{"id":315148,"date":"2025-05-28T03:34:37","date_gmt":"2025-05-28T07:34:37","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/dating-done-right-sean-perron-spencer-harmon-2\/"},"modified":"2025-06-17T10:51:17","modified_gmt":"2025-06-17T14:51:17","slug":"dating-done-right-sean-perron-spencer-harmon-2","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/dating-done-right-sean-perron-spencer-harmon-2\/","title":{"rendered":"Dating Done Right &#8211; Sean Perron &#038; Spencer Harmon"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>You\u2019re dating\u2014but man, do things get sticky. Authors Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon help you approach marriage on purpose, and done right.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>You\u2019re dating\u2014but man, do things get sticky. Authors Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon help you approach marriage on purpose, and done right.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":312569,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/fbe4f6e6-cd19-47b7-8ee9-b2dd01067012\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:26:42","filesize":"24.48M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2025-05-28 03:34:37","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2817,2934,2957],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[8679],"cwp_profile":[9893,9894],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-315148","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-choosing-a-spouse","category-relationships","category-singleness","podcast_series-relationships-done-right-sean-perron-and-spencer-harmon","cwp_profile-sean-perron","cwp_profile-spencer-harmon","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2025\/02\/image_bbee74.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/315148\/dating-done-right-sean-perron-spencer-harmon-2","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/315148\/dating-done-right-sean-perron-spencer-harmon-2","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"z8DqZncVTL\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/dating-done-right-sean-perron-spencer-harmon-2\/\">Dating Done Right &#8211; Sean Perron &#038; Spencer Harmon<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/dating-done-right-sean-perron-spencer-harmon-2\/embed\/#?secret=z8DqZncVTL\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Dating Done Right &#8211; Sean Perron &#038; Spencer Harmon&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"z8DqZncVTL\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["fbe4f6e6-cd19-47b7-8ee9-b2dd01067012"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/fbe4f6e6-cd19-47b7-8ee9-b2dd01067012\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:26:42"],"filesize":["24.48M"],"_thumbnail_id":["312569"],"show_notes":["<ul>\n<li>Take a deeper dive and grab a copy of Sean Perron and Spencer Hamron's series \"Letters to a Romantic.\" <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-creator\/sean-perron\/\">Check it out here!<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Every donation to FamilyLife in May will be matched. <a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/may-2025\/?cru_source=D0002408AT&amp;cru_medium=podcast&amp;cru_campaign=May2025\">Donate today on our website<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr \/>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-05-28.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>Dating Done Right<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Relationships Done Right (Day 1 of 3)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:May 28, 2025<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: One of the things you have to think about with purity is, why are you doing it? Why? And if the motive is: \u201cI am doing this so that my honeymoon will be amazing,\u201d you will be disappointed.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Because your category of amazing is probably not calibrated according to God\u2019s Word.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the<\/p>\n<p>relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So we're talking about something we don't talk about enough on this program.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What's that?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Dating and engagement.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So how about you tell real quick\u2014you can do this in 30 seconds\u2014our<\/p>\n<p>engagement story. You didn't know I was going to do that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I can do it in 30 seconds?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Okay; we're driving to a conference, senior year; it's called Senior Panic<\/p>\n<p>because it's a conference for Christians like: \u201cWhat are you going to do after you<\/p>\n<p>graduate?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And I'm 19 years old; you're 22.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019re in love; we decided we're going to get married, but she doesn't know I'm<\/p>\n<p>going to do this. I say, \u201cHey, the Bible passage where it says the two shall become one<\/p>\n<p>and leave their mother and father.\u201d I go, \u201cWhat do you think it means by one flesh?\u201d And<\/p>\n<p>she's like\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I said, \u201cOh, I think I put my Bible in the trunk; I wish I had it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: No, no; she doesn't remember\u2014I set this all up\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I did say that!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014she goes, \u201cI'm not sure what it means.\u201d I go, \u201cIt's in Mark 10, and my Bible's<\/p>\n<p>right behind my driver's seat.\u201d I stashed it there; she grabs it. I said, \u201cMark 10, Jesus<\/p>\n<p>quotes that from Genesis.\u201d She opens it up, and the ring has been cut into that Bible.<\/p>\n<p>The fact that I don't have that Bible in the studio with me today\u2014I still have it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We have it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014you could open it up; you see this little shape of a very small engagement ring;<\/p>\n<p>we had no money.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But it was a great way to propose.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And it was pivotal\u2014it is a long story\u2014but that day determined our future because of the conference we went to; that's a whole other story.<\/p>\n<p>Today, we\u2019ve got two experts. [Laughter] I guess we could call you guys experts. We\u2019ve got Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon in the studio, who\u2019ve written a book! Two guys\u2014who are really good friends and work at the same church\u2014wrote a book on dating, and engagement, and marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Glad to be here.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Thanks for having us!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Tell our listeners a little bit\u2014I mentioned you work in the same church\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014both married; you\u2019ve got kids. Give us your story.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: I have been married to my wife Taylor; we\u2019ve got four kids. I like to joke that our life is this peaceful Thomas Kincaide painting. [Laughter] No, I\u2019m just kidding!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I don\u2019t think so.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: We\u2019ve been friends since 2009.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Too long. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: We went to college together and have been best friends for a really long time now. These books are just the fruit of our friendship, and walking through these seasons of life at the same time, and talking about how to apply God\u2019s Word to these times of our life that were really relevant.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: My wife and I met in high school. We didn\u2019t date in high school, but that\u2019s where we met. We have three kids.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: These three books I\u2019m holding in my hand: Letters to a Romantic on Dating, [Letters to a Romantic] on Engagement, and [Letters to a Romantic] on Marriage. Where did these come from, and why \u201cletters to a romantic\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Which isn\u2019t typical of two guys, who are friends, writing these books. It\u2019s pretty unique.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, a few things; we were in these seasons when we were in Bible college, in seminary; and we wanted to have these\u2014basically, it started as a blog originally\u2014we wanted to document: \u201cOkay, we\u2019re not just soaking up wisdom that we\u2019ve received from godly men and women, and that we\u2019ve been reading in the Bible. We want to help others. We want to help others in the season that we\u2019re currently in.\u201d Because a lot of the advice that you get comes from great, godly couples who are decades removed\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, right.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: \u2014decades removed\u2014we thought, \u201cYou know what? We\u2019re in it. We\u2019re digesting it; we\u2019re walking through it. We want to share that.\u201d That was the genesis of the letters. The letters\u2014we wanted to write in such a way that would be interesting to people; that they felt personal\u2014we didn\u2019t just want them to be theology, ivory tower. We wanted them to be personal and relevant; and we also wanted them to be short and digestible, actually, for people to read them.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Sean: So that was the letters concept; a different format that would catch people\u2019s attention. It did; we\u2019re thankful.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Spencer, you wrote an interesting blog, right?\u2014that sort of sparked this<\/p>\n<p>whole thing?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It went viral!<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yeah, so it was actually really funny. Taylor and I were getting married. I<\/p>\n<p>wrote a blog; and I said, \u201cHey, I want to explain the gospel to my family before our<\/p>\n<p>wedding day.\u201d And one of the ways I can do that is to talk about my wife's testimony;<\/p>\n<p>and then, to talk about my testimony; they\u2019re very different. Taylor has a background\u2014<\/p>\n<p>grew up in church; a lot of rebellion\u2014and has a amazing story. One of the parts of her<\/p>\n<p>testimony, she has tattoos. I grew up like a clean-cut homeschool Christian kid; and<\/p>\n<p>then, we get married. I wrote this blog and\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Have you gotten any tattoos since you\u2019ve been married?<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: No, I've stayed un-tatted; but I wrote this blog. It was called: \u201cMy Wife Has<\/p>\n<p>Tattoos\u201d; published it at 11:00 pm at night. I'm sure that's not the most optimal time to<\/p>\n<p>release a blog\u2014the night before I get married\u2014\"Hey Lord, use this to make Yourself<\/p>\n<p>known to my family.\u201d Wake up the next morning\u2014don't even think about it\u2014we're taking<\/p>\n<p>pictures. Sean has his phone out; and he's like, \u201cHey Spencer, there's like 50,000<\/p>\n<p>people who have read this blog,\u201d which we were blogging. It was like our college friends<\/p>\n<p>were really blogged.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: \u2014and our parents.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes, yes; \u201cLove you, Mom.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So then, right before we walk out to the altar, he's like, \u201cHey man, we're up to 250,000<\/p>\n<p>people.\u201d Then we get married, and I go on my honeymoon. I forget that anything else<\/p>\n<p>exists, because I'm on my honeymoon with my wife. I get back, and a million people had<\/p>\n<p>read it. It had been read on radio stations\u2014and all these things that happened.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: It struck a nerve.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: It struck a nerve. And one of the things\u2014this actually gets back to the<\/p>\n<p>topic of the books\u2014we wrote these, not claiming to be experts; we wanted to be kind of<\/p>\n<p>like these fellow pilgrims, or these guys who are in the trenches with you\u2014maybe, just<\/p>\n<p>like a year or two ahead\u2014to say: \u201cHey, we remember what it was like to try to fight for<\/p>\n<p>purity when you're dating,\u201d \u201cWe remember what it was like to have conversations about<\/p>\n<p>the holidays, when you're engaged; and \u2018What are we going to do this Christmas?\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And it wasn't 40 years ago; it was recent history.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I like that.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: And then, we wanted to write something really accessible. The way we talk<\/p>\n<p>about the book is\u2014because we haven't been married for 40 years, we can't have the<\/p>\n<p>whole conversation with people\u2014but we said, \u201cWe want to start the conversation. So<\/p>\n<p>let's write these letters\u2014make them really accessible, really readable\u2014and kickstart the<\/p>\n<p>conversation that someone could read with somebody else.\u201d There's questions at the<\/p>\n<p>end, and we're just trying to kickstart a conversation that would be much more full.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: \u2014with topics that are controversial, but also super relevant that people are<\/p>\n<p>asking.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What are some of those? What were the things that were burning in your heart, that you thought, \u201cWe need to write about this\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Okay, I\u2019ll throw out a few.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: And I\u2019d be interested to hear your list [Spencer].<\/p>\n<p>Physical boundaries; kissing, in particular. We took a controversial position on that.<\/p>\n<p>Breaking up: how to break up with someone. Should you break up with someone?<\/p>\n<p>Do you have a bad relationship? What makes a good relationship?<\/p>\n<p>Blame after a breakup.<\/p>\n<p>Those were all categories we were dealing with at the time.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer:<\/p>\n<p>Sexual history; What do you do if one of you is a virgin and the other of you isn\u2019t?<\/p>\n<p>What do you do\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Sean: \u2014if you sin during the relationship?<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes, what do you do when you sin then? Should you break up?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:<\/p>\n<p>What happens? Should you get married if you cross the line physically?<\/p>\n<p>Thinking about, with the engagement book:<\/p>\n<p>How do you think about this brand-new set of parents that comes into your life, called your \u201cin-laws\u201d? How do you navigate conversations about that?<\/p>\n<p>Even\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We had all these questions!<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Oh, my goodness.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And there was nowhere to go.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: It\u2019s so relevant.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re right! Somebody doesn\u2019t want somebody our age\u2014\u201cCan you guys even remember that long ago?\u201d\u2014but you guys were just there.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And it\u2019s a different culture that you\u2019ve grown up in, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, you just raised all these\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I know!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014I guarantee\u2014here\u2019s what we\u2019ve got: we\u2019ve got singles listening. But we also have parents of kids\u2014teenagers and above\u2014who are like, \u201cHow do I help my kids understand this whole thing?\u201d You\u2019re talking to both crowds; at least, a lot of parents are listening, but singles as well.<\/p>\n<p>So any one of those topics\u2014I'll start here\u2014I was speaking one time on manhood at my<\/p>\n<p>church. My assistant, Debbie, who's been my assistant for 30 years, knows I'm<\/p>\n<p>preaching on that that morning. She goes, \u201cYou won't believe this. My husband Andy<\/p>\n<p>and I are sitting at a Big Boy,\u201d\u2014you guys know what a Big Boy is?<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: A delicious Big Boy.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You understand.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: I\u2019m from Cincinnatti, so I know.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014\"We're sitting at a Big Boy, and there's two single guys in the booth beside us.<\/p>\n<p>We can hear their conversation.\u201d This is the text: \u201cOne guy says, \u2018I want to break up with<\/p>\n<p>my girlfriend. I don't know how to do it; I'm sort of afraid.\u2019 His buddy says, \u2018Be a man;<\/p>\n<p>send her a text.\u2019\u201d That was not a funny conversation; that was\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That was for real.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Of course, I used it in the sermon that morning: \u201cYou want to talk about what a<\/p>\n<p>man is? That's not what a man does.\u2019\u201d I don't think we know, these days, what to do.<\/p>\n<p>You just mentioned one; do you want to go there?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Let\u2019s talk about kissing.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Sure; Sean wrote the chapter on kissing. Let me set it up.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Do you see how he just [passed that away]?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, set it up.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: No, no; I want to set it up, because this truly is a controversial thing. Let me start with this: neither of us kissed our wife until the day we got married, okay?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014and you regret it.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: We\u2019re so thankful we didn\u2019t. Christians disagree on this stuff, but we really think that this is wisdom; so we knew we needed to write a chapter on this. Sean took it and gave seven reasons not to kiss.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I read them all.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That was brave of you, too, Sean.<\/p>\n<p>So many women that I\u2019ve talked to\u2014and younger women\u2014are like, \u201cI don\u2019t want that to happen, because the first one could be super-awkward; and I don\u2019t want to be in front of all these people. It just feels like it\u2019s so wrong!\u201d I love that you\u2019re tackling this.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, yes; everyone thinks about it. Everyone wants to kiss the person that they\u2019re dating or engaged to, certainly. Everyone\u2019s thinking about it, but most people don\u2019t think that the Bible has anything to say about it. But the Bible is super-relevant.<\/p>\n<p>One of the reasons\u2014just to jump right in\u2014is the Bible has a category of brother and sister. You are a brother and sister in Christ, and that is the category of relationship you\u2019re in unless you\u2019re married. When you\u2019re married, you\u2019re still brother and sister; but you just have this other covenantal relationship that the Bible talks about, where there is a sexual element to it. That sexual element is not intended ever to be the case for brothers and sisters in Christ; that\u2019s how the Bible presents it. In fact, 1 Timothy 5:2 says, \u201cTreat your sisters with absolute purity.\u201d If you would treat your sister that way\u2014your physical sister\u2014then those are the boundaries the Bible presents the categories for how you should treat the person that you\u2019re not married to. You\u2019re still brother and sister in Christ. That\u2019s one example.<\/p>\n<p>Then, you get to other passages that talk about marriage is to represent Jesus\u2019s life, death, and resurrection. In Ephesians 5, Jesus presents the bride \u201cspotless and without wrinkle or any such blemish.\u201d Well, if your goal, as the man in the relationship, is to reflect Jesus\u2014and to present your bride, without spot, or wrinkle, or any such blemish\u2014then you want to pursue absolute purity. \u201cHow can I do everything I can to have absolute purity in my relationship?\u201d I think that is a good indicator that you should not kiss.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Let me tell you a story. The night before Taylor and I got married, we had our rehearsal dinner. We took a walk together before we went home for the night. We both know we haven\u2019t kissed; and we both know that, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to kiss in front of 400 people. \u201cThis is the first kiss!\u201d We talked about it; we said, \u201cOkay, so we\u2019re not going to kiss right now, but let\u2019s just make sure that\u2014my head\u2019s going to go this way [Laughter], and your head\u2019s going to go that way\u2014and then, we\u2019ll move in. Does that sound good?\u201d We agreed to it before.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s a funny story, right? We talked about it; because we were sensitive to, \u201cHey, we\u2019re about to have our first kiss in front of a bunch of people, and we don\u2019t want it to be awkward.\u201d But let me say this: I have never met a couple, who saved physical affection for marriage, who said, \u201cYou know what? I really wish we would have kissed more when we were dating.\u201d I\u2019ve never met them; but I\u2019ve met a whole bunch of people, who have said, after they get married, \u201cMan, we really went too far; and we had to untangle some stuff in our marriage after we\u2019d crossed all these boundaries we didn\u2019t want to break.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It's actually\u2014one of the things that Taylor and I talked about so much\u2014because we wanted to kiss each other, okay? We were very much attracted to each other; but we talked about this concept of storing up pleasure for later: \u201cWe want to honor God in this season of our life, honor this biblical category of brother and sister. And then, we\u2019re going to trust God that He\u2019s going to bless this, because it\u2019s our desire to honor Him right now. We\u2019re going to store this up for later.\u201d And the Lord did bless that; we\u2019re so thankful. We kiss all the time now. [Laughter] And we\u2019re so thankful for it.<\/p>\n<p>I think it is something that\u2014the way we talk about it in the book is\u2014we really want couples to consider, because God really does value our holiness and our purity, especially in this season of dating. Very, very quickly, it goes in directions we don\u2019t want it to go; because it\u2019s meant to go somewhere. That\u2019s the way God designed it.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: God cares more about our heart than He does our lips. What\u2019s most important is not that you just didn\u2019t, technically, kiss. Jenny and I both had previous relationships\u2014dating relationships\u2014and we both kissed other people previously. The point is not that you\u2019d be a legalist or a Pharisee, to say, \u201cOh, our lips didn\u2019t touch before we said our vows.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The point is: God wants us to draw near to Him, not just with our lips, but with our hearts first. When you do that, it becomes this great thing: \u201cYou know what? We don\u2019t need to kiss right now. We don\u2019t need to have any physical, romantic relationship before marriage. There\u2019s no need because our hearts are filled with love for each other, selflessly. Our hearts are filled with love for the Lord.\u201d The Lord does that when He changes the heart; but if you reverse it, and you start with your lips and then get to your heart, then you get all weird. You don\u2019t honor God, ironically, because God cares about the heart.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You know, it\u2019s interesting\u2014I\u2019ve never had this thought before\u2014but in Luke 6:44-45; you\u2019re probably familiar\u2014Jesus says your mouth (or your tongue or your words) is an overflow of your heart.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, that\u2019s exactly it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019ve always preached, as a preacher, \u201cIf you want to change your words, you\u2019ve got to start with your heart.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Amen.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It isn\u2019t: \u201cI\u2019ve got to stop cursing or slandering God\u201d; He says, \u201cYou start with your heart.\u201d I\u2019ve never considered what you just said.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Maybe your lips are an overflow of your heart\u2014even when it comes to kissing or sexual purity outside of marriage\u2014it\u2019s an overflow.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s a beautiful way to think about it. But here\u2019s my question: \u201cWhat\u2019s the pushback?\u201d Have you heard a lot?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Oh, yes; a lot.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wait, let me get to a little pushback.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, look at this; she wants to take over.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because I\u2019ve talked to some women who\u2019ve grown up in the Purity Culture\u2014some of what maybe wasn\u2019t said\u2014but maybe, what they heard was: \u201cHey, if you remain pure, God is just going to bless your physical relationship.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And then, their physical relationship: they\u2019re thinking their honeymoon\u2019s going to be amazing!<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And it can be difficult or painful, and it doesn\u2019t just get better overnight; it can take a while. What would you guys say to those people, who are like, \u201cWait a minute! I thought this was going to be this amazing blessing, physically; and it\u2019s really hard right now\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes, I think\u2014you can tackle this, too\u2014but I think one of the things I want to say\u2014and I\u2019m really sensitive to that, too; because we grew up at the height of Purity Culture\u2014where some people felt like it was a bait-and-switch: \u201cYou do this: you go to this banquet; you wear these rings, and everything about your marriage is going to be great.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: \u201cTrue love waits, and it\u2019s always amazing!\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Here\u2019s the problem; here\u2019s where I think\u2014and this is one of the corrections we were trying to make in our book\u2014one of the things you have to think about with purity is why are you doing it? Why? And if the motive is: \u201cI am doing this so that my honeymoon will be amazing,\u201d you will be disappointed.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Because your category of amazing is probably not calibrated according to God\u2019s Word. The reason we pursue purity is to honor God and to glorify Him, because we believe that God\u2019s way truly is best. There actually are \u201cpleasures at God\u2019s right hand forevermore.\u201d So the motive of a Christian\u2019s heart, in all of life\u2014and we just seek to apply this in every area of relationships\u2014is: \u201cMy heart, first, is to honor Christ. He has loved me with incredible love. I\u2019m secure in Him; He has given me incredible promises. I am going to now walk faithfully with Him, and He is my reward at the end of the day. He\u2019s my treasure.\u201d All these other blessings are additions that He does give to us, but the motive is there.<\/p>\n<p>I think that was one of the missteps of the Purity Culture; it was often holding in front of you this marital reward that isn\u2019t always promised. I mean, you can get married, and be on your way to your awesome honeymoon\u2014and get in a car wreck and never be able to have sex\u2014what then? Is Jesus still your treasure? I think that has to be the motive, at the core, of why we\u2019re doing these things.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It seems, also, that moral purity or sexual purity was the goal of purity, when the truth is, in Christ, I am already pure.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Amen!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I could be sexually pure, and impure in other ways; and I\u2019m only thinking about one area.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s part of it as well.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, amen. It\u2019s a redefinition of pleasure: \u201cIf you want to save your life, you\u2019re going to lose it; but if you lose your life for My sake and the sake of the gospel, you\u2019ll find it.\u201d When your pleasure in sex is selfless\u2014\"I\u2019m going to delight the other person. I\u2019m going to put their desires first, all for the glory of God,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s when you have joy. When you do that, then you\u2019re not worried about looking awkward on your wedding day; because that\u2019s not the goal. The goal is not for you to look awesome on your wedding day. [Laughter] The goal is for Jesus to look awesome, and for you to selflessly love the other person like Christ has loved you.<\/p>\n<p>If you have a strange and awkward wedding night\u2014we talk about preparing for your wedding night in the engagement book\u2014but if you have a strange and awkward wedding night, well, guess what? It\u2019s not about you!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You get a few more nights, too!<\/p>\n<p>Sean: That\u2019s right; you\u2019ve got a long time to go. [Laughter] And it\u2019s the Lord who you\u2019re trying to honor, and your joy is in serving your spouse; your joy is in serving them, not in being served.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What do you say\u2014and I know you wrote about this, and I read it; you wrote several chapters on it\u2014\u201cOkay, that\u2019s been our goal\u201d; and they mess up\/they blow it? They\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: They kiss.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: They kiss, or they go beyond that, and they violate their own barrier. What do you say to them? And I loved what you wrote. I\u2019m just asking you to tell our listeners what you wrote.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, what\u2019s most important is: do you have godly sorrow or worldly sorrow? Because that sorrow is centered on God Himself. Are you bummed that you messed up your boundary because, \u201cOh, man!\u201d; you now don\u2019t have a perfect score. Are you bummed because you got caught? Are you bummed for some sort of worldly reason?<\/p>\n<p>Or are you bummed because, according to Psalm 51, \u201cAgainst You and You alone, O Lord, have I sinned\u201d? Are you bummed because you fear God? \u201cYou know what? I was sexually immoral. I did sin, and I\u2019ve broken God\u2019s heart, and I need His forgiveness.\u201d If that\u2019s at the center of it\u2014if you want God\u2019s forgiveness; and you want to be made pure; you want clean hands and a pure heart\u2014then God wants you to turn to Him. He will forgive you for anything you have done. He will forgive you right away, immediately. That\u2019s why Jesus died on the cross; He loves you.<\/p>\n<p>When you sin, that\u2019s where you need to run. Most people hide when they sin. They mess up; then, they go underground. God says, \u201cNo, I bled so that you can come to Me and be forgiven.\u201d How someone\u2019s heart responds is a huge determiner in the relationship of whether or not it should make it, whether or not it will make it. It really shows: \u201cIs God the focus or not?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes, one of the things that\u2019s true on most\u2014in every\u2014relationship, especially dating relationships, is everybody comes with a sexual history. Even people who are squeaky-clean virgins on their wedding night, they have a sexual history. Everyone has sinned sexually; everybody is a sexual sinner. The question is: \u201cWhen you fall into sin together, or one of you is bringing more sexual baggage into the relationship than the other, \u2018Well, what do we do with our sin?\u2019 What you do with your sin is what the Bible tells you to do with all of your sin\u20141 John 1:9\u2014\u2018If you confess your sin, He is faithful and just to forgive you of sin and to cleanse you of all unrighteousness.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>A lot of couples go into their marriage, their wedding night, with guilt. The question is: \u201cDoes the Bible have anything to say about that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cOh, you were pure all of your life, and I wasn\u2019t! Are you better than me? Am I less than because of you?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The answer to that question is: \u201cIn Jesus Christ, you\u2019re pure. God takes all of your dark sin, and He makes you white as snow.\u201d That\u2019s one of the\u2014not everybody has a white wedding dress on their wedding day\u2014but one of the symbols of a white wedding dress is this picture of the Church being presented to Jesus as a bride without spot or blemish.<\/p>\n<p>The reality is that, when two Christians get married to each other, they are getting married to each other in Jesus Christ, and they are forgiven; they are accepted; they are made clean. And that applies to their sexual history. One of the things that we have to do as believers is to say, \u201cHow will I think about my past? Will I think about my past according to my understanding and the way I\u2019m going to interpret reality, or the way some other person interprets reality? Or will I remember my past the way God remembers my past?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The way God remembers my past\u2014if I\u2019ve put my faith in Christ, and if I\u2019ve repented of my sins\u2014is: He remembers my past in Christ, which means without spot, or wrinkle, or blemish. When a couple believes that\u2014and they may have the most complex, complicated, tangled up, crazy sexual story; I\u2019ve watched it as a pastor, first-hand\u2014they can enter into the marriage bed together, for the first time, pure in Christ! That\u2019s the beauty of the gospel, and that\u2019s the foundation of marriage.<\/p>\n<p>What we\u2019re seeking to do in these books is to say: \u201cLet\u2019s put the gospel of Jesus Christ, and His grace, and His love, right in the middle of dating, engagement, and marriage. Let\u2019s see what happens as we apply it to every single issue practically.\u201d And where it really lands home is in some of those serious areas of our sexual sin.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was just thinking of myself, as a 19-year-old, about to get married. I grew up with pornography in my background, because the family had it around. I grew up with sexual abuse. I lost my virginity at 15; and then, I become a Chistian. Now, I\u2019m going to marry Dave; and we\u2019ve remained sexually pure with one another. But I did not feel pure at all. The words that you just spoke\u2014if I\u2019d had someone\/a 32-year-old say [that] to me\u2014and I knew the gospel; I knew Jesus\u2019 love\u2014and I thought, \u201cHe\u2019s forgiven me, but He doesn\u2019t see me as pure.\u201d I think so many of us have such trashed backgrounds.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Things have been done to us; so we walk into a marriage, thinking, \u201cOh, I\u2019m garbage. Jesus forgave me, but\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014\u201cI\u2019m dirty.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014\u201cI\u2019m dirty,\u201d yes. Thank you for those words. It\u2019s a good reminder to all of us that: \u201cOh, the death and the resurrection of Christ makes us as white as snow.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Amen!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s just good news.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: One of the things that I think we missed in the Purity Culture movement, a couple decades ago, is we missed the fact that Jesus, who instructs us, is also the Jesus who forgives us when we fail His instructions. In the Purity Culture, you get this kind of movement: \u201cHey, let\u2019s try to really honor God with our sexual purity.\u201d \u201cWell, what if you don\u2019t? What happens then?\u201d\u2014people would go into hiding.<\/p>\n<p>We have to hold out both: \u201cThese are the real instructions and commands of Christ, really relevant to this season of life. Let\u2019s honor those! Let\u2019s hold them up,\u201d and \u201cLet\u2019s also hold up this gospel of grace, when we do fail, to say, \u2018Bring your sin into the light; you don\u2019t have to hide it,\u201d \u201cLet\u2019s talk about sex; let\u2019s talk about sin; let\u2019s talk about all these dimensions of romantic relationships with openness and honesty, because Jesus provides grace for us to both obey Him and to be forgiven by Him.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s awesome.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: And for couples, who have sinned; and maybe, they want to give up, saying, \u201cWell, it doesn\u2019t matter anymore!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cIt\u2019s too late now!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: That\u2019s unbiblical, too.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Because there\u2019s faith and repentance. Jesus, who saves you and changes you, will give you the power to then obey Him. Don\u2019t give up! Instead, turn; repent. Put off the old, and put on the new; put off lust, and put on purity; put off sexual sin, and put on righteousness. God will empower you if you ask Him.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: He guarantees it!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s awesome.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, you guys said it all. I will just say to the listener who, maybe like Ann, has felt dirty\u2014maybe even right now you may be sitting with your boyfriend or girlfriend, or maybe you\u2019re in your first few years of marriage\u2014and you\u2019re feeling like, \u201cI didn\u2019t adhere to God\u2019s standard,\u201d and you\u2019ve felt \u201cless than.\u201d I hope you hear what these guys just said.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: The truth of the gospel\u2014I think you did what Tim Keller has always said when he preaches; you say, \u201cHere\u2019s the standard from God\u2019s Word\u201d; then, he says, \u201cMost people end there, and the preacher\u2019s done. People run out and go, \u2018I\u2019ve got to try as hard as I can to do it.\u2019\u201d He goes, \u201cBefore they leave the room, you\u2019d better say, \u2018And you\u2019ll never be able to meet that standard\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014\u201c\u2019unless you surrender to Christ.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Amen.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201c\u2019He will give you the power to do it.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I just want to say to you, who are listening: \u201cYou can\u2019t do this! I can\u2019t do this. Christ has done this!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Amen.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: If you\u2019re struggling right now, I would say, \u201cTogether, get on your knees as a couple.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We did this.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014all the time.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And just say, \u201cI surrender. God, we can\u2019t do this; but we want to, and You can do it in us. We surrender our relationship to You. Do it in us, and we will follow You.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Praise God.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cAnd when we don\u2019t, we\u2019ll come back to the grace in the blood of Jesus, and we\u2019ll get up and do it right again.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today. We're Ann and Dave Wilson. And we've been<\/p>\n<p>talking with Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon about their book, Letters to a Romantic.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014which is really good, as you could tell from our conversation. And I would<\/p>\n<p>encourage you to pick up their book series called Letters to a Romantic; there's one on<\/p>\n<p>dating, on engagement, and on the first years of marriage. They're in our show notes;<\/p>\n<p>go to FamilyLifeToday.com; click the link there, and get any one of those, or all of<\/p>\n<p>them.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife.com<\/p>\n"],"_edit_lock":["1750172007:47000"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_452969bc644f3bb553b82ea2b4e7bec9fa7bc523":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" \/]"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_atts_452969bc644f3bb553b82ea2b4e7bec9fa7bc523":["a:17:{s:2:\"to\";s:29:\"margaret.coyle@familylife.com\";s:7:\"subject\";s:78:\"[FamilyLife - A Cru Ministry] Dating Done Right - Sean Perron & Spencer Harmon\";s:12:\"show_subject\";s:2:\"no\";s:6:\"widget\";i:0;s:14:\"block_template\";N;s:19:\"block_template_part\";N;s:2:\"id\";i:315148;s:18:\"submit_button_text\";s:6:\"Submit\";s:14:\"customThankyou\";s:0:\"\";s:21:\"customThankyouHeading\";s:26:\"Your message has been sent\";s:21:\"customThankyouMessage\";s:30:\"Thank you for your 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dating\u2014but man, do things get sticky. Authors Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon help you approach marriage on purpose, and done right.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>Take a deeper dive and grab a copy of Sean Perron and Spencer Hamron's series \"Letters to a Romantic.\" <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-creator\/sean-perron\/\">Check it out here!<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Every donation to FamilyLife in May will be matched. <a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/may-2025\/?cru_source=D0002408AT&amp;cru_medium=podcast&amp;cru_campaign=May2025\">Donate today on our website<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr \/>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-05-28.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>Dating Done Right<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Relationships Done Right (Day 1 of 3)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:May 28, 2025<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: One of the things you have to think about with purity is, why are you doing it? Why? And if the motive is: \u201cI am doing this so that my honeymoon will be amazing,\u201d you will be disappointed.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Because your category of amazing is probably not calibrated according to God\u2019s Word.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the<\/p>\n<p>relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So we're talking about something we don't talk about enough on this program.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What's that?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Dating and engagement.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So how about you tell real quick\u2014you can do this in 30 seconds\u2014our<\/p>\n<p>engagement story. You didn't know I was going to do that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I can do it in 30 seconds?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Okay; we're driving to a conference, senior year; it's called Senior Panic<\/p>\n<p>because it's a conference for Christians like: \u201cWhat are you going to do after you<\/p>\n<p>graduate?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And I'm 19 years old; you're 22.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019re in love; we decided we're going to get married, but she doesn't know I'm<\/p>\n<p>going to do this. I say, \u201cHey, the Bible passage where it says the two shall become one<\/p>\n<p>and leave their mother and father.\u201d I go, \u201cWhat do you think it means by one flesh?\u201d And<\/p>\n<p>she's like\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I said, \u201cOh, I think I put my Bible in the trunk; I wish I had it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: No, no; she doesn't remember\u2014I set this all up\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I did say that!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014she goes, \u201cI'm not sure what it means.\u201d I go, \u201cIt's in Mark 10, and my Bible's<\/p>\n<p>right behind my driver's seat.\u201d I stashed it there; she grabs it. I said, \u201cMark 10, Jesus<\/p>\n<p>quotes that from Genesis.\u201d She opens it up, and the ring has been cut into that Bible.<\/p>\n<p>The fact that I don't have that Bible in the studio with me today\u2014I still have it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We have it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014you could open it up; you see this little shape of a very small engagement ring;<\/p>\n<p>we had no money.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But it was a great way to propose.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And it was pivotal\u2014it is a long story\u2014but that day determined our future because of the conference we went to; that's a whole other story.<\/p>\n<p>Today, we\u2019ve got two experts. [Laughter] I guess we could call you guys experts. We\u2019ve got Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon in the studio, who\u2019ve written a book! Two guys\u2014who are really good friends and work at the same church\u2014wrote a book on dating, and engagement, and marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Glad to be here.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Thanks for having us!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Tell our listeners a little bit\u2014I mentioned you work in the same church\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014both married; you\u2019ve got kids. Give us your story.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: I have been married to my wife Taylor; we\u2019ve got four kids. I like to joke that our life is this peaceful Thomas Kincaide painting. [Laughter] No, I\u2019m just kidding!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I don\u2019t think so.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: We\u2019ve been friends since 2009.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Too long. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: We went to college together and have been best friends for a really long time now. These books are just the fruit of our friendship, and walking through these seasons of life at the same time, and talking about how to apply God\u2019s Word to these times of our life that were really relevant.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: My wife and I met in high school. We didn\u2019t date in high school, but that\u2019s where we met. We have three kids.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: These three books I\u2019m holding in my hand: Letters to a Romantic on Dating, [Letters to a Romantic] on Engagement, and [Letters to a Romantic] on Marriage. Where did these come from, and why \u201cletters to a romantic\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Which isn\u2019t typical of two guys, who are friends, writing these books. It\u2019s pretty unique.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, a few things; we were in these seasons when we were in Bible college, in seminary; and we wanted to have these\u2014basically, it started as a blog originally\u2014we wanted to document: \u201cOkay, we\u2019re not just soaking up wisdom that we\u2019ve received from godly men and women, and that we\u2019ve been reading in the Bible. We want to help others. We want to help others in the season that we\u2019re currently in.\u201d Because a lot of the advice that you get comes from great, godly couples who are decades removed\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, right.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: \u2014decades removed\u2014we thought, \u201cYou know what? We\u2019re in it. We\u2019re digesting it; we\u2019re walking through it. We want to share that.\u201d That was the genesis of the letters. The letters\u2014we wanted to write in such a way that would be interesting to people; that they felt personal\u2014we didn\u2019t just want them to be theology, ivory tower. We wanted them to be personal and relevant; and we also wanted them to be short and digestible, actually, for people to read them.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Sean: So that was the letters concept; a different format that would catch people\u2019s attention. It did; we\u2019re thankful.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Spencer, you wrote an interesting blog, right?\u2014that sort of sparked this<\/p>\n<p>whole thing?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It went viral!<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yeah, so it was actually really funny. Taylor and I were getting married. I<\/p>\n<p>wrote a blog; and I said, \u201cHey, I want to explain the gospel to my family before our<\/p>\n<p>wedding day.\u201d And one of the ways I can do that is to talk about my wife's testimony;<\/p>\n<p>and then, to talk about my testimony; they\u2019re very different. Taylor has a background\u2014<\/p>\n<p>grew up in church; a lot of rebellion\u2014and has a amazing story. One of the parts of her<\/p>\n<p>testimony, she has tattoos. I grew up like a clean-cut homeschool Christian kid; and<\/p>\n<p>then, we get married. I wrote this blog and\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Have you gotten any tattoos since you\u2019ve been married?<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: No, I've stayed un-tatted; but I wrote this blog. It was called: \u201cMy Wife Has<\/p>\n<p>Tattoos\u201d; published it at 11:00 pm at night. I'm sure that's not the most optimal time to<\/p>\n<p>release a blog\u2014the night before I get married\u2014\"Hey Lord, use this to make Yourself<\/p>\n<p>known to my family.\u201d Wake up the next morning\u2014don't even think about it\u2014we're taking<\/p>\n<p>pictures. Sean has his phone out; and he's like, \u201cHey Spencer, there's like 50,000<\/p>\n<p>people who have read this blog,\u201d which we were blogging. It was like our college friends<\/p>\n<p>were really blogged.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: \u2014and our parents.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes, yes; \u201cLove you, Mom.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So then, right before we walk out to the altar, he's like, \u201cHey man, we're up to 250,000<\/p>\n<p>people.\u201d Then we get married, and I go on my honeymoon. I forget that anything else<\/p>\n<p>exists, because I'm on my honeymoon with my wife. I get back, and a million people had<\/p>\n<p>read it. It had been read on radio stations\u2014and all these things that happened.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: It struck a nerve.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: It struck a nerve. And one of the things\u2014this actually gets back to the<\/p>\n<p>topic of the books\u2014we wrote these, not claiming to be experts; we wanted to be kind of<\/p>\n<p>like these fellow pilgrims, or these guys who are in the trenches with you\u2014maybe, just<\/p>\n<p>like a year or two ahead\u2014to say: \u201cHey, we remember what it was like to try to fight for<\/p>\n<p>purity when you're dating,\u201d \u201cWe remember what it was like to have conversations about<\/p>\n<p>the holidays, when you're engaged; and \u2018What are we going to do this Christmas?\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And it wasn't 40 years ago; it was recent history.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I like that.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: And then, we wanted to write something really accessible. The way we talk<\/p>\n<p>about the book is\u2014because we haven't been married for 40 years, we can't have the<\/p>\n<p>whole conversation with people\u2014but we said, \u201cWe want to start the conversation. So<\/p>\n<p>let's write these letters\u2014make them really accessible, really readable\u2014and kickstart the<\/p>\n<p>conversation that someone could read with somebody else.\u201d There's questions at the<\/p>\n<p>end, and we're just trying to kickstart a conversation that would be much more full.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: \u2014with topics that are controversial, but also super relevant that people are<\/p>\n<p>asking.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What are some of those? What were the things that were burning in your heart, that you thought, \u201cWe need to write about this\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Okay, I\u2019ll throw out a few.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: And I\u2019d be interested to hear your list [Spencer].<\/p>\n<p>Physical boundaries; kissing, in particular. We took a controversial position on that.<\/p>\n<p>Breaking up: how to break up with someone. Should you break up with someone?<\/p>\n<p>Do you have a bad relationship? What makes a good relationship?<\/p>\n<p>Blame after a breakup.<\/p>\n<p>Those were all categories we were dealing with at the time.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer:<\/p>\n<p>Sexual history; What do you do if one of you is a virgin and the other of you isn\u2019t?<\/p>\n<p>What do you do\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Sean: \u2014if you sin during the relationship?<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes, what do you do when you sin then? Should you break up?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:<\/p>\n<p>What happens? Should you get married if you cross the line physically?<\/p>\n<p>Thinking about, with the engagement book:<\/p>\n<p>How do you think about this brand-new set of parents that comes into your life, called your \u201cin-laws\u201d? How do you navigate conversations about that?<\/p>\n<p>Even\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We had all these questions!<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Oh, my goodness.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And there was nowhere to go.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: It\u2019s so relevant.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re right! Somebody doesn\u2019t want somebody our age\u2014\u201cCan you guys even remember that long ago?\u201d\u2014but you guys were just there.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And it\u2019s a different culture that you\u2019ve grown up in, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, you just raised all these\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I know!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014I guarantee\u2014here\u2019s what we\u2019ve got: we\u2019ve got singles listening. But we also have parents of kids\u2014teenagers and above\u2014who are like, \u201cHow do I help my kids understand this whole thing?\u201d You\u2019re talking to both crowds; at least, a lot of parents are listening, but singles as well.<\/p>\n<p>So any one of those topics\u2014I'll start here\u2014I was speaking one time on manhood at my<\/p>\n<p>church. My assistant, Debbie, who's been my assistant for 30 years, knows I'm<\/p>\n<p>preaching on that that morning. She goes, \u201cYou won't believe this. My husband Andy<\/p>\n<p>and I are sitting at a Big Boy,\u201d\u2014you guys know what a Big Boy is?<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: A delicious Big Boy.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You understand.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: I\u2019m from Cincinnatti, so I know.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014\"We're sitting at a Big Boy, and there's two single guys in the booth beside us.<\/p>\n<p>We can hear their conversation.\u201d This is the text: \u201cOne guy says, \u2018I want to break up with<\/p>\n<p>my girlfriend. I don't know how to do it; I'm sort of afraid.\u2019 His buddy says, \u2018Be a man;<\/p>\n<p>send her a text.\u2019\u201d That was not a funny conversation; that was\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That was for real.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Of course, I used it in the sermon that morning: \u201cYou want to talk about what a<\/p>\n<p>man is? That's not what a man does.\u2019\u201d I don't think we know, these days, what to do.<\/p>\n<p>You just mentioned one; do you want to go there?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Let\u2019s talk about kissing.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Sure; Sean wrote the chapter on kissing. Let me set it up.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Do you see how he just [passed that away]?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, set it up.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: No, no; I want to set it up, because this truly is a controversial thing. Let me start with this: neither of us kissed our wife until the day we got married, okay?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014and you regret it.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: We\u2019re so thankful we didn\u2019t. Christians disagree on this stuff, but we really think that this is wisdom; so we knew we needed to write a chapter on this. Sean took it and gave seven reasons not to kiss.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I read them all.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That was brave of you, too, Sean.<\/p>\n<p>So many women that I\u2019ve talked to\u2014and younger women\u2014are like, \u201cI don\u2019t want that to happen, because the first one could be super-awkward; and I don\u2019t want to be in front of all these people. It just feels like it\u2019s so wrong!\u201d I love that you\u2019re tackling this.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, yes; everyone thinks about it. Everyone wants to kiss the person that they\u2019re dating or engaged to, certainly. Everyone\u2019s thinking about it, but most people don\u2019t think that the Bible has anything to say about it. But the Bible is super-relevant.<\/p>\n<p>One of the reasons\u2014just to jump right in\u2014is the Bible has a category of brother and sister. You are a brother and sister in Christ, and that is the category of relationship you\u2019re in unless you\u2019re married. When you\u2019re married, you\u2019re still brother and sister; but you just have this other covenantal relationship that the Bible talks about, where there is a sexual element to it. That sexual element is not intended ever to be the case for brothers and sisters in Christ; that\u2019s how the Bible presents it. In fact, 1 Timothy 5:2 says, \u201cTreat your sisters with absolute purity.\u201d If you would treat your sister that way\u2014your physical sister\u2014then those are the boundaries the Bible presents the categories for how you should treat the person that you\u2019re not married to. You\u2019re still brother and sister in Christ. That\u2019s one example.<\/p>\n<p>Then, you get to other passages that talk about marriage is to represent Jesus\u2019s life, death, and resurrection. In Ephesians 5, Jesus presents the bride \u201cspotless and without wrinkle or any such blemish.\u201d Well, if your goal, as the man in the relationship, is to reflect Jesus\u2014and to present your bride, without spot, or wrinkle, or any such blemish\u2014then you want to pursue absolute purity. \u201cHow can I do everything I can to have absolute purity in my relationship?\u201d I think that is a good indicator that you should not kiss.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Let me tell you a story. The night before Taylor and I got married, we had our rehearsal dinner. We took a walk together before we went home for the night. We both know we haven\u2019t kissed; and we both know that, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to kiss in front of 400 people. \u201cThis is the first kiss!\u201d We talked about it; we said, \u201cOkay, so we\u2019re not going to kiss right now, but let\u2019s just make sure that\u2014my head\u2019s going to go this way [Laughter], and your head\u2019s going to go that way\u2014and then, we\u2019ll move in. Does that sound good?\u201d We agreed to it before.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s a funny story, right? We talked about it; because we were sensitive to, \u201cHey, we\u2019re about to have our first kiss in front of a bunch of people, and we don\u2019t want it to be awkward.\u201d But let me say this: I have never met a couple, who saved physical affection for marriage, who said, \u201cYou know what? I really wish we would have kissed more when we were dating.\u201d I\u2019ve never met them; but I\u2019ve met a whole bunch of people, who have said, after they get married, \u201cMan, we really went too far; and we had to untangle some stuff in our marriage after we\u2019d crossed all these boundaries we didn\u2019t want to break.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It's actually\u2014one of the things that Taylor and I talked about so much\u2014because we wanted to kiss each other, okay? We were very much attracted to each other; but we talked about this concept of storing up pleasure for later: \u201cWe want to honor God in this season of our life, honor this biblical category of brother and sister. And then, we\u2019re going to trust God that He\u2019s going to bless this, because it\u2019s our desire to honor Him right now. We\u2019re going to store this up for later.\u201d And the Lord did bless that; we\u2019re so thankful. We kiss all the time now. [Laughter] And we\u2019re so thankful for it.<\/p>\n<p>I think it is something that\u2014the way we talk about it in the book is\u2014we really want couples to consider, because God really does value our holiness and our purity, especially in this season of dating. Very, very quickly, it goes in directions we don\u2019t want it to go; because it\u2019s meant to go somewhere. That\u2019s the way God designed it.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: God cares more about our heart than He does our lips. What\u2019s most important is not that you just didn\u2019t, technically, kiss. Jenny and I both had previous relationships\u2014dating relationships\u2014and we both kissed other people previously. The point is not that you\u2019d be a legalist or a Pharisee, to say, \u201cOh, our lips didn\u2019t touch before we said our vows.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The point is: God wants us to draw near to Him, not just with our lips, but with our hearts first. When you do that, it becomes this great thing: \u201cYou know what? We don\u2019t need to kiss right now. We don\u2019t need to have any physical, romantic relationship before marriage. There\u2019s no need because our hearts are filled with love for each other, selflessly. Our hearts are filled with love for the Lord.\u201d The Lord does that when He changes the heart; but if you reverse it, and you start with your lips and then get to your heart, then you get all weird. You don\u2019t honor God, ironically, because God cares about the heart.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You know, it\u2019s interesting\u2014I\u2019ve never had this thought before\u2014but in Luke 6:44-45; you\u2019re probably familiar\u2014Jesus says your mouth (or your tongue or your words) is an overflow of your heart.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, that\u2019s exactly it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019ve always preached, as a preacher, \u201cIf you want to change your words, you\u2019ve got to start with your heart.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Amen.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It isn\u2019t: \u201cI\u2019ve got to stop cursing or slandering God\u201d; He says, \u201cYou start with your heart.\u201d I\u2019ve never considered what you just said.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Maybe your lips are an overflow of your heart\u2014even when it comes to kissing or sexual purity outside of marriage\u2014it\u2019s an overflow.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s a beautiful way to think about it. But here\u2019s my question: \u201cWhat\u2019s the pushback?\u201d Have you heard a lot?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Oh, yes; a lot.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wait, let me get to a little pushback.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, look at this; she wants to take over.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because I\u2019ve talked to some women who\u2019ve grown up in the Purity Culture\u2014some of what maybe wasn\u2019t said\u2014but maybe, what they heard was: \u201cHey, if you remain pure, God is just going to bless your physical relationship.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And then, their physical relationship: they\u2019re thinking their honeymoon\u2019s going to be amazing!<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And it can be difficult or painful, and it doesn\u2019t just get better overnight; it can take a while. What would you guys say to those people, who are like, \u201cWait a minute! I thought this was going to be this amazing blessing, physically; and it\u2019s really hard right now\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes, I think\u2014you can tackle this, too\u2014but I think one of the things I want to say\u2014and I\u2019m really sensitive to that, too; because we grew up at the height of Purity Culture\u2014where some people felt like it was a bait-and-switch: \u201cYou do this: you go to this banquet; you wear these rings, and everything about your marriage is going to be great.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: \u201cTrue love waits, and it\u2019s always amazing!\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Here\u2019s the problem; here\u2019s where I think\u2014and this is one of the corrections we were trying to make in our book\u2014one of the things you have to think about with purity is why are you doing it? Why? And if the motive is: \u201cI am doing this so that my honeymoon will be amazing,\u201d you will be disappointed.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Because your category of amazing is probably not calibrated according to God\u2019s Word. The reason we pursue purity is to honor God and to glorify Him, because we believe that God\u2019s way truly is best. There actually are \u201cpleasures at God\u2019s right hand forevermore.\u201d So the motive of a Christian\u2019s heart, in all of life\u2014and we just seek to apply this in every area of relationships\u2014is: \u201cMy heart, first, is to honor Christ. He has loved me with incredible love. I\u2019m secure in Him; He has given me incredible promises. I am going to now walk faithfully with Him, and He is my reward at the end of the day. He\u2019s my treasure.\u201d All these other blessings are additions that He does give to us, but the motive is there.<\/p>\n<p>I think that was one of the missteps of the Purity Culture; it was often holding in front of you this marital reward that isn\u2019t always promised. I mean, you can get married, and be on your way to your awesome honeymoon\u2014and get in a car wreck and never be able to have sex\u2014what then? Is Jesus still your treasure? I think that has to be the motive, at the core, of why we\u2019re doing these things.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It seems, also, that moral purity or sexual purity was the goal of purity, when the truth is, in Christ, I am already pure.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Amen!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I could be sexually pure, and impure in other ways; and I\u2019m only thinking about one area.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s part of it as well.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, amen. It\u2019s a redefinition of pleasure: \u201cIf you want to save your life, you\u2019re going to lose it; but if you lose your life for My sake and the sake of the gospel, you\u2019ll find it.\u201d When your pleasure in sex is selfless\u2014\"I\u2019m going to delight the other person. I\u2019m going to put their desires first, all for the glory of God,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s when you have joy. When you do that, then you\u2019re not worried about looking awkward on your wedding day; because that\u2019s not the goal. The goal is not for you to look awesome on your wedding day. [Laughter] The goal is for Jesus to look awesome, and for you to selflessly love the other person like Christ has loved you.<\/p>\n<p>If you have a strange and awkward wedding night\u2014we talk about preparing for your wedding night in the engagement book\u2014but if you have a strange and awkward wedding night, well, guess what? It\u2019s not about you!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You get a few more nights, too!<\/p>\n<p>Sean: That\u2019s right; you\u2019ve got a long time to go. [Laughter] And it\u2019s the Lord who you\u2019re trying to honor, and your joy is in serving your spouse; your joy is in serving them, not in being served.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What do you say\u2014and I know you wrote about this, and I read it; you wrote several chapters on it\u2014\u201cOkay, that\u2019s been our goal\u201d; and they mess up\/they blow it? They\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: They kiss.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: They kiss, or they go beyond that, and they violate their own barrier. What do you say to them? And I loved what you wrote. I\u2019m just asking you to tell our listeners what you wrote.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, what\u2019s most important is: do you have godly sorrow or worldly sorrow? Because that sorrow is centered on God Himself. Are you bummed that you messed up your boundary because, \u201cOh, man!\u201d; you now don\u2019t have a perfect score. Are you bummed because you got caught? Are you bummed for some sort of worldly reason?<\/p>\n<p>Or are you bummed because, according to Psalm 51, \u201cAgainst You and You alone, O Lord, have I sinned\u201d? Are you bummed because you fear God? \u201cYou know what? I was sexually immoral. I did sin, and I\u2019ve broken God\u2019s heart, and I need His forgiveness.\u201d If that\u2019s at the center of it\u2014if you want God\u2019s forgiveness; and you want to be made pure; you want clean hands and a pure heart\u2014then God wants you to turn to Him. He will forgive you for anything you have done. He will forgive you right away, immediately. That\u2019s why Jesus died on the cross; He loves you.<\/p>\n<p>When you sin, that\u2019s where you need to run. Most people hide when they sin. They mess up; then, they go underground. God says, \u201cNo, I bled so that you can come to Me and be forgiven.\u201d How someone\u2019s heart responds is a huge determiner in the relationship of whether or not it should make it, whether or not it will make it. It really shows: \u201cIs God the focus or not?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes, one of the things that\u2019s true on most\u2014in every\u2014relationship, especially dating relationships, is everybody comes with a sexual history. Even people who are squeaky-clean virgins on their wedding night, they have a sexual history. Everyone has sinned sexually; everybody is a sexual sinner. The question is: \u201cWhen you fall into sin together, or one of you is bringing more sexual baggage into the relationship than the other, \u2018Well, what do we do with our sin?\u2019 What you do with your sin is what the Bible tells you to do with all of your sin\u20141 John 1:9\u2014\u2018If you confess your sin, He is faithful and just to forgive you of sin and to cleanse you of all unrighteousness.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>A lot of couples go into their marriage, their wedding night, with guilt. The question is: \u201cDoes the Bible have anything to say about that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cOh, you were pure all of your life, and I wasn\u2019t! Are you better than me? Am I less than because of you?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The answer to that question is: \u201cIn Jesus Christ, you\u2019re pure. God takes all of your dark sin, and He makes you white as snow.\u201d That\u2019s one of the\u2014not everybody has a white wedding dress on their wedding day\u2014but one of the symbols of a white wedding dress is this picture of the Church being presented to Jesus as a bride without spot or blemish.<\/p>\n<p>The reality is that, when two Christians get married to each other, they are getting married to each other in Jesus Christ, and they are forgiven; they are accepted; they are made clean. And that applies to their sexual history. One of the things that we have to do as believers is to say, \u201cHow will I think about my past? Will I think about my past according to my understanding and the way I\u2019m going to interpret reality, or the way some other person interprets reality? Or will I remember my past the way God remembers my past?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The way God remembers my past\u2014if I\u2019ve put my faith in Christ, and if I\u2019ve repented of my sins\u2014is: He remembers my past in Christ, which means without spot, or wrinkle, or blemish. When a couple believes that\u2014and they may have the most complex, complicated, tangled up, crazy sexual story; I\u2019ve watched it as a pastor, first-hand\u2014they can enter into the marriage bed together, for the first time, pure in Christ! That\u2019s the beauty of the gospel, and that\u2019s the foundation of marriage.<\/p>\n<p>What we\u2019re seeking to do in these books is to say: \u201cLet\u2019s put the gospel of Jesus Christ, and His grace, and His love, right in the middle of dating, engagement, and marriage. Let\u2019s see what happens as we apply it to every single issue practically.\u201d And where it really lands home is in some of those serious areas of our sexual sin.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was just thinking of myself, as a 19-year-old, about to get married. I grew up with pornography in my background, because the family had it around. I grew up with sexual abuse. I lost my virginity at 15; and then, I become a Chistian. Now, I\u2019m going to marry Dave; and we\u2019ve remained sexually pure with one another. But I did not feel pure at all. The words that you just spoke\u2014if I\u2019d had someone\/a 32-year-old say [that] to me\u2014and I knew the gospel; I knew Jesus\u2019 love\u2014and I thought, \u201cHe\u2019s forgiven me, but He doesn\u2019t see me as pure.\u201d I think so many of us have such trashed backgrounds.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Things have been done to us; so we walk into a marriage, thinking, \u201cOh, I\u2019m garbage. Jesus forgave me, but\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014\u201cI\u2019m dirty.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014\u201cI\u2019m dirty,\u201d yes. Thank you for those words. It\u2019s a good reminder to all of us that: \u201cOh, the death and the resurrection of Christ makes us as white as snow.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Amen!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s just good news.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: One of the things that I think we missed in the Purity Culture movement, a couple decades ago, is we missed the fact that Jesus, who instructs us, is also the Jesus who forgives us when we fail His instructions. In the Purity Culture, you get this kind of movement: \u201cHey, let\u2019s try to really honor God with our sexual purity.\u201d \u201cWell, what if you don\u2019t? What happens then?\u201d\u2014people would go into hiding.<\/p>\n<p>We have to hold out both: \u201cThese are the real instructions and commands of Christ, really relevant to this season of life. Let\u2019s honor those! Let\u2019s hold them up,\u201d and \u201cLet\u2019s also hold up this gospel of grace, when we do fail, to say, \u2018Bring your sin into the light; you don\u2019t have to hide it,\u201d \u201cLet\u2019s talk about sex; let\u2019s talk about sin; let\u2019s talk about all these dimensions of romantic relationships with openness and honesty, because Jesus provides grace for us to both obey Him and to be forgiven by Him.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s awesome.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: And for couples, who have sinned; and maybe, they want to give up, saying, \u201cWell, it doesn\u2019t matter anymore!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cIt\u2019s too late now!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: That\u2019s unbiblical, too.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Because there\u2019s faith and repentance. Jesus, who saves you and changes you, will give you the power to then obey Him. Don\u2019t give up! Instead, turn; repent. Put off the old, and put on the new; put off lust, and put on purity; put off sexual sin, and put on righteousness. God will empower you if you ask Him.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: He guarantees it!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s awesome.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, you guys said it all. I will just say to the listener who, maybe like Ann, has felt dirty\u2014maybe even right now you may be sitting with your boyfriend or girlfriend, or maybe you\u2019re in your first few years of marriage\u2014and you\u2019re feeling like, \u201cI didn\u2019t adhere to God\u2019s standard,\u201d and you\u2019ve felt \u201cless than.\u201d I hope you hear what these guys just said.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: The truth of the gospel\u2014I think you did what Tim Keller has always said when he preaches; you say, \u201cHere\u2019s the standard from God\u2019s Word\u201d; then, he says, \u201cMost people end there, and the preacher\u2019s done. People run out and go, \u2018I\u2019ve got to try as hard as I can to do it.\u2019\u201d He goes, \u201cBefore they leave the room, you\u2019d better say, \u2018And you\u2019ll never be able to meet that standard\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014\u201c\u2019unless you surrender to Christ.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Amen.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201c\u2019He will give you the power to do it.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I just want to say to you, who are listening: \u201cYou can\u2019t do this! I can\u2019t do this. Christ has done this!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Amen.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: If you\u2019re struggling right now, I would say, \u201cTogether, get on your knees as a couple.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We did this.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014all the time.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And just say, \u201cI surrender. God, we can\u2019t do this; but we want to, and You can do it in us. We surrender our relationship to You. Do it in us, and we will follow You.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Praise God.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cAnd when we don\u2019t, we\u2019ll come back to the grace in the blood of Jesus, and we\u2019ll get up and do it right again.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today. We're Ann and Dave Wilson. And we've been<\/p>\n<p>talking with Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon about their book, Letters to a Romantic.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014which is really good, as you could tell from our conversation. And I would<\/p>\n<p>encourage you to pick up their book series called Letters to a Romantic; there's one on<\/p>\n<p>dating, on engagement, and on the first years of marriage. They're in our show notes;<\/p>\n<p>go to FamilyLifeToday.com; click the link there, and get any one of those, or all of<\/p>\n<p>them.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife.com<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/315148","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=315148"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/312569"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=315148"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=315148"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=315148"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=315148"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=315148"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=315148"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}