be wonderful,\u201d\u2014which it is.\r\n\r\nKristen: \u2014which it is.\r\n\r\nAnn: It is so wonderful.\r\n\r\nDave: It is all those things\u2014but there will be a battle that is uniquely significant to the marriage relationship\u2014it's a battle without marriage\u2014but when you say: \u201cTwo become one, and we're going to reflect to the world the love of God, the gospel, like Christ and the church\u2014Ephesians 5\u2014there's an enemy, who\u2019s going to say, \u201cI will not let that happen. This battle for control is going to be a part of that relationship.\u201d It's in the garden\u2014it's going to be in every garden, in every bedroom, every family room, every kitchen\u2014it's going to be there every single day if we don't understand our unique design, by God, as husband, as wife, as man and woman\u2014that helps when you understand that\u2014that softness. And a man needs to be soft too, in a different way.\r\n\r\nKristen: There\u2019s a tenderness.\r\n\r\nDave: Soft toward the will of God in my marriage\u2014and yet, strong in my leadership. It's always going to be a challenge; but beautiful, when done the way God wants, it reveals Him to the world.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:25:27):\r\n\r\n\u2014by His strength. There is no way I could ever even desire to want to embrace godly womanhood without God changing my heart. It goes against so much of my sinful, and just natural personality, my leadership strengths. There is just so much, where I just want to say, \u201cMove over, dude; I've got this.\u201d I have to fight it all the time. \r\n\r\nAnn: Me too, Kristen. Me too. \r\n\r\nKristen: Now, there are areas my husband\u2014he's like, \u201cBabe, will you just take this on in our family? Will you be the one who plans all of our vacations and details?\u201d I love that kind of stuff; I feel like I'm good at it; he's not as gifted. There are things we divide and conquer in marriage. That's wonderful and beautiful to use your strengths in ways that bless the family. But it has to be from the right heart\u2014not: \u201cI've got this; I'm more capable. My identity is found in me being strong, and I cannot be weak,\u201d\u2014it's in doing it for the good, as a family, honoring God.\r\n\r\nDave (01:26:19):\r\n\r\nHere's a whole other thought\u2014I don't want to take us down another thing\u2014we've talked a long time. But here's the other side of this, from the man\u2019s side. \u201cMove over, dude; I've got this,\u201d\u2014there's a passivity in us, as men, where we do move over; and we say, \u201cAlright; go ahead.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:26:34):\r\n\r\n\u201cOkay, ladies; take it from here!\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:26:37):\r\n\r\nA lot of women will. There's part of me that wants to say to us, as a man: \u201cGuys, step up. No, there are parts you shouldn't move over; you're called to lead. You're called to be the head. You're called to bring spiritual leadership into the home. You're called to be gentle and soft in all those ways; but you are also called, not to move over.\u201d You usurp [your leadership] and say, \u201cOkay, I don't want to lead this family; you go ahead.\u201d It's like, \u201cNo, you lead together; but you need to lead, guys. Don't move over,\u201d\u2014not in a bad way\u2014\r\n\r\nKristen (01:27:03):\r\n\r\nRight; I know what you\u2019re saying.\r\n\r\nDave (01:27:03):\r\n\r\n\u2014like this control thing. \r\n\r\nAnn (01:27:05):\r\n\r\nI think you've done that. \r\n\r\nDave (01:27:06):\r\n\r\n\u201cDon\u2019t be passive.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (01:27:06):\r\n\r\nYou've done that beautifully. I think I was so strong and domineering that I pushed you out of the way; and you're like, \u201cAlright, go ahead.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen: \u201cShe wants it that bad\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014\u201ctake it.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: But now, you've walked in; and I feel like, especially being married to someone strong,\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (01:27:21):\r\n\r\nBut there are times where we, as men, are passive.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:27:24):\r\n\r\nI'm saying you are not any; I don't think you are.\r\n\r\nDave (01:27:27):\r\n\r\nThere are times where she'll pray; I'm just going to go, \u201cGo ahead.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen: Just be honest: confession. \r\n\r\nDave: She'll have a conversation with the grandkids about God. I'll just watch rather than: \u201cNo, step in there. Be the man and be what God's called me to be.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:27:41):\r\n\r\nYou're doing some self-talk here.\r\n\r\nDave (01:27:43):\r\n\r\nYeah, I'm talking to every guy out there who\u2019s done that. \r\n\r\nKristen (01:27:45):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s an ongoing struggle for the men to step up and lead for the women. Isn't it interesting?\u2014Ann, I know you relate to this\u2014we want our husbands to be strong leaders. We want them to take initiative, to have opinions, to have direction and vision for our families. And then, yet, we sabotage that without even realizing that.\r\n\r\nDave (01:28:04):\r\n\r\nI\u2019m going to say, \u201cWhen we do that, then you push back.\u201d\r\n\r\nKristen (01:28:07):\r\n\r\nWe bulldoze them over!\r\n\r\nDave (01:28:07):\r\n\r\n\u201cI\u2019m doing what you just told me to do! I\u2019m leading right now, and you're yelling at me and telling me not to.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: That\u2019s why I just wrote that book! \r\n\r\nDave: I guess.\r\n\r\nAnn: How to Speak Life to Your Husband When All You Want to Do Is Yell at Him.\r\n\r\nDave: \u201cI just did what you wanted; but now you don't want me to do it because you are.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (01:28:20):\r\n\r\nOkay. So here's the book, Made to Be She: Reclaiming God's Plan for Fearless Femininity. You know what I love, too, Kristen?\r\n\r\nDave (01:28:29):\r\n\r\nYou love that it\u2019s pink.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:28:30):\r\n\r\nI do like that; it's kind of a stinky salmon. \r\n\r\nI love that there's a study guide after each chapter,\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (01:28:36):\r\n\r\nYeah, that's good.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:28:37):\r\n\r\n\u2014so you can do it in a small group.\r\n\r\nKristen (01:28:39):\r\n\r\nAbsolutely. In a small group\u2014with a couple ladies, or a small group at church\u2014or even by yourself; if you're like, \u201cI do not understand God's design as much as I thought I did. I need something to dig in.\u201d I benefit greatly from being able to reflect on what I read, and process, and answer questions, and just think about things; so we included it at the end of every chapter for the women, like me, who need that time to process; or to do it in a group with a small group of believers.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:29:03):\r\n\r\nAnd you may push back on some of the things; that's okay. But to have the discussion\u2014to go into the Bible to see what it says\u2014is really important. \r\n\r\nKristen: Absolutely. \r\n\r\nAnn: This has been fun. \r\n\r\nAnn: Hey, thanks for watching. If you liked this episode,\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (01:29:18):\r\n\r\nYou better like it.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:29:18):\r\n\r\n\u2014just hit that \u201cLike\u201d button.\r\n\r\nDave (01:29:20):\r\n\r\nAnd we'd like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the \u201cSubscribe\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\nI can't say the word, \u201csubscribe\u201d\u2014hit the \u201cSubscribe\u201d button. I don't think I can say this \r\n\r\nword! \r\n\r\nAnn: I can: \u201csubscribe.\u201d \r\n\r\nDave: Look at that! You say it so easily. \u201cSubscribe\u201d; there he goes!\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife.com                                 \r\n\r\n\n","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/317220","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=317220"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/312569"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=317220"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=317220"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=317220"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=317220"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=317220"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=317220"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}