{"id":317211,"date":"2025-09-04T04:47:22","date_gmt":"2025-09-04T08:47:22","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/how-the-gospel-transforms-your-marriage-and-overcomes-fear-brant-hansen\/"},"modified":"2025-09-04T04:47:23","modified_gmt":"2025-09-04T08:47:23","slug":"how-the-gospel-transforms-your-marriage-and-overcomes-fear-brant-hansen","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-the-gospel-transforms-your-marriage-and-overcomes-fear-brant-hansen\/","title":{"rendered":"How the Gospel Transforms Your Marriage and Overcomes Fear | Brant Hansen"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>In this episode of the FamilyLife Today Podcast, Christian radio host Brant Hansen redefines the gospel as a transformative way of life that frees you from fear, anxiety, and shame. He shares powerful stories from a maximum-security prison and discusses how practical discipleship\u2014like forgiving in traffic\u2014can revolutionize your daily life. Then, Dave and Ann Wilson share a powerful story of Ann&#8217;s heart crisis, revealing five lessons on trust and prayer that strengthened their marriage.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In this episode of the FamilyLife Today Podcast, Christian radio host Brant Hansen redefines the gospel as a transformative way of life that frees you from fear, anxiety, and shame.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":312569,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/3432e912-3606-4e8e-8a5e-b3440148d4a1\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"01:00:18","filesize":"55.24M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822,2860],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[3634],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-317211","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","category-hardship-and-suffering","cwp_profile-brant-hansen","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2025\/02\/image_bbee74.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/317211\/how-the-gospel-transforms-your-marriage-and-overcomes-fear-brant-hansen","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/317211\/how-the-gospel-transforms-your-marriage-and-overcomes-fear-brant-hansen","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"1Eg2Xv0fXg\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-the-gospel-transforms-your-marriage-and-overcomes-fear-brant-hansen\/\">How the Gospel Transforms Your Marriage and Overcomes Fear | Brant Hansen<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-the-gospel-transforms-your-marriage-and-overcomes-fear-brant-hansen\/embed\/#?secret=1Eg2Xv0fXg\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;How the Gospel Transforms Your Marriage and Overcomes Fear | Brant Hansen&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"1Eg2Xv0fXg\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["3432e912-3606-4e8e-8a5e-b3440148d4a1"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/3432e912-3606-4e8e-8a5e-b3440148d4a1\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["01:00:18"],"filesize":["55.24M"],"_thumbnail_id":["312569"],"show_notes":["\n<ul>\n<li>Visit Brant's website <a href=\"https:\/\/branthansen.com\/\">branthansen.com<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Connect with Brant on <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/branthansen\/\">Instgram<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/branthansenpage\">Facebook<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-09-04.pdf"],"transcript_content":["\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nWho Wouldn\u2019t Want to follow THAT Jesus?\r\n\r\nGuest: Brant Hansen\r\n\r\nRelease Date: September 4, 2025\r\n\r\nBrant (00:00:00):\r\n\r\nThe fact that we get to spend [eternity], after we die, with God is incredible; it's part of the gospel. Jesus talked about the gospel being: \u201cThe kingdom is now available to you. It's now open for business; it's here,\u201d\u2014that's the good news\u2014\"You can step into this way of life now\u201d; and there's a cost to it. But here's what I was telling these guys: \u201cThe cost of not doing it is higher.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:00:29):\r\n\r\nAlright. Are you excited? We got Brant Hansen back in the studio.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:00:32):\r\n\r\nIt is always a good day when Brant is here.\r\n\r\nBrant: Oh, you guys.\r\n\r\nDave (00:00:35):\r\n\r\nWe feel that way about you, Brant. \r\n\r\nBrant: Thank you! \r\n\r\nDave: And we do not say that about everybody. \r\n\r\nBrant: Thank you. \r\n\r\nDave: I hope they're not listening right now. All the rest of you are just not at the level Brant Hansen is. We can sing songs. We could put this interview on pause and sing songs from the \u201860s, \u201870s, \u201880s for probably an hour or two hours. We did that one time at your place. \r\n\r\nBrant: Absolutely; yeah.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:00:58):\r\n\r\nWe did it on the cruise ship too.\r\n\r\nDave (00:00:59):\r\n\r\nOh, yeah; that's right. Nobody on the cruise knows; we went to their\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:02):\r\n\r\nAnd your wife, Carolyn, man, she knows the parts,\u2014\r\n\r\nBrant (00:01:05):\r\n\r\nShe can\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:06):\r\n\r\n\u2014every part.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:01:07):\r\n\r\nWe enjoy doing that. I've learned piano recently, but we'll just sit there and do songs all the time.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:13):\r\n\r\nThis is a new thing?!\r\n\r\nBrant (00:01:14):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:15):\r\n\r\nThat's fun. \r\n\r\nDave: Of course, it is.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:01:16):\r\n\r\nI'm not bad at it\u2019 I'm good enough that we can have a good time together, as a married couple. When you're empty nesters, you can start learning other instruments.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:22):\r\n\r\nThat's true. \r\n\r\nDave: I\u2019m going to do that.\r\n\r\nAnn: I don't. You do know piano.\r\n\r\nDave (00:01:25):\r\n\r\nI can get away with it; I need to learn the left hand.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:28):\r\n\r\nHave you taken lessons?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:01:29):\r\n\r\nTwo.\r\n\r\nDave: Two lessons?!\r\n\r\nBrant (00:01:31):\r\n\r\nThey were really good; they were good lessons. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:34):\r\n\r\nThey were good.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:01:35):\r\n\r\nWhat happens is you give up; and then, you're like, \u201cI just want to play it like I play guitar. You get a chord chart; and then, you go from there.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:01:41):\r\n\r\nI can do that.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:42):\r\n\r\nThat's how you play, with chords.\r\n\r\nDave (00:01:43):\r\n\r\nI play chord chart on the piano, but I don't really know what I'm doing. I need the left hand to\u2014anyway, why are we talking about this?! It\u2019s a waste of time.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:50):\r\n\r\nBecause Brant is just an interesting person. As we were having lunch today, Brant, you were talking to us about how you were invited to speak to a men's breakfast.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:02:00):\r\n\r\nI am really amped about this.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:02:04):\r\n\r\n\u2014the men's breakfast?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:02:06):\r\n\r\nSure, breakfast\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014dinner, lunch?\r\n\r\nBrant: \u2014I'm always amped. \r\n\r\nThey asked me to come speak at a businessman's breakfast. They asked me to share the gospel; and they said, \u201cWe've got a lot of guys, who are professionals; but they'll bring friends to this thing once a year.\u201d This was in New Jersey. They wondered if I'd come up and speak. I'm like, \u201cWell, sure.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:02:26):\r\n\r\nIt's like an outreach they do once a year to invite a lot of people to.\r\n\r\nDave (00:02:30):\r\n\r\n\u2014not CBMC?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:02:32):\r\n\r\nYes!\r\n\r\nDave (00:02:32):\r\n\r\nCBMC; I\u2019ve been to some of those.\r\n\r\nBrant: Christian Business Men\u2019s [Connection].\r\n\r\nBrant (00:02:35):\r\n\r\nIt was really nice of them to ask. My stress was: \u201cI'm not sure I'll do it right\u201d; because, honestly, when we talk about the gospel, a lot of times people have their own idea about what that is. I don't know that we always understand how big it is and how wonderful it is. And the other thing is you can ask people to pray a prayer; and then, \u201cHey, you get to go to heaven when you die.\u201d But that's not what I wanted to talk about. I think we're missing out on something; and that is, connecting to Jesus as our teacher. If it's just about \u201cI go to heaven when I die,\u201d I'm missing out on something.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:03:13):\r\n\r\n\u2014on that relationship piece.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:03:14):\r\n\r\nYes, which I'm convinced is a better way to live. We don't talk about that. So I was kind of wondering\u2014I was like, \u201cIs it okay if I do it this way?\u201d\u2014they're like, \u201cOkay, sure.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:03:24):\r\n\r\nSo how did you start it? What did it sound like to start it?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:03:27):\r\n\r\nI told them: \u201cThis is the best deal you're ever going to hear. It's like a pearl merchant, recognizing something so great that you're willing to cash it all in for this. You don't have to do anything\u2014God gives you free will\u2014you can decide; you can walk away. People walked away from Jesus.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:03:44):\r\n\r\nSo there's no pressure.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:03:45):\r\n\r\nNo pressure at all\u2014there was no emotional appeal; there's no music; there was no fog lights or whatever; there's no lasers\u2014it was just me laying out: \u201cHere's why the way of Jesus is actually better than not the way.\u201d I think this is really important for people to communicate, because it is. You just have to lay out why.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:04:08):\r\n\r\nSo Brant, as you're talking about this\u2014and I can't wait to hear where you're going\u2014but I'm just thinking of how we talk to our kids about this. It's not like, \u201cHey, just pray this prayer.\u201d You're saying, \u201cNo; it's way better than that.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:04:19):\r\n\r\n\u201cIt's way better.\u201d The fact that we get to spend [eternity], after we die, with God is incredible; it's part of the gospel. Jesus talked about the gospel being: \u201cThe kingdom is now available to you. It's now open for business; it's here,\u201d\u2014that's the good news\u2014\"You can step into this way of life now\u201d; and there's a cost to it. But here's what I was telling these guys: \u201cThe cost of not doing it is higher.\u201d Yeah, there's a cost; but the cost of not doing is higher. I just went down the list.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:04:53):\r\n\r\nTell us the list.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:04:54):\r\n\r\nWell, let's talk about fear of death. I'm not afraid of death because of who Jesus is, and my following Him, and learning His ways. I don't have to deal with that. Can you imagine living life, where you're not afraid?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:05:05):\r\n\r\nI'm sitting there\u2014you guys know this; because Dave, you did the same thing with 500 men\u2014is that a thing that we fear?\u2014death?\r\n\r\nDave (00:05:11):\r\n\r\nOh, everybody does. \r\n\r\nBrant: Yes, aging, death.\r\n\r\nDeath: I think it\u2019s universal.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:05:14):\r\n\r\nIt's women, too, for sure.\r\n\r\nDave (00:05:15):\r\n\r\nThe most manly, courageous, stud-dog man is afraid of death, like a little boy.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:05:21):\r\n\r\nThe biggest stud-dog man of all\u2014you're right. \r\n\r\nIt's funny to me because you can talk about being freed from it. Our whole culture's afraid of death; we can't even talk about it.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:05:35):\r\n\r\nAnd we don't.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:05:36):\r\n\r\nHow about not being afraid? I'm not afraid!\r\n\r\nDave (00:05:39):\r\n\r\nYou had other ones, and that's all I need right there.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:05:43):\r\n\r\nYou would think, right?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:05:44):\r\n\r\nYou said, \u201cI'm not afraid.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:05:46):\r\n\r\nI'm like, \u201cGuys, it's not because I'm a superhero. I'm obviously not at all; most of the guys in this room could beat me up. But imagine living a life where you're not\u2014and this is shifting into another problem\u2014our whole culture does not know how to handle anxiety; we're sick with anxiety. Imagine being the non-anxious presence in your neighborhood, in your home, where you're no longer nervous about anything.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:06:13):\r\n\r\nIt's funny, Brant, that you say that. Just a few weeks ago, I'm on a table, having this stent put in. I remember, right before, the doctor's, like, \u201cOkay, you ready?\u201d I said, \u201cYeah,\u201d and \u201cLord, will You bless his hands and what he's about to do?\u201d As I was on the table, I thought, \u201cWell, God, either You have more for me here; but if not, it's even better.\u201d There's no loss; it's Paul's words: \u201cTo live is Christ, to die is gain.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:06:41):\r\n\r\nIt's a win-win. It's: \u201cSurely, Your goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014all the days of my life.\r\n\r\nDave (00:06:46):\r\n\r\nI could say I was, out in the waiting room, praying the same thing\u2014I wasn't praying that\u2014I didn't want you to go.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:06:52):\r\n\r\nI didn't either. But I also know I don't have any control of that.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:06:55):\r\n\r\nHere's the thing\u2014we're all humans\u2014but we do become less anxious people by following Jesus and learning how relaxed He is in how He responds to things. He said He came to bring us a rich and satisfying life\u2014that's from John 10:10\u2014that doesn't start after you die; it's now. We actually have to learn His ways\u2014how to bless your enemies\u2014it's not just anxiety; how would you like to not be angry?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:07:27):\r\n\r\nWell, I'm just imagining. You've hit death, anxiety.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:07:31):\r\n\r\nI'm making a list right here. \r\n\r\nBrant: What?! Really. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:07:32):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:07:33):\r\n\r\nThese are things our culture has no way of handling. Jesus is a genius; He's the smartest man who ever lived. I use this example all the time\u2014and I've mentioned it with you before too\u2014but there are endocrinologists who tell us that anxiety and anger kill us. They have such a deleterious effect on our physiognomy. Here's Jesus, 2,000 years ago, modeling how we can live without it; because He loves us. It ages us; it makes us put on weight; it costs us in terms of our heart. There's all of these problems that come from our not knowing what to do with anxiety or anger. We're not equipped for this; Jesus gives us a way to do it.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:08:19):\r\n\r\nWhat do you think, in our culture\u2014people who have anxiety and\/or anger\u2014how are we coping with those without Christ?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:08:28):\r\n\r\nWe are not. That\u2019s just it. All the suggestions\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014escape.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:08:31):\r\n\r\n\u2014and numb out.\r\n\r\nDave (00:08:33):\r\n\r\n\u2014alcohol; you name it. \r\n\r\nBrant: Sure. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:08:36):\r\n\r\n[We\u2019re] hiding into something, because we can't deal with it\u2014you're saying.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:08:39):\r\n\r\nYes, our culture is bankrupt on this. If you read\u2014and I've read a lot\u2014it could be New York Times, The Atlantic, or whatever, they'll talk about our culture: \u201cEpidemic of Anxiety,\u201d \u201cEpidemic of Anger.\u201d What do you do? Well, you count to ten; you listen to some music; you\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:08:53):\r\n\r\n\u2014meditate.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:08:54):\r\n\r\nIt doesn't work. People are seething with anger, and it's ruining people's homes. \r\n\r\nJesus is talking about blessing those who curse you. He's talking about forgiving people out of gratitude that we have for being forgiven, because we've been forgiven; and what that looks like. On the Sermon on the Mount, He starts with anger when He's talking about how to live. It is the most fundamental human problem; He's giving us a way out of it.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:09:21):\r\n\r\nI'm thinking about the people listening right now; they're like: \u201cNo, you don't understand. I'm dealing with that right now; and I do have Jesus, and I am angry too. So how do I apply that eternity right now? What's that look like? How can I get out of that?\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:09:35):\r\n\r\nWell, if I'm trusting God with His justice, I have to hand that over to Him\u2014that is a very real thing\u2014I am not here to meet out all of justice in this world. \r\n\r\nThe other thing is, it really is going to kill you. It does not help if you're going to live with this. The point is: anger happens; it's like a warning light on a dashboard. We're told to get rid of it before the sun goes down. It's not a sin, in and of itself; but thinking we're entitled to it is a sin, because it'll destroy us. God actually loves us, so this is a way to freedom. If you're like, \u201cWell, I can't just let this go,\u201d well, then, you're going to be carrying it with you for the rest of your life. \r\n\r\nThis is what I'm telling these guys, too: \u201cLook, it's hard to forgive people, but it's way harder to live a life of bitterness.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:10:28):\r\n\r\nYou're saying, literally: \u201cIt'll kill you.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:10:29):\r\n\r\n\u201cIt'll kill you.\u201d You have to carry that around, and it torpedoes your family. It torpedoes your relationships. You're not living at peace. You don't have peace in your home, because you think you're entitled to carry this thing around. Jesus is saying, \u201cDon't do that.\u201d His way is smarter. Again, it's a better way to live! \r\n\r\nHe's a genius in every field; He knows. So when He's telling us to be like the birds of the air, well, animals don't carry anger around with them. They have a fight-or-flight response, but it's over quickly. They don't\u2014they're not borrowing trouble\u2014that could happen next month. Again, everything Jesus is telling us is a genius way to live that's actually lighter and better. I'm like, \u201cGuys, imagine laughing more, not being afraid, not being as threatened by people.\u201d And how about this?\u2014\"How about not being ashamed?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:11:23):\r\n\r\nOh, you're hitting all these biggies. All of us are dealing with all of these.\r\n\r\nDave (00:11:28):\r\n\r\nI'm writing down everything you're saying.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:11:30):\r\n\r\nNice; well, how about that? Is this a better way of life or not? We're all going to carry around shame. Look what God does with Adam. I use Adam as an example when I wrote about this in The Men We Need. He blows it; he's responsible for mass destruction. And when he blows it, God comes looking for him, and says, \u201cWhere'd you go? What happened to us? We used to walk together.\u201d And then, He clothes Adam. The clothes He puts on Adam and Eve are royal garments; the word is kuttoneth. It's not just primitive furs that He's putting on; these are royal robes. \r\n\r\n\u201cDo you know that God still wants to cover you?\u201d\u2014that's what I'm saying to guys\u2014\"He still wants to walk with you. He wants to partner with you in your business. Do you know that He\u2019s a great partner to have?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:12:24):\r\n\r\n\u2014no matter what you've done.\r\n\r\nBrant: \u2014no matter what. \r\n\r\nAnn: You're right: Adam's sin cost all of us. All of us are experiencing the consequences. And yet, God continued to pursue him; told him: \u201cCome out of hiding; I'm here.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:12:36):\r\n\r\n\u201cI'm here; I want to walk with you.\u201d Guys, you can walk with\u2014you don't have to\u2014He's not going to force you to love Him. That's the big experiment; isn't it? It seems like that's the thing in Job, where the enemy's like, \u201cYeah, you have to force these people to love You. You have to give them so much.\u201d \r\n\r\nWill we freely love Him? My answer is, \u201cYes.\u201d As I've studied Jesus' way of living\u2014not living in shame anymore, even though I am a sinner, present tense; everyone in this room is\u2014but He still wants to clothe you with royal garments. That's what He thinks of you. This is a better way to live, guys.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:13:17):\r\n\r\nIt's the gospel, and it doesn't even make sense.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:13:20):\r\n\r\nIt's so good.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:13:21):\r\n\r\nIt's so good!\r\n\r\nBrant (00:13:22):\r\n\r\nIt's so good. Jesus said, \u201cIf you understand it, you're going to go, \u2018I want that; I want that.\u2019\u201d Rarely, in church culture, I've noticed\u2014and I'm in Christian radio too\u2014rarely, in Christian radio, do we really unpack what the gospel of the kingdom actually is. The good news is here\u2014\"I have good news; look at all the good stuff,\u201d\u2014this isn't bad news. \r\n\r\nAnd just like we were talking about Psalm 23: the rest of your life, you get to grow in this. You get to become a rock for your family; you're a beacon of peace in your family. You have peace in your home. You're not threatened by other guys, like you used to be. You're not worried about tomorrow\u2014imagine that\u2014and then, when you die, you're stepping into the kingdom in its fullness.\r\n\r\nDave (00:14:16):\r\n\r\nI'm guessing 500 guys gave their life to Jesus that same day.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:14:19):\r\n\r\nWell, honestly, there were hundreds of guys who were believers. I think there were probably 150 guys who weren't. I think they told me that; they have these response cards afterward. They had 90 guys say, for the first time in their lives, \u201cI want this.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:14:33):\r\n\r\nCome on!\r\n\r\nBrant (00:14:34):\r\n\r\nWhat they do so well is they meet each week in small groups\u2014they disciple people\u2014so the gospel, as I'm explaining it, matches up to discipleship. It doesn't leave you hanging like, \u201cOkay, I said the thing. Now, I go to heaven when I die. Now what?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:14:51):\r\n\r\nNow, you get to learn the relationship piece.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:14:53):\r\n\r\nYes; \u201cHe\u2019s my Rabbi; He's my Teacher; I\u2019m going to learn from Him.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:14:55):\r\n\r\n\u201cI'm going to follow Him.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:14:56):\r\n\r\nYeah; \u201cI'm going to follow.\u201d Jesus is looking for followers.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:14:59):\r\n\r\nWhat do you guys think that means?\u2014to follow Jesus\u2014what's that look like, practically speaking?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:15:05):\r\n\r\nI think it's the stuff we're talking about.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:15:07):\r\n\r\nMe too.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:15:07):\r\n\r\nYou actually take what He says seriously. He even said to His disciples: \u201cGo out and make other disciples, teaching them to obey the things I've commanded you to do.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:15:18):\r\n\r\nThis is the thing: \u201cWhy does He say to obey?\u201d Because He loves them, and because He doesn't want them to experience the pain that comes from the consequences of our sin.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:15:26):\r\n\r\nTrue; that'll be: \u201cTeaching them to obey what I've said.\u201d He did say things about how to live. They're very practical; but unfortunately\u2014I feel like churches could, if they wanted, put a sign up that says: \u201cHey, Tuesday night at 7:00, we're going to teach you how to follow Jesus.\u201d It could be: \u201cHere's how to bless your enemies; how to bless people in traffic, who are cursing you.\u201d This is so practical; so doable, and it changes your heart. I've joked with you guys about this before: \u201cTraffic is forgiveness practice.\u201d The practice\u2014as you know in your athletic background, and for both of you\u2014you can do things that you couldn't do before because you trained. \r\n\r\nFollowing Jesus is the same thing. At first, you're like: \u201cI can't just say \u2018bless\u2026\u2019; I can't pray for blessings on some guy who just cut me off.\u201d You can; and when you do, and you make it a habit, it'll become second nature. You won't even react in the moment; you won't be throwing a fit like you used to, because now you're different. Why? You're learning the rhythm of life with Jesus; He's your Rabbi. You take your cues from Him: \u201cHow does He act? Okay, so I do want to bless people who curse me. I do want to forgive people, because I've been forgiven. Alright; I do want to pray for those who are out to get me.\u201d \r\n\r\nThis is a doable way of life. It turns out Jesus knows what He's talking about; it's the best way of life that is available. \u201cNow, do you want it?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:17:02):\r\n\r\nSo often, we think of following Jesus as: \u201cDo nots.\u201d So often, that's where the churches started: \u201cDo not curse,\u201d \u201cDo not have sex, outside [of marriage],\u201d \u201cDo not...\u201d\u2014which are all good things; you shouldn't. But we don't talk about what you just presented to those men. Who doesn't want that? \r\n\r\nBrant: \r\n\r\nBrant (00:17:30):\r\n\r\nWho doesn't want it? Why can\u2019t we present it that way?\u201d It\u2019s true.\r\n\r\nDave: If you follow Him, the \u201cDo nots\u201d will happen. Those desires are going to fall away. \r\n\r\nBrant: The Pharisees, were doing the \u201cDo nots,\u201d They're doing that way of life: \u201cDo not do this,\u201d \u201cDo not do that.\u201d Jesus is like, \u201cLook, clean the inside of the cup.\u201d \r\n\r\nHere's the thing: it gets easier when you become a different person. You become the type of person who now responds differently in the moment, because you've been doing this stuff; and it becomes more second nature. It's easier to do it. At first, you can't just speak German: \u201cI'm going to speak German now,\u201d\u2014I can't do that\u2014but I could become that person if I trained under a teacher. It's the same thing as I learn the ways of Jesus\u2014I put it into practice\u2014you become a different person. \r\n\r\nI told the guys: \u201cGuys, this is an easier way to live.\u201d In a lot of church culture, they're like, \u201cYou can't say that; it's harder,\u201d\u2014it's not\u2014Jesus said it's easier.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:18:19):\r\n\r\n\u201cMy yoke is easy.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:18:19):\r\n\r\nIt's lighter; He said so. Now, you do have to deny yourself, but it turns out that leads to a more easy way of life.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:18:28):\r\n\r\n\u2014and more freedom.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:18:29):\r\n\r\n\u2014more freedom, more freedom. So when somebody hits you, you're so free that they don't determine your next move. The natural human reaction is you hit back; but in the kingdom-way-of-life, it's not my natural reaction anymore: \u201cYou don't dictate my next move.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:18:45):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s so good.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:18:46):\r\n\r\nIt's so good; this is a better way of living.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:18:48):\r\n\r\nI'm just sitting here, thinking about myself as a parent with kids. When they were growing up\/teenagers\u2014as I'm talking about the gospel, and Scripture, and all of that\u2014I'm thinking, \u201cMan, I think maybe I'd present it in that way now.\u201d I think, before, we're so focused on: \u201cDo you know Jesus? Did you say the prayer?\u201d\u2014instead of saying\u2014\u201cAre you following Him?\u201d and \u201cDo you know how good it is to follow Him?\u201d\u2014those things. \r\n\r\nHow did you present that?\u2014you and Carolyn with the kids.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:19:18):\r\n\r\nWell, I'm learning as I go.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:19:21):\r\n\r\nAren\u2019t we all? I would be so much better now! \r\n\r\nBrant (00:19:22):\r\n\r\nWhat\u2019s cool is, as you're listening, if you're like, \u201cWell, I've never really thought about it this way,\u201d\u2014okay; that's cool. We're still learning, aren\u2019t we? \r\n\r\nAnn (00:19:29):\r\n\r\n\u2014always.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:19:30):\r\n\r\nWell, wait; if we're disciples, we're always in learner mode.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:19:32):\r\n\r\n\u2014always. \r\n\r\nDave: That\u2019s what it means.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:19:33):\r\n\r\nThat's not going to end. But the hard thing about is\u2014if we're not teaching this to people\u2014we're not teaching them to follow Jesus practically; we're actually making their lives harder.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:19:44):\r\n\r\nWhat do you mean?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:19:45):\r\n\r\nWe can be like, \u201cI want to make things convenient and cool,\u201d\u2014\"Hey, don't stress out about it. Just say the prayer; go to heaven.\u201d You're not teaching them this way of life that's actually easier. So now, they're stuck in these patterns and things. You haven't taught them.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:19:58):\r\n\r\nIt's like getting in a car; you don't know how to drive, like, \u201cHey, good luck!\u201d And they\u2019re crashing all over the place.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:20:03):\r\n\r\nThat makes it harder, doesn't it?\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes!\r\n\r\nBrant (00:20:05):\r\n\r\nWhen Jesus talks about the narrow way and the wide way, He doesn't say the wide way is actually easy. Now, there's a couple translations that throw that word in there\u2014but it's not in the Greek\u2014it's just \u201cnarrow\u201d and \u201cwide.\u201d He actually says the wide way leads to destruction, which does not sound easy to me. \r\n\r\nHe also talks about\u2014when He tells us how to live, and He wraps up the Sermon on the Mount with\u2014there's a guy who builds his house on the sand; a guy who builds his house on the rock. Well, it's hard to build a house, but who's got it easy now after the storm? This is not the hardest way to live\u2014this is a freeing way to live\u2014but it's a narrow way. Most will choose anything but Jesus. But the people who do find that door, they find that: \u201cWait, this is actually a lighter, easier yoke in life. Instead of worshiping somebody else, I will learn from Him.\u201d Again, He's a genius; He knows how to live; He made us. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:21:05):\r\n\r\nSo the person who\u2019s saying, \u201cI want that. I want to be discipled. I want to follow Jesus. I'm just going to church on Sundays, you guys. What does it look like to follow Him? How do I do that?\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:21:16):\r\n\r\nI hope they have relationships with people who are being discipled or that the church is actually discipling people. We tend to think of disciples as somebody, like, \u201cOh, you're getting really extreme with the whole Christian thing.\u201d That's not it at all. There's only one thing that is being a disciple or not.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:21:33):\r\n\r\nIt's a learner.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:21:35):\r\n\r\nI think that explains a lot of hypocrisy that we see, because people never stepped into this way of life. If they did, they wouldn't want to step out of it. My challenge, I guess, would be, from my perspective: \u201cI hope more of us believers begin to understand things this way.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:21:56):\r\n\r\nMe too.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:21:57):\r\n\r\nAnd then, it's easy to talk to people about this; and then, go, \u201cHey, are you interested in it?\u201d And then, \u201cWe can study Jesus stuff together. We can talk, practically, about how we can bless people who don't like us; or pray for people who hate us,\u201d and \u201cLet's live this out.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:22:11):\r\n\r\nI'm guessing you got invited to come back and do that again.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:22:15):\r\n\r\nI hope so. Yeah, they liked it. I love talking about this stuff, because I think it's so important. It's something we've been missing as a culture\u2014not everybody\u2014but it'd be nice to see this catch fire. \r\n\r\nAnn: Me too.\r\n\r\nDave (00:22:30):\r\n\r\nYour thoughts, Brant\u2014that's why we love you\u2014you're so fresh. \r\n\r\nBrant (00:22:34):\r\n\r\nWell, thanks!\r\n\r\nDave (00:22:35):\r\n\r\nYou come from a different angle that many people aren't thinking. I got to be honest\u2014I speak quite a bit at men's events\u2014I steal Brant Hansen stuff every time; I give you credit every time: \u201cLet me tell you what my friend, Brant Hansen, says: \u2018The keeper of the garden,\u2019\u201d\u2014the whole thing\u2014I'm not kidding.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:22:55):\r\n\r\nIt's so good.\r\n\r\nDave (00:22:56):\r\n\r\nEverywhere I go, people are like, \u201cThis is really fresh.\u201d I'm like, \u201cYeah, get the book.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:22:59):\r\n\r\nCool; thank you.\r\n\r\nDave (00:22:59):\r\n\r\nIf our listeners haven't\u2014or watchers, actually\u2014haven't read The Men We Need, which isn't what we're really talking about today\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:23:07):\r\n\r\nWell, this sounds like it's going to be a new book.\r\n\r\nDave (00:23:08):\r\n\r\n\u2014I'm just going to tell you it's in our show notes. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com\/Show Notes; there's a link there you can go to get the book.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:23:14):\r\n\r\nAnd when you have this new book\u2014have you started this?\u2014this is a whole new\u2014\r\n\r\nBrant (00:23:18):\r\n\r\nI have; I just started it.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:23:19):\r\n\r\nYou have. We\u2019ll have you back on when we\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: Does it have a title?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:23:21):\r\n\r\nI want to call it: \u201cThe Best Deal Ever.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:23:24):\r\n\r\nYeah, that's good.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:23:25):\r\n\r\nThanks. I haven't told my publisher that; so hopefully, they'll like it. We'll see. I really do think it's like the pearl and the treasure in the field; that's the kingdom!\r\n\r\nDave (00:23:38):\r\n\r\nBefore we continue, let me say this: at FamilyLife, we really believe strong families can change the world. When you become a FamilyLife Partner, you can make that happen.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:23:48):\r\n\r\nI don't know if you realize this: your monthly gift helps us equip marriages and families with biblical tools that they can count on.\r\n\r\nDave (00:23:57):\r\n\r\nThat's a pretty cool deal. We also want to send you exclusive updates, behind-the-scenes access, and an invitation to our private Partner community, which is also pretty cool. Join us, and let's reach marriages and families together.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:24:10):\r\n\r\nYou can go to FamilyLifeToday.com, and click the \u201cDonate\u201d button to join today; that\u2019s FamilyLifeToday.com. \r\n\r\nAnn: The idea of following Jesus\u2014I'm sitting here and thinking of our listeners right now\u2014I think that's what we're inviting them to do: \u201cWill you follow Him?\u201d Because you don't have to have the answers right away; the disciples didn't know everything; they're like, \u201cOkay, we'll follow You.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:24:34):\r\n\r\nTotally.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:24:34):\r\n\r\nAnd they just learned along the way.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:24:36):\r\n\r\nRight; isn't that great?\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:24:37):\r\n\r\nYou can invite somebody into that now.\r\n\r\nAnn: It takes pressure off.\r\n\r\nBrant: Right.\r\n\r\nDave (00:24:39):\r\n\r\nYou answer this: \u201cHow is following Jesus the best way to live in your marriage?\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:24:44):\r\n\r\nOh, goodness; that's a great question. Being a less-anxious person helps in the home, so I'll start with that. Just the peace that comes from that for both of us, personally. The forgiveness that becomes first nature as you practice this with your enemies at work, or on the road, or whatever\u2014you're praying for them\u2014it changes your demeanor. That becomes the default in the home.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:25:15):\r\n\r\nLess anger is always helpful.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:25:17):\r\n\r\nThere's this gentleness that we develop. There's a lack of neediness that comes over you, over time. This is a process.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:25:30):\r\n\r\nYou don't try to find your life through your spouse, because you have found it in following Jesus.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:25:36):\r\n\r\nYeah; it's like that's the peace thing\u2014regardless of circumstances, you're okay\u2014that takes a lot of the heat out of some of the need that gets sidetracked in our marriages. I think those are really practical things. \r\n\r\nI've decided long ago, I think as a process in this, but I actually want to be more polite with my wife inside the house than I'm with anybody else outside it; so that there's a gentleness. I\u2019m more gentle with her than I am with a stranger, instead of inverting it. A lot of times, that's what happens\u2014we treat other people with more respect than in our homes\u2014I want to invert that.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:26:23):\r\n\r\nWe just did a segment on that: \u201cWhy are we nicer to the people?\u201d\u2014just yesterday. \r\n\r\nDave (00:26:27):\r\n\r\nWho you are at home is who you really are\u2014that kind of thing. \r\n\r\nI do remember in college\u2014I gave my life to Christ in college\u2014prayed a prayer; chose to start following Christ. I remember one of the first things I noticed starting to change\u2014it didn't change immediately; but immediately, I noticed it\u2014it was, walking into that, I thought everything in my life is about\u2014guess what?\u2014me! I'm a college quarterback at the time, so I even get to go out on a field and all these people are looking at me! I realized, immediately, \u201cIt's not about me. In fact, it never has been. I'm supposed to consider others valuable, not me. I\u2019m not the most important person in the room; actually, other people are.\u201d Selfish to selfless was a big shift. \r\n\r\nBrant: It takes the pressure off. \r\n\r\nDave: That, obviously, applies in marriage.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:27:21):\r\n\r\nThinking about the pressure, when Christians would say in the early-going, \u201cJesus is Lord,\u201d\u2014that was a big deal\u2014it meant: \u201cJesus is Caesar; I\u2019ll tell you who Caesar is.\u201d That's a big deal\u2014but it also means: \u201c I'm not Caesar. If I say Jesus is Lord, I'm not Lord,\u201d\u2014well, that's a big relief.\r\n\r\nDave (00:27:48):\r\n\r\nAnd your marriage doesn't become about my spouse meeting my needs\u2014it's actually not\u2014it's irrelevant.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:27:54):\r\n\r\nThat the whole posture changes to: \u201cHow am I helping other people flourish?\u201d\u2014which is absolutely life-giving. But the neat thing is: this is something you can step into now, even if you never understood it this way. You can step into this now, and the people around you will benefit immediately. You'll grow from here. There'll be an immediate change in posture when you realize, \u201cWait a second. Okay, I'm going to bless my enemies.\u201d That may be the people in my home many times; they're the ones who are driving us crazy. This practice will change that.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:28:35):\r\n\r\nI think a lot of our listeners are probably followers\u2014and have been followers of Jesus\u2014but they haven't invited somebody to go on a journey with them to follow Jesus: \u201cHey, you want to follow Jesus with me?\u201d In terms of that's that discipleship piece: \u201cHey, you want to hang out and get coffee once a week? I can tell you how Jesus is changing me and how I'm failing, sometimes; but my purpose, my anxiety, my anger, my shame is all different. It's not overnight, but I'm changing.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:29:07):\r\n\r\nWell, it is such a neat thing to do with people too, because\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:29:11):\r\n\r\n\u2014it\u2019s ongoing. \r\n\r\nBrant (00:29:11):\r\n\r\nYou can practice this during the week, and get back and huddle: \u201cOkay, how did it go with your boss? You said you hated him, so you started praying for him. Now, how are you feeling about him?\u201d It's remarkable because you know, as soon as somebody starts praying for somebody that drives them crazy, your heart starts to turn towards that person. You're actually for them. Now, you're so full of blessing that, when somebody knocks into you, it just pours out instead of curses. That\u2019s fun to watch other people come alive like that, and you're on the journey with them. Jesus is our Teacher.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:29:49):\r\n\r\nWe're following Him together.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:29:50):\r\n\r\nWe're learning from Him and we're doing it. It's an exciting way to actually do this thing. \r\n\r\nDave (00:29:57):\r\n\r\nNow, we were talking to you earlier: you talked to 500 men at a breakfast; and then, you ended up in prison.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:30:05):\r\n\r\nHey, I was thinking we should call this whole thing: \u201cBrant Hansen's Adventures\u201d; because then he's like, \u201cWe were having lunch\u201d; and then, Brant says, \u201cOh, yeah, you know what I did?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:30:13):\r\n\r\nBill and Ted's Excellent Adventure: [This would be] \u201cBrant's Excellent Adventures\u201d\u2014whatever you want to call it.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:30:19):\r\n\r\n\u201c\u2026Misadventures.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: How did you end up in prison?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:30:20):\r\n\r\nYou used somebody's pickleball racket.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:30:24):\r\n\r\nThis is my new claim to fame. \r\n\r\nDave: \u2014paddle.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:30:25):\r\n\r\n\u2014paddle. \r\n\r\nDave: \u2014paddle.\r\n\r\nAnn: Sorry. \r\n\r\nDave: It's a paddle.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014pickleball paddle.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:30:28):\r\n\r\nI just used the Menendez brothers\u2019 pickleball paddles, which I did not see coming.\r\n\r\nDave (00:30:36):\r\n\r\nThat's a chapter title right there! What does that mean?\r\n\r\nAnn: For our listeners, who don\u2019t know who they are\u2014\r\n\r\nBrant (00:30:41):\r\n\r\nYeah, Erik and Lyle Menendez; they're in prison in Southern California\u2014I wound up in their yard\u2014it's a max-security prison. They do have a pickleball court, but we used their paddles. \r\n\r\nI got to speak at this prison because a friend of mine had an in there. It was about 200 guys. I talked for\u2014I did four separate hour-long sessions\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (00:31:07):\r\n\r\nReally? \r\n\r\nAnn: Wow!\r\n\r\nBrant (00:31:10):\r\n\r\n\u2014about anger and forgiveness. \r\n\r\nWhat was wild: I had a guy helping me with audio\/visual stuff\u2014super nice guy, really smart\u2014he was one of the prisoners. Another guy was helping me with another thing, organizationally, getting set up\/setting up chairs. We're laughing and talking about stuff.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:31:32):\r\n\r\nThese are all inmates\u2014\r\n\r\nBrant (00:31:33):\r\n\r\nYeah, all inmates. We're getting along great.\r\n\r\nDave (00:31:35):\r\n\r\n\u2014for life, right?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:31:37):\r\n\r\nThey're in for life?\u2014all of them.\r\n\r\nBrant: I went home after the first day\u2014and Googled\u2014the crimes are so unspeakable. It was like several of them had been subjects of True Crime podcasts and 48 Hours episodes; absolutely unbelievable crimes.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:32:05):\r\n\r\nWould you have ever guessed it?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:32:06):\r\n\r\nNo.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:32:06):\r\n\r\nNever.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:32:08):\r\n\r\nNo. You wind up thinking about stuff: \u201cHey, I'm not the guy\u201d\u2014anybody who knows me knows this\u2014\"but if you think of a guy, who can go in and talk to tough guys, you wouldn't pick me. I play the accordion; I play the flute, all that stuff.\u201d We've laughed about that. But the neat thing was, not having any tattoos and owning up to the fact that I'm a nerd, actually helped.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:32:36):\r\n\r\nWhy do you think?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:32:37):\r\n\r\nThey told me that they get used to people coming in and presenting; it's all about them. They felt like what I was doing was I was genuinely not trying to impress them. And that was quite true; I wasn't. I think not having any hope of impressing them\u2014I don't have a motorcycle; I can't say, \u201cYeah, I know what it's like to be on the streets,\u201d or whatever\u2014I'm from a small town in the Midwest. Our biggest disagreement was between the John Deere people and the International Harvester people. \r\n\r\nIt's daunting though. I was thinking about the grace of God. When I'm sharing with church people, it just comes easy. And then these guys\u2014what they've done\u2014wow! There's one guy, who was writing the whole time I was talking, just scribbling, scribbling, scribbling, scribbling. My friend asked, \u201cWhat are you doing?\u201d He's like, \u201cI'm sharing this with my wife. This is everything; this is gold.\u2019 He had murdered two people, strangers, when he was 14; it was just one of the most brutal random things. And then, the backstory for him is so horrible\u2014what he had gone through as a kid\u2014absolutely, that's what you would get with that sort of treatment that he went through.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:08):\r\n\r\n\u2014that would be the outcome.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:34:10):\r\n\r\nYeah. He's writing all this stuff down feverishly\u2014I don't know that he ever gets out of prison, and I don't even know how he met his wife\u2014but that's the story for all these guys. There were guys there, who were 70\/75 years old; they're never leaving that place\u2014guys with canes; guys in wheelchairs\u2014older guys have been there for years.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:32):\r\n\r\nMan, it's like: \u201cHow do you even\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: It's their life.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014\"live like that or have any kind of hope?\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:34:39):\r\n\r\nRight. What was neat, too, they had a church service. I'm just being honest here\u2014they had a band of inmates; and the equipment wasn't great; and they weren't the greatest at their instruments, per se; if you go to a mega church, they're not making it through the [auditions]; and the guy, who led the singing, was an older gentleman, who would turn and face the screen so that he could see the lyrics too\u2014it did not sound very professional. And that was the best worship service I have been to\u2014there was no polish\u2014but man, those guys were letting it out. Again, the hope of getting out is not happening for almost all these guys.\r\n\r\nDave (00:35:35):\r\n\r\nWhy was it so great?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:35:37):\r\n\r\nI don't know! I can tell you why, from my perspective, the singing was visceral.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:35:45):\r\n\r\nThey meant it; they needed it.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:35:48):\r\n\r\nRight. Every word in that, every song lyric\u2014\u201cBless the Lord, O my soul,\u201d \u201cThe sun comes up; it's a new day dawning,\u201d\u2014and then, there's all these men just belting it out.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:36:05):\r\n\r\nI'm just going to cry the whole time. \r\n\r\nBrant: Seriously.\r\n\r\nAnn: It's a picture of the gospel: they don't deserve it; neither do we. But they certainly don't, because that's what they feel too.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:36:15):\r\n\r\nI think that's why it was so great too. My friend and I\u2014his wife's a brilliant worship leader\u2014and we both know some musicians wo are well-known, blah, blah, blah. It occurred to us both: \u201cHey, we could get this guy\u2026\u201d \u201c\u2026that lady in here,\u201d or \u201c\u2026that worship band,\u201d\u2014and it dawned on us, simultaneously\u2014\u201cThat would ruin it.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:36:37):\r\n\r\nNo.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:36:39):\r\n\r\nThis isn't about polish. It\u2019s not like: \u201cNow, next week,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:36:42):\r\n\r\n\u2014\"that'll be way better.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:36:43):\r\n\r\n\u201cYeah, I remember: you guys aren't any good.\u201d It was a heart thing. \r\n\r\nAnd the neat thing was: I got to get up\u2014again, I'm talking about The Men We Need, the book\u2014I was talking about masculinity. A) Jesus leveled the moral playing field: \r\n\r\nI know what you guys did. You don't know that I'm as guilty. It's not as obvious\u2014I'm not wearing the uniform\u2014but Jesus levels the playing field. He's like, \u201cIf you've hated someone,\u201d\u2014some people have hated people, but they don't have the guts or the wherewithal to go through with it\u2014they just didn't do it. But Jesus said, \u201cYou're just as guilty,\u201d\u2014so none of us\u2014we're all here. \r\n\r\nThe remarkable thing, again, is that Adam is responsible for millions of deaths. God wanted to walk the rest of his days with him. When they left the garden, God did not kick them out; and then, said, \u201cGoodbye.\u201d He kicked them out and went with them after they blew it for all of humanity. He clothed them in royal garments. I want you guys to know that you are still in that relationship with Him if you want to partner with Him. \r\n\r\nMost of those guys who came to the church\u2014if not all, but most were believers\u2014but they still\/we all need to hear that; because we\u2019re all ashamed of ourselves, without this covering. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:38:32):\r\n\r\nI\u2019m just picturing them\u2014imagining what they've done\u2014but Jesus clothing them with royal garments. How contrary that must be to what they hear the enemy speaking to them of their horrible crimes.\r\n\r\nDave (00:38:50):\r\n\r\nI\u2019m sure they heard it from their dad. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:38:52):\r\n\r\nYeah; \u201cSurely, you are not worthy of eternal life; because you have blown it.\u201d I'm just thinking of the enemy, the accuser, constantly saying, \u201cYou don't deserve anything.\u201d And yet, Jesus clothing them and wanting to walk with them. It's so contrary to the world.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:39:11):\r\n\r\nAnd when you talk to people about it\u2014it's not like: \u201cYou need to know this\u201d; it's more like: \u201cLet's just look at this thing together: \u2018How in the world? I don't deserve that either; nobody out there does.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014nobody.\r\n\r\nBrant: And they know that too; they're like: \u201cThere's bad people out there too.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:39:31):\r\n\r\n\u201cThey may not be in here, but they're still\u2026\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:39:33):\r\n\r\nNone of us. But the whole\u2014instead of make a presentation\u2014I think having the posture of: \u201cLet's all just marvel at this together,\u201d\u2014is probably a good posture for any church service, anytime. But in that environment, it's especially poignant; and it's instructive to me. \r\n\r\nThen, you develop a heart\u2014and you know what?\u2014the people who do prison ministry: I've heard this from people who do prison ministry; and they're like, \u201cYeah, Brant, it's the best thing ever.\u201d They're so excited about it.\u201d I didn't get it until then; and I'm like, \u201cOkay; now, I get it.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:40:15):\r\n\r\nWhy? Why?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:40:16):\r\n\r\nBecause of the honesty and the desperation.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:40:20):\r\n\r\nWhat else do they have?!\r\n\r\nBrant (00:40:22):\r\n\r\nRight! And so the desire to learn\/the hunger to learn\u2014guys were there, who weren't believers\u2014they just wanted to learn. One guy's like, \u201cI'm not a Christian; I want to ask you about this: \u2018How do you handle this and that?\u2019\u201d I'm like, \u201cHey, I appreciate that; I'll answer this question.\u201d They're like, \u201cOkay, I want to learn the thing\/I want to learn Scripture.\u201d The believers who are there: there's a hunger to learn. \r\n\r\nI know this, too, from experience, and even looking at Scripture, we know this: \u201cDesperate wins\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014\u201calways.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant: \u2014\"every time.\u201d If somebody's more desperate to get to Jesus, then they go to the front of the line\u2014if they want to cut through the ceiling\u2014and everybody else is like, \u201cYou can\u2019t do that!\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:40:58):\r\n\r\n\u2014if you want to grab His robe, just a tassel.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:41:00):\r\n\r\nAbsolutely; there's a huge crowd. And there's an important guy who just asked Jesus to heal his daughter. And then, she's so desperate to get to him that, now, the guy has to wait. The crowd disappears from the scene; the crowd's not even mentioned again. He's just laser-focused on this woman, who shouldn't even be there; but she's desperate. Desperate wins! \r\n\r\nThere's this awareness of God being here that we can miss, I think. I get it now. I'm sorry\u2014all the prison ministry people, listening to this\u2014and you're like, \u201cYeah, we know; I've been doing this for 20 years.\u201d It's incredible; I understand now.\r\n\r\nDave (00:41:40):\r\n\r\nWell, we try to cover up desperate.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:41:43):\r\n\r\nTotally.\r\n\r\nDave (00:41:44):\r\n\r\nThat makes us look weak and frail, and we want to be strong. \u201cI'm not desperate. That guy's desperate, but not me.\u201d I feel the same way about Celebrate Recovery in churches. Whenever I walk in that room, I\u2019m like, \u201cI'm with the most honest people in our church.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:41:59):\r\n\r\nYes, I agree.\r\n\r\nDave (00:42:00):\r\n\r\nThey've been to the bottom. They're not hiding anymore; their addiction's out. And they're like, \u201cOkay, help.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:42:06):\r\n\r\nRecovery Church is a church network that's really taken off across the country; it's amazing. But it's all people coming from addictions.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:42:14):\r\n\r\nWell, I'm even thinking of our listeners, who are desperate\u2014because their kids are just struggling\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014or their marriage.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014or they've walked away from their marriage; or someone's sick\u2014it can feel like the worst place ever to be. It feels like that. I've been there; I understand that. But there's also such a neediness that you're on your face before God, and that's the beauty of that place: \u201cWe can\u2019t do it, Lord, apart from You.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:42:40):\r\n\r\nThat's a good place to be. My understanding in my life\u2014I keep reading the Bible and keep seeing the same thing, over and over\u2014He draws closer to you because of that; He's close to the brokenhearted. He stores your tears in a bottle. I call that: \u201cThe desperation just wins with Him.\u201d \r\n\r\nI think, if you are in that sort of a situation\u2014and this is what I experienced in Recovery Church\u2014I remember they're singing. The worship band is all people who have come out of addictions. They're not paid; there's no paid staff; it's amazing. But there's this incredible visceral gratitude in the room and desperation. When you sing\u2014\u201cMy chains are gone; I've been set free,\u201d\u2014literally, their hands are raised. You see people\u2014they're belting it out\u2014it's not just words; it's not just going through the motions; but that's understanding I have, from Scriptures: \u201cThat is a great place to be. He is closer to us than ever\u201d; so you've got a different place with Him. \r\n\r\nThe other thing I've learned, too, in praying is you do feel desperate for your kids or something like that. Tell God\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:43:56):\r\n\r\nTell God everything.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:43:58):\r\n\r\n\u2014with that intensity. I pray for needs; I'm like, \u201cGod, I need this for my kid adults.\u201d I have something in mind: I've seen You do this for other people. You can do this for him. I know you can.\u201d We're having it out, and I think that's okay.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:44:15):\r\n\r\nMe too; I do that a lot. He wants that relationship. If He's walking with me, I'm talking about it. That's what He's saying: \u201cI want to talk and walk with you all the time.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:44:27):\r\n\r\nI feel like the prison example was a great example of that. These people are at a point\u2014and the fact that even I, and I'm not the guy who senses God's presence easily, or I don't use those words very much; I'm kind of a robot\u2014even I, in that prison, I'm like, \u201cOkay, there's something\u2014 \r\n\r\nDave (00:44:51):\r\n\r\nReally?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:44:51):\r\n\r\nYeah;\u2014\"God's here with these guys; it's the desperation.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:44:58):\r\n\r\nI tell you what: when you're in a community\u2014and people are desperate, and they're passionate about the answer to their desperation\u2014the unchurched guy is drawn to that. It's not the polish he's drawn to; he's drawn to the passion.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:45:12):\r\n\r\nTotally.\r\n\r\nDave (00:45:13):\r\n\r\nHe's drawn to: \u201cWhat do you have? Why are you excited about this? I want to know this like you do.\u201d You know what I'm saying? \r\n\r\nBrant (00:45:22):\r\n\r\nThere's a Spurgeon quote\u2014I'm not going to get it exactly right\u2014it's: \u201cSet yourself on fire, and people will come from miles around to watch you burn.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:45:29):\r\n\r\n\u201c\u2026watch you burn.\u201d I love that quote!\r\n\r\nBrant (00:45:31):\r\n\r\nYeah, there really is something to that. There's something so compelling when you see it; and then, you wish it didn't take those kind of straits to get us to be that passionate about how we've been forgiven, how good that is. I kind of want to live in that each day; I think it's doable. I think you learn more and more.\r\n\r\nDave (00:45:55):\r\n\r\nIf we could only get as excited about Jesus as we do our favorite team's touchdown. \r\n\r\nBrant (00:46:02):\r\n\r\nYou know what? I think we can. \r\n\r\nDave: I know. \r\n\r\nBrant: Our identity is wrapped up with our team. As our identity gets wrapped up with being a follower of Jesus, actually, you do get more excited about it.\r\n\r\nDave (00:46:12):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:46:13):\r\n\r\nLet me ask you\u2014because I'm still picturing these guys talk about feeling unworthy\u2014and feeling like, \u201cI don't deserve freedom; I don't deserve anything.\u201d I know there's listeners\u2014I used to feel like that: \u201cI'm so unworthy\u201d; because of what had happened to me,\u2014and I'm sure they have felt it, both: \u201c\u2026what had happened to me,\u201d and \u201cWhat I had done to others,\u201d\u2014there's this probably shame and unworthiness. As I'm thinking of our listeners, who they're imprisoned; but they're home. They're not in a prison; they're imprisoned. What would you say to them? Would you say the same things?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:46:48):\r\n\r\nYou've got the image of God stamped on you; and apparently, that's really important. It really is: His value for us is incalculable. What I don't want to do\u2014as somebody who struggles with the same thing or has struggled\u2014what I don't want to do is override God's opinion with mine. I want His opinion to matter more. \r\n\r\nI can look at myself, and I have a feeling that I'm a failure; I can have a feeling that I'm unworthy. Okay, that's a feeling\u2014again, warning lights on a dashboard\u2014that's what feelings are. But I have to return to the truth: \u201cThe truth is that God is covering me in royal garments, and He wants to partner with me in life. I'm not going to say, \u2018No,\u2019 to that. I'm not going to let my opinion of me overwhelm that. So I'm going to speak truth to myself.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:47:41):\r\n\r\nThat's good. What does that sound like?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:47:45):\r\n\r\nWell, it sounds like Lamentations as Jeremiah\u2014who's looking at everything being destroyed\u2014and he can see it; his nation's being destroyed. He says, \u201cYet, I call this to mind; and therefore, I have hope. Because of the Lord's great love for us, we are not consumed. His mercies are new every morning. So whatever I've done, great is Your faithfulness, O Lord.\u201d But he has to tell himself that.\r\n\r\nDavid says, \u201cWhy are you so downcast, o my soul? Put your trust in God.\u201d Or he says, \u201cI'm afraid, so I'll praise God again.\u201d It's like these are human emotions. Shame is a very human thing to feel, but I want to replace my perception with God's reality. That does take us having a change, having a renewed mind. That does start with what I pay attention to. I need to be paying attention to things that are actually life-giving\u2014and true things that I can, just like the Scripture I was just quoting\u2014I can bring that to mind, to say, \u201cBrant, you're not a failure. You don't need to be ashamed of yourself. His mercies are new every morning.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:48:50):\r\n\r\n\u201cYou\u2019ve been clothed in righteousness.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant: Yes!\r\n\r\nDave (00:48:52):\r\n\r\nIn some ways, I remember in seminary, our president, Ron Jensen, talking about \r\n\r\nPsalm 103: \u201cBless the Lord, O my soul.\u201d You mentioned the song. Who did that song?\u2014 [singing]\u2014Bless the Lord.\r\n\r\nAudio Room (00:49:05):\r\n\r\nMatt Redman.\r\n\r\nAnn: Matt Redmond.\r\n\r\nDave (00:49:05):\r\n\r\nMatt Redmond.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:49:06):\r\n\r\nThank you.\r\n\r\nDave (00:49:07):\r\n\r\nIn some ways, what Ron was saying\u2014I'll never forget this; this is 40-some years ago\u2014he says, \u201cSometimes, I get in the shower in the morning; and I don't want to bless the Lord. My feelings are just dead; they're not passionate. And you know what I do?\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:49:21):\r\n\r\n\u2014doing.\r\n\r\nDave (00:49:21):\r\n\r\n[Singing] \u201cBless the Lord, o my soul. Come on soul! Bless the Lord.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant: Right.\r\n\r\nDave: Brandon Lake's Gratitude worship song is another song [singing]: \u201cCome on my soul; don't you get shy on me.\u201d That's a Psalm. He's like, \u201cCome on soul; let's go!\u201d\u2014I don't feel it; it doesn't matter.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:49:38):\r\n\r\n\u201cIt doesn't matter; do it anyway.\u201d \r\n\r\nDave (00:49:39):\r\n\r\n\u201cWe\u2019re going to bless the Lord right now. He's amazing! He's done great things. I'm going to bless the Lord.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:49:43):\r\n\r\nWe know this from psychology too: your feelings follow from your behavior so often. You can worship your way into feeling warm feelings.\r\n\r\nDave (00:49:53):\r\n\r\nTruth your way in. \r\n\r\nBrant (00:49:55):\r\n\r\nRight; right. You really do; it changes. You do something nice for somebody; you love them more. \r\n\r\nAnn: It's true!\r\n\r\nBrant: They\u2019ll feel something, so that's just a genius way. Again, it it's laid out in Scripture that way: \u201cWhy are you so downcast?\u201d and \u201cYou praise God,\u201d\u2014not because God needs it: He's feeling lonely today; He's feeling down in the dumps; tell Him He's great\u2014that's not why; it's for you, so that you don't have to be nervous.\r\n\r\nAnn: It\u2019s a reminder.\r\n\r\nDave (00:50:17):\r\n\r\nGet your soul where the truth is. \r\n\r\nAlright; we got a question from the peanut gallery\u2014our producer, Jim Mitchell; our audio engineer, Bruce Goff\u2014they're sitting in there. I have a feeling, because they texted me, that they want to ask you a question about something.\r\n\r\nJim (00:50:34):\r\n\r\nJust dying to ask a question; this happens every time you come, Brant. You get this room in here all worked up. You say provocative things. We mean it as a compliment. \r\n\r\nTo follow up on the earlier part of the conversation, where you were talking about the way of Jesus being easier. I'm not thinking that's what you mean. I'm not thinking \u201ceasy\u201d is the right word. I think what you're saying is: \u201cIt's hard, but it's better.\u201d I want to just make sure I'm understanding, because I've not found following Jesus to necessarily be easy. I know there's a lot of listeners and viewers who wouldn't characterize their walk with Jesus as easy. And even the verse you quoted, Matthew 7:14, there are several translations that say: \u201cHow narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life.\u201d Speak to that listener, who has found it difficult; and yet, probably better.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:51:33):\r\n\r\nWhen it says narrow is the way\u2014or \u201cdifficult\u201d\u2014if you go into the Greek, you're going to see \u201cnarrow\u201d again; it's the same word. I find it very interesting that we have this orthodoxy that even influences how we translate the Bible. For example, there's translations of the Bible: when Jesus says, \u201cDon't be angry,\u201d\u2014they insert\/a scribe, maybe centuries later, inserted \u201cunless for good reason.\u201d That shows up in King James version and some other stuff. But now, a there's an asterisk: \u201cActually, that's not in the original.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:52:07):\r\n\r\nSo how would \u201cNarrow is the gate\u201d read?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:52:09):\r\n\r\nWell, it says\u2014it doesn't say \u201cdifficult\u201d; it says \u201cnarrow,\u201d\u2014again.\r\n\r\nDave: Oh; \u201cNarrow is the gate.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant: You can do a\u2014 \r\n\r\nAnn (00:52:15):\r\n\r\nYou got a bad translation, Jim!\r\n\r\nJim (00:52:17):\r\n\r\nNo; I mean, I hear that. But there's some pretty smart guys on the ESV and the NET Bible. They're taking the text seriously, and they're translating it that way. They\u2019re not just\u2014\r\n\r\nBrant (00:52:26):\r\n\r\nOkay, here's the other thing: I'm not saying either path is easy. I'm saying, \u201cThis is easier.\u201d I absolutely believe that it is easier; I do believe it to be.\r\n\r\nJim (00:52:35):\r\n\r\nThis seems to be kind of a life message for you right now: that there are physiological benefits, and psychological and relational benefits to actually following Jesus, in the path of Jesus. He was gracious to call us into following Him. It's not all bad news; it's good news. \r\n\r\nI'm just wondering, experientially\u2014when people have found it difficult\u2014you're still saying, \u201cBut it's good, and it's actually better than what you would be experiencing if you weren't following Jesus.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:53:04):\r\n\r\nYes; if you see it clearly, you will go for it; because it\u2019s a great deal.\r\n\r\nDave (00:53:07):\r\n\r\nPlay it out in some areas. You already talked about forgiveness. It's easier to forgive.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:53:13):\r\n\r\n\u2014than live a life of unforgiveness.\r\n\r\nDave (00:53:13):\r\n\r\nIt's more difficult to do, but it's a lot worse not to.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:53:17):\r\n\r\n\u2014at first; but then, actually, it gets easier over time as you grow.\r\n\r\nDave (00:53:21):\r\n\r\nHow about \u201cresist sin.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:53:24):\r\n\r\nAgain, it gets easier as you go. \r\n\r\nDave (00:53:26):\r\n\r\nBecause people say, \u201cNo, that's hard; I can't!\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:53:30):\r\n\r\nAt first, sure; sure. Timothy Jennings is a neuroscientist and a believer. I don\u2019t know if you've interviewed him.\r\n\r\nDave (00:53:37):\r\n\r\nNo.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:53:38):\r\n\r\nHe wrote a book called The God\u2014I can't remember\u2014The God-Shaped Brain. He uses a great example. He was tempted to smoke cigarettes when he was in middle school. His mom told him not to; and then, he did. He got busted, and then he tried not to. Then, he stumbled and fell. Then, he's like, \u201cYou know what? I don't have a problem with that anymore. It would be weird if I called my mom every day to go, \u2018I didn't have a cigarette yesterday\u2019\u201d; because I'm a non-smoker. It's not on my plate anymore\u2014I've grown out of that\u2014it's not a thing. \r\n\r\nThat is very doable in life where it becomes an easier response because you have changed, as a person. It's all about who you're becoming. So with sin, you can go, \u201cYeah, it's hard for me to not\u2026\u201d\u2014if you're caught up in something\u2014it's hard for me to not do that. But actually, if you change your schedule, and go through that narrow way, it becomes easier as the farther away you are from it. And then, living a life, without being a slave to that, is an easier way of life.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:54:54):\r\n\r\nThat's what I just wrote down: \u201cWithout Christ, you're a slave to your desires.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:54:59):\r\n\r\nYou're a slave to your desires; that is your flesh. So being freed from that is actually an easier way to live than being a slave. In fact, being a slave to your desires will make life pretty miserable.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:55:08):\r\n\r\nExactly.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:55:09):\r\n\r\nSo this is an easier way to live. You do have to deny yourself\u2014so both ways can be hard\u2014both guys had to build the house; but in life, it's actually going to turn out to be an easier, lighter way. Even if there are difficulties, it's easier than the alternatives.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:55:25):\r\n\r\n\u2014because the storm is coming to both houses. \r\n\r\nBrant (00:55:30):\r\n\r\nAbsolutely. \r\n\r\nAnn: The rain falls on the just, and the unjust.\r\n\r\nBrant: And destruction is coming.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:55:32):\r\n\r\n\u2014for all of us.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:55:32):\r\n\r\nWell, destruction is coming for the wide way; that's not easier.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:55:36):\r\n\r\nAnd hard things happen, no matter what's going on; because through the adversity, God is shaping us, but He's with us in it. \r\n\r\nDave (00:55:46):\r\n\r\nMy journey with alcohol\u2014would match exactly what you said\u2014my dad was an alcoholic; my mom was alcoholic. Before I was a believer, I'm going to every party and I'm drinking. And then, when I come to Christ, and I want to stop this. I'm not drinking to have a drink; I'm drinking to get drunk\u2014that was why I drank\u2014it wasn't: \u201cHave a glass of wine\u201d; it was; \u201cHave five.\u201d \r\n\r\nI thought, \u201cMan, this is hard. I can't go to a bar. If I go to a bar, I fall.\u201d I did it a couple times; and I'm like, \u201cI can't go to a bar\u201d; and so I never did; I stopped. I go to a party, and they'd hand me a beer; and I'm like\u2014I felt it was hard\u2014guess what? I go to a bar now; no problem. \r\n\r\nBrant (00:56:28):\r\n\r\nYeah, you\u2019re a different person.\r\n\r\nDave (00:56:29):\r\n\r\nI\u2019m a different person; there's no desire. If somebody stuck a beer in hand, I say, \u201cNo thanks.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:56:31):\r\n\r\nIt's just not a\u2014but being an alcoholic is really hard.\r\n\r\nDave (00:56:35):\r\n\r\nYeah, yeah. It\u2019s really destructive.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:56:38):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nAnn (00:56:38):\r\n\r\nBeing a slave to your desires is hard.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:56:40):\r\n\r\nYeah, that is the alternative.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:56:40):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:56:41):\r\n\r\nSo again, there's a cost of discipleship But even if you read The Cost of Discipleship by a Bonhoeffer, he allows that this is an easier way to live. The cost of non-discipleship is higher. So I guess that's how I would put it. There's a cost\u2014the pearl costs something; the treasure in the field costs something\u2014but if you see it, you're like, \u201cI want that,\u201d\u2014not because it's going to make your life harder. The pearl merchant is not buying the thing that\u2019s going to make his life worse. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:57:10):\r\n\r\nBut he\u2019ll be richer.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:57:11):\r\n\r\nIt makes it richer and better; there are blessings that will flow from it. There's innumerable examples; that's a great example. But also just like being able to forgive people. Other people can't; they\u2019re stuck with it. Whatever happens in traffic now determines\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:57:25):\r\n\r\n\u2014their mood for the day.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:57:26):\r\n\r\n\u2014the day That takes a toll on your body. That's a harder way to live. \r\n\r\nSo that would be my counter to that. I don't know if it makes sense, but I actually think when Jesus is saying that His yoke is lighter and easier, that He actually means that. But it is narrow; it is narrow.\r\n\r\nJim (00:57:50):\r\n\r\nI agree. Just not being afraid of death has physiological\u2014I'm going to sleep better; my relationships are going to be better\u2014I get it. I just worry a little bit about there is a narrow way and there is a cost. There were people that left because that saying is hard. The disciples even pushed back, and said, \u201cWhat about us? We've left these things too.\u201d And He says, \u201cIn the kingdom, you'll receive a return.\u201d They were feeling a valid hardship to discipleship. \r\n\r\nI know your heart; I know what you're saying all of it; not either\/or. That\u2019s what I was trying to interact with. \r\n\r\nBrant (00:58:58):\r\n\r\nWhen He sent the disciples out to share the good news, what was that?\r\n\r\nDave (00:59:07):\r\n\r\nWhat do you mean?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:59:08):\r\n\r\nWell, Jesus sent His disciples out to share the good news. What were they saying?\r\n\r\nDave (00:59:11):\r\n\r\nOh; \u201cThe kingdom of God is at hand.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:59:15):\r\n\r\nYes; \u201cIt's available; it's open for business.\u201d It's going to make your life worse? Or you can step into the kingdom now, and it's a rich and satisfying life that's lighter.\r\n\r\nJim (00:59:27):\r\n\r\nThanks, Brant, for letting us interact with you around it. You got us thinking. It's very provocative,\u2014\r\n\r\nBrant (00:59:32):\r\n\r\nGood.\r\n\r\nJim (00:59:33):\r\n\r\n\u2014in a good way.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:59:34):\r\n\r\nI do like that. And it's also good for me to hear your responses; I appreciate your judgments on it. It helps me to be a better communicator.\r\n\r\nJim (00:59:44):\r\n\r\nSo send your emails to Brant Hansen at FamilyLife.com.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014at FamilyLife.com; yeah. \r\n\r\nJim (00:59:49):\r\n\r\nExactly! \r\n\r\nBrant: Get a quick apology.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:59:55):\r\n\r\nHey, thanks for watching. If you liked this episode,\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (00:59:58):\r\n\r\nYou better like it.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:59:59):\r\n\r\n\u2014just hit that \u201cLike\u201d button.\r\n\r\nDave (01:00:00):\r\n\r\nAnd we'd like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the \u201cSubscribe\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\ncan't say the word, \u201csubscribe\u201d\u2014hit the \u201cSubscribe\u201d button. I don't think I can say this \r\n\r\nword! \r\n\r\nAnn: I can subscribe. \r\n\r\nDave: Look at that! You say it so easily. \u201cSubscribe\u201d; there he goes!\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife.com                                 \r\n\r\n\n"],"ssp_guid":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/how-the-gospel-transforms-your-marriage-and-overcomes-fear-brant-hansen\/"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-317211.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-317211.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__video-wrap video{opacity: 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});\";s:18:\"current_block_list\";a:17:{i:0;s:14:\"uagb\/container\";i:1;s:12:\"core\/heading\";i:2;s:9:\"core\/html\";i:3;s:10:\"core\/group\";i:6;s:21:\"uagb\/advanced-heading\";i:7;s:14:\"uagb\/separator\";i:8;s:14:\"uagb\/icon-list\";i:9;s:20:\"uagb\/icon-list-child\";i:10;s:11:\"core\/search\";i:13;s:18:\"core\/legacy-widget\";i:16;s:10:\"uagb\/image\";i:17;s:17:\"core\/social-links\";i:18;s:16:\"core\/social-link\";i:19;s:14:\"core\/paragraph\";i:20;s:30:\"meta-box\/fl-conditional-blocks\";i:21;s:12:\"uagb\/buttons\";i:22;s:18:\"uagb\/buttons-child\";}s:8:\"uag_flag\";b:1;s:11:\"uag_version\";i:1776384200;s:6:\"gfonts\";a:1:{s:7:\"Default\";a:2:{s:10:\"fontfamily\";s:7:\"Default\";s:12:\"fontvariants\";a:0:{}}}s:10:\"gfonts_url\";s:71:\"\/\/fonts.googleapis.com\/css?family=Default&subset=latin&display=fallback\";s:12:\"gfonts_files\";a:0:{}s:14:\"uag_faq_layout\";b:0;}"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2025\/02\/image_bbee74.jpg",1024,1024,true]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"In this episode of the FamilyLife Today Podcast, Christian radio host Brant Hansen redefines the gospel as a transformative way of life that frees you from fear, anxiety, and shame.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"\n<ul>\n<li>Visit Brant's website <a href=\"https:\/\/branthansen.com\/\">branthansen.com<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Connect with Brant on <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/branthansen\/\">Instgram<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/branthansenpage\">Facebook<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-09-04.pdf","transcript_content":"\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nWho Wouldn\u2019t Want to follow THAT Jesus?\r\n\r\nGuest: Brant Hansen\r\n\r\nRelease Date: September 4, 2025\r\n\r\nBrant (00:00:00):\r\n\r\nThe fact that we get to spend [eternity], after we die, with God is incredible; it's part of the gospel. Jesus talked about the gospel being: \u201cThe kingdom is now available to you. It's now open for business; it's here,\u201d\u2014that's the good news\u2014\"You can step into this way of life now\u201d; and there's a cost to it. But here's what I was telling these guys: \u201cThe cost of not doing it is higher.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:00:29):\r\n\r\nAlright. Are you excited? We got Brant Hansen back in the studio.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:00:32):\r\n\r\nIt is always a good day when Brant is here.\r\n\r\nBrant: Oh, you guys.\r\n\r\nDave (00:00:35):\r\n\r\nWe feel that way about you, Brant. \r\n\r\nBrant: Thank you! \r\n\r\nDave: And we do not say that about everybody. \r\n\r\nBrant: Thank you. \r\n\r\nDave: I hope they're not listening right now. All the rest of you are just not at the level Brant Hansen is. We can sing songs. We could put this interview on pause and sing songs from the \u201860s, \u201870s, \u201880s for probably an hour or two hours. We did that one time at your place. \r\n\r\nBrant: Absolutely; yeah.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:00:58):\r\n\r\nWe did it on the cruise ship too.\r\n\r\nDave (00:00:59):\r\n\r\nOh, yeah; that's right. Nobody on the cruise knows; we went to their\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:02):\r\n\r\nAnd your wife, Carolyn, man, she knows the parts,\u2014\r\n\r\nBrant (00:01:05):\r\n\r\nShe can\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:06):\r\n\r\n\u2014every part.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:01:07):\r\n\r\nWe enjoy doing that. I've learned piano recently, but we'll just sit there and do songs all the time.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:13):\r\n\r\nThis is a new thing?!\r\n\r\nBrant (00:01:14):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:15):\r\n\r\nThat's fun. \r\n\r\nDave: Of course, it is.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:01:16):\r\n\r\nI'm not bad at it\u2019 I'm good enough that we can have a good time together, as a married couple. When you're empty nesters, you can start learning other instruments.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:22):\r\n\r\nThat's true. \r\n\r\nDave: I\u2019m going to do that.\r\n\r\nAnn: I don't. You do know piano.\r\n\r\nDave (00:01:25):\r\n\r\nI can get away with it; I need to learn the left hand.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:28):\r\n\r\nHave you taken lessons?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:01:29):\r\n\r\nTwo.\r\n\r\nDave: Two lessons?!\r\n\r\nBrant (00:01:31):\r\n\r\nThey were really good; they were good lessons. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:34):\r\n\r\nThey were good.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:01:35):\r\n\r\nWhat happens is you give up; and then, you're like, \u201cI just want to play it like I play guitar. You get a chord chart; and then, you go from there.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:01:41):\r\n\r\nI can do that.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:42):\r\n\r\nThat's how you play, with chords.\r\n\r\nDave (00:01:43):\r\n\r\nI play chord chart on the piano, but I don't really know what I'm doing. I need the left hand to\u2014anyway, why are we talking about this?! It\u2019s a waste of time.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:50):\r\n\r\nBecause Brant is just an interesting person. As we were having lunch today, Brant, you were talking to us about how you were invited to speak to a men's breakfast.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:02:00):\r\n\r\nI am really amped about this.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:02:04):\r\n\r\n\u2014the men's breakfast?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:02:06):\r\n\r\nSure, breakfast\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014dinner, lunch?\r\n\r\nBrant: \u2014I'm always amped. \r\n\r\nThey asked me to come speak at a businessman's breakfast. They asked me to share the gospel; and they said, \u201cWe've got a lot of guys, who are professionals; but they'll bring friends to this thing once a year.\u201d This was in New Jersey. They wondered if I'd come up and speak. I'm like, \u201cWell, sure.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:02:26):\r\n\r\nIt's like an outreach they do once a year to invite a lot of people to.\r\n\r\nDave (00:02:30):\r\n\r\n\u2014not CBMC?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:02:32):\r\n\r\nYes!\r\n\r\nDave (00:02:32):\r\n\r\nCBMC; I\u2019ve been to some of those.\r\n\r\nBrant: Christian Business Men\u2019s [Connection].\r\n\r\nBrant (00:02:35):\r\n\r\nIt was really nice of them to ask. My stress was: \u201cI'm not sure I'll do it right\u201d; because, honestly, when we talk about the gospel, a lot of times people have their own idea about what that is. I don't know that we always understand how big it is and how wonderful it is. And the other thing is you can ask people to pray a prayer; and then, \u201cHey, you get to go to heaven when you die.\u201d But that's not what I wanted to talk about. I think we're missing out on something; and that is, connecting to Jesus as our teacher. If it's just about \u201cI go to heaven when I die,\u201d I'm missing out on something.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:03:13):\r\n\r\n\u2014on that relationship piece.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:03:14):\r\n\r\nYes, which I'm convinced is a better way to live. We don't talk about that. So I was kind of wondering\u2014I was like, \u201cIs it okay if I do it this way?\u201d\u2014they're like, \u201cOkay, sure.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:03:24):\r\n\r\nSo how did you start it? What did it sound like to start it?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:03:27):\r\n\r\nI told them: \u201cThis is the best deal you're ever going to hear. It's like a pearl merchant, recognizing something so great that you're willing to cash it all in for this. You don't have to do anything\u2014God gives you free will\u2014you can decide; you can walk away. People walked away from Jesus.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:03:44):\r\n\r\nSo there's no pressure.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:03:45):\r\n\r\nNo pressure at all\u2014there was no emotional appeal; there's no music; there was no fog lights or whatever; there's no lasers\u2014it was just me laying out: \u201cHere's why the way of Jesus is actually better than not the way.\u201d I think this is really important for people to communicate, because it is. You just have to lay out why.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:04:08):\r\n\r\nSo Brant, as you're talking about this\u2014and I can't wait to hear where you're going\u2014but I'm just thinking of how we talk to our kids about this. It's not like, \u201cHey, just pray this prayer.\u201d You're saying, \u201cNo; it's way better than that.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:04:19):\r\n\r\n\u201cIt's way better.\u201d The fact that we get to spend [eternity], after we die, with God is incredible; it's part of the gospel. Jesus talked about the gospel being: \u201cThe kingdom is now available to you. It's now open for business; it's here,\u201d\u2014that's the good news\u2014\"You can step into this way of life now\u201d; and there's a cost to it. But here's what I was telling these guys: \u201cThe cost of not doing it is higher.\u201d Yeah, there's a cost; but the cost of not doing is higher. I just went down the list.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:04:53):\r\n\r\nTell us the list.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:04:54):\r\n\r\nWell, let's talk about fear of death. I'm not afraid of death because of who Jesus is, and my following Him, and learning His ways. I don't have to deal with that. Can you imagine living life, where you're not afraid?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:05:05):\r\n\r\nI'm sitting there\u2014you guys know this; because Dave, you did the same thing with 500 men\u2014is that a thing that we fear?\u2014death?\r\n\r\nDave (00:05:11):\r\n\r\nOh, everybody does. \r\n\r\nBrant: Yes, aging, death.\r\n\r\nDeath: I think it\u2019s universal.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:05:14):\r\n\r\nIt's women, too, for sure.\r\n\r\nDave (00:05:15):\r\n\r\nThe most manly, courageous, stud-dog man is afraid of death, like a little boy.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:05:21):\r\n\r\nThe biggest stud-dog man of all\u2014you're right. \r\n\r\nIt's funny to me because you can talk about being freed from it. Our whole culture's afraid of death; we can't even talk about it.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:05:35):\r\n\r\nAnd we don't.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:05:36):\r\n\r\nHow about not being afraid? I'm not afraid!\r\n\r\nDave (00:05:39):\r\n\r\nYou had other ones, and that's all I need right there.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:05:43):\r\n\r\nYou would think, right?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:05:44):\r\n\r\nYou said, \u201cI'm not afraid.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:05:46):\r\n\r\nI'm like, \u201cGuys, it's not because I'm a superhero. I'm obviously not at all; most of the guys in this room could beat me up. But imagine living a life where you're not\u2014and this is shifting into another problem\u2014our whole culture does not know how to handle anxiety; we're sick with anxiety. Imagine being the non-anxious presence in your neighborhood, in your home, where you're no longer nervous about anything.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:06:13):\r\n\r\nIt's funny, Brant, that you say that. Just a few weeks ago, I'm on a table, having this stent put in. I remember, right before, the doctor's, like, \u201cOkay, you ready?\u201d I said, \u201cYeah,\u201d and \u201cLord, will You bless his hands and what he's about to do?\u201d As I was on the table, I thought, \u201cWell, God, either You have more for me here; but if not, it's even better.\u201d There's no loss; it's Paul's words: \u201cTo live is Christ, to die is gain.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:06:41):\r\n\r\nIt's a win-win. It's: \u201cSurely, Your goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014all the days of my life.\r\n\r\nDave (00:06:46):\r\n\r\nI could say I was, out in the waiting room, praying the same thing\u2014I wasn't praying that\u2014I didn't want you to go.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:06:52):\r\n\r\nI didn't either. But I also know I don't have any control of that.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:06:55):\r\n\r\nHere's the thing\u2014we're all humans\u2014but we do become less anxious people by following Jesus and learning how relaxed He is in how He responds to things. He said He came to bring us a rich and satisfying life\u2014that's from John 10:10\u2014that doesn't start after you die; it's now. We actually have to learn His ways\u2014how to bless your enemies\u2014it's not just anxiety; how would you like to not be angry?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:07:27):\r\n\r\nWell, I'm just imagining. You've hit death, anxiety.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:07:31):\r\n\r\nI'm making a list right here. \r\n\r\nBrant: What?! Really. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:07:32):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:07:33):\r\n\r\nThese are things our culture has no way of handling. Jesus is a genius; He's the smartest man who ever lived. I use this example all the time\u2014and I've mentioned it with you before too\u2014but there are endocrinologists who tell us that anxiety and anger kill us. They have such a deleterious effect on our physiognomy. Here's Jesus, 2,000 years ago, modeling how we can live without it; because He loves us. It ages us; it makes us put on weight; it costs us in terms of our heart. There's all of these problems that come from our not knowing what to do with anxiety or anger. We're not equipped for this; Jesus gives us a way to do it.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:08:19):\r\n\r\nWhat do you think, in our culture\u2014people who have anxiety and\/or anger\u2014how are we coping with those without Christ?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:08:28):\r\n\r\nWe are not. That\u2019s just it. All the suggestions\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014escape.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:08:31):\r\n\r\n\u2014and numb out.\r\n\r\nDave (00:08:33):\r\n\r\n\u2014alcohol; you name it. \r\n\r\nBrant: Sure. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:08:36):\r\n\r\n[We\u2019re] hiding into something, because we can't deal with it\u2014you're saying.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:08:39):\r\n\r\nYes, our culture is bankrupt on this. If you read\u2014and I've read a lot\u2014it could be New York Times, The Atlantic, or whatever, they'll talk about our culture: \u201cEpidemic of Anxiety,\u201d \u201cEpidemic of Anger.\u201d What do you do? Well, you count to ten; you listen to some music; you\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:08:53):\r\n\r\n\u2014meditate.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:08:54):\r\n\r\nIt doesn't work. People are seething with anger, and it's ruining people's homes. \r\n\r\nJesus is talking about blessing those who curse you. He's talking about forgiving people out of gratitude that we have for being forgiven, because we've been forgiven; and what that looks like. On the Sermon on the Mount, He starts with anger when He's talking about how to live. It is the most fundamental human problem; He's giving us a way out of it.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:09:21):\r\n\r\nI'm thinking about the people listening right now; they're like: \u201cNo, you don't understand. I'm dealing with that right now; and I do have Jesus, and I am angry too. So how do I apply that eternity right now? What's that look like? How can I get out of that?\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:09:35):\r\n\r\nWell, if I'm trusting God with His justice, I have to hand that over to Him\u2014that is a very real thing\u2014I am not here to meet out all of justice in this world. \r\n\r\nThe other thing is, it really is going to kill you. It does not help if you're going to live with this. The point is: anger happens; it's like a warning light on a dashboard. We're told to get rid of it before the sun goes down. It's not a sin, in and of itself; but thinking we're entitled to it is a sin, because it'll destroy us. God actually loves us, so this is a way to freedom. If you're like, \u201cWell, I can't just let this go,\u201d well, then, you're going to be carrying it with you for the rest of your life. \r\n\r\nThis is what I'm telling these guys, too: \u201cLook, it's hard to forgive people, but it's way harder to live a life of bitterness.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:10:28):\r\n\r\nYou're saying, literally: \u201cIt'll kill you.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:10:29):\r\n\r\n\u201cIt'll kill you.\u201d You have to carry that around, and it torpedoes your family. It torpedoes your relationships. You're not living at peace. You don't have peace in your home, because you think you're entitled to carry this thing around. Jesus is saying, \u201cDon't do that.\u201d His way is smarter. Again, it's a better way to live! \r\n\r\nHe's a genius in every field; He knows. So when He's telling us to be like the birds of the air, well, animals don't carry anger around with them. They have a fight-or-flight response, but it's over quickly. They don't\u2014they're not borrowing trouble\u2014that could happen next month. Again, everything Jesus is telling us is a genius way to live that's actually lighter and better. I'm like, \u201cGuys, imagine laughing more, not being afraid, not being as threatened by people.\u201d And how about this?\u2014\"How about not being ashamed?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:11:23):\r\n\r\nOh, you're hitting all these biggies. All of us are dealing with all of these.\r\n\r\nDave (00:11:28):\r\n\r\nI'm writing down everything you're saying.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:11:30):\r\n\r\nNice; well, how about that? Is this a better way of life or not? We're all going to carry around shame. Look what God does with Adam. I use Adam as an example when I wrote about this in The Men We Need. He blows it; he's responsible for mass destruction. And when he blows it, God comes looking for him, and says, \u201cWhere'd you go? What happened to us? We used to walk together.\u201d And then, He clothes Adam. The clothes He puts on Adam and Eve are royal garments; the word is kuttoneth. It's not just primitive furs that He's putting on; these are royal robes. \r\n\r\n\u201cDo you know that God still wants to cover you?\u201d\u2014that's what I'm saying to guys\u2014\"He still wants to walk with you. He wants to partner with you in your business. Do you know that He\u2019s a great partner to have?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:12:24):\r\n\r\n\u2014no matter what you've done.\r\n\r\nBrant: \u2014no matter what. \r\n\r\nAnn: You're right: Adam's sin cost all of us. All of us are experiencing the consequences. And yet, God continued to pursue him; told him: \u201cCome out of hiding; I'm here.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:12:36):\r\n\r\n\u201cI'm here; I want to walk with you.\u201d Guys, you can walk with\u2014you don't have to\u2014He's not going to force you to love Him. That's the big experiment; isn't it? It seems like that's the thing in Job, where the enemy's like, \u201cYeah, you have to force these people to love You. You have to give them so much.\u201d \r\n\r\nWill we freely love Him? My answer is, \u201cYes.\u201d As I've studied Jesus' way of living\u2014not living in shame anymore, even though I am a sinner, present tense; everyone in this room is\u2014but He still wants to clothe you with royal garments. That's what He thinks of you. This is a better way to live, guys.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:13:17):\r\n\r\nIt's the gospel, and it doesn't even make sense.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:13:20):\r\n\r\nIt's so good.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:13:21):\r\n\r\nIt's so good!\r\n\r\nBrant (00:13:22):\r\n\r\nIt's so good. Jesus said, \u201cIf you understand it, you're going to go, \u2018I want that; I want that.\u2019\u201d Rarely, in church culture, I've noticed\u2014and I'm in Christian radio too\u2014rarely, in Christian radio, do we really unpack what the gospel of the kingdom actually is. The good news is here\u2014\"I have good news; look at all the good stuff,\u201d\u2014this isn't bad news. \r\n\r\nAnd just like we were talking about Psalm 23: the rest of your life, you get to grow in this. You get to become a rock for your family; you're a beacon of peace in your family. You have peace in your home. You're not threatened by other guys, like you used to be. You're not worried about tomorrow\u2014imagine that\u2014and then, when you die, you're stepping into the kingdom in its fullness.\r\n\r\nDave (00:14:16):\r\n\r\nI'm guessing 500 guys gave their life to Jesus that same day.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:14:19):\r\n\r\nWell, honestly, there were hundreds of guys who were believers. I think there were probably 150 guys who weren't. I think they told me that; they have these response cards afterward. They had 90 guys say, for the first time in their lives, \u201cI want this.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:14:33):\r\n\r\nCome on!\r\n\r\nBrant (00:14:34):\r\n\r\nWhat they do so well is they meet each week in small groups\u2014they disciple people\u2014so the gospel, as I'm explaining it, matches up to discipleship. It doesn't leave you hanging like, \u201cOkay, I said the thing. Now, I go to heaven when I die. Now what?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:14:51):\r\n\r\nNow, you get to learn the relationship piece.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:14:53):\r\n\r\nYes; \u201cHe\u2019s my Rabbi; He's my Teacher; I\u2019m going to learn from Him.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:14:55):\r\n\r\n\u201cI'm going to follow Him.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:14:56):\r\n\r\nYeah; \u201cI'm going to follow.\u201d Jesus is looking for followers.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:14:59):\r\n\r\nWhat do you guys think that means?\u2014to follow Jesus\u2014what's that look like, practically speaking?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:15:05):\r\n\r\nI think it's the stuff we're talking about.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:15:07):\r\n\r\nMe too.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:15:07):\r\n\r\nYou actually take what He says seriously. He even said to His disciples: \u201cGo out and make other disciples, teaching them to obey the things I've commanded you to do.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:15:18):\r\n\r\nThis is the thing: \u201cWhy does He say to obey?\u201d Because He loves them, and because He doesn't want them to experience the pain that comes from the consequences of our sin.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:15:26):\r\n\r\nTrue; that'll be: \u201cTeaching them to obey what I've said.\u201d He did say things about how to live. They're very practical; but unfortunately\u2014I feel like churches could, if they wanted, put a sign up that says: \u201cHey, Tuesday night at 7:00, we're going to teach you how to follow Jesus.\u201d It could be: \u201cHere's how to bless your enemies; how to bless people in traffic, who are cursing you.\u201d This is so practical; so doable, and it changes your heart. I've joked with you guys about this before: \u201cTraffic is forgiveness practice.\u201d The practice\u2014as you know in your athletic background, and for both of you\u2014you can do things that you couldn't do before because you trained. \r\n\r\nFollowing Jesus is the same thing. At first, you're like: \u201cI can't just say \u2018bless\u2026\u2019; I can't pray for blessings on some guy who just cut me off.\u201d You can; and when you do, and you make it a habit, it'll become second nature. You won't even react in the moment; you won't be throwing a fit like you used to, because now you're different. Why? You're learning the rhythm of life with Jesus; He's your Rabbi. You take your cues from Him: \u201cHow does He act? Okay, so I do want to bless people who curse me. I do want to forgive people, because I've been forgiven. Alright; I do want to pray for those who are out to get me.\u201d \r\n\r\nThis is a doable way of life. It turns out Jesus knows what He's talking about; it's the best way of life that is available. \u201cNow, do you want it?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:17:02):\r\n\r\nSo often, we think of following Jesus as: \u201cDo nots.\u201d So often, that's where the churches started: \u201cDo not curse,\u201d \u201cDo not have sex, outside [of marriage],\u201d \u201cDo not...\u201d\u2014which are all good things; you shouldn't. But we don't talk about what you just presented to those men. Who doesn't want that? \r\n\r\nBrant: \r\n\r\nBrant (00:17:30):\r\n\r\nWho doesn't want it? Why can\u2019t we present it that way?\u201d It\u2019s true.\r\n\r\nDave: If you follow Him, the \u201cDo nots\u201d will happen. Those desires are going to fall away. \r\n\r\nBrant: The Pharisees, were doing the \u201cDo nots,\u201d They're doing that way of life: \u201cDo not do this,\u201d \u201cDo not do that.\u201d Jesus is like, \u201cLook, clean the inside of the cup.\u201d \r\n\r\nHere's the thing: it gets easier when you become a different person. You become the type of person who now responds differently in the moment, because you've been doing this stuff; and it becomes more second nature. It's easier to do it. At first, you can't just speak German: \u201cI'm going to speak German now,\u201d\u2014I can't do that\u2014but I could become that person if I trained under a teacher. It's the same thing as I learn the ways of Jesus\u2014I put it into practice\u2014you become a different person. \r\n\r\nI told the guys: \u201cGuys, this is an easier way to live.\u201d In a lot of church culture, they're like, \u201cYou can't say that; it's harder,\u201d\u2014it's not\u2014Jesus said it's easier.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:18:19):\r\n\r\n\u201cMy yoke is easy.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:18:19):\r\n\r\nIt's lighter; He said so. Now, you do have to deny yourself, but it turns out that leads to a more easy way of life.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:18:28):\r\n\r\n\u2014and more freedom.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:18:29):\r\n\r\n\u2014more freedom, more freedom. So when somebody hits you, you're so free that they don't determine your next move. The natural human reaction is you hit back; but in the kingdom-way-of-life, it's not my natural reaction anymore: \u201cYou don't dictate my next move.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:18:45):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s so good.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:18:46):\r\n\r\nIt's so good; this is a better way of living.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:18:48):\r\n\r\nI'm just sitting here, thinking about myself as a parent with kids. When they were growing up\/teenagers\u2014as I'm talking about the gospel, and Scripture, and all of that\u2014I'm thinking, \u201cMan, I think maybe I'd present it in that way now.\u201d I think, before, we're so focused on: \u201cDo you know Jesus? Did you say the prayer?\u201d\u2014instead of saying\u2014\u201cAre you following Him?\u201d and \u201cDo you know how good it is to follow Him?\u201d\u2014those things. \r\n\r\nHow did you present that?\u2014you and Carolyn with the kids.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:19:18):\r\n\r\nWell, I'm learning as I go.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:19:21):\r\n\r\nAren\u2019t we all? I would be so much better now! \r\n\r\nBrant (00:19:22):\r\n\r\nWhat\u2019s cool is, as you're listening, if you're like, \u201cWell, I've never really thought about it this way,\u201d\u2014okay; that's cool. We're still learning, aren\u2019t we? \r\n\r\nAnn (00:19:29):\r\n\r\n\u2014always.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:19:30):\r\n\r\nWell, wait; if we're disciples, we're always in learner mode.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:19:32):\r\n\r\n\u2014always. \r\n\r\nDave: That\u2019s what it means.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:19:33):\r\n\r\nThat's not going to end. But the hard thing about is\u2014if we're not teaching this to people\u2014we're not teaching them to follow Jesus practically; we're actually making their lives harder.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:19:44):\r\n\r\nWhat do you mean?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:19:45):\r\n\r\nWe can be like, \u201cI want to make things convenient and cool,\u201d\u2014\"Hey, don't stress out about it. Just say the prayer; go to heaven.\u201d You're not teaching them this way of life that's actually easier. So now, they're stuck in these patterns and things. You haven't taught them.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:19:58):\r\n\r\nIt's like getting in a car; you don't know how to drive, like, \u201cHey, good luck!\u201d And they\u2019re crashing all over the place.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:20:03):\r\n\r\nThat makes it harder, doesn't it?\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes!\r\n\r\nBrant (00:20:05):\r\n\r\nWhen Jesus talks about the narrow way and the wide way, He doesn't say the wide way is actually easy. Now, there's a couple translations that throw that word in there\u2014but it's not in the Greek\u2014it's just \u201cnarrow\u201d and \u201cwide.\u201d He actually says the wide way leads to destruction, which does not sound easy to me. \r\n\r\nHe also talks about\u2014when He tells us how to live, and He wraps up the Sermon on the Mount with\u2014there's a guy who builds his house on the sand; a guy who builds his house on the rock. Well, it's hard to build a house, but who's got it easy now after the storm? This is not the hardest way to live\u2014this is a freeing way to live\u2014but it's a narrow way. Most will choose anything but Jesus. But the people who do find that door, they find that: \u201cWait, this is actually a lighter, easier yoke in life. Instead of worshiping somebody else, I will learn from Him.\u201d Again, He's a genius; He knows how to live; He made us. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:21:05):\r\n\r\nSo the person who\u2019s saying, \u201cI want that. I want to be discipled. I want to follow Jesus. I'm just going to church on Sundays, you guys. What does it look like to follow Him? How do I do that?\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:21:16):\r\n\r\nI hope they have relationships with people who are being discipled or that the church is actually discipling people. We tend to think of disciples as somebody, like, \u201cOh, you're getting really extreme with the whole Christian thing.\u201d That's not it at all. There's only one thing that is being a disciple or not.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:21:33):\r\n\r\nIt's a learner.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:21:35):\r\n\r\nI think that explains a lot of hypocrisy that we see, because people never stepped into this way of life. If they did, they wouldn't want to step out of it. My challenge, I guess, would be, from my perspective: \u201cI hope more of us believers begin to understand things this way.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:21:56):\r\n\r\nMe too.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:21:57):\r\n\r\nAnd then, it's easy to talk to people about this; and then, go, \u201cHey, are you interested in it?\u201d And then, \u201cWe can study Jesus stuff together. We can talk, practically, about how we can bless people who don't like us; or pray for people who hate us,\u201d and \u201cLet's live this out.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:22:11):\r\n\r\nI'm guessing you got invited to come back and do that again.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:22:15):\r\n\r\nI hope so. Yeah, they liked it. I love talking about this stuff, because I think it's so important. It's something we've been missing as a culture\u2014not everybody\u2014but it'd be nice to see this catch fire. \r\n\r\nAnn: Me too.\r\n\r\nDave (00:22:30):\r\n\r\nYour thoughts, Brant\u2014that's why we love you\u2014you're so fresh. \r\n\r\nBrant (00:22:34):\r\n\r\nWell, thanks!\r\n\r\nDave (00:22:35):\r\n\r\nYou come from a different angle that many people aren't thinking. I got to be honest\u2014I speak quite a bit at men's events\u2014I steal Brant Hansen stuff every time; I give you credit every time: \u201cLet me tell you what my friend, Brant Hansen, says: \u2018The keeper of the garden,\u2019\u201d\u2014the whole thing\u2014I'm not kidding.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:22:55):\r\n\r\nIt's so good.\r\n\r\nDave (00:22:56):\r\n\r\nEverywhere I go, people are like, \u201cThis is really fresh.\u201d I'm like, \u201cYeah, get the book.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:22:59):\r\n\r\nCool; thank you.\r\n\r\nDave (00:22:59):\r\n\r\nIf our listeners haven't\u2014or watchers, actually\u2014haven't read The Men We Need, which isn't what we're really talking about today\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:23:07):\r\n\r\nWell, this sounds like it's going to be a new book.\r\n\r\nDave (00:23:08):\r\n\r\n\u2014I'm just going to tell you it's in our show notes. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com\/Show Notes; there's a link there you can go to get the book.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:23:14):\r\n\r\nAnd when you have this new book\u2014have you started this?\u2014this is a whole new\u2014\r\n\r\nBrant (00:23:18):\r\n\r\nI have; I just started it.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:23:19):\r\n\r\nYou have. We\u2019ll have you back on when we\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: Does it have a title?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:23:21):\r\n\r\nI want to call it: \u201cThe Best Deal Ever.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:23:24):\r\n\r\nYeah, that's good.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:23:25):\r\n\r\nThanks. I haven't told my publisher that; so hopefully, they'll like it. We'll see. I really do think it's like the pearl and the treasure in the field; that's the kingdom!\r\n\r\nDave (00:23:38):\r\n\r\nBefore we continue, let me say this: at FamilyLife, we really believe strong families can change the world. When you become a FamilyLife Partner, you can make that happen.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:23:48):\r\n\r\nI don't know if you realize this: your monthly gift helps us equip marriages and families with biblical tools that they can count on.\r\n\r\nDave (00:23:57):\r\n\r\nThat's a pretty cool deal. We also want to send you exclusive updates, behind-the-scenes access, and an invitation to our private Partner community, which is also pretty cool. Join us, and let's reach marriages and families together.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:24:10):\r\n\r\nYou can go to FamilyLifeToday.com, and click the \u201cDonate\u201d button to join today; that\u2019s FamilyLifeToday.com. \r\n\r\nAnn: The idea of following Jesus\u2014I'm sitting here and thinking of our listeners right now\u2014I think that's what we're inviting them to do: \u201cWill you follow Him?\u201d Because you don't have to have the answers right away; the disciples didn't know everything; they're like, \u201cOkay, we'll follow You.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:24:34):\r\n\r\nTotally.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:24:34):\r\n\r\nAnd they just learned along the way.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:24:36):\r\n\r\nRight; isn't that great?\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:24:37):\r\n\r\nYou can invite somebody into that now.\r\n\r\nAnn: It takes pressure off.\r\n\r\nBrant: Right.\r\n\r\nDave (00:24:39):\r\n\r\nYou answer this: \u201cHow is following Jesus the best way to live in your marriage?\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:24:44):\r\n\r\nOh, goodness; that's a great question. Being a less-anxious person helps in the home, so I'll start with that. Just the peace that comes from that for both of us, personally. The forgiveness that becomes first nature as you practice this with your enemies at work, or on the road, or whatever\u2014you're praying for them\u2014it changes your demeanor. That becomes the default in the home.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:25:15):\r\n\r\nLess anger is always helpful.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:25:17):\r\n\r\nThere's this gentleness that we develop. There's a lack of neediness that comes over you, over time. This is a process.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:25:30):\r\n\r\nYou don't try to find your life through your spouse, because you have found it in following Jesus.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:25:36):\r\n\r\nYeah; it's like that's the peace thing\u2014regardless of circumstances, you're okay\u2014that takes a lot of the heat out of some of the need that gets sidetracked in our marriages. I think those are really practical things. \r\n\r\nI've decided long ago, I think as a process in this, but I actually want to be more polite with my wife inside the house than I'm with anybody else outside it; so that there's a gentleness. I\u2019m more gentle with her than I am with a stranger, instead of inverting it. A lot of times, that's what happens\u2014we treat other people with more respect than in our homes\u2014I want to invert that.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:26:23):\r\n\r\nWe just did a segment on that: \u201cWhy are we nicer to the people?\u201d\u2014just yesterday. \r\n\r\nDave (00:26:27):\r\n\r\nWho you are at home is who you really are\u2014that kind of thing. \r\n\r\nI do remember in college\u2014I gave my life to Christ in college\u2014prayed a prayer; chose to start following Christ. I remember one of the first things I noticed starting to change\u2014it didn't change immediately; but immediately, I noticed it\u2014it was, walking into that, I thought everything in my life is about\u2014guess what?\u2014me! I'm a college quarterback at the time, so I even get to go out on a field and all these people are looking at me! I realized, immediately, \u201cIt's not about me. In fact, it never has been. I'm supposed to consider others valuable, not me. I\u2019m not the most important person in the room; actually, other people are.\u201d Selfish to selfless was a big shift. \r\n\r\nBrant: It takes the pressure off. \r\n\r\nDave: That, obviously, applies in marriage.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:27:21):\r\n\r\nThinking about the pressure, when Christians would say in the early-going, \u201cJesus is Lord,\u201d\u2014that was a big deal\u2014it meant: \u201cJesus is Caesar; I\u2019ll tell you who Caesar is.\u201d That's a big deal\u2014but it also means: \u201c I'm not Caesar. If I say Jesus is Lord, I'm not Lord,\u201d\u2014well, that's a big relief.\r\n\r\nDave (00:27:48):\r\n\r\nAnd your marriage doesn't become about my spouse meeting my needs\u2014it's actually not\u2014it's irrelevant.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:27:54):\r\n\r\nThat the whole posture changes to: \u201cHow am I helping other people flourish?\u201d\u2014which is absolutely life-giving. But the neat thing is: this is something you can step into now, even if you never understood it this way. You can step into this now, and the people around you will benefit immediately. You'll grow from here. There'll be an immediate change in posture when you realize, \u201cWait a second. Okay, I'm going to bless my enemies.\u201d That may be the people in my home many times; they're the ones who are driving us crazy. This practice will change that.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:28:35):\r\n\r\nI think a lot of our listeners are probably followers\u2014and have been followers of Jesus\u2014but they haven't invited somebody to go on a journey with them to follow Jesus: \u201cHey, you want to follow Jesus with me?\u201d In terms of that's that discipleship piece: \u201cHey, you want to hang out and get coffee once a week? I can tell you how Jesus is changing me and how I'm failing, sometimes; but my purpose, my anxiety, my anger, my shame is all different. It's not overnight, but I'm changing.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:29:07):\r\n\r\nWell, it is such a neat thing to do with people too, because\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:29:11):\r\n\r\n\u2014it\u2019s ongoing. \r\n\r\nBrant (00:29:11):\r\n\r\nYou can practice this during the week, and get back and huddle: \u201cOkay, how did it go with your boss? You said you hated him, so you started praying for him. Now, how are you feeling about him?\u201d It's remarkable because you know, as soon as somebody starts praying for somebody that drives them crazy, your heart starts to turn towards that person. You're actually for them. Now, you're so full of blessing that, when somebody knocks into you, it just pours out instead of curses. That\u2019s fun to watch other people come alive like that, and you're on the journey with them. Jesus is our Teacher.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:29:49):\r\n\r\nWe're following Him together.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:29:50):\r\n\r\nWe're learning from Him and we're doing it. It's an exciting way to actually do this thing. \r\n\r\nDave (00:29:57):\r\n\r\nNow, we were talking to you earlier: you talked to 500 men at a breakfast; and then, you ended up in prison.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:30:05):\r\n\r\nHey, I was thinking we should call this whole thing: \u201cBrant Hansen's Adventures\u201d; because then he's like, \u201cWe were having lunch\u201d; and then, Brant says, \u201cOh, yeah, you know what I did?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:30:13):\r\n\r\nBill and Ted's Excellent Adventure: [This would be] \u201cBrant's Excellent Adventures\u201d\u2014whatever you want to call it.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:30:19):\r\n\r\n\u201c\u2026Misadventures.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: How did you end up in prison?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:30:20):\r\n\r\nYou used somebody's pickleball racket.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:30:24):\r\n\r\nThis is my new claim to fame. \r\n\r\nDave: \u2014paddle.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:30:25):\r\n\r\n\u2014paddle. \r\n\r\nDave: \u2014paddle.\r\n\r\nAnn: Sorry. \r\n\r\nDave: It's a paddle.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014pickleball paddle.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:30:28):\r\n\r\nI just used the Menendez brothers\u2019 pickleball paddles, which I did not see coming.\r\n\r\nDave (00:30:36):\r\n\r\nThat's a chapter title right there! What does that mean?\r\n\r\nAnn: For our listeners, who don\u2019t know who they are\u2014\r\n\r\nBrant (00:30:41):\r\n\r\nYeah, Erik and Lyle Menendez; they're in prison in Southern California\u2014I wound up in their yard\u2014it's a max-security prison. They do have a pickleball court, but we used their paddles. \r\n\r\nI got to speak at this prison because a friend of mine had an in there. It was about 200 guys. I talked for\u2014I did four separate hour-long sessions\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (00:31:07):\r\n\r\nReally? \r\n\r\nAnn: Wow!\r\n\r\nBrant (00:31:10):\r\n\r\n\u2014about anger and forgiveness. \r\n\r\nWhat was wild: I had a guy helping me with audio\/visual stuff\u2014super nice guy, really smart\u2014he was one of the prisoners. Another guy was helping me with another thing, organizationally, getting set up\/setting up chairs. We're laughing and talking about stuff.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:31:32):\r\n\r\nThese are all inmates\u2014\r\n\r\nBrant (00:31:33):\r\n\r\nYeah, all inmates. We're getting along great.\r\n\r\nDave (00:31:35):\r\n\r\n\u2014for life, right?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:31:37):\r\n\r\nThey're in for life?\u2014all of them.\r\n\r\nBrant: I went home after the first day\u2014and Googled\u2014the crimes are so unspeakable. It was like several of them had been subjects of True Crime podcasts and 48 Hours episodes; absolutely unbelievable crimes.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:32:05):\r\n\r\nWould you have ever guessed it?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:32:06):\r\n\r\nNo.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:32:06):\r\n\r\nNever.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:32:08):\r\n\r\nNo. You wind up thinking about stuff: \u201cHey, I'm not the guy\u201d\u2014anybody who knows me knows this\u2014\"but if you think of a guy, who can go in and talk to tough guys, you wouldn't pick me. I play the accordion; I play the flute, all that stuff.\u201d We've laughed about that. But the neat thing was, not having any tattoos and owning up to the fact that I'm a nerd, actually helped.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:32:36):\r\n\r\nWhy do you think?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:32:37):\r\n\r\nThey told me that they get used to people coming in and presenting; it's all about them. They felt like what I was doing was I was genuinely not trying to impress them. And that was quite true; I wasn't. I think not having any hope of impressing them\u2014I don't have a motorcycle; I can't say, \u201cYeah, I know what it's like to be on the streets,\u201d or whatever\u2014I'm from a small town in the Midwest. Our biggest disagreement was between the John Deere people and the International Harvester people. \r\n\r\nIt's daunting though. I was thinking about the grace of God. When I'm sharing with church people, it just comes easy. And then these guys\u2014what they've done\u2014wow! There's one guy, who was writing the whole time I was talking, just scribbling, scribbling, scribbling, scribbling. My friend asked, \u201cWhat are you doing?\u201d He's like, \u201cI'm sharing this with my wife. This is everything; this is gold.\u2019 He had murdered two people, strangers, when he was 14; it was just one of the most brutal random things. And then, the backstory for him is so horrible\u2014what he had gone through as a kid\u2014absolutely, that's what you would get with that sort of treatment that he went through.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:08):\r\n\r\n\u2014that would be the outcome.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:34:10):\r\n\r\nYeah. He's writing all this stuff down feverishly\u2014I don't know that he ever gets out of prison, and I don't even know how he met his wife\u2014but that's the story for all these guys. There were guys there, who were 70\/75 years old; they're never leaving that place\u2014guys with canes; guys in wheelchairs\u2014older guys have been there for years.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:32):\r\n\r\nMan, it's like: \u201cHow do you even\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: It's their life.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014\"live like that or have any kind of hope?\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:34:39):\r\n\r\nRight. What was neat, too, they had a church service. I'm just being honest here\u2014they had a band of inmates; and the equipment wasn't great; and they weren't the greatest at their instruments, per se; if you go to a mega church, they're not making it through the [auditions]; and the guy, who led the singing, was an older gentleman, who would turn and face the screen so that he could see the lyrics too\u2014it did not sound very professional. And that was the best worship service I have been to\u2014there was no polish\u2014but man, those guys were letting it out. Again, the hope of getting out is not happening for almost all these guys.\r\n\r\nDave (00:35:35):\r\n\r\nWhy was it so great?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:35:37):\r\n\r\nI don't know! I can tell you why, from my perspective, the singing was visceral.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:35:45):\r\n\r\nThey meant it; they needed it.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:35:48):\r\n\r\nRight. Every word in that, every song lyric\u2014\u201cBless the Lord, O my soul,\u201d \u201cThe sun comes up; it's a new day dawning,\u201d\u2014and then, there's all these men just belting it out.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:36:05):\r\n\r\nI'm just going to cry the whole time. \r\n\r\nBrant: Seriously.\r\n\r\nAnn: It's a picture of the gospel: they don't deserve it; neither do we. But they certainly don't, because that's what they feel too.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:36:15):\r\n\r\nI think that's why it was so great too. My friend and I\u2014his wife's a brilliant worship leader\u2014and we both know some musicians wo are well-known, blah, blah, blah. It occurred to us both: \u201cHey, we could get this guy\u2026\u201d \u201c\u2026that lady in here,\u201d or \u201c\u2026that worship band,\u201d\u2014and it dawned on us, simultaneously\u2014\u201cThat would ruin it.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:36:37):\r\n\r\nNo.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:36:39):\r\n\r\nThis isn't about polish. It\u2019s not like: \u201cNow, next week,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:36:42):\r\n\r\n\u2014\"that'll be way better.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:36:43):\r\n\r\n\u201cYeah, I remember: you guys aren't any good.\u201d It was a heart thing. \r\n\r\nAnd the neat thing was: I got to get up\u2014again, I'm talking about The Men We Need, the book\u2014I was talking about masculinity. A) Jesus leveled the moral playing field: \r\n\r\nI know what you guys did. You don't know that I'm as guilty. It's not as obvious\u2014I'm not wearing the uniform\u2014but Jesus levels the playing field. He's like, \u201cIf you've hated someone,\u201d\u2014some people have hated people, but they don't have the guts or the wherewithal to go through with it\u2014they just didn't do it. But Jesus said, \u201cYou're just as guilty,\u201d\u2014so none of us\u2014we're all here. \r\n\r\nThe remarkable thing, again, is that Adam is responsible for millions of deaths. God wanted to walk the rest of his days with him. When they left the garden, God did not kick them out; and then, said, \u201cGoodbye.\u201d He kicked them out and went with them after they blew it for all of humanity. He clothed them in royal garments. I want you guys to know that you are still in that relationship with Him if you want to partner with Him. \r\n\r\nMost of those guys who came to the church\u2014if not all, but most were believers\u2014but they still\/we all need to hear that; because we\u2019re all ashamed of ourselves, without this covering. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:38:32):\r\n\r\nI\u2019m just picturing them\u2014imagining what they've done\u2014but Jesus clothing them with royal garments. How contrary that must be to what they hear the enemy speaking to them of their horrible crimes.\r\n\r\nDave (00:38:50):\r\n\r\nI\u2019m sure they heard it from their dad. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:38:52):\r\n\r\nYeah; \u201cSurely, you are not worthy of eternal life; because you have blown it.\u201d I'm just thinking of the enemy, the accuser, constantly saying, \u201cYou don't deserve anything.\u201d And yet, Jesus clothing them and wanting to walk with them. It's so contrary to the world.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:39:11):\r\n\r\nAnd when you talk to people about it\u2014it's not like: \u201cYou need to know this\u201d; it's more like: \u201cLet's just look at this thing together: \u2018How in the world? I don't deserve that either; nobody out there does.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014nobody.\r\n\r\nBrant: And they know that too; they're like: \u201cThere's bad people out there too.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:39:31):\r\n\r\n\u201cThey may not be in here, but they're still\u2026\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:39:33):\r\n\r\nNone of us. But the whole\u2014instead of make a presentation\u2014I think having the posture of: \u201cLet's all just marvel at this together,\u201d\u2014is probably a good posture for any church service, anytime. But in that environment, it's especially poignant; and it's instructive to me. \r\n\r\nThen, you develop a heart\u2014and you know what?\u2014the people who do prison ministry: I've heard this from people who do prison ministry; and they're like, \u201cYeah, Brant, it's the best thing ever.\u201d They're so excited about it.\u201d I didn't get it until then; and I'm like, \u201cOkay; now, I get it.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:40:15):\r\n\r\nWhy? Why?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:40:16):\r\n\r\nBecause of the honesty and the desperation.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:40:20):\r\n\r\nWhat else do they have?!\r\n\r\nBrant (00:40:22):\r\n\r\nRight! And so the desire to learn\/the hunger to learn\u2014guys were there, who weren't believers\u2014they just wanted to learn. One guy's like, \u201cI'm not a Christian; I want to ask you about this: \u2018How do you handle this and that?\u2019\u201d I'm like, \u201cHey, I appreciate that; I'll answer this question.\u201d They're like, \u201cOkay, I want to learn the thing\/I want to learn Scripture.\u201d The believers who are there: there's a hunger to learn. \r\n\r\nI know this, too, from experience, and even looking at Scripture, we know this: \u201cDesperate wins\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014\u201calways.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant: \u2014\"every time.\u201d If somebody's more desperate to get to Jesus, then they go to the front of the line\u2014if they want to cut through the ceiling\u2014and everybody else is like, \u201cYou can\u2019t do that!\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:40:58):\r\n\r\n\u2014if you want to grab His robe, just a tassel.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:41:00):\r\n\r\nAbsolutely; there's a huge crowd. And there's an important guy who just asked Jesus to heal his daughter. And then, she's so desperate to get to him that, now, the guy has to wait. The crowd disappears from the scene; the crowd's not even mentioned again. He's just laser-focused on this woman, who shouldn't even be there; but she's desperate. Desperate wins! \r\n\r\nThere's this awareness of God being here that we can miss, I think. I get it now. I'm sorry\u2014all the prison ministry people, listening to this\u2014and you're like, \u201cYeah, we know; I've been doing this for 20 years.\u201d It's incredible; I understand now.\r\n\r\nDave (00:41:40):\r\n\r\nWell, we try to cover up desperate.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:41:43):\r\n\r\nTotally.\r\n\r\nDave (00:41:44):\r\n\r\nThat makes us look weak and frail, and we want to be strong. \u201cI'm not desperate. That guy's desperate, but not me.\u201d I feel the same way about Celebrate Recovery in churches. Whenever I walk in that room, I\u2019m like, \u201cI'm with the most honest people in our church.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:41:59):\r\n\r\nYes, I agree.\r\n\r\nDave (00:42:00):\r\n\r\nThey've been to the bottom. They're not hiding anymore; their addiction's out. And they're like, \u201cOkay, help.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:42:06):\r\n\r\nRecovery Church is a church network that's really taken off across the country; it's amazing. But it's all people coming from addictions.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:42:14):\r\n\r\nWell, I'm even thinking of our listeners, who are desperate\u2014because their kids are just struggling\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014or their marriage.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014or they've walked away from their marriage; or someone's sick\u2014it can feel like the worst place ever to be. It feels like that. I've been there; I understand that. But there's also such a neediness that you're on your face before God, and that's the beauty of that place: \u201cWe can\u2019t do it, Lord, apart from You.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:42:40):\r\n\r\nThat's a good place to be. My understanding in my life\u2014I keep reading the Bible and keep seeing the same thing, over and over\u2014He draws closer to you because of that; He's close to the brokenhearted. He stores your tears in a bottle. I call that: \u201cThe desperation just wins with Him.\u201d \r\n\r\nI think, if you are in that sort of a situation\u2014and this is what I experienced in Recovery Church\u2014I remember they're singing. The worship band is all people who have come out of addictions. They're not paid; there's no paid staff; it's amazing. But there's this incredible visceral gratitude in the room and desperation. When you sing\u2014\u201cMy chains are gone; I've been set free,\u201d\u2014literally, their hands are raised. You see people\u2014they're belting it out\u2014it's not just words; it's not just going through the motions; but that's understanding I have, from Scriptures: \u201cThat is a great place to be. He is closer to us than ever\u201d; so you've got a different place with Him. \r\n\r\nThe other thing I've learned, too, in praying is you do feel desperate for your kids or something like that. Tell God\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:43:56):\r\n\r\nTell God everything.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:43:58):\r\n\r\n\u2014with that intensity. I pray for needs; I'm like, \u201cGod, I need this for my kid adults.\u201d I have something in mind: I've seen You do this for other people. You can do this for him. I know you can.\u201d We're having it out, and I think that's okay.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:44:15):\r\n\r\nMe too; I do that a lot. He wants that relationship. If He's walking with me, I'm talking about it. That's what He's saying: \u201cI want to talk and walk with you all the time.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:44:27):\r\n\r\nI feel like the prison example was a great example of that. These people are at a point\u2014and the fact that even I, and I'm not the guy who senses God's presence easily, or I don't use those words very much; I'm kind of a robot\u2014even I, in that prison, I'm like, \u201cOkay, there's something\u2014 \r\n\r\nDave (00:44:51):\r\n\r\nReally?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:44:51):\r\n\r\nYeah;\u2014\"God's here with these guys; it's the desperation.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:44:58):\r\n\r\nI tell you what: when you're in a community\u2014and people are desperate, and they're passionate about the answer to their desperation\u2014the unchurched guy is drawn to that. It's not the polish he's drawn to; he's drawn to the passion.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:45:12):\r\n\r\nTotally.\r\n\r\nDave (00:45:13):\r\n\r\nHe's drawn to: \u201cWhat do you have? Why are you excited about this? I want to know this like you do.\u201d You know what I'm saying? \r\n\r\nBrant (00:45:22):\r\n\r\nThere's a Spurgeon quote\u2014I'm not going to get it exactly right\u2014it's: \u201cSet yourself on fire, and people will come from miles around to watch you burn.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:45:29):\r\n\r\n\u201c\u2026watch you burn.\u201d I love that quote!\r\n\r\nBrant (00:45:31):\r\n\r\nYeah, there really is something to that. There's something so compelling when you see it; and then, you wish it didn't take those kind of straits to get us to be that passionate about how we've been forgiven, how good that is. I kind of want to live in that each day; I think it's doable. I think you learn more and more.\r\n\r\nDave (00:45:55):\r\n\r\nIf we could only get as excited about Jesus as we do our favorite team's touchdown. \r\n\r\nBrant (00:46:02):\r\n\r\nYou know what? I think we can. \r\n\r\nDave: I know. \r\n\r\nBrant: Our identity is wrapped up with our team. As our identity gets wrapped up with being a follower of Jesus, actually, you do get more excited about it.\r\n\r\nDave (00:46:12):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:46:13):\r\n\r\nLet me ask you\u2014because I'm still picturing these guys talk about feeling unworthy\u2014and feeling like, \u201cI don't deserve freedom; I don't deserve anything.\u201d I know there's listeners\u2014I used to feel like that: \u201cI'm so unworthy\u201d; because of what had happened to me,\u2014and I'm sure they have felt it, both: \u201c\u2026what had happened to me,\u201d and \u201cWhat I had done to others,\u201d\u2014there's this probably shame and unworthiness. As I'm thinking of our listeners, who they're imprisoned; but they're home. They're not in a prison; they're imprisoned. What would you say to them? Would you say the same things?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:46:48):\r\n\r\nYou've got the image of God stamped on you; and apparently, that's really important. It really is: His value for us is incalculable. What I don't want to do\u2014as somebody who struggles with the same thing or has struggled\u2014what I don't want to do is override God's opinion with mine. I want His opinion to matter more. \r\n\r\nI can look at myself, and I have a feeling that I'm a failure; I can have a feeling that I'm unworthy. Okay, that's a feeling\u2014again, warning lights on a dashboard\u2014that's what feelings are. But I have to return to the truth: \u201cThe truth is that God is covering me in royal garments, and He wants to partner with me in life. I'm not going to say, \u2018No,\u2019 to that. I'm not going to let my opinion of me overwhelm that. So I'm going to speak truth to myself.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:47:41):\r\n\r\nThat's good. What does that sound like?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:47:45):\r\n\r\nWell, it sounds like Lamentations as Jeremiah\u2014who's looking at everything being destroyed\u2014and he can see it; his nation's being destroyed. He says, \u201cYet, I call this to mind; and therefore, I have hope. Because of the Lord's great love for us, we are not consumed. His mercies are new every morning. So whatever I've done, great is Your faithfulness, O Lord.\u201d But he has to tell himself that.\r\n\r\nDavid says, \u201cWhy are you so downcast, o my soul? Put your trust in God.\u201d Or he says, \u201cI'm afraid, so I'll praise God again.\u201d It's like these are human emotions. Shame is a very human thing to feel, but I want to replace my perception with God's reality. That does take us having a change, having a renewed mind. That does start with what I pay attention to. I need to be paying attention to things that are actually life-giving\u2014and true things that I can, just like the Scripture I was just quoting\u2014I can bring that to mind, to say, \u201cBrant, you're not a failure. You don't need to be ashamed of yourself. His mercies are new every morning.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:48:50):\r\n\r\n\u201cYou\u2019ve been clothed in righteousness.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant: Yes!\r\n\r\nDave (00:48:52):\r\n\r\nIn some ways, I remember in seminary, our president, Ron Jensen, talking about \r\n\r\nPsalm 103: \u201cBless the Lord, O my soul.\u201d You mentioned the song. Who did that song?\u2014 [singing]\u2014Bless the Lord.\r\n\r\nAudio Room (00:49:05):\r\n\r\nMatt Redman.\r\n\r\nAnn: Matt Redmond.\r\n\r\nDave (00:49:05):\r\n\r\nMatt Redmond.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:49:06):\r\n\r\nThank you.\r\n\r\nDave (00:49:07):\r\n\r\nIn some ways, what Ron was saying\u2014I'll never forget this; this is 40-some years ago\u2014he says, \u201cSometimes, I get in the shower in the morning; and I don't want to bless the Lord. My feelings are just dead; they're not passionate. And you know what I do?\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:49:21):\r\n\r\n\u2014doing.\r\n\r\nDave (00:49:21):\r\n\r\n[Singing] \u201cBless the Lord, o my soul. Come on soul! Bless the Lord.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant: Right.\r\n\r\nDave: Brandon Lake's Gratitude worship song is another song [singing]: \u201cCome on my soul; don't you get shy on me.\u201d That's a Psalm. He's like, \u201cCome on soul; let's go!\u201d\u2014I don't feel it; it doesn't matter.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:49:38):\r\n\r\n\u201cIt doesn't matter; do it anyway.\u201d \r\n\r\nDave (00:49:39):\r\n\r\n\u201cWe\u2019re going to bless the Lord right now. He's amazing! He's done great things. I'm going to bless the Lord.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:49:43):\r\n\r\nWe know this from psychology too: your feelings follow from your behavior so often. You can worship your way into feeling warm feelings.\r\n\r\nDave (00:49:53):\r\n\r\nTruth your way in. \r\n\r\nBrant (00:49:55):\r\n\r\nRight; right. You really do; it changes. You do something nice for somebody; you love them more. \r\n\r\nAnn: It's true!\r\n\r\nBrant: They\u2019ll feel something, so that's just a genius way. Again, it it's laid out in Scripture that way: \u201cWhy are you so downcast?\u201d and \u201cYou praise God,\u201d\u2014not because God needs it: He's feeling lonely today; He's feeling down in the dumps; tell Him He's great\u2014that's not why; it's for you, so that you don't have to be nervous.\r\n\r\nAnn: It\u2019s a reminder.\r\n\r\nDave (00:50:17):\r\n\r\nGet your soul where the truth is. \r\n\r\nAlright; we got a question from the peanut gallery\u2014our producer, Jim Mitchell; our audio engineer, Bruce Goff\u2014they're sitting in there. I have a feeling, because they texted me, that they want to ask you a question about something.\r\n\r\nJim (00:50:34):\r\n\r\nJust dying to ask a question; this happens every time you come, Brant. You get this room in here all worked up. You say provocative things. We mean it as a compliment. \r\n\r\nTo follow up on the earlier part of the conversation, where you were talking about the way of Jesus being easier. I'm not thinking that's what you mean. I'm not thinking \u201ceasy\u201d is the right word. I think what you're saying is: \u201cIt's hard, but it's better.\u201d I want to just make sure I'm understanding, because I've not found following Jesus to necessarily be easy. I know there's a lot of listeners and viewers who wouldn't characterize their walk with Jesus as easy. And even the verse you quoted, Matthew 7:14, there are several translations that say: \u201cHow narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life.\u201d Speak to that listener, who has found it difficult; and yet, probably better.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:51:33):\r\n\r\nWhen it says narrow is the way\u2014or \u201cdifficult\u201d\u2014if you go into the Greek, you're going to see \u201cnarrow\u201d again; it's the same word. I find it very interesting that we have this orthodoxy that even influences how we translate the Bible. For example, there's translations of the Bible: when Jesus says, \u201cDon't be angry,\u201d\u2014they insert\/a scribe, maybe centuries later, inserted \u201cunless for good reason.\u201d That shows up in King James version and some other stuff. But now, a there's an asterisk: \u201cActually, that's not in the original.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:52:07):\r\n\r\nSo how would \u201cNarrow is the gate\u201d read?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:52:09):\r\n\r\nWell, it says\u2014it doesn't say \u201cdifficult\u201d; it says \u201cnarrow,\u201d\u2014again.\r\n\r\nDave: Oh; \u201cNarrow is the gate.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant: You can do a\u2014 \r\n\r\nAnn (00:52:15):\r\n\r\nYou got a bad translation, Jim!\r\n\r\nJim (00:52:17):\r\n\r\nNo; I mean, I hear that. But there's some pretty smart guys on the ESV and the NET Bible. They're taking the text seriously, and they're translating it that way. They\u2019re not just\u2014\r\n\r\nBrant (00:52:26):\r\n\r\nOkay, here's the other thing: I'm not saying either path is easy. I'm saying, \u201cThis is easier.\u201d I absolutely believe that it is easier; I do believe it to be.\r\n\r\nJim (00:52:35):\r\n\r\nThis seems to be kind of a life message for you right now: that there are physiological benefits, and psychological and relational benefits to actually following Jesus, in the path of Jesus. He was gracious to call us into following Him. It's not all bad news; it's good news. \r\n\r\nI'm just wondering, experientially\u2014when people have found it difficult\u2014you're still saying, \u201cBut it's good, and it's actually better than what you would be experiencing if you weren't following Jesus.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:53:04):\r\n\r\nYes; if you see it clearly, you will go for it; because it\u2019s a great deal.\r\n\r\nDave (00:53:07):\r\n\r\nPlay it out in some areas. You already talked about forgiveness. It's easier to forgive.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:53:13):\r\n\r\n\u2014than live a life of unforgiveness.\r\n\r\nDave (00:53:13):\r\n\r\nIt's more difficult to do, but it's a lot worse not to.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:53:17):\r\n\r\n\u2014at first; but then, actually, it gets easier over time as you grow.\r\n\r\nDave (00:53:21):\r\n\r\nHow about \u201cresist sin.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:53:24):\r\n\r\nAgain, it gets easier as you go. \r\n\r\nDave (00:53:26):\r\n\r\nBecause people say, \u201cNo, that's hard; I can't!\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:53:30):\r\n\r\nAt first, sure; sure. Timothy Jennings is a neuroscientist and a believer. I don\u2019t know if you've interviewed him.\r\n\r\nDave (00:53:37):\r\n\r\nNo.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:53:38):\r\n\r\nHe wrote a book called The God\u2014I can't remember\u2014The God-Shaped Brain. He uses a great example. He was tempted to smoke cigarettes when he was in middle school. His mom told him not to; and then, he did. He got busted, and then he tried not to. Then, he stumbled and fell. Then, he's like, \u201cYou know what? I don't have a problem with that anymore. It would be weird if I called my mom every day to go, \u2018I didn't have a cigarette yesterday\u2019\u201d; because I'm a non-smoker. It's not on my plate anymore\u2014I've grown out of that\u2014it's not a thing. \r\n\r\nThat is very doable in life where it becomes an easier response because you have changed, as a person. It's all about who you're becoming. So with sin, you can go, \u201cYeah, it's hard for me to not\u2026\u201d\u2014if you're caught up in something\u2014it's hard for me to not do that. But actually, if you change your schedule, and go through that narrow way, it becomes easier as the farther away you are from it. And then, living a life, without being a slave to that, is an easier way of life.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:54:54):\r\n\r\nThat's what I just wrote down: \u201cWithout Christ, you're a slave to your desires.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:54:59):\r\n\r\nYou're a slave to your desires; that is your flesh. So being freed from that is actually an easier way to live than being a slave. In fact, being a slave to your desires will make life pretty miserable.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:55:08):\r\n\r\nExactly.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:55:09):\r\n\r\nSo this is an easier way to live. You do have to deny yourself\u2014so both ways can be hard\u2014both guys had to build the house; but in life, it's actually going to turn out to be an easier, lighter way. Even if there are difficulties, it's easier than the alternatives.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:55:25):\r\n\r\n\u2014because the storm is coming to both houses. \r\n\r\nBrant (00:55:30):\r\n\r\nAbsolutely. \r\n\r\nAnn: The rain falls on the just, and the unjust.\r\n\r\nBrant: And destruction is coming.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:55:32):\r\n\r\n\u2014for all of us.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:55:32):\r\n\r\nWell, destruction is coming for the wide way; that's not easier.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:55:36):\r\n\r\nAnd hard things happen, no matter what's going on; because through the adversity, God is shaping us, but He's with us in it. \r\n\r\nDave (00:55:46):\r\n\r\nMy journey with alcohol\u2014would match exactly what you said\u2014my dad was an alcoholic; my mom was alcoholic. Before I was a believer, I'm going to every party and I'm drinking. And then, when I come to Christ, and I want to stop this. I'm not drinking to have a drink; I'm drinking to get drunk\u2014that was why I drank\u2014it wasn't: \u201cHave a glass of wine\u201d; it was; \u201cHave five.\u201d \r\n\r\nI thought, \u201cMan, this is hard. I can't go to a bar. If I go to a bar, I fall.\u201d I did it a couple times; and I'm like, \u201cI can't go to a bar\u201d; and so I never did; I stopped. I go to a party, and they'd hand me a beer; and I'm like\u2014I felt it was hard\u2014guess what? I go to a bar now; no problem. \r\n\r\nBrant (00:56:28):\r\n\r\nYeah, you\u2019re a different person.\r\n\r\nDave (00:56:29):\r\n\r\nI\u2019m a different person; there's no desire. If somebody stuck a beer in hand, I say, \u201cNo thanks.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:56:31):\r\n\r\nIt's just not a\u2014but being an alcoholic is really hard.\r\n\r\nDave (00:56:35):\r\n\r\nYeah, yeah. It\u2019s really destructive.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:56:38):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nAnn (00:56:38):\r\n\r\nBeing a slave to your desires is hard.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:56:40):\r\n\r\nYeah, that is the alternative.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:56:40):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:56:41):\r\n\r\nSo again, there's a cost of discipleship But even if you read The Cost of Discipleship by a Bonhoeffer, he allows that this is an easier way to live. The cost of non-discipleship is higher. So I guess that's how I would put it. There's a cost\u2014the pearl costs something; the treasure in the field costs something\u2014but if you see it, you're like, \u201cI want that,\u201d\u2014not because it's going to make your life harder. The pearl merchant is not buying the thing that\u2019s going to make his life worse. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:57:10):\r\n\r\nBut he\u2019ll be richer.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:57:11):\r\n\r\nIt makes it richer and better; there are blessings that will flow from it. There's innumerable examples; that's a great example. But also just like being able to forgive people. Other people can't; they\u2019re stuck with it. Whatever happens in traffic now determines\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:57:25):\r\n\r\n\u2014their mood for the day.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:57:26):\r\n\r\n\u2014the day That takes a toll on your body. That's a harder way to live. \r\n\r\nSo that would be my counter to that. I don't know if it makes sense, but I actually think when Jesus is saying that His yoke is lighter and easier, that He actually means that. But it is narrow; it is narrow.\r\n\r\nJim (00:57:50):\r\n\r\nI agree. Just not being afraid of death has physiological\u2014I'm going to sleep better; my relationships are going to be better\u2014I get it. I just worry a little bit about there is a narrow way and there is a cost. There were people that left because that saying is hard. The disciples even pushed back, and said, \u201cWhat about us? We've left these things too.\u201d And He says, \u201cIn the kingdom, you'll receive a return.\u201d They were feeling a valid hardship to discipleship. \r\n\r\nI know your heart; I know what you're saying all of it; not either\/or. That\u2019s what I was trying to interact with. \r\n\r\nBrant (00:58:58):\r\n\r\nWhen He sent the disciples out to share the good news, what was that?\r\n\r\nDave (00:59:07):\r\n\r\nWhat do you mean?\r\n\r\nBrant (00:59:08):\r\n\r\nWell, Jesus sent His disciples out to share the good news. What were they saying?\r\n\r\nDave (00:59:11):\r\n\r\nOh; \u201cThe kingdom of God is at hand.\u201d\r\n\r\nBrant (00:59:15):\r\n\r\nYes; \u201cIt's available; it's open for business.\u201d It's going to make your life worse? Or you can step into the kingdom now, and it's a rich and satisfying life that's lighter.\r\n\r\nJim (00:59:27):\r\n\r\nThanks, Brant, for letting us interact with you around it. You got us thinking. It's very provocative,\u2014\r\n\r\nBrant (00:59:32):\r\n\r\nGood.\r\n\r\nJim (00:59:33):\r\n\r\n\u2014in a good way.\r\n\r\nBrant (00:59:34):\r\n\r\nI do like that. And it's also good for me to hear your responses; I appreciate your judgments on it. It helps me to be a better communicator.\r\n\r\nJim (00:59:44):\r\n\r\nSo send your emails to Brant Hansen at FamilyLife.com.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014at FamilyLife.com; yeah. \r\n\r\nJim (00:59:49):\r\n\r\nExactly! \r\n\r\nBrant: Get a quick apology.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:59:55):\r\n\r\nHey, thanks for watching. If you liked this episode,\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (00:59:58):\r\n\r\nYou better like it.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:59:59):\r\n\r\n\u2014just hit that \u201cLike\u201d button.\r\n\r\nDave (01:00:00):\r\n\r\nAnd we'd like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the \u201cSubscribe\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\ncan't say the word, \u201csubscribe\u201d\u2014hit the \u201cSubscribe\u201d button. I don't think I can say this \r\n\r\nword! \r\n\r\nAnn: I can subscribe. \r\n\r\nDave: Look at that! You say it so easily. \u201cSubscribe\u201d; there he goes!\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife.com                                 \r\n\r\n\n","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/317211","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=317211"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/312569"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=317211"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=317211"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=317211"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=317211"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=317211"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=317211"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}