{"id":317198,"date":"2025-08-19T04:35:40","date_gmt":"2025-08-19T08:35:40","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/every-time-i-pray-i-realize-im-the-problem-bruce-maria-goff-arlene-pellicane\/"},"modified":"2025-08-19T04:35:41","modified_gmt":"2025-08-19T08:35:41","slug":"every-time-i-pray-i-realize-im-the-problem-bruce-maria-goff-arlene-pellicane","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/every-time-i-pray-i-realize-im-the-problem-bruce-maria-goff-arlene-pellicane\/","title":{"rendered":"Every Time I Pray, I Realize I\u2019m the Problem | Bruce + Maria Goff, Arlene Pellicane"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Are you in the thick of raising young kids and wondering how to keep your marriage thriving? Join Dave and Ann Wilson on this lively &#8220;Wilson Original&#8221; episode of FamilyLife Today as they welcome author Arlene Pellicane and the candid Bruce and Maria Goff, parents of four young girls. From essential communication and shared responsibilities to the power of laughter and prayer, discover real-life strategies to strengthen your bond. Even with busy schedules, Arlene, Bruce, and Maria share how to prioritize your relationship and find joy in the journey.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Are you in the thick of raising young kids and wondering how to keep your marriage thriving? Join Dave and Ann Wilson on this lively &#8220;Wilson Original&#8221; episode of FamilyLife Today as they welcome author Arlene Pellicane and the candid Bruce and Maria Goff, parents of four young girls. From essential communication and shared responsibilities to the power of laughter and prayer, discover real-life strategies to strengthen your bond.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":312569,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/f2c727c8-4213-4053-b693-b32501553bb7\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:59:40","filesize":"54.66M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2809,2082],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[3382,11034],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-317198","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-commitment","category-communication","cwp_profile-arlene-pellicane","cwp_profile-bruce-and-maria-goff","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2025\/02\/image_bbee74.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/317198\/every-time-i-pray-i-realize-im-the-problem-bruce-maria-goff-arlene-pellicane","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/317198\/every-time-i-pray-i-realize-im-the-problem-bruce-maria-goff-arlene-pellicane","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"frajslr4Gs\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/every-time-i-pray-i-realize-im-the-problem-bruce-maria-goff-arlene-pellicane\/\">Every Time I Pray, I Realize I\u2019m the Problem | Bruce + Maria Goff, Arlene Pellicane<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/every-time-i-pray-i-realize-im-the-problem-bruce-maria-goff-arlene-pellicane\/embed\/#?secret=frajslr4Gs\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Every Time I Pray, I Realize I\u2019m the Problem | Bruce + Maria Goff, Arlene Pellicane&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"frajslr4Gs\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["f2c727c8-4213-4053-b693-b32501553bb7"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/f2c727c8-4213-4053-b693-b32501553bb7\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:59:40"],"filesize":["54.66M"],"_thumbnail_id":["312569"],"show_notes":["\n<ul>\n<li>Learn more about Arlene on her website at <a href=\"https:\/\/arlenepellicane.com\/\">arlenepellicane.com<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Does your marriage need prayers? <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/content-offers\/marriage-prayers\/\">Grab your prayers now. Just tell us where to send them.<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-08-19.pdf"],"transcript_content":["\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nGive Your Marriage a Diagnostic Check-up\r\n\r\nGuests: Arlene Pellicane and Bruce and Maria Goff\r\n\r\nRelease Date: August 19, 2025\r\n\r\nAnn (00:00):\r\n\r\nWhen we're not doing well, I do not want to pray; because God confronts our sin and brokenness.\r\n\r\nBruce (00:06):\r\n\r\nIt's like instant: \u201cGod, oh, okay; I see where I'm wrong.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cIt\u2019s me again!\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce: \u201cI'm certain it's a 100 percent her fault\u201d; and then, \u201cLord, oh.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:25):\r\n\r\nOkay; so today, we're going to do a Wilson Original; but because we've run out of original material, we brought some people in to help us. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:34):\r\n\r\nFirst of all, we have Arlene Pellicane with us, who has volunteered to come in.\r\n\r\nArlene: \u201cI want to be part of the Wilson Original.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:42):\r\n\r\nYou're sitting in the middle between two couples. It's like you're a counselor.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:46):\r\n\r\nShe\u2019s a therapist. \r\n\r\nArlene (00:47):\r\n\r\n\u201cThe therapist is in\u201d; not really.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:48):\r\n\r\nArlene, tell us\u2014you've written several books\u2014tell us about those. \r\n\r\nArlene (00:55):\r\n\r\nI write about marriage and parenting: Screen Kids, if you're having trouble with technology; Parents Rising, if you're having trouble because your kids are bossing you around; and Making Marriage Easier if you want to make it easier. Those would be the three I would point people to. \r\n\r\nAnn (01:10):\r\n\r\nShe\u2019s really good to be able to be sitting in this with us.\r\n\r\nDave (01:13):\r\n\r\nI'm looking over to Bruce and Maria Goff, who are with us. They hit each other: \u201cWe need all those books.\u201d \r\n\r\nBruce: I was thinking, \u201cCheck, check, and check; yes.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (01:22):\r\n\r\nOkay; give us a little hint: let our listeners and viewers hear about your family, the stage of life you're in.\r\n\r\nBruce (01:29):\r\n\r\nWe've both nodded at each other. We've got four girls. We've been married 12 years. We've got four girls: nine, six, three, and zero. They are precious, and we love them very much.\r\n\r\nDave (01:40):\r\n\r\nIt sounds like you're convincing yourself. Your job is inside the studio, usually on the other side of that glass.\r\n\r\nBruce (01:47):\r\n\r\nYeah; I had to show Jim, my boss, how to do my job right before I came in here. Took all of three-and-a-half seconds: \u201cPress this button and this button. \r\n\r\nDave: I don't think so; you make it sound\u2014 \r\n\r\nBruce: \u201cAnd then, don't press another button until we're done.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (01:58):\r\n\r\nBut some of our listeners have heard you guys before, because you are honest; you are frank. And when you were in here before\u2014and we've recorded you, Maria\u2014what were we talking about?\r\n\r\nMaria (02:08):\r\n\r\nKeeping score: \u201cHappy couples keep score.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (02:11):\r\n\r\nOh, yeah. \r\n\r\nBruce: But they keep score, positively, of the other person. \r\n\r\nDave: That's no fun. \r\n\r\nBruce: I know; I'm so good at the other one!\r\n\r\nAnn (02:20):\r\n\r\nI just love that you guys are in it\u2014in terms of being parents of [the stage] your kids are in\u2014I think you're in the hardest phase of marriage.\r\n\r\nDave (02:30):\r\n\r\nI'm just glad we're not in it anymore; that's all I got to say.\r\n\r\nAnn: Arlene, how old are your kids? \r\n\r\nArlene: They're 15, 18, 20. We do have kind of a nice bridge here going on.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes. Do you think that they're in the hardest phase of marriage? \r\n\r\nArlene: You are in the busiest; because you are still thinking: \u201cDo we have the diaper bag?\u201d \u201cDo we have the sippy cup?\u201d \u201cThis person needs their food cut\u201d; it is intense. You are totally in the intensity.\r\n\r\nDave (02:52):\r\n\r\n\u201cDo I still like my husband?\u201d \u201cDo I still like my wife?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (02:54):\r\n\r\nI think you're in the biggest comparison; in terms of: \u201cWhose life is harder?\u201d and \u201cWhose life is easier?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: Do you guys feel it?\r\n\r\nBruce (02:59):\r\n\r\nOh, yeah; it's not really a contest. But it's funny you talking about remembering the bag of the diapers and stuff. If we forget a paci, my brain automatically: \u201cIt's her fault,\u201d as if I couldn't have also remembered to bring a paci; but \u201cYou forgot a paci?!\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (03:16):\r\n\r\nIs that what happens?\r\n\r\nMaria (03:18):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nDave (03:19):\r\n\r\nReally? Your brain doesn't go that way?\r\n\r\nMaria (03:21):\r\n\r\nNo; I do blame him for everything you're saying.\r\n\r\nDave (03:25):\r\n\r\nI thought you were going to say \u201csome things.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (03:26):\r\n\r\nNo, I don't expect him to remember the baby stuff. I do mentally feel like I register that: \u201cI'm in charge of collecting the baby things, going out the door.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (03:35):\r\n\r\nBut Maria, you're also homeschooling.\r\n\r\nMaria (03:37):\r\n\r\nYes, I am. [Sigh]\r\n\r\nAnn (03:38):\r\n\r\nDid you hear the sigh?\u2014\u201cYes, I am.\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene: \u2014followed by the giggling. \r\n\r\nAnn: So what are we talking about with these guys?\r\n\r\nDave (03:43):\r\n\r\nWell, I want to ask you guys another question, now, we're here: \u201cDo you guys play the \u201cWhose Life Is Harder\u201d game?\r\n\r\nMaria (03:50):\r\n\r\nWe do.\r\n\r\nBruce (03:50):\r\n\r\nYes, we do; actually, yes. \r\n\r\nMaria: We do.\r\n\r\nDave (03:53):\r\n\r\nYou're in that stage; I know we did.\r\n\r\nAnn (03:54):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s obvious whose life is harder. \r\n\r\nMaria: But I think\u2014yeah, when he said that a while ago\u2014I was thinking, \u201cYou are saying that it is me, right?!\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (04:03):\r\n\r\nIn some ways, having a newborn\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria (04:06):\r\n\r\nWhen you say, \u201cIt\u2019s no contest.\u201d \r\n\r\nBruce (04:06):\r\n\r\n\u2014makes our marriage better because there's no contest. I'm like, \u201cYou're doing more\u201d; you know what I mean? It puts us in that good keeping-track-of-score thing. We're very healthy at this point. It's when they get older, then I'm like, \u201cI feel like I'm doing more.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (04:18):\r\n\r\nWell, honestly, I don't necessarily feel like maybe I am doing more\u2014I don't think of it in terms of I'm doing more\u2014I think of it in terms of: \u201cNo, I am not doing more; but I have more of the mental load.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, interesting. \r\n\r\nMaria: There's stuff that I carry around in my head that he doesn't ever have to think about.\r\n\r\nAnn: Like what?\r\n\r\nMaria: I'm planning for meals; I'm planning lessons; I'm keeping track of schedules; I'm keeping track of medications and dosages\u2014all of those things that he has no idea\u2014if I'm leaving the house, he's like, \u201cHow much does this person get of this?\u2014and whatever\u2014and \u201cIf this happens\u2026\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (04:53):\r\n\r\nYou call your kids \u201cthis person\u201d?\r\n\r\nMaria (04:54):\r\n\r\nIf somebody gets sick, he's like, \u201cWhat do I give them?\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (04:57):\r\n\r\nYeah, but I make my own breakfast; okay? \r\n\r\nMaria: That's true; it's true. \r\n\r\nBruce: It\u2019s Nick Bargatze: \u201cI do my own laundry.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (05:04):\r\n\r\nBut do you have your own list of things in your head, Bruce?\u2014\"Can we make it financially?\u201d \u201cWhat's going on with my job?\u201d \r\n\r\nBruce (05:11):\r\n\r\nYes; \u201cWho's been keeping up with the fertilizer in the yard?\u201d You asked me the other day, \u201cHave we been keeping up?\u201d \u201cYes, we have!\u201d \r\n\r\nMaria (05:17):\r\n\r\nThis is true. \r\n\r\nAnn: Arlene, does that change, do you think, as your kids get older of keeping track?\r\n\r\nArlene (05:21):\r\n\r\nI don't think so. It just continues in that new season\u2014whatever season you're at\u2014you're kind of that way. But it made me think of Pam and Bill Farrel\u2014about the waffles and spaghetti\u2014because the man is just thinking more simply. The male brain is more like: \u201cI need to go to work,\u201d \u201cI need to go pick that up.\u201d The woman has\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: Hey, you didn't have to make it sound dumb [speaking slowly]: \u201cI just have to\u2026\u201d \r\n\r\nBruce: \u201cMe have to go\u2026\u201d \r\n\r\nArlen: We better edit that out. I better\/that's my male impression! \r\n\r\nBut the woman's got a whole big plate of spaghetti on her head; she\u2019s thinking about all these different things all the time. I kind of feel like we, women, just think about things a lot more. \r\n\r\nAnn: And then, as they get older, now you're thinking relational stuff with your kids: \u201cHow are they feeling about their teacher?\u201d and \u201cThat girl who was mean to them.\u201d Now, it becomes this whole relational bundle.\r\n\r\nArlene (06:12):\r\n\r\nThen the husband often is like, \u201cWho's that again?\u201d And then, it's like, \u201cWell that's that friend from the biology class.\u201d \u201cI have no idea who this person is.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (06:19):\r\n\r\nOne of our sons said to Dave, \u201cKnow the people in the game, Dad.\r\n\r\nDave (06:23):\r\n\r\nYou don't have to bring that up.\r\n\r\nAnn (06:24):\r\n\r\n\u201cKnow our friends' names.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (06:27):\r\n\r\nI still don't know their names, and they were in our house all the time. \r\n\r\nDo you feel like\u2014because I, Bruce, I wasn\u2019t like you\u2014I always thought my job was harder\u2014even though, obviously, hers was harder\u2014especially, with three boys under five and a baby in the house. I'm coming in like, \u201cOh, I had such a hard day. I was in a meeting, and I had to go to lunch with this guy.\u201d She's like, \u201cYou went to lunch with somebody?\u201d \r\n\r\nBruce: \u201cQuit grumbling.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: I'm like, \u201cNo, no; I didn't go out today.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (06:53):\r\n\r\n\u201cYou didn't have to cut up anybody's food? What was that like?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (06:56):\r\n\r\nBut I actually had this perception that: \u201cWhat I'm carrying is a lot heavier than yours. You have babies.\u201d I didn't realize it was a lot harder for her, and she wasn't homeschooling! Oh, my goodness!\r\n\r\nBruce (07:07):\r\n\r\nI had to text her the other day; I was like, \u201cOh, I hate doing this, but can I borrow the car? We're having a meeting at Starbucks.\u201d I go home; take the car: \u201cSee ya!\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (07:20):\r\n\r\nActually, you ended up riding with Bobby.\r\n\r\nBruce (07:22):\r\n\r\nOh, that's right. Yeah, never mind.\r\n\r\nMaria (07:24):\r\n\r\nHe worked it out.\r\n\r\nBruce (07:24):\r\n\r\nBobby came through again; that's true.\r\n\r\nDave (07:26):\r\n\r\nDid you have some story\u2014I don't even know what it was about\u2014you moving a tree?\r\n\r\nBruce (07:29):\r\n\r\nOh, yeah. \r\n\r\nMaria: I asked him to go get a tomato plant from my friend, who was moving away. He and Jim come back with this tree! I'm like, \u201cWhat the heck is this?\u201d He's like\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: You just wanted a little plant? \r\n\r\nMaria: \u201cYou said the big plant; you said the big huge one.\u201d I'm like, \u201cThis is not\u2026Do you know what a tomato plant\u2026\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (07:47):\r\n\r\nThe one we took didn't even belong to the people.\r\n\r\nArlene: What?!\r\n\r\n[Unintelligible cross talking]\r\n\r\nAnn (07:50):\r\n\r\nSo wait; wait, Maria. \r\n\r\nBruce: She said like three or four times\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014\u201cBring home that tomato plant,\u201d\u2014 and they come home with a potted tree?\r\n\r\nBruce (07:56):\r\n\r\nAnd three or four times, I'm like, \u201cThat\u2019s not\/you think that's going to fit our car?!\u201d She's like, \u201cI don't know: if you push the seat back.\u201d I'm like, \u201cOkay, I'm going to have to get Jim and his truck for that.\u201d I'm pointing at the tomato plant.\r\n\r\nBruce: There was no pointing. We were inside; and I said, \u201cThe big one?\u201d And you said, \u201cYeah.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (08:12):\r\n\r\nThat was right next to us; the big huge one, yes.\r\n\r\nBruce (08:14):\r\n\r\nI don't remember any pointing going on. \r\n\r\nMaria (08:17):\r\n\r\n\u201cOver there, the big huge one.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce: It was just: \u201c\u2026the big one.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria: \u2014\"the one with the tomatoes on it.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (08:19):\r\n\r\nI think Jim made a great point at the time. \r\n\r\nArlene: It literally had tomatoes on it? \r\n\r\nBruce: Jim said, \u201cWho's dumber: me for not knowing what a tomato plant looks like? Or you for thinking I know what a tomato plant looks like?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (08:30):\r\n\r\nI can't believe two guys did this.\r\n\r\nAnn (08:31):\r\n\r\nSo wait, wait, wait. Did it have tomatoes on it?\r\n\r\nMaria (08:34):\r\n\r\nYes! \r\n\r\nDave: Well, there you go.\r\n\r\nAnn: Bruce! Bruce! \r\n\r\nBruce: I don't know how tomatoes grow. I assume: \u201cIt's just out of season right now.\u201d I don't know! \r\n\r\nDave: I still don't know. I don\u2019t know what you\u2019re saying. \r\n\r\nMaria: He stole the neighbor\u2019s tree. \r\n\r\nArlene: Oh, my.\r\n\r\nMaria: Fortunately,\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: Did you take it back?\r\n\r\nBruce: I brought it back within five minutes. \r\n\r\nMaria:Fortunately, they had already moved away.\r\n\r\nBruce (08:51):\r\n\r\nYes, so it was all good.\r\n\r\nMaria (08:51):\r\n\r\nSo there's nobody in the house.\r\n\r\nBruce (08:53):\r\n\r\nThrew out our backs.\r\n\r\nMaria (08:53):\r\n\r\nNobody actually knew that they stole it. Unless they check their Ring camera or something.\r\n\r\nAnn (08:57):\r\n\r\nWell, here's where we want to go today\u2014not that all that wasn't great\u2014but we have some questions to diagnose the health\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (09:06):\r\n\r\nThese are \u201cTen Diagnostic Questions [for Your Marriage]\u201d\u2014for you and your spouse from Kevin DeYoung. He wrote a blog about it. We're going to go through some of his diagnostics and just hear what you guys have to say. Although\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce (09:17):\r\n\r\nYou could have used these on your tenth anniversary. \r\n\r\nDave (09:20):\r\n\r\nWe could have.\r\n\r\nDave (09:21):\r\n\r\nWe could have, Bruce.\r\n\r\nDave: Thanks for bringing that up\u2014\r\n\r\nArlene (09:23):\r\n\r\nHe's like, \u201cYou brought up the tomato plant; I\u2019m going here!\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (09:26):\r\n\r\n\u2014the day my wife said, \u201cOur marriage is over.\u201d\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nBruce (09:28):\r\n\r\nBecause you thought you were 9.9, and she thought you were a 0.3?\r\n\r\nAnn (09:33):\r\n\r\n\u20140.5; 0.5.\r\n\r\nDave (09:34):\r\n\r\nAt the beginning of this blog\u2014see how I'm transitioning?\u2014he talks about laughter, which isn't even one of the ten; but he says: \u201cThe couple that laughs together lasts together.\u201d \r\n\r\nArlene: I like that. \r\n\r\nDave: Agree, disagree?\r\n\r\nMaria (09:47):\r\n\r\nAgree. \r\n\r\nArlene: Hardy agreement.\r\n\r\nMaria: The times that we have really cracked up together\u2014whatever\u2014we're like, \u201cWe need to do this more.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (09:55):\r\n\r\nArlene, you write about that in your latest book.\r\n\r\nArlene (09:56):\r\n\r\nYou have to have fun together. One of those decisions to make marriage easier is: \u201cTake fun seriously.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (10:03):\r\n\r\nDid you guys do that when you had kids\u2014when they were our\u2019s ages?\u2014like young, under ten. \r\n\r\nAnn (10:08):\r\n\r\nWe went on dates.\r\n\r\nBruce (10:08):\r\n\r\nYeah, prioritize fun.\r\n\r\nDave (10:10):\r\n\r\nWe went on dates; and then, we did fun stuff with the kids.\r\n\r\nAnn (10:13):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nBruce: Oh, yeah. \r\n\r\nDave (10:14):\r\n\r\nWe rented an RV.\r\n\r\nBruce: You guys were like the funnest\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: We did an RV-trip. I didn't want to do it, because it's going to cost money; and they are some of the greatest memories we've ever had.\r\n\r\nAnn (10:22):\r\n\r\nMaking memories is really big for us. It was when our kids were little.\r\n\r\nDave: We had woods behind our house. We put a tent in the middle of the woods, and we slept out there on Friday nights sometimes. My oldest son, who's now an IT with Sharper Image, literally got an extension cord\u2014300 or 400; 500 of them\u2014brought a TV out into the woods. We're like, \u201cWe're not watching TV.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: We watched a war movie.\r\n\r\nDave: \u201cLet's watch war movies out here and pretend we're cowboys in there.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (10:45):\r\n\r\nThen, in the middle of the night\u2014we're in the middle of these woods\u2014in Michigan, there's so many deer. You can hear this snorting sound.\r\n\r\nDave (10:53):\r\n\r\nDid you know deer do that?\r\n\r\nAnn (10:55):\r\n\r\nYou guys,\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (10:55):\r\n\r\nI'm scared to death.\r\n\r\nBruce: I would have thought it was a wild boar.\r\n\r\nArlene: (10:58):\r\n\r\nAfter the war movie, and you\u2019re in the tent?\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes, Arlene! We're all in the tent. \r\n\r\nDave: I didn't even want to look out. I was like, \u201cI don't even want to see what\u2019s out there.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: All I can envision is this buck, with his big antlers. It's in the fall, so he's got his antlers. \r\n\r\nDave: You think they're going to rush the tent: \u201cWhat's this tent doing in my woods?\u201d And they're going to rush us.\r\n\r\nAnn (11:15):\r\n\r\nSo what do you do?\u2014you laugh. You either laugh or you cry, and we laughed. It's awful! So I think that's true: laughter.\r\n\r\nDave (11:23):\r\n\r\nLet's talk about ten questions to diagnose the health of your marriage [\u201cTen Diagnostic Questions for Your Marriage\u201d]. \r\n\r\nBruce: Was that one of them?\r\n\r\nAnn (11:27):\r\n\r\nNo.\r\n\r\nBruce (11:27):\r\n\r\nNo, we haven\u2019t even got to that.\r\n\r\nAnn: We still haven\u2019t gotten one. \r\n\r\nDave: That was just part of it. \r\n\r\nArlene: Going slow. \r\n\r\nDave: That's the 11th one, I guess. \r\n\r\nThe first one Kevin mentions is: \u201cDo you pray together? Healthy marriages pray together.\u201d Yes? What do you guys think?\r\n\r\nMaria (11:42):\r\n\r\nNot enough.\r\n\r\nBruce (11:43):\r\n\r\nNot enough, no. \r\n\r\nArlene (11:45):\r\n\r\nIf it makes you feel any better, I would answer that way too: \u201cNot enough.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Why\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce (11:48):\r\n\r\nWe'll go ahead and answer that way then.\r\n\r\nArlene: I will. \r\n\r\nDave (11:52):\r\n\r\nWe do it about four times a day. So you guys are just losers. \r\n\r\nAnn: No, we don\u2019t!\r\n\r\nDave: No, we do not.\r\n\r\nAnn (11:56):\r\n\r\nHere's my question: \u201cWhy do you think comples don't pray together?\u201d \r\n\r\nDave: Comples?\r\n\r\nAnn: Why do you think couples\u2014\r\n\r\nArlene: I like how he pointed that out. \r\n\r\nDave (12:08):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s laughter. \r\n\r\nBruce: He mocks her.\r\n\r\nDave: I created laughter.\r\n\r\nAnn: Why do you think\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: We got to keep that in; don't edit that out.\r\n\r\nBruce: It\u2019s real.\r\n\r\nAnn (12:11):\r\n\r\nWhy do you think couples don't pray together?\r\n\r\nMaria (12:14):\r\n\r\nBusyness.\r\n\r\nAnn: Tired.\r\n\r\nBruce (12:16):\r\n\r\nWe're not too busy to watch a new series. \r\n\r\nAnn (12:20):\r\n\r\nSee! \r\n\r\n[Unintelligible cross talking] \r\n\r\nMaria: It doesn't take effort; it takes effort to pray. \r\n\r\nAnn: But why does prayer feel like effort? It's just talking. \r\n\r\nMaria: I don\u2019t know; it just does.\r\n\r\nBruce (12:29):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s intimate.\r\n\r\nAnn (12:30):\r\n\r\nI think that's it: it's intimate.\r\n\r\nDave (12:33):\r\n\r\nWe\u2019re having a day here. What do you mean: intimate?\r\n\r\nBruce (12:35):\r\n\r\nIt's like I got to expose myself.\r\n\r\nMaria (12:39):\r\n\r\nIt feels like a chore.\r\n\r\nBruce (12:39):\r\n\r\nShe exposes herself. Yeah, praying to God\u2014that\u2019s\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria (12:43):\r\n\r\nI don't mind the intimacy. To me,\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce (12:44):\r\n\r\n\u2014opening your soul.\r\n\r\nMaria (12:45):\r\n\r\n\u2014that's something that has to be done. So if it has to be done, then it feels like a chore to me. I don\u2019t know. \r\n\r\nAnn: Maybe, that's how you feel. Do you feel like that?\r\n\r\nDave (12:54):\r\n\r\nI can't say that on air.\r\n\r\nMaria (12:55):\r\n\r\nThere's so much in my life that has to be done\u2014and it's like another thing that has to be done\u2014and I'm like, \u201cI don't want to do it. I want to do what I want to do for once today.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (13:04):\r\n\r\nOh, there's something. \r\n\r\nArlene: So then, it's maybe like: \u201cHow do you make it an on-the-way kind of thing?\u201d Not like a thing you have to do: but \u201cOn the way from point A to point B, I'm talking to God.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (13:13):\r\n\r\nObviously, there's a heart issue of: \u201cI need to reorient so that it is something that I want, something that I look forward to.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (13:20):\r\n\r\nSo do you pray during the day\u2014just throughout the day\u2014like: \u201cLord, this is terrible.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria: I do.\r\n\r\nAnn: So you'll do it alone.\r\n\r\nMaria: \u2014on my own, yes. \r\n\r\nDave (13:28):\r\n\r\nLet me ask the ladies this\u2014I've got three of them here\u2014this is me and Bruce asking; Bruce doesn't know what I'm going to ask. \u201cDo you women feel like, when your husband prays or even leads\u2014like, \u2018Hey, let's pray,\u2019\u2014is it romantic? Is there something about it that's like romantically-stimulating toward your man?\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene (13:46):\r\n\r\nI will say, \u201cYes\u201d; because it's like, \u201cOh, this is the man I fell in love with.\u201d One thing I really liked about James when we were dating, he was very spiritually passionate: he'd pray and he'd worship. I just felt like, \u201cWell, you really love God\u201d; so I really liked that. \r\n\r\nI think\u2014to go back to your earlier question of: \u201cSometimes, why don't we pray?\u201d\u2014sometimes it's like, as women, we're waiting maybe for the man to lead to do the prayer. You don't want to feel like, \u201cI'm the wife; and I'm so spiritual, and I'm so godly,\u201d\u2014because women tend to be more: we read; we journal; we do these spiritual activities\u2014but praying, whether you're\u2014it doesn't matter how you pray; you could be praying in the car\u2014it's just a spiritual as praying somewhere else. \r\n\r\nWe're waiting for the man to lead; and then, the man is thinking, \u201cOh, I'm not going to do it good enough, the way the wife wants me to do it. I don't have time to read the study and do all this stuff, so I'm just not going to do it.\u201d I think there\u2019s a little bit of that too.\r\n\r\nAnn (14:44):\r\n\r\nMaria, what was going on in your head? Because your face revealed something different.\r\n\r\nMaria (14:49):\r\n\r\nNo, I have to have an honest moment here of: \u201cThat's not\u2014there are other spiritual things that he does that are attractive and romantic, like you were talking about, to me\u2014but a lot of times, when he decides he wants to do those things, it's when we're in bed at night, and I'm like so tired. It's not what I want to do right then. \r\n\r\nAnn: Are you okay with him\u2014\r\n\r\nArlene: Timing is important.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014just praying over you? \r\n\r\nMarai: Yeah, I would be; but usually, he wants to pray together.\r\n\r\nBruce (15:18):\r\n\r\nA lot of times, I just pray\u2014I'll say, \u201cLet's pray,\u201d\u2014but it\u2019s really just me praying.\r\n\r\nMaria (15:22):\r\n\r\nThat's true; that\u2019s true.\r\n\r\nBruce (15:23):\r\n\r\nI think what happened: we used to pray more before we had kids. We pray, as a family, way more than we pray as a couple. \r\n\r\nArlene (15:29):\r\n\r\nOh, that's good.\r\n\r\nBruce (15:30):\r\n\r\nI think in my head\u2014I'm like, \u201cWe prayed at the dinner table. She was there, so we prayed together,\u201d\u2014but it's not the same.\r\n\r\nAnn (15:37):\r\n\r\nInteresting.\r\n\r\nDave (15:39):\r\n\r\nYou know the stats on couples that pray? It's staggering. Couples that pray together daily\u2014well, no; it didn't say \u201cdaily.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: (15:47):\r\n\r\n\u2014\"on a regular basis.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (15:47):\r\n\r\n\u2014\"regular: one, two or three times, probably, a week,\u201d\u2014divorce rate is 1 in 1,152. \r\n\r\nArlene: Wow; we need to start praying.\r\n\r\nBruce (15:53):\r\n\r\nThat's crazy.\r\n\r\nDave (15:54):\r\n\r\nFifty percent outside of the church.\r\n\r\nAnn: That's motivating. \r\n\r\nDave: Twenty-three percent divorce rate in the church, one in 1,152. It's just like: \u201cThere must be something there.\u201d Well, there's a spiritual thing going on if you're going to be that intimate to say: \u201cWe're going to do this three or four times; maybe, seven times [per week]\u201d\u2014whatever\u2014\"but regularly, this is part of our thing.\u201d It\u2019s a big deal.\r\n\r\nAnn (16:13):\r\n\r\nAnd our prayers are quick; they\u2019re short at night.\r\n\r\nBruce (16:15):\r\n\r\nI was going to say, \u201cWhat does it look like for Dave and Ann Wilson?\u201d Give us a little insight.\r\n\r\nAnn (16:19):\r\n\r\nDon't hold us to any pedestal. It used to look like this: we'd be getting ready for getting in bed. I can tell Dave's getting tired; and so I'd be thinking, \u201cOh, he's going to pray. He's the pastor, after all, of the church of thousands of people.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (16:34):\r\n\r\nI prayed for all the people that day.\r\n\r\nAnn (16:36):\r\n\r\nAnd then, he falls asleep. I'm like, \u201cOh, well, he could pray for them; but he can't pray for us or me.\u201d And then, I have this resentment going on within me. I realized: \u201cSo then, if nobody prays, who wins?\u2014Satan.\u201d Basically, that's how I see it; I'm more black and white. \r\n\r\nWe talked about that. Dave, you still fall asleep sometimes; but \u201cWho cares who prays or who falls asleep?\u201d \r\n\r\nDave: \u201cLet's just pray.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Yeah; \u201cLet's just pray.\u201d And it's quick; it'd be like, \u201cLord, we love you. Thanks for today. Lord, we're really\/this is keeping me up: here\u2019s what's going on\u2026\u201d It's not even three minutes.\r\n\r\nDave (17:13):\r\n\r\nNo, it's very short. And sometimes, we've had seasons\u2014where we got on our knees\u2014and just say, \u201cHey, let's do this for a month.\u201d That's pretty cool. And sometimes, those were 30 seconds; sometimes, they were two minutes. \r\n\r\nAnn (17:26):\r\n\r\nAnd when I come in, and he's already on his knees, to me, that is so romantic.\r\n\r\nDave (17:31):\r\n\r\nShe has never not jumped on her knees beside me; like, \u201cBoom, Baby!\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene (17:35):\r\n\r\n\u201cAre we doing this?\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cAre we praying together?\u201d I feel like we're going to battle! \u201cWe're going to battle; let\u2019s get in there together.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (17:41):\r\n\r\nI remember one time\u2014I think I've maybe shared it\u2014we have a studio at home. It was during COVID, and I had the door shut. It's upstairs; it used to be a bedroom. I grabbed my acoustic; and I'm like [singing], \u201cBless the Lord, o my soul\u201d Bam! The door opens: \u201cAre we worshipping?! Yeah; let\u2019s go.\u201d I'm like, \u201cI sort of wanted a moment by myself.\u201d She's like all over it: \u201cI guess we are!\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (18:07):\r\n\r\nYou\u2019ve never done it again; it makes me so sad! \r\n\r\nDave: I do; I do it real quiet now. \r\n\r\nAnn: That's terrible! \r\n\r\nDave: But there's something I think in that, at least for us, I think\u2014you tell me if women feel this way\u2014but there's something, when you're spiritually moving together, that there's something happening good in your marriage, right? That\u2019s got to be true.\r\n\r\nArlene (18:29):\r\n\r\nIt's like jelling you together.\r\n\r\nDave (18:30):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nAnn: You feel intimate.\r\n\r\nArlene (18:31):\r\n\r\nYou feel like it's working: \u201cWe're closer.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (18:33):\r\n\r\nIt could be the Word\/it could be reading the Bible; it could be praying; you could be singing\u2014anything that you're going vertical\u2014I think connects a couple.\r\n\r\nAnn (18:41):\r\n\r\nBut I will say, Dave, when we're not doing well, I do not want to pray. I don't want to pray with you; I don't even want to pray, because God\u2014the truth of Who He is\u2014confronts your soul. It makes you already know we need to resolve something. \r\n\r\nHow does it look for you guys, Arlene, you and James?\r\n\r\nArlene (18:58):\r\n\r\nIt can be that separate prayer first that you're just praying: \u201cGod, help me to forgive. God, help me to be nice. God, help me to see it how he's seeing it.\u201d And then, coming back together. I do have those quick bathroom prayers, that you go quick in the bathroom: \u201cLord, help me not be mad. Show me: \u2018Why am I mad?\u2019 and \u2018Really, why are you unhappy?\u2019\u201d\u2014\"O my soul\u201d kind of thing. Ask yourself: \u201cWhat is it about that that set me off? What is it that he needs to know that he's not understanding?\u201d A lot of times, it's misunderstanding. It's like: \u201cWhat do I need to communicate more clearly?\u201d It is\u2014you see it in the Gospels, right?\u2014\"Go make it right with the person; and then, come back to Me and offer your offering.\u201d\r\n\r\n(19:38) \r\n\r\nSo I do see it: keeping the marriage in sync is part of your worship; like, \u201cLord, I want to make it right with this person so I can now make it right with You.\u201d Of course, as much as it depends on you, you do it. The other person might not be working with you, but you're only doing your part. \r\n\r\nIt's true, though\u2014a soft heart towards your spouse helps you then have a soft heart towards God\u2014but when you're hardhearted towards your spouse, you\u2019re hardhearted towards God, because you don't want to talk to Him about what's happening. There is a correlation there.\r\n\r\nAnn (20:10):\r\n\r\nDave and I were in this big fight. I was going on a trip; and he was supposed to fix\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWhich one?\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce: I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWhat did Dave do?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (20:17):\r\n\r\nHe was supposed to fix the headlight on this car. I was going to drive five hours. \r\n\r\nDave: Oh, no; do not share that.\r\n\r\nAnn: I had given him a month or two; I'm like, \u201cHey, we've got to get that headlight\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce (20:27):\r\n\r\nThat little amount of time, huh?\r\n\r\nAnn (20:29):\r\n\r\n\u2014a month or two.\r\n\r\nDave (20:31):\r\n\r\nAnd every time: \u201cYeah, I'll get to it; I'll get to it.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (20:33):\r\n\r\nI know that I can't go have it fixed\u2014it would cost too much money\u2014and he would want to fix it himself. The day of this event, where I'm leaving\u2014the kids are little\u2014I come home. I have to take the car he's in. He gets out; I throw my bags in the car. I get in the driver's seat; kiss him. I'm like, \u201cHey, you fixed the headlight; right?\u201d He goes, \u201cOh, I totally forgot.\u201d I just looked at him like, \u201cYou are unbelievable.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (21:00):\r\n\r\nShe was ticked.\r\n\r\nAnn (21:01):\r\n\r\nI was so mad. I leave, and I can see him in my mirror. I can see him saying\u2014and the boys are little, like car-seat little\u2014 \r\n\r\nDave (21:10):\r\n\r\nI'm, literally, throwing them in the car.\r\n\r\nAnn (21:11):\r\n\r\nHe's throwing them in this minivan.\r\n\r\nDave (21:12):\r\n\r\n\u201cFollow me to K-Mart.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (21:14):\r\n\r\nHe's not even putting them in a car seat; I'm like, \u201cLook at\u2014see\u2014that's who I married. Look at him.\u201d I'm driving, and I am so mad. And when I vent\u2014I can vent to God about it\u2014\"Can you believe that, Lord? Look at him. Look, he doesn't even care. I've given him two months; I do everything.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnd then, I hear this little voice: \u201cWhat are you going to be speaking on?\u201d\u2014this is in my head\u2014\"What are you going to be speaking on this weekend to these women?\u2014about how your husband doesn't meet all your needs, and Jesus can meet your needs.\u201d You know what I do? I turn on the radio really loud; because I'm like, \u201cI don't want to hear what God says right now.\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene: \u201cI'm not ready; I\u2019m not ready to hear that.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cLord, I was venting to You; I was venting to You, but I don't want to hear what You have to say.\u201d\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nBruce (21:54):\r\n\r\nBut then, it was on K-LOVE;  and you're like, \u201cAhh!\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (21:57):\r\n\r\nBut anyway, I think, when my heart gets hard, the last thing I want to do is pray;\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce (22:02):\r\n\r\nOh, yeah.\r\n\r\nAnn (22:03):\r\n\r\n\u2014because God confronts our sin and brokenness.\r\n\r\nBruce (22:06):\r\n\r\nIt's like instant: \u201cGod, oh, okay; I see where I'm wrong.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cOh, it's me again!\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce: I'm going into prayer, certain it's 100 percent her fault. And then, \u201cLord, oh\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (22:22):\r\n\r\nYes!\r\n\r\nDave (22:23):\r\n\r\nOr if you have a sin that you need to confess\u2014I know you guys never have any\u2014but\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce (22:28):\r\n\r\nI can imagine that that's hard.\r\n\r\nDave (22:30):\r\n\r\n\u2014there could be. That prevents you; it's like a blockage. You\u2019re right\u2014you said earlier, Bruce\u2014\u201cIt's intimate.\u201d It's like it's hard to fake it.\r\n\r\nAnn (22:39):\r\n\r\nOkay, let's go into the next one: \u201cDo you still notice each other? Physical attraction matters; do you still see and appreciate your spouse's appearance?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (22:50):\r\n\r\nWhen I read that yesterday, I thought, \u201cI believe you're stunning.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (22:54):\r\n\r\nOh, my! \r\n\r\nDave (22:56):\r\n\r\nSee, here we go; that's what she does.\r\n\r\nArlene (22:58):\r\n\r\nShe is! She is stunning.\r\n\r\nDave (22:58):\r\n\r\nI believed that from the day I dated her; I thought, \u201cShe's the hottest thing I ever saw.\u201d I feel the same way now. And I don't say it a lot. I say it now; she's like, \u201cPlease don't even say it.\u201d Look at that reaction. Even when I say it\u2014\"I think you're beautiful,\u201d\u2014she said, \u201cNo, I'm not. I got this; I got this; I got this. I need to...\u201d I'm like, \u201cI just think you're beautiful! I'm not just making it up.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: That\u2019s really sweet. \r\n\r\nDave: Even the other night, laying in this tent\u2014doing this camping marriage thing\u2014I look over, and I'm like, \u201cThis is amazing that she'll even do this. How many wives would say, \u2018I'm not doing this; I'm getting a house\u2019?\u201d And I'm not saying good or bad; I'm just like, \u201cMy wife is willing to do it, and you look great!\u201d I believe that. So I'm just thinking, \u201cDo we say that? Do we\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (23:41):\r\n\r\nGood for you who are watching on YouTube.\r\n\r\nDave (23:44):\r\n\r\nNo, when I read this,\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce: That\u2019s the screenshot there, a thumbnail.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:47):\r\n\r\nOh, yeah; don't use that please.\r\n\r\nDave (23:48):\r\n\r\nPut a picture of us in high school, whatever. \r\n\r\n\u201cDo you still notice each other?\u201d I see it, but I don't say it enough. \r\n\r\nAnn: What do you guys think about that?\r\n\r\nMaria (23:55):\r\n\r\nI was going to say, \u201cI notice him; but I feel like, a lot of times, he doesn't notice me.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (24:00):\r\n\r\nI don't say it nearly enough. I notice\u2014sometimes, I'll say it to the girls\u2014and she'll be like, \u201cWhere's my love?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (24:09):\r\n\r\nDoes that matter to you, Maria? \r\n\r\nMaria: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: It does.\r\n\r\nMaria: It does. \r\n\r\nAnn: And when he doesn't, what do you feel? What goes through your mind?\r\n\r\nMaria (24:16):\r\n\r\nYou have all the thoughts of like: \u201cWell, I must not be attractive anymore.\u201d I don't know.\r\n\r\nBruce (24:21):\r\n\r\nYeah, it's a thing right now in our marriage. I think if we want to get real talk of\u2014at least, for me, an insecurity is\u2014you know that I like your hair down. It's an insecurity\u2014but I was like, \u201cIf she loved me, she'd wear it down more often,\u201d\u2014so I'm always asking you, \u201cCan you wear your hair down?\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (24:38):\r\n\r\n\u201cPull your hair [down],\u201d \u201cYou pull your hair [down].\u201d It drives me insane.\r\n\r\nBruce (24:39):\r\n\r\n\u201cPull your hair [down].\u201d It drives her nuts. \r\n\r\nDave: \u2014because?\r\n\r\nMaria (24:42):\r\n\r\nI'm wiping butts; I am washing dishes; I'm cleaning pee off the floor\u2014I am doing all these things\u2014I don't have time to pull my hair down, and it's getting in my way. But then, it's like I feel like, \u201cOh; well, he doesn't think I'm pretty if I don't pull my hair down.\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene (25:00):\r\n\r\nOh, this is so good; because this is exactly how it is. Because for you\u2014for Maria, it's like\u2014\"I need to put my hair up to do the thing.\u201d And then, for Bruce it's like, \u201cOh, but I just love it so much when your hair is down.\u201d \r\n\r\nMaria (25:15):\r\n\r\nBut it\u2019s more than that; I think it's more than that; because he makes it a love issue\u2014he says, \u201cIf you love me, you would do this,\u201d\u2014he's said that before.\r\n\r\nBruce (25:23):\r\n\r\nWell, and it's not right. \r\n\r\nMaria: \u201cIt feels like such a small thing.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce: It's how I feel. It's wrong, but it's how I feel. \r\n\r\nMaria: \u201cIt feels like such a small thing that you could do that makes me feel loved.\u201d So then, it makes me feel like\u2014on top of everything else, where I feel like I\u2019m failing\u2014something else I'm failing, because I can't pull my hair down or remember to pull my hair down; I'm failing you again.\r\n\r\nAnn (25:39):\r\n\r\nAnd so I would probably feel like\u2014not to not be on your side, Bruce\u2014\u201cDoes that mean I'm ugly when my hair's up?!\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (25:47):\r\n\r\nExactly: \u201cSo I'm not pretty?\u201d That's what I was saying: \u201cThen, I feel like, \u2018Well, I'm not pretty. He doesn't think I'm pretty unless I pull my hair down.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (25:52):\r\n\r\n\u201cIf I want to be somewhat attractive to him, I need to have my hair down. And right now, I don't care about being attractive; I just need to get my kid to go to sleep!\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria: Yes, yes.\r\n\r\nDave (26:01):\r\n\r\nSo how do you help? How do you help that couple?\r\n\r\nBruce: I'm not here to defend myself on this.\r\n\r\nAnn (26:04):\r\n\r\nI know you're not; I know your heart.\r\n\r\nBruce (26:06):\r\n\r\nYou have every right to put it out. \r\n\r\nMaria: I\u2019m saying you brought it up.\r\n\r\nBruce: You have every right not to be bothered about it. So I'm not going to defend myself one bit; it's not right.\r\n\r\nArlene (26:13):\r\n\r\nWe need to give kudos to Bruce for being able to say this; that's kind of a big thing. And then, we're going to retrain you, Bruce, to have all these pictures of Maria, with her hair up\u2014and for you to be like, \u201cOh, I like it that way,\u201d\u2014it's almost like a learning: \u201cI'm going to learn, out of love, how to like your hair this way.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnd then, for you Maria, that out of love that you'll be like: \u201cOh, it's date night; hair's down.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (26:42):\r\n\r\nShe does always do that. \r\n\r\nMaria (26:44):\r\n\r\nI do things like that. \r\n\r\nBruce: It\u2019s not like you never do it.\r\n\r\nMaria: I do try to remember, before he gets home, at least, to pull the hair tie out. But I don\u2019t always remember. \r\n\r\nAnn (26:48):\r\n\r\nEven makeup, when you have little kids, it's the last thing you're thinking about. But then, when you're blonde, and you have no eyebrows and no eyelashes, you're like, \u201cYou can't even see your eyes.\u201d It was\u2014I think my sister wore makeup, and so I got into habit of that\u2014of not doing it all the time\u2014but sometimes. Is that important? It's that same kind of thing.\r\n\r\nMaria (27:13):\r\n\r\nAnd there've been times where he's like, \u201cWell, you always put on makeup when you're going out, when you're going to go see other people; but how come you don't put on makeup for me?\u201d And so not a lot more\u2014I need to do it more\u2014but I will try to just put some of it on before he gets home.\r\n\r\nDave (27:28):\r\n\r\nOn the other side, Bruce, you need to get her out; get her out of the house! \r\n\r\nBruce: You're right. \r\n\r\nDave: Call it \u201cHair out\/hair down night.\u201d  \r\n\r\nBruce: \u201cHair down night.\u201d Yeah, that's great! That's a great example.\r\n\r\nAnn (27:38):\r\n\r\nAnd I'll say, too, as we get older as women\u2014that's why I scoffed\u2014because I thought, \u201cI'm just going to get more mature and more okay with my physical appearance,\u201d\u2014I was like that for a while. And then, you start getting older; and it gets harder and harder. So when Dave says, \u201cOh, you look so good,\u201d I'm like, \u201cNo, I don't; I look like I'm 90 years old.\u201d I think there's something about receiving the compliment as well, which is really healthy. \r\n\r\nArlene, you're shaking your head.\r\n\r\nArlene (28:07):\r\n\r\nI was thinking of the whole noticing thing, because it's true. They just blend in\u2014your spouse just blends in to the whole scene of whatever's happening to your house\u2014and you really do not notice them. I will say that, while my kids were little, I'm noticing my kids, because they're growing; they need stuff. They're always changing; and then, your spouse is the same. You're like, \u201cI already got that; I already saw that.\u201d\r\n\r\n(28:30):\r\n\r\nYou do have to go back. I think that's what the once-a-year, one-day getaway does. What that does is it brings you back to notice each other again\u2014to notice\u2014because you go through phases, where it's like we're not really noticing. It is thinking it through: \u201cI have to do this on purpose.\u201d\r\n\r\nSometimes even, it used to be\u2014of course, when you were dating, you would look at each other for a long time, and it's not a big deal; you're falling in love\u2014but now, if you look at each other: \u201cWhat? Why are you looking at me? Do I have something in my hair?\u2014What?!\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Do I have something in my teeth?\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene: Yeah; \u201cSomething\u2019s wrong?\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene: And so sometimes, I will just even try\u2014James will be in the kitchen\u2014and I will just, on purpose, glance at him a little more, just as a little exercise for myself, to be like, \u201cLet me just actually really look at you.\u201d It's just a few seconds; but just this thought of like, \u201cOh, I want to notice you.\u201d\r\n\r\n(29:20):\r\n\r\nAnd I'm the kind of person, too, I don't notice things\u2014like my husband can trim all\/he had trimmed all of our palm trees; we\u2019re in San Diego\u2014he had spent four hours trimming all the palm trees; I don't notice that at all. I came home, and I think I did the dishes or something. He came in, and he asked me to do something. I was like, \u201cI'm not going to do that; I just did the dishes.\u201d He was like, \u201cI did the palm trees for four hours this morning.\u201d And I was like, \u201cOh, I didn't even notice that you did that. You win; I should do the chore, because you've done that for four hours.\u201d \r\n\r\nWe don't notice what the other person does. I think that idea: \u201cOkay, I'm going to notice what you do\u201d; that goes a long way.\r\n\r\nMaria (30:06):\r\n\r\nI was going to say, \u201cI think that is more of what you would want: is for me to notice what you're doing. You don't really care if I notice how you look, the physical part; that doesn't really mean much to you.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (30:16):\r\n\r\nWe're going to have Gary Chapman in here tomorrow, but who needs him? I'll explain it all. It's a love language thing, where I think you really like words of affirmation; you receive love that way. And I don't so much, and so I don't think to love you that way. \r\n\r\nDave, I love the example that you set just by being so open on this program because you've talked about that one time that Ann came down the stairs and you thought she just looked drop-dead gorgeous. You just thought it and didn't say it; that happens to me. Just the other night, we were on a date on Saturday night, and thought you looked so good. I didn't say a thing. \r\n\r\nMaria: Nope. \r\n\r\nBruce: Just thought it.\r\n\r\nArlene (30:51):\r\n\r\nSo then, see how easy this is! All it is: it\u2019s like, \u201cWow, you look really beautiful tonight, Babe.\u201d It's just one thing; and it's like, \u201cWhoa!\u201d \r\n\r\nMaria: It\u2019s a new habit.\r\n\r\nBruce (30:58):\r\n\r\nThat is a crazy idea.\r\n\r\nMaria (31:01):\r\n\r\nAnd all I need to do is throw my trash away.\r\n\r\nBruce: It's that simple.\r\n\r\nDave (31:05):\r\n\r\nNow, I do think it's really important for men, too,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (31:10):\r\n\r\nI was going to ask: \u201cIs it important for men?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (31:11):\r\n\r\n\u2014to be noticed. \r\n\r\nBruce: Not for me. \r\n\r\nMaria: He doesn\u2019t\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (31:12):\r\n\r\nNoticed in what way? I think that's a good question.\r\n\r\nMaria (31:15):\r\n\r\nThat's the thing: if I notice\u2014because he'll be like cleaning the garage\u2014and I don't care; I don't care about the garage. He cares about the garage.\r\n\r\nAnn (31:22):\r\n\r\nI would; I\u2019d be like, \u201cLook at that garage!\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (31:25):\r\n\r\nI don't care about the garage, \u2014but if I notice\/if I say, \u201cThank you for cleaning the garage,\u201d or \u201cThank you for\u2026\u201d\u2014whatever it is that he did, he appreciates it when I notice the things that he does, not necessarily how he looks.\r\n\r\nBruce (31:39):\r\n\r\nWell, I'm with Ann\u2014she'll [Maria will] say, \u201cHow did I get such a good-looking husband?\u201d\u2014I'm just like, \u201cWhatever. I don\u2019t why you're\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria: He doesn't like it.\r\n\r\nBruce: \u2014\"you're just being funny. You, obviously, don't mean that.\u201d That's part of that.\r\n\r\nAnn (31:51):\r\n\r\nSo the question would be: \u201cYou love it when I notice what?\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Hey, before we continue our conversation, I just want to remind you that our vision at FamilyLife is: \u201cEvery home, a godly home.\u201d We need your help to get there. When you become a FamilyLife Partner, your monthly support makes that vision actually possible.\r\n\r\nDave (32:13):\r\n\r\nAnd listen to this: if you join the FamilyLife Partner program, you'll get access to exclusive updates and events, and the chance to join our \u201cPartners Only\u201d online community. But more than that, you'll be teaming up with us to change the future of families. The question is: \u201cWill you stand with us?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (32:31):\r\n\r\nYou can learn more and become a Partner at FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014just click the \u201cDonate\u201d button at the top\u2014again, that\u2019s FamilyLifeToday.com. \r\n\r\nOkay, let's get back to the conversation.\r\n\r\nDave (32:45):\r\n\r\nI don't care if you think I look good. I'm trying to look good\u2014but look at me\u2014I can't do much! There's not a lot of\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (32:54):\r\n\r\nSee, he\u2019s as bad as I am.\r\n\r\nDave (32:54):\r\n\r\nBut no, even a couple of weeks ago, I was preaching. We stream, so I didn't know she was watching the first service\u2014going to do four that day\u2014and right at the end of my sermon, she texts. I was talking about how all the disciples were martyred\u2014they weren't all\u2014and I didn't have time to say it. I had a whole chart, so I started riffing. I get a text before I\u2019m done with the sermon: \u201cJohn wasn't killed; he was boiled in oil.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (33:19):\r\n\r\nOh, but survived.\r\n\r\nAnn: He survived on the island.\r\n\r\nDave (33:21):\r\n\r\nAnd I didn't even remember. I just put them all in one thing, and I just ran out of time. But all that to say\u2014and I even told the congregation\u2014\"Hey, you got to have a marriage like mine. My wife texted me just to clear it up: \u2018John wasn't killed.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (33:35):\r\n\r\nI thought you could correct it before you ended.\r\n\r\nDave (33:37):\r\n\r\nBut before I went into the next service, I also get a text that says: \u201cThis was really, really good.\u201d Of all the people in the congregation who come up to me, their comments mean nothing. Hers means everything, good and bad. I know she's like, \u201cYou're good, and you just did a great job,\u201d\u2014that's a 10 out of 10 to a guy.\r\n\r\nAnn (33:56):\r\n\r\nBut it says a lot about\u2014that I can do that\u2014because I would come to a later service and see it live. But there's something about Dave, like, \u201cHey, I really love what you see in my messages and what you think I should improve.\u201d That says a lot about you, even.\r\n\r\nDave (34:12):\r\n\r\nYeah, but it's the noticing. I say this at men's retreats; I say it so women can understand this about their man: \u201cYour man is still a little boy, who's saying, Hey, Mom, do you see?\u2014do you see? \u2014do you see?\u2019\u201d We aren't, but we sort of are: we're still looking for you to say [clapping]: \u201cYou're a good man,\u201d \u201cYou're a good husband.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (34:30):\r\n\r\n\u201cAnd I want specifics.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: You do? \r\n\r\nBruce: If I was preaching that sermon, I'd want her to say: \u201cThat point about this,\u201d or \u201c\u2026that,\u201d \u201cMan, that was really good.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: And she did.\r\n\r\nBruce: I'll play like a radio spot for her\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria (34:41):\r\n\r\nBecause that demonstrates that I was really listening.\r\n\r\nBruce (34:42):\r\n\r\nYeah; I want you to, just on your own, say, \u201cWhoa, that little thing right there; that was so cool.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (34:48):\r\n\r\nI always say to Dave: \u201cOh, you're fishing now. You want me to go on about it?\u201d I used to feel like, \u201cWait, really? You need me to\u2026\u201d Now, I realize, \u201cYeah, he does want me to do that.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (34:58):\r\n\r\n\u201cThat was good, but was it the best you ever heard in your life?\u201d or \u201cThat\u2019s what it was\u2026\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (35:01):\r\n\r\nIt's kind of getting down in the weeds. When I played the trailer for \u201cThe Road to Kaeluma\u201d, and you said, \u201cSo is that supposed to be a trailer or a sample?\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (35:10):\r\n\r\nHe got so mad at me, so mad at me. I was like, \u201cWhat did I do? I don't know what I did.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (35:15):\r\n\r\nBut you're right; it's a little-boy insecurity. That's all it is.\r\n\r\nDave: It is. \r\n\r\nMaria (35:18):\r\n\r\nI legitimately didn't know what this piece of audio was supposed to be like. \r\n\r\nBruce: \u201cIt's a trailer! And it\u2019s a really good one!\u201d \r\n\r\nMaria (35:25):\r\n\r\nI asked a question, because I didn't automatically know.\r\n\r\nArlene: \u201cEverybody at work loved it! It\u2019s a trailer.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Arlene, what does James want you to notice?\r\n\r\nArlene (35:32):\r\n\r\nWhat does James want me to notice? I think similar to what Dave is saying\u2014with the accomplishments\u2014the things that are being done. It is funny though: my sweet James is trying to hold onto his hair, and so he does not\u2014 \r\n\r\nDave (35:45):\r\n\r\n\u2014give up. It's a losing battle unless you want to spend a lot of money!\r\n\r\nArlene (35:50):\r\n\r\nIt's like he's working on his appearance in that sense\u2014but he doesn't care\u2014I could notice things, but he doesn't care as much. It's more like he loves to learn. \r\n\r\nMaria (36:01):\r\n\r\n\u201cYou did the palm trees.\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene (36:01):\r\n\r\nHe did the palm trees\u2014he would like that; he would\u2014because he\u2019s the acts-of-service person. If I notice that [he] actually did the act of service\u2014which I have completely ignored\u2014so acknowledgement of that. \r\n\r\nHe really loves respect. So he loves\u2014\u201cThis is the direction we're going with the family,\u201d or whatever it is\u2014and I say, Wonderful,\u201d\u2014even if we need to talk about it; but at the end, I back [him] up; that's huge. That's his thing: \u201cI respect you; I'll back you up.\u201d That's what he wants me to notice. \r\n\r\nDave (36:30):\r\n\r\nBelieve it or not, there's ten of these. We've covered two. I don't know if we're going to even get close to ten; but the next one is: \u201cDo you hold hands?\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (36:39):\r\n\r\nYes, we do. \r\n\r\nBruce: Of course, we do.\r\n\r\nDave (36:41):\r\n\r\nYeah, now you are. \r\n\r\nBruce: All the time. \r\n\r\nDave: You just did. \r\n\r\nAnn: Do you really?\r\n\r\nBruce: Sometimes. It\u2019s usually\u2014unfortunately, look, I'll just make myself look bad continually\u2014you usually are the one who reaches over; I will sometimes.\r\n\r\nMaria (36:54):\r\n\r\nI'm a physical-touch person.\r\n\r\nBruce (36:56):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nAnn (36:57):\r\n\r\nBut I'm glad that you still reach out. \r\n\r\nMaria: I often bring up\u2014when we were dating, we didn't kiss until our wedding day\u2014and so holding hands was a big deal. When we'd be in the car, he would reach over and grab my hand.\r\n\r\nBruce (37:09):\r\n\r\nYour hands are like kissing. \r\n\r\nMaria: \u201cHe's touching me!\u201d \r\n\r\nBruce: Yeah; one time, our elbows touched; it was crazy.\r\n\r\nAnn (37:15):\r\n\r\nThat's really sweet though. Is it important to you, Maria? \r\n\r\nMaria: Yes.\r\n\r\nBruce (37:23):\r\n\r\nWell, I shared this on the Married with Benefits one about physical; one of the episodes is \u201cPhysical Touch.\u201d I shared it\u2014anyway, it doesn't matter\u2014we had friends over. I had heard that day, or read that day, the chapter on physical touch\u2014and how important it is\u2014and just even putting your hand on her back. We had friends over, playing games. I remember just thinking, \u201cI'll just rub her back.\u201d And then, at the end of the night, we're cleaning up; friends are gone. \r\n\r\nDave: You would love that.\r\n\r\nBruce: She said, \u201cYou were so sweet tonight.\u201d I was my normal usual\u2014probably, not the nicest person\u2014I was a jerk, I'm sure. But somehow, because I put my hand on her back,\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria (37:56):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s true. \r\n\r\nBruce (37:57):\r\n\r\n\u2014she\u2019s like: You were so sweet tonight.\u201d I'm like, \u201cOkay!\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene (37:59):\r\n\r\nIt says you learned; right?\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes!\r\n\r\nBruce: I haven't done it since. \r\n\r\nAnn: Now, there is something really powerful about that. I feel like that too.\r\n\r\nDave (38:08):\r\n\r\nI think couples, over years, stop.\r\n\r\nAnn: Arlene, what are you going to say?\r\n\r\nArlene (38:10):\r\n\r\nYeah, I was going to say, \u201cWe\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (38:12):\r\n\r\n\u2014\"don't do it.\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene (38:13):\r\n\r\nYeah; \u201cWe don't do it.\u201d \r\n\r\nWe do it\u2014he'll grab my hand at church when the prayer is happening\u2014he takes my hand, which I really like. I am not a physical-touch person, so it doesn't bother me as much. You know what I'm saying?\u2014it doesn't speak as much. But if we're going on a date, then we will maybe hold hands to the door and out the door; and that kind of thing. But on a regular basis, not as much. \r\n\r\nIt is a really simple way\u2014it does take a reminder\u2014here, even here in studio, we're talking about it. So that's when Bruce and Maria took hands\u2014like, \u201cWe're talking about it,\u201d\u2014so you take hands. So even just listening to this conversation, usually we need a cue. When you're falling in love, you need no cue; you're just so attracted to each other. But later, you need cues, like: \u201cOh, let me take your hand now,\u201d \u201cLet me hold hands.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (38:59):\r\n\r\nWhen Dave does that, I notice every single time. He doesn't: I feel like sometimes you're like, \u201cDon't touch my feet,\u201d or \u201cDon't\u2026\u201d I could be like, \u201cOh\u2026\u201d; and he could care less. But especially, coming from sexual abuse and never in my life being touched except for sexual kind of abuse\u2014because my family wasn't affectionate\u2014so I really noticed just healthy rubbing my back, holding my hand; it does mean so much! \r\n\r\nI would say this for our listeners: \u201cPut it in your phone. If it doesn't come natural, put it as a reminder in your phone: \r\n\r\nArlene: \u201c\u2018Hold hands.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201c\u2018Hold hands.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (39:37):\r\n\r\nIt's interesting; we are so polar opposite in that he does not want to be touched. \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes! That\u2019s Dave.\r\n\r\nMaria: He does not want to be touched.\r\n\r\nBruce (39:43):\r\n\r\nEspecially, if it's repetitive, just like\u2014 \r\n\r\nMaria (39:45):\r\n\r\n\u2014like rubbing the back.\r\n\r\nBruce: \u201cAre you almost done?\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria: \u201cPlease stop.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (39:46):\r\n\r\nSo for you, it wouldn't come natural to do that\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce (39:53):\r\n\r\nNo.\r\n\r\nAnn (39:54):\r\n\r\n\u2014for Maria.\r\n\r\nBruce (39:55):\r\n\r\nHow would you feel, though, if I had a reminder? Does that bother you at all?\r\n\r\nMaria (39:58):\r\n\r\nNo!\r\n\r\nAnn: It wouldn't bother me! \u201cGood; put that reminder; I\u2019ll put it in there for you.\u201d \r\n\r\nDave: Hey, let me ask you this one\u2014it's not in here\u2014but it's in the same category: \u201cDo you ever kiss?\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (40:07):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nDave (40:08):\r\n\r\nLike just kiss without sex or anything else? \r\n\r\nMaria (40:11):\r\n\r\nThe funny thing is what's helped us with that\u2014I think what's made it a thing for us is Bluey\u2014there's an episode of Bluey called \u201cSmooch Kiss.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (40:22):\r\n\r\nThe kids freak out, yes.\r\n\r\nMaria (40:23):\r\n\r\n\u2014when their parents have a smooch kiss. We'll do that now; and be like, \u201cSmoochy kiss.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (40:27):\r\n\r\nAnd then, all our girls go: \u201cAhh!\u201d \u201cYou like it; you would hate it if we didn't.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (40:32):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s so cute. \r\n\r\nMaria: They love the smoochy kiss.\r\n\r\nAnn: You know what?\u2014they'll never forget that. Because for kids, that's total security: \u201cMy mom and dad love each other.\u201d \r\n\r\nWhat about you, Arlene?\r\n\r\nArlene (40:39):\r\n\r\nYears ago, I interviewed Clifford and Joyce Penner\u2014they wrote The Gift of Sex\u2014these sex therapists. My husband was so excited, like, \u201cOh my goodness, you're talking to the sex therapists. I'm so happy.\u201d He couldn't believe it. \r\n\r\nThey suggested the five- to thirty-second kiss every day. They said it's to keep the pilot light lit between you; and that it's clear that it is not the ghost signal\u2014that was the big joke\u2014the woman doesn't want to give the five to thirty-second kiss because\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria: Not every woman does.\r\n\r\nArlene: \u2014not every woman\u2014because then, the man thinks, \u201cOh, this is the ghost signal.\u201d And the woman's just like, \u201cI just want to show love.\u201d So you kind of have a little chat it about it.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cIt's the pilot light\u201d; you're saying.\r\n\r\nArlene: \u201cThe pilot light: to keep that lit.\u201d Whenever we hear things like this, then we're like, \u201cOh, good; let's go back to the daily kiss.\u201d But then, once somebody gets sick, and you're like, \u201cOh, don't kiss me; don't kiss me,\u201d\u2014and then, you get out of the habit. \r\n\r\nOne day, when we have the little kids, James made a chart. He put a chart on the refrigerator of boxes, and we were supposed to check off with the kissing. We were supposed to check off every box if we kissed.\r\n\r\nDave (41:43):\r\n\r\nThat sounds so unromantic.\r\n\r\nArlene (41:44):\r\n\r\nIt was so funny. \r\n\r\nAnn: I love it! I would love that. \r\n\r\nArlene: And it was like with our kids and stuff. \r\n\r\nBruce: You should get stamps. \r\n\r\nArlene: We should.\r\n\r\nBruce: Our kids stamps; you should get stamps.\r\n\r\nMaria: We need to have our grownup stamp chart; smoochy kiss stamps. \r\n\r\nAnn: You should! \r\n\r\nArlene: And one of our kids asked what it was. I wasn't smart enough; I hadn't thought of an answer. I was like, \u201cOh, that's Daddy and my kissing chart.\u201d It was just like, \u201cOkay, that's our kissing chart.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (42:06):\r\n\r\nAnd since then, you didn't know you were dubbing it forever what it was called. \r\n\r\nDave (42:10):\r\n\r\nHere\u2019s the next one: \u201cWhen did you last say, \u2018I'm sorry\u2019?\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (42:15):\r\n\r\nAll the time. \r\n\r\nMaria: All the time.\r\n\r\nDave: Really? \r\n\r\nBruce: Yeah, I don't think we have trouble.\r\n\r\nMaria: No.\r\n\r\nAnn (42:19):\r\n\r\nArlene, is that important; do you think?\r\n\r\nArlene (42:23):\r\n\r\nYes, to be able to own it instead of being like, \u201cWell, it's your fault. I wouldn't have done that if you hadn\u2019t done that.\u201d Really, being quick to be like, \u201cOh, I'm sorry.\u201d Sometimes, we, as women, we\u2019re\u2014\u201cOh, I'm sorry,\u201d \u201cI'm sorry,\u201d \u201cI'm sorry,\u201d\u2014we say it too many times. Sometimes, we don't have to say it so much; but being willing to say, \u201cOh, I did that; I\u2019m sorry.\u201d\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nDave (42:43):\r\n\r\nIs it different than: \u201cI'm wrong,\u201d or \u201cI was wrong\u201d?\r\n\r\nArlene (42:47):\r\n\r\nIt's the same vein; you're just like, \u201cI was wrong.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (42:49):\r\n\r\nIt can be\u2014sometimes, we'll be like\u2014\"I'm sorry you felt that way,\u201d\u2014like, \u201cI didn't do anything wrong,\u201d\u2014\u201cBut I'm sorry you felt that way. It's a you-problem.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (42:56):\r\n\r\nThat's not an apology.\r\n\r\nBruce (42:58):\r\n\r\nI don't remember doing that that often. \r\n\r\nMaria; No, I\u2019m saying I'll do it. \r\n\r\nBruce: I remember hearing Tim Keller's wife\u2014I think her name's Kathy\u2014she was talking about how sometimes Tim would apologize too quickly. She's like, \u201cNo, that's not fair; you can't just immediately apologize.\u201d And that's interesting. Have you ever felt that?\u2014where it's almost like: \u201cYou're getting off the hook too easily: \u2018Oh, we don't have to deal with it anymore; I apologize.\u2019\r\n\r\nAnn (43:23):\r\n\r\nI would feel like that if it hadn't been resolved: \u201cIt's not time for apologies; you're just trying to get out of it,\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce (43:28):\r\n\r\nExactly.\r\n\r\nAnn (43:29):\r\n\r\n\u2014trying to get out of the resolution of figuring it out.\r\n\r\nBruce (43:32):\r\n\r\nI think I'm probably guilty of that. \r\n\r\nAnn (43:33):\r\n\r\nI think people\u2014what is that called in conflict styles? \r\n\r\nDave (43:39):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s the \u201cWin; yield; lose.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (43:40):\r\n\r\nIt's a yielder: \u201cI'm sorry; you're right.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (43:44):\r\n\r\n\u201cWell, no, no, no; we need to hash this out; and then we'll apologize. But you can't just jump there, because I haven't gotten to really share why that was making me feel this way.\u201d\r\n\r\nHave you ever felt that from me, where I jumped to\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria: Yes, 100 percent. \r\n\r\nAnn: Really? \r\n\r\nMaria (43:59):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nBruce: Are you sure?!\r\n\r\nDave: \u201cOne hundred percent.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria: Because I am a feeler, it's important to me, when he's leaving to work or when we're going to bed, I want to leave on an up-note. I don't want to go to bed upset; because then, I can't sleep. And obviously, sleep is not coming easily to me right now anyways with little ones. So I'll be like: \u201cYou forgive me? Come on; you forgive me. I want peace.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (44:22):\r\n\r\nI'm leaving for work; she's like, \u201cSeriously, you're just going to leave for work like this?\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (44:28):\r\n\r\nAnd that just makes it even worse. He's just like, \u201cWhatever; I don't want to talk about it right now\u201d; because it takes him time to process it and flip the switch.\r\n\r\nBruce (44:35):\r\n\r\nWell, you're the one who doesn't want to go to sleep until we've resolved it. When we did that\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria (44:39):\r\n\r\nYou're like, \u201cYou're not really sorry. You just want have peace so you can go to sleep. It's not about whether or not you\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce (44:45):\r\n\r\nTotally.\r\n\r\nAnn (44:46):\r\n\r\n\u2014the resolution of the matter.\r\n\r\nArlene (44:48):\r\n\r\nI know you're going to have Dr. Chapman on. He does the 5 Languages of Apology. We included it in that Screen Kids book. I don\u2019t know if I'll remember all five; but it's: \u201cExpressing regret,\u201d \u201cRestitution: \u2018How can I make this right?\u2019\u201d \u201cAsking for forgiveness: \u2018Will you forgive me?\u2019\u201d That's about as good as I can do; there's two more. But it is\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (45:09):\r\n\r\nThose are really good though, Arlene.\r\n\r\nArlene (45:10):\r\n\r\nIt is this idea that it's not just, \u201cI'm sorry\u201d; but: \r\n\r\n\u201cI acknowledge what I've done.\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cI will not do this again in the future; I'll do my best to not do it again in the future.\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cWill you forgive me?\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cOh, is there something I can do to make it up to you?\u201d\u2014restitution. \r\n\r\nThese different phases to make it feel like, \u201cOh, you really are sorry.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (45:29):\r\n\r\nWe skip that a lot. That's probably when I'm not actually sorry; I just want to get it resolved.\r\n\r\nAnn (45:34):\r\n\r\nI'm the one who probably has always had the harder time apologizing to Dave. I'm quick to apologize to our kids. But to me, in my life, that revealed the pridefulness. That's a pridefulness to not be able to say, \u201cI'm sorry.\u201d You're really quick to do it, I think. And Dave\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (45:54):\r\n\r\nI make more mistakes.\r\n\r\nAnn (45:56):\r\n\r\nNo.\r\n\r\nDave (45:56):\r\n\r\nI need to say it a lot.\r\n\r\nAnn (45:57):\r\n\r\nI don't think so. I remember thinking, \u201cWhy is this so hard for me to apologize?\u201d And it's pride. Do you guys all think apology is really important?\r\n\r\nArlene (46:09):\r\n\r\nIt's how you repair relationships. If something's broken, that does the trick.\r\n\r\nBruce (46:13):\r\n\r\nBut an actual apology\u2014what you were talking about\u2014takes work and humility. So it\u2019s not so easy. \r\n\r\nAnn: We should ask Dr. Chapman about those.\r\n\r\nYou named\u2014did you hit four of them though?\r\n\r\nArlene: Maybe. It's pretty good. \r\n\r\nAnn: Yeah, I think that's good.\r\n\r\nDave (46:26):\r\n\r\nAlright; when's the last time you said, \u201cThank you?\u201d By the way, we're halfway done\u20145\u2014that's only number 5.\r\n\r\nMaria (46:31):\r\n\r\nI think we do that. I don't know when the last time was.\r\n\r\nAnn: See, you guys should feel good about yourselves.\r\n\r\nBruce (46:39):\r\n\r\nLook at us. And I do it more now that we have a newborn. Like I said, having a newborn has actually helped our marriage; because\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria (46:45):\r\n\r\nWe're in a really good place.\r\n\r\nBruce (46:47):\r\n\r\n\u2014because it's easier for me to see how much you're doing. This is not anything on you; it's on me. Even I can't be blind to what you\u2019re doing now.\r\n\r\nMaria (46:56):\r\n\r\nHere's the thing though. I feel like there's has been a change because even with three, I was still doing almost as much.\r\n\r\nBruce (47:03):\r\n\r\nYou were doing nothing; but now that we have a newborn,\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria (47:06):\r\n\r\nEspecially, when we had just moved, and I'm unpacking the house.\r\n\r\nBruce (47:08):\r\n\r\nIt goes right over my head.\r\n\r\nMaria (47:11):\r\n\r\nBut I feel like now, more than ever, you have been noticing. And that for me, frees me to be like\/emotionally, frees me to focus on loving you well. Because I don't feel like I'm constantly trying to make sure that I get seen.\r\n\r\nBruce (47:29):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nArlene (47:30):\r\n\r\nThat's sweet.\r\n\r\nBruce (47:31):\r\n\r\nI think you do a really good job of saying, \u201cThank you.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria: Oh, well, thanks.\r\n\r\nAnn (47:34):\r\n\r\nWhat about\u2014\r\n\r\nArlene: See; you just did it right then.\r\n\r\nBruce: No, thank you!\r\n\r\nAnn: Good job! \r\n\r\nWhat about you, Arlene? \r\n\r\nArlene: When James took me to the airport to bring me here, so that would've been the last time: \u201cThank you for coming early,\u201d and \u201cThanks for bringing me to the airport.\u201d He is very sweet; he put in a note in the suitcase. I like it\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (47:55):\r\n\r\nFor this trip, he did?\r\n\r\nArlene (47:56):\r\n\r\nFor this trip. And it was like: \u201cI know you've been working hard with your book and promoting it. I believe in you 100 percent.\u201d That goes a long way! That goes a long way. \r\n\r\nAnn: So good. \r\n\r\nDave: It sure does.\r\n\r\nAnn (48:09):\r\n\r\nI'm telling you: it doesn't take that much time to do those little things. \r\n\r\nArlene: Exactly!\r\n\r\nAnn: For me, I think it's a pride that wouldn't do it. What I used to think was: \u201cWell, what did he do for me?\u201d\u2014it doesn't matter. It\u2019s: \u201cWhat did Jesus do for me?\u2014that's what matters. As a result of that, and my worship to Him, I'm going to love Dave and respect him in a way that it'll communicate to him that I do. But man, those little things go a long way; I think that's important.\r\n\r\nDave (48:37):\r\n\r\nWell, it's interesting\u2014these\/we're talking about diagnostics\u2014\u201cDo you say, \u2018I'm sorry\u2019?\u201d \u201cDo you say, \u2018Thank you\u2019?\u201d Here's the next one we haven't gotten to yet: \u201cDo you surprise each other?\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (48:47):\r\n\r\nYeah. So one thing I did is\u2014a lot of times, Bruce will take the girls to Sam's Club for dinner, because it's cheap\u2014 \r\n\r\nAnn (48:53):\r\n\r\nOh, it\u2019s so cheap; I just did that with our grandkids.\r\n\r\nBruce: It\u2019s unbelievable.\r\n\r\nMaria (48:55):\r\n\r\nTheir hot dog is dairy-free, so it's safe for Estelle. And so once a week, sometimes; maybe twice a month.\r\n\r\nBruce (49:03):\r\n\r\nAlso, I like their frozen yogurt; so it's like, \u201cHey, I'll do this for you, Honey.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (49:06):\r\n\r\nHe takes all the girls\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: All of them?\r\n\r\nMaria: \u2014to Sam's for dinner\u2014so I can have a couple hours to myself. \r\n\r\nOne night, I packed all the girls in the car; got the house all tidy, because he can't relax if the house is not tidy\u2014and left the house before he got home from work\u2014so that, when he got home from work, there was nobody there. It was just quiet and clean, and he could have some time to himself.\r\n\r\nBruce (49:26):\r\n\r\nIt is so weird to be home with nobody else there. \r\n\r\nDave (49:30):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s your future,\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria (49:30):\r\n\r\nSo he could watch a movie\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014like 50 years from now.\r\n\r\nAnn (49:30):\r\n\r\n\u2014on the projector with the speakers on full volume. \r\n\r\nBruce (49:36):\r\n\r\nYes, I could crank it.\r\n\r\nAnn: Did you do that, Bruce?\r\n\r\nBruce: I did, yes.\r\n\r\nAnn (49:37):\r\n\r\nWhat a sweet gift to each other.\r\n\r\nBruce (49:38):\r\n\r\nYeah, it was my love language.\r\n\r\nMaria: I haven\u2019t done it since.\r\n\r\nBruce: The fact that you did it at all is amazing. \r\n\r\nAnn (49:45):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s really sweet. \r\n\r\nDave: That's cool.\r\n\r\nBruce (49:46):\r\n\r\nIf you set the bar really low\u2014I find if I set the bar really low\u2014then it makes surprises that much easier, like, \u201cOh, you were considerate.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (49:55):\r\n\r\nWe haven't done that kind of thing in a while: \u201cSurprise each other.\u201d \r\n\r\nWhat about you guys?\r\n\r\nArlene (49:59):\r\n\r\nI would have to kind scratch my head, and be like, \u201cWhen did I surprise James?\u201d \u201cWhen did he surprise me?\u201d We\u2019re so planned out. I'm not a spontaneous person, so I'd have to really work on that. \r\n\r\nMaria (50:13):\r\n\r\nMy question, though: \u201cWas it talking about actual planned surprises, or was it talking about\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014spontaneous?\r\n\r\nMaria: \u201cAre you surprised by your spouse?\u201d\u2014how they\u2014 \r\n\r\nArlene (50:22):\r\n\r\nI think you're doing something to surprise them.\r\n\r\nDave: It\u2019s a spontaneous act of kindness.\r\n\r\nArlene: It could be like a note; it could be like cooking.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yours was totally like that.\r\n\r\nMaria (50:28):\r\n\r\nThe way I took it at first was like, \u201cOh, yeah, I've been so surprised at\u201d\u2014how I was talking about how he sees everything that I do since the baby came\u2014\"how accommodating and kind he's been with giving me time to myself and pushing me out the door to go do things with girlfriends, or whatever; because he sees everything that I do. That has surprised me, because it hasn't always been like that.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce: See, that\u2019s the low bar.\r\n\r\nArlene: Well, that is legit. That does answer the question. \r\n\r\nAnn (50:56):\r\n\r\nSpeak to the husband-listener, who's not doing that. Why? What's compelling you? What's helping you to do that?\r\n\r\nBruce (51:08):\r\n\r\nPart of it is\u2014Brandt Hansen talks about\u2014\u201cYou're the keeper of the garden. That's what the man does in the relationship.\u201d Just thinking, \u201cOkay, I want her to flourish as my wife. She does so well when she's with her friends; it's just how she's wired. I just want to see her flourish.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (51:27):\r\n\r\nThat's really sweet. \r\n\r\nArlene (51:28):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s beautiful. \r\n\r\nDave: We were driving, not too long ago\u2014you said, \u201cWe don't do this,\u201d\u2014I'm going to stick up for us. We were driving to our hometown in Ohio, coming from a trip. We pulled into a burger place there called Wilson's Hamburgers. Everybody used to think we started it, and it's where Wendy's came from. It's that hamburger and the frosty. We were driving through their drive-thru; because we're like: \u201cWe're going through Findlay; we got to get a Wilson's hamburger,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (51:51):\r\n\r\nIt's where we both grew up.\r\n\r\nDave (51:52):\r\n\r\n\u2014\"and a Dietsch ice cream.\u201d Theirs is the best ice cream in the country. I'm in the drive-thru; I look across this downtown\u2014little town, 40,000 people\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: It's tiny.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014and there's this new hotel. It's been there a while, but it's gorgeous\u2014really high-end, called the Hancock Hotel\u2014I'm like, \u201cLet's spend the night; we don't have to be home tonight.\u201d Of course, we don't have kids like you guys; we're empty-nesters. She's like, \u201cWhat? We're not spending the night.\u201d \u201cWhy not? We can sleep in; get home tomorrow by noon.\u201d We're like an hour and a half from home.\r\n\r\nAnn (52:21):\r\n\r\nWe didn't do it because I'm like, \u201cI cannot enjoy it right now.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: She's not going to do it. \r\n\r\nArlene: But you tried; you tried.\r\n\r\nAnn: I'm not as spontaneous as he is. But we went home; and then, we planned to come back.\r\n\r\nDave (52:29):\r\n\r\nI booked it a week later; we came back on a Thursday night. I think we might have shared this: when we pulled back into Finlay\u2014again, we did book the hotel, really nice room and where we're going to eat that night\u2014and before we went to the hotel, we stopped at every significant place in our dating relationship.\r\n\r\nAnn (52:48):\r\n\r\n\u2014and in our growing-up relationship, because we both grew up there.\r\n\r\nDave (52:49):\r\n\r\nIt was pretty cool,\u2014 \r\n\r\nAnn (52:51):\r\n\r\nBut when we got to\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (52:52):\r\n\r\n\u2014and that was a surprise.\r\n\r\nAnn (52:54):\r\n\r\n\u2014we went to the cemetery where his little brother was buried.\r\n\r\nDave (52:58):\r\n\r\nHe was buried, Craig.\r\n\r\nAnn (52:59):\r\n\r\nHe was five years old when he died. And so we got out\u2014and Dave had done this every week with your mom\u2014you'd go.\r\n\r\nDave (53:04):\r\n\r\n\u2014growing up. Ann's like, \u201cYou're not going to know where his grave is.\u201d I'm like, \u201cDing, ding, ding; here it is.\u201d It was pouring down rain too. We just stood there and looked at it. She didn't know I went there every week with my mom. I remember, as a kid, thinking, \u201cMom, this is dope stupid. What are we doing?\u201d And now, I realize it wasn't stupid.\r\n\r\nAnn (53:21):\r\n\r\nBut even to have those conversations: \u201cWhat did you feel, as a seven-year-old, when that was your little five-year-old brother?\u201d We went to the schools where we each went to school. We talked about our highlights and the low moments of the school, and where we had our first date on the tennis court. It was so sweet. And that was just like: \u201cMan, just to take the time\u201d; it was a day and one night.\r\n\r\nDave (53:46):\r\n\r\nThat was a great trip.\r\n\r\nArlene (53:48):\r\n\r\nMy goodness.\r\n\r\nDave (53:49):\r\n\r\nDo that folks; do that. Figure out a way to do something significantly special and surprising.\r\n\r\nAnn (53:54):\r\n\r\nAnd maybe, take our little diagnostic test.\r\n\r\nDave (53:56):\r\n\r\nAlright, so we'll do one more marriage diagnostic; we've done six. Kevin DeYoung wrote this blog. You can get that in the show notes if you want to see all ten. I think ours is as good as any of them. But here's the last one: \u201cWhen is the last time you embarrassed the kids together? Being playful and silly with your spouse shows love and provides a positive example for your children.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (54:23):\r\n\r\nWell, we kind of talked about that with the smoochy kiss; we do that.\r\n\r\nDave (54:26):\r\n\r\nThat's embarrassing and memorable.\r\n\r\nBruce (54:29):\r\n\r\nI tell our girls: \u201cYou don't understand how weird your mom and I are. My parents were not like this\u201d; because we'll do crazy dance parties or something, or belt out some \u201880s ballad\u2014or I'm trying to think\u2014I was just like, \u201cYou have no idea how\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014\u201dawesome we are.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce: \u2014normal my parents were.\u201d My parents had self-dignity. And I have this thing where I will try to mispronounce things as bad as I can, but see if Google will still understand me. So I'll be like, \u201cHey Google, what's the fur-cast trrjrr?\u201d And he'd be like, \u201cThe forecast today is\u2026\u201d I'm like, \u201cIt still knew!\u201d I can't even\/my brain can't even wrap my head around my dad doing that.\r\n\r\nMaria (55:17):\r\n\r\n\u2014being goofy.\r\n\r\nDave: Your dad didn\u2019t?\r\n\r\nBruce (55:18):\r\n\r\nHe could be goofy sometimes; but for the most part, he was pretty handsome-dignity.\r\n\r\nDave (55:24):\r\n\r\nI embarrassed\u2014our kids are adults\u2014it's hard to embarrass adults. Remember a couple months, it was last year, they were down here in Florida. Cody, with his kids, was with you. I went over to this little play area, and there was a high school football team there. They were running routes. I'm an old quarterback.\r\n\r\nBruce (55:44):\r\n\r\nI'm embarrassed, just listening.\r\n\r\nDave (55:45):\r\n\r\nI'm watching them run routes, and the guy throwing the ball is terrible. They had those jerseys on; so I thought, \u201cThese guys play somewhere near.\u201d Next thing you know: I'm up there, \u201cYou guys need somebody to really throw the ball?\u201d They look at this old guy\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: Only Dave would do this.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014\u201cGive me the ball,\u201d\u2014and I start whipping it. They're like, \u201cOh, my gosh! You can throw!\u201d They all start lining up. Cody comes over, and he goes, \u201cOnly Dad.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (56:05):\r\n\r\nWait; we come over\u2014we're in a golf cart; all of us\u2014and our son, who was a receiver in the NFL, sees this.\r\n\r\nDave (56:13):\r\n\r\nI threw to him his whole life.\r\n\r\nAnn (56:15):\r\n\r\nWe look over; and there's Dave, in the middle of this field.\r\n\r\nDave (56:19):\r\n\r\nI don't even have shoes on; I have bare feet. \r\n\r\nAnn (56:21):\r\n\r\nAll these\u2014a line of ten high school boys. \r\n\r\nBruce: Nobody asked, right?\r\n\r\nAnn (56:26):\r\n\r\nNobody; he just went up. That's what Cody said: \u201cI guarantee Dad went up, and said, \u2018Hey, you guys need me to throw to you?\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (56:33):\r\n\r\n\u201cI'll throw.\u201d I did.\r\n\r\nAnn (56:34):\r\n\r\nBruce: That's exactly what he did. \r\n\r\nAnn: And then, it was like Cody is like, \u201cI'm not surprised one bit. This is who my dad is\u2014embarrassing\u2014but super cool.\u201d And he goes, \u201cYou know what the crazy thing is? All those kids think he's amazing; he's amazing.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (56:50):\r\n\r\nThey were pretty bad. \r\n\r\nBruce (56:51):\r\n\r\nThat must be a dad thing. My dad used to be Chief of fire and rescue in a little small town that we grew up in. But then, he retired from that. But if we saw an accident or something, he'd get out and start helping. Even if there was crew\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: No, he wouldn't.\r\n\r\nBruce: \u2014\u201cI'd be like, \u201cDad, I think they've got it covered.\u201d He's directing traffic and stuff. It's like you just do what you do.\r\n\r\nAnn (57:13):\r\n\r\nThat's funny. \r\n\r\nArlene, do you have any? \r\n\r\nArlene: We are always embarrassing our children. \r\n\r\nAnn: You are? \r\n\r\nArlene: Yes; because I'll either be like: \u201cOh, can I do it too?!\u201d It's like, \u201cMom, just calm down.\u201d Or I'm taking pictures of everything: \u201cMom, put away your phone. Stop taking pictures of it.\u201d And then, James is constantly\u2014constantly, if there's music going\u2014then his arms are flailing. He's walking down the street like this, and his arms flip.\r\n\r\nAnn: And he's thinking he's super cool. The kids are like, \u201cNo.\u201d \r\n\r\nBruce: Does he know he's not cool?\r\n\r\nArlene: He just does it; he knows he's not cool. And he does it all the time.\r\n\r\nBruce (57:43):\r\n\r\nBut do the girls\u2014\r\n\r\nArlene: \u2014all the time.\r\n\r\nBruce: Do your kids know that he knows that he's\u2014\r\n\r\nArlene (57:46):\r\n\r\nYes, they do; but it's still embarrassing.\r\n\r\nMaria (57:49):\r\n\r\nWe don't have teenagers yet, so our kids: it takes a lot to embarrass.\r\n\r\nDave (57:52):\r\n\r\nThey still think we're funny.\r\n\r\nMaria (57:53):\r\n\r\nYes. \r\n\r\nDave (57:54):\r\n\r\nThat's good. \r\n\r\nBruce: I love it. \r\n\r\nDave: I think the principle here is: \u201cBe free; take the risk to do something crazy.\u201d I used to try and do accents in my sermon sometimes.\r\n\r\nBruce (58:07):\r\n\r\nYou've done them on FLT\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (58:07):\r\n\r\nSo bad, so bad.\r\n\r\nBruce (58:08):\r\n\r\n\u2014on FamilyLife Today.\r\n\r\nDave (58:09):\r\n\r\nAnd the boys were like: \u201cDad, just never even try.\u201d The first one I did is Billy Crystal in some movie, like [imitating], \u201cThat's marvelous!\u201d or whatever. They're like, \u201cYou just don\u2019t.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (58:17):\r\n\r\nFather of the Bride.\r\n\r\nDave (58:18):\r\n\r\nReally?!\r\n\r\nAnn (58:20):\r\n\r\nNo, no.\r\n\r\nDave (58:20):\r\n\r\n\u201cThat's marvelous!\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (58:21):\r\n\r\nIt was something else.\r\n\r\nDave (58:22):\r\n\r\nAnyway, I give up.\r\n\r\nMaria (58:23):\r\n\r\nBruce, when you read aloud to the girls, your voices.\r\n\r\nBruce (58:26):\r\n\r\nYeah. She's way better at the voices.\r\n\r\nAnn (58:28):\r\n\r\nWell I think that the idea, too, is: if we're not intentional with some of these things, it won't happen. And we talk about, at the Weekend to Remember marriage conference for FamilyLife, that we all drift toward isolation. We have to strategically and intentionally move toward oneness. And these are some good ways to make sure that we're moving toward oneness.\r\n\r\nDave (58:50):\r\n\r\nThis brings you back toward oneness. I'm going to say them real quick:\r\n\r\nPray together.\r\n\r\nNotice each other. \r\n\r\nHold hands.\r\n\r\nSay, \u201cI'm sorry.\u201d\r\n\r\nSay, \u201cThank you.\u201d\r\n\r\nSurprise each other.\r\n\r\nEmbarrass each other and the kids. \r\n\r\nAnd guess what?\u2014there's three more. You're going to have to go to the show notes and click on the article to get it. \r\n\r\nArlene, thank you.\r\n\r\nAnn (59:12):\r\n\r\nAmazing. Thanks for being with us. \r\n\r\nArlene: It's been such a joy. Thank you.\r\n\r\nAnn: Hey, thanks for watching. If you'd like this episode,\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (59:21):\r\n\r\nYou better like it.\r\n\r\nAnn (59:21):\r\n\r\n\u2014just hit that \u201cLike\u201d button.\r\n\r\nDave (59:22):\r\n\r\nAnd we'd like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the \u201cSubscribe\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\ncan't say the word, \u201csubscribe\u201d\u2014hit the \u201cSubscribe\u201d button. I don't think I can say this \r\n\r\nword! \r\n\r\nAnn: I can subscribe. \r\n\r\nDave: Look at that! You say it so easily. \u201cSubscribe\u201d; there he goes!\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife.com                                 \r\n\r\n\n"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-317198.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-317198.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__video-wrap video{opacity: 1;}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-is-root-container .uagb-block-e11dbe9f{max-width: 100%;width: 100%;}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-is-root-container.alignfull.uagb-block-e11dbe9f 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you in the thick of raising young kids and wondering how to keep your marriage thriving? Join Dave and Ann Wilson on this lively \"Wilson Original\" episode of FamilyLife Today as they welcome author Arlene Pellicane and the candid Bruce and Maria Goff, parents of four young girls. From essential communication and shared responsibilities&hellip;","meta_box":{"show_notes":"\n<ul>\n<li>Learn more about Arlene on her website at <a href=\"https:\/\/arlenepellicane.com\/\">arlenepellicane.com<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Does your marriage need prayers? <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/content-offers\/marriage-prayers\/\">Grab your prayers now. Just tell us where to send them.<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-08-19.pdf","transcript_content":"\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nGive Your Marriage a Diagnostic Check-up\r\n\r\nGuests: Arlene Pellicane and Bruce and Maria Goff\r\n\r\nRelease Date: August 19, 2025\r\n\r\nAnn (00:00):\r\n\r\nWhen we're not doing well, I do not want to pray; because God confronts our sin and brokenness.\r\n\r\nBruce (00:06):\r\n\r\nIt's like instant: \u201cGod, oh, okay; I see where I'm wrong.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cIt\u2019s me again!\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce: \u201cI'm certain it's a 100 percent her fault\u201d; and then, \u201cLord, oh.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:25):\r\n\r\nOkay; so today, we're going to do a Wilson Original; but because we've run out of original material, we brought some people in to help us. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:34):\r\n\r\nFirst of all, we have Arlene Pellicane with us, who has volunteered to come in.\r\n\r\nArlene: \u201cI want to be part of the Wilson Original.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:42):\r\n\r\nYou're sitting in the middle between two couples. It's like you're a counselor.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:46):\r\n\r\nShe\u2019s a therapist. \r\n\r\nArlene (00:47):\r\n\r\n\u201cThe therapist is in\u201d; not really.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:48):\r\n\r\nArlene, tell us\u2014you've written several books\u2014tell us about those. \r\n\r\nArlene (00:55):\r\n\r\nI write about marriage and parenting: Screen Kids, if you're having trouble with technology; Parents Rising, if you're having trouble because your kids are bossing you around; and Making Marriage Easier if you want to make it easier. Those would be the three I would point people to. \r\n\r\nAnn (01:10):\r\n\r\nShe\u2019s really good to be able to be sitting in this with us.\r\n\r\nDave (01:13):\r\n\r\nI'm looking over to Bruce and Maria Goff, who are with us. They hit each other: \u201cWe need all those books.\u201d \r\n\r\nBruce: I was thinking, \u201cCheck, check, and check; yes.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (01:22):\r\n\r\nOkay; give us a little hint: let our listeners and viewers hear about your family, the stage of life you're in.\r\n\r\nBruce (01:29):\r\n\r\nWe've both nodded at each other. We've got four girls. We've been married 12 years. We've got four girls: nine, six, three, and zero. They are precious, and we love them very much.\r\n\r\nDave (01:40):\r\n\r\nIt sounds like you're convincing yourself. Your job is inside the studio, usually on the other side of that glass.\r\n\r\nBruce (01:47):\r\n\r\nYeah; I had to show Jim, my boss, how to do my job right before I came in here. Took all of three-and-a-half seconds: \u201cPress this button and this button. \r\n\r\nDave: I don't think so; you make it sound\u2014 \r\n\r\nBruce: \u201cAnd then, don't press another button until we're done.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (01:58):\r\n\r\nBut some of our listeners have heard you guys before, because you are honest; you are frank. And when you were in here before\u2014and we've recorded you, Maria\u2014what were we talking about?\r\n\r\nMaria (02:08):\r\n\r\nKeeping score: \u201cHappy couples keep score.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (02:11):\r\n\r\nOh, yeah. \r\n\r\nBruce: But they keep score, positively, of the other person. \r\n\r\nDave: That's no fun. \r\n\r\nBruce: I know; I'm so good at the other one!\r\n\r\nAnn (02:20):\r\n\r\nI just love that you guys are in it\u2014in terms of being parents of [the stage] your kids are in\u2014I think you're in the hardest phase of marriage.\r\n\r\nDave (02:30):\r\n\r\nI'm just glad we're not in it anymore; that's all I got to say.\r\n\r\nAnn: Arlene, how old are your kids? \r\n\r\nArlene: They're 15, 18, 20. We do have kind of a nice bridge here going on.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes. Do you think that they're in the hardest phase of marriage? \r\n\r\nArlene: You are in the busiest; because you are still thinking: \u201cDo we have the diaper bag?\u201d \u201cDo we have the sippy cup?\u201d \u201cThis person needs their food cut\u201d; it is intense. You are totally in the intensity.\r\n\r\nDave (02:52):\r\n\r\n\u201cDo I still like my husband?\u201d \u201cDo I still like my wife?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (02:54):\r\n\r\nI think you're in the biggest comparison; in terms of: \u201cWhose life is harder?\u201d and \u201cWhose life is easier?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: Do you guys feel it?\r\n\r\nBruce (02:59):\r\n\r\nOh, yeah; it's not really a contest. But it's funny you talking about remembering the bag of the diapers and stuff. If we forget a paci, my brain automatically: \u201cIt's her fault,\u201d as if I couldn't have also remembered to bring a paci; but \u201cYou forgot a paci?!\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (03:16):\r\n\r\nIs that what happens?\r\n\r\nMaria (03:18):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nDave (03:19):\r\n\r\nReally? Your brain doesn't go that way?\r\n\r\nMaria (03:21):\r\n\r\nNo; I do blame him for everything you're saying.\r\n\r\nDave (03:25):\r\n\r\nI thought you were going to say \u201csome things.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (03:26):\r\n\r\nNo, I don't expect him to remember the baby stuff. I do mentally feel like I register that: \u201cI'm in charge of collecting the baby things, going out the door.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (03:35):\r\n\r\nBut Maria, you're also homeschooling.\r\n\r\nMaria (03:37):\r\n\r\nYes, I am. [Sigh]\r\n\r\nAnn (03:38):\r\n\r\nDid you hear the sigh?\u2014\u201cYes, I am.\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene: \u2014followed by the giggling. \r\n\r\nAnn: So what are we talking about with these guys?\r\n\r\nDave (03:43):\r\n\r\nWell, I want to ask you guys another question, now, we're here: \u201cDo you guys play the \u201cWhose Life Is Harder\u201d game?\r\n\r\nMaria (03:50):\r\n\r\nWe do.\r\n\r\nBruce (03:50):\r\n\r\nYes, we do; actually, yes. \r\n\r\nMaria: We do.\r\n\r\nDave (03:53):\r\n\r\nYou're in that stage; I know we did.\r\n\r\nAnn (03:54):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s obvious whose life is harder. \r\n\r\nMaria: But I think\u2014yeah, when he said that a while ago\u2014I was thinking, \u201cYou are saying that it is me, right?!\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (04:03):\r\n\r\nIn some ways, having a newborn\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria (04:06):\r\n\r\nWhen you say, \u201cIt\u2019s no contest.\u201d \r\n\r\nBruce (04:06):\r\n\r\n\u2014makes our marriage better because there's no contest. I'm like, \u201cYou're doing more\u201d; you know what I mean? It puts us in that good keeping-track-of-score thing. We're very healthy at this point. It's when they get older, then I'm like, \u201cI feel like I'm doing more.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (04:18):\r\n\r\nWell, honestly, I don't necessarily feel like maybe I am doing more\u2014I don't think of it in terms of I'm doing more\u2014I think of it in terms of: \u201cNo, I am not doing more; but I have more of the mental load.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, interesting. \r\n\r\nMaria: There's stuff that I carry around in my head that he doesn't ever have to think about.\r\n\r\nAnn: Like what?\r\n\r\nMaria: I'm planning for meals; I'm planning lessons; I'm keeping track of schedules; I'm keeping track of medications and dosages\u2014all of those things that he has no idea\u2014if I'm leaving the house, he's like, \u201cHow much does this person get of this?\u2014and whatever\u2014and \u201cIf this happens\u2026\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (04:53):\r\n\r\nYou call your kids \u201cthis person\u201d?\r\n\r\nMaria (04:54):\r\n\r\nIf somebody gets sick, he's like, \u201cWhat do I give them?\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (04:57):\r\n\r\nYeah, but I make my own breakfast; okay? \r\n\r\nMaria: That's true; it's true. \r\n\r\nBruce: It\u2019s Nick Bargatze: \u201cI do my own laundry.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (05:04):\r\n\r\nBut do you have your own list of things in your head, Bruce?\u2014\"Can we make it financially?\u201d \u201cWhat's going on with my job?\u201d \r\n\r\nBruce (05:11):\r\n\r\nYes; \u201cWho's been keeping up with the fertilizer in the yard?\u201d You asked me the other day, \u201cHave we been keeping up?\u201d \u201cYes, we have!\u201d \r\n\r\nMaria (05:17):\r\n\r\nThis is true. \r\n\r\nAnn: Arlene, does that change, do you think, as your kids get older of keeping track?\r\n\r\nArlene (05:21):\r\n\r\nI don't think so. It just continues in that new season\u2014whatever season you're at\u2014you're kind of that way. But it made me think of Pam and Bill Farrel\u2014about the waffles and spaghetti\u2014because the man is just thinking more simply. The male brain is more like: \u201cI need to go to work,\u201d \u201cI need to go pick that up.\u201d The woman has\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: Hey, you didn't have to make it sound dumb [speaking slowly]: \u201cI just have to\u2026\u201d \r\n\r\nBruce: \u201cMe have to go\u2026\u201d \r\n\r\nArlen: We better edit that out. I better\/that's my male impression! \r\n\r\nBut the woman's got a whole big plate of spaghetti on her head; she\u2019s thinking about all these different things all the time. I kind of feel like we, women, just think about things a lot more. \r\n\r\nAnn: And then, as they get older, now you're thinking relational stuff with your kids: \u201cHow are they feeling about their teacher?\u201d and \u201cThat girl who was mean to them.\u201d Now, it becomes this whole relational bundle.\r\n\r\nArlene (06:12):\r\n\r\nThen the husband often is like, \u201cWho's that again?\u201d And then, it's like, \u201cWell that's that friend from the biology class.\u201d \u201cI have no idea who this person is.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (06:19):\r\n\r\nOne of our sons said to Dave, \u201cKnow the people in the game, Dad.\r\n\r\nDave (06:23):\r\n\r\nYou don't have to bring that up.\r\n\r\nAnn (06:24):\r\n\r\n\u201cKnow our friends' names.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (06:27):\r\n\r\nI still don't know their names, and they were in our house all the time. \r\n\r\nDo you feel like\u2014because I, Bruce, I wasn\u2019t like you\u2014I always thought my job was harder\u2014even though, obviously, hers was harder\u2014especially, with three boys under five and a baby in the house. I'm coming in like, \u201cOh, I had such a hard day. I was in a meeting, and I had to go to lunch with this guy.\u201d She's like, \u201cYou went to lunch with somebody?\u201d \r\n\r\nBruce: \u201cQuit grumbling.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: I'm like, \u201cNo, no; I didn't go out today.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (06:53):\r\n\r\n\u201cYou didn't have to cut up anybody's food? What was that like?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (06:56):\r\n\r\nBut I actually had this perception that: \u201cWhat I'm carrying is a lot heavier than yours. You have babies.\u201d I didn't realize it was a lot harder for her, and she wasn't homeschooling! Oh, my goodness!\r\n\r\nBruce (07:07):\r\n\r\nI had to text her the other day; I was like, \u201cOh, I hate doing this, but can I borrow the car? We're having a meeting at Starbucks.\u201d I go home; take the car: \u201cSee ya!\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (07:20):\r\n\r\nActually, you ended up riding with Bobby.\r\n\r\nBruce (07:22):\r\n\r\nOh, that's right. Yeah, never mind.\r\n\r\nMaria (07:24):\r\n\r\nHe worked it out.\r\n\r\nBruce (07:24):\r\n\r\nBobby came through again; that's true.\r\n\r\nDave (07:26):\r\n\r\nDid you have some story\u2014I don't even know what it was about\u2014you moving a tree?\r\n\r\nBruce (07:29):\r\n\r\nOh, yeah. \r\n\r\nMaria: I asked him to go get a tomato plant from my friend, who was moving away. He and Jim come back with this tree! I'm like, \u201cWhat the heck is this?\u201d He's like\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: You just wanted a little plant? \r\n\r\nMaria: \u201cYou said the big plant; you said the big huge one.\u201d I'm like, \u201cThis is not\u2026Do you know what a tomato plant\u2026\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (07:47):\r\n\r\nThe one we took didn't even belong to the people.\r\n\r\nArlene: What?!\r\n\r\n[Unintelligible cross talking]\r\n\r\nAnn (07:50):\r\n\r\nSo wait; wait, Maria. \r\n\r\nBruce: She said like three or four times\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014\u201cBring home that tomato plant,\u201d\u2014 and they come home with a potted tree?\r\n\r\nBruce (07:56):\r\n\r\nAnd three or four times, I'm like, \u201cThat\u2019s not\/you think that's going to fit our car?!\u201d She's like, \u201cI don't know: if you push the seat back.\u201d I'm like, \u201cOkay, I'm going to have to get Jim and his truck for that.\u201d I'm pointing at the tomato plant.\r\n\r\nBruce: There was no pointing. We were inside; and I said, \u201cThe big one?\u201d And you said, \u201cYeah.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (08:12):\r\n\r\nThat was right next to us; the big huge one, yes.\r\n\r\nBruce (08:14):\r\n\r\nI don't remember any pointing going on. \r\n\r\nMaria (08:17):\r\n\r\n\u201cOver there, the big huge one.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce: It was just: \u201c\u2026the big one.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria: \u2014\"the one with the tomatoes on it.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (08:19):\r\n\r\nI think Jim made a great point at the time. \r\n\r\nArlene: It literally had tomatoes on it? \r\n\r\nBruce: Jim said, \u201cWho's dumber: me for not knowing what a tomato plant looks like? Or you for thinking I know what a tomato plant looks like?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (08:30):\r\n\r\nI can't believe two guys did this.\r\n\r\nAnn (08:31):\r\n\r\nSo wait, wait, wait. Did it have tomatoes on it?\r\n\r\nMaria (08:34):\r\n\r\nYes! \r\n\r\nDave: Well, there you go.\r\n\r\nAnn: Bruce! Bruce! \r\n\r\nBruce: I don't know how tomatoes grow. I assume: \u201cIt's just out of season right now.\u201d I don't know! \r\n\r\nDave: I still don't know. I don\u2019t know what you\u2019re saying. \r\n\r\nMaria: He stole the neighbor\u2019s tree. \r\n\r\nArlene: Oh, my.\r\n\r\nMaria: Fortunately,\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: Did you take it back?\r\n\r\nBruce: I brought it back within five minutes. \r\n\r\nMaria:Fortunately, they had already moved away.\r\n\r\nBruce (08:51):\r\n\r\nYes, so it was all good.\r\n\r\nMaria (08:51):\r\n\r\nSo there's nobody in the house.\r\n\r\nBruce (08:53):\r\n\r\nThrew out our backs.\r\n\r\nMaria (08:53):\r\n\r\nNobody actually knew that they stole it. Unless they check their Ring camera or something.\r\n\r\nAnn (08:57):\r\n\r\nWell, here's where we want to go today\u2014not that all that wasn't great\u2014but we have some questions to diagnose the health\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (09:06):\r\n\r\nThese are \u201cTen Diagnostic Questions [for Your Marriage]\u201d\u2014for you and your spouse from Kevin DeYoung. He wrote a blog about it. We're going to go through some of his diagnostics and just hear what you guys have to say. Although\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce (09:17):\r\n\r\nYou could have used these on your tenth anniversary. \r\n\r\nDave (09:20):\r\n\r\nWe could have.\r\n\r\nDave (09:21):\r\n\r\nWe could have, Bruce.\r\n\r\nDave: Thanks for bringing that up\u2014\r\n\r\nArlene (09:23):\r\n\r\nHe's like, \u201cYou brought up the tomato plant; I\u2019m going here!\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (09:26):\r\n\r\n\u2014the day my wife said, \u201cOur marriage is over.\u201d\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nBruce (09:28):\r\n\r\nBecause you thought you were 9.9, and she thought you were a 0.3?\r\n\r\nAnn (09:33):\r\n\r\n\u20140.5; 0.5.\r\n\r\nDave (09:34):\r\n\r\nAt the beginning of this blog\u2014see how I'm transitioning?\u2014he talks about laughter, which isn't even one of the ten; but he says: \u201cThe couple that laughs together lasts together.\u201d \r\n\r\nArlene: I like that. \r\n\r\nDave: Agree, disagree?\r\n\r\nMaria (09:47):\r\n\r\nAgree. \r\n\r\nArlene: Hardy agreement.\r\n\r\nMaria: The times that we have really cracked up together\u2014whatever\u2014we're like, \u201cWe need to do this more.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (09:55):\r\n\r\nArlene, you write about that in your latest book.\r\n\r\nArlene (09:56):\r\n\r\nYou have to have fun together. One of those decisions to make marriage easier is: \u201cTake fun seriously.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (10:03):\r\n\r\nDid you guys do that when you had kids\u2014when they were our\u2019s ages?\u2014like young, under ten. \r\n\r\nAnn (10:08):\r\n\r\nWe went on dates.\r\n\r\nBruce (10:08):\r\n\r\nYeah, prioritize fun.\r\n\r\nDave (10:10):\r\n\r\nWe went on dates; and then, we did fun stuff with the kids.\r\n\r\nAnn (10:13):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nBruce: Oh, yeah. \r\n\r\nDave (10:14):\r\n\r\nWe rented an RV.\r\n\r\nBruce: You guys were like the funnest\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: We did an RV-trip. I didn't want to do it, because it's going to cost money; and they are some of the greatest memories we've ever had.\r\n\r\nAnn (10:22):\r\n\r\nMaking memories is really big for us. It was when our kids were little.\r\n\r\nDave: We had woods behind our house. We put a tent in the middle of the woods, and we slept out there on Friday nights sometimes. My oldest son, who's now an IT with Sharper Image, literally got an extension cord\u2014300 or 400; 500 of them\u2014brought a TV out into the woods. We're like, \u201cWe're not watching TV.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: We watched a war movie.\r\n\r\nDave: \u201cLet's watch war movies out here and pretend we're cowboys in there.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (10:45):\r\n\r\nThen, in the middle of the night\u2014we're in the middle of these woods\u2014in Michigan, there's so many deer. You can hear this snorting sound.\r\n\r\nDave (10:53):\r\n\r\nDid you know deer do that?\r\n\r\nAnn (10:55):\r\n\r\nYou guys,\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (10:55):\r\n\r\nI'm scared to death.\r\n\r\nBruce: I would have thought it was a wild boar.\r\n\r\nArlene: (10:58):\r\n\r\nAfter the war movie, and you\u2019re in the tent?\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes, Arlene! We're all in the tent. \r\n\r\nDave: I didn't even want to look out. I was like, \u201cI don't even want to see what\u2019s out there.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: All I can envision is this buck, with his big antlers. It's in the fall, so he's got his antlers. \r\n\r\nDave: You think they're going to rush the tent: \u201cWhat's this tent doing in my woods?\u201d And they're going to rush us.\r\n\r\nAnn (11:15):\r\n\r\nSo what do you do?\u2014you laugh. You either laugh or you cry, and we laughed. It's awful! So I think that's true: laughter.\r\n\r\nDave (11:23):\r\n\r\nLet's talk about ten questions to diagnose the health of your marriage [\u201cTen Diagnostic Questions for Your Marriage\u201d]. \r\n\r\nBruce: Was that one of them?\r\n\r\nAnn (11:27):\r\n\r\nNo.\r\n\r\nBruce (11:27):\r\n\r\nNo, we haven\u2019t even got to that.\r\n\r\nAnn: We still haven\u2019t gotten one. \r\n\r\nDave: That was just part of it. \r\n\r\nArlene: Going slow. \r\n\r\nDave: That's the 11th one, I guess. \r\n\r\nThe first one Kevin mentions is: \u201cDo you pray together? Healthy marriages pray together.\u201d Yes? What do you guys think?\r\n\r\nMaria (11:42):\r\n\r\nNot enough.\r\n\r\nBruce (11:43):\r\n\r\nNot enough, no. \r\n\r\nArlene (11:45):\r\n\r\nIf it makes you feel any better, I would answer that way too: \u201cNot enough.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Why\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce (11:48):\r\n\r\nWe'll go ahead and answer that way then.\r\n\r\nArlene: I will. \r\n\r\nDave (11:52):\r\n\r\nWe do it about four times a day. So you guys are just losers. \r\n\r\nAnn: No, we don\u2019t!\r\n\r\nDave: No, we do not.\r\n\r\nAnn (11:56):\r\n\r\nHere's my question: \u201cWhy do you think comples don't pray together?\u201d \r\n\r\nDave: Comples?\r\n\r\nAnn: Why do you think couples\u2014\r\n\r\nArlene: I like how he pointed that out. \r\n\r\nDave (12:08):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s laughter. \r\n\r\nBruce: He mocks her.\r\n\r\nDave: I created laughter.\r\n\r\nAnn: Why do you think\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: We got to keep that in; don't edit that out.\r\n\r\nBruce: It\u2019s real.\r\n\r\nAnn (12:11):\r\n\r\nWhy do you think couples don't pray together?\r\n\r\nMaria (12:14):\r\n\r\nBusyness.\r\n\r\nAnn: Tired.\r\n\r\nBruce (12:16):\r\n\r\nWe're not too busy to watch a new series. \r\n\r\nAnn (12:20):\r\n\r\nSee! \r\n\r\n[Unintelligible cross talking] \r\n\r\nMaria: It doesn't take effort; it takes effort to pray. \r\n\r\nAnn: But why does prayer feel like effort? It's just talking. \r\n\r\nMaria: I don\u2019t know; it just does.\r\n\r\nBruce (12:29):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s intimate.\r\n\r\nAnn (12:30):\r\n\r\nI think that's it: it's intimate.\r\n\r\nDave (12:33):\r\n\r\nWe\u2019re having a day here. What do you mean: intimate?\r\n\r\nBruce (12:35):\r\n\r\nIt's like I got to expose myself.\r\n\r\nMaria (12:39):\r\n\r\nIt feels like a chore.\r\n\r\nBruce (12:39):\r\n\r\nShe exposes herself. Yeah, praying to God\u2014that\u2019s\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria (12:43):\r\n\r\nI don't mind the intimacy. To me,\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce (12:44):\r\n\r\n\u2014opening your soul.\r\n\r\nMaria (12:45):\r\n\r\n\u2014that's something that has to be done. So if it has to be done, then it feels like a chore to me. I don\u2019t know. \r\n\r\nAnn: Maybe, that's how you feel. Do you feel like that?\r\n\r\nDave (12:54):\r\n\r\nI can't say that on air.\r\n\r\nMaria (12:55):\r\n\r\nThere's so much in my life that has to be done\u2014and it's like another thing that has to be done\u2014and I'm like, \u201cI don't want to do it. I want to do what I want to do for once today.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (13:04):\r\n\r\nOh, there's something. \r\n\r\nArlene: So then, it's maybe like: \u201cHow do you make it an on-the-way kind of thing?\u201d Not like a thing you have to do: but \u201cOn the way from point A to point B, I'm talking to God.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (13:13):\r\n\r\nObviously, there's a heart issue of: \u201cI need to reorient so that it is something that I want, something that I look forward to.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (13:20):\r\n\r\nSo do you pray during the day\u2014just throughout the day\u2014like: \u201cLord, this is terrible.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria: I do.\r\n\r\nAnn: So you'll do it alone.\r\n\r\nMaria: \u2014on my own, yes. \r\n\r\nDave (13:28):\r\n\r\nLet me ask the ladies this\u2014I've got three of them here\u2014this is me and Bruce asking; Bruce doesn't know what I'm going to ask. \u201cDo you women feel like, when your husband prays or even leads\u2014like, \u2018Hey, let's pray,\u2019\u2014is it romantic? Is there something about it that's like romantically-stimulating toward your man?\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene (13:46):\r\n\r\nI will say, \u201cYes\u201d; because it's like, \u201cOh, this is the man I fell in love with.\u201d One thing I really liked about James when we were dating, he was very spiritually passionate: he'd pray and he'd worship. I just felt like, \u201cWell, you really love God\u201d; so I really liked that. \r\n\r\nI think\u2014to go back to your earlier question of: \u201cSometimes, why don't we pray?\u201d\u2014sometimes it's like, as women, we're waiting maybe for the man to lead to do the prayer. You don't want to feel like, \u201cI'm the wife; and I'm so spiritual, and I'm so godly,\u201d\u2014because women tend to be more: we read; we journal; we do these spiritual activities\u2014but praying, whether you're\u2014it doesn't matter how you pray; you could be praying in the car\u2014it's just a spiritual as praying somewhere else. \r\n\r\nWe're waiting for the man to lead; and then, the man is thinking, \u201cOh, I'm not going to do it good enough, the way the wife wants me to do it. I don't have time to read the study and do all this stuff, so I'm just not going to do it.\u201d I think there\u2019s a little bit of that too.\r\n\r\nAnn (14:44):\r\n\r\nMaria, what was going on in your head? Because your face revealed something different.\r\n\r\nMaria (14:49):\r\n\r\nNo, I have to have an honest moment here of: \u201cThat's not\u2014there are other spiritual things that he does that are attractive and romantic, like you were talking about, to me\u2014but a lot of times, when he decides he wants to do those things, it's when we're in bed at night, and I'm like so tired. It's not what I want to do right then. \r\n\r\nAnn: Are you okay with him\u2014\r\n\r\nArlene: Timing is important.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014just praying over you? \r\n\r\nMarai: Yeah, I would be; but usually, he wants to pray together.\r\n\r\nBruce (15:18):\r\n\r\nA lot of times, I just pray\u2014I'll say, \u201cLet's pray,\u201d\u2014but it\u2019s really just me praying.\r\n\r\nMaria (15:22):\r\n\r\nThat's true; that\u2019s true.\r\n\r\nBruce (15:23):\r\n\r\nI think what happened: we used to pray more before we had kids. We pray, as a family, way more than we pray as a couple. \r\n\r\nArlene (15:29):\r\n\r\nOh, that's good.\r\n\r\nBruce (15:30):\r\n\r\nI think in my head\u2014I'm like, \u201cWe prayed at the dinner table. She was there, so we prayed together,\u201d\u2014but it's not the same.\r\n\r\nAnn (15:37):\r\n\r\nInteresting.\r\n\r\nDave (15:39):\r\n\r\nYou know the stats on couples that pray? It's staggering. Couples that pray together daily\u2014well, no; it didn't say \u201cdaily.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: (15:47):\r\n\r\n\u2014\"on a regular basis.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (15:47):\r\n\r\n\u2014\"regular: one, two or three times, probably, a week,\u201d\u2014divorce rate is 1 in 1,152. \r\n\r\nArlene: Wow; we need to start praying.\r\n\r\nBruce (15:53):\r\n\r\nThat's crazy.\r\n\r\nDave (15:54):\r\n\r\nFifty percent outside of the church.\r\n\r\nAnn: That's motivating. \r\n\r\nDave: Twenty-three percent divorce rate in the church, one in 1,152. It's just like: \u201cThere must be something there.\u201d Well, there's a spiritual thing going on if you're going to be that intimate to say: \u201cWe're going to do this three or four times; maybe, seven times [per week]\u201d\u2014whatever\u2014\"but regularly, this is part of our thing.\u201d It\u2019s a big deal.\r\n\r\nAnn (16:13):\r\n\r\nAnd our prayers are quick; they\u2019re short at night.\r\n\r\nBruce (16:15):\r\n\r\nI was going to say, \u201cWhat does it look like for Dave and Ann Wilson?\u201d Give us a little insight.\r\n\r\nAnn (16:19):\r\n\r\nDon't hold us to any pedestal. It used to look like this: we'd be getting ready for getting in bed. I can tell Dave's getting tired; and so I'd be thinking, \u201cOh, he's going to pray. He's the pastor, after all, of the church of thousands of people.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (16:34):\r\n\r\nI prayed for all the people that day.\r\n\r\nAnn (16:36):\r\n\r\nAnd then, he falls asleep. I'm like, \u201cOh, well, he could pray for them; but he can't pray for us or me.\u201d And then, I have this resentment going on within me. I realized: \u201cSo then, if nobody prays, who wins?\u2014Satan.\u201d Basically, that's how I see it; I'm more black and white. \r\n\r\nWe talked about that. Dave, you still fall asleep sometimes; but \u201cWho cares who prays or who falls asleep?\u201d \r\n\r\nDave: \u201cLet's just pray.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Yeah; \u201cLet's just pray.\u201d And it's quick; it'd be like, \u201cLord, we love you. Thanks for today. Lord, we're really\/this is keeping me up: here\u2019s what's going on\u2026\u201d It's not even three minutes.\r\n\r\nDave (17:13):\r\n\r\nNo, it's very short. And sometimes, we've had seasons\u2014where we got on our knees\u2014and just say, \u201cHey, let's do this for a month.\u201d That's pretty cool. And sometimes, those were 30 seconds; sometimes, they were two minutes. \r\n\r\nAnn (17:26):\r\n\r\nAnd when I come in, and he's already on his knees, to me, that is so romantic.\r\n\r\nDave (17:31):\r\n\r\nShe has never not jumped on her knees beside me; like, \u201cBoom, Baby!\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene (17:35):\r\n\r\n\u201cAre we doing this?\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cAre we praying together?\u201d I feel like we're going to battle! \u201cWe're going to battle; let\u2019s get in there together.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (17:41):\r\n\r\nI remember one time\u2014I think I've maybe shared it\u2014we have a studio at home. It was during COVID, and I had the door shut. It's upstairs; it used to be a bedroom. I grabbed my acoustic; and I'm like [singing], \u201cBless the Lord, o my soul\u201d Bam! The door opens: \u201cAre we worshipping?! Yeah; let\u2019s go.\u201d I'm like, \u201cI sort of wanted a moment by myself.\u201d She's like all over it: \u201cI guess we are!\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (18:07):\r\n\r\nYou\u2019ve never done it again; it makes me so sad! \r\n\r\nDave: I do; I do it real quiet now. \r\n\r\nAnn: That's terrible! \r\n\r\nDave: But there's something I think in that, at least for us, I think\u2014you tell me if women feel this way\u2014but there's something, when you're spiritually moving together, that there's something happening good in your marriage, right? That\u2019s got to be true.\r\n\r\nArlene (18:29):\r\n\r\nIt's like jelling you together.\r\n\r\nDave (18:30):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nAnn: You feel intimate.\r\n\r\nArlene (18:31):\r\n\r\nYou feel like it's working: \u201cWe're closer.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (18:33):\r\n\r\nIt could be the Word\/it could be reading the Bible; it could be praying; you could be singing\u2014anything that you're going vertical\u2014I think connects a couple.\r\n\r\nAnn (18:41):\r\n\r\nBut I will say, Dave, when we're not doing well, I do not want to pray. I don't want to pray with you; I don't even want to pray, because God\u2014the truth of Who He is\u2014confronts your soul. It makes you already know we need to resolve something. \r\n\r\nHow does it look for you guys, Arlene, you and James?\r\n\r\nArlene (18:58):\r\n\r\nIt can be that separate prayer first that you're just praying: \u201cGod, help me to forgive. God, help me to be nice. God, help me to see it how he's seeing it.\u201d And then, coming back together. I do have those quick bathroom prayers, that you go quick in the bathroom: \u201cLord, help me not be mad. Show me: \u2018Why am I mad?\u2019 and \u2018Really, why are you unhappy?\u2019\u201d\u2014\"O my soul\u201d kind of thing. Ask yourself: \u201cWhat is it about that that set me off? What is it that he needs to know that he's not understanding?\u201d A lot of times, it's misunderstanding. It's like: \u201cWhat do I need to communicate more clearly?\u201d It is\u2014you see it in the Gospels, right?\u2014\"Go make it right with the person; and then, come back to Me and offer your offering.\u201d\r\n\r\n(19:38) \r\n\r\nSo I do see it: keeping the marriage in sync is part of your worship; like, \u201cLord, I want to make it right with this person so I can now make it right with You.\u201d Of course, as much as it depends on you, you do it. The other person might not be working with you, but you're only doing your part. \r\n\r\nIt's true, though\u2014a soft heart towards your spouse helps you then have a soft heart towards God\u2014but when you're hardhearted towards your spouse, you\u2019re hardhearted towards God, because you don't want to talk to Him about what's happening. There is a correlation there.\r\n\r\nAnn (20:10):\r\n\r\nDave and I were in this big fight. I was going on a trip; and he was supposed to fix\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWhich one?\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce: I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWhat did Dave do?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (20:17):\r\n\r\nHe was supposed to fix the headlight on this car. I was going to drive five hours. \r\n\r\nDave: Oh, no; do not share that.\r\n\r\nAnn: I had given him a month or two; I'm like, \u201cHey, we've got to get that headlight\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce (20:27):\r\n\r\nThat little amount of time, huh?\r\n\r\nAnn (20:29):\r\n\r\n\u2014a month or two.\r\n\r\nDave (20:31):\r\n\r\nAnd every time: \u201cYeah, I'll get to it; I'll get to it.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (20:33):\r\n\r\nI know that I can't go have it fixed\u2014it would cost too much money\u2014and he would want to fix it himself. The day of this event, where I'm leaving\u2014the kids are little\u2014I come home. I have to take the car he's in. He gets out; I throw my bags in the car. I get in the driver's seat; kiss him. I'm like, \u201cHey, you fixed the headlight; right?\u201d He goes, \u201cOh, I totally forgot.\u201d I just looked at him like, \u201cYou are unbelievable.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (21:00):\r\n\r\nShe was ticked.\r\n\r\nAnn (21:01):\r\n\r\nI was so mad. I leave, and I can see him in my mirror. I can see him saying\u2014and the boys are little, like car-seat little\u2014 \r\n\r\nDave (21:10):\r\n\r\nI'm, literally, throwing them in the car.\r\n\r\nAnn (21:11):\r\n\r\nHe's throwing them in this minivan.\r\n\r\nDave (21:12):\r\n\r\n\u201cFollow me to K-Mart.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (21:14):\r\n\r\nHe's not even putting them in a car seat; I'm like, \u201cLook at\u2014see\u2014that's who I married. Look at him.\u201d I'm driving, and I am so mad. And when I vent\u2014I can vent to God about it\u2014\"Can you believe that, Lord? Look at him. Look, he doesn't even care. I've given him two months; I do everything.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnd then, I hear this little voice: \u201cWhat are you going to be speaking on?\u201d\u2014this is in my head\u2014\"What are you going to be speaking on this weekend to these women?\u2014about how your husband doesn't meet all your needs, and Jesus can meet your needs.\u201d You know what I do? I turn on the radio really loud; because I'm like, \u201cI don't want to hear what God says right now.\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene: \u201cI'm not ready; I\u2019m not ready to hear that.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cLord, I was venting to You; I was venting to You, but I don't want to hear what You have to say.\u201d\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nBruce (21:54):\r\n\r\nBut then, it was on K-LOVE;  and you're like, \u201cAhh!\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (21:57):\r\n\r\nBut anyway, I think, when my heart gets hard, the last thing I want to do is pray;\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce (22:02):\r\n\r\nOh, yeah.\r\n\r\nAnn (22:03):\r\n\r\n\u2014because God confronts our sin and brokenness.\r\n\r\nBruce (22:06):\r\n\r\nIt's like instant: \u201cGod, oh, okay; I see where I'm wrong.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cOh, it's me again!\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce: I'm going into prayer, certain it's 100 percent her fault. And then, \u201cLord, oh\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (22:22):\r\n\r\nYes!\r\n\r\nDave (22:23):\r\n\r\nOr if you have a sin that you need to confess\u2014I know you guys never have any\u2014but\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce (22:28):\r\n\r\nI can imagine that that's hard.\r\n\r\nDave (22:30):\r\n\r\n\u2014there could be. That prevents you; it's like a blockage. You\u2019re right\u2014you said earlier, Bruce\u2014\u201cIt's intimate.\u201d It's like it's hard to fake it.\r\n\r\nAnn (22:39):\r\n\r\nOkay, let's go into the next one: \u201cDo you still notice each other? Physical attraction matters; do you still see and appreciate your spouse's appearance?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (22:50):\r\n\r\nWhen I read that yesterday, I thought, \u201cI believe you're stunning.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (22:54):\r\n\r\nOh, my! \r\n\r\nDave (22:56):\r\n\r\nSee, here we go; that's what she does.\r\n\r\nArlene (22:58):\r\n\r\nShe is! She is stunning.\r\n\r\nDave (22:58):\r\n\r\nI believed that from the day I dated her; I thought, \u201cShe's the hottest thing I ever saw.\u201d I feel the same way now. And I don't say it a lot. I say it now; she's like, \u201cPlease don't even say it.\u201d Look at that reaction. Even when I say it\u2014\"I think you're beautiful,\u201d\u2014she said, \u201cNo, I'm not. I got this; I got this; I got this. I need to...\u201d I'm like, \u201cI just think you're beautiful! I'm not just making it up.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: That\u2019s really sweet. \r\n\r\nDave: Even the other night, laying in this tent\u2014doing this camping marriage thing\u2014I look over, and I'm like, \u201cThis is amazing that she'll even do this. How many wives would say, \u2018I'm not doing this; I'm getting a house\u2019?\u201d And I'm not saying good or bad; I'm just like, \u201cMy wife is willing to do it, and you look great!\u201d I believe that. So I'm just thinking, \u201cDo we say that? Do we\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (23:41):\r\n\r\nGood for you who are watching on YouTube.\r\n\r\nDave (23:44):\r\n\r\nNo, when I read this,\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce: That\u2019s the screenshot there, a thumbnail.\r\n\r\nAnn (23:47):\r\n\r\nOh, yeah; don't use that please.\r\n\r\nDave (23:48):\r\n\r\nPut a picture of us in high school, whatever. \r\n\r\n\u201cDo you still notice each other?\u201d I see it, but I don't say it enough. \r\n\r\nAnn: What do you guys think about that?\r\n\r\nMaria (23:55):\r\n\r\nI was going to say, \u201cI notice him; but I feel like, a lot of times, he doesn't notice me.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (24:00):\r\n\r\nI don't say it nearly enough. I notice\u2014sometimes, I'll say it to the girls\u2014and she'll be like, \u201cWhere's my love?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (24:09):\r\n\r\nDoes that matter to you, Maria? \r\n\r\nMaria: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: It does.\r\n\r\nMaria: It does. \r\n\r\nAnn: And when he doesn't, what do you feel? What goes through your mind?\r\n\r\nMaria (24:16):\r\n\r\nYou have all the thoughts of like: \u201cWell, I must not be attractive anymore.\u201d I don't know.\r\n\r\nBruce (24:21):\r\n\r\nYeah, it's a thing right now in our marriage. I think if we want to get real talk of\u2014at least, for me, an insecurity is\u2014you know that I like your hair down. It's an insecurity\u2014but I was like, \u201cIf she loved me, she'd wear it down more often,\u201d\u2014so I'm always asking you, \u201cCan you wear your hair down?\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (24:38):\r\n\r\n\u201cPull your hair [down],\u201d \u201cYou pull your hair [down].\u201d It drives me insane.\r\n\r\nBruce (24:39):\r\n\r\n\u201cPull your hair [down].\u201d It drives her nuts. \r\n\r\nDave: \u2014because?\r\n\r\nMaria (24:42):\r\n\r\nI'm wiping butts; I am washing dishes; I'm cleaning pee off the floor\u2014I am doing all these things\u2014I don't have time to pull my hair down, and it's getting in my way. But then, it's like I feel like, \u201cOh; well, he doesn't think I'm pretty if I don't pull my hair down.\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene (25:00):\r\n\r\nOh, this is so good; because this is exactly how it is. Because for you\u2014for Maria, it's like\u2014\"I need to put my hair up to do the thing.\u201d And then, for Bruce it's like, \u201cOh, but I just love it so much when your hair is down.\u201d \r\n\r\nMaria (25:15):\r\n\r\nBut it\u2019s more than that; I think it's more than that; because he makes it a love issue\u2014he says, \u201cIf you love me, you would do this,\u201d\u2014he's said that before.\r\n\r\nBruce (25:23):\r\n\r\nWell, and it's not right. \r\n\r\nMaria: \u201cIt feels like such a small thing.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce: It's how I feel. It's wrong, but it's how I feel. \r\n\r\nMaria: \u201cIt feels like such a small thing that you could do that makes me feel loved.\u201d So then, it makes me feel like\u2014on top of everything else, where I feel like I\u2019m failing\u2014something else I'm failing, because I can't pull my hair down or remember to pull my hair down; I'm failing you again.\r\n\r\nAnn (25:39):\r\n\r\nAnd so I would probably feel like\u2014not to not be on your side, Bruce\u2014\u201cDoes that mean I'm ugly when my hair's up?!\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (25:47):\r\n\r\nExactly: \u201cSo I'm not pretty?\u201d That's what I was saying: \u201cThen, I feel like, \u2018Well, I'm not pretty. He doesn't think I'm pretty unless I pull my hair down.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (25:52):\r\n\r\n\u201cIf I want to be somewhat attractive to him, I need to have my hair down. And right now, I don't care about being attractive; I just need to get my kid to go to sleep!\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria: Yes, yes.\r\n\r\nDave (26:01):\r\n\r\nSo how do you help? How do you help that couple?\r\n\r\nBruce: I'm not here to defend myself on this.\r\n\r\nAnn (26:04):\r\n\r\nI know you're not; I know your heart.\r\n\r\nBruce (26:06):\r\n\r\nYou have every right to put it out. \r\n\r\nMaria: I\u2019m saying you brought it up.\r\n\r\nBruce: You have every right not to be bothered about it. So I'm not going to defend myself one bit; it's not right.\r\n\r\nArlene (26:13):\r\n\r\nWe need to give kudos to Bruce for being able to say this; that's kind of a big thing. And then, we're going to retrain you, Bruce, to have all these pictures of Maria, with her hair up\u2014and for you to be like, \u201cOh, I like it that way,\u201d\u2014it's almost like a learning: \u201cI'm going to learn, out of love, how to like your hair this way.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnd then, for you Maria, that out of love that you'll be like: \u201cOh, it's date night; hair's down.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (26:42):\r\n\r\nShe does always do that. \r\n\r\nMaria (26:44):\r\n\r\nI do things like that. \r\n\r\nBruce: It\u2019s not like you never do it.\r\n\r\nMaria: I do try to remember, before he gets home, at least, to pull the hair tie out. But I don\u2019t always remember. \r\n\r\nAnn (26:48):\r\n\r\nEven makeup, when you have little kids, it's the last thing you're thinking about. But then, when you're blonde, and you have no eyebrows and no eyelashes, you're like, \u201cYou can't even see your eyes.\u201d It was\u2014I think my sister wore makeup, and so I got into habit of that\u2014of not doing it all the time\u2014but sometimes. Is that important? It's that same kind of thing.\r\n\r\nMaria (27:13):\r\n\r\nAnd there've been times where he's like, \u201cWell, you always put on makeup when you're going out, when you're going to go see other people; but how come you don't put on makeup for me?\u201d And so not a lot more\u2014I need to do it more\u2014but I will try to just put some of it on before he gets home.\r\n\r\nDave (27:28):\r\n\r\nOn the other side, Bruce, you need to get her out; get her out of the house! \r\n\r\nBruce: You're right. \r\n\r\nDave: Call it \u201cHair out\/hair down night.\u201d  \r\n\r\nBruce: \u201cHair down night.\u201d Yeah, that's great! That's a great example.\r\n\r\nAnn (27:38):\r\n\r\nAnd I'll say, too, as we get older as women\u2014that's why I scoffed\u2014because I thought, \u201cI'm just going to get more mature and more okay with my physical appearance,\u201d\u2014I was like that for a while. And then, you start getting older; and it gets harder and harder. So when Dave says, \u201cOh, you look so good,\u201d I'm like, \u201cNo, I don't; I look like I'm 90 years old.\u201d I think there's something about receiving the compliment as well, which is really healthy. \r\n\r\nArlene, you're shaking your head.\r\n\r\nArlene (28:07):\r\n\r\nI was thinking of the whole noticing thing, because it's true. They just blend in\u2014your spouse just blends in to the whole scene of whatever's happening to your house\u2014and you really do not notice them. I will say that, while my kids were little, I'm noticing my kids, because they're growing; they need stuff. They're always changing; and then, your spouse is the same. You're like, \u201cI already got that; I already saw that.\u201d\r\n\r\n(28:30):\r\n\r\nYou do have to go back. I think that's what the once-a-year, one-day getaway does. What that does is it brings you back to notice each other again\u2014to notice\u2014because you go through phases, where it's like we're not really noticing. It is thinking it through: \u201cI have to do this on purpose.\u201d\r\n\r\nSometimes even, it used to be\u2014of course, when you were dating, you would look at each other for a long time, and it's not a big deal; you're falling in love\u2014but now, if you look at each other: \u201cWhat? Why are you looking at me? Do I have something in my hair?\u2014What?!\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Do I have something in my teeth?\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene: Yeah; \u201cSomething\u2019s wrong?\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene: And so sometimes, I will just even try\u2014James will be in the kitchen\u2014and I will just, on purpose, glance at him a little more, just as a little exercise for myself, to be like, \u201cLet me just actually really look at you.\u201d It's just a few seconds; but just this thought of like, \u201cOh, I want to notice you.\u201d\r\n\r\n(29:20):\r\n\r\nAnd I'm the kind of person, too, I don't notice things\u2014like my husband can trim all\/he had trimmed all of our palm trees; we\u2019re in San Diego\u2014he had spent four hours trimming all the palm trees; I don't notice that at all. I came home, and I think I did the dishes or something. He came in, and he asked me to do something. I was like, \u201cI'm not going to do that; I just did the dishes.\u201d He was like, \u201cI did the palm trees for four hours this morning.\u201d And I was like, \u201cOh, I didn't even notice that you did that. You win; I should do the chore, because you've done that for four hours.\u201d \r\n\r\nWe don't notice what the other person does. I think that idea: \u201cOkay, I'm going to notice what you do\u201d; that goes a long way.\r\n\r\nMaria (30:06):\r\n\r\nI was going to say, \u201cI think that is more of what you would want: is for me to notice what you're doing. You don't really care if I notice how you look, the physical part; that doesn't really mean much to you.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (30:16):\r\n\r\nWe're going to have Gary Chapman in here tomorrow, but who needs him? I'll explain it all. It's a love language thing, where I think you really like words of affirmation; you receive love that way. And I don't so much, and so I don't think to love you that way. \r\n\r\nDave, I love the example that you set just by being so open on this program because you've talked about that one time that Ann came down the stairs and you thought she just looked drop-dead gorgeous. You just thought it and didn't say it; that happens to me. Just the other night, we were on a date on Saturday night, and thought you looked so good. I didn't say a thing. \r\n\r\nMaria: Nope. \r\n\r\nBruce: Just thought it.\r\n\r\nArlene (30:51):\r\n\r\nSo then, see how easy this is! All it is: it\u2019s like, \u201cWow, you look really beautiful tonight, Babe.\u201d It's just one thing; and it's like, \u201cWhoa!\u201d \r\n\r\nMaria: It\u2019s a new habit.\r\n\r\nBruce (30:58):\r\n\r\nThat is a crazy idea.\r\n\r\nMaria (31:01):\r\n\r\nAnd all I need to do is throw my trash away.\r\n\r\nBruce: It's that simple.\r\n\r\nDave (31:05):\r\n\r\nNow, I do think it's really important for men, too,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (31:10):\r\n\r\nI was going to ask: \u201cIs it important for men?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (31:11):\r\n\r\n\u2014to be noticed. \r\n\r\nBruce: Not for me. \r\n\r\nMaria: He doesn\u2019t\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (31:12):\r\n\r\nNoticed in what way? I think that's a good question.\r\n\r\nMaria (31:15):\r\n\r\nThat's the thing: if I notice\u2014because he'll be like cleaning the garage\u2014and I don't care; I don't care about the garage. He cares about the garage.\r\n\r\nAnn (31:22):\r\n\r\nI would; I\u2019d be like, \u201cLook at that garage!\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (31:25):\r\n\r\nI don't care about the garage, \u2014but if I notice\/if I say, \u201cThank you for cleaning the garage,\u201d or \u201cThank you for\u2026\u201d\u2014whatever it is that he did, he appreciates it when I notice the things that he does, not necessarily how he looks.\r\n\r\nBruce (31:39):\r\n\r\nWell, I'm with Ann\u2014she'll [Maria will] say, \u201cHow did I get such a good-looking husband?\u201d\u2014I'm just like, \u201cWhatever. I don\u2019t why you're\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria: He doesn't like it.\r\n\r\nBruce: \u2014\"you're just being funny. You, obviously, don't mean that.\u201d That's part of that.\r\n\r\nAnn (31:51):\r\n\r\nSo the question would be: \u201cYou love it when I notice what?\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Hey, before we continue our conversation, I just want to remind you that our vision at FamilyLife is: \u201cEvery home, a godly home.\u201d We need your help to get there. When you become a FamilyLife Partner, your monthly support makes that vision actually possible.\r\n\r\nDave (32:13):\r\n\r\nAnd listen to this: if you join the FamilyLife Partner program, you'll get access to exclusive updates and events, and the chance to join our \u201cPartners Only\u201d online community. But more than that, you'll be teaming up with us to change the future of families. The question is: \u201cWill you stand with us?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (32:31):\r\n\r\nYou can learn more and become a Partner at FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014just click the \u201cDonate\u201d button at the top\u2014again, that\u2019s FamilyLifeToday.com. \r\n\r\nOkay, let's get back to the conversation.\r\n\r\nDave (32:45):\r\n\r\nI don't care if you think I look good. I'm trying to look good\u2014but look at me\u2014I can't do much! There's not a lot of\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (32:54):\r\n\r\nSee, he\u2019s as bad as I am.\r\n\r\nDave (32:54):\r\n\r\nBut no, even a couple of weeks ago, I was preaching. We stream, so I didn't know she was watching the first service\u2014going to do four that day\u2014and right at the end of my sermon, she texts. I was talking about how all the disciples were martyred\u2014they weren't all\u2014and I didn't have time to say it. I had a whole chart, so I started riffing. I get a text before I\u2019m done with the sermon: \u201cJohn wasn't killed; he was boiled in oil.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (33:19):\r\n\r\nOh, but survived.\r\n\r\nAnn: He survived on the island.\r\n\r\nDave (33:21):\r\n\r\nAnd I didn't even remember. I just put them all in one thing, and I just ran out of time. But all that to say\u2014and I even told the congregation\u2014\"Hey, you got to have a marriage like mine. My wife texted me just to clear it up: \u2018John wasn't killed.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (33:35):\r\n\r\nI thought you could correct it before you ended.\r\n\r\nDave (33:37):\r\n\r\nBut before I went into the next service, I also get a text that says: \u201cThis was really, really good.\u201d Of all the people in the congregation who come up to me, their comments mean nothing. Hers means everything, good and bad. I know she's like, \u201cYou're good, and you just did a great job,\u201d\u2014that's a 10 out of 10 to a guy.\r\n\r\nAnn (33:56):\r\n\r\nBut it says a lot about\u2014that I can do that\u2014because I would come to a later service and see it live. But there's something about Dave, like, \u201cHey, I really love what you see in my messages and what you think I should improve.\u201d That says a lot about you, even.\r\n\r\nDave (34:12):\r\n\r\nYeah, but it's the noticing. I say this at men's retreats; I say it so women can understand this about their man: \u201cYour man is still a little boy, who's saying, Hey, Mom, do you see?\u2014do you see? \u2014do you see?\u2019\u201d We aren't, but we sort of are: we're still looking for you to say [clapping]: \u201cYou're a good man,\u201d \u201cYou're a good husband.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (34:30):\r\n\r\n\u201cAnd I want specifics.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: You do? \r\n\r\nBruce: If I was preaching that sermon, I'd want her to say: \u201cThat point about this,\u201d or \u201c\u2026that,\u201d \u201cMan, that was really good.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: And she did.\r\n\r\nBruce: I'll play like a radio spot for her\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria (34:41):\r\n\r\nBecause that demonstrates that I was really listening.\r\n\r\nBruce (34:42):\r\n\r\nYeah; I want you to, just on your own, say, \u201cWhoa, that little thing right there; that was so cool.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (34:48):\r\n\r\nI always say to Dave: \u201cOh, you're fishing now. You want me to go on about it?\u201d I used to feel like, \u201cWait, really? You need me to\u2026\u201d Now, I realize, \u201cYeah, he does want me to do that.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (34:58):\r\n\r\n\u201cThat was good, but was it the best you ever heard in your life?\u201d or \u201cThat\u2019s what it was\u2026\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (35:01):\r\n\r\nIt's kind of getting down in the weeds. When I played the trailer for \u201cThe Road to Kaeluma\u201d, and you said, \u201cSo is that supposed to be a trailer or a sample?\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (35:10):\r\n\r\nHe got so mad at me, so mad at me. I was like, \u201cWhat did I do? I don't know what I did.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (35:15):\r\n\r\nBut you're right; it's a little-boy insecurity. That's all it is.\r\n\r\nDave: It is. \r\n\r\nMaria (35:18):\r\n\r\nI legitimately didn't know what this piece of audio was supposed to be like. \r\n\r\nBruce: \u201cIt's a trailer! And it\u2019s a really good one!\u201d \r\n\r\nMaria (35:25):\r\n\r\nI asked a question, because I didn't automatically know.\r\n\r\nArlene: \u201cEverybody at work loved it! It\u2019s a trailer.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Arlene, what does James want you to notice?\r\n\r\nArlene (35:32):\r\n\r\nWhat does James want me to notice? I think similar to what Dave is saying\u2014with the accomplishments\u2014the things that are being done. It is funny though: my sweet James is trying to hold onto his hair, and so he does not\u2014 \r\n\r\nDave (35:45):\r\n\r\n\u2014give up. It's a losing battle unless you want to spend a lot of money!\r\n\r\nArlene (35:50):\r\n\r\nIt's like he's working on his appearance in that sense\u2014but he doesn't care\u2014I could notice things, but he doesn't care as much. It's more like he loves to learn. \r\n\r\nMaria (36:01):\r\n\r\n\u201cYou did the palm trees.\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene (36:01):\r\n\r\nHe did the palm trees\u2014he would like that; he would\u2014because he\u2019s the acts-of-service person. If I notice that [he] actually did the act of service\u2014which I have completely ignored\u2014so acknowledgement of that. \r\n\r\nHe really loves respect. So he loves\u2014\u201cThis is the direction we're going with the family,\u201d or whatever it is\u2014and I say, Wonderful,\u201d\u2014even if we need to talk about it; but at the end, I back [him] up; that's huge. That's his thing: \u201cI respect you; I'll back you up.\u201d That's what he wants me to notice. \r\n\r\nDave (36:30):\r\n\r\nBelieve it or not, there's ten of these. We've covered two. I don't know if we're going to even get close to ten; but the next one is: \u201cDo you hold hands?\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (36:39):\r\n\r\nYes, we do. \r\n\r\nBruce: Of course, we do.\r\n\r\nDave (36:41):\r\n\r\nYeah, now you are. \r\n\r\nBruce: All the time. \r\n\r\nDave: You just did. \r\n\r\nAnn: Do you really?\r\n\r\nBruce: Sometimes. It\u2019s usually\u2014unfortunately, look, I'll just make myself look bad continually\u2014you usually are the one who reaches over; I will sometimes.\r\n\r\nMaria (36:54):\r\n\r\nI'm a physical-touch person.\r\n\r\nBruce (36:56):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nAnn (36:57):\r\n\r\nBut I'm glad that you still reach out. \r\n\r\nMaria: I often bring up\u2014when we were dating, we didn't kiss until our wedding day\u2014and so holding hands was a big deal. When we'd be in the car, he would reach over and grab my hand.\r\n\r\nBruce (37:09):\r\n\r\nYour hands are like kissing. \r\n\r\nMaria: \u201cHe's touching me!\u201d \r\n\r\nBruce: Yeah; one time, our elbows touched; it was crazy.\r\n\r\nAnn (37:15):\r\n\r\nThat's really sweet though. Is it important to you, Maria? \r\n\r\nMaria: Yes.\r\n\r\nBruce (37:23):\r\n\r\nWell, I shared this on the Married with Benefits one about physical; one of the episodes is \u201cPhysical Touch.\u201d I shared it\u2014anyway, it doesn't matter\u2014we had friends over. I had heard that day, or read that day, the chapter on physical touch\u2014and how important it is\u2014and just even putting your hand on her back. We had friends over, playing games. I remember just thinking, \u201cI'll just rub her back.\u201d And then, at the end of the night, we're cleaning up; friends are gone. \r\n\r\nDave: You would love that.\r\n\r\nBruce: She said, \u201cYou were so sweet tonight.\u201d I was my normal usual\u2014probably, not the nicest person\u2014I was a jerk, I'm sure. But somehow, because I put my hand on her back,\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria (37:56):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s true. \r\n\r\nBruce (37:57):\r\n\r\n\u2014she\u2019s like: You were so sweet tonight.\u201d I'm like, \u201cOkay!\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene (37:59):\r\n\r\nIt says you learned; right?\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes!\r\n\r\nBruce: I haven't done it since. \r\n\r\nAnn: Now, there is something really powerful about that. I feel like that too.\r\n\r\nDave (38:08):\r\n\r\nI think couples, over years, stop.\r\n\r\nAnn: Arlene, what are you going to say?\r\n\r\nArlene (38:10):\r\n\r\nYeah, I was going to say, \u201cWe\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (38:12):\r\n\r\n\u2014\"don't do it.\u201d\r\n\r\nArlene (38:13):\r\n\r\nYeah; \u201cWe don't do it.\u201d \r\n\r\nWe do it\u2014he'll grab my hand at church when the prayer is happening\u2014he takes my hand, which I really like. I am not a physical-touch person, so it doesn't bother me as much. You know what I'm saying?\u2014it doesn't speak as much. But if we're going on a date, then we will maybe hold hands to the door and out the door; and that kind of thing. But on a regular basis, not as much. \r\n\r\nIt is a really simple way\u2014it does take a reminder\u2014here, even here in studio, we're talking about it. So that's when Bruce and Maria took hands\u2014like, \u201cWe're talking about it,\u201d\u2014so you take hands. So even just listening to this conversation, usually we need a cue. When you're falling in love, you need no cue; you're just so attracted to each other. But later, you need cues, like: \u201cOh, let me take your hand now,\u201d \u201cLet me hold hands.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (38:59):\r\n\r\nWhen Dave does that, I notice every single time. He doesn't: I feel like sometimes you're like, \u201cDon't touch my feet,\u201d or \u201cDon't\u2026\u201d I could be like, \u201cOh\u2026\u201d; and he could care less. But especially, coming from sexual abuse and never in my life being touched except for sexual kind of abuse\u2014because my family wasn't affectionate\u2014so I really noticed just healthy rubbing my back, holding my hand; it does mean so much! \r\n\r\nI would say this for our listeners: \u201cPut it in your phone. If it doesn't come natural, put it as a reminder in your phone: \r\n\r\nArlene: \u201c\u2018Hold hands.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201c\u2018Hold hands.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (39:37):\r\n\r\nIt's interesting; we are so polar opposite in that he does not want to be touched. \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes! That\u2019s Dave.\r\n\r\nMaria: He does not want to be touched.\r\n\r\nBruce (39:43):\r\n\r\nEspecially, if it's repetitive, just like\u2014 \r\n\r\nMaria (39:45):\r\n\r\n\u2014like rubbing the back.\r\n\r\nBruce: \u201cAre you almost done?\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria: \u201cPlease stop.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (39:46):\r\n\r\nSo for you, it wouldn't come natural to do that\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce (39:53):\r\n\r\nNo.\r\n\r\nAnn (39:54):\r\n\r\n\u2014for Maria.\r\n\r\nBruce (39:55):\r\n\r\nHow would you feel, though, if I had a reminder? Does that bother you at all?\r\n\r\nMaria (39:58):\r\n\r\nNo!\r\n\r\nAnn: It wouldn't bother me! \u201cGood; put that reminder; I\u2019ll put it in there for you.\u201d \r\n\r\nDave: Hey, let me ask you this one\u2014it's not in here\u2014but it's in the same category: \u201cDo you ever kiss?\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (40:07):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nDave (40:08):\r\n\r\nLike just kiss without sex or anything else? \r\n\r\nMaria (40:11):\r\n\r\nThe funny thing is what's helped us with that\u2014I think what's made it a thing for us is Bluey\u2014there's an episode of Bluey called \u201cSmooch Kiss.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (40:22):\r\n\r\nThe kids freak out, yes.\r\n\r\nMaria (40:23):\r\n\r\n\u2014when their parents have a smooch kiss. We'll do that now; and be like, \u201cSmoochy kiss.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (40:27):\r\n\r\nAnd then, all our girls go: \u201cAhh!\u201d \u201cYou like it; you would hate it if we didn't.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (40:32):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s so cute. \r\n\r\nMaria: They love the smoochy kiss.\r\n\r\nAnn: You know what?\u2014they'll never forget that. Because for kids, that's total security: \u201cMy mom and dad love each other.\u201d \r\n\r\nWhat about you, Arlene?\r\n\r\nArlene (40:39):\r\n\r\nYears ago, I interviewed Clifford and Joyce Penner\u2014they wrote The Gift of Sex\u2014these sex therapists. My husband was so excited, like, \u201cOh my goodness, you're talking to the sex therapists. I'm so happy.\u201d He couldn't believe it. \r\n\r\nThey suggested the five- to thirty-second kiss every day. They said it's to keep the pilot light lit between you; and that it's clear that it is not the ghost signal\u2014that was the big joke\u2014the woman doesn't want to give the five to thirty-second kiss because\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria: Not every woman does.\r\n\r\nArlene: \u2014not every woman\u2014because then, the man thinks, \u201cOh, this is the ghost signal.\u201d And the woman's just like, \u201cI just want to show love.\u201d So you kind of have a little chat it about it.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cIt's the pilot light\u201d; you're saying.\r\n\r\nArlene: \u201cThe pilot light: to keep that lit.\u201d Whenever we hear things like this, then we're like, \u201cOh, good; let's go back to the daily kiss.\u201d But then, once somebody gets sick, and you're like, \u201cOh, don't kiss me; don't kiss me,\u201d\u2014and then, you get out of the habit. \r\n\r\nOne day, when we have the little kids, James made a chart. He put a chart on the refrigerator of boxes, and we were supposed to check off with the kissing. We were supposed to check off every box if we kissed.\r\n\r\nDave (41:43):\r\n\r\nThat sounds so unromantic.\r\n\r\nArlene (41:44):\r\n\r\nIt was so funny. \r\n\r\nAnn: I love it! I would love that. \r\n\r\nArlene: And it was like with our kids and stuff. \r\n\r\nBruce: You should get stamps. \r\n\r\nArlene: We should.\r\n\r\nBruce: Our kids stamps; you should get stamps.\r\n\r\nMaria: We need to have our grownup stamp chart; smoochy kiss stamps. \r\n\r\nAnn: You should! \r\n\r\nArlene: And one of our kids asked what it was. I wasn't smart enough; I hadn't thought of an answer. I was like, \u201cOh, that's Daddy and my kissing chart.\u201d It was just like, \u201cOkay, that's our kissing chart.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (42:06):\r\n\r\nAnd since then, you didn't know you were dubbing it forever what it was called. \r\n\r\nDave (42:10):\r\n\r\nHere\u2019s the next one: \u201cWhen did you last say, \u2018I'm sorry\u2019?\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (42:15):\r\n\r\nAll the time. \r\n\r\nMaria: All the time.\r\n\r\nDave: Really? \r\n\r\nBruce: Yeah, I don't think we have trouble.\r\n\r\nMaria: No.\r\n\r\nAnn (42:19):\r\n\r\nArlene, is that important; do you think?\r\n\r\nArlene (42:23):\r\n\r\nYes, to be able to own it instead of being like, \u201cWell, it's your fault. I wouldn't have done that if you hadn\u2019t done that.\u201d Really, being quick to be like, \u201cOh, I'm sorry.\u201d Sometimes, we, as women, we\u2019re\u2014\u201cOh, I'm sorry,\u201d \u201cI'm sorry,\u201d \u201cI'm sorry,\u201d\u2014we say it too many times. Sometimes, we don't have to say it so much; but being willing to say, \u201cOh, I did that; I\u2019m sorry.\u201d\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nDave (42:43):\r\n\r\nIs it different than: \u201cI'm wrong,\u201d or \u201cI was wrong\u201d?\r\n\r\nArlene (42:47):\r\n\r\nIt's the same vein; you're just like, \u201cI was wrong.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (42:49):\r\n\r\nIt can be\u2014sometimes, we'll be like\u2014\"I'm sorry you felt that way,\u201d\u2014like, \u201cI didn't do anything wrong,\u201d\u2014\u201cBut I'm sorry you felt that way. It's a you-problem.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (42:56):\r\n\r\nThat's not an apology.\r\n\r\nBruce (42:58):\r\n\r\nI don't remember doing that that often. \r\n\r\nMaria; No, I\u2019m saying I'll do it. \r\n\r\nBruce: I remember hearing Tim Keller's wife\u2014I think her name's Kathy\u2014she was talking about how sometimes Tim would apologize too quickly. She's like, \u201cNo, that's not fair; you can't just immediately apologize.\u201d And that's interesting. Have you ever felt that?\u2014where it's almost like: \u201cYou're getting off the hook too easily: \u2018Oh, we don't have to deal with it anymore; I apologize.\u2019\r\n\r\nAnn (43:23):\r\n\r\nI would feel like that if it hadn't been resolved: \u201cIt's not time for apologies; you're just trying to get out of it,\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce (43:28):\r\n\r\nExactly.\r\n\r\nAnn (43:29):\r\n\r\n\u2014trying to get out of the resolution of figuring it out.\r\n\r\nBruce (43:32):\r\n\r\nI think I'm probably guilty of that. \r\n\r\nAnn (43:33):\r\n\r\nI think people\u2014what is that called in conflict styles? \r\n\r\nDave (43:39):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s the \u201cWin; yield; lose.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (43:40):\r\n\r\nIt's a yielder: \u201cI'm sorry; you're right.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (43:44):\r\n\r\n\u201cWell, no, no, no; we need to hash this out; and then we'll apologize. But you can't just jump there, because I haven't gotten to really share why that was making me feel this way.\u201d\r\n\r\nHave you ever felt that from me, where I jumped to\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria: Yes, 100 percent. \r\n\r\nAnn: Really? \r\n\r\nMaria (43:59):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nBruce: Are you sure?!\r\n\r\nDave: \u201cOne hundred percent.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria: Because I am a feeler, it's important to me, when he's leaving to work or when we're going to bed, I want to leave on an up-note. I don't want to go to bed upset; because then, I can't sleep. And obviously, sleep is not coming easily to me right now anyways with little ones. So I'll be like: \u201cYou forgive me? Come on; you forgive me. I want peace.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (44:22):\r\n\r\nI'm leaving for work; she's like, \u201cSeriously, you're just going to leave for work like this?\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (44:28):\r\n\r\nAnd that just makes it even worse. He's just like, \u201cWhatever; I don't want to talk about it right now\u201d; because it takes him time to process it and flip the switch.\r\n\r\nBruce (44:35):\r\n\r\nWell, you're the one who doesn't want to go to sleep until we've resolved it. When we did that\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria (44:39):\r\n\r\nYou're like, \u201cYou're not really sorry. You just want have peace so you can go to sleep. It's not about whether or not you\u2014\r\n\r\nBruce (44:45):\r\n\r\nTotally.\r\n\r\nAnn (44:46):\r\n\r\n\u2014the resolution of the matter.\r\n\r\nArlene (44:48):\r\n\r\nI know you're going to have Dr. Chapman on. He does the 5 Languages of Apology. We included it in that Screen Kids book. I don\u2019t know if I'll remember all five; but it's: \u201cExpressing regret,\u201d \u201cRestitution: \u2018How can I make this right?\u2019\u201d \u201cAsking for forgiveness: \u2018Will you forgive me?\u2019\u201d That's about as good as I can do; there's two more. But it is\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (45:09):\r\n\r\nThose are really good though, Arlene.\r\n\r\nArlene (45:10):\r\n\r\nIt is this idea that it's not just, \u201cI'm sorry\u201d; but: \r\n\r\n\u201cI acknowledge what I've done.\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cI will not do this again in the future; I'll do my best to not do it again in the future.\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cWill you forgive me?\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cOh, is there something I can do to make it up to you?\u201d\u2014restitution. \r\n\r\nThese different phases to make it feel like, \u201cOh, you really are sorry.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce (45:29):\r\n\r\nWe skip that a lot. That's probably when I'm not actually sorry; I just want to get it resolved.\r\n\r\nAnn (45:34):\r\n\r\nI'm the one who probably has always had the harder time apologizing to Dave. I'm quick to apologize to our kids. But to me, in my life, that revealed the pridefulness. That's a pridefulness to not be able to say, \u201cI'm sorry.\u201d You're really quick to do it, I think. And Dave\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (45:54):\r\n\r\nI make more mistakes.\r\n\r\nAnn (45:56):\r\n\r\nNo.\r\n\r\nDave (45:56):\r\n\r\nI need to say it a lot.\r\n\r\nAnn (45:57):\r\n\r\nI don't think so. I remember thinking, \u201cWhy is this so hard for me to apologize?\u201d And it's pride. Do you guys all think apology is really important?\r\n\r\nArlene (46:09):\r\n\r\nIt's how you repair relationships. If something's broken, that does the trick.\r\n\r\nBruce (46:13):\r\n\r\nBut an actual apology\u2014what you were talking about\u2014takes work and humility. So it\u2019s not so easy. \r\n\r\nAnn: We should ask Dr. Chapman about those.\r\n\r\nYou named\u2014did you hit four of them though?\r\n\r\nArlene: Maybe. It's pretty good. \r\n\r\nAnn: Yeah, I think that's good.\r\n\r\nDave (46:26):\r\n\r\nAlright; when's the last time you said, \u201cThank you?\u201d By the way, we're halfway done\u20145\u2014that's only number 5.\r\n\r\nMaria (46:31):\r\n\r\nI think we do that. I don't know when the last time was.\r\n\r\nAnn: See, you guys should feel good about yourselves.\r\n\r\nBruce (46:39):\r\n\r\nLook at us. And I do it more now that we have a newborn. Like I said, having a newborn has actually helped our marriage; because\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria (46:45):\r\n\r\nWe're in a really good place.\r\n\r\nBruce (46:47):\r\n\r\n\u2014because it's easier for me to see how much you're doing. This is not anything on you; it's on me. Even I can't be blind to what you\u2019re doing now.\r\n\r\nMaria (46:56):\r\n\r\nHere's the thing though. I feel like there's has been a change because even with three, I was still doing almost as much.\r\n\r\nBruce (47:03):\r\n\r\nYou were doing nothing; but now that we have a newborn,\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria (47:06):\r\n\r\nEspecially, when we had just moved, and I'm unpacking the house.\r\n\r\nBruce (47:08):\r\n\r\nIt goes right over my head.\r\n\r\nMaria (47:11):\r\n\r\nBut I feel like now, more than ever, you have been noticing. And that for me, frees me to be like\/emotionally, frees me to focus on loving you well. Because I don't feel like I'm constantly trying to make sure that I get seen.\r\n\r\nBruce (47:29):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nArlene (47:30):\r\n\r\nThat's sweet.\r\n\r\nBruce (47:31):\r\n\r\nI think you do a really good job of saying, \u201cThank you.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria: Oh, well, thanks.\r\n\r\nAnn (47:34):\r\n\r\nWhat about\u2014\r\n\r\nArlene: See; you just did it right then.\r\n\r\nBruce: No, thank you!\r\n\r\nAnn: Good job! \r\n\r\nWhat about you, Arlene? \r\n\r\nArlene: When James took me to the airport to bring me here, so that would've been the last time: \u201cThank you for coming early,\u201d and \u201cThanks for bringing me to the airport.\u201d He is very sweet; he put in a note in the suitcase. I like it\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (47:55):\r\n\r\nFor this trip, he did?\r\n\r\nArlene (47:56):\r\n\r\nFor this trip. And it was like: \u201cI know you've been working hard with your book and promoting it. I believe in you 100 percent.\u201d That goes a long way! That goes a long way. \r\n\r\nAnn: So good. \r\n\r\nDave: It sure does.\r\n\r\nAnn (48:09):\r\n\r\nI'm telling you: it doesn't take that much time to do those little things. \r\n\r\nArlene: Exactly!\r\n\r\nAnn: For me, I think it's a pride that wouldn't do it. What I used to think was: \u201cWell, what did he do for me?\u201d\u2014it doesn't matter. It\u2019s: \u201cWhat did Jesus do for me?\u2014that's what matters. As a result of that, and my worship to Him, I'm going to love Dave and respect him in a way that it'll communicate to him that I do. But man, those little things go a long way; I think that's important.\r\n\r\nDave (48:37):\r\n\r\nWell, it's interesting\u2014these\/we're talking about diagnostics\u2014\u201cDo you say, \u2018I'm sorry\u2019?\u201d \u201cDo you say, \u2018Thank you\u2019?\u201d Here's the next one we haven't gotten to yet: \u201cDo you surprise each other?\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (48:47):\r\n\r\nYeah. So one thing I did is\u2014a lot of times, Bruce will take the girls to Sam's Club for dinner, because it's cheap\u2014 \r\n\r\nAnn (48:53):\r\n\r\nOh, it\u2019s so cheap; I just did that with our grandkids.\r\n\r\nBruce: It\u2019s unbelievable.\r\n\r\nMaria (48:55):\r\n\r\nTheir hot dog is dairy-free, so it's safe for Estelle. And so once a week, sometimes; maybe twice a month.\r\n\r\nBruce (49:03):\r\n\r\nAlso, I like their frozen yogurt; so it's like, \u201cHey, I'll do this for you, Honey.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (49:06):\r\n\r\nHe takes all the girls\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: All of them?\r\n\r\nMaria: \u2014to Sam's for dinner\u2014so I can have a couple hours to myself. \r\n\r\nOne night, I packed all the girls in the car; got the house all tidy, because he can't relax if the house is not tidy\u2014and left the house before he got home from work\u2014so that, when he got home from work, there was nobody there. It was just quiet and clean, and he could have some time to himself.\r\n\r\nBruce (49:26):\r\n\r\nIt is so weird to be home with nobody else there. \r\n\r\nDave (49:30):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s your future,\u2014\r\n\r\nMaria (49:30):\r\n\r\nSo he could watch a movie\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014like 50 years from now.\r\n\r\nAnn (49:30):\r\n\r\n\u2014on the projector with the speakers on full volume. \r\n\r\nBruce (49:36):\r\n\r\nYes, I could crank it.\r\n\r\nAnn: Did you do that, Bruce?\r\n\r\nBruce: I did, yes.\r\n\r\nAnn (49:37):\r\n\r\nWhat a sweet gift to each other.\r\n\r\nBruce (49:38):\r\n\r\nYeah, it was my love language.\r\n\r\nMaria: I haven\u2019t done it since.\r\n\r\nBruce: The fact that you did it at all is amazing. \r\n\r\nAnn (49:45):\r\n\r\nThat\u2019s really sweet. \r\n\r\nDave: That's cool.\r\n\r\nBruce (49:46):\r\n\r\nIf you set the bar really low\u2014I find if I set the bar really low\u2014then it makes surprises that much easier, like, \u201cOh, you were considerate.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (49:55):\r\n\r\nWe haven't done that kind of thing in a while: \u201cSurprise each other.\u201d \r\n\r\nWhat about you guys?\r\n\r\nArlene (49:59):\r\n\r\nI would have to kind scratch my head, and be like, \u201cWhen did I surprise James?\u201d \u201cWhen did he surprise me?\u201d We\u2019re so planned out. I'm not a spontaneous person, so I'd have to really work on that. \r\n\r\nMaria (50:13):\r\n\r\nMy question, though: \u201cWas it talking about actual planned surprises, or was it talking about\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014spontaneous?\r\n\r\nMaria: \u201cAre you surprised by your spouse?\u201d\u2014how they\u2014 \r\n\r\nArlene (50:22):\r\n\r\nI think you're doing something to surprise them.\r\n\r\nDave: It\u2019s a spontaneous act of kindness.\r\n\r\nArlene: It could be like a note; it could be like cooking.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yours was totally like that.\r\n\r\nMaria (50:28):\r\n\r\nThe way I took it at first was like, \u201cOh, yeah, I've been so surprised at\u201d\u2014how I was talking about how he sees everything that I do since the baby came\u2014\"how accommodating and kind he's been with giving me time to myself and pushing me out the door to go do things with girlfriends, or whatever; because he sees everything that I do. That has surprised me, because it hasn't always been like that.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce: See, that\u2019s the low bar.\r\n\r\nArlene: Well, that is legit. That does answer the question. \r\n\r\nAnn (50:56):\r\n\r\nSpeak to the husband-listener, who's not doing that. Why? What's compelling you? What's helping you to do that?\r\n\r\nBruce (51:08):\r\n\r\nPart of it is\u2014Brandt Hansen talks about\u2014\u201cYou're the keeper of the garden. That's what the man does in the relationship.\u201d Just thinking, \u201cOkay, I want her to flourish as my wife. She does so well when she's with her friends; it's just how she's wired. I just want to see her flourish.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (51:27):\r\n\r\nThat's really sweet. \r\n\r\nArlene (51:28):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s beautiful. \r\n\r\nDave: We were driving, not too long ago\u2014you said, \u201cWe don't do this,\u201d\u2014I'm going to stick up for us. We were driving to our hometown in Ohio, coming from a trip. We pulled into a burger place there called Wilson's Hamburgers. Everybody used to think we started it, and it's where Wendy's came from. It's that hamburger and the frosty. We were driving through their drive-thru; because we're like: \u201cWe're going through Findlay; we got to get a Wilson's hamburger,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (51:51):\r\n\r\nIt's where we both grew up.\r\n\r\nDave (51:52):\r\n\r\n\u2014\"and a Dietsch ice cream.\u201d Theirs is the best ice cream in the country. I'm in the drive-thru; I look across this downtown\u2014little town, 40,000 people\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: It's tiny.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014and there's this new hotel. It's been there a while, but it's gorgeous\u2014really high-end, called the Hancock Hotel\u2014I'm like, \u201cLet's spend the night; we don't have to be home tonight.\u201d Of course, we don't have kids like you guys; we're empty-nesters. She's like, \u201cWhat? We're not spending the night.\u201d \u201cWhy not? We can sleep in; get home tomorrow by noon.\u201d We're like an hour and a half from home.\r\n\r\nAnn (52:21):\r\n\r\nWe didn't do it because I'm like, \u201cI cannot enjoy it right now.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: She's not going to do it. \r\n\r\nArlene: But you tried; you tried.\r\n\r\nAnn: I'm not as spontaneous as he is. But we went home; and then, we planned to come back.\r\n\r\nDave (52:29):\r\n\r\nI booked it a week later; we came back on a Thursday night. I think we might have shared this: when we pulled back into Finlay\u2014again, we did book the hotel, really nice room and where we're going to eat that night\u2014and before we went to the hotel, we stopped at every significant place in our dating relationship.\r\n\r\nAnn (52:48):\r\n\r\n\u2014and in our growing-up relationship, because we both grew up there.\r\n\r\nDave (52:49):\r\n\r\nIt was pretty cool,\u2014 \r\n\r\nAnn (52:51):\r\n\r\nBut when we got to\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (52:52):\r\n\r\n\u2014and that was a surprise.\r\n\r\nAnn (52:54):\r\n\r\n\u2014we went to the cemetery where his little brother was buried.\r\n\r\nDave (52:58):\r\n\r\nHe was buried, Craig.\r\n\r\nAnn (52:59):\r\n\r\nHe was five years old when he died. And so we got out\u2014and Dave had done this every week with your mom\u2014you'd go.\r\n\r\nDave (53:04):\r\n\r\n\u2014growing up. Ann's like, \u201cYou're not going to know where his grave is.\u201d I'm like, \u201cDing, ding, ding; here it is.\u201d It was pouring down rain too. We just stood there and looked at it. She didn't know I went there every week with my mom. I remember, as a kid, thinking, \u201cMom, this is dope stupid. What are we doing?\u201d And now, I realize it wasn't stupid.\r\n\r\nAnn (53:21):\r\n\r\nBut even to have those conversations: \u201cWhat did you feel, as a seven-year-old, when that was your little five-year-old brother?\u201d We went to the schools where we each went to school. We talked about our highlights and the low moments of the school, and where we had our first date on the tennis court. It was so sweet. And that was just like: \u201cMan, just to take the time\u201d; it was a day and one night.\r\n\r\nDave (53:46):\r\n\r\nThat was a great trip.\r\n\r\nArlene (53:48):\r\n\r\nMy goodness.\r\n\r\nDave (53:49):\r\n\r\nDo that folks; do that. Figure out a way to do something significantly special and surprising.\r\n\r\nAnn (53:54):\r\n\r\nAnd maybe, take our little diagnostic test.\r\n\r\nDave (53:56):\r\n\r\nAlright, so we'll do one more marriage diagnostic; we've done six. Kevin DeYoung wrote this blog. You can get that in the show notes if you want to see all ten. I think ours is as good as any of them. But here's the last one: \u201cWhen is the last time you embarrassed the kids together? Being playful and silly with your spouse shows love and provides a positive example for your children.\u201d\r\n\r\nMaria (54:23):\r\n\r\nWell, we kind of talked about that with the smoochy kiss; we do that.\r\n\r\nDave (54:26):\r\n\r\nThat's embarrassing and memorable.\r\n\r\nBruce (54:29):\r\n\r\nI tell our girls: \u201cYou don't understand how weird your mom and I are. My parents were not like this\u201d; because we'll do crazy dance parties or something, or belt out some \u201880s ballad\u2014or I'm trying to think\u2014I was just like, \u201cYou have no idea how\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014\u201dawesome we are.\u201d\r\n\r\nBruce: \u2014normal my parents were.\u201d My parents had self-dignity. And I have this thing where I will try to mispronounce things as bad as I can, but see if Google will still understand me. So I'll be like, \u201cHey Google, what's the fur-cast trrjrr?\u201d And he'd be like, \u201cThe forecast today is\u2026\u201d I'm like, \u201cIt still knew!\u201d I can't even\/my brain can't even wrap my head around my dad doing that.\r\n\r\nMaria (55:17):\r\n\r\n\u2014being goofy.\r\n\r\nDave: Your dad didn\u2019t?\r\n\r\nBruce (55:18):\r\n\r\nHe could be goofy sometimes; but for the most part, he was pretty handsome-dignity.\r\n\r\nDave (55:24):\r\n\r\nI embarrassed\u2014our kids are adults\u2014it's hard to embarrass adults. Remember a couple months, it was last year, they were down here in Florida. Cody, with his kids, was with you. I went over to this little play area, and there was a high school football team there. They were running routes. I'm an old quarterback.\r\n\r\nBruce (55:44):\r\n\r\nI'm embarrassed, just listening.\r\n\r\nDave (55:45):\r\n\r\nI'm watching them run routes, and the guy throwing the ball is terrible. They had those jerseys on; so I thought, \u201cThese guys play somewhere near.\u201d Next thing you know: I'm up there, \u201cYou guys need somebody to really throw the ball?\u201d They look at this old guy\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: Only Dave would do this.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014\u201cGive me the ball,\u201d\u2014and I start whipping it. They're like, \u201cOh, my gosh! You can throw!\u201d They all start lining up. Cody comes over, and he goes, \u201cOnly Dad.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (56:05):\r\n\r\nWait; we come over\u2014we're in a golf cart; all of us\u2014and our son, who was a receiver in the NFL, sees this.\r\n\r\nDave (56:13):\r\n\r\nI threw to him his whole life.\r\n\r\nAnn (56:15):\r\n\r\nWe look over; and there's Dave, in the middle of this field.\r\n\r\nDave (56:19):\r\n\r\nI don't even have shoes on; I have bare feet. \r\n\r\nAnn (56:21):\r\n\r\nAll these\u2014a line of ten high school boys. \r\n\r\nBruce: Nobody asked, right?\r\n\r\nAnn (56:26):\r\n\r\nNobody; he just went up. That's what Cody said: \u201cI guarantee Dad went up, and said, \u2018Hey, you guys need me to throw to you?\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (56:33):\r\n\r\n\u201cI'll throw.\u201d I did.\r\n\r\nAnn (56:34):\r\n\r\nBruce: That's exactly what he did. \r\n\r\nAnn: And then, it was like Cody is like, \u201cI'm not surprised one bit. This is who my dad is\u2014embarrassing\u2014but super cool.\u201d And he goes, \u201cYou know what the crazy thing is? All those kids think he's amazing; he's amazing.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (56:50):\r\n\r\nThey were pretty bad. \r\n\r\nBruce (56:51):\r\n\r\nThat must be a dad thing. My dad used to be Chief of fire and rescue in a little small town that we grew up in. But then, he retired from that. But if we saw an accident or something, he'd get out and start helping. Even if there was crew\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: No, he wouldn't.\r\n\r\nBruce: \u2014\u201cI'd be like, \u201cDad, I think they've got it covered.\u201d He's directing traffic and stuff. It's like you just do what you do.\r\n\r\nAnn (57:13):\r\n\r\nThat's funny. \r\n\r\nArlene, do you have any? \r\n\r\nArlene: We are always embarrassing our children. \r\n\r\nAnn: You are? \r\n\r\nArlene: Yes; because I'll either be like: \u201cOh, can I do it too?!\u201d It's like, \u201cMom, just calm down.\u201d Or I'm taking pictures of everything: \u201cMom, put away your phone. Stop taking pictures of it.\u201d And then, James is constantly\u2014constantly, if there's music going\u2014then his arms are flailing. He's walking down the street like this, and his arms flip.\r\n\r\nAnn: And he's thinking he's super cool. The kids are like, \u201cNo.\u201d \r\n\r\nBruce: Does he know he's not cool?\r\n\r\nArlene: He just does it; he knows he's not cool. And he does it all the time.\r\n\r\nBruce (57:43):\r\n\r\nBut do the girls\u2014\r\n\r\nArlene: \u2014all the time.\r\n\r\nBruce: Do your kids know that he knows that he's\u2014\r\n\r\nArlene (57:46):\r\n\r\nYes, they do; but it's still embarrassing.\r\n\r\nMaria (57:49):\r\n\r\nWe don't have teenagers yet, so our kids: it takes a lot to embarrass.\r\n\r\nDave (57:52):\r\n\r\nThey still think we're funny.\r\n\r\nMaria (57:53):\r\n\r\nYes. \r\n\r\nDave (57:54):\r\n\r\nThat's good. \r\n\r\nBruce: I love it. \r\n\r\nDave: I think the principle here is: \u201cBe free; take the risk to do something crazy.\u201d I used to try and do accents in my sermon sometimes.\r\n\r\nBruce (58:07):\r\n\r\nYou've done them on FLT\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (58:07):\r\n\r\nSo bad, so bad.\r\n\r\nBruce (58:08):\r\n\r\n\u2014on FamilyLife Today.\r\n\r\nDave (58:09):\r\n\r\nAnd the boys were like: \u201cDad, just never even try.\u201d The first one I did is Billy Crystal in some movie, like [imitating], \u201cThat's marvelous!\u201d or whatever. They're like, \u201cYou just don\u2019t.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (58:17):\r\n\r\nFather of the Bride.\r\n\r\nDave (58:18):\r\n\r\nReally?!\r\n\r\nAnn (58:20):\r\n\r\nNo, no.\r\n\r\nDave (58:20):\r\n\r\n\u201cThat's marvelous!\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn (58:21):\r\n\r\nIt was something else.\r\n\r\nDave (58:22):\r\n\r\nAnyway, I give up.\r\n\r\nMaria (58:23):\r\n\r\nBruce, when you read aloud to the girls, your voices.\r\n\r\nBruce (58:26):\r\n\r\nYeah. She's way better at the voices.\r\n\r\nAnn (58:28):\r\n\r\nWell I think that the idea, too, is: if we're not intentional with some of these things, it won't happen. And we talk about, at the Weekend to Remember marriage conference for FamilyLife, that we all drift toward isolation. We have to strategically and intentionally move toward oneness. And these are some good ways to make sure that we're moving toward oneness.\r\n\r\nDave (58:50):\r\n\r\nThis brings you back toward oneness. I'm going to say them real quick:\r\n\r\nPray together.\r\n\r\nNotice each other. \r\n\r\nHold hands.\r\n\r\nSay, \u201cI'm sorry.\u201d\r\n\r\nSay, \u201cThank you.\u201d\r\n\r\nSurprise each other.\r\n\r\nEmbarrass each other and the kids. \r\n\r\nAnd guess what?\u2014there's three more. You're going to have to go to the show notes and click on the article to get it. \r\n\r\nArlene, thank you.\r\n\r\nAnn (59:12):\r\n\r\nAmazing. Thanks for being with us. \r\n\r\nArlene: It's been such a joy. Thank you.\r\n\r\nAnn: Hey, thanks for watching. If you'd like this episode,\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (59:21):\r\n\r\nYou better like it.\r\n\r\nAnn (59:21):\r\n\r\n\u2014just hit that \u201cLike\u201d button.\r\n\r\nDave (59:22):\r\n\r\nAnd we'd like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the \u201cSubscribe\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\ncan't say the word, \u201csubscribe\u201d\u2014hit the \u201cSubscribe\u201d button. I don't think I can say this \r\n\r\nword! \r\n\r\nAnn: I can subscribe. \r\n\r\nDave: Look at that! You say it so easily. \u201cSubscribe\u201d; there he goes!\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife.com                                 \r\n\r\n\n","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/317198","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=317198"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/312569"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=317198"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=317198"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=317198"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=317198"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=317198"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=317198"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}