{"id":317196,"date":"2025-08-14T04:31:25","date_gmt":"2025-08-14T08:31:25","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/how-to-reconcile-a-good-god-with-a-hard-life-mark-vroegop\/"},"modified":"2025-08-14T04:31:25","modified_gmt":"2025-08-14T08:31:25","slug":"how-to-reconcile-a-good-god-with-a-hard-life-mark-vroegop","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-to-reconcile-a-good-god-with-a-hard-life-mark-vroegop\/","title":{"rendered":"How to Reconcile a Good God with a Hard Life &#8211; Mark Vroegop"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Are you struggling to reconcile a good God with a hard life? Hosts Dave and Ann Wilson sit down with Mark Vroegop, author of &#8220;Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy&#8221; to explore the vital biblical practice of lament. Mark reveals how lament, though prevalent in Scripture (making up one-third of the Psalms!), is often missing from modern Christian life. Drawing from his own profound experiences with loss, he explains how lament provides a faith-filled language for expressing grief, pain, and doubt directly to God, preventing despair and even the deconstruction of faith.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Are you struggling to reconcile a good God with a hard life? Hosts Dave and Ann Wilson sit down with Mark Vroegop, author of &#8220;Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy&#8221; to explore the vital biblical practice of lament. Mark reveals how lament, though prevalent in Scripture (making up one-third of the Psalms!), is often missing from modern Christian life.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":312569,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/42a38b4b-cb1d-4cee-8ca4-b32501553c07\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"01:19:54","filesize":"73.19M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2873,2866],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[11021],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-317196","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-mental-and-emotional-issues","category-spiritual-disciplines-essentials-faith","cwp_profile-mark-vroegop","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2025\/02\/image_bbee74.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/317196\/how-to-reconcile-a-good-god-with-a-hard-life-mark-vroegop","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/317196\/how-to-reconcile-a-good-god-with-a-hard-life-mark-vroegop","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"OitvLrlx9C\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-to-reconcile-a-good-god-with-a-hard-life-mark-vroegop\/\">How to Reconcile a Good God with a Hard Life &#8211; Mark Vroegop<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-to-reconcile-a-good-god-with-a-hard-life-mark-vroegop\/embed\/#?secret=OitvLrlx9C\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;How to Reconcile a Good God with a Hard Life &#8211; Mark Vroegop&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"OitvLrlx9C\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["42a38b4b-cb1d-4cee-8ca4-b32501553c07"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/42a38b4b-cb1d-4cee-8ca4-b32501553c07\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["01:19:54"],"filesize":["73.19M"],"_thumbnail_id":["312569"],"show_notes":["\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.markvroegop.com\/\">Learn more about Mark at his website<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.markvroegop.com\/books\/dark-clouds-deep-mercy\">Purchase Mark's book, \"Dark Clouds, Deep Grace\" online<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/waiting-isnt-a-waste-the-surprising-comfort-of-trusting-god-in-the-uncertainties-of-life\/\">Purchase Mark's book \"Waiting Isn't a Waste\" at the FamilyLife online store<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/group-studies\/\">See our shop for 25% off Small Group Studies<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-08-14.pdf"],"transcript_content":["\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nHow to Reconcile a Good God with a Hard Life\r\n\r\nGuest: Mark Vroegop\r\n\r\nRelease Date: August 14, 2025\r\n\r\nDave (00:00:00):\r\n\r\nHow can a powerful and loving God allow evil?\r\n\r\nMark (00:00:02):\r\n\r\nSome people think that, in order for Christianity to be real, those two things have to reconcile.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:00:06):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nMark (00:00:07):\r\n\r\nThe answer for that person is: \u201cGod is good, and life is hard. In the Bible, they don't reconcile; they just are. The Psalms of lament show us those two things actually coexist in the Christian faith.\r\n\r\nDave (00:00:25):\r\n\r\nLet's talk about a topic we all need to talk about\u2014and we all need to do\u2014but a lot of us don't understand. That's how I would introduce\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:00:35):\r\n\r\nIs that your little tease?\r\n\r\nDave (00:00:36):\r\n\r\n\u2014to this topic. No, I mean we got Mark Vroegop back with us, talking about something that you think is really important for the Christian community to understand. Right now, everybody's like, \u201cWhat is this?\u201d I'm going to throw it to you: \u201cWhat is it, Mark?\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (00:00:53):\r\n\r\nWe're here to talk about lament\u2014the language that God's people have historically used and is all over the Bible\u2014of how you pray and talk to God when life falls apart.\r\n\r\nDave (00:01:06):\r\n\r\nThere you go. We'll see you next week.\r\n\r\nMark (00:01:08):\r\n\r\nThere we go.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:10):\r\n\r\nAnd that is a new word. I feel like people haven't been using that word until recently, but we've all done it; we've all experienced it. But why do you think it's important now? Because you're writing about it, you've experienced it.\r\n\r\nMark (00:01:24):\r\n\r\nI have. For most of us, we don't set out on a academic discovery of the language of lament. For most of us, lament finds us\u2014we have an event, a situation, a pain, a tragedy\u2014and when a Christian's walking through that, they're trying to figure out: \u201cHow do I grieve and still cling to what I believe? How do I cry, but how do I hope?\u201d The prayer form that we end up experiencing is lament. For most of us, this category explains what's happened in the past or explains what we've been trying to do; that was my experience. After writing Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy, and talking with so many grieving people, the overwhelmingly consistent comment that I hear from people is: \u201cYour book just explained the last couple years of my life.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:02:18):\r\n\r\nWow.\r\n\r\nMark (00:02:19):\r\n\r\nSo lament usually finds us because we're not familiar with this language\u2014and yet, it's a grace\u2014it's all over the Bible. Think of this: one out of every three Psalms are laments. God intended for us to have this language to talk to Him when life really gets hard. The challenge is that, for many of us, we haven't heard about it; we don't know it. But when it's explained, we go, \u201cOh, that's actually what's been going on.\u201d And in doing so, we find some amazing grace.\r\n\r\nDave (00:02:46):\r\n\r\nIt's interesting\u2014I watch you all over the internet\u2014we do our homework and research. You made that comment about a third of the Psalms are lament. A lot of our worship singing in church are the Psalms. Have you ever heard any lament-singing worship songs? It's very rare, isn't it?\r\n\r\nMark (00:03:06):\r\n\r\nThey're certainly out there; but unfortunately, the percentage of laments in the Bible do not reflect the percentage of songs that we sing. I don't want to say one out of every three songs has to be lament in its orientation. We also don't hear lament-oriented prayers; and as a result, we're very unfamiliar with this language. Instead, for most of us in a Western American version of Christianity, we think that the standard of what it means to be a Christian is always be positive and encouraging. In fact, there's radio stations that that's their monicor [enthusiastic voice]: \u201cPositive and encouraging,\u201d which, okay, I get it. \r\n\r\nDave (00:03:45):\r\n\r\nHey, you just did a radio voice too.\r\n\r\nAnn: That sounded really good.\r\n\r\nMark (00:03:47):\r\n\r\nOkay, I can do\u2014I'll do another one\u2014ready? [Deeping voice] \u201cWelcome to Dark and Dreary.\u201d Who's going to listen to that radio station? \r\n\r\nDave: \u201cDark Clouds, Deep Mercy.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:03:57):\r\n\r\nWell , it's funny\u2014because I remember a businessman; he was in his 60s. He said, \u201cI don't even like David\u2014everything I read about him\u2014he seems like such a whiner. And when you read the Psalms, he's just always lamenting.\u201d \r\n\r\nDave: Hey, Mark, I got to tell you\u2014\r\n\r\nMark: You\u2019re [Dave] getting out your guitar right now?\r\n\r\nDave (00:04:12):\r\n\r\nHere we go. \r\n\r\nMark: Okay. For those who can't see this, you\u2019re just going to hear it.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:04:17):\r\n\r\nThis is why you need to watch this.\r\n\r\nDave (00:04:19):\r\n\r\nI am not kidding. I was watching you preach somewhere\u2014it might've been at your church; I don't know\u2014you made that comment that there aren't any worship songs that are sort of based like the Psalms. I thought, \u201cI'm just going to go\u2014and you were referencing Psalm 77\u2014literally, an hour ago, I opened up Psalm 77. I'm in our bedroom, and Ann's like, \u201cYou're not going to do that on there.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Mark's face is like, \u201cWhat is happening?!\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (00:04:45):\r\n\r\nI really don't know what's happening now. \r\n\r\nDave: They can always edit it out. \r\n\r\nMark: I'm actually going to pull my camera out and take a picture of this while you do this. \r\n\r\nDave: You can do whatever you want to do. \r\n\r\nAnn: Has this never happened for an interview? \r\n\r\nMark: No, this has never happened, probably, in the history of mankind; so this is a moment right here. So yeah, that's awesome. \r\n\r\nDave (00:05:02):\r\n\r\nHere\u2019s the thing: I don't even know where it's going to go.\r\n\r\nMark (00:05:02):\r\n\r\nOkay, those are the best songs.\r\n\r\nDave (00:05:06):\r\n\r\nBut I literally opened Psalm 77; I thought [singing]: \u201cWhen I remember God, I moan.\u201d That's a lament.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cI moan.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: [Singing] \u201cWhen I meditate, my spirit faints.\u201d [Musical interlude] \u201cHas the steadfast love forever ceased?\u201d  See, I'm probably getting too happy so far.\r\n\r\nMark (00:05:39):\r\n\r\nNo, you're not. You're doing a great job, actually. \r\n\r\nDave (00:05:41):\r\n\r\n[Singing] \u201cAre His promises ended for all time?\u201d And then, you can just feel him; he's like: \u201cHas God forgotten to be gracious?\u201d Has He, in anger, shut up His compassion? Then, I said, \u2018I will appeal to the years of the right hand of the Most High. I will remember the deeds of the Lord. Yes, I will remember You are the One\u2014 \r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, this feels a little more up now. \r\n\r\nDave: Well, he's getting\u2014\r\n\r\nMark: Well, he turned.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes, yes.\r\n\r\nDave: [Singing]  \u201cI will ponder on Your work and meditate on Your mighty deeds. Your way, O God, is holy; what god is great like our God?\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Wow!\r\n\r\nDave: Anyway, that's what came to me this morning. I'm like, \u201cThere aren't songs written like that.\u201d I don't know if anybody's singing that at church; but what do you think, Mark?\u201d You're dumbfounded over there. He's speechless; look at that!\r\n\r\nMark (00:06:58):\r\n\r\nYeah, I'm actually pretty emotional; that's really amazing.\r\n\r\nDave (00:07:01):\r\n\r\nWow.\r\n\r\nMark (00:07:02):\r\n\r\n[Emotion in voice] I just wish a lot more people would do that; seriously, those words are so important.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:07:14):\r\n\r\nMark, will you read it? Read it; at least, the beginning.\r\n\r\nDave (00:07:18):\r\n\r\nThat is not the response I thought it was going to get.\r\n\r\nMark (00:07:23):\r\n\r\nWell, it's really\u2014it's actually\u2014it's the vision of why I wrote Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy is to have that happen. I couldn't do what you just did. I thought you were joking, but that was legit; that was an amazing song. And yet, it's so important; because we are very unfamiliar with the kind of words that you've just sung. \r\n\r\nHere's what Psalm 77. It's 20 verses; you want me to do them all, or what do you want me to do?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:07:57):\r\n\r\nNo, do the beginning; do the ones that you resonate with.\r\n\r\nMark (00:08:01):\r\n\r\n\u201cI cry aloud to God, aloud to God; and He will hear me. In the day of my trouble, I seek the Lord. In the night, my hand is stretched out, without wearying; but my soul refuses to be comforted. When I remember God, I moan; and when I meditate, my spirit faints. You hold my eyelids open; I am so troubled I cannot speak. I consider the days of old, the years long ago. I said, \u2018Let me remember my song in the night. Let me meditate in my heart.\u2019 And then, my spirit made a diligent search.\u201d\r\n\r\nHere's six rhetorical questions that would freak most people out if anybody prayed them in a small group: \u201c\u2019Will the Lord spurn forever?\u2019 \u2018Will He never again be favorable?\u2019 \u2018Has His steadfast love forever ceased?\u2019 \u2018Are His promises at an end for all times?\u2019 \u2018Has God forgotten to be gracious?\u2019 \u2018Has He, in anger, shut up His compassion?\u201d Then, here's the turn\u2014every lament has a pivot\u2014\u201cThen I said, \u2018I will appeal to this, to the years of the right hand of the Most High. I will remember the deeds of the Lord.\u201d He's taking those rhetorical questions\u2014that he knows aren't true, but they feel true\u2014and that's the thing with laments: there are things in life that feel true that you know aren't true. The question is: \u201cWhat do you do with them?\u201d; lament is the answer: \u201cYou pray them; you talk to God about them; you sing them.\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cI'll remember the work of the Lord. I'll remember Your wonders of old. I will ponder Your work and meditate on Your mighty deeds. Your way, O God, is holy. What god is great like our God? You are the God who works wonders. You've made known Your might among the people. You have redeemed Your people, the children of Jacob and Joseph.\u201d \r\n\r\nThis is my favorite part: \u201c When the water saw You, O God, when the water saw You, they were afraid. Indeed, the deep trembled; the clouds poured out water; the skies gave forth thunder; Your arrows flashed on every side; the crash of Your thunder was in the whirlwind; Your lightnings lighted up the world; the earth trembled and shook.\u201d Here's the money passage: \u201cYour way was through the sea; Your path through the great waters. Yet, your footprints were unseen. You led Your people, like a flock, by the hand of Moses and Aaron.\u201d \r\n\r\n(00:10:23)\r\n\r\nThe reason why that concluding part is so important is because, in the Old Testament, the signature redemptive event was the exodus. That's what he's talking about there at the end. He takes his heart back\u2014he takes questions like: \u201cHas God forgotten to be gracious?\u201d Has He shut up His compassion?\u201d\u2014He takes all of that mess, and he brings it back to the most foundational truth that he knows, which is: \u201cGod delivered us; we're His people. He led us through the Red Sea.\u201d \r\n\r\nIn the New Testament, that moment is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Laments eventually lead us to the bedrock of our faith, which is: \u201cThe Man of sorrows can handle our questions; He can handle our pain. He's the one that prayed on the cross: \u2018My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?\u2019\u201d\u2014Psalm 22; prayed lament. At the end of the day, our hope is that Jesus bought the right to make it right. Lament is the language that helps us get to that point that we could again say, \u201cThat's true. I'm really struggling; and sometimes, I have doubts; but this is true.\u201d Laments, as I define it in the book, are prayers and pain that lead to trust. \r\n\r\nOh, that there would be more people who would write songs like that. I think there are a boatload of people in our churches who need to know that: A) they could sing like that, as far as saying those words; and B) know that this is actually a pathway that leads to hope. It's not a cul-de-sac of sorrows, where we just are always stuck in our grieving.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:11:36):\r\n\r\nThat's a really good point.\r\n\r\nMark (00:11:37):\r\n\r\nThis is a conduit that leads us to mercy and grace. That's why that's a really remarkable moment to have that kind of song out of Psalm 77. Think of this: that for generations, this was the songbook. That\u2019s what they did; they put to music the very words of God. Think of that: one out of every three songs that are sung have that kind of tone\u2014despair, difficulty\u2014and yet, so full of hope.\r\n\r\nDave (00:12:07):\r\n\r\nLiterally, when I heard you say that in your sermon, that's why I grabbed my guitar off the wall, and said, \u201cWhy don't we sing these?\u201d I get it; they can be a little depressing. But they also\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: But we feel depressed. \r\n\r\nDave: \u2014bring life when you\/when the song goes to the turn. You're reminded and man, man, what you just said in the last three minutes is a clip we have to put on YouTube. That was like: \u201cBoom!\u201d That was as well-said as I\u2019ve ever heard it. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:12:35):\r\n\r\nI sat there and just cried; because all of us\u2014every single listener\u2014is experiencing pain at some point in their lives. If it's not right now, it will be in the future\u2014one out of three Psalms\u2014probably one third of our life, if not more, is really hard.\r\n\r\nMark (00:12:52):\r\n\r\nI don't mean to be cute when I say this, but I do think it's helped to reset people's expectations. We talked about yesterday: if one out of every three Psalms are songs of lament, you might think that one out of every three days of your life you're going to have sorrows or difficulties. I think part of the reason why lament is not a language that a lot of Christians today understand\u2014at least, in the spaces in which we live and operate\u2014is because they have a wrong view of what the successful Christian life looks like.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:13:20):\r\n\r\n\u2014especially, in America.\r\n\r\nMark (00:13:22):\r\n\r\nYou can go globally and find believers who understand lament as an intuitive language. You can look at American history: if you were to find the genre that expresses lament in American music history, look no further than African-American spirituals.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:13:37):\r\n\r\nThat's what I was going to say.\r\n\r\nMark (00:13:37):\r\n\r\nSo when people are in a hard place, and they feel like there's no hope in this world, this is the language that they use. It's so incredibly life-giving, both as individuals and for an entire corporate gathering of God's people.\r\n\r\nDave (00:13:53):\r\n\r\nWhen you said that, I was thinking: \u201cWhen I came to Christ in college\u2014I don't think anybody told me this\u2014I just perceived, \u2018Now, life will be easy and good; it'll be awesome.\u2019 If my mentor had said, \u2018Hey, by the way, you just signed up for, every third day, get ready for a hard struggle that God's going to prove Himself to you,\u2019 I'd be like, \u2018Wait, wait, wait; I'm not signing up for that!\u2019 But that's what I signed up for.\u201d You think Jesus will just make it all smooth; and it's going to be easy\u2014the prosperity-type gospel\u2014and it's like, \u201cYeah, that's not what you signed up for. You signed up for a real struggle with Jesus in the boat.\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (00:14:33):\r\n\r\nPart of the reason that I'm passionate about this subject is\u2014not just to help people who are grieving or to explain a biblical category\u2014but one out of every three days being difficult isn't just a Christian experience; that's a human experience. It seems to me that Christians ought to be the best interpreters of pain, sorrow, and difficulties. This is our language; and we know the story\u2014the redemptive arc of creation, fall, redemption, restoration\u2014we know the story. We know that there's coming a day when we won't sing laments anymore. I don't know what songs we're going to sing in heaven. It would be pretty cool\u2014if I'm Keith and Kristen Getty\u2014and we're singing In Christ Alone in heaven. Imagine your song: it made it into the top 50 with the angels, right? \r\n\r\nDave: I don't think so! \r\n\r\nMark: \u201cHey, there's this guy who wrote this song; we're going to sing it together\u201d; imagine that. \r\n\r\nBut there's a whole genre of songs we won't sing anymore, because our faith will be sight; our sorrows will be no more. But in the meantime, this is our language. This is our moment to say, \u201cLook, the Christian faith can handle death, sorrow, and the most difficult questions. In fact, this language is a means to help us in our, long and sometimes difficult, pilgrimage.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:15:42):\r\n\r\nTake us back to when lament became a new language for\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014dark clouds. \r\n\r\nAnn: Take us to the dark clouds.\r\n\r\nMark (00:15:48):\r\n\r\nMan, your song just tripped me. I need to kind of regroup my emotions here. It's funny how, when something's so passionate to you, it kind of opens up a file; and you're like, \u201cWow, that's really, really impactful.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:16:01):\r\n\r\nMusic does that too, doesn't it?\r\n\r\nMark (00:16:02):\r\n\r\nI does. That's the other thing: it's just even processing this moment\u2014I've taught \r\n\r\nPsalm 77 how many times?\u2014but hearing it in a song is just really powerful.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:16:11):\r\n\r\nLet me say too\u2014it was so funny\u2014I was spending time with God this morning. I go through the one-year Bible every year. Listen to what today's Psalm was\u201469\/Psalm 69\u2014listen to this; I thought this is so appropriate for\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (00:16:26):\r\n\r\nYou want me to sing this one?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:16:28):\r\n\r\nThis is so appropriate for our discussion today. This is a Psalm of David: \u201cSave me, O God, for the waters have come up to my neck. I sink in deep mire, where there is no foothold. I have come into deep waters, and the flood sweeps over me. I am weary with my crying out. My throat is parched; my eyes grow dim with waiting for my God. More in number, than the hairs of my head, are those who hate me without cause. Mighty are those who would destroy me, those who attack me with lies. What I did not steal, must I now restore? O God, you know my folly, the wrongs I have done and not hidden from You. Let not those who hope in You be put to shame through me. O Lord, God of hosts, let not those who seek You be brought to dishonor through me.\u201d \r\n\r\nThis is like real stuff! It makes me wonder: \u201cHow often are those my prayers?\u2014\u2018These people hate me, God. Maybe, it's because I'm just messed up,\u2019\u201d\u2014I've prayed those prayers.\r\n\r\nDave (00:17:35):\r\n\r\nThere's part of me\u2014Mark, I'd love to hear you talk about that\u2014that runs away from that\/avoids it. I don't want to feel sad; I don't want to complain\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:17:47):\r\n\r\n\u2014like the guy who said David's a whiner.\r\n\r\nDave (00:17:50):\r\n\r\n\u2014should I? Am I allowed to?\u2014yeah; the guy said David's a whiner. So often, part of my\u2014I think my family of origin\u2019s brokenness, with two alcoholic parents, and divorce, and adultery, and all that, as I was a little boy\u2014I think part of me, from that pain for a lot of my life, I just buried it. I didn't talk about it, didn't even acknowledge it: \u201cI'm good; I'm an athlete.\u201d It's like, \u201cNo; you got to step into the, like you said, dark clouds and process it. What better way to process it than with God?\u201d\r\n\r\nBut as I became a Christian\u2014this is where we're going today\u2014I thought, \u201cI can't remember the process with Him. Nobody complains to God; nobody yells at God.\u201d I hadn't read the Bible that well, so I didn't know it was all over the Bible. I just thought, \u201cThat's one place you can't do that. Maybe, you can do it alone; or maybe, with your spouse or a really good friend; but never with God, because He's going to turn His face away from you.\u201d I think a lot of believers feel that way\u2014that they cannot lament\u2014that it's not spiritual to lament.\r\n\r\nMark (00:18:51):\r\n\r\nAbsolutely; yeah. There's so much for us to unpack in that. Earlier, you asked me about how I came to this; should I go there? And then, I can answer your question.\r\n\r\nDave (00:19:02):\r\n\r\nYeah, start there.\r\n\r\nMark (00:19:03):\r\n\r\nI think that context is a bit instructive. We have twin boys. My wife carried our twins to 39-and-a-half weeks. When they were born, they were six pounds, seven ounces; six pounds, eleven ounces.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:19:17):\r\n\r\nThat's big for twins.\r\n\r\nMark (00:19:18):\r\n\r\nMy wife's like five foot; three inches. So then, we had another son; she carried him full term\u2014beautiful pregnancy\u2014no problems. For us, pregnancy equals \u201cEasy.\u201d And then, our third pregnancy: a few days before delivery, my wife woke me up, and said, \u201cSomething doesn't feel right. Baby hasn't moved, I don't think; and I'm going to jump in the shower.\u201d \r\n\r\nThere's a bigger backstory; it felt like the Lord had been preparing me for suffering of some kind. I began doing some study and some reading on suffering, at a deeper level. She got in the shower; I dropped to my knees, and said, \u201cLord, please not this.\u201d I just had this sense like, \u201cOh, my goodness.\u201d I was just afraid, and I was anxious. \r\n\r\nWell, sure enough, we get to the doctor's office. They put that little\u2014I don't know what it's called\u2014but that thing that you hear the baby's heartbeat. Longest three minutes of my life as the doctor is just searching. I'm like, \u201cGod, please, please, please; let me just hear that sound,\u201d\u2014that [making static sounds]. There was just deafening silence. We go into the ultrasound room. We see our baby in the womb; and he puts it over her heart, and he's like, \u201cI'm sorry I tell you this, but her heart has stopped. Your child has died.\u201d It just rocked my world. \r\n\r\nSo then\u2014I\u2019ll fast forward through some things\u2014my wife has to give birth to a deceased child; she has to go through all the things of labor. And then, we have a couple years of multiple miscarriages, even one where we thought we were pregnant; numbers were going up. We go into the room to see the heartbeat; this is supposed to be celebration day only to have\u2014in the same room, with the same doctor, in the same chair\u2014him say, \u201cI'm sorry, but you have a blighted ovum. You've caught a miscarriage before it's happened.\u201d In the book, I talk about that's when my wife and I went to our car in the parking lot. I asked her if she could pray; and she said, \u201cI'll try.\u201d She said, God, I know You're not mean, but it feels like it today.\u201d What is that?\u2014that's a lament. \r\n\r\nAnd then, we finally got pregnant again. It was the longest nine months of our life\u2014because I lost the husband card, to say, \u201cHoney, I'm sure nothing's going to happen\u201d; because it had\u2014that nine months was just a battle to believe and trust. And today, by God's grace, we have a 19-year-old daughter, Savannah, who was born after our stillbirth daughter, stillborn daughter, Sylvia. \r\n\r\nAs a pastor, I'm still preaching and teaching; I'm marrying and burying\u2014all the things. I'm trying to put together what I believe about God: \u201cHe is sovereign,\u201d \u201cHe is good,\u201d \u201cHe is holy,\u201d \u201cHe has really good purposes,\u201d and \u201cMy life is really hard, and I don't know if I can do this. What if my wife's never happy again? What if this is the last story?\u2014it\u2019s death and a grave.\u201d I'm in between these two worlds. And then, I find that Christians are really unintentionally unhelpful. They're trying to paper over our pain or our questions with: \u201cWell, God can trust you with this\u201d; I'm like: \u201cOkay; well, it doesn't feel like I am trustworthy,\u201d or \u201cMaybe, more people will come to Christ,\u201d \u201cWell, that'd be great; except I'd rather have a living daughter, to be honest.\u201d People were not helpful in kind, but ill-informed, ways. \r\n\r\nI started just to wrestle with this: \u201cHow do you live between the poles of a really hard life but trusting in God's providence and His sovereignty? How do you live with two of those things?\u201d I found that, on most Christian experiences, it's either\/or\u2014either life is all bad; God's dealt me an unfair deck\u2014or it's we trust in His sovereignty, and we ignore how painful it is. \r\n\r\nDave (00:23:02):\r\n\r\nYeah, that\u2019s what I did. \r\n\r\nMark (00:23:06):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s what most\/many Christians do.\r\n\r\nI started teaching on it\u2014exploring this a little bit\u2014and then, I was like, \u201cOh, wait a minute. What's been going on in my life, all these years, is lament; that's what it is.\u201d I didn't have a category for it at the time; I was just trying to survive, trying to live out my theology, while in pain. I started teaching on some of the darker Psalms; I taught through the book of Lamentations. \r\n\r\nThis book came out of real world conversations with hurting people who, after service, were like, \u201cHey, is there anything else on this? I need to explore this further.\u201d Eventually, I got so tired of saying, \u201cI really don't know that there is.\u201d That's when I decided: \u201cI need to put this into some kind of published form.\u201d The title, Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy comes from the juxtaposition in the book of Lamentations\u2014Chapter 2: the Lord has set us under a dark cloud; and Lamentations 3: \u201cThe steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; His mercies are new every morning,\u201d\u2014I think the Christian life is lived in the tension between those two realities: dark clouds often; always deep mercy; and there's grace for the in-between time; it's the language of lament.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:24:13):\r\n\r\nI'm just teary about the whole conversation. I know so many people who have suffered so much. I'm just imagining the couple that we know, that their baby was just still-born. Here's the thing that happens: I've seen so many people walk away from God as a result.\r\n\r\nMark (00:24:29):\r\n\r\nOh, absolutely.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:24:30):\r\n\r\nI'm not sure how to encourage them. What would you say to that? There are so many that: \u201cIf this is who God is, I'm out.\u201d Is it because we haven't learned to lament? What is that, and how can we encourage them or come alongside them?\r\n\r\nMark (00:24:48):\r\n\r\nSo two things on that. Number one: I think you've had Garrett Kell on your program here. Garrett told me and our friends that he had an intern, who made an incredible observation: \u201cHe connected some dots for me.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:25:00):\r\n\r\nAn intern? Alright!\r\n\r\nMark (00:25:01):\r\n\r\nAn intern, yes.\r\n\r\nThey were reading this book; and he said, \u201cI think some people deconstruct their faith because they don't know how to lament.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:25:08):\r\n\r\nOh, that's so true; that is insightful. \r\n\r\nAnn: Me too! \r\n\r\nMark (00:25:11):\r\n\r\nOne of the hardest things is: if you've had pain, but you don't know what to do with it, you begin to think that Christianity isn't legit. I was like, \u201cWow, that's actually really, really helpful.\u201d I think pain creates a tension point of: \u201cHow do I live with the fact of what I believe and my experiences don\u2019t seem to match?\u201d The answer for that person is: \u201cGod is good, and life is hard. Those two things actually coexist in the Christian faith.\u201d \r\n\r\nSome people think that, in order for Christianity to be real, those two things have to reconcile; but in the Bible, they don't reconcile; they just are. The Psalms of lament show us that: in the exact same Psalm, the psalmist can say: \u201cHow long, O Lord,\u201d\u2014Psalm 13\u2014\"have You forgotten me? Will You forget me forever?\u201d And then four verses later, say, \u201cBut I have trusted in Your mercy; I will sing.\u201d It is the fact that Good Friday and Resurrection Sunday are both part of the Christian faith. Part of it is helping people understand that: if you think that Christianity is only resurrection, then you miss that the cross was necessary. If you think Christianity's only the cross, you miss the resurrection hope. You have to have both, and the Bible has words and language that describes that. \r\n\r\nFor your friend, I would say, \u201cListen to these words in the Bible: \u2018Save me, for the waters have come up to my neck.\u2019 The Bible actually, empathetically, understands the pain that you're walking through\u2014in a variety\/kinds of brokenness in the world\u2014and pain tests what it is that we really believe about God. Some people think that lament is to be faithless. It's actually one of the most faith-filled things that you can do; it's one of the most theologically-informed things to do. I think this was Todd Billings, who said this: \u201cIt's precisely out of our theology that we offer complaints to the Lord; because if we believed that He wasn't good, or we believed He wasn't sovereign, then why lament? It's just the normal thing of life: \u2018Bad stuff happens; get over it. Live free; die\u2014 just party\u2014whatever; because life is filled with no connecting dots.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nBut if the Psalmist believes that God is good, and he believes that He's sovereign, then the world in which he lives doesn't fit with his knowledge of who God is. That's precisely why the Psalmist takes the complaints to God, and says to Him, \u201cThis is hard; and yet, I know you're good. But these don't mesh; they don't reconcile.\u201d I think that vision of Christianity is really important; because some people think that, once you come to Christ, you just have all the abundant life. That is not the story: by much suffering and tribulation we enter the kingdom.\r\n\r\nDave (00:28:17):\r\n\r\nI had a woman come up to me at my son's ministry\u2014what?\u2014two months ago, after the service I had preached for my son, that Sunday night. I don't even remember what I preached about. She just came up, and said, \u201cI do not believe that God will ever allow suffering and pain. I have so much suffering and pain in my life, and that's not what the Bible says. That is not\u2014and I need out\u2014I need answers.\u201d \r\n\r\nI should have been compassionate and tender\u2014and I don't know what her suffering and pain was\u2014I just looked at her, and said, \u201cThat is not at all what the Bible says. That is not the Bible. Where have you heard that?\u201d \u201cI've heard that at the other churches I go to.\u201d I go, \u201cThey are lying to you.\u201d I should have been nice; I had heard her say this to so many people; I'm like, \u201cI am going to tell her the straight truth that is not in Scripture. Lament, pain, suffering is part of life; and part of the Christian life in navigating that.\u201d She just looked at me, like, \u201cOkay, I don't want your theology\u201d; and she walked away. I'm like, \u201cOkay; I just told her the truth.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:29:26):\r\n\r\nAnd I had already told her many times;\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014many times. \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014because she's saying, \u201cI was promised that, when I give my life to Jesus, I will have wealth; I will have a great job; I will have an abundance of friendship; and I would not be suffering like I am, right now, in depression.\u201d  And I said, \u201cBut if you read the Scriptures,\u201d\u2014you have to be in the Scriptures\u2014\"to see that all the heroes of the Bible felt all of those hard things of suffering; and yet, God was with them; and He's with you.\u201d But man, when she had that image of: \u201cI should be wealthy, successful\u2026\u201d\u2014phew!\r\n\r\nDave (00:30:01):\r\n\r\nAnd that's sort of the God we manufacture, isn't it?\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:30:05):\r\n\r\n\u2014the genie in the bottle, maybe.\r\n\r\nDave (00:30:06):\r\n\r\n\u2014in the church or outside the church. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:30:08):\r\n\r\nYou can\u2019t see\u2014if you're watching this on YouTube; you can just look at Mark's face, saying, \u201cMmmm.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:30:14):\r\n\r\nI remember\u2014I'm sure you're familiar with Lee Strobel's book, The Case for Christ. But then, The Case for Faith was\u2014I don't remember if it\u2019s his six or eight biggest questions\u2014and the number-one question that people wrestle with\u2014he said\u2014and they walk away from the faith, is: \u201cHow can a powerful and loving God allow evil? I can't reconcile those; I'm out.\u201d He even started the book with some famous theologian, alongside I think Billy Graham; and he [the theologian] walked away. That's what you're saying: that number-one question is answered in Scripture.\r\n\r\nMark (00:30:47):\r\n\r\nIt is. \r\n\r\nDave (00:30:47):\r\n\r\nIt really is.\r\n\r\nMark (00:30:48):\r\n\r\nAt least, it's answered in the sense that there are things that God intends to be left in tension. We just have to realize that we're not the master of the story. Part of our reason for wanting the reconciliation of those is we want to step into the judge's seat and evaluate: \u201cYeah, that's fair,\u201d \u201cYeah, that's good; that makes sense to me.\u201d This is the problem with Job. Job is in a tough place; he's losing everything. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:31:20):\r\n\r\nCan you imagine?!\r\n\r\nMark (00:31:21):\r\n\r\nI cannot. If I'm God, and Job is lamenting to me, I would say, \u201cOkay, look; this isn't about you. I'm sorry, this is really hard. There's actually a contest behind the scenes\u2014it's between me and Satan\u2014and you're stuck in the middle. You're actually the most righteous guy I got. I'm proving something through you. Hang in there; you got this,\u201d\u2014that's what I would do. \r\n\r\nWell, God doesn't do that; He doesn't tell him anything about the behind the scenes. Instead, what does He do? He says, \u201cHey, Job, where were you when I hung the stars in the space? Have you played with Leviathan in the sea?\u201d He basically goes through a series of instructive questions to help Job realize\u2014this is really important\u2014that the \u201cWho?\u201d question in our suffering is so much more satisfying than the \u201cWhy?\u201d question.\r\n\r\nDave: What do you mean?\r\n\r\nMark: Meaning: we want resolution; we want answers. And God says, \u201cThe answer is: \u2018I'm God; I'm sovereign.\u2019\u201d It just depends on how we think about ourselves in the narrative. So many of us think that we're 30 years old; when really, we're 3-year-old kids, talking to our parents, going: \u201cWhy do I have to go to bed?\u201d or \u201cWhy is this happening?\u201d or \u201cWhy won't You let me do this?\u201d Eventually, parents run out of rational arguments for a 3-year-old or a 7-year-old; and where do they eventually revert to? They say, \u201cI'm your mom,\u201d or \u201c\u2026dad. You just have to trust me.\u201d \r\n\r\nWe forget that we're not the parent in the story; we're the child. We're not the judge; we are somebody who is human and fallen. It's all going to be plain; it's all going to be evident\u2014God's going to make it clear; we're going to see the grand plan\u2014and when we see it, maybe in the new heavens and the new earth, we'll say, \u201cYeah, that's the best plan.\u201d But right now, we get the opportunity to live in the tension of experiencing our humanity while we live underneath the umbrella of God's sovereignty.\r\n\r\nDave (00:33:20):\r\n\r\nI have a good buddy who played quarterback for the Lions, was an amazing man of God. When he was our quarterback, we baptized 27 people largely because of Jon and Jenny's marriage; it was amazing. I'll never forget\u2014Jon is pretty bold in his faith; big evangelist\u2014Jon Kitna. \r\n\r\nAfter a game that he got pulled in the fourth quarter, he's doing the press conference after the game\u2014he says this\u2014they say, \u201cHey, you feel like it was wrong for Coach to pull you in the fourth quarter?\u201d He looks at this room of reporters, and says, \u201cI don't think it was wrong at all. You know what I deserved?\u201d\u2014Oh, no! They used the word,  \u201cdeserved\u201d; \u201cDo you think you deserved to be pulled?\u201d\u2014he goes\/he looked at them, and goes, \u201cYou know what I deserve? I deserve hell. I deserve hell because of my sin. That's what I deserve.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:05):\r\n\r\nI forgot he did that!\r\n\r\nDave (00:34:05):\r\n\r\nThe room was like, \u201cWhat?!\u201d He goes, \u201cCome on; seriously, if Coach wants to make that call, he makes that call. If you want to know what we deserve, we deserve the pit of hell.\u201d We're all sitting; he just thought, \u201cI'm going to be an evangelist here.\u201d Well, it didn't go over real well; but it made the papers.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:21):\r\n\r\nWell, let me go back to what you said about Job; because some listeners caught that: \u201cWait a minute. So this is just some test between God and Satan, and Job's the one who has to suffer? What kind of God would allow that?!\u201d It's like a little, \u201cOoh!\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (00:34:34):\r\n\r\nWell, a God whose glory and goodness is so amazing that those things\u2014including human beings, and our hardships and difficulty that end up giving Him glory\u2014actually, it's the best thing in the world for those people and for the creation. The problem is\u2014again, who are we in the narrative?\u2014 the child doesn't understand the value of what's behind Mom and Dad's decision.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:56):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nMark (00:34:56):\r\n\r\nAnd so the ability to trust God in the most difficult moments in life comes from an understanding that God, not only is trustworthy, but that His grace is amazing; and He knows better than I do. There's a plan here somewhere. Just because I can't see it doesn't mean that it's not good or it's not real. \r\n\r\nSo many of us\u2014again, we think: \u201cProve it! Prove that this is worth it,\u201d \u201cProve that this is fair,\u201d \u201cProve that this makes sense,\u201d\u2014God doesn\u2019t have to prove anything to me. The reality is: I'm the problem, not Him. My sin and my separation from Him is what's caused my own shortcomings in the world and my sinful responses. When you understand the beauty of God's grace, it allows you to see suffering and hardship in light of the bringing of what it is that God's going to provide to help us both love Him and follow Him even better.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:35:56):\r\n\r\nThat's good.\r\n\r\nMark (00:35:56):\r\n\r\nI mean, that's the whole argument of Romans 8: \u201cAll things work together for good to make us more conformed to the image of Christ.\u201d If you take that verse, and you remove the image of Christ out of the verse, it just sounds like all things work together for good in a way that makes me happy, wealthy, and wise. It shapes me into the likeness of Christ; and the question is whether or not I actually value that.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:36:19):\r\n\r\nI remember our friend, Jamie Winship, once said, \u201cGod doesn't answer our \u201cWhy?\u201d questions; but He will answer: \u201cWhat do You want me to know through this situation?\u201d I thought, \u201cOh, so many of us have those \u2018Why?\u2019 questions. We usually don't get them answered. A lot of times, we don't; but we are learning, and God's trying to teach us.\r\n\r\nMark (00:36:40):\r\n\r\nIn my own story here, in 2004, I've got a grieving wife, crying kids, trying to be a pastor. Let me be clear: I would much rather have a 21-year-old daughter than a book on this subject; hard stuff. In fact, if I had a choice, I know what I'd choose. I would've never discovered lament would I have not gone after the subject. \r\n\r\nI just think of the number of people today who know my daughter's name\u2014who know the story\u2014who have found healing and grace through talking about the subject of lament. It's so incredibly life-giving, and I'm really grateful I didn't have a choice in the matter. I'm actually thankful that God is sovereign over all those things; because I know what I would've chosen. Someday, some way, God will explain it all; and He'll make sense of it. I think it was William Cooper who said, \u201cJudge not the Lord by feeble sense, but trust Him for His grace. Behind a frowning providence, He hides a smiling face.\u201d That's really, really important, written by a guy who understood the depths of despair, difficulty, and depression.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:37:53):\r\n\r\nWell, I think we need you to walk us through all the things that God taught you; because I know that this book has ministered to so many. What you've gone through has helped people. It's helped all of us learn how to truly lament. So where would we start? If somebody's like, \u201cThis is all me. This is me; I need this,\u201d\u2014get the book, first of all\u2014but walk us through some of the most important things.\r\n\r\nMark (00:38:15):\r\n\r\nWe'll start with the definition. I define lament as: \u201cAa prayer, in pain, that leads to trust.\u201d Every one of those words and phrases are important. \u201cIt's a prayer\u201d\u2014it's Christian language\u2014where I'm talking to God. All human beings cry\u2014it's how we enter the world\u2014humans cry. To cry is human, but to lament is uniquely Christian. \r\n\r\nIt's the language that God's people talk to God when they're, secondly, \u201cin pain.\u201d It's a unique kind of prayer. There's lots of prayer language in the Bible: there's praise; there's thanksgiving; there's supplication. Lament is a unique prayer form.\r\n\r\n\u201cA prayer, in pain, that leads\u201d: Lament is processed language; it's not meant just to be something that we remain in. This is important\u2014because, sometimes, when you've had a traumatic issue in your life, it's not just a thing; it becomes the thing\u2014and when it's the thing, it can become your only thing; and it becomes your identity. Lament is how pain becomes something that's happened to you. \r\n\r\nBut it's not everything\u2014because \u201clament leads you to trust\u201d\u2014trust in what? Trust in God's goodness; reaffirmation that you know that He's good; trust in His ability to make sense of everything in His timing. It's the psalmist, in Psalm 13, who says, \u201cI will sing; I will rejoice, because You have dealt bountifully with me.\u201d If somebody only commiserates in their sorrows, and they never get to trust, they actually haven't lamented. To lament is this process where we make our way to trust. \r\n\r\nAnd most laments have four key elements of some kind. It's music; it's poetry\u2014so we have to be careful that we don't make it overly linear\u2014but there's turn; complain; ask; and trust\u2014turn; complain; ask; and trust. The idea is: \r\n\r\nI turn to God in my sorrow; I refuse to give Him the silent treatment\u2014which is really tempting when you're in pain\u2014just stop praying or stop praying about a particular subject. \r\n\r\nI complain: I lay out my problems, my challenges in clear and stark terms. I'm not a complainer; I'm laying out a complaint: \u201cThis is what's wrong.\u201d They give it in an official sort of legal way\u2014it's not grumbling\u2014it's saying to God, \u201cI don't know how this fits with what I know to be true about You.\u201d We live in a broken world.\r\n\r\nDave (00:40:37):\r\n\r\nIs there anger in that or no?\r\n\r\nMark (00:40:39):\r\n\r\nThere could be sinful anger in that; yes. I take the position that it's never right to be sinfully angry with God, where anger\u2014I think, biblically defined, is an emotion designed to address an injustice\u2014I don't think God is ever unjust with me. I do think we can feel frustration; we can feel confusion; we can feel tension. But to be sinfully angry with God is something that should be repented of; because I think sinful anger comes from a place of: \u201cYou did me wrong,\u201d and \u201cHow dare You!\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:41:10):\r\n\r\nThis is when Piper said to me\u2014I was telling John Piper a story of my sister dying\u2014I said, \u201cI was angry; and I told God, \u2018I am angry with You,\u2019\u2014and he said, \u201cWell, that's sin.\u201d It kind of stopped me in my tracks, like, \u201cOh, wait, wait\u201d; you just explained it.\r\n\r\nMark (00:41:26):\r\n\r\nI would agree with him on that. It depends on what you mean by anger. I want to acknowledge though that there are real tensions that people feel, and there are real struggles. Sometimes, that may feel like sinful anger\u2014and it might not be\u2014it might be: \u201cThis is really, really hard.\u201d When the psalmist says in Psalm 77: \u201cI remember God. When I remember God, I moan.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:41:48):\r\n\r\n\u201cI moan\u201d; yeah.\r\n\r\nMark (00:41:49):\r\n\r\nWell, you press that too far, with a wrong attitude, that could be sinful. But at the same time, it acknowledges that there's moments in life that we're like, \u201cGod, seriously, this is really hard.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:41:59):\r\n\r\n\u2014\u201cand I don't understand.\u201d But at the end of my prayer, I was like, \u201cBut I'll trust You; because I know that You are good, God, even though I don't feel it right now.\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (00:42:08):\r\n\r\nThat's exactly where lament leads\u2014turn; complaint\u2014\r\n\r\nAsk\u2014take the promises of Scripture\u2014incorporating them into your life, asking for God's help. \r\n\r\nAnd then, the conclusion is: \u201cTrust\u201d: \u201cGod, I can trust You with these gaps; I can live in this tension of my sorrow. And I know that, somehow, some way; there's a good God behind all of this. Today, I am confused and a little disoriented, but I know who You are.\u201d It's a re-grounding, if you will, of who you are and your experience, in the goodness and grace of God.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:42:42):\r\n\r\nDo you think people\u2014and I know the answer to this\u2014but I feel like, when people are so burdened and in pain emotionally, often, we go hide in something rather than truly lamenting and going to the Father. What areas do you think we hide in? What's an area that you would, apart from Christ?\r\n\r\nMark (00:43:04):\r\n\r\nI think what we do is we give God the silent treatment. We just stop praying entirely or we embrace emotional, or physical, or real escapisms kind of thing, where one of the psalmists says\u2014I think it's Psalm 55\u2014\u201cOh, that I had wings like a dove; I could fly away and be at rest.\u201d This idea of just kind of running away from my problems. We have all sorts of ways that we can try and do that and cope. Or we can get really, really busy. I find this particularly to be true with men: rather than grieving the loss, they just click into: \u201cNo, I'm fine\u201d; and they just try to fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:43:39):\r\n\r\nIs that yours?\r\n\r\nMark (00:43:40):\r\n\r\nFinally, their grief catches up with them.\r\n\r\nDave (00:43:41):\r\n\r\nDon't even talk about me. I had a therapist once\u2014I was going through a thing with our church and succession\u2014and sat down with him for five hours. At the end of sort of drawing my whole life on a board\u2014he didn't know me; but an amazing Christian counselor, whose niche is Christian leaders\u2014he goes, \u201cI don't really do therapy; I just meet with Christian leaders. Here's your homework: \u2018What are you running from?\u2019 You got to answer this question: \u2018What are you running from?\u2019\u201d I look at him; I go, \u201cWhat are you talking about?\u201d He goes, \u201cYou don't see this. You are this, this, this, this. You're running from something.\u201d \r\n\r\nI come home, and tell Ann. She's like, \u201cWhat did he say? What did he say?\u201d \u201cHe said I got to answer this question: \u2018What am I running from?\u201d She's like, \u201cDuh! I've been telling you this forever.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:44:23):\r\n\r\nI didn't say that; I didn't say, \u201cDuh.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:44:24):\r\n\r\nWell, you gave me a look like that, like,\u2014\r\n\r\nMark: \u2014\u201cBless your heart.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:\u201cI've been trying to tell you this forever.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: He felt the \u201cDuh!\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: That was a large part of my life\u2014it was sort of running, even from lamenting about pain, even from family of origin\u2014I'm good at things, so I run to things and accomplish. I'm not going to lament; I'm not going to deal with it; I'll bury it. Horrible way to live life.\r\n\r\nMark (00:44:53):\r\n\r\nYeah, and very common. Part of the reason is grief is scary; it reminds us that we're broken. We would rather ignore that reality, which is one of the reasons why\u2014it's just so interesting to me how we have changed funerals\u2014it's almost as though we're afraid to grieve at funerals. We turn them into celebrations of life. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:45:16):\r\n\r\nWell, we won't even wear black, a lot of times, anymore.\r\n\r\nMark (00:45:19):\r\n\r\nOr the testimonies hardly acknowledge the loss. And even frankly, somebody who's passing away gives the family an edict: \u201cWhatever you do, don't cry at my funeral.\u201d I'm just like, \u201cWhat are we doing?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:45:30):\r\n\r\nI haven't thought through that because seeing that more and more lately and people are like, \u201cWe're celebrating; they're in new life.\u201d But you're right; it doesn't give you a chance to just mourn and grieve.\r\n\r\nMark (00:45:41):\r\n\r\nSo that, when Thanksgiving comes, and there's an empty seat at the table, you're like, \u201cI feel this.\u201d Suddenly, now, we don't have a category that: \u201cYeah, that's actually normal. That's okay; it's okay to acknowledge the loss. It's okay to grieve it; it's okay to be sad.\u201d We're going to be fine; but death is frightening, and sorrow is an early warning that death is still real. Because it's in our world, and because it challenges our sense of autonomy and transcendence, human beings have this tendency to want to either ignore it, or even shush it, kind of keep it under wraps. \r\n\r\nAfter I wrote this book, and after I've done a lot of work on lament, I had a friend whose son eventually died of cancer way, way, way too early. We're in their home with a small group. The dad is just slumped over an ottoman. He's just lamenting, and he's crying out in prayer to God. I have a category for lament; I've written on lament; I can define lament;  I can teach a seminar in lament\u2014and everything within me wanted him to stop\u2014I was uncomfortable; it was frightening! It was just a stunning moment, to be like, \u201cWow, this is not intellectual. This is a visceral reaction to the presence of loss that's in my orbit.\u201d I think that's true for all humans; I think that's true for Christians. I think it's one of the reasons that, at times, we can be really unhelpful to people when they're grieving.\r\n\r\nDave (00:47:14):\r\n\r\nAnd is lament, often, long? Can it be a lament over days, weeks, months?\r\n\r\nMark: \u2014or years. \r\n\r\nDave: You can look at this\u2014turn; complain; ask; trust\u2014you can do that in 15 minutes\u2014and sometimes, we do\u2014but sometimes: \u201cThis is going a while.\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (00:47:31):\r\n\r\nI would compare it maybe to a song\u2014your favorite song\u2014sometimes, you sing it a lot; sometimes, you sing on particular occasions; and sometimes, you sing it for your entire life\u2014it's just always with you\u2014because it captures the essence of a moment. I think it's very individual. I think there are some people where, because of the need of the moment, they are lamenting a particular subject\u2014and that's really enough: once, twice\u2014and they feel like, \u201cI've got some level of spiritual resolution.\u201d \r\n\r\nOther people, because of the circumstances, their progress looks like: turn one day; complain the next; ask the third; trust. And for some people that looks like: \u201cEvery three days, I'm going to lament,\u201d and \u201cI'm going to probably have to do that for years,\u201d\u2014because either the problem isn't contained\u2014death of a loved one's hard; but at least, there's a funeral; there's a grave; you've got to recover and find your new normal\u2014but when it's a divorce, when it's a wayward child, when it's other things that are family-related\u2014the sorrow is continual. You need to learn how to lament regularly so that you can even be present for your kids; or emotionally whole, so you can still do life with them, despite your deep levels of disappointment and sorrow.\r\n\r\nDave (00:48:59):\r\n\r\nI just thought of a bonus question.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:49:01):\r\n\r\nOh, good.\r\n\r\nDave (00:49:02):\r\n\r\nYeah, we're going to save for our financial partners.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:49:04):\r\n\r\nGive us a tease: \u201cWhat is it?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:49:05):\r\n\r\nThe tease will be, based on what you just said. I'll tell them what we're going to ask: you can become a financial partner\u2014you can start giving to us monthly, and you can stay on for this question we'll save for later\u2014but the question's going to be: \u201cWhen your spouse is lamenting, and you feel like it's too long, how do you respond?\u201d \r\n\r\nMark: Oh man, I can't wait. \r\n\r\nDave: Save that for later.\r\n\r\nMark (00:49:28):\r\n\r\nI can't wait to talk about that.\r\n\r\nDave (00:49:29):\r\n\r\nI think that happens; and you're like,\u2014\r\n\r\nMark: Totally.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:49:32):\r\n\r\nAnn: It happened with us.\r\n\r\nDave (00:49:34):\r\n\r\n\u201cI\u2019m not sure what to do.\u201d \r\n\r\nMark: Totally.\r\n\r\nDave: Yeah, we'll save it.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:49:35):\r\n\r\nWell, I wanted you to get into that a little bit\u2014because you're right\u2014when a person dies, you know that, in time, it will become better. But when you're having kids who are maybe prodigals; or your marriage just seems to be getting worse, how do we lament and live our life? That's not an easy thing. What's that look like?\r\n\r\nMark (00:49:59):\r\n\r\nIt's really challenging; I'm not going to be all chipper that it's tough. The difference is, though, that you learn that the language of lament is the means by which God gives you grace to live one more day.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:50:17):\r\n\r\nOh, that's good.\r\n\r\nMark (00:50:17):\r\n\r\nPart of it is lament helps us to know how to live when our time horizon has to be shorter. One of my favorite passages is in Matthew when Jesus said, \u201cDon't worry about tomorrow, because tomorrow has enough trouble of its own.\u201d That sounds like a really depressing verse: \u201cDon't worry about tomorrow; it's going to be really bad.\u201d But what He means is that every day has a providential limit of trouble in a proportionate reference to how much grace that you have. I have grace for my troubles today; I don't have grace for my troubles for tomorrow. If I want to try and borrow trouble, well then, I can borrow trouble with no grace. Good luck with that.\r\n\r\nThe key to living through longer seasons of trial, and suffering, and hardship is shortening our time horizon\u2014realize: \u201cWhat do I have to do today?\u201d I say, \u201cI got to follow Jesus today,\u201d\u2014I only have grace for what's in front of me. For the sorrows that I feel, I need to lament them\u2014trust God; go to bed; wake up, and believe that the Bible is true\u2014that His mercies are new every morning. \r\n\r\nBy the way, Jeremiah said that; he pronounced that over a situation that everything about the scenario he was seeing would've screamed: \u201cGod has abandoned His people!\u201d I talk about this in the book: I was at a Christian conference center and saw this painting on the wall. It was a Thomas Kincaid kind-of-looking-thing with a little cottage\u2014looked like an English cottage\u2014this beautiful river and flowers, literally, like an Airbnb in Colorado.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:51:49):\r\n\r\nLights in the window.\r\n\r\nMark (00:51:50):\r\n\r\nOh, yeah! All the soft colors. Underneath it, it says: \u201cThe steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; His mercies are new every morning.\u201d I just looked at that; and I was like, \u201cSo somebody thought that verse goes with that picture; that verse does not go with that picture. If you want\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:52:06):\r\n\r\nWhat would your picture look like?\r\n\r\nMark (00:52:07):\r\n\r\n\u201cIt would look like an F4 tornado just wiped out a city.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: It's true!\r\n\r\nMark: That's what that verse is about. It's about, even though it looks like God has ditched us\u2014He's abandoned us; the temple is torn down; all of the people of Israel have been taken captive to Babylon\u2014in that moment, Jeremiah has the courage\/the faith to say, \u201cThe steadfast of the Lord never ceases; His mercies are new every\u201d\u2014he's planting a flag\u2014\"His mercies are new every morning.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:52:37):\r\n\r\nAnd it wasn't denial; because sometimes, when people say those kinds of things, they're just living in denial. They're not willing to bring the two together.\r\n\r\nMark (00:52:45):\r\n\r\nYeah; I think Christians live either in denial or despair. Denial is they think that real Christians never talk about their sorrows. They come to church; and people ask them, \u201cHow are you doing?\u201d And they're like, \u201cFine; just trusting in the Lord\u201d; and behind the scenes, they're really struggling. They think that the best kind of Christians actually only talk about all of the good. They come to church, and all the songs we're singing are about triumph and victory; they're in the pews or seats, going, \u201cThat's not me. Do I belong here?\u201d So then, they can tip into despair, which is: \u201cIf I have these questions, I might not be a Christian.\u201d\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n(00:53:25)\r\n\r\nI think a lot of Christians tend towards those two ditches. \r\n\r\nNow, somebody would say, \u201cWait a minute, Mark. Doesn't the Bible say \u2018rejoice always\u2019?\u201d Yes, it does; it's true. You should rejoice. My question is: \u201cHow do you get there?\u201d\u2014and that's what lament does. Lament is the language that moves us from being in a really hard place, with really tough questions, to get us to the point that we could say, \u201cI will sing; I will rejoice, because God has dealt bountifully with me,\u201d\u2014Psalm 13. But before that, he [the psalmist] said, \u201cHow long will the Lord\/will You forget me forever?\u201d That's what lament does: it's a bridge between the poles of: \u201cI believe God is good, but my life is really hard.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:54:04):\r\n\r\nWould it be interesting\u2014I've never had this thought\u2014if, as we walk in church, there was a little scale or something above everybody's head that measured how much pain they're in right now, and that could be revealed\u2014we could see it\u2014I think we'd be shocked at the amount of pain in the room. We used to have a sign in our green room that said: \u201cNever underestimate the pain in the room.\u201d When we were walking onto the stage, we're like, \u201cYou got to remember: \u2018I may be great today. There's a lot of people in this congregation\u2014maybe, the majority\u2014who are not great today. Don't go up there and just say, \u201cHey!\u201d\u2019\u201d That's part of it\u2014you got to be: \u201cHey, God is good,\u201d\u2014but you also have to discern there's a lot of pain that you don't see, but it's real and it's happening. We need that; we need that little counter.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:54:51):\r\n\r\nMark, let me ask you\u2014because when my sister died, I'd go to worship; I couldn't even sing; I just sobbed the entire time\u2014I wanted to sing, and it felt good to be there; but I couldn't even get the words out. It's almost like worship opens your soul, and you just feel it. Was I grieving or was I lamenting? And what's the difference?\r\n\r\nMark (00:55:13):\r\n\r\nWell, what do you think?\r\n\r\nDave: I like it.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:55:16):\r\n\r\nI think it was both.\r\n\r\nMark (00:55:17):\r\n\r\nTell me why.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:55:18):\r\n\r\nI think I was grieving out of sadness and loss. The lamenting part: I think I was doing that along the way of telling God: \u201cThis is where I am.\u201d Lamenting is expressing, out loud, \u201cI'm suffering; this is hard.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:55:41):\r\n\r\nIt felt unjust.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:55:42):\r\n\r\nYeah, but what's grief?\r\n\r\nMark (00:55:46):\r\n\r\nWell, grief is just the normal human\u2014 \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014emotional sadness.\r\n\r\nMark (00:55:49):\r\n\r\n\u2014emotion in response to pain. Grief certainly is part of lament. \r\n\r\nWhat happens is that lament takes grief\u2014and think of it like giving it tracks\u2014which is why I asked you the question: \u201cWhat do you think it was?\u201d Because sometimes, you just don't know. What lament does is it takes grief, and it moves it along. If, in that worship service, you are sad and filled with emotion, that is hard and challenging. You're hearing singing; and you're like, \u201cThis is true.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:56:25):\r\n\r\nYeah, that's what I felt: \u201cThis is true.\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (00:56:27):\r\n\r\n\u201cThis is true.\u201d What just happened there? The connection between your grief and believing what's true\u2014that is lament right there\u2014that process is what lament is designed to do: \u201cI'm really sad. I remember God; I moan; and yet, Your footprints were unseen.\u201d That's what\u2014so lament holds those two things; they don\u2019t conflict with one another\u2014it's that those two things just exist in tension.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:56:57):\r\n\r\nBut I like that it gives tracks so they can move along.\r\n\r\nMark (00:57:03):\r\n\r\nIt would be helpful\u2014and might have been even helpful for you in that moment\u2014imagine if you knew, in that moment: \u201cMy grief is normal. My experience here is part of what it means to be a human and what it means to be a Christian. As I sing, God is moving me along. I'm actually making progress right now.\u201d Because so many people, when they're in a worship service like that, their emotions\u2014and they can't sing\u2014they feel like a failure: \u201cIf I was a real Christian, I could just sing,\u201d or \u201c\u2026I could smile more,\u201d or\u2014because they have this idea that\u2019s what happens with real Christians as they experience pain\u2014they live in a way that is disconnected from their pain. \r\n\r\nTo be a Christian means that you're in pain; and yet, you trust.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:57:44):\r\n\r\nHonestly, it was so hard for me to understand the purpose. It seemed ridiculous [her sister\u2019s death]: \u201cThis is the dumbest thing, Lord; I don't understand.\u201d It was good for me to be reminded: I needed the Word, and I needed worship. \r\n\r\nI felt like I couldn't pray sometimes. Is that normal? I've heard a lot of people say, \u201cI can't even pray.\u201d That made me feel guilty. But there is a part of me\u2014I can't even\u2014that's why church was important, just to hear it and to be reminded of: \u201cThis is who He is.\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (00:58:16):\r\n\r\nTo answer your first question about hardly even praying\u2014Psalm 77\u2014\u201cIn the day of my trouble, I seek the Lord; but my soul refuses to be comforted.\u201d His prayers aren't working. \r\n\r\nLet me ask you, if I can: \u201cIt felt like it was unfair,\u201d or \u201c\u2026felt like it was stupid,\u201d I think is the word you used, which I get. Did you come to a point of accepting or resolving that tension?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:58:50):\r\n\r\nNo.\r\n\r\nMark (00:58:51):\r\n\r\n\u201cIt just is what it is.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:58:53):\r\n\r\nWhen you look at it, she's 44 with 4 little boy; 4 boys. To me, that seemed like: \u201cWhat would the point be?\u201d My resolution was: \u201cGod is good, and I can trust Him; and I don't need to know the answer,\u201d\u2014that was it\u2014\"I'm going to trust Him because I know He has an answer; I know He knows all things.\u201d\r\n\r\nI think that, maybe, this happened to you. I had to be in the Word constantly to be reminded of the truth of how good He was. If I wasn't in the Word, I think I could have drifted for sure.\r\n\r\nMark (00:59:28):\r\n\r\nYeah, your emotions certainly would take you that way. And the evidence in front of you might even take you that way; because objectively, \u201cHow could that be good?\u201d And yet, if you were to stand\u2014imagine in front of me is the cross; and behind me, is Resurrection Sunday, empty tomb\u2014if I have my back to the resurrection; and all I see is the cross, my conclusion is: \u201cThis is unfair,\u201d \u201cThis is unjust,\u201d \u201cThis is a waste.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:59:58):\r\n\r\n\u201cIt's stupid.\u201d \r\n\r\nMark (01:00:00):\r\n\r\n\u201cIt\u2019s stupid,\u201d\u2014100 percent. And so part of it is just realizing\u2014in time, if we turn and we understand the rest of the story\u2014we'll see, \u201cOh, that's what's going on.\u201d That's to live in that gap or that tension though\u2014\u201cWhat do we do in that season?\u201d\u2014that's the language of lament.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:00:20):\r\n\r\nI think the older we get, the more you see: \u201cShould we mourn the death of someone in Christ? We know it's paradise, what they're experiencing eternally with the Father. That is good news. It's just for us here, who are suffering in the midst of it; that's the hard part, not for them.\u201d I usually hear people\u2014my sister didn't complain as she was dying\u2014she was my best friend. She didn't want to leave her kids, but she knew what was to come. I struggled more than she did.\r\n\r\nMark (01:00:54):\r\n\r\nAnd there's just something objectively true at every funeral\u2014which is: \u201cDeath is outrageous,\u201d\u2014the separation of family; the loss of relationship. It's a regular reminder: \u201cSomething is seriously wrong with the world.\u201d Every death is a reminder of that. I think part of it is that we live in our everyday human experience, and we become a little inoculated to the problem and the presence of sin in the world. Sometimes, it takes a death to remind us. Solomon put it this way: \u201cIt's better to go to the house of mourning than the house of feasting.\u201d \r\n\r\nWhy did he say that?\u2014\"I said that because you learn more at funerals than you do at parties; you listen to what's said.\u201d I think it's David Brooks who talks about eulogy virtues versus resume virtues. Eulogy virtues are the things that are said about you at your funeral; resume virtues are the things that you build your career upon. He says, basically: \u201cBe sure that you're living by eulogy virtues, not just resume virtues,\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (01:01:55):\r\n\r\nThat's good.\r\n\r\nMark (01:01:55):\r\n\r\n\u2014which I think is really an insightful caution about: \u201cHow we can live our lives in an incorrect sort of focused way.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:02:04):\r\n\r\nI love this quote in your book from Nicholas\u2014how do you say it?\u2014Wolterstorff? \r\n\r\nMark (01:02:09):\r\n\r\nWolterstorff, yeah.\r\n\r\nDave (01:02:10):\r\n\r\n\u201cI shall look at the world through tears. Perhaps I shall see things that, dry-eyed, I could not see.\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (01:02:17):\r\n\r\nMan, oh, man. He uses eyes as a metaphor. I use ears: \u201cOnce you've heard lament, it's amazing how you hear it in so many other spaces.\u201d Or once you see it or hear it in one space, you begin to realize: \u201cOh, it's there,\u201d and \u201cIt's there,\u201d and \u201cIt's there,\u201d and \u201cIt's there.\u201d You realize that there's a reason that Jesus was called a Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief: here's the God-man in the world, and He is seeing the effects of the departure from the glory of God. He stands at Lazarus's grave. He knows He is going to raise him from the dead, but He's weeping. Why is He weeping? Because it didn't have to be this way. The sorrow of Lazarus's family\u2014and Jesus is acquainted with our grief\u2014and yet, He\u2019s about ready to call him out of the grave. There's something fundamentally wrong with the world. Christians know the answer: it's sin. The broken world we live in cries out for redemption.\r\n\r\nAnn: That\u2019s so good!\r\n\r\nDave (01:03:19):\r\n\r\nHow would you coach or counsel a listener, or somebody watching, who\u2019s been following us this whole time, and saying, \u201cI don't think I've ever lamented. I'm definitely in grief; I'm definitely sad. I'm not sure I've ever lamented. How do I start?\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (01:03:37):\r\n\r\nI'd start by looking at Psalm 13; read it out loud\u2014it's short; it's clear\u2014the transition is there. \r\n\r\nAnd then, after you see it and read it, imagine you translate that in your own version. Imagine the Wilson translation or the Vroegopean translation: \u201cWhat does that sound like?\u201d Like what you were doing with your guitar: you were taking Psalm 77, with music and the whole thing, you were interpreting it in your own life and experience. \r\n\r\nThe third step would be to take the framework of\u2014turn; complaint; ask; and trust\u2014and just try it. Talk to God; turn to Him in your grief. Lay out what's wrong. Ask for Him to help, and trust Him. And then, start doing that on a more regular basis to see how it is that the Lord uses this prayer language to give you grace. I think folks will be surprised that just baby steps in this way results in an overflow of mercy and grace that God sends our way.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:04:37):\r\n\r\nCan you give us an example of that? Do it when your daughter died\u2014when you suffered and you were grieving\u2014give us an example of what that could look like and what you did. \r\n\r\nMark (01:04:53):\r\n\r\nIn that moment, I am calling out to God, and acknowledging: \u201cGod, I\u2019m really hurting, and I'm really scared. I am worried that my wife is never going to stop crying. How are we going to make it? How am I going to be a pastor?\u201d and \u201cWhy?\u2014a nine-pound little baby doesn't deserve this, and there's no answer. I'm going to be left for the rest of my life with an unexplained stillbirth, which means no ability to prevent it in the future. It's not a problem I can solve; I don't what the problem was. But I know You're good. I know I can trust You. You've proven yourself over, and over, and over in my life that You're trustworthy. I'm going to live in this tension of a life that's harder than what I wanted, and a situation that feels more overwhelming than what I think I can bear. I'm just going to believe that, somehow, some way, You're going to help me. Therefore, I'm going to sing my way through the storm. I'm going to trust that You're going to help me; You're not going to leave me. I'm still hurting, so come.\u201d That would be how I would interpret \r\n\r\nPsalm 13.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:06:13):\r\n\r\nAnd would you have to do that again and again?\r\n\r\nMark (01:06:15):\r\n\r\nAgain, and again, and again, and again, and again. Even as you asked me to do this\u2014it's been 22 years since my daughter's passing\u2014and it doesn't take a lot for the emotion to pop right up.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:06:29):\r\n\r\nIt doesn't take me a lot to go with you in it.\r\n\r\nMark (01:06:31):\r\n\r\nYeah. Here's another thing\u2014I'm not a grief counselor\u2014I don't have training in that. Let me just tell you, experientially, what I've observed, as a pastor, helping a lot of people in grief. Sometimes, people think that grief recovery looks like: \u201cI get over it, and I never grieve again.\u201d They think\/they wish that was the case: \u201cOh, it just hasn't been my experience, but the experience of others.\u201d \r\n\r\nInstead, what it looks like is the length of time between really strong, and almost frightening, emotions; it gets further and further apart. Two years [pass] \u2014Sylvia's birthday comes up; or we're hanging up Christmas ornaments, [one\u2019s] got her name on it\u2014those emotions come rushing back, like out of nowhere. Or I was doing a talk on lament last weekend; and somebody asked me a question\u2014I forget what it was about\u2014I started to tell a little part of the story. I had to stop because I actually got very emotional. I just paused, and I was like, \u201cLook, I don't even know where this is coming from. It's not even within my control; but apparently, I'm still a person who's grieving at some level.\u201d \r\n\r\nJohn Piper described it this way: \u201cIt's like an amputation. You heal, but you're never the same.\u201d I think that's a good way to think about it: \u201cI'm okay, but this will always be true. I'm able to move on and still glorify the Lord. And not everything in my life is defined by these sorrows and losses, but it doesn't take a lot to open that subject back up.\u201d There's always a good amount of appropriate sorrow; it doesn't mean I haven't healed\u2014I think I have healed\u2014but it means that that moment counted. I'm a normal human being who is still processing that.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:08:19):\r\n\r\nI'm thinking about your kids: \u201cHow old are your kids now?\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (01:08:24):\r\n\r\nOur twins are 28; another son who's 25; and our daughter, Savannah's, 19.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:08:30):\r\n\r\nHow have you taught this to them? I think one of the things I love about you, Mark, is you're not afraid to show emotion, pain, and sorrow. What's that look like for us, as parents? How can we help our kids with this?\r\n\r\nMark (01:08:44):\r\n\r\nThat's a really good question. I don't know the full answer to that; because I think that sort of depends on the person, their personality, the event that's happened, the age of their kids, even kind of the wiring of their kids. The risk would be is I get a simplistic and prescriptive answer. \r\n\r\nBut let me try, at one level, just to set the framework. I think that it's important for parents to appropriately allow their kids into their grief. I say, \u201cappropriately\u201d; because there are boundaries. There are levels of transparency that parents shouldn't go to because it would be damaging to kids.\r\n\r\n(01:09:32)\r\n\r\nBut there's another extreme, which is that kids don't know that fighting through sorrow and battling it is actually the success, not never having it. I think welcoming them in\u2014sharing the struggles, as appropriate\u2014teaching them how to grieve. Hopefully, the kids are old enough that they've got a theology already built into their system, because of what they've heard and seen, depending, again, on the age. It's hard to teach a child a theology of suffering in suffering. That theology needs to be built in before; so then, it can click in\u2014and again, age appropriate\u2014et cetera, et cetera. \r\n\r\nOne of the things I'm thankful for in the last five years has been some resources for kids about lament\u2014even a great book\/a kids' book\u2014called The Moon Is Always Round.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:10:27):\r\n\r\nWe just interviewed\u2014\r\n\r\nMark (01:10:29):\r\n\r\n\u2014Jon Gibson; yeah.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:10:30):\r\n\r\nWe had Jonathan call in his wife; she was here, talking about the book.\r\n\r\nMark (01:10:35):\r\n\r\nThat's right.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:10:35):\r\n\r\nBut then, we had Jonathan read the book. \r\n\r\nMark (01:10:38):\r\n\r\nI can't imagine.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:10:38):\r\n\r\nIt's so good!\r\n\r\nMark (01:10:40):\r\n\r\nThat idea\u2014that model\u2014when I saw the book, I was like, \u201cOh, praise God. Thank You, Jesus, that somebody's doing this kind of work.\u201d And there\u2019s a new book out\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (01:10:47):\r\n\r\nBecause they had lost their stillborn child. \r\n\r\nMark (01:10:49):\r\n\r\nYes; exactly. \r\n\r\nI think one of the staff folks at TGC [The Gospel Coalition]\u2014I think it's maybe Betsy Childs Howard\u2014has a children's book on lament, specifically. Just super thankful for people entering into this space; because kids need to know that this situation in life that we're in is real, and it's consequential. And then, I think also finding ways to exercise the lament muscle in minor moments of disappointment instead of just major moments.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:11:18):\r\n\r\nYeah, that's good.\r\n\r\nMark (01:11:18):\r\n\r\nSo that, when you feel mistreated at school, or when you're disappointed about something that you've lost, or some childhood grief, I think it's important to teach kids: \u201cHow do we respond to that? How do we use this biblical language?\u201d If you're only applying lament in the most dark and difficult scenarios of life, it feels really intense. It's hard to apply something if you're trying to do it for the first time. So those are a few ways.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:11:50):\r\n\r\nI think, too, to demonstrate, even in prayer, before our kids. When our kids were little, I can remember driving them to school. They were elementary\u2014young elementary\u2014but allowing them to see my disappointment or sadness, like, \u201cLord, I feel sad today,\u201d\u2014but to end the prayer\u2014\u201cBut I trust You because I know You're good.\u201d For little ears to hear those things, I think that's teaching our kids we can be real and honest with God: \u201cMom says that she loves Him, and she trusts Him, and that He's good.\u201d Those things lock into our kids, knowing: \u201cI can trust God too. I may not know Him like Mom does, but Mom and Dad think that He's good and He's trustworthy. I can also be really honest with Him.\u201d I can say, in Michigan, like, \u201cLord, how many days is it going to be cloudy? What's happening?\u201d To see: \u201cThis is a conversation with a God we love,\u2014\r\n\r\nMark (01:12:44):\r\n\r\nAbsolutely.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:12:45):\r\n\r\n\u2014who's with us.\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (01:12:46):\r\n\r\nWe need our kids to have a fully-orbed understanding of the Christian life. As long as the laments are balanced with opportunities for thanksgiving and praise, I think that\u2019s great.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:13:00):\r\n\r\nThat's good.\r\n\r\nMark (01:13:01):\r\n\r\nThe trouble is that so many of us, we kind of have an inkling or we're so chipper, we don't acknowledge that things are hard or we're so naturally given to despair that the only time we're praying out loud is when the sky is falling, so to speak. You know what I mean? And so that's where, and kids learn: \u201cOh, real Christians are just really sad all the time.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (01:13:21):\r\n\r\nOr \u201cThere's never sadness. Mom's always up, and everything's great.\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (01:13:26):\r\n\r\nYeah. So June, July, and August does happen in Michigan; right?\r\n\r\nAnn (01:13:29):\r\n\r\nI'll say that: \u201cLord, look at this tree that You created in the fall.\u201d We're celebrating all of it.\r\n\r\nMark (01:13:35):\r\n\r\nI just think it needs to be balanced and appropriately calibrated to understand the Christian life is highs and lows. \r\n\r\nAnn (01:13:47):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s just like marriage.\r\n\r\nMark (01:13:48):\r\n\r\nYep. What Eugene Peterson said: \u201cIt's a long obedience in the same direction. We're just going to take one step in highs, and lows, and difficulties. We're just going to keep marching on, trusting the Lord.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:13:58):\r\n\r\nYeah. It's interesting. I was not excited about this interview. I like you, Mark; but I'm like, \u201cWe're going to talk about lament for several sessions?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (01:14:10):\r\n\r\nYou don't like to stay in the box. \r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nMark (01:14:11):\r\n\r\nI have a hard time believing that, because you got up and wrote a song about it.\r\n\r\nDave (01:14:13):\r\n\r\nI didn't write it; David did. But let me ask you this: \u201cIs there anything we didn't hit that you're like, \u2018Oh, gee, we missed this.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (01:14:24):\r\n\r\nYou didn't miss anything. There's just one\u2014we've talked a lot about Psalms\u2014I just want to mention Lamentations. Lamentations is the longest lament in the whole Bible.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:14:34):\r\n\r\nAnd we don't always like to read Lamentations.\r\n\r\nMark (01:14:36):\r\n\r\nWe do not.\r\n\r\nDave (01:14:37):\r\n\r\n\u201cI'm not teaching that on a sermon.\u201d And you did a whole series on it; you walked your congregation through it.\r\n\r\nMark (01:14:42):\r\n\r\nI did. Our staff were a little bit like, \u201cWe're going to spend how many weeks on this?\u201d But it actually proved to be one of the most consequential sermons in the life of our congregation.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:14:52):\r\n\r\nReally?\r\n\r\nMark (01:14:52):\r\n\r\nBecause it demonstrated two things: one, there is a boatload of people in the church who Lamentations was like, \u201cThat's my song.\u201d And [secondly], it also demonstrated we can talk about grief or lament for six weeks and be okay. We actually have more resilience in this space; we're more afraid of it than what we even want to acknowledge. \r\n\r\nLamentations speaks about the destruction of Jerusalem, and it's like a mountain. Chapters 1 and 2 are just rehearsing what's wrong. Chapter 3 is kind of the summit. The pinnacle of the summit is: \u201cThe steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; His mercies never come to an end.\u201d I love how the New Living translation renders it; it says, \u201cI will never forget this awful time; and yet, I will dare to hope.\u201d The idea is: when hoping is often a dare; it's a big risk to hope in God when you have a really hard time.\u201d\r\n\r\nWhat I love about Lamentations is, after that sort of signature moment\u2014where he just plants a flag: \u201cGod is faithful, and God is just,\u201d\u2014there's two more chapters. There's Chapter 4, where things are not still great;  Chapter 5, things are still not great. And the whole lament ends with this: \u201cRestore us, O Lord, to Yourself that we may be restored. Renew us as the days of old unless You have utterly rejected us and You remain exceedingly angry with us.\u201d That\u2019s how it ends.\r\n\r\n(01:16:28)\r\n\r\nNow, why do I love that? There's a whole host of theological things\u2014we can talk about that\u2014\"Why do I love that?\u201d It's because most of our lives look more like that than they do like a Hallmark movie.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:16:38):\r\n\r\nYes!\r\n\r\nMark (01:16:39):\r\n\r\nIt's like you get up, off your knees, praying\u2014you get out of your couch, after you've poured out your heart to the Lord\u2014and you're like: \u201cWell, I don't know if my kids are coming back,\u201d \u201cI don't know how my sister's kids are going to fare.\u201d The reason that's important is because some people can think that lament ties a bow on it all. It's a package; and lament and lamentation shows us: \u201cNo, it actually opens up a new vista, with a lot of risk, but a lot of confidence. But knowing that, as CS Lewis talked about in The Chronicles of Narnia, we go further up and further in; further up, further in; further up, further in. The more you understand and expand on this, the better questions you have; the more unresolved life actually is. And yet, you still have a great confidence that, someday, some way, God's going to make it all clear. Until then, you rest in the fact that: The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:17:40):\r\n\r\nWow. Well, I'm thinking everything you've said\u2014and even Lamentations there\u2014\"If my mom could think about that,\u201d\u2014if she would've been able to understand lament\u2014my dad leaves; my brother dies; I'm seven, he's five\u2014like six, seven weeks, later,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (01:18:03):\r\n\r\n\u2014after the divorce.\r\n\r\nDave (01:18:04):\r\n\r\nAnd my sister, who was in high school, told us, just last year; she goes, \u201cYeah, you don't know this; you were a little boy. But I came home from high school, and the pastor's walking out of our house. He says to me, \u201cYour brother just died.\u201d Mom never talked about it ever again; it was never brought up. It was like, \u201cThat's what you do. You just\u2014\u2018Okay, bad thing happened; we move on.\u2019\u201d To listen to this, I'm like, \u201cWow.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnd so what was her escape?\u2014alcohol; that's where she ran. And it would probably have not had to go that way if she had been able to understand that. And me, as a little boy, like, \u201cThis is hard.\u201d You can cry\u2014and crying; that\u2019s human\u2014I love that quote: \u201cTo lament is Christian.\u201d We were never taught that. This is such a gift to so many people to understand that.\r\n\r\nMark (01:18:51):\r\n\r\nAnd isn't God kind that, even though you didn't know that language, even though your mom didn't, I bet if we were to trace back how informative those moments in your life have been to actually where you are today. So even when we don't know how to lament, God still is kind; He's still sovereign. This is our language, though, to help us in the in-between times.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:19:13):\r\n\r\nAnd the bow happens when we are with Jesus and eternity; that\u2019s the bow.\r\n\r\nMark (01:19:18):\r\n\r\nExactly; that's when the tears get wiped away, and our faith becomes sight. Until then, we just got to keep lamenting until He comes. \r\n\r\nDave: Thank you. \r\n\r\nMark: You\u2019re welcome. \r\n\r\nDave: It's been great.\r\n\r\nMark: It\u2019s been great to talk with you guys today.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:19:29):\r\n\r\nHey, thanks for watching. If you'd like this episode,\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (01:19:32):\r\n\r\nYou better like it.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:19:33):\r\n\r\n\u2014just hit that \u201cLike\u201d button.\r\n\r\nDave (01:19:34):\r\n\r\nAnd we'd like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the \u201cSubscribe\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\ncan't say the word, \u201csubscribe\u201d\u2014hit the \u201cSubscribe\u201d button. I don't think I can say this \r\n\r\nword! \r\n\r\nAnn: I can subscribe. \r\n\r\nDave: Look at that! You say it so easily. \u201cSubscribe\u201d; there he goes!\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife.com                                 \r\n\r\n\n"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-317196.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-317196.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__video-wrap video{opacity: 1;}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-is-root-container .uagb-block-e11dbe9f{max-width: 100%;width: 100%;}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-is-root-container.alignfull.uagb-block-e11dbe9f 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you struggling to reconcile a good God with a hard life? Hosts Dave and Ann Wilson sit down with Mark Vroegop, author of \"Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy\" to explore the vital biblical practice of lament. Mark reveals how lament, though prevalent in Scripture (making up one-third of the Psalms!), is often missing from modern&hellip;","meta_box":{"show_notes":"\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.markvroegop.com\/\">Learn more about Mark at his website<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.markvroegop.com\/books\/dark-clouds-deep-mercy\">Purchase Mark's book, \"Dark Clouds, Deep Grace\" online<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/waiting-isnt-a-waste-the-surprising-comfort-of-trusting-god-in-the-uncertainties-of-life\/\">Purchase Mark's book \"Waiting Isn't a Waste\" at the FamilyLife online store<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/group-studies\/\">See our shop for 25% off Small Group Studies<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.familylife.com\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-08-14.pdf","transcript_content":"\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nHow to Reconcile a Good God with a Hard Life\r\n\r\nGuest: Mark Vroegop\r\n\r\nRelease Date: August 14, 2025\r\n\r\nDave (00:00:00):\r\n\r\nHow can a powerful and loving God allow evil?\r\n\r\nMark (00:00:02):\r\n\r\nSome people think that, in order for Christianity to be real, those two things have to reconcile.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:00:06):\r\n\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nMark (00:00:07):\r\n\r\nThe answer for that person is: \u201cGod is good, and life is hard. In the Bible, they don't reconcile; they just are. The Psalms of lament show us those two things actually coexist in the Christian faith.\r\n\r\nDave (00:00:25):\r\n\r\nLet's talk about a topic we all need to talk about\u2014and we all need to do\u2014but a lot of us don't understand. That's how I would introduce\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:00:35):\r\n\r\nIs that your little tease?\r\n\r\nDave (00:00:36):\r\n\r\n\u2014to this topic. No, I mean we got Mark Vroegop back with us, talking about something that you think is really important for the Christian community to understand. Right now, everybody's like, \u201cWhat is this?\u201d I'm going to throw it to you: \u201cWhat is it, Mark?\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (00:00:53):\r\n\r\nWe're here to talk about lament\u2014the language that God's people have historically used and is all over the Bible\u2014of how you pray and talk to God when life falls apart.\r\n\r\nDave (00:01:06):\r\n\r\nThere you go. We'll see you next week.\r\n\r\nMark (00:01:08):\r\n\r\nThere we go.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:01:10):\r\n\r\nAnd that is a new word. I feel like people haven't been using that word until recently, but we've all done it; we've all experienced it. But why do you think it's important now? Because you're writing about it, you've experienced it.\r\n\r\nMark (00:01:24):\r\n\r\nI have. For most of us, we don't set out on a academic discovery of the language of lament. For most of us, lament finds us\u2014we have an event, a situation, a pain, a tragedy\u2014and when a Christian's walking through that, they're trying to figure out: \u201cHow do I grieve and still cling to what I believe? How do I cry, but how do I hope?\u201d The prayer form that we end up experiencing is lament. For most of us, this category explains what's happened in the past or explains what we've been trying to do; that was my experience. After writing Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy, and talking with so many grieving people, the overwhelmingly consistent comment that I hear from people is: \u201cYour book just explained the last couple years of my life.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:02:18):\r\n\r\nWow.\r\n\r\nMark (00:02:19):\r\n\r\nSo lament usually finds us because we're not familiar with this language\u2014and yet, it's a grace\u2014it's all over the Bible. Think of this: one out of every three Psalms are laments. God intended for us to have this language to talk to Him when life really gets hard. The challenge is that, for many of us, we haven't heard about it; we don't know it. But when it's explained, we go, \u201cOh, that's actually what's been going on.\u201d And in doing so, we find some amazing grace.\r\n\r\nDave (00:02:46):\r\n\r\nIt's interesting\u2014I watch you all over the internet\u2014we do our homework and research. You made that comment about a third of the Psalms are lament. A lot of our worship singing in church are the Psalms. Have you ever heard any lament-singing worship songs? It's very rare, isn't it?\r\n\r\nMark (00:03:06):\r\n\r\nThey're certainly out there; but unfortunately, the percentage of laments in the Bible do not reflect the percentage of songs that we sing. I don't want to say one out of every three songs has to be lament in its orientation. We also don't hear lament-oriented prayers; and as a result, we're very unfamiliar with this language. Instead, for most of us in a Western American version of Christianity, we think that the standard of what it means to be a Christian is always be positive and encouraging. In fact, there's radio stations that that's their monicor [enthusiastic voice]: \u201cPositive and encouraging,\u201d which, okay, I get it. \r\n\r\nDave (00:03:45):\r\n\r\nHey, you just did a radio voice too.\r\n\r\nAnn: That sounded really good.\r\n\r\nMark (00:03:47):\r\n\r\nOkay, I can do\u2014I'll do another one\u2014ready? [Deeping voice] \u201cWelcome to Dark and Dreary.\u201d Who's going to listen to that radio station? \r\n\r\nDave: \u201cDark Clouds, Deep Mercy.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:03:57):\r\n\r\nWell , it's funny\u2014because I remember a businessman; he was in his 60s. He said, \u201cI don't even like David\u2014everything I read about him\u2014he seems like such a whiner. And when you read the Psalms, he's just always lamenting.\u201d \r\n\r\nDave: Hey, Mark, I got to tell you\u2014\r\n\r\nMark: You\u2019re [Dave] getting out your guitar right now?\r\n\r\nDave (00:04:12):\r\n\r\nHere we go. \r\n\r\nMark: Okay. For those who can't see this, you\u2019re just going to hear it.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:04:17):\r\n\r\nThis is why you need to watch this.\r\n\r\nDave (00:04:19):\r\n\r\nI am not kidding. I was watching you preach somewhere\u2014it might've been at your church; I don't know\u2014you made that comment that there aren't any worship songs that are sort of based like the Psalms. I thought, \u201cI'm just going to go\u2014and you were referencing Psalm 77\u2014literally, an hour ago, I opened up Psalm 77. I'm in our bedroom, and Ann's like, \u201cYou're not going to do that on there.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Mark's face is like, \u201cWhat is happening?!\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (00:04:45):\r\n\r\nI really don't know what's happening now. \r\n\r\nDave: They can always edit it out. \r\n\r\nMark: I'm actually going to pull my camera out and take a picture of this while you do this. \r\n\r\nDave: You can do whatever you want to do. \r\n\r\nAnn: Has this never happened for an interview? \r\n\r\nMark: No, this has never happened, probably, in the history of mankind; so this is a moment right here. So yeah, that's awesome. \r\n\r\nDave (00:05:02):\r\n\r\nHere\u2019s the thing: I don't even know where it's going to go.\r\n\r\nMark (00:05:02):\r\n\r\nOkay, those are the best songs.\r\n\r\nDave (00:05:06):\r\n\r\nBut I literally opened Psalm 77; I thought [singing]: \u201cWhen I remember God, I moan.\u201d That's a lament.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cI moan.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: [Singing] \u201cWhen I meditate, my spirit faints.\u201d [Musical interlude] \u201cHas the steadfast love forever ceased?\u201d  See, I'm probably getting too happy so far.\r\n\r\nMark (00:05:39):\r\n\r\nNo, you're not. You're doing a great job, actually. \r\n\r\nDave (00:05:41):\r\n\r\n[Singing] \u201cAre His promises ended for all time?\u201d And then, you can just feel him; he's like: \u201cHas God forgotten to be gracious?\u201d Has He, in anger, shut up His compassion? Then, I said, \u2018I will appeal to the years of the right hand of the Most High. I will remember the deeds of the Lord. Yes, I will remember You are the One\u2014 \r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, this feels a little more up now. \r\n\r\nDave: Well, he's getting\u2014\r\n\r\nMark: Well, he turned.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes, yes.\r\n\r\nDave: [Singing]  \u201cI will ponder on Your work and meditate on Your mighty deeds. Your way, O God, is holy; what god is great like our God?\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Wow!\r\n\r\nDave: Anyway, that's what came to me this morning. I'm like, \u201cThere aren't songs written like that.\u201d I don't know if anybody's singing that at church; but what do you think, Mark?\u201d You're dumbfounded over there. He's speechless; look at that!\r\n\r\nMark (00:06:58):\r\n\r\nYeah, I'm actually pretty emotional; that's really amazing.\r\n\r\nDave (00:07:01):\r\n\r\nWow.\r\n\r\nMark (00:07:02):\r\n\r\n[Emotion in voice] I just wish a lot more people would do that; seriously, those words are so important.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:07:14):\r\n\r\nMark, will you read it? Read it; at least, the beginning.\r\n\r\nDave (00:07:18):\r\n\r\nThat is not the response I thought it was going to get.\r\n\r\nMark (00:07:23):\r\n\r\nWell, it's really\u2014it's actually\u2014it's the vision of why I wrote Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy is to have that happen. I couldn't do what you just did. I thought you were joking, but that was legit; that was an amazing song. And yet, it's so important; because we are very unfamiliar with the kind of words that you've just sung. \r\n\r\nHere's what Psalm 77. It's 20 verses; you want me to do them all, or what do you want me to do?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:07:57):\r\n\r\nNo, do the beginning; do the ones that you resonate with.\r\n\r\nMark (00:08:01):\r\n\r\n\u201cI cry aloud to God, aloud to God; and He will hear me. In the day of my trouble, I seek the Lord. In the night, my hand is stretched out, without wearying; but my soul refuses to be comforted. When I remember God, I moan; and when I meditate, my spirit faints. You hold my eyelids open; I am so troubled I cannot speak. I consider the days of old, the years long ago. I said, \u2018Let me remember my song in the night. Let me meditate in my heart.\u2019 And then, my spirit made a diligent search.\u201d\r\n\r\nHere's six rhetorical questions that would freak most people out if anybody prayed them in a small group: \u201c\u2019Will the Lord spurn forever?\u2019 \u2018Will He never again be favorable?\u2019 \u2018Has His steadfast love forever ceased?\u2019 \u2018Are His promises at an end for all times?\u2019 \u2018Has God forgotten to be gracious?\u2019 \u2018Has He, in anger, shut up His compassion?\u201d Then, here's the turn\u2014every lament has a pivot\u2014\u201cThen I said, \u2018I will appeal to this, to the years of the right hand of the Most High. I will remember the deeds of the Lord.\u201d He's taking those rhetorical questions\u2014that he knows aren't true, but they feel true\u2014and that's the thing with laments: there are things in life that feel true that you know aren't true. The question is: \u201cWhat do you do with them?\u201d; lament is the answer: \u201cYou pray them; you talk to God about them; you sing them.\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cI'll remember the work of the Lord. I'll remember Your wonders of old. I will ponder Your work and meditate on Your mighty deeds. Your way, O God, is holy. What god is great like our God? You are the God who works wonders. You've made known Your might among the people. You have redeemed Your people, the children of Jacob and Joseph.\u201d \r\n\r\nThis is my favorite part: \u201c When the water saw You, O God, when the water saw You, they were afraid. Indeed, the deep trembled; the clouds poured out water; the skies gave forth thunder; Your arrows flashed on every side; the crash of Your thunder was in the whirlwind; Your lightnings lighted up the world; the earth trembled and shook.\u201d Here's the money passage: \u201cYour way was through the sea; Your path through the great waters. Yet, your footprints were unseen. You led Your people, like a flock, by the hand of Moses and Aaron.\u201d \r\n\r\n(00:10:23)\r\n\r\nThe reason why that concluding part is so important is because, in the Old Testament, the signature redemptive event was the exodus. That's what he's talking about there at the end. He takes his heart back\u2014he takes questions like: \u201cHas God forgotten to be gracious?\u201d Has He shut up His compassion?\u201d\u2014He takes all of that mess, and he brings it back to the most foundational truth that he knows, which is: \u201cGod delivered us; we're His people. He led us through the Red Sea.\u201d \r\n\r\nIn the New Testament, that moment is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Laments eventually lead us to the bedrock of our faith, which is: \u201cThe Man of sorrows can handle our questions; He can handle our pain. He's the one that prayed on the cross: \u2018My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?\u2019\u201d\u2014Psalm 22; prayed lament. At the end of the day, our hope is that Jesus bought the right to make it right. Lament is the language that helps us get to that point that we could again say, \u201cThat's true. I'm really struggling; and sometimes, I have doubts; but this is true.\u201d Laments, as I define it in the book, are prayers and pain that lead to trust. \r\n\r\nOh, that there would be more people who would write songs like that. I think there are a boatload of people in our churches who need to know that: A) they could sing like that, as far as saying those words; and B) know that this is actually a pathway that leads to hope. It's not a cul-de-sac of sorrows, where we just are always stuck in our grieving.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:11:36):\r\n\r\nThat's a really good point.\r\n\r\nMark (00:11:37):\r\n\r\nThis is a conduit that leads us to mercy and grace. That's why that's a really remarkable moment to have that kind of song out of Psalm 77. Think of this: that for generations, this was the songbook. That\u2019s what they did; they put to music the very words of God. Think of that: one out of every three songs that are sung have that kind of tone\u2014despair, difficulty\u2014and yet, so full of hope.\r\n\r\nDave (00:12:07):\r\n\r\nLiterally, when I heard you say that in your sermon, that's why I grabbed my guitar off the wall, and said, \u201cWhy don't we sing these?\u201d I get it; they can be a little depressing. But they also\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: But we feel depressed. \r\n\r\nDave: \u2014bring life when you\/when the song goes to the turn. You're reminded and man, man, what you just said in the last three minutes is a clip we have to put on YouTube. That was like: \u201cBoom!\u201d That was as well-said as I\u2019ve ever heard it. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:12:35):\r\n\r\nI sat there and just cried; because all of us\u2014every single listener\u2014is experiencing pain at some point in their lives. If it's not right now, it will be in the future\u2014one out of three Psalms\u2014probably one third of our life, if not more, is really hard.\r\n\r\nMark (00:12:52):\r\n\r\nI don't mean to be cute when I say this, but I do think it's helped to reset people's expectations. We talked about yesterday: if one out of every three Psalms are songs of lament, you might think that one out of every three days of your life you're going to have sorrows or difficulties. I think part of the reason why lament is not a language that a lot of Christians today understand\u2014at least, in the spaces in which we live and operate\u2014is because they have a wrong view of what the successful Christian life looks like.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:13:20):\r\n\r\n\u2014especially, in America.\r\n\r\nMark (00:13:22):\r\n\r\nYou can go globally and find believers who understand lament as an intuitive language. You can look at American history: if you were to find the genre that expresses lament in American music history, look no further than African-American spirituals.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:13:37):\r\n\r\nThat's what I was going to say.\r\n\r\nMark (00:13:37):\r\n\r\nSo when people are in a hard place, and they feel like there's no hope in this world, this is the language that they use. It's so incredibly life-giving, both as individuals and for an entire corporate gathering of God's people.\r\n\r\nDave (00:13:53):\r\n\r\nWhen you said that, I was thinking: \u201cWhen I came to Christ in college\u2014I don't think anybody told me this\u2014I just perceived, \u2018Now, life will be easy and good; it'll be awesome.\u2019 If my mentor had said, \u2018Hey, by the way, you just signed up for, every third day, get ready for a hard struggle that God's going to prove Himself to you,\u2019 I'd be like, \u2018Wait, wait, wait; I'm not signing up for that!\u2019 But that's what I signed up for.\u201d You think Jesus will just make it all smooth; and it's going to be easy\u2014the prosperity-type gospel\u2014and it's like, \u201cYeah, that's not what you signed up for. You signed up for a real struggle with Jesus in the boat.\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (00:14:33):\r\n\r\nPart of the reason that I'm passionate about this subject is\u2014not just to help people who are grieving or to explain a biblical category\u2014but one out of every three days being difficult isn't just a Christian experience; that's a human experience. It seems to me that Christians ought to be the best interpreters of pain, sorrow, and difficulties. This is our language; and we know the story\u2014the redemptive arc of creation, fall, redemption, restoration\u2014we know the story. We know that there's coming a day when we won't sing laments anymore. I don't know what songs we're going to sing in heaven. It would be pretty cool\u2014if I'm Keith and Kristen Getty\u2014and we're singing In Christ Alone in heaven. Imagine your song: it made it into the top 50 with the angels, right? \r\n\r\nDave: I don't think so! \r\n\r\nMark: \u201cHey, there's this guy who wrote this song; we're going to sing it together\u201d; imagine that. \r\n\r\nBut there's a whole genre of songs we won't sing anymore, because our faith will be sight; our sorrows will be no more. But in the meantime, this is our language. This is our moment to say, \u201cLook, the Christian faith can handle death, sorrow, and the most difficult questions. In fact, this language is a means to help us in our, long and sometimes difficult, pilgrimage.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:15:42):\r\n\r\nTake us back to when lament became a new language for\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014dark clouds. \r\n\r\nAnn: Take us to the dark clouds.\r\n\r\nMark (00:15:48):\r\n\r\nMan, your song just tripped me. I need to kind of regroup my emotions here. It's funny how, when something's so passionate to you, it kind of opens up a file; and you're like, \u201cWow, that's really, really impactful.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:16:01):\r\n\r\nMusic does that too, doesn't it?\r\n\r\nMark (00:16:02):\r\n\r\nI does. That's the other thing: it's just even processing this moment\u2014I've taught \r\n\r\nPsalm 77 how many times?\u2014but hearing it in a song is just really powerful.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:16:11):\r\n\r\nLet me say too\u2014it was so funny\u2014I was spending time with God this morning. I go through the one-year Bible every year. Listen to what today's Psalm was\u201469\/Psalm 69\u2014listen to this; I thought this is so appropriate for\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (00:16:26):\r\n\r\nYou want me to sing this one?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:16:28):\r\n\r\nThis is so appropriate for our discussion today. This is a Psalm of David: \u201cSave me, O God, for the waters have come up to my neck. I sink in deep mire, where there is no foothold. I have come into deep waters, and the flood sweeps over me. I am weary with my crying out. My throat is parched; my eyes grow dim with waiting for my God. More in number, than the hairs of my head, are those who hate me without cause. Mighty are those who would destroy me, those who attack me with lies. What I did not steal, must I now restore? O God, you know my folly, the wrongs I have done and not hidden from You. Let not those who hope in You be put to shame through me. O Lord, God of hosts, let not those who seek You be brought to dishonor through me.\u201d \r\n\r\nThis is like real stuff! It makes me wonder: \u201cHow often are those my prayers?\u2014\u2018These people hate me, God. Maybe, it's because I'm just messed up,\u2019\u201d\u2014I've prayed those prayers.\r\n\r\nDave (00:17:35):\r\n\r\nThere's part of me\u2014Mark, I'd love to hear you talk about that\u2014that runs away from that\/avoids it. I don't want to feel sad; I don't want to complain\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:17:47):\r\n\r\n\u2014like the guy who said David's a whiner.\r\n\r\nDave (00:17:50):\r\n\r\n\u2014should I? Am I allowed to?\u2014yeah; the guy said David's a whiner. So often, part of my\u2014I think my family of origin\u2019s brokenness, with two alcoholic parents, and divorce, and adultery, and all that, as I was a little boy\u2014I think part of me, from that pain for a lot of my life, I just buried it. I didn't talk about it, didn't even acknowledge it: \u201cI'm good; I'm an athlete.\u201d It's like, \u201cNo; you got to step into the, like you said, dark clouds and process it. What better way to process it than with God?\u201d\r\n\r\nBut as I became a Christian\u2014this is where we're going today\u2014I thought, \u201cI can't remember the process with Him. Nobody complains to God; nobody yells at God.\u201d I hadn't read the Bible that well, so I didn't know it was all over the Bible. I just thought, \u201cThat's one place you can't do that. Maybe, you can do it alone; or maybe, with your spouse or a really good friend; but never with God, because He's going to turn His face away from you.\u201d I think a lot of believers feel that way\u2014that they cannot lament\u2014that it's not spiritual to lament.\r\n\r\nMark (00:18:51):\r\n\r\nAbsolutely; yeah. There's so much for us to unpack in that. Earlier, you asked me about how I came to this; should I go there? And then, I can answer your question.\r\n\r\nDave (00:19:02):\r\n\r\nYeah, start there.\r\n\r\nMark (00:19:03):\r\n\r\nI think that context is a bit instructive. We have twin boys. My wife carried our twins to 39-and-a-half weeks. When they were born, they were six pounds, seven ounces; six pounds, eleven ounces.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:19:17):\r\n\r\nThat's big for twins.\r\n\r\nMark (00:19:18):\r\n\r\nMy wife's like five foot; three inches. So then, we had another son; she carried him full term\u2014beautiful pregnancy\u2014no problems. For us, pregnancy equals \u201cEasy.\u201d And then, our third pregnancy: a few days before delivery, my wife woke me up, and said, \u201cSomething doesn't feel right. Baby hasn't moved, I don't think; and I'm going to jump in the shower.\u201d \r\n\r\nThere's a bigger backstory; it felt like the Lord had been preparing me for suffering of some kind. I began doing some study and some reading on suffering, at a deeper level. She got in the shower; I dropped to my knees, and said, \u201cLord, please not this.\u201d I just had this sense like, \u201cOh, my goodness.\u201d I was just afraid, and I was anxious. \r\n\r\nWell, sure enough, we get to the doctor's office. They put that little\u2014I don't know what it's called\u2014but that thing that you hear the baby's heartbeat. Longest three minutes of my life as the doctor is just searching. I'm like, \u201cGod, please, please, please; let me just hear that sound,\u201d\u2014that [making static sounds]. There was just deafening silence. We go into the ultrasound room. We see our baby in the womb; and he puts it over her heart, and he's like, \u201cI'm sorry I tell you this, but her heart has stopped. Your child has died.\u201d It just rocked my world. \r\n\r\nSo then\u2014I\u2019ll fast forward through some things\u2014my wife has to give birth to a deceased child; she has to go through all the things of labor. And then, we have a couple years of multiple miscarriages, even one where we thought we were pregnant; numbers were going up. We go into the room to see the heartbeat; this is supposed to be celebration day only to have\u2014in the same room, with the same doctor, in the same chair\u2014him say, \u201cI'm sorry, but you have a blighted ovum. You've caught a miscarriage before it's happened.\u201d In the book, I talk about that's when my wife and I went to our car in the parking lot. I asked her if she could pray; and she said, \u201cI'll try.\u201d She said, God, I know You're not mean, but it feels like it today.\u201d What is that?\u2014that's a lament. \r\n\r\nAnd then, we finally got pregnant again. It was the longest nine months of our life\u2014because I lost the husband card, to say, \u201cHoney, I'm sure nothing's going to happen\u201d; because it had\u2014that nine months was just a battle to believe and trust. And today, by God's grace, we have a 19-year-old daughter, Savannah, who was born after our stillbirth daughter, stillborn daughter, Sylvia. \r\n\r\nAs a pastor, I'm still preaching and teaching; I'm marrying and burying\u2014all the things. I'm trying to put together what I believe about God: \u201cHe is sovereign,\u201d \u201cHe is good,\u201d \u201cHe is holy,\u201d \u201cHe has really good purposes,\u201d and \u201cMy life is really hard, and I don't know if I can do this. What if my wife's never happy again? What if this is the last story?\u2014it\u2019s death and a grave.\u201d I'm in between these two worlds. And then, I find that Christians are really unintentionally unhelpful. They're trying to paper over our pain or our questions with: \u201cWell, God can trust you with this\u201d; I'm like: \u201cOkay; well, it doesn't feel like I am trustworthy,\u201d or \u201cMaybe, more people will come to Christ,\u201d \u201cWell, that'd be great; except I'd rather have a living daughter, to be honest.\u201d People were not helpful in kind, but ill-informed, ways. \r\n\r\nI started just to wrestle with this: \u201cHow do you live between the poles of a really hard life but trusting in God's providence and His sovereignty? How do you live with two of those things?\u201d I found that, on most Christian experiences, it's either\/or\u2014either life is all bad; God's dealt me an unfair deck\u2014or it's we trust in His sovereignty, and we ignore how painful it is. \r\n\r\nDave (00:23:02):\r\n\r\nYeah, that\u2019s what I did. \r\n\r\nMark (00:23:06):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s what most\/many Christians do.\r\n\r\nI started teaching on it\u2014exploring this a little bit\u2014and then, I was like, \u201cOh, wait a minute. What's been going on in my life, all these years, is lament; that's what it is.\u201d I didn't have a category for it at the time; I was just trying to survive, trying to live out my theology, while in pain. I started teaching on some of the darker Psalms; I taught through the book of Lamentations. \r\n\r\nThis book came out of real world conversations with hurting people who, after service, were like, \u201cHey, is there anything else on this? I need to explore this further.\u201d Eventually, I got so tired of saying, \u201cI really don't know that there is.\u201d That's when I decided: \u201cI need to put this into some kind of published form.\u201d The title, Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy comes from the juxtaposition in the book of Lamentations\u2014Chapter 2: the Lord has set us under a dark cloud; and Lamentations 3: \u201cThe steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; His mercies are new every morning,\u201d\u2014I think the Christian life is lived in the tension between those two realities: dark clouds often; always deep mercy; and there's grace for the in-between time; it's the language of lament.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:24:13):\r\n\r\nI'm just teary about the whole conversation. I know so many people who have suffered so much. I'm just imagining the couple that we know, that their baby was just still-born. Here's the thing that happens: I've seen so many people walk away from God as a result.\r\n\r\nMark (00:24:29):\r\n\r\nOh, absolutely.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:24:30):\r\n\r\nI'm not sure how to encourage them. What would you say to that? There are so many that: \u201cIf this is who God is, I'm out.\u201d Is it because we haven't learned to lament? What is that, and how can we encourage them or come alongside them?\r\n\r\nMark (00:24:48):\r\n\r\nSo two things on that. Number one: I think you've had Garrett Kell on your program here. Garrett told me and our friends that he had an intern, who made an incredible observation: \u201cHe connected some dots for me.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:25:00):\r\n\r\nAn intern? Alright!\r\n\r\nMark (00:25:01):\r\n\r\nAn intern, yes.\r\n\r\nThey were reading this book; and he said, \u201cI think some people deconstruct their faith because they don't know how to lament.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:25:08):\r\n\r\nOh, that's so true; that is insightful. \r\n\r\nAnn: Me too! \r\n\r\nMark (00:25:11):\r\n\r\nOne of the hardest things is: if you've had pain, but you don't know what to do with it, you begin to think that Christianity isn't legit. I was like, \u201cWow, that's actually really, really helpful.\u201d I think pain creates a tension point of: \u201cHow do I live with the fact of what I believe and my experiences don\u2019t seem to match?\u201d The answer for that person is: \u201cGod is good, and life is hard. Those two things actually coexist in the Christian faith.\u201d \r\n\r\nSome people think that, in order for Christianity to be real, those two things have to reconcile; but in the Bible, they don't reconcile; they just are. The Psalms of lament show us that: in the exact same Psalm, the psalmist can say: \u201cHow long, O Lord,\u201d\u2014Psalm 13\u2014\"have You forgotten me? Will You forget me forever?\u201d And then four verses later, say, \u201cBut I have trusted in Your mercy; I will sing.\u201d It is the fact that Good Friday and Resurrection Sunday are both part of the Christian faith. Part of it is helping people understand that: if you think that Christianity is only resurrection, then you miss that the cross was necessary. If you think Christianity's only the cross, you miss the resurrection hope. You have to have both, and the Bible has words and language that describes that. \r\n\r\nFor your friend, I would say, \u201cListen to these words in the Bible: \u2018Save me, for the waters have come up to my neck.\u2019 The Bible actually, empathetically, understands the pain that you're walking through\u2014in a variety\/kinds of brokenness in the world\u2014and pain tests what it is that we really believe about God. Some people think that lament is to be faithless. It's actually one of the most faith-filled things that you can do; it's one of the most theologically-informed things to do. I think this was Todd Billings, who said this: \u201cIt's precisely out of our theology that we offer complaints to the Lord; because if we believed that He wasn't good, or we believed He wasn't sovereign, then why lament? It's just the normal thing of life: \u2018Bad stuff happens; get over it. Live free; die\u2014 just party\u2014whatever; because life is filled with no connecting dots.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nBut if the Psalmist believes that God is good, and he believes that He's sovereign, then the world in which he lives doesn't fit with his knowledge of who God is. That's precisely why the Psalmist takes the complaints to God, and says to Him, \u201cThis is hard; and yet, I know you're good. But these don't mesh; they don't reconcile.\u201d I think that vision of Christianity is really important; because some people think that, once you come to Christ, you just have all the abundant life. That is not the story: by much suffering and tribulation we enter the kingdom.\r\n\r\nDave (00:28:17):\r\n\r\nI had a woman come up to me at my son's ministry\u2014what?\u2014two months ago, after the service I had preached for my son, that Sunday night. I don't even remember what I preached about. She just came up, and said, \u201cI do not believe that God will ever allow suffering and pain. I have so much suffering and pain in my life, and that's not what the Bible says. That is not\u2014and I need out\u2014I need answers.\u201d \r\n\r\nI should have been compassionate and tender\u2014and I don't know what her suffering and pain was\u2014I just looked at her, and said, \u201cThat is not at all what the Bible says. That is not the Bible. Where have you heard that?\u201d \u201cI've heard that at the other churches I go to.\u201d I go, \u201cThey are lying to you.\u201d I should have been nice; I had heard her say this to so many people; I'm like, \u201cI am going to tell her the straight truth that is not in Scripture. Lament, pain, suffering is part of life; and part of the Christian life in navigating that.\u201d She just looked at me, like, \u201cOkay, I don't want your theology\u201d; and she walked away. I'm like, \u201cOkay; I just told her the truth.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:29:26):\r\n\r\nAnd I had already told her many times;\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014many times. \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014because she's saying, \u201cI was promised that, when I give my life to Jesus, I will have wealth; I will have a great job; I will have an abundance of friendship; and I would not be suffering like I am, right now, in depression.\u201d  And I said, \u201cBut if you read the Scriptures,\u201d\u2014you have to be in the Scriptures\u2014\"to see that all the heroes of the Bible felt all of those hard things of suffering; and yet, God was with them; and He's with you.\u201d But man, when she had that image of: \u201cI should be wealthy, successful\u2026\u201d\u2014phew!\r\n\r\nDave (00:30:01):\r\n\r\nAnd that's sort of the God we manufacture, isn't it?\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:30:05):\r\n\r\n\u2014the genie in the bottle, maybe.\r\n\r\nDave (00:30:06):\r\n\r\n\u2014in the church or outside the church. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:30:08):\r\n\r\nYou can\u2019t see\u2014if you're watching this on YouTube; you can just look at Mark's face, saying, \u201cMmmm.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:30:14):\r\n\r\nI remember\u2014I'm sure you're familiar with Lee Strobel's book, The Case for Christ. But then, The Case for Faith was\u2014I don't remember if it\u2019s his six or eight biggest questions\u2014and the number-one question that people wrestle with\u2014he said\u2014and they walk away from the faith, is: \u201cHow can a powerful and loving God allow evil? I can't reconcile those; I'm out.\u201d He even started the book with some famous theologian, alongside I think Billy Graham; and he [the theologian] walked away. That's what you're saying: that number-one question is answered in Scripture.\r\n\r\nMark (00:30:47):\r\n\r\nIt is. \r\n\r\nDave (00:30:47):\r\n\r\nIt really is.\r\n\r\nMark (00:30:48):\r\n\r\nAt least, it's answered in the sense that there are things that God intends to be left in tension. We just have to realize that we're not the master of the story. Part of our reason for wanting the reconciliation of those is we want to step into the judge's seat and evaluate: \u201cYeah, that's fair,\u201d \u201cYeah, that's good; that makes sense to me.\u201d This is the problem with Job. Job is in a tough place; he's losing everything. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:31:20):\r\n\r\nCan you imagine?!\r\n\r\nMark (00:31:21):\r\n\r\nI cannot. If I'm God, and Job is lamenting to me, I would say, \u201cOkay, look; this isn't about you. I'm sorry, this is really hard. There's actually a contest behind the scenes\u2014it's between me and Satan\u2014and you're stuck in the middle. You're actually the most righteous guy I got. I'm proving something through you. Hang in there; you got this,\u201d\u2014that's what I would do. \r\n\r\nWell, God doesn't do that; He doesn't tell him anything about the behind the scenes. Instead, what does He do? He says, \u201cHey, Job, where were you when I hung the stars in the space? Have you played with Leviathan in the sea?\u201d He basically goes through a series of instructive questions to help Job realize\u2014this is really important\u2014that the \u201cWho?\u201d question in our suffering is so much more satisfying than the \u201cWhy?\u201d question.\r\n\r\nDave: What do you mean?\r\n\r\nMark: Meaning: we want resolution; we want answers. And God says, \u201cThe answer is: \u2018I'm God; I'm sovereign.\u2019\u201d It just depends on how we think about ourselves in the narrative. So many of us think that we're 30 years old; when really, we're 3-year-old kids, talking to our parents, going: \u201cWhy do I have to go to bed?\u201d or \u201cWhy is this happening?\u201d or \u201cWhy won't You let me do this?\u201d Eventually, parents run out of rational arguments for a 3-year-old or a 7-year-old; and where do they eventually revert to? They say, \u201cI'm your mom,\u201d or \u201c\u2026dad. You just have to trust me.\u201d \r\n\r\nWe forget that we're not the parent in the story; we're the child. We're not the judge; we are somebody who is human and fallen. It's all going to be plain; it's all going to be evident\u2014God's going to make it clear; we're going to see the grand plan\u2014and when we see it, maybe in the new heavens and the new earth, we'll say, \u201cYeah, that's the best plan.\u201d But right now, we get the opportunity to live in the tension of experiencing our humanity while we live underneath the umbrella of God's sovereignty.\r\n\r\nDave (00:33:20):\r\n\r\nI have a good buddy who played quarterback for the Lions, was an amazing man of God. When he was our quarterback, we baptized 27 people largely because of Jon and Jenny's marriage; it was amazing. I'll never forget\u2014Jon is pretty bold in his faith; big evangelist\u2014Jon Kitna. \r\n\r\nAfter a game that he got pulled in the fourth quarter, he's doing the press conference after the game\u2014he says this\u2014they say, \u201cHey, you feel like it was wrong for Coach to pull you in the fourth quarter?\u201d He looks at this room of reporters, and says, \u201cI don't think it was wrong at all. You know what I deserved?\u201d\u2014Oh, no! They used the word,  \u201cdeserved\u201d; \u201cDo you think you deserved to be pulled?\u201d\u2014he goes\/he looked at them, and goes, \u201cYou know what I deserve? I deserve hell. I deserve hell because of my sin. That's what I deserve.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:05):\r\n\r\nI forgot he did that!\r\n\r\nDave (00:34:05):\r\n\r\nThe room was like, \u201cWhat?!\u201d He goes, \u201cCome on; seriously, if Coach wants to make that call, he makes that call. If you want to know what we deserve, we deserve the pit of hell.\u201d We're all sitting; he just thought, \u201cI'm going to be an evangelist here.\u201d Well, it didn't go over real well; but it made the papers.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:21):\r\n\r\nWell, let me go back to what you said about Job; because some listeners caught that: \u201cWait a minute. So this is just some test between God and Satan, and Job's the one who has to suffer? What kind of God would allow that?!\u201d It's like a little, \u201cOoh!\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (00:34:34):\r\n\r\nWell, a God whose glory and goodness is so amazing that those things\u2014including human beings, and our hardships and difficulty that end up giving Him glory\u2014actually, it's the best thing in the world for those people and for the creation. The problem is\u2014again, who are we in the narrative?\u2014 the child doesn't understand the value of what's behind Mom and Dad's decision.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:34:56):\r\n\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nMark (00:34:56):\r\n\r\nAnd so the ability to trust God in the most difficult moments in life comes from an understanding that God, not only is trustworthy, but that His grace is amazing; and He knows better than I do. There's a plan here somewhere. Just because I can't see it doesn't mean that it's not good or it's not real. \r\n\r\nSo many of us\u2014again, we think: \u201cProve it! Prove that this is worth it,\u201d \u201cProve that this is fair,\u201d \u201cProve that this makes sense,\u201d\u2014God doesn\u2019t have to prove anything to me. The reality is: I'm the problem, not Him. My sin and my separation from Him is what's caused my own shortcomings in the world and my sinful responses. When you understand the beauty of God's grace, it allows you to see suffering and hardship in light of the bringing of what it is that God's going to provide to help us both love Him and follow Him even better.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:35:56):\r\n\r\nThat's good.\r\n\r\nMark (00:35:56):\r\n\r\nI mean, that's the whole argument of Romans 8: \u201cAll things work together for good to make us more conformed to the image of Christ.\u201d If you take that verse, and you remove the image of Christ out of the verse, it just sounds like all things work together for good in a way that makes me happy, wealthy, and wise. It shapes me into the likeness of Christ; and the question is whether or not I actually value that.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:36:19):\r\n\r\nI remember our friend, Jamie Winship, once said, \u201cGod doesn't answer our \u201cWhy?\u201d questions; but He will answer: \u201cWhat do You want me to know through this situation?\u201d I thought, \u201cOh, so many of us have those \u2018Why?\u2019 questions. We usually don't get them answered. A lot of times, we don't; but we are learning, and God's trying to teach us.\r\n\r\nMark (00:36:40):\r\n\r\nIn my own story here, in 2004, I've got a grieving wife, crying kids, trying to be a pastor. Let me be clear: I would much rather have a 21-year-old daughter than a book on this subject; hard stuff. In fact, if I had a choice, I know what I'd choose. I would've never discovered lament would I have not gone after the subject. \r\n\r\nI just think of the number of people today who know my daughter's name\u2014who know the story\u2014who have found healing and grace through talking about the subject of lament. It's so incredibly life-giving, and I'm really grateful I didn't have a choice in the matter. I'm actually thankful that God is sovereign over all those things; because I know what I would've chosen. Someday, some way, God will explain it all; and He'll make sense of it. I think it was William Cooper who said, \u201cJudge not the Lord by feeble sense, but trust Him for His grace. Behind a frowning providence, He hides a smiling face.\u201d That's really, really important, written by a guy who understood the depths of despair, difficulty, and depression.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:37:53):\r\n\r\nWell, I think we need you to walk us through all the things that God taught you; because I know that this book has ministered to so many. What you've gone through has helped people. It's helped all of us learn how to truly lament. So where would we start? If somebody's like, \u201cThis is all me. This is me; I need this,\u201d\u2014get the book, first of all\u2014but walk us through some of the most important things.\r\n\r\nMark (00:38:15):\r\n\r\nWe'll start with the definition. I define lament as: \u201cAa prayer, in pain, that leads to trust.\u201d Every one of those words and phrases are important. \u201cIt's a prayer\u201d\u2014it's Christian language\u2014where I'm talking to God. All human beings cry\u2014it's how we enter the world\u2014humans cry. To cry is human, but to lament is uniquely Christian. \r\n\r\nIt's the language that God's people talk to God when they're, secondly, \u201cin pain.\u201d It's a unique kind of prayer. There's lots of prayer language in the Bible: there's praise; there's thanksgiving; there's supplication. Lament is a unique prayer form.\r\n\r\n\u201cA prayer, in pain, that leads\u201d: Lament is processed language; it's not meant just to be something that we remain in. This is important\u2014because, sometimes, when you've had a traumatic issue in your life, it's not just a thing; it becomes the thing\u2014and when it's the thing, it can become your only thing; and it becomes your identity. Lament is how pain becomes something that's happened to you. \r\n\r\nBut it's not everything\u2014because \u201clament leads you to trust\u201d\u2014trust in what? Trust in God's goodness; reaffirmation that you know that He's good; trust in His ability to make sense of everything in His timing. It's the psalmist, in Psalm 13, who says, \u201cI will sing; I will rejoice, because You have dealt bountifully with me.\u201d If somebody only commiserates in their sorrows, and they never get to trust, they actually haven't lamented. To lament is this process where we make our way to trust. \r\n\r\nAnd most laments have four key elements of some kind. It's music; it's poetry\u2014so we have to be careful that we don't make it overly linear\u2014but there's turn; complain; ask; and trust\u2014turn; complain; ask; and trust. The idea is: \r\n\r\nI turn to God in my sorrow; I refuse to give Him the silent treatment\u2014which is really tempting when you're in pain\u2014just stop praying or stop praying about a particular subject. \r\n\r\nI complain: I lay out my problems, my challenges in clear and stark terms. I'm not a complainer; I'm laying out a complaint: \u201cThis is what's wrong.\u201d They give it in an official sort of legal way\u2014it's not grumbling\u2014it's saying to God, \u201cI don't know how this fits with what I know to be true about You.\u201d We live in a broken world.\r\n\r\nDave (00:40:37):\r\n\r\nIs there anger in that or no?\r\n\r\nMark (00:40:39):\r\n\r\nThere could be sinful anger in that; yes. I take the position that it's never right to be sinfully angry with God, where anger\u2014I think, biblically defined, is an emotion designed to address an injustice\u2014I don't think God is ever unjust with me. I do think we can feel frustration; we can feel confusion; we can feel tension. But to be sinfully angry with God is something that should be repented of; because I think sinful anger comes from a place of: \u201cYou did me wrong,\u201d and \u201cHow dare You!\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:41:10):\r\n\r\nThis is when Piper said to me\u2014I was telling John Piper a story of my sister dying\u2014I said, \u201cI was angry; and I told God, \u2018I am angry with You,\u2019\u2014and he said, \u201cWell, that's sin.\u201d It kind of stopped me in my tracks, like, \u201cOh, wait, wait\u201d; you just explained it.\r\n\r\nMark (00:41:26):\r\n\r\nI would agree with him on that. It depends on what you mean by anger. I want to acknowledge though that there are real tensions that people feel, and there are real struggles. Sometimes, that may feel like sinful anger\u2014and it might not be\u2014it might be: \u201cThis is really, really hard.\u201d When the psalmist says in Psalm 77: \u201cI remember God. When I remember God, I moan.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:41:48):\r\n\r\n\u201cI moan\u201d; yeah.\r\n\r\nMark (00:41:49):\r\n\r\nWell, you press that too far, with a wrong attitude, that could be sinful. But at the same time, it acknowledges that there's moments in life that we're like, \u201cGod, seriously, this is really hard.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:41:59):\r\n\r\n\u2014\u201cand I don't understand.\u201d But at the end of my prayer, I was like, \u201cBut I'll trust You; because I know that You are good, God, even though I don't feel it right now.\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (00:42:08):\r\n\r\nThat's exactly where lament leads\u2014turn; complaint\u2014\r\n\r\nAsk\u2014take the promises of Scripture\u2014incorporating them into your life, asking for God's help. \r\n\r\nAnd then, the conclusion is: \u201cTrust\u201d: \u201cGod, I can trust You with these gaps; I can live in this tension of my sorrow. And I know that, somehow, some way; there's a good God behind all of this. Today, I am confused and a little disoriented, but I know who You are.\u201d It's a re-grounding, if you will, of who you are and your experience, in the goodness and grace of God.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:42:42):\r\n\r\nDo you think people\u2014and I know the answer to this\u2014but I feel like, when people are so burdened and in pain emotionally, often, we go hide in something rather than truly lamenting and going to the Father. What areas do you think we hide in? What's an area that you would, apart from Christ?\r\n\r\nMark (00:43:04):\r\n\r\nI think what we do is we give God the silent treatment. We just stop praying entirely or we embrace emotional, or physical, or real escapisms kind of thing, where one of the psalmists says\u2014I think it's Psalm 55\u2014\u201cOh, that I had wings like a dove; I could fly away and be at rest.\u201d This idea of just kind of running away from my problems. We have all sorts of ways that we can try and do that and cope. Or we can get really, really busy. I find this particularly to be true with men: rather than grieving the loss, they just click into: \u201cNo, I'm fine\u201d; and they just try to fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:43:39):\r\n\r\nIs that yours?\r\n\r\nMark (00:43:40):\r\n\r\nFinally, their grief catches up with them.\r\n\r\nDave (00:43:41):\r\n\r\nDon't even talk about me. I had a therapist once\u2014I was going through a thing with our church and succession\u2014and sat down with him for five hours. At the end of sort of drawing my whole life on a board\u2014he didn't know me; but an amazing Christian counselor, whose niche is Christian leaders\u2014he goes, \u201cI don't really do therapy; I just meet with Christian leaders. Here's your homework: \u2018What are you running from?\u2019 You got to answer this question: \u2018What are you running from?\u2019\u201d I look at him; I go, \u201cWhat are you talking about?\u201d He goes, \u201cYou don't see this. You are this, this, this, this. You're running from something.\u201d \r\n\r\nI come home, and tell Ann. She's like, \u201cWhat did he say? What did he say?\u201d \u201cHe said I got to answer this question: \u2018What am I running from?\u201d She's like, \u201cDuh! I've been telling you this forever.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:44:23):\r\n\r\nI didn't say that; I didn't say, \u201cDuh.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:44:24):\r\n\r\nWell, you gave me a look like that, like,\u2014\r\n\r\nMark: \u2014\u201cBless your heart.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:\u201cI've been trying to tell you this forever.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: He felt the \u201cDuh!\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: That was a large part of my life\u2014it was sort of running, even from lamenting about pain, even from family of origin\u2014I'm good at things, so I run to things and accomplish. I'm not going to lament; I'm not going to deal with it; I'll bury it. Horrible way to live life.\r\n\r\nMark (00:44:53):\r\n\r\nYeah, and very common. Part of the reason is grief is scary; it reminds us that we're broken. We would rather ignore that reality, which is one of the reasons why\u2014it's just so interesting to me how we have changed funerals\u2014it's almost as though we're afraid to grieve at funerals. We turn them into celebrations of life. \r\n\r\nAnn (00:45:16):\r\n\r\nWell, we won't even wear black, a lot of times, anymore.\r\n\r\nMark (00:45:19):\r\n\r\nOr the testimonies hardly acknowledge the loss. And even frankly, somebody who's passing away gives the family an edict: \u201cWhatever you do, don't cry at my funeral.\u201d I'm just like, \u201cWhat are we doing?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:45:30):\r\n\r\nI haven't thought through that because seeing that more and more lately and people are like, \u201cWe're celebrating; they're in new life.\u201d But you're right; it doesn't give you a chance to just mourn and grieve.\r\n\r\nMark (00:45:41):\r\n\r\nSo that, when Thanksgiving comes, and there's an empty seat at the table, you're like, \u201cI feel this.\u201d Suddenly, now, we don't have a category that: \u201cYeah, that's actually normal. That's okay; it's okay to acknowledge the loss. It's okay to grieve it; it's okay to be sad.\u201d We're going to be fine; but death is frightening, and sorrow is an early warning that death is still real. Because it's in our world, and because it challenges our sense of autonomy and transcendence, human beings have this tendency to want to either ignore it, or even shush it, kind of keep it under wraps. \r\n\r\nAfter I wrote this book, and after I've done a lot of work on lament, I had a friend whose son eventually died of cancer way, way, way too early. We're in their home with a small group. The dad is just slumped over an ottoman. He's just lamenting, and he's crying out in prayer to God. I have a category for lament; I've written on lament; I can define lament;  I can teach a seminar in lament\u2014and everything within me wanted him to stop\u2014I was uncomfortable; it was frightening! It was just a stunning moment, to be like, \u201cWow, this is not intellectual. This is a visceral reaction to the presence of loss that's in my orbit.\u201d I think that's true for all humans; I think that's true for Christians. I think it's one of the reasons that, at times, we can be really unhelpful to people when they're grieving.\r\n\r\nDave (00:47:14):\r\n\r\nAnd is lament, often, long? Can it be a lament over days, weeks, months?\r\n\r\nMark: \u2014or years. \r\n\r\nDave: You can look at this\u2014turn; complain; ask; trust\u2014you can do that in 15 minutes\u2014and sometimes, we do\u2014but sometimes: \u201cThis is going a while.\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (00:47:31):\r\n\r\nI would compare it maybe to a song\u2014your favorite song\u2014sometimes, you sing it a lot; sometimes, you sing on particular occasions; and sometimes, you sing it for your entire life\u2014it's just always with you\u2014because it captures the essence of a moment. I think it's very individual. I think there are some people where, because of the need of the moment, they are lamenting a particular subject\u2014and that's really enough: once, twice\u2014and they feel like, \u201cI've got some level of spiritual resolution.\u201d \r\n\r\nOther people, because of the circumstances, their progress looks like: turn one day; complain the next; ask the third; trust. And for some people that looks like: \u201cEvery three days, I'm going to lament,\u201d and \u201cI'm going to probably have to do that for years,\u201d\u2014because either the problem isn't contained\u2014death of a loved one's hard; but at least, there's a funeral; there's a grave; you've got to recover and find your new normal\u2014but when it's a divorce, when it's a wayward child, when it's other things that are family-related\u2014the sorrow is continual. You need to learn how to lament regularly so that you can even be present for your kids; or emotionally whole, so you can still do life with them, despite your deep levels of disappointment and sorrow.\r\n\r\nDave (00:48:59):\r\n\r\nI just thought of a bonus question.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:49:01):\r\n\r\nOh, good.\r\n\r\nDave (00:49:02):\r\n\r\nYeah, we're going to save for our financial partners.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:49:04):\r\n\r\nGive us a tease: \u201cWhat is it?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:49:05):\r\n\r\nThe tease will be, based on what you just said. I'll tell them what we're going to ask: you can become a financial partner\u2014you can start giving to us monthly, and you can stay on for this question we'll save for later\u2014but the question's going to be: \u201cWhen your spouse is lamenting, and you feel like it's too long, how do you respond?\u201d \r\n\r\nMark: Oh man, I can't wait. \r\n\r\nDave: Save that for later.\r\n\r\nMark (00:49:28):\r\n\r\nI can't wait to talk about that.\r\n\r\nDave (00:49:29):\r\n\r\nI think that happens; and you're like,\u2014\r\n\r\nMark: Totally.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:49:32):\r\n\r\nAnn: It happened with us.\r\n\r\nDave (00:49:34):\r\n\r\n\u201cI\u2019m not sure what to do.\u201d \r\n\r\nMark: Totally.\r\n\r\nDave: Yeah, we'll save it.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:49:35):\r\n\r\nWell, I wanted you to get into that a little bit\u2014because you're right\u2014when a person dies, you know that, in time, it will become better. But when you're having kids who are maybe prodigals; or your marriage just seems to be getting worse, how do we lament and live our life? That's not an easy thing. What's that look like?\r\n\r\nMark (00:49:59):\r\n\r\nIt's really challenging; I'm not going to be all chipper that it's tough. The difference is, though, that you learn that the language of lament is the means by which God gives you grace to live one more day.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:50:17):\r\n\r\nOh, that's good.\r\n\r\nMark (00:50:17):\r\n\r\nPart of it is lament helps us to know how to live when our time horizon has to be shorter. One of my favorite passages is in Matthew when Jesus said, \u201cDon't worry about tomorrow, because tomorrow has enough trouble of its own.\u201d That sounds like a really depressing verse: \u201cDon't worry about tomorrow; it's going to be really bad.\u201d But what He means is that every day has a providential limit of trouble in a proportionate reference to how much grace that you have. I have grace for my troubles today; I don't have grace for my troubles for tomorrow. If I want to try and borrow trouble, well then, I can borrow trouble with no grace. Good luck with that.\r\n\r\nThe key to living through longer seasons of trial, and suffering, and hardship is shortening our time horizon\u2014realize: \u201cWhat do I have to do today?\u201d I say, \u201cI got to follow Jesus today,\u201d\u2014I only have grace for what's in front of me. For the sorrows that I feel, I need to lament them\u2014trust God; go to bed; wake up, and believe that the Bible is true\u2014that His mercies are new every morning. \r\n\r\nBy the way, Jeremiah said that; he pronounced that over a situation that everything about the scenario he was seeing would've screamed: \u201cGod has abandoned His people!\u201d I talk about this in the book: I was at a Christian conference center and saw this painting on the wall. It was a Thomas Kincaid kind-of-looking-thing with a little cottage\u2014looked like an English cottage\u2014this beautiful river and flowers, literally, like an Airbnb in Colorado.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:51:49):\r\n\r\nLights in the window.\r\n\r\nMark (00:51:50):\r\n\r\nOh, yeah! All the soft colors. Underneath it, it says: \u201cThe steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; His mercies are new every morning.\u201d I just looked at that; and I was like, \u201cSo somebody thought that verse goes with that picture; that verse does not go with that picture. If you want\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (00:52:06):\r\n\r\nWhat would your picture look like?\r\n\r\nMark (00:52:07):\r\n\r\n\u201cIt would look like an F4 tornado just wiped out a city.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: It's true!\r\n\r\nMark: That's what that verse is about. It's about, even though it looks like God has ditched us\u2014He's abandoned us; the temple is torn down; all of the people of Israel have been taken captive to Babylon\u2014in that moment, Jeremiah has the courage\/the faith to say, \u201cThe steadfast of the Lord never ceases; His mercies are new every\u201d\u2014he's planting a flag\u2014\"His mercies are new every morning.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:52:37):\r\n\r\nAnd it wasn't denial; because sometimes, when people say those kinds of things, they're just living in denial. They're not willing to bring the two together.\r\n\r\nMark (00:52:45):\r\n\r\nYeah; I think Christians live either in denial or despair. Denial is they think that real Christians never talk about their sorrows. They come to church; and people ask them, \u201cHow are you doing?\u201d And they're like, \u201cFine; just trusting in the Lord\u201d; and behind the scenes, they're really struggling. They think that the best kind of Christians actually only talk about all of the good. They come to church, and all the songs we're singing are about triumph and victory; they're in the pews or seats, going, \u201cThat's not me. Do I belong here?\u201d So then, they can tip into despair, which is: \u201cIf I have these questions, I might not be a Christian.\u201d\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n(00:53:25)\r\n\r\nI think a lot of Christians tend towards those two ditches. \r\n\r\nNow, somebody would say, \u201cWait a minute, Mark. Doesn't the Bible say \u2018rejoice always\u2019?\u201d Yes, it does; it's true. You should rejoice. My question is: \u201cHow do you get there?\u201d\u2014and that's what lament does. Lament is the language that moves us from being in a really hard place, with really tough questions, to get us to the point that we could say, \u201cI will sing; I will rejoice, because God has dealt bountifully with me,\u201d\u2014Psalm 13. But before that, he [the psalmist] said, \u201cHow long will the Lord\/will You forget me forever?\u201d That's what lament does: it's a bridge between the poles of: \u201cI believe God is good, but my life is really hard.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:54:04):\r\n\r\nWould it be interesting\u2014I've never had this thought\u2014if, as we walk in church, there was a little scale or something above everybody's head that measured how much pain they're in right now, and that could be revealed\u2014we could see it\u2014I think we'd be shocked at the amount of pain in the room. We used to have a sign in our green room that said: \u201cNever underestimate the pain in the room.\u201d When we were walking onto the stage, we're like, \u201cYou got to remember: \u2018I may be great today. There's a lot of people in this congregation\u2014maybe, the majority\u2014who are not great today. Don't go up there and just say, \u201cHey!\u201d\u2019\u201d That's part of it\u2014you got to be: \u201cHey, God is good,\u201d\u2014but you also have to discern there's a lot of pain that you don't see, but it's real and it's happening. We need that; we need that little counter.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:54:51):\r\n\r\nMark, let me ask you\u2014because when my sister died, I'd go to worship; I couldn't even sing; I just sobbed the entire time\u2014I wanted to sing, and it felt good to be there; but I couldn't even get the words out. It's almost like worship opens your soul, and you just feel it. Was I grieving or was I lamenting? And what's the difference?\r\n\r\nMark (00:55:13):\r\n\r\nWell, what do you think?\r\n\r\nDave: I like it.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:55:16):\r\n\r\nI think it was both.\r\n\r\nMark (00:55:17):\r\n\r\nTell me why.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:55:18):\r\n\r\nI think I was grieving out of sadness and loss. The lamenting part: I think I was doing that along the way of telling God: \u201cThis is where I am.\u201d Lamenting is expressing, out loud, \u201cI'm suffering; this is hard.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (00:55:41):\r\n\r\nIt felt unjust.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:55:42):\r\n\r\nYeah, but what's grief?\r\n\r\nMark (00:55:46):\r\n\r\nWell, grief is just the normal human\u2014 \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014emotional sadness.\r\n\r\nMark (00:55:49):\r\n\r\n\u2014emotion in response to pain. Grief certainly is part of lament. \r\n\r\nWhat happens is that lament takes grief\u2014and think of it like giving it tracks\u2014which is why I asked you the question: \u201cWhat do you think it was?\u201d Because sometimes, you just don't know. What lament does is it takes grief, and it moves it along. If, in that worship service, you are sad and filled with emotion, that is hard and challenging. You're hearing singing; and you're like, \u201cThis is true.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:56:25):\r\n\r\nYeah, that's what I felt: \u201cThis is true.\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (00:56:27):\r\n\r\n\u201cThis is true.\u201d What just happened there? The connection between your grief and believing what's true\u2014that is lament right there\u2014that process is what lament is designed to do: \u201cI'm really sad. I remember God; I moan; and yet, Your footprints were unseen.\u201d That's what\u2014so lament holds those two things; they don\u2019t conflict with one another\u2014it's that those two things just exist in tension.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:56:57):\r\n\r\nBut I like that it gives tracks so they can move along.\r\n\r\nMark (00:57:03):\r\n\r\nIt would be helpful\u2014and might have been even helpful for you in that moment\u2014imagine if you knew, in that moment: \u201cMy grief is normal. My experience here is part of what it means to be a human and what it means to be a Christian. As I sing, God is moving me along. I'm actually making progress right now.\u201d Because so many people, when they're in a worship service like that, their emotions\u2014and they can't sing\u2014they feel like a failure: \u201cIf I was a real Christian, I could just sing,\u201d or \u201c\u2026I could smile more,\u201d or\u2014because they have this idea that\u2019s what happens with real Christians as they experience pain\u2014they live in a way that is disconnected from their pain. \r\n\r\nTo be a Christian means that you're in pain; and yet, you trust.\r\n\r\nAnn (00:57:44):\r\n\r\nHonestly, it was so hard for me to understand the purpose. It seemed ridiculous [her sister\u2019s death]: \u201cThis is the dumbest thing, Lord; I don't understand.\u201d It was good for me to be reminded: I needed the Word, and I needed worship. \r\n\r\nI felt like I couldn't pray sometimes. Is that normal? I've heard a lot of people say, \u201cI can't even pray.\u201d That made me feel guilty. But there is a part of me\u2014I can't even\u2014that's why church was important, just to hear it and to be reminded of: \u201cThis is who He is.\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (00:58:16):\r\n\r\nTo answer your first question about hardly even praying\u2014Psalm 77\u2014\u201cIn the day of my trouble, I seek the Lord; but my soul refuses to be comforted.\u201d His prayers aren't working. \r\n\r\nLet me ask you, if I can: \u201cIt felt like it was unfair,\u201d or \u201c\u2026felt like it was stupid,\u201d I think is the word you used, which I get. Did you come to a point of accepting or resolving that tension?\r\n\r\nAnn (00:58:50):\r\n\r\nNo.\r\n\r\nMark (00:58:51):\r\n\r\n\u201cIt just is what it is.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:58:53):\r\n\r\nWhen you look at it, she's 44 with 4 little boy; 4 boys. To me, that seemed like: \u201cWhat would the point be?\u201d My resolution was: \u201cGod is good, and I can trust Him; and I don't need to know the answer,\u201d\u2014that was it\u2014\"I'm going to trust Him because I know He has an answer; I know He knows all things.\u201d\r\n\r\nI think that, maybe, this happened to you. I had to be in the Word constantly to be reminded of the truth of how good He was. If I wasn't in the Word, I think I could have drifted for sure.\r\n\r\nMark (00:59:28):\r\n\r\nYeah, your emotions certainly would take you that way. And the evidence in front of you might even take you that way; because objectively, \u201cHow could that be good?\u201d And yet, if you were to stand\u2014imagine in front of me is the cross; and behind me, is Resurrection Sunday, empty tomb\u2014if I have my back to the resurrection; and all I see is the cross, my conclusion is: \u201cThis is unfair,\u201d \u201cThis is unjust,\u201d \u201cThis is a waste.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (00:59:58):\r\n\r\n\u201cIt's stupid.\u201d \r\n\r\nMark (01:00:00):\r\n\r\n\u201cIt\u2019s stupid,\u201d\u2014100 percent. And so part of it is just realizing\u2014in time, if we turn and we understand the rest of the story\u2014we'll see, \u201cOh, that's what's going on.\u201d That's to live in that gap or that tension though\u2014\u201cWhat do we do in that season?\u201d\u2014that's the language of lament.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:00:20):\r\n\r\nI think the older we get, the more you see: \u201cShould we mourn the death of someone in Christ? We know it's paradise, what they're experiencing eternally with the Father. That is good news. It's just for us here, who are suffering in the midst of it; that's the hard part, not for them.\u201d I usually hear people\u2014my sister didn't complain as she was dying\u2014she was my best friend. She didn't want to leave her kids, but she knew what was to come. I struggled more than she did.\r\n\r\nMark (01:00:54):\r\n\r\nAnd there's just something objectively true at every funeral\u2014which is: \u201cDeath is outrageous,\u201d\u2014the separation of family; the loss of relationship. It's a regular reminder: \u201cSomething is seriously wrong with the world.\u201d Every death is a reminder of that. I think part of it is that we live in our everyday human experience, and we become a little inoculated to the problem and the presence of sin in the world. Sometimes, it takes a death to remind us. Solomon put it this way: \u201cIt's better to go to the house of mourning than the house of feasting.\u201d \r\n\r\nWhy did he say that?\u2014\"I said that because you learn more at funerals than you do at parties; you listen to what's said.\u201d I think it's David Brooks who talks about eulogy virtues versus resume virtues. Eulogy virtues are the things that are said about you at your funeral; resume virtues are the things that you build your career upon. He says, basically: \u201cBe sure that you're living by eulogy virtues, not just resume virtues,\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (01:01:55):\r\n\r\nThat's good.\r\n\r\nMark (01:01:55):\r\n\r\n\u2014which I think is really an insightful caution about: \u201cHow we can live our lives in an incorrect sort of focused way.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:02:04):\r\n\r\nI love this quote in your book from Nicholas\u2014how do you say it?\u2014Wolterstorff? \r\n\r\nMark (01:02:09):\r\n\r\nWolterstorff, yeah.\r\n\r\nDave (01:02:10):\r\n\r\n\u201cI shall look at the world through tears. Perhaps I shall see things that, dry-eyed, I could not see.\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (01:02:17):\r\n\r\nMan, oh, man. He uses eyes as a metaphor. I use ears: \u201cOnce you've heard lament, it's amazing how you hear it in so many other spaces.\u201d Or once you see it or hear it in one space, you begin to realize: \u201cOh, it's there,\u201d and \u201cIt's there,\u201d and \u201cIt's there,\u201d and \u201cIt's there.\u201d You realize that there's a reason that Jesus was called a Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief: here's the God-man in the world, and He is seeing the effects of the departure from the glory of God. He stands at Lazarus's grave. He knows He is going to raise him from the dead, but He's weeping. Why is He weeping? Because it didn't have to be this way. The sorrow of Lazarus's family\u2014and Jesus is acquainted with our grief\u2014and yet, He\u2019s about ready to call him out of the grave. There's something fundamentally wrong with the world. Christians know the answer: it's sin. The broken world we live in cries out for redemption.\r\n\r\nAnn: That\u2019s so good!\r\n\r\nDave (01:03:19):\r\n\r\nHow would you coach or counsel a listener, or somebody watching, who\u2019s been following us this whole time, and saying, \u201cI don't think I've ever lamented. I'm definitely in grief; I'm definitely sad. I'm not sure I've ever lamented. How do I start?\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (01:03:37):\r\n\r\nI'd start by looking at Psalm 13; read it out loud\u2014it's short; it's clear\u2014the transition is there. \r\n\r\nAnd then, after you see it and read it, imagine you translate that in your own version. Imagine the Wilson translation or the Vroegopean translation: \u201cWhat does that sound like?\u201d Like what you were doing with your guitar: you were taking Psalm 77, with music and the whole thing, you were interpreting it in your own life and experience. \r\n\r\nThe third step would be to take the framework of\u2014turn; complaint; ask; and trust\u2014and just try it. Talk to God; turn to Him in your grief. Lay out what's wrong. Ask for Him to help, and trust Him. And then, start doing that on a more regular basis to see how it is that the Lord uses this prayer language to give you grace. I think folks will be surprised that just baby steps in this way results in an overflow of mercy and grace that God sends our way.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:04:37):\r\n\r\nCan you give us an example of that? Do it when your daughter died\u2014when you suffered and you were grieving\u2014give us an example of what that could look like and what you did. \r\n\r\nMark (01:04:53):\r\n\r\nIn that moment, I am calling out to God, and acknowledging: \u201cGod, I\u2019m really hurting, and I'm really scared. I am worried that my wife is never going to stop crying. How are we going to make it? How am I going to be a pastor?\u201d and \u201cWhy?\u2014a nine-pound little baby doesn't deserve this, and there's no answer. I'm going to be left for the rest of my life with an unexplained stillbirth, which means no ability to prevent it in the future. It's not a problem I can solve; I don't what the problem was. But I know You're good. I know I can trust You. You've proven yourself over, and over, and over in my life that You're trustworthy. I'm going to live in this tension of a life that's harder than what I wanted, and a situation that feels more overwhelming than what I think I can bear. I'm just going to believe that, somehow, some way, You're going to help me. Therefore, I'm going to sing my way through the storm. I'm going to trust that You're going to help me; You're not going to leave me. I'm still hurting, so come.\u201d That would be how I would interpret \r\n\r\nPsalm 13.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:06:13):\r\n\r\nAnd would you have to do that again and again?\r\n\r\nMark (01:06:15):\r\n\r\nAgain, and again, and again, and again, and again. Even as you asked me to do this\u2014it's been 22 years since my daughter's passing\u2014and it doesn't take a lot for the emotion to pop right up.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:06:29):\r\n\r\nIt doesn't take me a lot to go with you in it.\r\n\r\nMark (01:06:31):\r\n\r\nYeah. Here's another thing\u2014I'm not a grief counselor\u2014I don't have training in that. Let me just tell you, experientially, what I've observed, as a pastor, helping a lot of people in grief. Sometimes, people think that grief recovery looks like: \u201cI get over it, and I never grieve again.\u201d They think\/they wish that was the case: \u201cOh, it just hasn't been my experience, but the experience of others.\u201d \r\n\r\nInstead, what it looks like is the length of time between really strong, and almost frightening, emotions; it gets further and further apart. Two years [pass] \u2014Sylvia's birthday comes up; or we're hanging up Christmas ornaments, [one\u2019s] got her name on it\u2014those emotions come rushing back, like out of nowhere. Or I was doing a talk on lament last weekend; and somebody asked me a question\u2014I forget what it was about\u2014I started to tell a little part of the story. I had to stop because I actually got very emotional. I just paused, and I was like, \u201cLook, I don't even know where this is coming from. It's not even within my control; but apparently, I'm still a person who's grieving at some level.\u201d \r\n\r\nJohn Piper described it this way: \u201cIt's like an amputation. You heal, but you're never the same.\u201d I think that's a good way to think about it: \u201cI'm okay, but this will always be true. I'm able to move on and still glorify the Lord. And not everything in my life is defined by these sorrows and losses, but it doesn't take a lot to open that subject back up.\u201d There's always a good amount of appropriate sorrow; it doesn't mean I haven't healed\u2014I think I have healed\u2014but it means that that moment counted. I'm a normal human being who is still processing that.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:08:19):\r\n\r\nI'm thinking about your kids: \u201cHow old are your kids now?\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (01:08:24):\r\n\r\nOur twins are 28; another son who's 25; and our daughter, Savannah's, 19.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:08:30):\r\n\r\nHow have you taught this to them? I think one of the things I love about you, Mark, is you're not afraid to show emotion, pain, and sorrow. What's that look like for us, as parents? How can we help our kids with this?\r\n\r\nMark (01:08:44):\r\n\r\nThat's a really good question. I don't know the full answer to that; because I think that sort of depends on the person, their personality, the event that's happened, the age of their kids, even kind of the wiring of their kids. The risk would be is I get a simplistic and prescriptive answer. \r\n\r\nBut let me try, at one level, just to set the framework. I think that it's important for parents to appropriately allow their kids into their grief. I say, \u201cappropriately\u201d; because there are boundaries. There are levels of transparency that parents shouldn't go to because it would be damaging to kids.\r\n\r\n(01:09:32)\r\n\r\nBut there's another extreme, which is that kids don't know that fighting through sorrow and battling it is actually the success, not never having it. I think welcoming them in\u2014sharing the struggles, as appropriate\u2014teaching them how to grieve. Hopefully, the kids are old enough that they've got a theology already built into their system, because of what they've heard and seen, depending, again, on the age. It's hard to teach a child a theology of suffering in suffering. That theology needs to be built in before; so then, it can click in\u2014and again, age appropriate\u2014et cetera, et cetera. \r\n\r\nOne of the things I'm thankful for in the last five years has been some resources for kids about lament\u2014even a great book\/a kids' book\u2014called The Moon Is Always Round.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:10:27):\r\n\r\nWe just interviewed\u2014\r\n\r\nMark (01:10:29):\r\n\r\n\u2014Jon Gibson; yeah.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:10:30):\r\n\r\nWe had Jonathan call in his wife; she was here, talking about the book.\r\n\r\nMark (01:10:35):\r\n\r\nThat's right.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:10:35):\r\n\r\nBut then, we had Jonathan read the book. \r\n\r\nMark (01:10:38):\r\n\r\nI can't imagine.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:10:38):\r\n\r\nIt's so good!\r\n\r\nMark (01:10:40):\r\n\r\nThat idea\u2014that model\u2014when I saw the book, I was like, \u201cOh, praise God. Thank You, Jesus, that somebody's doing this kind of work.\u201d And there\u2019s a new book out\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (01:10:47):\r\n\r\nBecause they had lost their stillborn child. \r\n\r\nMark (01:10:49):\r\n\r\nYes; exactly. \r\n\r\nI think one of the staff folks at TGC [The Gospel Coalition]\u2014I think it's maybe Betsy Childs Howard\u2014has a children's book on lament, specifically. Just super thankful for people entering into this space; because kids need to know that this situation in life that we're in is real, and it's consequential. And then, I think also finding ways to exercise the lament muscle in minor moments of disappointment instead of just major moments.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:11:18):\r\n\r\nYeah, that's good.\r\n\r\nMark (01:11:18):\r\n\r\nSo that, when you feel mistreated at school, or when you're disappointed about something that you've lost, or some childhood grief, I think it's important to teach kids: \u201cHow do we respond to that? How do we use this biblical language?\u201d If you're only applying lament in the most dark and difficult scenarios of life, it feels really intense. It's hard to apply something if you're trying to do it for the first time. So those are a few ways.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:11:50):\r\n\r\nI think, too, to demonstrate, even in prayer, before our kids. When our kids were little, I can remember driving them to school. They were elementary\u2014young elementary\u2014but allowing them to see my disappointment or sadness, like, \u201cLord, I feel sad today,\u201d\u2014but to end the prayer\u2014\u201cBut I trust You because I know You're good.\u201d For little ears to hear those things, I think that's teaching our kids we can be real and honest with God: \u201cMom says that she loves Him, and she trusts Him, and that He's good.\u201d Those things lock into our kids, knowing: \u201cI can trust God too. I may not know Him like Mom does, but Mom and Dad think that He's good and He's trustworthy. I can also be really honest with Him.\u201d I can say, in Michigan, like, \u201cLord, how many days is it going to be cloudy? What's happening?\u201d To see: \u201cThis is a conversation with a God we love,\u2014\r\n\r\nMark (01:12:44):\r\n\r\nAbsolutely.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:12:45):\r\n\r\n\u2014who's with us.\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (01:12:46):\r\n\r\nWe need our kids to have a fully-orbed understanding of the Christian life. As long as the laments are balanced with opportunities for thanksgiving and praise, I think that\u2019s great.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:13:00):\r\n\r\nThat's good.\r\n\r\nMark (01:13:01):\r\n\r\nThe trouble is that so many of us, we kind of have an inkling or we're so chipper, we don't acknowledge that things are hard or we're so naturally given to despair that the only time we're praying out loud is when the sky is falling, so to speak. You know what I mean? And so that's where, and kids learn: \u201cOh, real Christians are just really sad all the time.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (01:13:21):\r\n\r\nOr \u201cThere's never sadness. Mom's always up, and everything's great.\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (01:13:26):\r\n\r\nYeah. So June, July, and August does happen in Michigan; right?\r\n\r\nAnn (01:13:29):\r\n\r\nI'll say that: \u201cLord, look at this tree that You created in the fall.\u201d We're celebrating all of it.\r\n\r\nMark (01:13:35):\r\n\r\nI just think it needs to be balanced and appropriately calibrated to understand the Christian life is highs and lows. \r\n\r\nAnn (01:13:47):\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s just like marriage.\r\n\r\nMark (01:13:48):\r\n\r\nYep. What Eugene Peterson said: \u201cIt's a long obedience in the same direction. We're just going to take one step in highs, and lows, and difficulties. We're just going to keep marching on, trusting the Lord.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:13:58):\r\n\r\nYeah. It's interesting. I was not excited about this interview. I like you, Mark; but I'm like, \u201cWe're going to talk about lament for several sessions?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn (01:14:10):\r\n\r\nYou don't like to stay in the box. \r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nMark (01:14:11):\r\n\r\nI have a hard time believing that, because you got up and wrote a song about it.\r\n\r\nDave (01:14:13):\r\n\r\nI didn't write it; David did. But let me ask you this: \u201cIs there anything we didn't hit that you're like, \u2018Oh, gee, we missed this.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nMark (01:14:24):\r\n\r\nYou didn't miss anything. There's just one\u2014we've talked a lot about Psalms\u2014I just want to mention Lamentations. Lamentations is the longest lament in the whole Bible.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:14:34):\r\n\r\nAnd we don't always like to read Lamentations.\r\n\r\nMark (01:14:36):\r\n\r\nWe do not.\r\n\r\nDave (01:14:37):\r\n\r\n\u201cI'm not teaching that on a sermon.\u201d And you did a whole series on it; you walked your congregation through it.\r\n\r\nMark (01:14:42):\r\n\r\nI did. Our staff were a little bit like, \u201cWe're going to spend how many weeks on this?\u201d But it actually proved to be one of the most consequential sermons in the life of our congregation.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:14:52):\r\n\r\nReally?\r\n\r\nMark (01:14:52):\r\n\r\nBecause it demonstrated two things: one, there is a boatload of people in the church who Lamentations was like, \u201cThat's my song.\u201d And [secondly], it also demonstrated we can talk about grief or lament for six weeks and be okay. We actually have more resilience in this space; we're more afraid of it than what we even want to acknowledge. \r\n\r\nLamentations speaks about the destruction of Jerusalem, and it's like a mountain. Chapters 1 and 2 are just rehearsing what's wrong. Chapter 3 is kind of the summit. The pinnacle of the summit is: \u201cThe steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; His mercies never come to an end.\u201d I love how the New Living translation renders it; it says, \u201cI will never forget this awful time; and yet, I will dare to hope.\u201d The idea is: when hoping is often a dare; it's a big risk to hope in God when you have a really hard time.\u201d\r\n\r\nWhat I love about Lamentations is, after that sort of signature moment\u2014where he just plants a flag: \u201cGod is faithful, and God is just,\u201d\u2014there's two more chapters. There's Chapter 4, where things are not still great;  Chapter 5, things are still not great. And the whole lament ends with this: \u201cRestore us, O Lord, to Yourself that we may be restored. Renew us as the days of old unless You have utterly rejected us and You remain exceedingly angry with us.\u201d That\u2019s how it ends.\r\n\r\n(01:16:28)\r\n\r\nNow, why do I love that? There's a whole host of theological things\u2014we can talk about that\u2014\"Why do I love that?\u201d It's because most of our lives look more like that than they do like a Hallmark movie.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:16:38):\r\n\r\nYes!\r\n\r\nMark (01:16:39):\r\n\r\nIt's like you get up, off your knees, praying\u2014you get out of your couch, after you've poured out your heart to the Lord\u2014and you're like: \u201cWell, I don't know if my kids are coming back,\u201d \u201cI don't know how my sister's kids are going to fare.\u201d The reason that's important is because some people can think that lament ties a bow on it all. It's a package; and lament and lamentation shows us: \u201cNo, it actually opens up a new vista, with a lot of risk, but a lot of confidence. But knowing that, as CS Lewis talked about in The Chronicles of Narnia, we go further up and further in; further up, further in; further up, further in. The more you understand and expand on this, the better questions you have; the more unresolved life actually is. And yet, you still have a great confidence that, someday, some way, God's going to make it all clear. Until then, you rest in the fact that: The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nDave (01:17:40):\r\n\r\nWow. Well, I'm thinking everything you've said\u2014and even Lamentations there\u2014\"If my mom could think about that,\u201d\u2014if she would've been able to understand lament\u2014my dad leaves; my brother dies; I'm seven, he's five\u2014like six, seven weeks, later,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn (01:18:03):\r\n\r\n\u2014after the divorce.\r\n\r\nDave (01:18:04):\r\n\r\nAnd my sister, who was in high school, told us, just last year; she goes, \u201cYeah, you don't know this; you were a little boy. But I came home from high school, and the pastor's walking out of our house. He says to me, \u201cYour brother just died.\u201d Mom never talked about it ever again; it was never brought up. It was like, \u201cThat's what you do. You just\u2014\u2018Okay, bad thing happened; we move on.\u2019\u201d To listen to this, I'm like, \u201cWow.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnd so what was her escape?\u2014alcohol; that's where she ran. And it would probably have not had to go that way if she had been able to understand that. And me, as a little boy, like, \u201cThis is hard.\u201d You can cry\u2014and crying; that\u2019s human\u2014I love that quote: \u201cTo lament is Christian.\u201d We were never taught that. This is such a gift to so many people to understand that.\r\n\r\nMark (01:18:51):\r\n\r\nAnd isn't God kind that, even though you didn't know that language, even though your mom didn't, I bet if we were to trace back how informative those moments in your life have been to actually where you are today. So even when we don't know how to lament, God still is kind; He's still sovereign. This is our language, though, to help us in the in-between times.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:19:13):\r\n\r\nAnd the bow happens when we are with Jesus and eternity; that\u2019s the bow.\r\n\r\nMark (01:19:18):\r\n\r\nExactly; that's when the tears get wiped away, and our faith becomes sight. Until then, we just got to keep lamenting until He comes. \r\n\r\nDave: Thank you. \r\n\r\nMark: You\u2019re welcome. \r\n\r\nDave: It's been great.\r\n\r\nMark: It\u2019s been great to talk with you guys today.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:19:29):\r\n\r\nHey, thanks for watching. If you'd like this episode,\u2014\r\n\r\nDave (01:19:32):\r\n\r\nYou better like it.\r\n\r\nAnn (01:19:33):\r\n\r\n\u2014just hit that \u201cLike\u201d button.\r\n\r\nDave (01:19:34):\r\n\r\nAnd we'd like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the \u201cSubscribe\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\ncan't say the word, \u201csubscribe\u201d\u2014hit the \u201cSubscribe\u201d button. I don't think I can say this \r\n\r\nword! \r\n\r\nAnn: I can subscribe. \r\n\r\nDave: Look at that! You say it so easily. \u201cSubscribe\u201d; there he goes!\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. 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