{"id":316717,"date":"2025-07-10T04:05:17","date_gmt":"2025-07-10T08:05:17","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/forks-feelings-and-identity-jonathan-holmes\/"},"modified":"2025-07-10T13:47:53","modified_gmt":"2025-07-10T17:47:53","slug":"forks-feelings-and-identity-jonathan-holmes","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/forks-feelings-and-identity-jonathan-holmes\/","title":{"rendered":"Forks, Feelings, and IDENTITY | Jonathan Holmes"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Are your kids struggling with who they are in a world telling them to follow their feelings? In this powerful episode, Dave and Ann Wilson sit down with Jonathan Holmes, author of Grounded in Grace: Helping Kids Build Their Identity in Christ, to tackle the pressing issue of identity formation in children and teens. Jonathan, executive director of Fieldstone Counseling, brilliantly uses the \u201cdinglehopper\u201d analogy from The Little Mermaid to expose how society misuses identity, leading to instability and mental health crises in our kids. We dive deep into the cultural pressures \u2014 from academics and sports to social media and the rising rates of gender dysphoria \u2014 that are shaping our children\u2019s sense of self.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Dave and Ann Wilson sit down with Jonathan Holmes, author of Grounded in Grace: Helping Kids Build Their Identity in Christ, to tackle the pressing issue of identity formation in children and teens.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":312569,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/b61a849d-7463-4111-bd20-b30700eddaab\/audio.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:58:26","filesize":"53.53M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2025-07-10 04:05:17","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2835,2836],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[9555],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-316717","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-raising-boys","category-raising-girls","cwp_profile-jonathan-holmes","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2025\/02\/image_bbee74.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/316717\/forks-feelings-and-identity-jonathan-holmes","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/316717\/forks-feelings-and-identity-jonathan-holmes","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"lJodd34P1r\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/forks-feelings-and-identity-jonathan-holmes\/\">Forks, Feelings, and IDENTITY | Jonathan Holmes<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/forks-feelings-and-identity-jonathan-holmes\/embed\/#?secret=lJodd34P1r\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Forks, Feelings, and IDENTITY | Jonathan Holmes&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"lJodd34P1r\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! 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Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-07-10.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>Forks, Feelings, and IDENTITY<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Jonathan Holmes<\/p>\n<p>Release Date:July 10, 2025<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:You guys will remember, in The Little Mermaid, Ariel collected all these forks; and she doesn't know what they're for. Scuttle, the seagull, says, \u201cOh, those are called dingle hoppers; and the humans use them to brush their hair.\u201d She's sitting at the dinner table for the first time with Prince Eric. She sees the forks; she starts brushing her hair. Everybody's looking at her, like, \u201cThat's not what forks are made for.\u201d We have done that with identity.<\/p>\n<p>We think we know what identity is for, and so we use it for our own benefit: \u201cI am what I feel,\u201d \u201cI am what I do.\u201d If we want to know what identity really is, we have to go to the Person who created it, and Who created us; and that's God.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Okay, so we got Jonathan Holmes in the studio. Jonathan, I don't know, do you go by \u201cBuckeye\u201d? You're an Ohio guy.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:I am. I'd go by everything except for \u201cCleveland Browns,\u201d as we said earlier. So \u201cGo, Buckeyes!\u201d \u201c\u2026Cavaliers!\u201d \u201c\u2026Guardians!\u201d But put Browns a little bit lower on the list.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:The reason I'm asking\u2014yeah, the Browns are way down there\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:\u2014way down.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014and we know what \u201cdown there\u201d is with the Detroit Lions all those years.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Yes, you do.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You guys are living our life. In fact, you went 0 and 16 after we went 0 and 16, a couple of years later.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:It made us feel better.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014a little bit of empathy. You guys have some empathy for us and our situation.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yes, exactly.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:We're in Michigan now\u2014and we're Ohio\u2014so I can't say \u201cBuckeye\u201d in that state.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Oh, I know.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I run for my life.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Tell our listeners a little bit about\u2014because you're a father of four girls.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:\u2014four girls. I have 16, 14, 12, and 10. I'm in high school, middle school; and my youngest is pulling up the end in elementary school. There's never a dull day in my house.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Do you get to talk at dinner?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Rarely. Most of you guys\u2014literally, most times at dinner, I don't need to say a word\u2014there is so much chatter going on, which is great when we are able to gather for dinner. It's full of life, full of questions. It's a great thing being a girl-dad. I absolutely love it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:How many years have you been married?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:We've been married 20 years this November. My wife and I'll be celebrating 20 years.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That's a big one.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:It is a big one, so we're pretty excited about it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah; well, we're going to talk, obviously, about identity. A lot of it's going to be around Grounded in Grace, your book: Helping Kids Build Their Identity in Christ.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Tell our listeners what you do.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:I serve as the Executive Director of a counseling center. We're based in northeast Ohio; it's called Fieldstone Counseling. We have brick-and-mortar offices in the northeast Ohio area. We have one in Michigan; one in Columbus.<\/p>\n<p>Through remote counseling, we see people all across the country, all<\/p>\n<p>50 states and 26 different countries. Through technology nowadays, it really has opened so many great doors for people to be able to receive help, whose access was a major issue for them beforehand.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And obviously, this is sort of helping parents with their kids, which is huge. But identity\u2014you tell me\u2014isn't it at the center of everything?\u2014every counseling appointment?\u2014every decision?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Yes, I would definitely agree with you. I think identity\u2014and that was one of the reasons why I wrote the book\u2014is so many kids, and teens, and parents were coming in to the counseling room for different issues. Maybe, it was depression; or anxiety; or eating disorders; or suicide. You start to scratch the surface on so many of those mental health issues; underneath all of them really are questions of identity: \u201cWho am I?\u201d \u201cWhy am I here?\u201d \u201cWhat am I supposed to be doing with my life?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think a lot of the messages that the world has given to teens and kids today\u2014about \u201cWho you are,\u201d \u201cWhat's the purpose of life?\u201d\u2014they're not working out for kids and teens. We've told kids and teens today: \u201cHey, be whoever you want to be. The sky's the limit.\u201d And yet, our kids and teens today are facing a mental health crisis like we've never seen before. Something's off; I think underneath it really is this question of identity.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And with the ages of your girls, you're living this power.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:We are; we definitely are. I think so much of the book is actually for me. Ironically, when I was writing the book\u2014you guys will get a kick out of this\u2014to get them [my children] to kind of read the book, I said, \u201cHey, I want you to help me find any typos in the book.\u201d Before it was about to go to print, I just said, \u201cHey, I want you to read the book, and I want you to help me out with it. Give me some examples, or give me some questions.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It ended up serving multiple purposes: helped give me better feedback; but then, really helped make the book, hopefully, feel very conversational and very true to life.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Were they relating to it?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:I think so; especially, a couple of the chapters. One of the chapters is on \u201cFinding Your Identity in Athletics.\u201d Three of my girls play basketball, and that's a big identity-maker for them. There's a lot of pressure, as we were talking about earlier, on kids today in sports.<\/p>\n<p>I just realized: I could even see it in myself when going to games. Certain expectations would just creep up in your heart at the most unexpected times. And you just realize again\u2014it's not just kids\u2014it's parents: we want to find our identity through our kids' performances. Definitely, sports; and then, also academics. Being Asian-American, academics is huge. I found myself, oftentimes, just putting some unnecessary pressures on my kids.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:What's something that you would say, not even meaning to?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Yeah, my kids will come home with a B or something. I'll say, \u201cWell, we could do something to get that a little bit higher.\u201d It was so funny\u2014one of her friends; one of her 16-year-old friends came over\u2014she was spending some time with my oldest daughter. She said, \u201cYeah, B is like an Asian F; so you've got to get that up to an A.\u201d I said, \u201cNo, it really is.\u201d And then, I realized, \u201cOkay\u201d; I had to repent, internally, and say, \u201cYou know what? If a B is the best you can do, then a B is the best you can do.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:But you're right, Jonathan; we, as parents, feel the pressure.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:We do; we do.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I remember: I think one of our sons was in soccer; I think he was four years old. We were getting him in this little soccer league. One of the parents said, \u201cOh, you better start now; because if you don't, he's going to be so far out of it. You won't even get on a team.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Four years old.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:What in the world? It's crazy.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:It's wild; oh, it's totally wild. And when you can step outside of it, and you can kind of see it in other people; and then, the Lord convicts: you're like, \u201cOh my goodness; I'm that person. I'm that parent.\u201d You can get a good laugh out of it.<\/p>\n<p>But we do, as parents, we can draw our identity from our kids\u2014how they're doing\u2014their performance on the athletic field, in the classroom, in the workplace.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:That leads me to this question: \u201cIf I'm trying to help my son or daughter understand identity properly\u2014even from God and from His Word\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014formation.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014but I don't live it or understand it, what do I do? Can I actually teach that in a way that's good if I don't get it?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Yes, I think you can. In the book, I talk about the way that the world has approached identity. Historically, it had been: \u201cYou are what you do,\u201d \u201cYour family of origin. If your dad was a baker, guess what? You're going to grow up; you're going to be a baker,\u201d \u201cBring honor to your family; just be a good person.\u201d That was kind of the old way of forming identity.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cMake your parents proud.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Yeah; \u201cMake your parents proud.\u201d That's what you wanted to do. There wasn't a lot of room for creativity or kind of breaking out of the mold. You just did whatever it was your parents did and what brought them honor.<\/p>\n<p>Today, it's switched around. You don't really listen to a person of authority. You get to choose it\u2014you get to dig deep into your feelings; figure out who it is that you want to be\u2014and then, go out into the world and live that truth. You'll see that on the markets everywhere: \u201cBe your authentic self,\u201d or \u201cLive your true self.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Some of us, as parents, and some of you, as listeners, are thinking, \u201cWait; well, yeah, that's true.\u201d I wrote it down even; because modern identity is now\u2014listen to this\u2014\u201cIn modern identity, the determiner of identity has moved from something outside of you to something inside of you, your inner voice.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You didn't write this down; you're quoting Jonathan.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yeah, I did; I'm quoting this.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Josh is sitting over there, like, \u201cI wrote that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:See, I'm saying I'm writing it down what he said; because this is so good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Okay; okay.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cYour inner voice is now the decisive factor of determining who you are and what you want to be.\u201d It's like: \u201cWhat do I feel?\u201d \u201cWho am I?\u201d \u201cI can be whoever I want to be\u201d; and that can sound good, but\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:It can sound good, but it has some real significant downsides. I'll give you one example: \u201cYour feelings change.\u201d We are telling generations of kids and teens, \u201cHey, dig deep inside your feelings, and figure out who you want to be.\u201d And we're telling three- and four- and five-year-olds that.<\/p>\n<p>But as you guys know: kids' preferences change, literally, by the hour. One day you can feed them macaroni and cheese; and the next day, it\u2019s like they hate that meal; and they want something different. We're telling kids to ground their identity\u2014the most important aspect of who they are\u2014in something that's not stable, that's not secure.<\/p>\n<p>Now, feelings are good; God made us with emotions. It's a great part of being image-bearers of God; but our feelings aren't stable enough to build our entire sense of who we are. That outside voice, again, historically, had belonged to our parents; but sometimes, parents get it wrong, as we've said earlier.<\/p>\n<p>That outside voice really has to be God's voice\u2014God's voice, telling us: \u201cThis is who you are,\u201d \u201cThis is why I've made you,\u201d \u201cThis is your purpose in life,\u201d\u2014that's never going to change, despite your feelings, despite your performance on the athletic court, despite the grades that you get, what college you get into. This is the truest thing about you. I think kids and teens really need to hear that message today.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:How do you communicate that specifically to your girls? What's that sound like? And maybe, give an example of the traditional, the modern; and then, the God-given.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:In the traditional identity-formation process, if I was talking to one of my girls\u2014especially, about grades or academics\u2014I'd say, \u201cHey, don't you want to get into a good college? You want to be a good person. All your other friends are going to Harvard; and they're going to Yale; and they're going to Princeton. Don't you want to bring honor to our family and be a good person?\u201d That motivation could seep out there in that type of conversation.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Parents are going to listen; they're like, \u201cOh, check. That's what I've done.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Okay; I know, but don't worry; there's hope.<\/p>\n<p>On the modern identity side, we can tell kids and teens\u2014there is a good part of: \u201cHey, be who you want; pursue your dreams,\u201d\u2014but you can take that too far. A lot of kids don't have, I think, the maturity and the wherewithal at ten, eleven, twelve years old to really understand: \u201cWhat is it that they want to pursue?\u201d And so it's all feeling-based, which because it's feeling-based, doesn't create that stable, secure foundation.<\/p>\n<p>What we're really trying to push kids and teens towards is: \u201cWho is God?\u201d and \u201cWhat does He say about you?\u201d Just the other day, one of my girls was about to play basketball. I think she was a little down on herself from practice. I just told her\/I said, \u201cListen, at the end of the day, regardless of if you win or lose, we love you no matter what. And God loves you no matter what. Our love for you, our devotion to you; God's love for you, God's devotion towards you is not based on how many points you make, how many buckets you score. Again, she kind of rolls her eyes, here and there\u2014because she hears it so much\u2014but it's that message on repeat, all of her life, that over time, will eventually form a narrative in her mind that: \u201cListen, at the end of the day, God's voice has to be the loudest voice in my heart and my mind.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You feel like for her, or any boy or girl\u2014let's say middle school, high school; and of course, it starts earlier\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Oh, it does.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014can a parent's voice; can God's Word, God's voice trump the voice of their peers and, even, social media?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014and the culture?<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Everybody else is saying, \u201cYeah, your dad may say; but the truth is: if you don't score 12 tonight, we lose; and you're not going to the next level.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:I definitely think that we're in a competitive media market for sure; and our voices, oftentimes, do get drowned out. That's where I think parents have to do a little bit of an audit on what kind of voices are coming into their kids\u2019 and teens\u2019 lives. Not that you have to go live like a hermit, and cut yourself off from all media; but just even, a lot times, parents are really in the dark about the voices and about the narratives that are coming in. They're kind of clueless as to what their kids are listening to, watching, or reading. Maybe, that's even a first step for a parent is just to know: \u201cWhat are the narratives that my kids are listening to and taking in?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And do you think those are prevalent, Jonathan?\u2014with the modern; it's everywhere.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Oh, you guys, it's everywhere: from the marketing of American Girl dolls to young kids; \u201cPick whoever it is that you want to be\u201d; to sports, to academics. It's pervasive; it's everywhere.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You\u2019re even talking about video games and what girls are wearing.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Oh, my goodness.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And then, what the dolls are looking like.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Absolutely; absolutely. And it's one of those things where it's so subtle you don't even recognize it because it is everywhere from selling fast food ads to, again, one author said, culture is constantly promoting a vision of the good life: \u201cThis is what the good life is,\u201d \u201cThis is the life that you want to have,\u201d\u2014it's shiny; it's exciting; it's not dull; it's something that you want and that's attractive to kids.<\/p>\n<p>I think, if parents don't find creative and consistent ways to kind of identify those narratives; and then, to counterbalance those with a biblical narrative, we're going to lose the battle at the end of the day.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:It's interesting: when you're talking about navigating, as a parent, what kind of input your kids are hearing. I know there's other parents who say: \u201cThere's no danger, and you're isolated them from the world.\u201d I remember\u2014when you said that, I remember sitting in a locker room with some of the quarterbacks before we're going to play the Saints\u2014we're in New Orleans. Matthew Stafford's there, Sean Hill, Dan Orlowski. Matthew Stafford makes this comment\u2014again, we're going to play a game in<\/p>\n<p>30 minutes\u2014somehow, they get in this discussion about social media. Matthew just says, \u201cI never ever look.\u201d \u201cWhatcha talking about?\u201d He goes, \u201cI don't want to know what people are saying about me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014or even in the news.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u201cI do not want to know\u2014I will never\u2014I don't have Facebook; I don't have an account.\u201d Of course, everybody today knows his wife does; and she posts quite a bit. I was: \u201cWay to go\u201d; because as good as you are at this level, there's still all these people [with negative takes].<\/p>\n<p>Our kids are fighting that worse than we are; so to help them say: \u201cIt's okay to not [be on social].\u201d I watched American Idol the other night. Carrie Underwood, literally, says, \u201cI post, and I ghost.\u201d I'm like, \u201cWhat does she mean by that?\u201d She goes, \u201cI'll post something to help people. I never ever look at comments.\u201d I'm like, \u201cShe knows, as great as she is, there\u2019s going to be negatives.\u201d Our kids, every day they walk down the hall, it's negative. Their identity is being shaped by those voices, not ours.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:One of the things I used to do when the boys were young. We'd pray; put them to bed; maybe, read a book, a devotional, or whatever. But I remember\u2014they were little when I started this; maybe, three or four\u2014I would say, \u201cI can't wait to see what God has for you.\u201d And they would say\u2014as a little child\u2014\"Is it a present?\u201d I said, \u201cIt's kind of because, when you discover who He made you to be, who God made you to be, and what God has put in you as your gifts and strengths, it'll be the best present you've ever had.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Absolutely; absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And they said, \u201cHow do we get it?\u201d I said, \u201cAs you get older, and you get closer to Him, you'll discover it; He\u2019ll let you know.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That's different from: \u201cHey, you can be\u201d\u2014it's true; there's a good part of: \u201cYou can be whoever you want to be,\u201d\u2014but it's really\u2014\u201cwhoever God wants you to be.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Exactly; exactly. And I love that analogy of a present, because that\u2019s really the core of gospel identity is a gift that is received, not achieved. It is a gift in that God gives us this identity; it's not something that we have to earn. It's not something that we have to feel our way towards, that we have to earn our way towards, that we have to score a certain score for; it truly is a gift that He gives to us.<\/p>\n<p>I actually think that that's the most freeing kind of identity because it's not something that you can lose. If you have a bad day, you have a bad day. On social media, if you have a bad day, it could be the end of your career; it could be the end of your life, as it were. I don't know about you guys\u2014but I\u2019m seeing, culturally, a little bit of a shift\u2014where I think a lot of kids and teens are beginning to see some of the disillusionment of what the world has offered. You see people going without their phones, or closing social media accounts, or\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014dumb phones.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Yeah, going back to dumb phones; because they realize: \u201cOkay, the world has promised me \u2018X\u2019; and they've not delivered on it. Maybe, I need to be open to listening to my parents,\u201d or \u201c\u2026going back to Scripture and finding out what the Bible has to say about who I am.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Talk to our listeners, especially, and help us understand: \u201cWhat does God say about our identity?\u201d One of the things I've said, as a preacher for<\/p>\n<p>30 years\u2014I probably said it way too much, so our congregation was like, \u201cOkay, we know what you believe,\u201d\u2014is that I would say it this way: \u201cThere's two beliefs that we all carry that determine every decision, every single day. Belief one is theology: \u2018What do we believe about God?\u2014His attributes, who He is.\u2019 Belief two is identity: \u2018What do we believe about ourselves?\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>True or false?\u2014I don't know.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:That's absolutely true.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I said: \u201cMan, if we think God is distant, angry, we're going to live in fear. If we see him as a loving Father, who's present and encourages, like, \u2018Wow!\u2019\u201d But then, at the other side is: \u201cWhat do I believe about myself?\u201d When I say that, it's like, \u201cWell, then, now I got to teach people: \u2018Who is God?\u2019 \u2018Who am I?\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So when people ask you about identity, what do you say?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:I think your two points are absolutely critical because knowledge about God leads us to knowledge of ourselves. So I should have you credit in the book, I should have put:\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014whatever; whatever.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:\u2014\"Dave Wilson; these are the two truths that you need to know.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Does that make you feel better?<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I don't think it's very original. I did not originate that. Probably Tim Keller or some other brain.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:We'll put that in the second edition.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah, there you go; there you go.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:The starting point for me is Genesis 1:26 where it says, \u201cLet Us make man in Our image.\u201d The core part of our identity is that we are image-bearers of God. Here's why that is so foundational to identity; is that we realize, then, we don't exist for ourselves or by ourselves. We are created beings who are created by a Divine Creator for a purpose. Everything that we do, everything that we say\u2014the things that we value, things that we love, that we're after\u2014ultimately, have to be informed by Whom we were created for and Whom we were created by.<\/p>\n<p>I give a silly illustration like this: my kids all grew up watching Disney movies. We love The Little Mermaid. You guys will remember, in The Little Mermaid, Ariel collected all these forks; and she doesn't know what they're for. She goes up to talk to Scuttle, the seagull; and he says, \u201cOh, those are called dingle hoppers. The humans use them to brush their hair.\u201d She gets super pumped and excited. Flash forward to: she's sitting at the dinner table for the first time with Prince Eric, and she sees the forks at the dinner setting. She picks it up, and she starts brushing her hair. Everybody's looking at her, like, \u201cWeirdo; that's not what forks are made for. Forks are for bringing food to your mouth to eat.\u201d I think we have done that with identity.<\/p>\n<p>We think we know what identity is for, and so we use it for our own benefit. Again: \u201cI am what I feel,\u201d \u201cI am what I do,\u201d\u2014whatever cultural narrative is being kind of pedaled to us. But if we want to know what identity really is, we have to go to the Person who created it, and Who created us; and that's God. God gets the final say on who we are and what He says about us too.<\/p>\n<p>This is another piece of identity, that I think sometimes gets missed out, is that God's Word to us is a good word. Sometimes, I think we see God's identity as somewhat being restrictive, like, \u201cOkay, it's a bunch of rules and regulations.\u201d I think we miss out on the positive vision of identity that God gives us. In Genesis 1:28, the very first words that God gives to Adam and Eve are words of invitation, not words of prohibition. He says, \u201cBe fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.\u201d God's not a God of \u201cNo\u2019s,\u201d like, \u201cNo, you can't do this.\u201d God's actually a God who invites us into His redemptive program, to say, \u201cHey, I want you to flourish here on the earth that I've designed and created you for.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:It's crazy; as you're talking about that, I can remember\u2014I didn't grow up going to church, or in a Christian home; I had good parents\u2014but I remember being eight years old. I had already gone through sexual abuse; but I can remember, in my bed, thinking, \u201cWhy am I here?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I had never had that thought until 20 years old. She told me that when we were first dating.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:It\u2019s probably, a girl-thing, Dave.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I don\u2019t know what it was; like, \u201cYou thought about that when you were eight? I just wanted to throw a football.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:But I think that's a question that, at some point, we ask, \u201cWhy am I here?\u201d; we're looking for answers.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:We are; we are. I was on the phone last night with one of my daughters. She's having a particular struggle; and she said, \u201cWhy? What is all of this worth? Why should I keep trying in this one particular area?\u201d We had a really good conversation. I said, \u201cWell, here's why it's worth something\u2014it's worth enduring; it's worth persevering\u2014because on the other side of it, I think is God's good path for you. Is it going to be hard for you right now?\u2014absolutely.\u201d Middle school is a brutal time for girls right now. But there is something worth following Christ, and obeying Him, and pressing through the hard.<\/p>\n<p>Those are big existential questions that people are asking: \u201cWhy am I here?\u201d \u201cWhy did this happen?\u201d \u201cWhat is life for?\u201d I think that culture\u2014the answers that culture is putting up right now\u2014are shiny and exciting, but they fade away really quickly.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:What do you think? What are the shiny and exciting things you think it says?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:I think one of the things is just: \u201cLive for yourself; be whoever you want to be.\u201d I think people hear that\u2014again, there's a good part about that: \u2018Pursue your dreams,\u2019 et cetera\u2014but you realize, \u201cOkay, well, everybody else is also trying to pursue their dreams.\u201d It can become a vicious cycle of competitiveness, and everybody's trying to constantly become a better version of themselves. You realize: \u201cIf the goal is to be your best self, or your happiest self, well, that's a never-ending journey: \u201cYou could always be happier,\u201d \u201cYou could always be richer,\u201d \u201cYou could always be better looking,\u201d \u201cYou could always be a better\u2026\u201d\u2014you fill in the blank.<\/p>\n<p>It's kind of that rat race that I think is actually driving so much of the depression and the anxiety. The suicide that we're seeing is because people get to the end of the day, and they realize: \u201cWhy am I doing all of this?\u201d \u201cWhat is this for?\u201d They'll post something on social media, and people will say horrible and hateful things about them. They kind of throw their hands up in the air, and say, \u201cI give up. I don't want to keep doing this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And that's where, again, I think coming in with biblical truth about who we are can provide a stable, secure foundation for kids and teens today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Growing up, I never probably even thought of the word, \u201cidentity.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Right; yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And again, some of that was nobody's talking about it. I'm not saying I should or shouldn't not. I just never even connected that my identity\u2014and I didn't even realize it was connected to success on sports fields\u2014I was a musician and a singer in a band; so being approved that way. I've shared this here before\u2014when Ann and I are in our first year of marriage\u2014we're at the University of Nebraska as a chaplain. We're on staff with Cru, basically, as a missionary under Athletes in Action. And now, I'm being introduced. A year ago\/nine months ago, I'm playing college football, and I had national stats. Right now, I'm being introduced: \u201cHey, this is Dave Wilson. What do you do again? Oh, he's on staff with Athletes in Action\u201d; that's it! Nobody knew: \u201cOh, I used to\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I come home to my wife\u2014this is so embarrassing\u2014I say to Ann, \u201cHey, nobody knows I was somebody. I was pretty good, and I can't say it: \u2018Hey, I used to\u2026\u2019 because I look like an insecure loser.\u201d I, literally said, \u201cCould you, when you're with me, could you go, \u2018Hey, by the way, last year, Dave was leading the nation\u2019?\u201d Know what she says? She loves me; so \u201cYeah, honey, I'll do that for you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>How lame is that?\u2014that my entire identity is what I used to do, and I'm trying to prove it. Again, obviously, I had to go on a journey to find out what you just said: \u201cGod says you're precious; you're loved; you're<\/p>\n<p>forgiven; you're a son of Mine.\u201d It's like all that's imago Dei: \u201cYou're made in My image.\u201d None of that seemed to matter: \u201cAll that matters is what other people think of me\u2014they don't care about that stuff\u2014they care about this.\u201d Is that the normal journey for most people?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:You know what? When you're putting it like that, I think it is. I don't think a lot of kids and teens today are thinking about\u2014unless you've got some deep philosophical thinkers\u2014nobody's thinking, in their bedroom\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Like you [Ann] at eight years old.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:\u2014 yeah, maybe like Ann\u2014but everybody functions out of an identity. Everybody lives out an identity.\u201d You have to, right? On April 15, we all pay our taxes\u2014why?\u2014because we live in this country, and that's what the law says we have to do. I can't wake up on April 15, and say, \u201cYou know what? I don't identify today as a taxpayer. I'm just going to do whatever it is I want.\u201d No, that's a part of our identity; and that's what we have to do as a result.<\/p>\n<p>All of us live and act out of an identity. It's just, oftentimes, more back burner; we're not thinking about it until we talk about it. Which is actually one of the reasons why I think, if parents were to talk about it, maybe it would move to the front burner of kids' minds. Maybe kids would begin to say\/maybe teens would say: \u201cOkay, why do I do what I do?\u201d or \u201cWho am I doing these things for?\u201d One of the things that I try to say in the book is: \u201cBefore you ask\u2014\u2018Who am I?\u2019\u2014ask, \u2018Whose am I?\u2019\u201d Because that's actually the question behind the identity question. I can't answer: \u201cWho am I?\u201d until I first know: \u201cWhose am I?\u201d and \u201cI belong to the Lord; I'm created by the Lord.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Well, play that out even more. Agree or disagree with this statement: \u201cAlmost everybody\u201d\u2014I'll say, \u201ceverybody\u201d; that way you can either agree or disagree\u2014\u201cEverybody lives for identity or from identity.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Oh, 100 percent agree.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah, so what's it mean?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Everybody is moving and operating out of some type of identity formation. It's like the operating system that we have on our MacBooks, on our iPads, and on our phones; it's just constantly there, running in the background.<\/p>\n<p>It [identity formation] informs the decisions we make. It informs why you make certain choices in the day. It informs the words that you say to the people you're interacting with: \u201cAre you going to be more self-focused and about your dreams?\u201d \u201cAre you going to be more others-centered or others-focused?\u201d It informs how you steward your time, your energy, your resources. It helps inform what's most important to you: what's really worth you giving your time, energy, and attention to? That's all coming from questions of identity.<\/p>\n<p>If sports is the most important thing, and if stats and numbers are the most important thing to you\u2014and form the core sense of who you are\u2014then every free moment's going to be on that driveway, shooting hoops, right? You're not going to have time for friends; you're not going to have time for anything else; that will become your life. You might not know it at that moment; but what's driving that, again, is that sense of identity: \u201cI am what I do,\u201d or \u201cI am what I feel.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I remember\u2014I think it was probably 15 years ago\u2014I was leading a high school small group, which was fun for me. We had three sons; they were all in high school. Man, I was shocked by the pressure these girls were feeling. They were busier than my friends, who were in their 40s. \u201cWhat are these girls?\u201d\u2014they have so much: they're all in sports; they're all in some competitive [team], or cheer, or something. We're in a neighborhood where our high school was very strong, academically. The pressure that they felt with schoolwork, with getting into the best colleges in the country.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You're [Jonathan] right there.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yeah, you are there; and you're probably seeing it in your girl\u2019s friends. As you're talking about how identity formation is enslaving\u2014it can be the modern identity formation is fragile\u2014and it's performative, all of it. I thought that as I was reading your book; I thought, \u201cThat's what they were all feeling\u2014that push toward\u2014and ultimately, you say, it's an illusion.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Oh, it is. I'll give you a great illustration on that. So Taylor Swift, who has got to be the most authoritative figure on all things.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:What's her name again?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Taylor Swift.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Taylor Swift?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:I don\u2019t know if you've heard of her or not; but in 2022, she gave the commencement speech at a New York university. She has this great line in her speech; she says, \u201cHere's the best news I want to give all of you. You can be whatever it is that you want to be.\u201d And then, she says, \u201cBut now, I want to give you the bad news. You have to figure that out all by yourself.\u201d It was kind of this \u201cAha\u201d moment of: even a blind squirrel can find a nut. She says something that's really truly profound, and she probably doesn't even know it.<\/p>\n<p>That captures a dynamic of identity\u2014it sounds so promising; it sounds so freeing\u2014but it is so enslaving because guess who now becomes the inner task master for identity?\u2014you do. You are constantly setting up these standards, these rules, these objectives, these goals that you must fulfill in order to be this person you want to be. It's this never-ending rat race.<\/p>\n<p>It's, again, whatever stream it is\u2014whether it's your looks; whether it's your sports or academics; or just even: \u201cI just want to be a good person,\u201d\u2014you become the sole authority and arbiter of: \u201cHave you achieved this?\u201d \u201cHave you done enough?\u201d Again, I think, when you look at the rates of burnout and exhaustion that you're seeing amongst young adults, you see people who have tried that method, and have come up, I think, even more despairing, more disillusioned than when they began.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Let's get into this sexuality part of this; because: \u201cYou can be whoever you want to be.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:\u2014and \u201cYou are your feelings. So if you feel this, then, you have to follow that feeling. That feeling now becomes your identity.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Now, again, probably 50 to 100 years ago, that would not have been the main mode of how we interact or operate with our feelings. You and I probably, on any given day, feel a certain feeling and recognize that as: \u201cOkay, I'm not going to follow myself on that feeling: at 10 o'clock at night, I want to have a half gallon of Haagen-Dazs ice cream.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Jonathan, I would like to do that every night!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I do too!<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Exactly! But there's something inside me that says, \u201cOh, no; I can't follow that feeling. Eventually, that will become an unhealthy practice for me.\u201d We probably have a little bit of a better handle on realizing: \u201cYou can't follow every feeling or impulse.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Culturally, today, it's the exact opposite: \u201cYou are your feelings,\u201d and \u201cEspecially, when it comes to romantic sexual attraction, that becomes the defining characteristic of your identity.\u201d Again, 50 to 100 years ago, that would've been very bizarre. Nobody would've introduced themselves as: \u201cOh, my name's So-and-so; and I am a heterosexual,\u201d\u2014fill in the blank.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cMy pronoun is\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:\u201cMy pronoun\u2026\u201d We never would've thought as our sexuality as the most important aspect of our identity. The pressure that kids and teens are facing today to figure that out is leading to some disastrous consequences, I think.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:What do you encourage a parent to do if he's got a daughter, who says, \u201cI think I'm a boy,\u201d or a son who says, \u201cI think I'm a girl.\u201d \u201cI'm 10 years old\/<\/p>\n<p>11 years old; I want therapy,\u201d \u201c\u2026I want\u2026\u201d\u2014maybe, they're not going to go that far\u2014\u201cI'm going to start living and dressing like the other sex.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Well, the first thing is: \u201cStart the conversation. You got to draw out before you dive in.\u201d I think a lot of parents go for the wrong goals in the immediate conversation, which typically is to shut down the conversation and issue a rule or a regulation.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:We always say, \u201cDon\u2019t freak out.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Yes; \u201cOkay, don\u2019t freak out.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:What does it sound like? What would somebody sound like if they're doing that?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:\u201cWe're taking away your phone,\u201d \u201cWe're taking away your phone.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:If they say something like\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:\u2014\u201cThis is all coming from those friends you've been hanging out with; you're losing your phone,\u201d \u201cNo video games for the next month.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cIt\u2019s all coming from the video games.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Exactly. What we do then is\u2014and it's a natural impulse for parents, right?\u2014because we want control.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:It's protection.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:It\u2019s protection. We get nervous; we get freaked out. That's great advice, Dave: \u201cDon't freak out.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You can go in the other room, freak out.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014by yourself.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Then, come back and respond.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Yes, go scream in a pillow. Go role play with your husband; say, \u201cHey, let's practice the conversation.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:But yeah, don't freak out. Kids are intuitive; they pick that up. I'm telling parents, all the time: \u201cDraw out before you dive in.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:That's good.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Draw out with questions: \u201cWho told you that?\u201d \u201cWhy do you think that?\u201d And even some of those narratives\u2014like a boy comes home, and says: \u201cHey, I think I'm a girl,\u201d or \u201cI want to do this,\u201d\u2014just the simple question of: \u201cWell, who told you that? Who told you that, if you want to be in theater,\u201d or \u201c\u2026if you like this, that you have to suddenly change genders?\u201d or \u201c\u2026that you have to completely upend your sexual orientation? Who told you that?\u201d and \u201cWhy do you believe that you have to follow that person or obey that voice? What makes that voice more important than our voice?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:If a child says\/if a teen says: \u201cBecause this is who I am. I'm supposed to follow who I am, and this is who I am now. And if you don't agree, then you don't love me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:On that, I would say: \u201cDo a little bit of a thought experiment with me: \u2018What happens if you're wrong? What happens if you're wrong? What happens if these feelings that you have\u2014which I don't want to deny; I don't want to deny and shut you down, that you do have these feelings\u2014but could your feelings be wrong?\u2014or maybe, \u201cwrong\u201d might seem like a strong word for your generation\u2014what if they're off a little bit? Do you want to dedicate your entire next few years of life dedicated to this one thing that you're holding really firmly to?\u2014what if you're wrong? Could you be wrong?\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Just introducing that level of doubt into the conversation can open up the doorway, to say, \u201cHey, your feelings are going to change.\u201d That's why, even now when you look at how kids and teens are identifying, the biggest bucket that kids are identifying with is they don't want to put a label on it. They want to be creative and expansive, and have room to be able to maneuver amongst the alphabet soup of the spectrum; because they don't want to be pinned down. That's why we have to keep adding more and more letters to the acronym to accommodate an ever-increasing amount of identities.<\/p>\n<p>I was talking to a youth group a couple of months ago. A girl, who was a junior, came up. She was with her mom, and she said, \u201cA lot of my friends at lunch were asking me: \u2018How did I identify, sexually?\u2019\u201d The girl said that she got really nervous, and she didn't know what to say; so she just didn't say anything. And she said, \u201cAll my friends said, \u2018Oh, well, if you don't know, you're bisexual; you're bisexual.\u2019\u201d And she said, \u201cNow, everybody at school thinks that I'm bisexual; but I'm not. I just didn't want to say anything.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>In that moment, that captures where we're at today as a culture. We are telling kids and teens today: \u201cHey, you're making the choice. You're following your feelings.\u201d But who's telling them that?\u2014it's actually the culture around them. When I talk about modern identity as an illusion, that's the illusion. Part of it is kids and teens today think that they're being pioneers, and charting their own identity; but they're simply obeying the cultural narratives that are around them and just following those. So now, this young girl is being told, by all of her friends: \u201cYou're bisexual,\u201d and she's not\u2014that\u2019s not how she would identify.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:What has she done with that? Did her mom tell you?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Well, the mom said it's been horrible for her mental health; not surprising. She says she feels really awkward now about her friends. People are looking at her differently. We tried to have a brief conversation about\u2014 some different things that she could do to help her daughter\u2014that her daughter could also do.<\/p>\n<p>It just reminded me, in terms of like you were talking about earlier, the pressures that kids and teens are facing today, especially as it relates to gender and sex. It's something that I don't think that we had to face when we were that age.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:What would you say parents are doing that contributes to gender dysphoria\u2014or not doing\u2014anything come to your mind?\u2014like: \u201cHey, this would be helpful for a parent to understand,\u201d \u201cBe careful about this, and be careful about that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:I think, sometimes, I would say parents who may come from an older generation or more conservative background\u2014I think, sometimes, we could probably have too strict of gender stereotypes around: \u201cHere's what women do\u2026\u201d \u201cHere's what women like\u2026\u201d \u201cHere's what women wear\u2026\u201d \u201cHere's what men do\u2026\u201d \u201cHere's what men like\u2026\u201d I think, sometimes, those can be more culturally-informed rather than biblically-informed. We realize that, in Scripture, we see a vast variety of cultures. Scripture is a cross-cultural book; it reaches and touches every culture in ethnicity and background. While things might be more culturally male or female for us, that might look totally different somewhere else in another part of the world.<\/p>\n<p>I would say: \u201cA lot of times, parents I think need to reevaluate or just even evaluate their own beliefs and standards as it relates to masculinity and femininity. Simply ask, \u2018Are those biblically-informed or are those more culturally-informed?\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:One of those, when you say that, I think my generation\u2014and I don't think we say it as much now; although, some still do\u2014would say: \u201cBoys are into rough sports and trucks,\u201d and \u201cGirls are into frilly little dresses.\u201d There's a girl, like Ann, who is very athletic, going, \u201cThat's not me.\u201d This day, she might be thinking\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yeah, then I would've said, \u201cI'm a tomboy.\u201d But if I were in this generation, I'd think, \u201cOh, maybe, I am a boy.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Ann, there was a great article, probably eight or ten years ago, in The Atlantic; I think it was. It was a woman who had a tomboy. Basically, the article was saying: \u201cMy daughter's not transgender; she's just a tomboy. She just enjoys certain things that maybe, culturally, we have assigned to be more masculine or men\u2019s interests.\u201d She said, \u201cJust leave her alone; she's just living her life.\u201d I thought it was courageous, especially in our culture, for her to be able to speak up and say that.<\/p>\n<p>I think that that's an important thing to note: that those types of interests, again, don't tend to be gender specific. We just have assigned that level of [activity], like, \u201cWell, only boys do this,\u201d or \u201c\u2026girls do this.\u201d One of the things that I'll point to, even biblically, is: \u201cWhen you look at the book of Exodus, you see these people, who are artisans and craftsmen; and they're males. We typically think of people, who are more the creative\/artistic types, as either more feminine or gay, even. When you look at the Bible, some of the most creative musician-style people are men. David is a strong warrior, but he's playing music; he's writing poetry.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:The person who got assigned to build and create the tabernacle was one of the first people who was filled with the Holy Spirit of God. So he must have been such a creative.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Absolutely. So when we lay down hard-and-fast gender stereotypes\u2014I had a family in the counseling room\u2014and they were really concerned that their young daughter didn't want to wear a dress. She only wanted to be in pants. One of the things that I tried to work with parents in the counseling room, is I say, \u201cEvaluate your reaction. Do you underreact, or do you overreact?\u201d And they were more\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That\u2019s good for all of us, as parents.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:They were more in the overreaction. They were going to put their daughter in counseling; start making her wear dresses. I just said, \u201cWhat would just keeping tabs on this look like? What would it look like to ask good questions before you lay down certain standards and whatnot?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That's a good example of how we all have to do an internal heart check on ourselves, to ask ourselves, \u201cOkay, how am I approaching this? Am I going to actually cause more harm, more confusion by trying to put them into a particular box rather than just celebrating the way that God designed and created them?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:One of the things I used to say to our boys, and I say it to our grandkids too, is I'll affirm their sexuality as they're little, even before five: \u201cI'm so glad that God made you a girl; that's so interesting and fun. He has something for you, as a girl, that He's put inside of you.\u201d And the same with a boy: \u201cI am so glad that God made you, on purpose, as a boy.\u201d Is that okay to say? Can we say that?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Ann, I think that's so good. The other day, we were at dinner. One of my daughters said something about she has a lot of cousins, who are my nephews. She said, \u201cIt's just so much funner being a boy.\u201d I said, \u201cWell, why do you think that?\u201d She goes, \u201cOh, they just have so much fun\u201d; she rattled off a few examples. I said, \u201cBut it is so good that you're a girl too. Girls can have just as much fun as guys can.\u201d We all got a good laugh at it.<\/p>\n<p>I think, whenever you can positively affirm that, I think parents\u2014again, when we're talking about: \u201cHow do we help shape identity and form it?\u201d\u2014it's those little moments. It's those little moments at the dinner table; in carpool; on your way to events, where those conversations bubble up to the surface. You're planting the seed.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I remember one of our grandkids\u2014his mom was pregnant\u2014and he said, \u201cI wish I was a girl, so I could have babies.\u201d I said, \u201cOh, well, you'll be a dad someday,\u201d and \u201cYou have to have a dad who makes babies.\u201d He said, \u201cI want like 50 of them,\u201d And I said, \u201cOh, that's so interesting. I wonder if you'll have a lot of kids; and maybe, you'll do something that you're going to impact kids that God put in you. Maybe you'll be a school teacher, or a doctor, or you'll adopt a whole bunch of kids.\u201d Suddenly, instead of feeling like, \u201cOh, I can't have a baby\u201d; \u201cI could have multiple children, in God's design.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think, as parents, we're listening with those ears of speaking identity of Christ into our kids.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Yes; yes. We have to be speaking those words of life to our kids as early as we can and as often as we can. One of the struggles I think that parents have with that is the way that they envision those conversations: they're sitting down at a table with a Bible and a notebook, and their kids are across from them. If that's how you do it, great; hats off to it. But I think it's, a lot of times, in these smaller one-off conversations that are very unexpected, where you really have to rely on the power of the Spirit in that moment to fill you with wisdom, to fill you with knowledge, to fill you with discernment. When a question comes up that you don't know how to answer, to be humble enough to say, \u201cI don't know. Let me think about that; let me get back to you on that,\u201d \u201cLet me talk to your mom, because she probably has the answer.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u201cListen to the FamilyLife Today podcast\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Yes; \u201cListen to Dave and Ann Wilson, because they\u2019ve got the answers.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014\"Jonathan Holmes: this very session.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That was one of my questions: \u201cDo you think it's harder today for our kids and for parents?\u201d One of the stats in your book is: \u201cTrans has gone up, doubled in five years.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Oh, it's doubled. The rates at which you see kids and teens identifying as trans are skyrocketing. There's one big date that a lot of sociologists are tracking it back to; it's 2008, which was when the iPhone was invented.<\/p>\n<p>You kind of see all the charts tracking different things. We're seeing\u2014with sexual orientation confusion, gender dysphoria, mental health: it's kind of somewhat flatlined\u2014and then, you get to 2008; and it's sharp upward.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Really?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Yes; again, it's not that all of those problems are directly tied to kids having phones or whatnot. What it has done is it has made available to kids and teens an amount of voices and influences that, before that, I don't think that they had access to. Now, at the palm of their hand, they can be listening to a social media influencer in LA, or in London, or in Chicago, or New York. The access that kids and teens have now\u2014to so many different influential streams and voices\u2014I definitely think is a game-changer, that when we were growing up, we just didn't have that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Oh, yeah. I was thinking, \u201cA couple weeks ago was Easter; you're listening to this months later. When we recorded this\u2014and I'm preaching on Easter\u2014in one part of my sermon, I was saying some apologetics about defending that this was a true historical act. I said, \u201cHere's the thing, parents: if your son or daughter, sitting beside you, has a phone, they're hearing everything. They can look up everything I'm saying right now and hear the opposite view by very intelligent people, who are going to tell them, \u2018You're preacher\u2019s wrong.\u2019\u201d That never happened 50 years ago.<\/p>\n<p>You didn't even debate me unless you really wanted to go do your homework. Now, it\u2019s [a quick flip of the phone sound]. And by the way, I said, \u201cCheck out those sources. They're not usually very good; some of them are really good.\u201d That's the world our kids are living in. It's bombarding different thoughts about my sexuality; who I am as a boy or girl; what I should do\u2014my athletics, my academics\u2014it's crazy!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Well, it makes us want to hide; we want to hide from the world. We want to take our children and live in a commune. You're not saying to do that.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:No, absolutely not.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:What are some just practical things that we can\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Take them out of school? Take them out of\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014take away their phones, take away the TVs\u2014you're doing it right now.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Yeah, we are doing\u2014one of the first things, going back to what we said earlier\u2014just identify your own instinct towards these kind of problems: \u201cAre you an overreactor or an underreactor?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That\u2019s a good reminder.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:A lot of times\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014under [reactor].<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Yes, exactly.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014over [reactor].<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:A lot of times, I see that dynamic happen in marriage all the time. A mom and a dad will bring in their teen or bring me a counseling issue. You can see the mom and the dad aren't on the same page, which I think that's even Step One: realizing, \u201cOkay, this is actually a unity issue for us as husband and wife. We need to get on the same page. We need to listen to one another. We need to be having conversations. If we go into this conversation, with our kid and teen, on two different pages, they're going to drive a Mack truck through that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Oh, yeah; you're right.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:They're going to play; they're smart. They're smart little kids. A lot of the work first seems to be done with you. Honestly, we do a ton of work with kids and adolescents. Most of my counselors would tell you: \u201cMost of the work needs to be done with the parents.\u201d We need to do some of the work first, as parents, asking the Lord to help us.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Dave and I\/it's kind of good that we're\u2014Dave is like: \u201cEverything's great,\u201d \u201cEverything's fine. They're doing great.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:\u201cThey're fine.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I tend to overreact; but when we come together, it's a good balance.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Oh, it is a good balance.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:But if we don't come together with our kids, in the moment, you're right;\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Although, I found out\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014they'll conquer and divide.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:They will; they will.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014divide and conquer.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Jonathan, I\u2019ve found out she's usually right.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Oh, yes; yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:But I\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Stop that. It's like, \u201cOh, there was more going on there than I wanted to see or admit.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:It was good for me to rest. And you're like, \u201cGod's got them,\u201d \u201cGod's got them.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Yes, so that would be one thing: \u201cIdentify where you're at.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The second thing is: \u201cBe involved with your kids.\u201d This sounds so simple, right? Sounds so straightforward. But I think we have given up a lot of relational capital with our kids to other people\u2014to coaches, to Sunday school teachers, to school teachers, to friends, to friends\u2019 parents\u2014again, those are good people. But in Deuteronomy 6, God called us to teach and talk to our children about who the Lord is.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014\"when we lie down; when we walk on the way,\u201d\u2014all times.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Kind of start with this. Yes, at every single point in their life.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And Jonathan, what I'm seeing too\u2014and I can be guilty of this\u2014is we're not as involved, or we're not watching what our kids are doing; because we're on our own devices.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:We are; we totally are.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:It\u2019s like: \u201cI hope that show\u2019s okay that they're watching. I'm not even watching it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:That happened to us the other day. My wife and I walked in\u2014there's a TV show\u2014I did a double-take; I go, \u201cWhat are you guys watching?\u201d We're like, \u201cWe need to change the channel.\u201d And they're like, \u201cWell, we've been watching this for the past couple of weeks.\u201d I'm like, \u201cOh my goodness, you guys.\u201d So you're right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I did the same thing! I walked in, and our preschooler grandchild\u2014the mom and dad weren't in the room\u2014and there's a gay parade for this three-year-old show. What?! What is happening?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:It's everywhere. Again, it's not that we are trying to find those different things so that we can just shut off access, but so that we can engage in conversation. Now, 90 percent of the time, I don't do that; I can just say, \u201cOkay, turn that off.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But if I was in a better spot, and I had more time, what I should say in some of those moments is: \u201cOkay, why do you think we're telling you that this isn't good for you? Why do you think we're telling you that this is probably not the best thing for you to be watching or filling your mind with?\u201d\u2014to try to get them to think critically.<\/p>\n<p>That would also be another method of trying to engage our children is asking questions. I will say this: I think a lot of parents don't ask questions of their kids because they actually have to engage in conversation.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Really?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:And we don't. I think, sometimes, we get intimidated by conversation, especially with teenagers. I talk to parents all the time; and they say, \u201cMy teen doesn't want to talk. They're so intimidating to talk to. I just get one-word answers. It's not even worth it; I've just given up.\u201d I say, \u201cOh, don't give up. That's a defense mechanism for most teens; they just want to be left alone. But you can't leave them alone; you're their parents.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think, sometimes, we have to admit to our own fears or hesitations, or even sense of awkwardness that we might have with conversations. That's where I talk a lot about redeeming carpool. I'm in the car so much with my kids at practices, and their school is about 20 minutes away. It has been the best time for us. We have a no-phone rule in our car;\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Nice.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:\u2014and so we talk. We'll listen to things on the radio: we'll listen to a podcast; or we'll listen to Scripture. It's 20 minutes where they can't go anywhere; they can't leave. But it also, it feels less fraught [than if] I'm sitting across from you at a table, and I'm giving you a lecture.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah, shoulder to shoulder.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Yeah, it's just shoulder to shoulder.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Something else is going on; it's not as intimate.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:It\u2019s not intimidating. I think it just makes the conversation feel a lot more normal. And some of our best conversations have been in the car, just on carpools.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Us too: \u201cCar time,\u201d \u201cBed time.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:That is great.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Well, it's interesting\u2014when you mentioned Deuteronomy 6\u2014we wrote a parenting book, and that passage was sort of the center of it. The thing that's really interesting, even as what came to my mind when we're talking about identity, is He says in Deuteronomy 6:4 [paraphrase]: \u201cParents, basically, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind; and teach these things to your children.\u201d There's a sense that it comes from you; it's an overflow. \u201cIf you don't do it, how are you going to teach it?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I was thinking, \u201cIdentity\u201d: if we're going to try and instill God's Word and God's view of our son and daughter from His [viewpoint], you got to understand how God views you. If they're watching us\u2014because they\u2019re watching!\u2014if we're not finding our identity in Him\u2014rather than a salary; or what my boss thinks; or how well I did last week on the pickup basketball, softball game,\u201d\u2014whatever; all that stuff\u2014it's like they're watching. It's like: \u201cYou say whatever you want. If you're not living it, they're like, \u2018Yeah, you're trying to find your identity the same way I am.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:It's just different degrees, right?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:No, I mean, kids are always watching us\u2014watching us like a hawk\u2014I'll give you a simple example. My wife and I are really involved in our church. On holidays and different special Sundays, we're running here and there, doing different things. My kid\/one of my daughters said, \u201cYou guys are always so busy on Sunday.\u201d She goes, \u201cWe always have to sit by ourselves on Easter or Palm Sunday; because you and mom are out in the foyer, serving.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Again, it was a catch for me; I realized, \u201cI think I'm doing a good thing, serving; but I could also be communicating a narrative to them of: \u2018Listen, it's just about your work; it's about what you do for other people.\u2019\u201d I could miss\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You had a chapter on \u201cGood Works: Seeing Your Identity.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Oh, the \u201cGood Works\u201d chapter, I think I was trying to write it for myself. My whole identity, growing up, was just built around: \u201cBe a good person. That's how you earn favor with God\u2014is just be a good person\u2014follow all the rules.\u201d My identity was purely built on being a rule-follower. It's kind of like the older brother in Luke 15.<\/p>\n<p>I think that that\u2014again, kind of going off of the identity tangent there\u2014I think a lot of kids in Christian homes: that's a strong source of identity formation that looks good on the outside, but can be pretty sinister internally.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah. We have a friend, Jamie Winship, who wrote a book called Living Fearlessly. Of all the people I've listened to teach on identity\u2014he came to our church, years ago, and did some seminars and whatever\u2014I never heard anybody talk like this. Here's one of his sayings that I thought, \u201cMan, I want this for me, but I really want this for my sons.\u201d He said, \u201cWhen you understand who you are in Christ,\u201d\u2014and that whole theology of \u201cin Christ,\u201d I literally taught on it Sunday: \u201cIt\u2019s not Christ outside me anymore. He's actually in me, through His Holy Spirit; and now my identity is formed: \u2018I am in Christ.\u2019\u201d Jamie said, \u201cWhen you understand that\u2014you're living that\u2014you walk into any room you walk into: you control it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Now, when I first heard that, I'm like, \u201cThat sounds so arrogant.\u201d It doesn't mean you're so prideful; you control it. He's like, \u201cNo; most rooms we walk into, we're trying to win somebody's approval.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We adapt to them.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Somebody in that room's important\u2014it could be your boss; it could be a friend\u2014but somebody there, you want to win their approval. You do things and say things just to get their approval. He goes, \u201cWhen you understand who you are, you control that room: \u2018I am approved by the King of the Kings. I don't need this guy's approval. I don't need to say anything or exaggerate how good I am to get it. I've got it; so I walk in\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014\"\u2019confidence in Christ.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:When I've said this, my chest is out. I'm like\u2014and again, I'm not prideful\u2014I am confident in Christ. I don't need anybody's approval; I've already got it. \u201cSo what am I going to do?\u201d\u2014I'm going to serve. I'm going to serve and build up others. I thought, \u201cMan, if my sons walk out of our house, and that's how they walk in every room, as a parent, well, that's identity.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:And you hit the nail on the head in terms of following a modern identity formation process. What it ultimately does is it creates somebody who's so egotistical and self-involved because their identity has all been manufactured on their own, and it's based in their performance; they are the best version of whatever.<\/p>\n<p>A gospel identity is actually the key to true humility; because you realize, at the end of the day, you didn't do anything to deserve this. And that humility leads you to outward service towards others. It leads you to a humble recognition of loving God and loving other people because you realize, at the end of the day, that God pursued us while we were still sinners. That is both humbling\u2014but it's also freeing\u2014because you realize, \u201cI did nothing to deserve or earn this, and there's nothing I'm going to do to lose this or to fall away from this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:It's received, not achieved.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:\u2014not achieved. It's received and not achieved.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:That's good. Part of me wants to say to the parents listening\u2014although, maybe, there's some sons and daughters listening\u2014but I want to say, \u201cWell, you say it better; you wrote the book on it,\u201d\u2014but I want to say, \u201cYou go after your identity in Christ, and guess what? They'll catch it. They will. I mean, you got to teach it; they're going to catch it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Yes, absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I remember saying to\u2014four of our grandkids were in the car; their parents weren't in the car with us\u2014and I remember they were talking about their dad, our son. I said, \u201cWell, he is a genius.\u201d They were laughing, like, \u201cNo, he's not Nonni; he's our dad.\u201d And I'm like, \u201cNo; because in a way, when God created him, there's no one like him in the entire planet, nor has there ever been or ever will be.\u201d In a way, every single one of us\u2014when we live out who God created us to be\u2014it's kind of we're a genius in our own self. It's not that we're better. It's like we're designed by a Creator, who has never created anyone else like us in the world; that's pretty incredible.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Oh, it is incredible. And it goes\u2014again, it's so counterintuitive to the message today, which is all about: \u201cBe the most unique person you can be.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cI already am!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:\u201cYou already are! You are fearfully and wonderfully made by the Creator of the universe.\u201d Again, it's those kind of seeds that we're dropping in conversation to our kids, as early as we can; and as often as we can.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Hey, last question. I'm looking at your book here\u2014we haven't even talked about Grounded in Grace\u2014we have; I mean it's the gospel\u2014but what are these images [on the cover]? You've got a dove; you've got a crown.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:That is great question. You're probably one of the first people who has asked me that, Dave. The book designer\u2014I think when he was creating the book [cover], said that he was trying to give it a creative kids kind of artistic-type feel\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I like it.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:\u2014so all of those images are kind of trying to emulate that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Jonathan, I love how informative you always are.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Thanks.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:But also how practical. Everything that you write\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Thank you.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014I feel like is a felt-need in our world today.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Thank you.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So keep going.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:Thank you guys so much.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And how do people\/how do they find you?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:They can go to the counseling center website that I lead; it's FieldstoneCounseling.org. If you're looking for counseling for yourself, your marriage, or your children, we would love to be able to be of service to you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And by the way\u2014you know this\u2014counseling through Zoom is as good\u2014I'm sure it's better if you're in person\u2014but I've done it, and it's just like I'm there.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:It works!<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan:It definitely works. There's a lot of bad things that technology brings, but there are some good things that it brings too; absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yep. We've got his book, Grounded in Grace, in our show notes\u2014FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014go there; you can buy the book there.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Hey, thanks for watching. If you like this episode,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You better like it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014just hit that \u201cLike\u201d button.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And we'd like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the \u201cSubscribe\u201d\u2014I can't say the word, \u201csubscribe\u201d\u2014hit the \u201cSubscribe\u201d button. I don't think I can say this word!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I can subscribe.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Look at that! You say it so easily. \u201cSubscribe\u201d; there he goes!<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. 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