{"id":315518,"date":"2025-06-11T03:46:18","date_gmt":"2025-06-11T07:46:18","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/the-toxic-war-on-masculinity-part-1-with-nancy-pearcey\/"},"modified":"2025-06-17T10:42:39","modified_gmt":"2025-06-17T14:42:39","slug":"the-toxic-war-on-masculinity-part-1-with-nancy-pearcey","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-toxic-war-on-masculinity-part-1-with-nancy-pearcey\/","title":{"rendered":"The Toxic War on Masculinity Part 1 with Nancy Pearcey"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Author and professor Nancy Pearcey uncovers why the script for masculinity turned toxic\u2014and how Christianity reconciles the war between the sexes.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Author and professor Nancy Pearcey uncovers why the script for masculinity turned toxic\u2014and how Christianity reconciles the war between the sexes.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":312569,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/96dc67f2-2542-465c-b860-b2eb0147a586\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:24:15","filesize":"22.24M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2025-06-11 03:46:18","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2826,2093],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[8685],"cwp_profile":[8846],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-315518","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-men","category-women","podcast_series-the-toxic-war-on-masculinity-nancy-pearcey","cwp_profile-nancy-pearcey","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2025\/02\/image_bbee74.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/315518\/the-toxic-war-on-masculinity-part-1-with-nancy-pearcey","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/315518\/the-toxic-war-on-masculinity-part-1-with-nancy-pearcey","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"Ma1NwecOAF\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-toxic-war-on-masculinity-part-1-with-nancy-pearcey\/\">The Toxic War on Masculinity Part 1 with Nancy Pearcey<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-toxic-war-on-masculinity-part-1-with-nancy-pearcey\/embed\/#?secret=Ma1NwecOAF\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;The Toxic War on Masculinity Part 1 with Nancy Pearcey&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"Ma1NwecOAF\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["96dc67f2-2542-465c-b860-b2eb0147a586"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/96dc67f2-2542-465c-b860-b2eb0147a586\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:24:15"],"filesize":["22.24M"],"_thumbnail_id":["312569"],"show_notes":["<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.nancypearcey.com\/\">Learn more about Nancy Pearcey at her website.<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/men\/\">Get more resources about masculinity on our website<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr \/>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-06-11.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>The Toxic War on Masculinity (Part 1)<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Nancy Pearcey<\/p>\n<p>From the series:The Toxic War on Masculinity (Day 1 of 3)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:June 11, 2025<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: There\u2019s a sociologist who did a study, where he would ask young men, \u201cWhat does it mean to be a good man?\u201d They had no trouble answering that: \u201cIntegrity, honesty, sacrifice; be a protector and be a provider; be generous,\u201d and so on. Then, when he\u2019d say, \u201cBut what does it mean to be a real man?\u201d they would say, \u201cOh, no, no, no!\u2014a real man; that\u2019s completely different.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the<\/p>\n<p>relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And I'm Ann Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019ve spent 33 seasons in an NFL locker room. I\u2019ve never mentioned that on FamilyLife before, have I? [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I don\u2019t think you have.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But I was the Detroit Lions chaplain. I was around a lot of men, young men. And then, I coached high school football for 13, I think, seasons; so I was around a lot of high school men.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you\u2019ve coached a lot of teams, over the years, of guys. We had three boys, so you coached a lot of their teams as well.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; and then, pastoring a church with thousands of men. One of the questions I would often ask\u2014either a high school boy, or an NFL player, or just a guy at our church\u2014was: \u201cTell me what a \u2018real man\u2019 is,\u201d \u201cTell me what a godly man is,\u201d \u201cWhat is a man?\u201d I am not kidding; I don\u2019t think I ever got a clear answer. There was confusion. It was: \u201cWell, maybe it\u2019s\u2026\u201d There was never really any clarity. It was just, \u201cWell, maybe it's...\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And then, I would look at\u2014especially high school boys\u2014and say: \u201cWhen do you become a man?\u201d They had no idea! \u201cWhen you get your driver\u2019s license?\u201d \u201cWhen you\u2026?\u201d Nobody knew. I think it\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Do you feel like you had a good answer for that?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I didn\u2019t when I was growing up.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: As I became a husband, you know, I went on a journey\u2014basically, to Scripture\u2014to say, \u201cWhat does God say a man is?\u201d\u2014\"and a woman?\u201d Yes, I think I had a clear answer; but I don\u2019t think our culture\u2014and even in the church\u2014I don\u2019t think we know.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I think we\u2019re living in different days, even than when you were coaching.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What does that mean?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I think that there are just a lot of different views now of what people would say a real man [is] \u2014and especially, [who] a man of God is\u2014it\u2019s not always looked at in a positive way.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So today is going to be really fun and interesting.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. We have a woman in the studio, who\u2019s going to talk to us about masculinity. We have Nancy Pearcey back on FamilyLife Today. I don\u2019t know how many years it\u2019s been since you\u2019ve been here, but we are glad to have you back.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: I think it was for my earlier book, Love Thy Body.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; and this book: The Toxic War on Masculinity: How Christianity Reconciles the Sexes. I would love to be a student in your class. You have young men and women\u2014college kids\u2014in there every day; and I\u2019m just sitting here, thinking, \u201cI would love to sit under your teaching!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Me too. [For] our listeners, this is a treat. She\u2019s really wise, really thoughtful. And you\u2019ve talked to a lot of people; you\u2019ve read a lot; you\u2019ve studied the Scriptures a lot. I\u2019m kind of excited that we get to talk about this topic, because I think there is a lot of confusion.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy, do you think there is?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, let me ask you this\u2014because I don\u2019t know a lot of the backstory\u2014\u201cWhat\u2019s the \u2018former agnostic\u2019?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Oh! My personal story, which I do love to tell, by the way. I\u2019ve started using it now in all of my speaking; because I realize, the older I get, the more thankful I am that God got ahold of me! So I\u2019ve been using my story a lot more.<\/p>\n<p>I was raised in a Christian home; but if you\u2019ve ever been in an ethnic home\u2014and mine was Scandinavian\u2014all Scandinavians are Lutheran, because it was a state church. In other words, they rely a lot on ethnicity to hold you; there\u2019s not a lot of strong personal commitment. So, when I was in high school, I started asking questions.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014because you\u2019re a thinker!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: And I was going to a public school, right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: All my textbooks were secular; all my teachers were secular. And I just started asking, \u201cHow do we know it\u2019s true?\u201d That was it: \u201cHow do we know Christianity is true?\u201d And nobody in my life could answer that; none of the adults in my life could answer that. I talked to a Christian college professor, and I asked him, point blank, \u201cWhy are you a Christian?\u201d And he said, \u201cWorks for me!\u201d [Laughter] \u201cThat\u2019s it?\u201d; you know.<\/p>\n<p>I had a chance to talk to a seminary dean, and I thought I would get a more substantial answer from him.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So you\u2019re really looking for answers.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: I was asking a lot of questions.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes; I didn\u2019t just slide, you know? A lot of people sort of slide away from their Christian background.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: No, when I gave up my Christian faith, I immediately realized that, if there was no God, there was no meaning to life; there\u2019s no foundation for ethics: \u201cThis is true for me; true for you.\u201d There is no purpose to life; we\u2019re just on a rock flying through empty space. I realized there\u2019s not even a foundation for knowledge in the sense that, if all I have is my puny brain in the vast scope of time and space, what makes me think I could have some kind of universal absolute truth?\u2014ridiculous! At 16, it struck me that that was ridiculous. So I became a relativist, and a skeptic, and a determinist. I absorbed all of these secular -isms.<\/p>\n<p>By the time I was in college, I went back to Europe. We had lived in Europe when I was a child, and I really loved it; so I saved my money all through high school\u2014from playing in the local symphony, by the way\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Ahh!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014that was my job,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014playing the violin.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014playing the violin so that I could go back to Europe. And when I was in Europe the second time, that\u2019s when I sort of stumbled across L\u2019Abri, the ministry of Francis Schaeffer, which is an apologetics ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right, right.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: That\u2019s what he was known for. The term \u201ccultural apologetics\u201d was coined to describe what he did, because he didn\u2019t just deal with abstract arguments in the logical ether. He looked at ideas as they percolate down through a culture: through art, literature, music, and so on.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s right up your alley!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: That spoke to me!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes, I would not have been drawn in by any other form of apologetics.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: At first, I left\u2014I was at L\u2019Abri twice\u2014because the first time, it was so attractive. I had never seen such an attractive form of Christianity. Not only was it intellectually engaging, but culturally\u2014you know, the arts\u2014and on top of all that, this was 1971; and everyone there was a Hippie. [Laughter] But that was a serious consideration, in the sense that, at that time, nobody was reaching across that cultural divide and reaching out to these disaffected young people. I thought, \u201cWho are these Christians?! They can even talk to Hippies!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: But because it was so appealing, I was afraid I might be drawn in emotionally, and I didn\u2019t\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014you didn\u2019t want that!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014I didn\u2019t want to do that. Because Christianity let me down once already, you know? So I wasn\u2019t going to go back lightly.<\/p>\n<p>I stayed a month and studied; [then] left L\u2019Abri and went home; but because of L\u2019Abri, I discovered there was such a thing as apologetics. I discovered C.S. Lewis. Not only Schaeffer, but Lewis, Chesterton, and so on. Just through my own reading, I eventually decided: \u201cOkay, I am intellectually convinced: \u2018It\u2019s true. Now, where do I find Christians?\u2019\u201d I wasn\u2019t in a church or anything. Well, I knew some back at L\u2019Abri! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>A year and a half later, I went back to L\u2019Abri; and that\u2019s where I really got grounded in understanding Christian worldview, apologetics, and so on. It\u2019s shaped all of my writings since then. Everything I do: I want to help young people, who are having the same questions that I had when I was that age.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What a great story! Thanks for sharing that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; well, let\u2019s talk about The Toxic War on Masculinity. You begin it with a story of your dad. I\u2019m guessing this has a foundation of why you want to study this, because it\u2019s full! I can\u2019t wait to get into the content; but tell us about your dad, I guess.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes, my father was physically abusive.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Did you have any siblings?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes, there are six kids in the family.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh! So where did you fall in line?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: I was third.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And this was going on with all your siblings?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: All except the last one.<\/p>\n<p>I used to work for Prison Fellowship. Do you know that ministry?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow! Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: One thing we knew was: even violent people mellow over time. You know, even violent criminals mellow over time; so my dad did mellow by the sixth kid.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: The sixth kid is the only one who doesn\u2019t have memories of being beaten, but the rest of us do.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What about your mom?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: No; not that he was\u2014he was pretty verbally abusive to her\u2014he didn\u2019t respect her at all. And we didn\u2019t either! I mean, we took our cues from him, right?\u2014you do. He treats her like a dishrag, so we did as well.<\/p>\n<p>Then, she never stood up for us\u2014this is our complaint with our mom\u2014she never stood up for us. But looking back, as an adult, I don\u2019t blame her; I wouldn\u2019t stand up to that guy either!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He was probably scary. He was probably a scary dad.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Oh! He was very scary.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Fear! I mean, when I became a Christian\u2014you know, and started going through all the emotional healing of this\u2014well, let me give you the emotional healing side.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: In my book, Toxic War on Masculinity, I do talk about when the healing started; because I had one person say, \u201cI opened your book, and I read your story. I thought, \u2018Oh, no! This is going to be some angry feminist!\u2019 And then, I got to the end, and I realized, \u2018No, it\u2019s a story of healing!\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>At L\u2019Abri was a psychiatric social worker, who agreed to be on staff because she realized that a lot of people\u2019s problems with Christianity were not just intellectual.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: The apologetics wasn\u2019t the only thing; but it also is often emotional, especially conflict with your parents and so on. Her name was Sheila Bird, and we called her \u201cBirdie.\u201d The interesting thing is: she saw my dad. The reason I ended up at L\u2019Abri was because my father was\u2014I\u2019m trying to keep this short!\u2014my father was teaching in Turkey at the Middle East Technical University. It was right before the military coup, and there was a lot of violence happening, especially against Westerners: car bombings, package bombings.<\/p>\n<p>They told my dad, \u201cYou need to get out; it\u2019s too dangerous.\u201d He was driving across Europe to catch the cheap Luxemburg flights. A Christian friend told him, \u201cIf you\u2019re driving through Switzerland, you\u2019ve got to stop at this place called L\u2019Abri!\u201d [Laughter] He wrote to me in Germany\u2014I was in Germany\u2014and he says, \u201cCome on down and see us.\u201d People will sometimes ask me, \u201cWhy would you go to a Christian ministry if you were not a Christian?\u201d Well, I didn\u2019t go to a Christian ministry. I went to see my parents, because I wasn\u2019t going to see them again; they were going back to the States. I went to L\u2019Abri to see my parents, not to go to a Christian ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Interesting! Let me ask you, at that time, what were your thoughts about your dad\/your father?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Oh, I had totally suppressed it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: This was interesting; I had so suppressed it, because I thought, \u201cMy childhood was so unhappy, that I\u2019m going to start my life over.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So you just buried it?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: I totally buried it! I thought, \u201cI\u2019m going to recreate myself from scratch.\u201d I thought you could do that! [Laughter] This is why it was so important that God let me be at a place, where there was a psychiatric social worker! Not only that, but at L\u2019Abri, you know, Francis Schaeffer used to have Saturday night discussions. My family\u2014my parents and a couple siblings\u2014were there. Birdie saw my father\u2014and she told me when I went to see her\u2014she said, \u201cI looked at your father, and I thought, \u2018Here is a man who suppresses everyone around him.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: She could see it! In hindsight, I might not have even talked about it. I had suppressed it so carefully, but she knew to ask!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: She knew to ask.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: She knew to ask about my family; about my father! She also noticed, by the way, that our family is totally disconnected. There was no coherence; there were no emotional bonds among anyone in our family.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Were you surprised when she said that to you?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: [Laughing] Well, not entirely; because if you looked at my dad, [you] would agree with her.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So it was obvious.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes! Yes, I think it was. I mean, he had these steely blue eyes that looked like: \u201cI\u2019m a concentration camp guard.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, what did the healing look like?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: So Birdie\/she had to persuade me, \u201cYou can\u2019t just walk away from your past. You do have to work through this stuff with your father.\u201d My sister, by the way, who was also not a Christian, also stayed with me at L\u2019Abri at the time, my older sister. She had not suppressed it; she was a little older. We sat on the side of the Alps\u2014because L\u2019Abri is in the Swiss Alps\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014and she would say: \u201cDo you remember when Dad used to do this?\u201d \u201cDo you remember when Dad used to do that?\u201d I said, \u201cOf course, I do!\u201d But I had so suppressed it, that I wasn\u2019t consciously thinking of it anymore; but \u201cOf course, I do!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: So that was helpful, too\u2014between my sister and Birdie, you know, we went back through my past\u2014and basically, it\u2019s the healing power of His love, experiencing love from Birdie that I had never experienced before; being able to talk openly about these things, where I expected to be rejected, right? You don\u2019t talk to people about your deepest pain. You don\u2019t expect people to keep loving and accepting you on that level, but she did. That was it! When I left L\u2019Abri, my model of God was Birdie.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Ahh.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: She would ask her gentle, probing questions; and I would hear God asking these gentle, probing questions, getting deeper and deeper. The emotional healing really started at L\u2019Abri: learning to experience God\u2019s love, because God\u2019s love is ultimate healing power\u2014to have such a transformative relationship with God\u2014that God\u2019s love actually changes you.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s so beautiful. I\u2019m wondering: so often they\u2019ll say your view of God is, many times, tainted by your view of your father.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014for good or bad.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Right; did you have that experience?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Oh, yes; but Birdie solved that in a lot of ways.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: I mean, having one person step in and be different.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, that\u2019s true.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s so encouraging.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: It made a big difference.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Now, as you think back on that in regard to what you write now about masculinity, was your view of masculinity defined by your dad?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Well, as you can imagine, I became a raging feminist! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014because of your dad?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Do you think\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Oh, yes. I think so.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014do you think he was \u201ctoxic\u201d? I put quotation marks around that word.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Well, his behavior in the home was definitely toxic.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: So I did become very much a feminist.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: You know, I was always reading some feminist book. I read all the major, ground-breaking feminists from Betty Friedan to Simone de Beauvoir and Kate Millett. I read them all.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014because?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Because, whenever they talked about how horrible men were, I thought, \u201cWell, yes!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You agreed!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Definitely! It affected my view of men, even though the healing in my relationship with God was very real.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Make sure you\u2019ve got that part.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: But my view of men was very tainted, definitely. I thought\u2014every feminist book I read\u2014I thought was better than the last one.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: I always had a feminist book at my bedside; always.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Let me ask you: you\u2019ve been married for\/have you been married 50 years?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Almost!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes. So how did that affect your marriage? Did you view your husband in a negative kind of way?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: You would think I would; but I don\u2019t think so, because I'm very relational. I have very deep personal relationships.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014which was helpful for your marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, it\u2019s interesting: you know, as you talk about your background\u2014as I read through The Toxic War on Masculinity\u2014and again, there\u2019s so much in there; I don\u2019t even know where to start! There are so many things that you walk through with the history of masculinity in our culture. I put the book down, thinking you are very pro-man\/very pro-masculinity.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Hearing that background: \u201cWow; this has been quite a journey.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014a transformation.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You end up, at the end of the book, going, \u201cMen are good.\u201d Do you know what I mean?\u2014it\u2019s not a book, ripping on men\u2014it\u2019s: \u201cHere\u2019s the journey men have gone through,\u201d and \u201cHere\u2019s what real masculinity looks like.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014in a beautiful way.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And as a man, I\u2019m like, \u201cYes!\u201d I want to hand this to everybody, and say, \u201cThis is a godly perspective on manhood.\u201d The journey that you went on is very interesting.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Oh, thank you so much! I\u2019m glad that\u2019s what comes through, because I certainly did try to make it positive toward men.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Even when I dealt with some of the difficulties that men have in our culture\u2014and even when I dealt, at the end, with abusive marriages and so on\u2014I tried to always keep it positive. I\u2019m glad that\u2019s what\u2019s coming through; because, you know, men don\u2019t respond well to being accused of being toxic. [Laughter] Who would?!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Here\u2019s what I find really effective. There\u2019s a sociologist, who did a study; and he ends up saying there\u2019s, in our culture, two competing scripts for manhood. He\u2019s a very well-known sociologist; so he speaks around the world, in countries around the world. He began to use that as his testing ground. He would ask young men\u2014\u201cWhat does it mean to be a good man? You know, if you\u2019re at a funeral, and in the eulogy, somebody says, \u2018He was a good man,\u2019 what does that mean?\u201d They had no trouble answering that. Everyone around the world said: \u201cIntegrity, honesty, sacrifice. Help out the little guy,\u201d\u2014I kind of like that one: \u201cHelp out the little guy,\u201d\u2014\u201cBe a protector, and be a provider; be generous,\u201d and so on.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is worldwide?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Worldwide! And by the way, he would say, \u201cWhere did you learn that?\u201d\u2014you know, integrity and sacrifice. They would say, \u201cWell, it\u2019s just in the air we breathe.\u201d And in the Western countries, they would say, \u201cIt\u2019s our Judeo-Christian heritage.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Then, when he\u2019d say, \u201cBut what does it mean to be a real man?\u201d they would say, \u201cOh, no, no, no! A real man\u2014that\u2019s completely different\u2014be tough; be strong; never show weakness; win at all costs! Suck it up; be competitive; get rich!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The real tension, I think, today is not between men and women so much as within men\u2019s own heads between these two competing scripts. As our culture has become more secular, the good man ideal is fading; it\u2019s losing its hold on men\u2019s hearts. What\u2019s left is more the real man, which is what people mean when they say \u201ctoxic.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: They mean the real man as entitlement, power, overdominance, and so on.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Is that why you wanted to write about it and study it?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: No, no; that was one of the sociologists I read when I was involved in it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: That\u2019s not when I first got started.<\/p>\n<p>Do you know when I first got started? I will tell you! There were two reasons. One is\u2014I did have to ask, \u201cWhere is this coming from?\u201d\u2014because the hostility against men is so extreme today, even in mainstream publications. I read a Washington Post article titled, \u201cWhy Can\u2019t We Hate Men?\u201d What? This is not some fringe feminist publication!\u2014it\u2019s the Washington Post!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u201cWhy Can\u2019t We Hate Men?\u201d You can buy t-shirts that say, \u201cSo Many Men, So Little Ammunition.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; I mean, you just set something up; and I\u2019ll end with this\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, that\u2019s a cliffhanger right there! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: At the church I helped lead for 30 years, we had a men\u2019s retreat. Guess what we called it. [Laughter] We called it \u201cMan Up!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Oh.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s really interesting; we probably did that for seven, eight, or ten years. A couple thousand men would come away to this camp. My youngest son came on our staff; and one of his first years there, he said, \u201cDad! That\u2019s a really bad name for a men\u2019s retreat.\u201d [Laughter] It\u2019s interesting, because you just sort of articulated what he tried to say to me. I looked at him and said, \u201cWhat are you talking about?! Nike uses that phrase!\u2014\u2018Man Up!\u2019 Let\u2019s go away and let\u2019s \u2018man up\u2019 and be men.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>He said, \u201cThat is what is killing us as men. We\u2019re being told to \u2018man up,\u2019 and we think that means be toxic and macho; don\u2019t cry.\u201d He said, \u201cThat is not going to reach my generation; we are repelling against that. A man shouldn\u2019t man up; in fact, a man can\u2019t man up!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: A man should lay down his life.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; and he was trying to get at: \u201cWe are nothing without Christ. And you\u2019re saying, \u2018Man up, and you can do this without Jesus!\u2019 We should be saying, \u2018No, I need Jesus.\u2019 It should be something more tender and sensitive.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>At first, I looked at him and said, \u201cWhat are you talking about?!\u201d Then, as I thought about it, I [realized], \u201cHe is exactly right.\u201d And it\u2019s what you\u2019ve just read; that\u2019s the wrong phrase. And that\u2019s something my generation\u2014and you know this generation a little bit\u2014we\u2019ve grown up with that as the vision, and it\u2019s the wrong vision.<\/p>\n<p>You get into that in the book. In fact, tomorrow, we\u2019ve got to talk about: \u201cOkay, if that\u2019s not the right vision, what is?\u201d I can\u2019t wait for our listeners to hear the section in your book about men who go to church.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That was inspiring to me, and that\u2019s tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: This is FamilyLife Today. We're Dave and Ann Wilson. And man, that was a<\/p>\n<p>great conversation with Nancy about a topic that I'm a little passionate about.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I love that you're passionate about it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Everybody is.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I don\u2019t know if everybody is.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: They should be.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, they could be passionate one way or the other. But Nancy is pretty brilliant in<\/p>\n<p>how she writes this book. She communicates about this topic, and I think it's really<\/p>\n<p>necessary to talk about it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What I mean\u2014[by] \u201cEverybody's passionate about it,\u201d\u2014I think everybody is<\/p>\n<p>talking about the role of men\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yeah, me too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014in our culture, not just in the church; everywhere\u2014and the role of women. I<\/p>\n<p>think there's so much confusion; there's not clarity. So when she talks about the toxic<\/p>\n<p>war on masculinity, which is the title of her book, it's a conversation everybody's having.<\/p>\n<p>I mean, think about us, as parents\u2014we raised three boys\u2014that's a conversation every<\/p>\n<p>single day in our life.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And we have four grandsons. I feel the pressures of the culture. Basically, it feels<\/p>\n<p>sometimes like our culture is silencing these great men. And also, it feels, at times, like<\/p>\n<p>our grandsons aren't given these great role models to follow; and that's disconcerting.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, our grandsons have a great role model;\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yeah, they do: you and Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014it\u2019s called me.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And their dad\u2019s pretty great.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, you got Jesus in there too.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yeah, Jesus is the best one.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But I mean, it is obviously true; we just spent the last 20\/30 minutes talking about<\/p>\n<p>it. Our boys and our men need a vision of godly manhood. Nancy's sort of getting in<\/p>\n<p>there: \u201cThere's this masculinity that can be toxic. We need a clear vision.\u201d And she gave<\/p>\n<p>us one. I would tell you: go get the book\u2014it's really worth a read\u2014it's really a study.<\/p>\n<p>We've got Nancy's book in our FamilyLife shop; you can get the link in our show notes.<\/p>\n<p>Just go to FamilyLifeToday.com; click on the link; go to the shop; buy her book.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And if you know anyone who needs to hear a conversation like this one, we'd<\/p>\n<p>love it if you'd tell them about this station. And you can share today's specific<\/p>\n<p>conversation from wherever you get your podcasts. And also, leave a review; leave a<\/p>\n<p>comment. And while you're there, just a simple way that you can help more people<\/p>\n<p>discover God's plan for families is by leaving a rating. Search FamilyLife Today,<\/p>\n<p>wherever you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife.com<\/p>\n"],"_edit_lock":["1750171457:47000"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_cefab17f7152789c120b52ec31e9b7ba9b490418":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" \/]"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_atts_cefab17f7152789c120b52ec31e9b7ba9b490418":["a:17:{s:2:\"to\";s:29:\"margaret.coyle@familylife.com\";s:7:\"subject\";s:84:\"[FamilyLife - A Cru Ministry] The Toxic War on Masculinity Part 1 with Nancy Pearcey\";s:12:\"show_subject\";s:2:\"no\";s:6:\"widget\";i:0;s:14:\"block_template\";N;s:19:\"block_template_part\";N;s:2:\"id\";i:315518;s:18:\"submit_button_text\";s:6:\"Submit\";s:14:\"customThankyou\";s:0:\"\";s:21:\"customThankyouHeading\";s:26:\"Your message has been sent\";s:21:\"customThankyouMessage\";s:30:\"Thank you for 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and professor Nancy Pearcey uncovers why the script for masculinity turned toxic\u2014and how Christianity reconciles the war between the sexes.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.nancypearcey.com\/\">Learn more about Nancy Pearcey at her website.<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/men\/\">Get more resources about masculinity on our website<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr \/>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-06-11.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>The Toxic War on Masculinity (Part 1)<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Nancy Pearcey<\/p>\n<p>From the series:The Toxic War on Masculinity (Day 1 of 3)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:June 11, 2025<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: There\u2019s a sociologist who did a study, where he would ask young men, \u201cWhat does it mean to be a good man?\u201d They had no trouble answering that: \u201cIntegrity, honesty, sacrifice; be a protector and be a provider; be generous,\u201d and so on. Then, when he\u2019d say, \u201cBut what does it mean to be a real man?\u201d they would say, \u201cOh, no, no, no!\u2014a real man; that\u2019s completely different.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the<\/p>\n<p>relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And I'm Ann Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019ve spent 33 seasons in an NFL locker room. I\u2019ve never mentioned that on FamilyLife before, have I? [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I don\u2019t think you have.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But I was the Detroit Lions chaplain. I was around a lot of men, young men. And then, I coached high school football for 13, I think, seasons; so I was around a lot of high school men.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you\u2019ve coached a lot of teams, over the years, of guys. We had three boys, so you coached a lot of their teams as well.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; and then, pastoring a church with thousands of men. One of the questions I would often ask\u2014either a high school boy, or an NFL player, or just a guy at our church\u2014was: \u201cTell me what a \u2018real man\u2019 is,\u201d \u201cTell me what a godly man is,\u201d \u201cWhat is a man?\u201d I am not kidding; I don\u2019t think I ever got a clear answer. There was confusion. It was: \u201cWell, maybe it\u2019s\u2026\u201d There was never really any clarity. It was just, \u201cWell, maybe it's...\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And then, I would look at\u2014especially high school boys\u2014and say: \u201cWhen do you become a man?\u201d They had no idea! \u201cWhen you get your driver\u2019s license?\u201d \u201cWhen you\u2026?\u201d Nobody knew. I think it\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Do you feel like you had a good answer for that?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I didn\u2019t when I was growing up.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: As I became a husband, you know, I went on a journey\u2014basically, to Scripture\u2014to say, \u201cWhat does God say a man is?\u201d\u2014\"and a woman?\u201d Yes, I think I had a clear answer; but I don\u2019t think our culture\u2014and even in the church\u2014I don\u2019t think we know.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I think we\u2019re living in different days, even than when you were coaching.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What does that mean?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I think that there are just a lot of different views now of what people would say a real man [is] \u2014and especially, [who] a man of God is\u2014it\u2019s not always looked at in a positive way.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So today is going to be really fun and interesting.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. We have a woman in the studio, who\u2019s going to talk to us about masculinity. We have Nancy Pearcey back on FamilyLife Today. I don\u2019t know how many years it\u2019s been since you\u2019ve been here, but we are glad to have you back.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: I think it was for my earlier book, Love Thy Body.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; and this book: The Toxic War on Masculinity: How Christianity Reconciles the Sexes. I would love to be a student in your class. You have young men and women\u2014college kids\u2014in there every day; and I\u2019m just sitting here, thinking, \u201cI would love to sit under your teaching!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Me too. [For] our listeners, this is a treat. She\u2019s really wise, really thoughtful. And you\u2019ve talked to a lot of people; you\u2019ve read a lot; you\u2019ve studied the Scriptures a lot. I\u2019m kind of excited that we get to talk about this topic, because I think there is a lot of confusion.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy, do you think there is?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, let me ask you this\u2014because I don\u2019t know a lot of the backstory\u2014\u201cWhat\u2019s the \u2018former agnostic\u2019?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Oh! My personal story, which I do love to tell, by the way. I\u2019ve started using it now in all of my speaking; because I realize, the older I get, the more thankful I am that God got ahold of me! So I\u2019ve been using my story a lot more.<\/p>\n<p>I was raised in a Christian home; but if you\u2019ve ever been in an ethnic home\u2014and mine was Scandinavian\u2014all Scandinavians are Lutheran, because it was a state church. In other words, they rely a lot on ethnicity to hold you; there\u2019s not a lot of strong personal commitment. So, when I was in high school, I started asking questions.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014because you\u2019re a thinker!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: And I was going to a public school, right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: All my textbooks were secular; all my teachers were secular. And I just started asking, \u201cHow do we know it\u2019s true?\u201d That was it: \u201cHow do we know Christianity is true?\u201d And nobody in my life could answer that; none of the adults in my life could answer that. I talked to a Christian college professor, and I asked him, point blank, \u201cWhy are you a Christian?\u201d And he said, \u201cWorks for me!\u201d [Laughter] \u201cThat\u2019s it?\u201d; you know.<\/p>\n<p>I had a chance to talk to a seminary dean, and I thought I would get a more substantial answer from him.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So you\u2019re really looking for answers.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: I was asking a lot of questions.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes; I didn\u2019t just slide, you know? A lot of people sort of slide away from their Christian background.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: No, when I gave up my Christian faith, I immediately realized that, if there was no God, there was no meaning to life; there\u2019s no foundation for ethics: \u201cThis is true for me; true for you.\u201d There is no purpose to life; we\u2019re just on a rock flying through empty space. I realized there\u2019s not even a foundation for knowledge in the sense that, if all I have is my puny brain in the vast scope of time and space, what makes me think I could have some kind of universal absolute truth?\u2014ridiculous! At 16, it struck me that that was ridiculous. So I became a relativist, and a skeptic, and a determinist. I absorbed all of these secular -isms.<\/p>\n<p>By the time I was in college, I went back to Europe. We had lived in Europe when I was a child, and I really loved it; so I saved my money all through high school\u2014from playing in the local symphony, by the way\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Ahh!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014that was my job,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014playing the violin.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014playing the violin so that I could go back to Europe. And when I was in Europe the second time, that\u2019s when I sort of stumbled across L\u2019Abri, the ministry of Francis Schaeffer, which is an apologetics ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right, right.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: That\u2019s what he was known for. The term \u201ccultural apologetics\u201d was coined to describe what he did, because he didn\u2019t just deal with abstract arguments in the logical ether. He looked at ideas as they percolate down through a culture: through art, literature, music, and so on.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s right up your alley!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: That spoke to me!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes, I would not have been drawn in by any other form of apologetics.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: At first, I left\u2014I was at L\u2019Abri twice\u2014because the first time, it was so attractive. I had never seen such an attractive form of Christianity. Not only was it intellectually engaging, but culturally\u2014you know, the arts\u2014and on top of all that, this was 1971; and everyone there was a Hippie. [Laughter] But that was a serious consideration, in the sense that, at that time, nobody was reaching across that cultural divide and reaching out to these disaffected young people. I thought, \u201cWho are these Christians?! They can even talk to Hippies!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: But because it was so appealing, I was afraid I might be drawn in emotionally, and I didn\u2019t\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014you didn\u2019t want that!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014I didn\u2019t want to do that. Because Christianity let me down once already, you know? So I wasn\u2019t going to go back lightly.<\/p>\n<p>I stayed a month and studied; [then] left L\u2019Abri and went home; but because of L\u2019Abri, I discovered there was such a thing as apologetics. I discovered C.S. Lewis. Not only Schaeffer, but Lewis, Chesterton, and so on. Just through my own reading, I eventually decided: \u201cOkay, I am intellectually convinced: \u2018It\u2019s true. Now, where do I find Christians?\u2019\u201d I wasn\u2019t in a church or anything. Well, I knew some back at L\u2019Abri! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>A year and a half later, I went back to L\u2019Abri; and that\u2019s where I really got grounded in understanding Christian worldview, apologetics, and so on. It\u2019s shaped all of my writings since then. Everything I do: I want to help young people, who are having the same questions that I had when I was that age.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What a great story! Thanks for sharing that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; well, let\u2019s talk about The Toxic War on Masculinity. You begin it with a story of your dad. I\u2019m guessing this has a foundation of why you want to study this, because it\u2019s full! I can\u2019t wait to get into the content; but tell us about your dad, I guess.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes, my father was physically abusive.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Did you have any siblings?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes, there are six kids in the family.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh! So where did you fall in line?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: I was third.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And this was going on with all your siblings?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: All except the last one.<\/p>\n<p>I used to work for Prison Fellowship. Do you know that ministry?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow! Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: One thing we knew was: even violent people mellow over time. You know, even violent criminals mellow over time; so my dad did mellow by the sixth kid.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: The sixth kid is the only one who doesn\u2019t have memories of being beaten, but the rest of us do.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What about your mom?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: No; not that he was\u2014he was pretty verbally abusive to her\u2014he didn\u2019t respect her at all. And we didn\u2019t either! I mean, we took our cues from him, right?\u2014you do. He treats her like a dishrag, so we did as well.<\/p>\n<p>Then, she never stood up for us\u2014this is our complaint with our mom\u2014she never stood up for us. But looking back, as an adult, I don\u2019t blame her; I wouldn\u2019t stand up to that guy either!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He was probably scary. He was probably a scary dad.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Oh! He was very scary.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Fear! I mean, when I became a Christian\u2014you know, and started going through all the emotional healing of this\u2014well, let me give you the emotional healing side.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: In my book, Toxic War on Masculinity, I do talk about when the healing started; because I had one person say, \u201cI opened your book, and I read your story. I thought, \u2018Oh, no! This is going to be some angry feminist!\u2019 And then, I got to the end, and I realized, \u2018No, it\u2019s a story of healing!\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>At L\u2019Abri was a psychiatric social worker, who agreed to be on staff because she realized that a lot of people\u2019s problems with Christianity were not just intellectual.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: The apologetics wasn\u2019t the only thing; but it also is often emotional, especially conflict with your parents and so on. Her name was Sheila Bird, and we called her \u201cBirdie.\u201d The interesting thing is: she saw my dad. The reason I ended up at L\u2019Abri was because my father was\u2014I\u2019m trying to keep this short!\u2014my father was teaching in Turkey at the Middle East Technical University. It was right before the military coup, and there was a lot of violence happening, especially against Westerners: car bombings, package bombings.<\/p>\n<p>They told my dad, \u201cYou need to get out; it\u2019s too dangerous.\u201d He was driving across Europe to catch the cheap Luxemburg flights. A Christian friend told him, \u201cIf you\u2019re driving through Switzerland, you\u2019ve got to stop at this place called L\u2019Abri!\u201d [Laughter] He wrote to me in Germany\u2014I was in Germany\u2014and he says, \u201cCome on down and see us.\u201d People will sometimes ask me, \u201cWhy would you go to a Christian ministry if you were not a Christian?\u201d Well, I didn\u2019t go to a Christian ministry. I went to see my parents, because I wasn\u2019t going to see them again; they were going back to the States. I went to L\u2019Abri to see my parents, not to go to a Christian ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Interesting! Let me ask you, at that time, what were your thoughts about your dad\/your father?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Oh, I had totally suppressed it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: This was interesting; I had so suppressed it, because I thought, \u201cMy childhood was so unhappy, that I\u2019m going to start my life over.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So you just buried it?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: I totally buried it! I thought, \u201cI\u2019m going to recreate myself from scratch.\u201d I thought you could do that! [Laughter] This is why it was so important that God let me be at a place, where there was a psychiatric social worker! Not only that, but at L\u2019Abri, you know, Francis Schaeffer used to have Saturday night discussions. My family\u2014my parents and a couple siblings\u2014were there. Birdie saw my father\u2014and she told me when I went to see her\u2014she said, \u201cI looked at your father, and I thought, \u2018Here is a man who suppresses everyone around him.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: She could see it! In hindsight, I might not have even talked about it. I had suppressed it so carefully, but she knew to ask!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: She knew to ask.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: She knew to ask about my family; about my father! She also noticed, by the way, that our family is totally disconnected. There was no coherence; there were no emotional bonds among anyone in our family.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Were you surprised when she said that to you?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: [Laughing] Well, not entirely; because if you looked at my dad, [you] would agree with her.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So it was obvious.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes! Yes, I think it was. I mean, he had these steely blue eyes that looked like: \u201cI\u2019m a concentration camp guard.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, what did the healing look like?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: So Birdie\/she had to persuade me, \u201cYou can\u2019t just walk away from your past. You do have to work through this stuff with your father.\u201d My sister, by the way, who was also not a Christian, also stayed with me at L\u2019Abri at the time, my older sister. She had not suppressed it; she was a little older. We sat on the side of the Alps\u2014because L\u2019Abri is in the Swiss Alps\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014and she would say: \u201cDo you remember when Dad used to do this?\u201d \u201cDo you remember when Dad used to do that?\u201d I said, \u201cOf course, I do!\u201d But I had so suppressed it, that I wasn\u2019t consciously thinking of it anymore; but \u201cOf course, I do!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: So that was helpful, too\u2014between my sister and Birdie, you know, we went back through my past\u2014and basically, it\u2019s the healing power of His love, experiencing love from Birdie that I had never experienced before; being able to talk openly about these things, where I expected to be rejected, right? You don\u2019t talk to people about your deepest pain. You don\u2019t expect people to keep loving and accepting you on that level, but she did. That was it! When I left L\u2019Abri, my model of God was Birdie.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Ahh.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: She would ask her gentle, probing questions; and I would hear God asking these gentle, probing questions, getting deeper and deeper. The emotional healing really started at L\u2019Abri: learning to experience God\u2019s love, because God\u2019s love is ultimate healing power\u2014to have such a transformative relationship with God\u2014that God\u2019s love actually changes you.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s so beautiful. I\u2019m wondering: so often they\u2019ll say your view of God is, many times, tainted by your view of your father.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014for good or bad.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Right; did you have that experience?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Oh, yes; but Birdie solved that in a lot of ways.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: I mean, having one person step in and be different.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, that\u2019s true.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s so encouraging.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: It made a big difference.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Now, as you think back on that in regard to what you write now about masculinity, was your view of masculinity defined by your dad?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Well, as you can imagine, I became a raging feminist! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014because of your dad?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Do you think\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Oh, yes. I think so.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014do you think he was \u201ctoxic\u201d? I put quotation marks around that word.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Well, his behavior in the home was definitely toxic.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: So I did become very much a feminist.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: You know, I was always reading some feminist book. I read all the major, ground-breaking feminists from Betty Friedan to Simone de Beauvoir and Kate Millett. I read them all.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014because?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Because, whenever they talked about how horrible men were, I thought, \u201cWell, yes!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You agreed!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Definitely! It affected my view of men, even though the healing in my relationship with God was very real.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Make sure you\u2019ve got that part.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: But my view of men was very tainted, definitely. I thought\u2014every feminist book I read\u2014I thought was better than the last one.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: I always had a feminist book at my bedside; always.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Let me ask you: you\u2019ve been married for\/have you been married 50 years?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Almost!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes. So how did that affect your marriage? Did you view your husband in a negative kind of way?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: You would think I would; but I don\u2019t think so, because I'm very relational. I have very deep personal relationships.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014which was helpful for your marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, it\u2019s interesting: you know, as you talk about your background\u2014as I read through The Toxic War on Masculinity\u2014and again, there\u2019s so much in there; I don\u2019t even know where to start! There are so many things that you walk through with the history of masculinity in our culture. I put the book down, thinking you are very pro-man\/very pro-masculinity.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Hearing that background: \u201cWow; this has been quite a journey.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014a transformation.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You end up, at the end of the book, going, \u201cMen are good.\u201d Do you know what I mean?\u2014it\u2019s not a book, ripping on men\u2014it\u2019s: \u201cHere\u2019s the journey men have gone through,\u201d and \u201cHere\u2019s what real masculinity looks like.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014in a beautiful way.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And as a man, I\u2019m like, \u201cYes!\u201d I want to hand this to everybody, and say, \u201cThis is a godly perspective on manhood.\u201d The journey that you went on is very interesting.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Oh, thank you so much! I\u2019m glad that\u2019s what comes through, because I certainly did try to make it positive toward men.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Even when I dealt with some of the difficulties that men have in our culture\u2014and even when I dealt, at the end, with abusive marriages and so on\u2014I tried to always keep it positive. I\u2019m glad that\u2019s what\u2019s coming through; because, you know, men don\u2019t respond well to being accused of being toxic. [Laughter] Who would?!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Here\u2019s what I find really effective. There\u2019s a sociologist, who did a study; and he ends up saying there\u2019s, in our culture, two competing scripts for manhood. He\u2019s a very well-known sociologist; so he speaks around the world, in countries around the world. He began to use that as his testing ground. He would ask young men\u2014\u201cWhat does it mean to be a good man? You know, if you\u2019re at a funeral, and in the eulogy, somebody says, \u2018He was a good man,\u2019 what does that mean?\u201d They had no trouble answering that. Everyone around the world said: \u201cIntegrity, honesty, sacrifice. Help out the little guy,\u201d\u2014I kind of like that one: \u201cHelp out the little guy,\u201d\u2014\u201cBe a protector, and be a provider; be generous,\u201d and so on.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is worldwide?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Worldwide! And by the way, he would say, \u201cWhere did you learn that?\u201d\u2014you know, integrity and sacrifice. They would say, \u201cWell, it\u2019s just in the air we breathe.\u201d And in the Western countries, they would say, \u201cIt\u2019s our Judeo-Christian heritage.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Then, when he\u2019d say, \u201cBut what does it mean to be a real man?\u201d they would say, \u201cOh, no, no, no! A real man\u2014that\u2019s completely different\u2014be tough; be strong; never show weakness; win at all costs! Suck it up; be competitive; get rich!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The real tension, I think, today is not between men and women so much as within men\u2019s own heads between these two competing scripts. As our culture has become more secular, the good man ideal is fading; it\u2019s losing its hold on men\u2019s hearts. What\u2019s left is more the real man, which is what people mean when they say \u201ctoxic.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: They mean the real man as entitlement, power, overdominance, and so on.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Is that why you wanted to write about it and study it?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: No, no; that was one of the sociologists I read when I was involved in it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: That\u2019s not when I first got started.<\/p>\n<p>Do you know when I first got started? I will tell you! There were two reasons. One is\u2014I did have to ask, \u201cWhere is this coming from?\u201d\u2014because the hostility against men is so extreme today, even in mainstream publications. I read a Washington Post article titled, \u201cWhy Can\u2019t We Hate Men?\u201d What? This is not some fringe feminist publication!\u2014it\u2019s the Washington Post!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u201cWhy Can\u2019t We Hate Men?\u201d You can buy t-shirts that say, \u201cSo Many Men, So Little Ammunition.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; I mean, you just set something up; and I\u2019ll end with this\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, that\u2019s a cliffhanger right there! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: At the church I helped lead for 30 years, we had a men\u2019s retreat. Guess what we called it. [Laughter] We called it \u201cMan Up!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Oh.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s really interesting; we probably did that for seven, eight, or ten years. A couple thousand men would come away to this camp. My youngest son came on our staff; and one of his first years there, he said, \u201cDad! That\u2019s a really bad name for a men\u2019s retreat.\u201d [Laughter] It\u2019s interesting, because you just sort of articulated what he tried to say to me. I looked at him and said, \u201cWhat are you talking about?! Nike uses that phrase!\u2014\u2018Man Up!\u2019 Let\u2019s go away and let\u2019s \u2018man up\u2019 and be men.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>He said, \u201cThat is what is killing us as men. We\u2019re being told to \u2018man up,\u2019 and we think that means be toxic and macho; don\u2019t cry.\u201d He said, \u201cThat is not going to reach my generation; we are repelling against that. A man shouldn\u2019t man up; in fact, a man can\u2019t man up!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: A man should lay down his life.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; and he was trying to get at: \u201cWe are nothing without Christ. And you\u2019re saying, \u2018Man up, and you can do this without Jesus!\u2019 We should be saying, \u2018No, I need Jesus.\u2019 It should be something more tender and sensitive.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>At first, I looked at him and said, \u201cWhat are you talking about?!\u201d Then, as I thought about it, I [realized], \u201cHe is exactly right.\u201d And it\u2019s what you\u2019ve just read; that\u2019s the wrong phrase. And that\u2019s something my generation\u2014and you know this generation a little bit\u2014we\u2019ve grown up with that as the vision, and it\u2019s the wrong vision.<\/p>\n<p>You get into that in the book. In fact, tomorrow, we\u2019ve got to talk about: \u201cOkay, if that\u2019s not the right vision, what is?\u201d I can\u2019t wait for our listeners to hear the section in your book about men who go to church.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That was inspiring to me, and that\u2019s tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: This is FamilyLife Today. We're Dave and Ann Wilson. And man, that was a<\/p>\n<p>great conversation with Nancy about a topic that I'm a little passionate about.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I love that you're passionate about it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Everybody is.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I don\u2019t know if everybody is.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: They should be.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, they could be passionate one way or the other. But Nancy is pretty brilliant in<\/p>\n<p>how she writes this book. She communicates about this topic, and I think it's really<\/p>\n<p>necessary to talk about it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What I mean\u2014[by] \u201cEverybody's passionate about it,\u201d\u2014I think everybody is<\/p>\n<p>talking about the role of men\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yeah, me too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014in our culture, not just in the church; everywhere\u2014and the role of women. I<\/p>\n<p>think there's so much confusion; there's not clarity. So when she talks about the toxic<\/p>\n<p>war on masculinity, which is the title of her book, it's a conversation everybody's having.<\/p>\n<p>I mean, think about us, as parents\u2014we raised three boys\u2014that's a conversation every<\/p>\n<p>single day in our life.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And we have four grandsons. I feel the pressures of the culture. Basically, it feels<\/p>\n<p>sometimes like our culture is silencing these great men. And also, it feels, at times, like<\/p>\n<p>our grandsons aren't given these great role models to follow; and that's disconcerting.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, our grandsons have a great role model;\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yeah, they do: you and Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014it\u2019s called me.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And their dad\u2019s pretty great.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, you got Jesus in there too.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yeah, Jesus is the best one.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But I mean, it is obviously true; we just spent the last 20\/30 minutes talking about<\/p>\n<p>it. Our boys and our men need a vision of godly manhood. Nancy's sort of getting in<\/p>\n<p>there: \u201cThere's this masculinity that can be toxic. We need a clear vision.\u201d And she gave<\/p>\n<p>us one. I would tell you: go get the book\u2014it's really worth a read\u2014it's really a study.<\/p>\n<p>We've got Nancy's book in our FamilyLife shop; you can get the link in our show notes.<\/p>\n<p>Just go to FamilyLifeToday.com; click on the link; go to the shop; buy her book.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And if you know anyone who needs to hear a conversation like this one, we'd<\/p>\n<p>love it if you'd tell them about this station. And you can share today's specific<\/p>\n<p>conversation from wherever you get your podcasts. And also, leave a review; leave a<\/p>\n<p>comment. And while you're there, just a simple way that you can help more people<\/p>\n<p>discover God's plan for families is by leaving a rating. Search FamilyLife Today,<\/p>\n<p>wherever you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife.com<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/315518","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=315518"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/312569"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=315518"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=315518"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=315518"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=315518"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=315518"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=315518"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}