{"id":315452,"date":"2025-06-09T03:45:20","date_gmt":"2025-06-09T07:45:20","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/raising-respect-and-faith-in-a-large-family-bill-and-pam-mutz\/"},"modified":"2025-06-17T10:42:22","modified_gmt":"2025-06-17T14:42:22","slug":"raising-respect-and-faith-in-a-large-family-bill-and-pam-mutz","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/raising-respect-and-faith-in-a-large-family-bill-and-pam-mutz\/","title":{"rendered":"Raising Respect and Faith in a Large Family &#8211; Bill and Pam Mutz"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>On this FamilyLife Today episode, hosted by Dave and Ann Wilson, we feature Bill and Pam Mutz, a couple with 12 children and 37 grandchildren, known for their work with FamilyLife\u2019s Weekend to Remember conferences and the Art of Marriage series. The episode introduces their story, starting with their meeting in Indiana and Pam\u2019s initial reluctance to marry or have children.<\/p>\n<p>Despite her plans to serve Jesus overseas, Pam agreed to marry Bill after guidance from mentors, and their perspective on children shifted after their first child, Carrie, awakened Pam\u2019s nurturing instincts. They discuss using the family dinner table as a training ground for respect and devotions, and their decision to trust God with family size, leading to 12 children.<\/p>\n<p>The episode touches on their mentoring roles, including hosting a student from Colombia, and their surrender to God\u2019s plan, even amidst challenges like the loss of a son and granddaughter, Molly. The hosts highlight the couple\u2019s joy, affection, and wisdom gained through decades of marriage and parenting.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Large families experience incredibly unique joys and challenges. Bill and Pam Mutz share their journey of raising twelve kids, surrendering to God, and mentoring with joy.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":312569,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/d4287f56-8a98-4507-ab68-b2eb0147a58a\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:26:48","filesize":"24.57M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2025-06-09 03:45:20","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2838,2862],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[11008],"cwp_profile":[9113],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-315452","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-mothers","category-understanding-differences","podcast_series-richer-by-the-dozen-bill-and-pam-mutz","cwp_profile-bill-and-pam-mutz","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2025\/02\/image_bbee74.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/315452\/raising-respect-and-faith-in-a-large-family-bill-and-pam-mutz","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/315452\/raising-respect-and-faith-in-a-large-family-bill-and-pam-mutz","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"nVu2DiLBsh\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/raising-respect-and-faith-in-a-large-family-bill-and-pam-mutz\/\">Raising Respect and Faith in a Large Family &#8211; Bill and Pam Mutz<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/raising-respect-and-faith-in-a-large-family-bill-and-pam-mutz\/embed\/#?secret=nVu2DiLBsh\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Raising Respect and Faith in a Large Family &#8211; Bill and Pam Mutz&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"nVu2DiLBsh\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["d4287f56-8a98-4507-ab68-b2eb0147a58a"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/d4287f56-8a98-4507-ab68-b2eb0147a58a\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:26:48"],"filesize":["24.57M"],"_thumbnail_id":["312569"],"show_notes":["<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dozenmom.com\/\">Learn more about Bill and Pam Mutz at their website.<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/weekend-to-remember\">Attend a FamilyLife Weekend to Remember conference for marriage enrichment<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr \/>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-06-09.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>Raising Respect and Faith in a Large Family<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Bill and Pam Mutz<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Richer by the Dozen (Day 1 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:June 9, 2025<\/p>\n<p>Bill:We use the kitchen table, where we eat\u2014the family table, wherever that is in your home\u2014to be the place of training. Kids stay in their chair from the beginning of the meal through devotions.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:You have political discussions; you have discussions about what you\u2019re observing in other families.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And I'm Ann Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Alright. We've had some important people in the FamilyLife Today<\/p>\n<p>studio.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:But not as important.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:But we\u2019ve never had a mayor.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Ohh! I never thought of that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Have we ever had a mayor? We've got a mayor!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:We\u2019ve Bill Mutz, the mayor of what?\u2014Laketown?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Lakeland.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Lakeville?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Lakeland.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Lakeland; I knew it\u2014Laketown; Lakeville\u2014Lakeland.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Lakeland. It's about 35 miles from your house.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:It\u2019s actually a really important city in central Florida.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:It is, actually. That's a big deal!<\/p>\n<p>Pam:I\u2019m looking forward to spending a lot of time laughing.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:It\u2019s where the Detroit Tigers do spring training.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yes, forever. It's the only home they've ever had. And we have it for<\/p>\n<p>108 years in the current contract.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:There you go.<\/p>\n<p>Bill and Pam Mutz. Have you guys ever been on\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Do we need to call you Mayor Bill?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:No, just call me Bill.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Do you hear how we just talk over each other? Ann asked Bill a question; I asked him a question at the same time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We're professionals!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:That's what we do. Welcome to FamilyLife. You're like, \u201cOkay; do they know what they're doing?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Those poor guys over there [in the control room].<\/p>\n<p>Bill:And the worst part is we can handle that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yes, you did. I have a feeling\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You were going along with us.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014it's going to happen again.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Well, Bill and Pam are great friends of ours, and we have known you guys<\/p>\n<p>for\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Did we decide 33 years?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That's what I think.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Well, I wrote a little song this morning.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:What?!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You didn't know that? You didn't hear me downstairs?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Is this because Bill is a mayor? You recognize that? That's Indiana. Recognize that at all?<\/p>\n<p>[Dave sings] Here\u2019s a little diddy about Bill and Pam,<\/p>\n<p>Just an Indiana couple with 12 kids,<\/p>\n<p>30 and 7 grandkids, roaming the land.<\/p>\n<p>Hang with them for a minute, and you are living the dream.<\/p>\n<p>They're the oldest couple on the Weekend to Remember team.<\/p>\n<p>Oh, yeah! They will make you laugh,<\/p>\n<p>and they'll sneak Jesus right into your lap.<\/p>\n<p>Oh, yeah!<\/p>\n<p>Pam:What talent!<\/p>\n<p>[Dave sings]We're definitely nuts.<\/p>\n<p>Welcome to FamilyLife Today, Bill and Pam Mutz.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:That was good. That was very good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:That\u2019s the Indiana Fight Song.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:My goodness.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That\u2019s pretty great.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Did you realize you married such talent, Ann?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yes, that's why I married him.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You call that talent? That took about five minutes this morning on the couch.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:That's talent.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I'm like, \u201cI got to write him a song!\u201d I haven't done that in a while.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That's pretty fun.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:But yeah, we're so excited for our listeners to get to know you guys.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And a lot of our listeners have seen you on the Art of Marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:That's true.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:So they might feel like, \u201cHey, I know this couple!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah, it's actually a pretty interesting thing you say on the Art of Marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, actually, Bill and I were in Israel once. The bus had stopped at a jewelry store; and everybody was going in, looking around. Bill and I were just watching this jeweler. This man kept walking back and forth; I could see him out of the corner of my eye. Finally, he came up to me; he goes, \u201cAre you in the Art of Marriage?\u201d And I said, \u201cOh, no; that's not me. That's my sister.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Did you say that?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yes, she did.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:He said, \u201cYes, you were; because you talk about the big \u2018O\u2019 [orgasm].\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah, yeah. We talk about our ten-year anniversary, but she talks about the big \u201cO.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yes, she does.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:If our listeners don't know what we're talking about, we're not going to tell you. Hopefully, you know what that is.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Okay; they can always look at the old Art of Marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Pam and Bill, you guys, when was the last time\u2014you've been on FamilyLife Today\u2014when was that last time?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:That was following our loss of Molly,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yeah, your granddaughter.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:\u2014our granddaughter, Molly, had passed after seven days of an arduous process that Bob Lepine really captured well in a series that he did. That would've been\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And the other set of grandparents were Dennis and Barbara Rainey.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Exactly.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:So you guys shared a grandchild, who passed away.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:It was a really interesting time to go through, as parents. We watched the tension of the fathers\u2014particularly, Dennis and myself\u2014in terms of how much you press in and lead, or not, to this couple, having to make the decisions of what they had to make when they're talking about life-and-death decisions\u2014and whether or not\u2014the very, very grim prospects of multiple, and multiple, and maybe, 20 operations that would take place\u2014 versus a decision to be able to allow Molly to expire.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:She would be 16 years old this year.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Wow! That was 16 years ago.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:It was tough; very, very tough. We had lost a son earlier. I think, for us, it was probably an easier road to go through in something that is that difficult.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:\u2014and another grandchild too.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:True. And it was very, very hard. It was a moment that Dennis and I talked about\u2014how much you push in\u2014he was in favor of pushing in harder; I said, \u201cNot our fight there.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That's a tricky part of being parents of adult kids, of knowing when to step in and when to give space.<\/p>\n<p>Bill: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014especially, in a tragic situation like that.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:You bet.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah. Well, people probably thought I was joking when I'm singing about 12 kids and 37 grandchildren. But we're not joking, right?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:We're not.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:That is correct\u2014we are nuts\u2014Mutz nuts!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:That took a lot to get that rhyme this morning: \u201cWhat rhymes with Mutz?\u201d\u2014nuts! And they are nuts!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That works; that was pretty impressive, actually.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:The first line wasn't as good; that one came out pretty good. I'm sure it'll be billboard-top 100 percent.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:No question; no question.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Tell our listeners a little bit about your story. Even as we read Richer by the Dozen\u2014and you don't even know the subtitle yet\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Pam:That's correct!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014but you have 12 kids. Meeting in Indiana\u2014we're Ohio people\u2014so we get it. I think the first time\u2014maybe, the first time we met you\u2014was that at the Weekend to Remember that we spoke at?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:That's correct, in Indianapolis.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You were the City Directors for FamilyLife\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bill:That's correct.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014in Indy, right?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Right. We had just\u2014to give them the background\u2014we had been asked to be the directors\u2014and that was when we started that conference in Indianapolis. But giving the background\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Oh, there was no conference before you guys?<\/p>\n<p>Pam:No, no; there was no conference in Indiana. They came, and they said, \u201cWould you all be interested in starting the FamilyLife conference?\u201d Bill goes, \u201cWell, I have a new job. We just had a new baby. Our dog had puppies, which\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bill:\u201414.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:\u2014\"was a dalmatian.\u201d She had 19, actually, I think.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Okay; fine. We won\u2019t argue over five puppies.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:And then, people go, \u201cOkay, we are not coming to your house or drinking your water.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You were selling cars then, right?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:No.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:No, not then!<\/p>\n<p>Bill:No, not in Indianapolis. I was in warehouse distribution.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Yeah. We said, \u201cNo, but here's the name of five other people that we think would be great!\u201d They followed up those five other people, and they came back. At that point in time, we were ministering to four couples\u2014two, which made it; two, which didn't\u2014and they came to us, and they said, \u201cHey, these five couples recommended you guys.\u201d And so we said, \u201cOkay, we'll pray about it.\u201d That's when we realized that God wants us\u2014He wants us to yield our hearts to Him\u2014it's not so much the abilities that we have, but the availability that's important. We have just seen God come in, time after time. Just when you're overwhelmed\u2014when you can't do it\u2014and God comes in, and He provides.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:I think one of the key things that happened in that moment was they said, \u201cWell, if you aren't going to do it, we're going to pass on doing the conference in Indianapolis.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Really?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:And we went, \u201cUgh!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Pam:\u2014\u201cat least, for a year,\u201d\u2014they said.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:It's one of the bigger conferences in the country now.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And it was then, too; that was a big conference.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:It came out of the gate at about 900; it went to 1200.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:And so we said, \u201cWell, right now, we're in the middle of these four couples.\u201d \u201cHow many others are there that aren't going to make it, because they're not getting truth?\u2014because they're not getting great information?\u201d\u2014which is what the FamilyLife conference, Weekend to Remember, is.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Pam's right; it's making the decision to be available. So many times we focus on our own inconveniences so much that we can't focus on what God can do if He just has a willing hand. He'll multiply the resources.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I remember the first time I met you guys; I was probably 31, possibly.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:You were a young, cute thing, just like you are now!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Oh, no. I remember\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:She is a cute thing.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014meeting you, Pam, thinking, \u201cThis woman is extraordinary.\u201d I thought you were beautiful.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And I thought that about you, Bill.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Oh, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Just so you know.<\/p>\n<p>Bill: I\u2019m still\/I'm just mesmerized by you right now.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I know you are!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:No! I thought, \u201cYou have a joy.\u201d You can probably hear it, or see it if you're watching this on YouTube. But you have a joy that's contagious. An enthusiasm and an energy and a love for Jesus that I thought, \u201cI wish I lived here, because I would be her friend; and probably, weird and crazy adventures.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You're a little bit similar.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, actually, when we're together at the Speaker FamilyLife Conference, we go on walks together; we and catch up. We're beach-walkers together.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We do; we do.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And we go play golf together. Remember those times?<\/p>\n<p>Pam:That\u2019s very generous of you to call it golf.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yes, we always used your shot; otherwise, it\u2019s crazy.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You're the craziest golfer I've ever golfed with.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, I figured, \u201cYou might as well run in between when you hit the ball.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:She runs to the ball! It\u2019s usually not very far. She runs to the ball.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:But now, you've been speaking! Here, you started out kind of starting this whole conference in Indianapolis; but now, you've been speaking for the Weekend to Remember conferences for how many years?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Twenty-nine years.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That's incredible.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:It's interesting; because when our first daughter got married, we were 42. I think about what we knew then, and I thought it was a fair amount that God had given us wisdom; this was our oldest daughter. What I've seen is\u2014in the 40s, 50s, 60s\u2014there's so much wisdom\/more wisdom that's gained.<\/p>\n<p>I wonder, \u201cHey, did I shut down my parents with the wisdom they had?\u2014or even my grandparents?\u201d I think that's just a good question to ask; because it's easy to talk over them, and for them not to be heard. I think they had so much wisdom. I just see\u2014I am grateful\u2014our wonderful speaker team leader has done such a great job of encouraging us to stay on and to just be available.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And I think, too, sometimes, couples can get older, and feel like, \u201cOh, I'm done.\u201d And yet\u2014as you're saying, Pam\u2014I say, \u201cWhether you have a lot of victories or a lot of failures, you've learned a ton from those.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014and there's wisdom.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cAnd God wants to use you; He always wants to use us.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Dennis Rainey said to me\u2014he probably said that to you guys\u2014when I turned 60, he said, \u201cYour best decade.\u201d I go\u2014I rolled my eyes\u2014like, \u201cDennis, I'm getting old.\u201d And he goes\/he just looked at me, like, \u201cAre you crazy?! This is going to be your best decade.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bill:It truly is; it's a great decade.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:And just think, Dave, if you weren't getting older, what would you be?\u2014dead!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Dead.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:And so you wouldn't have anything to say!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Took me a minute; it\u2019s like, \u201cI guess I'd be dead.\u201d I remember\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Pam:So it's a privilege! It's a privilege to get older; \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah,<\/p>\n<p>Pam:\u2014that's what I'm saying.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I went to one of our Detroit Lion players\u2014I did it 33 years\u2014I bet it was like year 20. I went to one of the leaders of the ministry; he was a first-round draft pick, Luther. I said, \u201cHey, are we [he and Ann] too old?\u201d He goes, \u201cWhat?!\u201d I go, \u201cWe've been doing this a while. When I started, I was the age of the players. Now, I'm like the age of your parents. Maybe, it's time for somebody that you can relate better to.\u201d He looks at me, and goes, \u201cYou don't get it, do you?\u201d I go, \u201cNo, I'm asking you. I really want your wisdom. You're a player. If my time's done, I'm good with that; I just need to know. I don't want to be that guy hanging around.\u201d He goes, \u201cYou're better now than you've ever been. If you're a peer, we don't respect that; you got no wisdom. You got that now.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Pam:That's awesome.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u201cYou've lived enough to know something, and we are looking up to you as a mentor. You're not a peer; you're a mentor. We need mentors.\u201d I'm like, \u201cOkay.\u201d I did, but he's right.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:He is absolutely right. Mentoring is so important, and I think it is something that we have consistently done increasingly. In fact, we have a student from Colombia living in our house today, who three years ago, came up to me at a men's conference as soon after I was done speaking, and said, \u201cI would like you to mentor me.\u201d I said, \u201cWell, call my assistant and set this up.\u201d He was there on Monday.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Really?<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, what is cool about this kid: he said, \u201cI waited two years for my dad to sign my visa before he'd sign it so I could come.\u201d And then, he came to a Christian university in Lakeland, Florida. He said he joined the track team, because he had to find a way to pay for his schooling; he came with $2,000 three years ago; that was it! He moved into our house at the end of summer; and he said, \u201cLook, Bill and Pam, I have paid off my school debt.\u201d And we're like, \u201cFelipe, that's incredible!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bill:He\u2019s starting his NBA [career] now.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:That guy has get up-and-go! It just shows you\u2014I think we can feel that this is what we deserve; or our kids can feel that, because we've grown up in this country\u2014and I'm telling you: it shows you that, if there's a will, there's a way. He's been such an encouragement.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:And we have consistently, over time, had people live in our house. Some of that bothered our kids when they were also living in our house. But some of that\u2014these were moments in lives that we just felt was an opportunity to create a window for them of living differently\u2014I've given away five daughters, who weren't mine, in weddings that were part of the fruit of that. What a privilege it is to have filled that fathering role; because in many cases, they didn't have one who was active in their lives.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:By that point, you've got 13 of your own. What's 15 or 16 in the house?!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Well, as I read\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We're going to get into that too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014as I read Richer by the Dozen, Pam, I was surprised in the first chapter;<\/p>\n<p>you're like, \u201cI don't even want kids.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Pam:I didn't want to get married until I was older\u2014at least, my late 20s; maybe, early 30s\u2014and kids: I hadn't even thought about it. I grew up with horses\u2014and training horses\u2014and I loved that. I had babysat once in my life\u2014once.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:A lot of experience.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:I didn't know anything about kids. I was like: \u201cBabies are ugly; they all look alike. Who wants one?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We've been talking about what your subtitle is going to be. You're not locked into necessarily a title\u2014but we have it written down\u2014\"When the Life You Want Isn't the Life You Got.\u201d What percentage of people are living that?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:A lot.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Everybody.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Exactly! And yet, you've taken this; I'm thinking, \u201cIf you\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Not you, Ann\u2014you married me\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014I got everything!<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:But everybody else\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bill:But wait for her next book then.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:She got everything as a challenge!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:But when I look at your life you never anticipated\u2014you weren't even<\/p>\n<p>longing to have all these kids\u2014and yet,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bill:\u2014zero.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014zero.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:I wasn't expecting to have kids as early as I did. In fact, I'd gone to my doctor before we got married; you're supposed to go to your OB, right? I went, and his name was Dr. Billie Graham; well, we all know Billy Graham tells the truth. He goes, \u201cPam, you're going to have a hard time.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That was really your doctor?!<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yes, it really was.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Yes, it was really his name! He goes, \u201cYou're going to have a difficult time getting pregnant, so I wouldn't really use birth control.\u201d A month after we get back from our honeymoon, I'm like, \u201cI am so sick. What in the world is wrong with me?\u201d Do the test. I'm sitting there waiting; she comes up; and she's like, \u201cYou\u2019re pregnant.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014a month after your honeymoon?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yes. And I had had to encourage Pam to get married in the first place\u2014<\/p>\n<p>that was step one\u2014just to have her willing to get married.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:We went to the second FamilyLife conference, which was just for staff. It was at Dulles Airport.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:So you were there.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:I was there.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014back in the \u201870s.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:They had done Williamsburg two weeks before; and then, they did the Dulles Airport. It was Mick Yoder, and Dennis Rainey, and\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Oh, yes; that's who did ours!<\/p>\n<p>Bill:\u2014and Ney Bailey, and Don Meredith.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:We were sitting there, listening to this weekend. I'm going, \u201cPam, what do you think?\u201d And she goes, \u201cYeah, yeah; I think we should get married.\u201d We go to meet with Ney Bailey. She's just told me this; and Ney goes, \u201cYou guys look great on paper. What are your thoughts? Are you excited about getting married?\u201d And Pam goes, \u201cNo!\u201d\u2014and starts\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You said, \u201cNo\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Pam:I\u2019m like, \u201cI don\u2019t know! I just don't think so!\u201d I was like a yo-yo. I was up and down and up and down. I was like, \u201cNo, I just want to serve Jesus. I want to go overseas,\u201d and \u201cIf you get married, you can't do that!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You had your life mapped out.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yes, she did.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:And he is from Indiana, and God hadn't called him into \u201cfull-time ministry.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bill:And she's in Colorado, and there's no mountains in Indiana.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:It's like, \u201cI'm doomed.\u201d Actually, Nancy Wilson\u2014whom we were talking about, who was on staff with Cru for almost 50 years\u2014she had on my cake: \"Doomed to marry such a groom.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Given that background, finally, Pam says, \u201cYes, I'll marry you.\u201d We get married with that enthusiasm level.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:No, I got excited.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yeah, you did; she got romantic later. God had really reflected to me that that was going to be my wife, and so I persisted. But had He not done that, I don't know that I could have really; it was almost\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, we met with Don Meredith.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Don said to her\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Pam:\u2014that morning of the end of the retreat.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:\u2014because of what she had said to Ney\u2014which, minutes before, she told me she was fine about [marriage]. Then, we meet with Don. Don listened to her story; and then, turned to me. Really didn't look at Pam again, and said, \u201cGive her six weeks to get through this. Make a decision one way or the other in terms of whether or not she wants to get married. If she says, \u2018No,\u2019 then you don't talk to each other for a minimum of six months; perhaps, a year,\u201d\u2014or fax\u2014because those were the options back then. That's what we agreed to do.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:He said this wasn't unusual because you have women who have the intention of serving Jesus. Marriage is an interruption to that; and later, of course, I learned marriage is part of God's plan.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:\u2014and interruptions are part of the course.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yes. Isn't that a good life lesson that we learned\/that you've learned?<\/p>\n<p>Well, as I think about you two, and even that, I want to say\u2014I don't know if I've ever told you guys this\u2014\u201cThere's always couples in our lives that we see, married couples; and we think, \u2018Oh, I want a marriage like that.\u2019\u201d I've always thought that of you two\u2014the love that you have\u2014you're super affectionate. You really like each other. And you can tell\u2014we stand in these meetings\u2014and you know how, sometimes, it's sickening when couples are so lovey to each other? I mean, Bill is just rubbing Pam's back.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:They actually took us to the elder board at one church we went to!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:What?!<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yeah, we had somebody who wrote\/said, \u201cThey're distracting during church, because he's always touching her back.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Really? You ended up in front of an elder board about that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:What a compliment.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, no. Bill was on the elder board. One of the elders goes, \u201cIs there a problem with too much love?\u201d \u2014he said that.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:\u201cThat's what we want to ban?\u2014too much love in our church?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Pam:\u2014\"between a married couple.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yeah, I know.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:It's really sweet.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Thanks, you guys.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Okay; so you have your first baby. Take us now into the next few years.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:We had Cari. It was like God woke up a nurturing gene in me I didn't even know existed.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Me too! When we had kids, Pam, I was the same: \u201cDo I want kids?\u201d\u2014it was very cerebral.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I didn't have this longing; but I thought, \u201cWell, we've been married six years; it's probably time.\u201d But I was\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:We didn't get pregnant on our honeymoon. Nope; I think God knew.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014which was His grace; I was only 19. But when I had that baby, it just all kicked in. You felt the same.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Yes, it was incredible. We kind of became known as child-holics. We just took our kid with us everywhere we went. We're like, \u201cOh, yeah; you just train them.\u201d So if you have to be in a meeting, or you're going out to dinner\u2014whatever\u2014you got to learn how to train your kids. Because I didn't want children to be an interruption to our life; we wanted to be the married ones who are bringing our kids along with this exciting journey.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And every mom is like, \u201cOh, she didn't have any colicky babies.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bill:We did have colicky babies. Some of that you have to work through, obviously, as you go through stages that the children may have differently; but by and large, we use the table\u2014the kitchen table, where we eat; the family table\u2014wherever that is in your home, to be the place of training. Kids stay in their chair from the beginning of the meal through devotions.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:What?! Even the baby in the high chair?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yes, even the baby in the high chair.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yeah, you did.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:We also had our kids sit with us in church.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Everyone's like, \u201cI need these people as my mentors.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, the thing is\u2014you go into a restaurant; kids are running around, or kids whining\u2014and it's not our kids. We're far from perfect, but if you just think about your dinner table being the training ground.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:It's the place.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:You're not training in the restaurant. You're living out [in the restaurant] what you've trained in the [home].<\/p>\n<p>Bill:And the table's where you learn respect for each other\u2014you hear the highs and lows of the day\u2014where you do a devotion at the end of the meal.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:You have political discussions; you have discussions about what you're observing in other families; what we need to work on as a family.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Having a baby didn't stop you. You're continuing doing a lot of the things you had been doing.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, so then, I went to my six-week checkup. My doctor said, \u201cHey, Pam, you guys need to talk about what you want to do as far as birth control.\u201d I said, \u201cOkay.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bill:\u201cToo late.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Pam:I came home; and I was like, \u201cBill, we got to talk about this. What do we want to do?\u201d He looked at me, and he goes,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bill:\u2014\"I think we should trust God for our kids.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Pam:I said, \u201cWhat? Did you talk to somebody, read a book, hear a podcast?\u201d\u2014well, there weren't podcasts then\u2014\u201ca radio program? Where in the world did that come from?\u201d I looked at him, and I said, \u201cYou are crazy! But I'll pray about it for a month.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You guys\u2014I just can't tell you\u2014I just feel like anytime you want to discuss this, that you can go back to God's Word. He has something to say to you. As I opened my Bible, it's like God says, \u201cChildren are a blessing,\u201d\u2014I'd always thought, \u201cChildren are an interruption. They're so noisy; and people don't control them, and they're just all over the place,\u201d\u2014and that children are fun, and children are meant to be an enjoyment for us. God really transformed my thinking in that month. What I want to say: \u201cIt wasn't my positive thinking. It was the Word of God that I went to, that spoke to me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bill:And I think, too, there's a balance in this. That's not to say that, if you don't take that posture, you're wrong. It is the fact that, had there been anything that was a health concern, anything that changed in our hearts that God was showing us, we'd respond to that.<\/p>\n<p>After we had our fifth one, my father-in-law said, \u201cI don't appreciate you making a brood mare out of my daughter,\u201d which is pretty strong.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Did he say that?!<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Oh, yeah; he really did.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Really?<\/p>\n<p>Bill: I said, \u201cIf we ever felt like Pam had any health issues, we would stop. But that's what we are both comfortable doing.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And that's the other issue: it needs to be something you, in accord\u2014strong accord\u2014agree to be willing to do, or not, in terms of the number of kids. If one person is overwhelmed, then I think that has to be weighed in.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, I think\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bill:And without them having to feel guilty that they don't have enough faith or anything like that.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, I see a lot of times people, they have a two- or three-year-old and a newborn or even six months old, and they're like, \u201cOh, man, I can't handle anymore!\u201d And it's true; you can't because it's overwhelming. But it's just like a new job\u2014it's something that you're learning\u2014you're building skills. You don't even realize\u2014\u201cWhoever thought you had to have skills to be a parent?\u201d\u2014I didn\u2019t; I knew nothing.<\/p>\n<p>As I was mentored by other moms\u2014learned from other moms\u2014start getting exposed to homeschooling, public schools, just whatever, I just began to absorb all this other information from other people that was really incredible and really helpful for me as a person.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I think the thing that stands out to me is your surrender. If there's a theme to your lives, it's that. The fact that you would go to God, and say, \u201cGod, what do You want us to do about our kids, about birth control? We give it to You.\u201d We're not all willing to go there. There are certain things that we're allowing God to have; but there are certain things that's easy to hold onto because, we want to control it. But your lives have been a picture of surrender, both of you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And tomorrow, you're going to hear about what surrender really looks like when it gets hard.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014especially, if you've lost a child. We're going to talk about that tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Well, we've been talking with our friends, Bill and Pam Mutz. I got to say, \u201cEvery time I'm with them, I\u2019m just smiling.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We've known them for so long, and we love them.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:They bring joy. Bill and Pam Mutz have a new book called Richer by the Dozen. Get it wherever you buy your books. Go get one now; maybe, get a couple.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife.com<\/p>\n"],"_edit_lock":["1750171441:47000"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_59442dffbacacc04025712e1d1bc0a901798ae38":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" \/]"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_atts_59442dffbacacc04025712e1d1bc0a901798ae38":["a:17:{s:2:\"to\";s:29:\"margaret.coyle@familylife.com\";s:7:\"subject\";s:93:\"[FamilyLife - A Cru Ministry] Raising Respect and Faith in a Large Family - Bill and Pam Mutz\";s:12:\"show_subject\";s:2:\"no\";s:6:\"widget\";i:0;s:14:\"block_template\";N;s:19:\"block_template_part\";N;s:2:\"id\";i:315452;s:18:\"submit_button_text\";s:6:\"Submit\";s:14:\"customThankyou\";s:0:\"\";s:21:\"customThankyouHeading\";s:26:\"Your message has been sent\";s:21:\"customThankyouMessage\";s:30:\"Thank 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families experience incredibly unique joys and challenges. Bill and Pam Mutz share their journey of raising twelve kids, surrendering to God, and mentoring with joy.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dozenmom.com\/\">Learn more about Bill and Pam Mutz at their website.<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/weekend-to-remember\">Attend a FamilyLife Weekend to Remember conference for marriage enrichment<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr \/>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-06-09.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>Raising Respect and Faith in a Large Family<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Bill and Pam Mutz<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Richer by the Dozen (Day 1 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:June 9, 2025<\/p>\n<p>Bill:We use the kitchen table, where we eat\u2014the family table, wherever that is in your home\u2014to be the place of training. Kids stay in their chair from the beginning of the meal through devotions.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:You have political discussions; you have discussions about what you\u2019re observing in other families.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And I'm Ann Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Alright. We've had some important people in the FamilyLife Today<\/p>\n<p>studio.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:But not as important.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:But we\u2019ve never had a mayor.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Ohh! I never thought of that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Have we ever had a mayor? We've got a mayor!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:We\u2019ve Bill Mutz, the mayor of what?\u2014Laketown?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Lakeland.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Lakeville?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Lakeland.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Lakeland; I knew it\u2014Laketown; Lakeville\u2014Lakeland.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Lakeland. It's about 35 miles from your house.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:It\u2019s actually a really important city in central Florida.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:It is, actually. That's a big deal!<\/p>\n<p>Pam:I\u2019m looking forward to spending a lot of time laughing.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:It\u2019s where the Detroit Tigers do spring training.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yes, forever. It's the only home they've ever had. And we have it for<\/p>\n<p>108 years in the current contract.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:There you go.<\/p>\n<p>Bill and Pam Mutz. Have you guys ever been on\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Do we need to call you Mayor Bill?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:No, just call me Bill.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Do you hear how we just talk over each other? Ann asked Bill a question; I asked him a question at the same time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We're professionals!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:That's what we do. Welcome to FamilyLife. You're like, \u201cOkay; do they know what they're doing?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Those poor guys over there [in the control room].<\/p>\n<p>Bill:And the worst part is we can handle that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yes, you did. I have a feeling\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You were going along with us.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014it's going to happen again.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Well, Bill and Pam are great friends of ours, and we have known you guys<\/p>\n<p>for\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Did we decide 33 years?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That's what I think.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Well, I wrote a little song this morning.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:What?!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You didn't know that? You didn't hear me downstairs?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Is this because Bill is a mayor? You recognize that? That's Indiana. Recognize that at all?<\/p>\n<p>[Dave sings] Here\u2019s a little diddy about Bill and Pam,<\/p>\n<p>Just an Indiana couple with 12 kids,<\/p>\n<p>30 and 7 grandkids, roaming the land.<\/p>\n<p>Hang with them for a minute, and you are living the dream.<\/p>\n<p>They're the oldest couple on the Weekend to Remember team.<\/p>\n<p>Oh, yeah! They will make you laugh,<\/p>\n<p>and they'll sneak Jesus right into your lap.<\/p>\n<p>Oh, yeah!<\/p>\n<p>Pam:What talent!<\/p>\n<p>[Dave sings]We're definitely nuts.<\/p>\n<p>Welcome to FamilyLife Today, Bill and Pam Mutz.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:That was good. That was very good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:That\u2019s the Indiana Fight Song.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:My goodness.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That\u2019s pretty great.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Did you realize you married such talent, Ann?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yes, that's why I married him.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You call that talent? That took about five minutes this morning on the couch.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:That's talent.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I'm like, \u201cI got to write him a song!\u201d I haven't done that in a while.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That's pretty fun.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:But yeah, we're so excited for our listeners to get to know you guys.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And a lot of our listeners have seen you on the Art of Marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:That's true.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:So they might feel like, \u201cHey, I know this couple!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah, it's actually a pretty interesting thing you say on the Art of Marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, actually, Bill and I were in Israel once. The bus had stopped at a jewelry store; and everybody was going in, looking around. Bill and I were just watching this jeweler. This man kept walking back and forth; I could see him out of the corner of my eye. Finally, he came up to me; he goes, \u201cAre you in the Art of Marriage?\u201d And I said, \u201cOh, no; that's not me. That's my sister.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Did you say that?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yes, she did.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:He said, \u201cYes, you were; because you talk about the big \u2018O\u2019 [orgasm].\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah, yeah. We talk about our ten-year anniversary, but she talks about the big \u201cO.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yes, she does.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:If our listeners don't know what we're talking about, we're not going to tell you. Hopefully, you know what that is.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Okay; they can always look at the old Art of Marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Pam and Bill, you guys, when was the last time\u2014you've been on FamilyLife Today\u2014when was that last time?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:That was following our loss of Molly,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yeah, your granddaughter.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:\u2014our granddaughter, Molly, had passed after seven days of an arduous process that Bob Lepine really captured well in a series that he did. That would've been\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And the other set of grandparents were Dennis and Barbara Rainey.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Exactly.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:So you guys shared a grandchild, who passed away.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:It was a really interesting time to go through, as parents. We watched the tension of the fathers\u2014particularly, Dennis and myself\u2014in terms of how much you press in and lead, or not, to this couple, having to make the decisions of what they had to make when they're talking about life-and-death decisions\u2014and whether or not\u2014the very, very grim prospects of multiple, and multiple, and maybe, 20 operations that would take place\u2014 versus a decision to be able to allow Molly to expire.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:She would be 16 years old this year.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Wow! That was 16 years ago.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:It was tough; very, very tough. We had lost a son earlier. I think, for us, it was probably an easier road to go through in something that is that difficult.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:\u2014and another grandchild too.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:True. And it was very, very hard. It was a moment that Dennis and I talked about\u2014how much you push in\u2014he was in favor of pushing in harder; I said, \u201cNot our fight there.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That's a tricky part of being parents of adult kids, of knowing when to step in and when to give space.<\/p>\n<p>Bill: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014especially, in a tragic situation like that.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:You bet.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah. Well, people probably thought I was joking when I'm singing about 12 kids and 37 grandchildren. But we're not joking, right?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:We're not.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:That is correct\u2014we are nuts\u2014Mutz nuts!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:That took a lot to get that rhyme this morning: \u201cWhat rhymes with Mutz?\u201d\u2014nuts! And they are nuts!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That works; that was pretty impressive, actually.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:The first line wasn't as good; that one came out pretty good. I'm sure it'll be billboard-top 100 percent.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:No question; no question.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Tell our listeners a little bit about your story. Even as we read Richer by the Dozen\u2014and you don't even know the subtitle yet\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Pam:That's correct!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014but you have 12 kids. Meeting in Indiana\u2014we're Ohio people\u2014so we get it. I think the first time\u2014maybe, the first time we met you\u2014was that at the Weekend to Remember that we spoke at?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:That's correct, in Indianapolis.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You were the City Directors for FamilyLife\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bill:That's correct.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014in Indy, right?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Right. We had just\u2014to give them the background\u2014we had been asked to be the directors\u2014and that was when we started that conference in Indianapolis. But giving the background\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Oh, there was no conference before you guys?<\/p>\n<p>Pam:No, no; there was no conference in Indiana. They came, and they said, \u201cWould you all be interested in starting the FamilyLife conference?\u201d Bill goes, \u201cWell, I have a new job. We just had a new baby. Our dog had puppies, which\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bill:\u201414.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:\u2014\"was a dalmatian.\u201d She had 19, actually, I think.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Okay; fine. We won\u2019t argue over five puppies.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:And then, people go, \u201cOkay, we are not coming to your house or drinking your water.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You were selling cars then, right?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:No.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:No, not then!<\/p>\n<p>Bill:No, not in Indianapolis. I was in warehouse distribution.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Yeah. We said, \u201cNo, but here's the name of five other people that we think would be great!\u201d They followed up those five other people, and they came back. At that point in time, we were ministering to four couples\u2014two, which made it; two, which didn't\u2014and they came to us, and they said, \u201cHey, these five couples recommended you guys.\u201d And so we said, \u201cOkay, we'll pray about it.\u201d That's when we realized that God wants us\u2014He wants us to yield our hearts to Him\u2014it's not so much the abilities that we have, but the availability that's important. We have just seen God come in, time after time. Just when you're overwhelmed\u2014when you can't do it\u2014and God comes in, and He provides.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:I think one of the key things that happened in that moment was they said, \u201cWell, if you aren't going to do it, we're going to pass on doing the conference in Indianapolis.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Really?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:And we went, \u201cUgh!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Pam:\u2014\u201cat least, for a year,\u201d\u2014they said.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:It's one of the bigger conferences in the country now.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And it was then, too; that was a big conference.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:It came out of the gate at about 900; it went to 1200.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:And so we said, \u201cWell, right now, we're in the middle of these four couples.\u201d \u201cHow many others are there that aren't going to make it, because they're not getting truth?\u2014because they're not getting great information?\u201d\u2014which is what the FamilyLife conference, Weekend to Remember, is.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Pam's right; it's making the decision to be available. So many times we focus on our own inconveniences so much that we can't focus on what God can do if He just has a willing hand. He'll multiply the resources.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I remember the first time I met you guys; I was probably 31, possibly.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:You were a young, cute thing, just like you are now!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Oh, no. I remember\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:She is a cute thing.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014meeting you, Pam, thinking, \u201cThis woman is extraordinary.\u201d I thought you were beautiful.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And I thought that about you, Bill.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Oh, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Just so you know.<\/p>\n<p>Bill: I\u2019m still\/I'm just mesmerized by you right now.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I know you are!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:No! I thought, \u201cYou have a joy.\u201d You can probably hear it, or see it if you're watching this on YouTube. But you have a joy that's contagious. An enthusiasm and an energy and a love for Jesus that I thought, \u201cI wish I lived here, because I would be her friend; and probably, weird and crazy adventures.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You're a little bit similar.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, actually, when we're together at the Speaker FamilyLife Conference, we go on walks together; we and catch up. We're beach-walkers together.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We do; we do.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And we go play golf together. Remember those times?<\/p>\n<p>Pam:That\u2019s very generous of you to call it golf.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yes, we always used your shot; otherwise, it\u2019s crazy.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You're the craziest golfer I've ever golfed with.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, I figured, \u201cYou might as well run in between when you hit the ball.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:She runs to the ball! It\u2019s usually not very far. She runs to the ball.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:But now, you've been speaking! Here, you started out kind of starting this whole conference in Indianapolis; but now, you've been speaking for the Weekend to Remember conferences for how many years?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Twenty-nine years.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That's incredible.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:It's interesting; because when our first daughter got married, we were 42. I think about what we knew then, and I thought it was a fair amount that God had given us wisdom; this was our oldest daughter. What I've seen is\u2014in the 40s, 50s, 60s\u2014there's so much wisdom\/more wisdom that's gained.<\/p>\n<p>I wonder, \u201cHey, did I shut down my parents with the wisdom they had?\u2014or even my grandparents?\u201d I think that's just a good question to ask; because it's easy to talk over them, and for them not to be heard. I think they had so much wisdom. I just see\u2014I am grateful\u2014our wonderful speaker team leader has done such a great job of encouraging us to stay on and to just be available.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And I think, too, sometimes, couples can get older, and feel like, \u201cOh, I'm done.\u201d And yet\u2014as you're saying, Pam\u2014I say, \u201cWhether you have a lot of victories or a lot of failures, you've learned a ton from those.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014and there's wisdom.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cAnd God wants to use you; He always wants to use us.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Dennis Rainey said to me\u2014he probably said that to you guys\u2014when I turned 60, he said, \u201cYour best decade.\u201d I go\u2014I rolled my eyes\u2014like, \u201cDennis, I'm getting old.\u201d And he goes\/he just looked at me, like, \u201cAre you crazy?! This is going to be your best decade.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bill:It truly is; it's a great decade.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:And just think, Dave, if you weren't getting older, what would you be?\u2014dead!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Dead.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:And so you wouldn't have anything to say!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Took me a minute; it\u2019s like, \u201cI guess I'd be dead.\u201d I remember\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Pam:So it's a privilege! It's a privilege to get older; \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah,<\/p>\n<p>Pam:\u2014that's what I'm saying.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I went to one of our Detroit Lion players\u2014I did it 33 years\u2014I bet it was like year 20. I went to one of the leaders of the ministry; he was a first-round draft pick, Luther. I said, \u201cHey, are we [he and Ann] too old?\u201d He goes, \u201cWhat?!\u201d I go, \u201cWe've been doing this a while. When I started, I was the age of the players. Now, I'm like the age of your parents. Maybe, it's time for somebody that you can relate better to.\u201d He looks at me, and goes, \u201cYou don't get it, do you?\u201d I go, \u201cNo, I'm asking you. I really want your wisdom. You're a player. If my time's done, I'm good with that; I just need to know. I don't want to be that guy hanging around.\u201d He goes, \u201cYou're better now than you've ever been. If you're a peer, we don't respect that; you got no wisdom. You got that now.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Pam:That's awesome.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u201cYou've lived enough to know something, and we are looking up to you as a mentor. You're not a peer; you're a mentor. We need mentors.\u201d I'm like, \u201cOkay.\u201d I did, but he's right.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:He is absolutely right. Mentoring is so important, and I think it is something that we have consistently done increasingly. In fact, we have a student from Colombia living in our house today, who three years ago, came up to me at a men's conference as soon after I was done speaking, and said, \u201cI would like you to mentor me.\u201d I said, \u201cWell, call my assistant and set this up.\u201d He was there on Monday.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Really?<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, what is cool about this kid: he said, \u201cI waited two years for my dad to sign my visa before he'd sign it so I could come.\u201d And then, he came to a Christian university in Lakeland, Florida. He said he joined the track team, because he had to find a way to pay for his schooling; he came with $2,000 three years ago; that was it! He moved into our house at the end of summer; and he said, \u201cLook, Bill and Pam, I have paid off my school debt.\u201d And we're like, \u201cFelipe, that's incredible!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bill:He\u2019s starting his NBA [career] now.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:That guy has get up-and-go! It just shows you\u2014I think we can feel that this is what we deserve; or our kids can feel that, because we've grown up in this country\u2014and I'm telling you: it shows you that, if there's a will, there's a way. He's been such an encouragement.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:And we have consistently, over time, had people live in our house. Some of that bothered our kids when they were also living in our house. But some of that\u2014these were moments in lives that we just felt was an opportunity to create a window for them of living differently\u2014I've given away five daughters, who weren't mine, in weddings that were part of the fruit of that. What a privilege it is to have filled that fathering role; because in many cases, they didn't have one who was active in their lives.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:By that point, you've got 13 of your own. What's 15 or 16 in the house?!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Well, as I read\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We're going to get into that too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014as I read Richer by the Dozen, Pam, I was surprised in the first chapter;<\/p>\n<p>you're like, \u201cI don't even want kids.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Pam:I didn't want to get married until I was older\u2014at least, my late 20s; maybe, early 30s\u2014and kids: I hadn't even thought about it. I grew up with horses\u2014and training horses\u2014and I loved that. I had babysat once in my life\u2014once.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:A lot of experience.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:I didn't know anything about kids. I was like: \u201cBabies are ugly; they all look alike. Who wants one?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We've been talking about what your subtitle is going to be. You're not locked into necessarily a title\u2014but we have it written down\u2014\"When the Life You Want Isn't the Life You Got.\u201d What percentage of people are living that?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:A lot.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Everybody.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Exactly! And yet, you've taken this; I'm thinking, \u201cIf you\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Not you, Ann\u2014you married me\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014I got everything!<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:But everybody else\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bill:But wait for her next book then.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:She got everything as a challenge!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:But when I look at your life you never anticipated\u2014you weren't even<\/p>\n<p>longing to have all these kids\u2014and yet,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bill:\u2014zero.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014zero.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:I wasn't expecting to have kids as early as I did. In fact, I'd gone to my doctor before we got married; you're supposed to go to your OB, right? I went, and his name was Dr. Billie Graham; well, we all know Billy Graham tells the truth. He goes, \u201cPam, you're going to have a hard time.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That was really your doctor?!<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yes, it really was.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Yes, it was really his name! He goes, \u201cYou're going to have a difficult time getting pregnant, so I wouldn't really use birth control.\u201d A month after we get back from our honeymoon, I'm like, \u201cI am so sick. What in the world is wrong with me?\u201d Do the test. I'm sitting there waiting; she comes up; and she's like, \u201cYou\u2019re pregnant.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014a month after your honeymoon?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yes. And I had had to encourage Pam to get married in the first place\u2014<\/p>\n<p>that was step one\u2014just to have her willing to get married.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:We went to the second FamilyLife conference, which was just for staff. It was at Dulles Airport.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:So you were there.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:I was there.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014back in the \u201870s.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:They had done Williamsburg two weeks before; and then, they did the Dulles Airport. It was Mick Yoder, and Dennis Rainey, and\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Oh, yes; that's who did ours!<\/p>\n<p>Bill:\u2014and Ney Bailey, and Don Meredith.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:We were sitting there, listening to this weekend. I'm going, \u201cPam, what do you think?\u201d And she goes, \u201cYeah, yeah; I think we should get married.\u201d We go to meet with Ney Bailey. She's just told me this; and Ney goes, \u201cYou guys look great on paper. What are your thoughts? Are you excited about getting married?\u201d And Pam goes, \u201cNo!\u201d\u2014and starts\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You said, \u201cNo\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Pam:I\u2019m like, \u201cI don\u2019t know! I just don't think so!\u201d I was like a yo-yo. I was up and down and up and down. I was like, \u201cNo, I just want to serve Jesus. I want to go overseas,\u201d and \u201cIf you get married, you can't do that!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You had your life mapped out.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yes, she did.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:And he is from Indiana, and God hadn't called him into \u201cfull-time ministry.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bill:And she's in Colorado, and there's no mountains in Indiana.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:It's like, \u201cI'm doomed.\u201d Actually, Nancy Wilson\u2014whom we were talking about, who was on staff with Cru for almost 50 years\u2014she had on my cake: \"Doomed to marry such a groom.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Given that background, finally, Pam says, \u201cYes, I'll marry you.\u201d We get married with that enthusiasm level.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:No, I got excited.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yeah, you did; she got romantic later. God had really reflected to me that that was going to be my wife, and so I persisted. But had He not done that, I don't know that I could have really; it was almost\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, we met with Don Meredith.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Don said to her\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Pam:\u2014that morning of the end of the retreat.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:\u2014because of what she had said to Ney\u2014which, minutes before, she told me she was fine about [marriage]. Then, we meet with Don. Don listened to her story; and then, turned to me. Really didn't look at Pam again, and said, \u201cGive her six weeks to get through this. Make a decision one way or the other in terms of whether or not she wants to get married. If she says, \u2018No,\u2019 then you don't talk to each other for a minimum of six months; perhaps, a year,\u201d\u2014or fax\u2014because those were the options back then. That's what we agreed to do.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:He said this wasn't unusual because you have women who have the intention of serving Jesus. Marriage is an interruption to that; and later, of course, I learned marriage is part of God's plan.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:\u2014and interruptions are part of the course.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yes. Isn't that a good life lesson that we learned\/that you've learned?<\/p>\n<p>Well, as I think about you two, and even that, I want to say\u2014I don't know if I've ever told you guys this\u2014\u201cThere's always couples in our lives that we see, married couples; and we think, \u2018Oh, I want a marriage like that.\u2019\u201d I've always thought that of you two\u2014the love that you have\u2014you're super affectionate. You really like each other. And you can tell\u2014we stand in these meetings\u2014and you know how, sometimes, it's sickening when couples are so lovey to each other? I mean, Bill is just rubbing Pam's back.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:They actually took us to the elder board at one church we went to!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:What?!<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yeah, we had somebody who wrote\/said, \u201cThey're distracting during church, because he's always touching her back.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Really? You ended up in front of an elder board about that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:What a compliment.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, no. Bill was on the elder board. One of the elders goes, \u201cIs there a problem with too much love?\u201d \u2014he said that.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:\u201cThat's what we want to ban?\u2014too much love in our church?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Pam:\u2014\"between a married couple.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yeah, I know.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:It's really sweet.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Thanks, you guys.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Okay; so you have your first baby. Take us now into the next few years.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:We had Cari. It was like God woke up a nurturing gene in me I didn't even know existed.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Me too! When we had kids, Pam, I was the same: \u201cDo I want kids?\u201d\u2014it was very cerebral.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I didn't have this longing; but I thought, \u201cWell, we've been married six years; it's probably time.\u201d But I was\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:We didn't get pregnant on our honeymoon. Nope; I think God knew.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014which was His grace; I was only 19. But when I had that baby, it just all kicked in. You felt the same.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Yes, it was incredible. We kind of became known as child-holics. We just took our kid with us everywhere we went. We're like, \u201cOh, yeah; you just train them.\u201d So if you have to be in a meeting, or you're going out to dinner\u2014whatever\u2014you got to learn how to train your kids. Because I didn't want children to be an interruption to our life; we wanted to be the married ones who are bringing our kids along with this exciting journey.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And every mom is like, \u201cOh, she didn't have any colicky babies.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bill:We did have colicky babies. Some of that you have to work through, obviously, as you go through stages that the children may have differently; but by and large, we use the table\u2014the kitchen table, where we eat; the family table\u2014wherever that is in your home, to be the place of training. Kids stay in their chair from the beginning of the meal through devotions.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:What?! Even the baby in the high chair?<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Yes, even the baby in the high chair.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yeah, you did.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:We also had our kids sit with us in church.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Everyone's like, \u201cI need these people as my mentors.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, the thing is\u2014you go into a restaurant; kids are running around, or kids whining\u2014and it's not our kids. We're far from perfect, but if you just think about your dinner table being the training ground.<\/p>\n<p>Bill:It's the place.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:You're not training in the restaurant. You're living out [in the restaurant] what you've trained in the [home].<\/p>\n<p>Bill:And the table's where you learn respect for each other\u2014you hear the highs and lows of the day\u2014where you do a devotion at the end of the meal.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:You have political discussions; you have discussions about what you're observing in other families; what we need to work on as a family.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Having a baby didn't stop you. You're continuing doing a lot of the things you had been doing.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, so then, I went to my six-week checkup. My doctor said, \u201cHey, Pam, you guys need to talk about what you want to do as far as birth control.\u201d I said, \u201cOkay.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bill:\u201cToo late.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Pam:I came home; and I was like, \u201cBill, we got to talk about this. What do we want to do?\u201d He looked at me, and he goes,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bill:\u2014\"I think we should trust God for our kids.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Pam:I said, \u201cWhat? Did you talk to somebody, read a book, hear a podcast?\u201d\u2014well, there weren't podcasts then\u2014\u201ca radio program? Where in the world did that come from?\u201d I looked at him, and I said, \u201cYou are crazy! But I'll pray about it for a month.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You guys\u2014I just can't tell you\u2014I just feel like anytime you want to discuss this, that you can go back to God's Word. He has something to say to you. As I opened my Bible, it's like God says, \u201cChildren are a blessing,\u201d\u2014I'd always thought, \u201cChildren are an interruption. They're so noisy; and people don't control them, and they're just all over the place,\u201d\u2014and that children are fun, and children are meant to be an enjoyment for us. God really transformed my thinking in that month. What I want to say: \u201cIt wasn't my positive thinking. It was the Word of God that I went to, that spoke to me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bill:And I think, too, there's a balance in this. That's not to say that, if you don't take that posture, you're wrong. It is the fact that, had there been anything that was a health concern, anything that changed in our hearts that God was showing us, we'd respond to that.<\/p>\n<p>After we had our fifth one, my father-in-law said, \u201cI don't appreciate you making a brood mare out of my daughter,\u201d which is pretty strong.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Did he say that?!<\/p>\n<p>Bill:Oh, yeah; he really did.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Really?<\/p>\n<p>Bill: I said, \u201cIf we ever felt like Pam had any health issues, we would stop. But that's what we are both comfortable doing.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And that's the other issue: it needs to be something you, in accord\u2014strong accord\u2014agree to be willing to do, or not, in terms of the number of kids. If one person is overwhelmed, then I think that has to be weighed in.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, I think\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bill:And without them having to feel guilty that they don't have enough faith or anything like that.<\/p>\n<p>Pam:Well, I see a lot of times people, they have a two- or three-year-old and a newborn or even six months old, and they're like, \u201cOh, man, I can't handle anymore!\u201d And it's true; you can't because it's overwhelming. But it's just like a new job\u2014it's something that you're learning\u2014you're building skills. You don't even realize\u2014\u201cWhoever thought you had to have skills to be a parent?\u201d\u2014I didn\u2019t; I knew nothing.<\/p>\n<p>As I was mentored by other moms\u2014learned from other moms\u2014start getting exposed to homeschooling, public schools, just whatever, I just began to absorb all this other information from other people that was really incredible and really helpful for me as a person.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I think the thing that stands out to me is your surrender. If there's a theme to your lives, it's that. The fact that you would go to God, and say, \u201cGod, what do You want us to do about our kids, about birth control? We give it to You.\u201d We're not all willing to go there. There are certain things that we're allowing God to have; but there are certain things that's easy to hold onto because, we want to control it. But your lives have been a picture of surrender, both of you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And tomorrow, you're going to hear about what surrender really looks like when it gets hard.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014especially, if you've lost a child. We're going to talk about that tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Well, we've been talking with our friends, Bill and Pam Mutz. I got to say, \u201cEvery time I'm with them, I\u2019m just smiling.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We've known them for so long, and we love them.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:They bring joy. Bill and Pam Mutz have a new book called Richer by the Dozen. Get it wherever you buy your books. Go get one now; maybe, get a couple.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife.com<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/315452","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=315452"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/312569"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=315452"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=315452"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=315452"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=315452"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=315452"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=315452"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}