{"id":314415,"date":"2025-05-05T03:19:27","date_gmt":"2025-05-05T07:19:27","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/finding-the-sacred-in-the-secular-jordan-raynor\/"},"modified":"2025-06-17T10:57:32","modified_gmt":"2025-06-17T14:57:32","slug":"finding-the-sacred-in-the-secular-jordan-raynor","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/finding-the-sacred-in-the-secular-jordan-raynor\/","title":{"rendered":"Finding the Sacred in the Secular &#8211; Jordan Raynor"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>In this episode, hosts Dave and Ann Wilson bring back Jordan Raynor to continue their conversation about how to integrate faith into everyday work. Jordan passionately discusses the concept of sacred versus secular work, challenging the common divide between the two. He emphasizes that everything, including our &#8220;secular&#8221; jobs, can be sacred if we approach them with the right mindset\u2014recognizing that Jesus is Lord over all of life. This idea is rooted in the belief that God is with us everywhere, and that it\u2019s not the nature of the work that makes it sacred, but the intention behind it, the manner in which it is done, and the communion with the Holy Spirit in the process.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan shares a personal story from his college years, recounting a moment when he was offered a chance to try out for the Cincinnati Bengals, but he turned it down, believing that God was calling him into full-time Christian ministry. Reflecting on that decision, Jordan critiques the advice he was given, noting that many young Christians are told to pursue &#8220;full-time ministry&#8221; while neglecting the value of secular work as a calling in itself.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan also discusses his new book, <em fetchpriority=\"high\">Five Mere Christians<\/em>, in which he highlights five influential individuals who lived out their faith through their work in ways that impacted the world. These figures include Fred Rogers (Mr. Rogers), Fannie Lou Hamer, Ole Kirk Christensen (founder of LEGO), Hannah Moore (a poet and abolitionist), and C.S. Lewis. He explores how these individuals exemplified what it looks like to glorify God through everyday work, even when it was not considered traditional Christian ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan goes into detail about Fred Rogers\u2019 life, particularly his deep commitment to serving children through his show, <em>Mr. Rogers&#8217; Neighborhood<\/em>. Fred\u2019s life was marked by his understanding that his work in television was a form of ministry. His compassion, especially for underprivileged children, came from his own childhood experiences and his deep relationship with God. Fred&#8217;s intentional choice to be present with people, to slow down and offer them his full attention, is highlighted as a critical aspect of his Christ-like behavior.<\/p>\n<p>Throughout the episode, Jordan challenges listeners to rethink how they approach their own work. He offers practical advice on how to eliminate hurry, make space for margin in our calendars, and prioritize relationships over tasks. The conversation emphasizes being fully present with the people we interact with and cultivating a pace of life that allows us to show the love of Christ in tangible ways, just like Fred Rogers did.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Do you know how to find faith in the every day work? Jordan Raynor introduces us to five mere christians who inspire him every day.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":312569,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/6a9a47d1-561a-4cd5-a652-b2c9012b1186\/audio.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:25:55","filesize":"23.76M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2025-05-05 03:19:27","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2821],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[10986],"cwp_profile":[],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-314415","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-reaching-out","podcast_series-five-mere-christians-jordan-raynor","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2025\/02\/image_bbee74.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/314415\/finding-the-sacred-in-the-secular-jordan-raynor","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/314415\/finding-the-sacred-in-the-secular-jordan-raynor","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"hau4ItlTzG\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/finding-the-sacred-in-the-secular-jordan-raynor\/\">Finding the Sacred in the Secular &#8211; Jordan Raynor<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/finding-the-sacred-in-the-secular-jordan-raynor\/embed\/#?secret=hau4ItlTzG\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Finding the Sacred in the Secular &#8211; Jordan Raynor&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"hau4ItlTzG\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2025\/02\/image_bbee74.jpg",1024,1024,true]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Do you know how to find faith in the every day work? Jordan Raynor introduces us to five mere christians who inspire him every day.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.jordanraynor.com\/five-mere-christians\">Learn more about Jordan at his website<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/content-offers\/best-of-faith\/\">Download our \"Best of Faith\" resource online<\/a> .<\/li>\n<li>Every donation to FamilyLife in May will be matched. <a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/may-2025\/?cru_source=D0002408AT&amp;cru_medium=podcast&amp;cru_campaign=May2025\">Donate today on our website<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr \/>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-05-05.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>Finding the Sacred in the Secular<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Jordan Raynor<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Five Mere Christians (Day 1 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:May 5, 2025<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:Fred allowed the Lord to transform his pain into a passion of serving others, who had similar struggles. He had a Hebrew rendering of Song of Solomon 2:16 hanging in his office: \u201cMy Beloved is mine, and I am His.\u201d In the middle of taping \u2026Neighborhood, he would just hole away in his office. He would stare at that and remind himself, in the busyness of his day, that he was loved.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Okay, what do you think? We got Jordan Raynor back with us.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I love having Jordan with us, don't you?<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Oh, yeah. You, Jordan, tackle\u2014you hammer home; I mean hammer home\u2014that work matters. When I look at you\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:It's getting annoying, isn't it?<\/p>\n<p>Dave:No, it\u2019s awesome!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:No, it\u2019s like in our brains.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:One of the reasons I'm excited\u2014I don't know anybody else hammering this in the Christian world\u2014it's like the secular; there's the sacred\u2014we think the secular and sacred never mix; it's only sacred. You're like, \u201cNo, secular matters because it is sacred\u201d; right?<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:Yes! Because Jesus is Lord of it all. So as we go throughout this world, in the power of the Holy Spirit, that same flame that represented the presence of God was with Moses, is with us, walking and reclaiming territory for the kingdom of God. I think I've said it here before: \u201cThe only thing you have to do to make your secular school, your secular workplace, sacred is walk through the front door or log onto Zoom\u201d; right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Explain that; why?<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:Let's define some terms. That word, \u201csecular,\u201d literally means \u201cwithout God.\u201d But we believe that God is literally with us wherever we step. It's not what we do that determines whether or not our work is sacred. It is why we do it; how we do it; and most importantly, who we do it with\u2014communion with the Holy Spirit\u2014as we do that work and live in our communities today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You talk about something that's critically important. Jordan, you don't even know the story\u2014I don't think I've ever said it on air, because it sounds conceited\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:Yeah? Come on.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014so I've kept it under. It's a secular\/sacred conversation. I played college football; I get done with my senior year. I get a call from Cincinnati Bengals that they don't want to draft me, but they want to offer me a free agent.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Wait; you don't think you've ever shared this?<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Not on air. Maybe I have; have I?<\/p>\n<p>Bruce:I've heard it twice.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Bruce knows everything.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I don\u2019t doubt it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Have I shared it a bunch?<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:Keep going; we're not sure yet. We\u2019re not sure yet.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Bruce, you're serious? Okay; Bruce hasn't heard it. If Bruce hadn't heard it, it hadn't been shared. Maybe it's been shared in that room, but not on air.<\/p>\n<p>Anyway, so I'm a brand-new Christian\u2014a year young in my faith\u2014don't know anything. I go to my mentor on the college campus; and he's not really an athletic guy, but he's my mentor. I say to him, \u201cHey, so I have a shot to go to camp with Cincinnati Bengals. Doesn't mean I'll make it, but I have a shot.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And you'll get paid money.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And I'll get paid a little bit; but if I make the team, I'll get paid a lot, even back in the \u201870s. I say to him, \u201cI want to do what God wants me to do. How do I know God's will for this decision?\u201d He looked straight in my eye, and he said, \u201cGod does not want you to play in the NFL. He wants you to go in full-time Christian work; that's not full-time Christian work. You're called to ministry. Call them back and say, \u201cNo\u201d; so I did.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:So sad.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And I'm not sitting here, saying, \u201cHey, I would've been the next Tom Brady.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:Sure; sure; but probably.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah, probably, probably; yeah. Thanks for\u2014 I like you, man. I love you<\/p>\n<p>Ann:At least, Doug Flutie.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I like you, man; I love you.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:At least, Doug Flutie!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Doug Flutie, I could have been. Yeah, I was a little guy like Doug. But anyway, all that to say: \u201cThat was really bad advice.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:It was terrible\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I know.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:\u2014advice. But it's the advice that so many young people are hearing. It's why I'm so deeply committed to this work and championing this message in nonfiction books like The Sacredness of Secular Work that we talked about here before; picture books like The Creator in You and The Royal in You. Also, I'm trying to break into this new genre of extremely entertaining biography because\u2014listen, there's only so many people, listening, who are going to read a book called The Sacredness of Secular Work\u2014but if I told you: \u201cHey, we got a beach-read that you're going to crush at the beach this summer and just love,\u201d and \u201cOh, by the way, be inspired that your \u2018secular work\u2019 matters,\u201d\u2014I don't know\u2014a different listener might pick that up and be forever changed.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:So you're saying, with these biographies, there's people that you see, historically, who have had an impact on the world; and they're not necessarily in full-time vocational Christian work.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:Yeah, that's exactly right. The name of this new book is 5 Mere Christians. Other than being a blatant steal from C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity, it's a term that I use to describe the vast majority of our listeners, who like me, are not donor-supported missionaries or pastors; but who are working out in the world as entrepreneurs, and baristas, and teachers, and nurses, et cetera, et cetera.<\/p>\n<p>The story of Scripture is that that work is celebrated; in fact, Jesus spent 80 percent of His adult life as a \u201cmere Christian.\u201d If we can call our Lord and Savior that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Did you just call Jesus a mere Christian?<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:\u2014I did\u2014I did not; I did not!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:That's blasphemy.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:Scrap that from the record. Scrap that for the record.<\/p>\n<p>But Paul; and the women who financially supported Jesus; and Zacchaeus, who was encouraged to go back to his \u201csecular work\u201d as a tax collector and do that work. But I don't think we can always fully resonate with these biblical mere Christians. And the good news is we've got great stories of men and women who glorified God greatly in their work in more recent history. Those are some of the stories that I'm trying to tell in this book.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And it's not boring. I was fascinated, and I couldn't stop reading.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I just got to tell you the truth. I read it first; and then, I told Ann because she looked at it\u2014honestly, she's like, \u201cReally? Biographies? We're going to read it?\u201d\u2014I'm like, \u201cYou will not believe this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I like biographies.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah; I mean, she was like, \u201cOkay.\u201d And then, I'm not kidding\u2014Jordan, we're not just saying this because you're here\u2014these are fascinating. I know Fred Rogers, I think; and then, I read his story; I'm like\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Well, there\u2019s a movie on him.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014\u201cYou're bringing out stuff nobody knows.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:I have a love\/hate relationship with biographies if I'm being totally honest. I took on this project because I wanted to write the kind of biography I wanted to read. First and foremost, was: mercifully short. We were saying before we started recording the most popular biography on Winston Churchill's life is 3,000 pages long.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:No, it isn't. It really is?\u20143,000 pages.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I love history, but\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:Churchill's mom didn't care about him enough to read that biography.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Well, that's the thing: we start them; but most of the time, we don't finish.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:We don't finish them! So I wanted biographies that were short.<\/p>\n<p>Number two: I wanted biographies that were extremely entertaining. I'll give you an example. Most of C.S. Lewis' biographers agree that Lewis had an affair with his best friend's mom for most of his 20s. That's pretty scandalous\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:What?!<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:\u2014and pretty interesting, especially in light of his future redemption. But I promise you: you would fall asleep reading about this affair; because these biographers spend 20 pages, and letter after letter, of: \u201cDid they or didn't they?\u201d Just get to the action and the point of the story!<\/p>\n<p>Finally, I wanted to write biographies that are personally relevant; because so many biographies make the subject the hero. I'm saying, \u201cHey, no, no, no. The subject is a guide. Paul said, \u2018Follow me as I follow Christ\u2019; that's what I'm trying to do with this book. I'm saying: \u2018Follow Fred Rogers, and C.S. Lewis, and the founder of Lego, and Fannie Lou Hamer, and Hannah More as they follow Christ; and show you animated three-dimensional models of what it looks like, practically, to glorify God if you're not a pastor or donor-supported missionary.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Why these five?<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:I host a podcast called Mere Christians, where I interview modern mere Christians. These are the five I most want on the show, but can't because they're dead\u2014that's the short answer\u2014because they point to practical takeaways for the readers today of how to glorify God. For example, Fred Rogers, I think, gives us a really beautiful case study of what it looks like to truly experience the love of God as we work and work at a pace that allows us to extend that love to other people.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Remind our listeners who Fred Rogers is if they don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:[Singing] \u201cIt\u2019s a beautiful day in the neighborhood.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:He\u2019s going to do the whole thing.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:There you go. That's good now.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:I actually did not grow up watching Fred Rogers.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We didn't either; our kids didn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:But tens of millions of American kids did. He was the host of a wildly popular TV show called Mr. Rogers\u2019 Neighborhood. He's just one example of somebody whose life is extremely interesting and entertaining; but again, that points to these practical takeaways; so that's why I picked him.<\/p>\n<p>I picked Fannie Lou Hamer, the civil rights activist, who stood up to President Johnson on national TV and almost caused him to drop out of the race for the presidency in 1964. I picked Ole Kirk Christiansen, the founder of Lego, who most people don't know was a deeply serious follower of Jesus, whose story very closely parallels Job in the Old Testament. I picked Hannah More, this poet largely credited for abolishing slavery throughout the British Empire. And then, of course, C.S. Lewis, author of The Chronicles of Narnia and Mere Christianity, who changed the world through his works of fiction.<\/p>\n<p>I picked these five because I'm competing with Netflix and TikTok, and I'm competing to win. I think these stories are better and more entertaining, if told properly, than what's on TikTok and Netflix. Again, they point us to practical, tangible ways to glorify God as we live our lives in our modern context.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Alright, let's go; let's go. What do you want to do? Do you want to do [singing] \u2026Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood? You want to do Fred?<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:Let's do it!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yeah, let's do it.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:You want to talk about Fred?<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Tell us about Fred.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:So a lot of people don't realize that Fred spent years\u2014up to eight years by some biographers\u2019 estimation\u2014debating whether or not he was going to pursue a calling in TV, like Mr. Rogers Neighborhood, or whether he was going to go into full-time pastoral ministry. And so, for eight years\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014\"NFL or ministry?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:\u201cNFL or ministry\u201d; that's exactly right. \u201cJV or Varsity?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:If I would've had your biography in the \u201870s, I could have made a different decision.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:You could have made a different decision.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You're going to teach us that he did ministry, even though it wasn't called that.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:That's exactly right. For eight years, he splits the difference. He would go to work at the TV station in the morning; and then, on his lunch break, he would drive across town to Pittsburgh to attend seminary classes. By the time he earned his degree, he knew that God was leading him to work in television; but he still wanted to be ordained by the Pittsburgh Presbytery\u2014to do so because he just felt like this was a calling from God\u2014and he wanted the Presbytery to recognize that.<\/p>\n<p>Sadly\u2014although not surprisingly, based on the story you just shared, Dave\u2014the Presbytery vehemently disagreed; refused to ordain Fred Rogers. They pushed him to a career in pastoral ministry, but he wouldn't do it. Thankfully, there was this one member of the Presbytery who believed in Fred\u2014this guy named Bill Barker\u2014who believed that Fred's work on TV was ministry. I pulled up the quote from the book here:<\/p>\n<p>Barker goes before the Presbytery after they give the decision not to ordain Fred. \u201cFred,\u201d he says, \u201clook, here's an individual who has his pulpit proudly in front of a TV camera. His congregation are little people from the ages of two or three on up to seven or eight. This is a whole congregation of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of kids. And this man is as authentically called by the Lord as much as any of you guys sitting out there.\u201d Mic drop; walks out of the room. Short story: the Presbytery does ordain Mr. Rogers.<\/p>\n<p>But here's what I love about the story. A couple years later, Barker is going on vacation to Scotland. He stumbles across this neck tie that's a blue and black tartan pattern. It's this pattern\/that's this tie traditionally worn by Presbyterian clergy. Barker buys two of them: one for himself, who was a donor-supported pastor, and one for his friend, Fred Rogers. Fred loved it so much that he wore it for years on air to give a \u201csubliminal message\u201d that he believed he was doing full-time ministry on Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood of showing Jesus' love to the kids on the other end of that screen. He loved it so much that he actually asked to be buried in the tie. To this day, Fred Rogers is six feet under, wearing that blue and black tartan tie.<\/p>\n<p>Here's the point for our listeners today: \u201cGuys, just like Fred, all of us are part of what 1 Peter calls \u2018the royal priesthood.\u2019 It is no longer just literal priests, who represent God in the world and extend His blessings; it's every carpenter, every entrepreneur, every teacher, every television personality, any Christian doing genuinely good work.\u201d That's why I wrote 5 Mere Christians: to show readers that truth in a fun, binge-worthy, entertaining way; but also, to challenge them to do that work more faithfully for the glory of God and the good of others.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I was even intrigued with Fred about: \u201cDon't you wonder? Where did that compassionate heart come from for kids?\u201d You tell the story about that he came from a wealthy family. He had a driver drive him to school every day; but then, after school one day, didn't get in the car; because some kids bullied him. They were calling him \u201cFat Freddy.\u201d He ended up running all the way home; but as he was running, he's praying, \u201cGod help me.\u201d He said, \u201cIt's the first time I really recognized that God was real.\u201d It was a tangible part of his life that he realized he needed this God. You understand? Because he was so sensitive to kids that had been bullied\u2014kids who felt out of place\u2014he just had a compassionate heart towards the underdog too. You could feel it in his episodes.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:And there's a couple of things I take\u2014I love that that story stuck with you, because I love that story\u2014there are a couple of things I take away from it. Number one: Fred allowed the Lord to transform his pain into a passion of serving others, who had similar struggles.<\/p>\n<p>And two: in that scene is the first time we see Fred truly experiencing the love of the Father. All throughout his career, he made time, not just to read the Word, not just to pray; but to sit and watch his heavenly Father watch him to experience the love of God. For 30 years or so\u2014I actually had this sign that hung in his office reproduced for my own office\u2014this is how meaningful this was to me. He had a Hebrew rendering of Song of Solomon 2:16 hanging in his office: \u201cMy Beloved is mine, and I am His.\u201d In the middle of taping \u2026Neighborhood, he would just hole away in his office. He would stare at that and remind himself, in the busyness of his day, that he was loved.<\/p>\n<p>And you hear all these stories\u2014and maybe, some of our listeners are familiar with this\u2014of the extraordinary acts of kindness that Fred showed people. I'll just rattle off a couple:<\/p>\n<p>One time, he's sitting in his apartment in New York, and looks across the street, and sees a guy getting mugged. He's at the height of his fame; he's recognized by everybody. Fred leaves his apartment\u2014he's writing a script for the show\u2014goes outside; walks across the street; hands the victim a $100 bill, and says, \u201cI just want you to know that you are seen, and you are loved by the God of the universe\u201d; and walks away.<\/p>\n<p>This other time where this little girl named Beth Usher was going under surgery by Dr. Ben Carson. Remember Dr. Ben Carson ran for President for 30 minutes? Ben was going to do surgery on this girl. This girl\u2014the only thing that made her 100-plus seizures a day stop was watching Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood\u2014the mom writes in; she says, \u201cHey, can Fred send a picture\/a signed picture for her surgery?\u201d He's like, \u201cI'll do you one better. Make sure you're home at seven o'clock\u201d. He sits there, after a long day at the office, and for an hour and a half, talked to this girl about her fear of dying, about the fact that she didn't have friends; and then, hangs up the phone\u2014hangs up the phone\u2014he's got a family of his own at home; looks at his wife. He said, \u201cI got to go.\u201d Calls Dr. Ben Carson, says, \u201cI'm coming to sit with this kid during surgery. One rule: no press.\u201d He goes; and he sits by this girl's bedside, just to show other-worldly love.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:But he didn't want anybody to know.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:He didn't want anyone to know. But here's what I read about Fred's life. I've never read of a person who's more Christ-like than Fred Rogers, ever. I read these stories, and it feels so impossible. I'm like, \u201cHow did he do this? He's got a family to take care of. He's got all these responsibilities, professionally\u201d. I believe the secret was he took time every day to experience his beloved-ness as a child of God. I think if we\u2014modern professionals, moms and dads\u2014we take time to feel the love of God, for our cup to be so full we won't be able to contain it all; and we will have to share it with other people in ways that are radical; and beg the question: \u201cWhy?\u201d\u2014to which the answer is: \u201cJesus Christ.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:How would you say you do that? How do you sit? Maybe you don't sit, but how do you experience your beloved-ness?<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:One, I'm a really practical guy. I have to have physical things around me that remind me of His love. I don't know what that is for you. Maybe, it's a verse; maybe, it is a picture of some experience in your life that you remember and recall, \u201cMan, I felt God's love in that moment.\u201d For me, it's that Song of Solomon 2:16 in Hebrew hanging over. Every time I walk through my doorway, I'm remembering the love I have in God. That's one practical way, some physical reminder.<\/p>\n<p>Second, it could be time to put a little quiet time back in quiet time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I was going to say: \u201cMine is just being in the Word every day.\u201d It\u2019s a love letter.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:Yeah! A lot of people's time in the Word is reading, reading, reading\u2014 intaking information, intaking information\u2014closing the Bible; and then, going throughout the day. We don't sit and dwell on the Word and really think about what we just read and see God's love for us in what we read.<\/p>\n<p>For me, those are two things: physical reminders, Dave; and then, taking time to read the Word and reflect on how God's showing His love to me in what I just read.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:My only thought was going to be that I've done the one-year Bible on my phone. I started to realize\u2014because it's on my phone\u2014if I don't turn off notifications, I'm gone; because a text will come in\u2014or any little ding\u2014I'm like: \u201cI need a real Bible I think,\u201d or \u201cTurn off my phone.\u201d I need a real Bible that separates; put the phone in another room. Don't even have my watch on; and then, just say, \u201cI'm going to be locked into experience\u201d\u2014what you just said.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:Man, I'm so glad you brought this up. I have no technology during my time in the Word. It is a physical Bible, and I do it for a couple reasons:<\/p>\n<p>One, so I'm not distracted so I can experience the love of God.<\/p>\n<p>But two, I want my kids to see the physical Word of God so that they don't mistake me reading the Word on my phone as me checking text messages.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yeah; and that's why I got you a Bible! Good thing I did that.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:Come on; what'd you get? What\u2019d you get, Dave? What\u2019d you get?<\/p>\n<p>Dave:The One-Year Chronological Bible.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:Oh!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Am I right? I\u2019ve never done it that way.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:I like that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You can take a pen and you can actually write on this paper; and you can make notes.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:I wasn't planning on sharing this today\u2014it's a little off-topic\u2014but whatever; let\u2019s go there. In the spirit of helping my kids feel the beloved-ness of God, I changed up my Bible study habits. I got one of these wide-margin Bibles.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That's what I have; great!<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:But what I'm doing is I'm writing a personal commentary to my daughter in this Bible. I'm going page by page. I'm trying to highlight, at least, one thing on a page. Man, Leviticus is a struggle. One thing on every page and writing a note to Ellison: \u201cDo you see how much God loves you that He's continuing to protect the seed of Jesus Christ in redemption?\u201d And calling out specific things in her like, \u201cEllison, God loves beauty (see Genesis 2:9). You love beauty; and when you design dresses around the house, you are reflecting His beauty in the world.\u201d So I\u2019m trying to take all these principles that I'm writing about in these books for grownups, like 5 Mere Christians, and giving this as an heirloom to my daughter, that I plan to give to her when she's 18. I'm going to do it for all three of my girls.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I wish I would've done that; what a good idea.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:Yeah; I stole it from my buddy, Sean; it's a great idea.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:One of the things that happens when you read this\u2014at least, for me\u2014was my faith is encouraged. And here, at Family Life, that's what we're about: helping you grow; be encouraged in your faith. We have a site for you to help you do that; it's FamilyLife.com\/StrongerFaith. You want to grow in your faith?\u2014you want to get stronger in your faith?\u2014we have resources there for you. Go to FamilyLife.com\/StrongerFaith, and let us help you. We all need that help.<\/p>\n<p>And I'd also say: \u201cPick up this book. You can send a donation to us at Family Life, and we will send you this book\u2014a donation of any amount.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Obviously, you\u2014I mean, all throughout\u2014this is why this is a good biography compared to the bad ones. I only use the word you used about how bad they are, but they're really bad. These get really practical, and these are life-changing. So help us from Fred's life: apply something.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:You could finish one of these biographies in about 45 minutes\/50 minutes. At the end, I come in\u2014and look you, the reader, in the eye, and say, \u201cOkay, Reader, what does this mean for you practically today?\u201d\u2014I share some really, really practical things. One of those are these three practical tips for eliminating hurry from our work lives, from our personal lives, so that we can live at a pace that allows us to show radical love to those around us, like Fred Rogers did.<\/p>\n<p>Number one: budget tons of margin in your calendar.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:How do you do that when you feel like you have no time?<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:Hard to do; you have to do less things. You just have to know that everything's going to take 50 percent longer, which forces you to say, \u201cNo,\u201d to a lot of things. Not easy, right? The solution is simple\u2014it's not easy\u2014but budget tons of margin.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:One of the easiest things we did at church, which was hard to do, is we didn't stack meetings:\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:Yeah, there you go.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u20141:00 to 2:00; don't put a 2:00 to 3:00.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:It's not 2:00 to 3:00.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:At least, 2:30 or something; but give yourself some margin.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:That's right.<\/p>\n<p>Second: resolve to be with who you're with. If you're making a decision of: \u201cI'm going to be with the Wilsons today, I'm not with anybody else; I'm writing that off.\u201d Because, not only did Fred not hurry in his life; but when someone entered his presence\u2014his coworkers would frequently describe how time would slow down\u2014how they called it: \u201cFred-time would begin,\u201d and urgency dissipated; because he made them feel like the image-bearers of God that they were.<\/p>\n<p>We could do the same thing today by silencing distractions and resolving to be fully present with who we're with. Man, if you really want to take this to the next level: keep your phone, when you're home, in a separate room on \u201cDo not disturb\u201d; so you actually have to physically go walk and get it; if you want to be distracted from your kids.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Are you sure we will stay alive if our phone's in another room?<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:I don't know.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I don\u2019t know if I can make it 15 minutes.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:Let me give you one more tip for eliminating hurry, like Fred. When you fail to be unhurried, choose the important over the urgent. Fred became so much more human to me when I heard his son say that there were days when Fred was hurried, when he was rushing home after work in order to sit down with his family for dinner because he didn't always succeed in being unhurried. But even when he didn't, he always chose the person rather than the project. He always chose the important over the unimportant, over the temporal.<\/p>\n<p>He had this kind of rule\u2014this mantra in his life\u2014of: \u201cHey, if I'm going to be hurried, I'm going to choose the important over the urgent. I'm always going to choose my family over whatever's keeping me up at work. Because guess what? When I show up at the office tomorrow, that work's still going to be there for me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:These are such good principles for every single person listening. We can all relate to it, and we all need to do it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah. I want to get a bracelet that's WWFD: \u201cWhat would Fred do?\u201d I mean, it sounds like\u2014and you said it earlier\u2014he really did reflect Jesus to people.<\/p>\n<p>Jordan:\u2014in a beautiful way.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:So what a great conversation with Jordan Raynor. And I got to be honest with you: when I first saw this book, 5 Mere Christians and their biographies, I thought, \u201cThis is going to be boring.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I know; you told me that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I just did. And then, I read it; and I'm like, \u201cOh, my goodness; this is powerful. These lives were incredible.\u201d And I'm telling you: you want to get this book. All you have to do is go to FamilyLifeToday.com; you can get the book there. And I'm telling you: this would be a really good read. You can just read one biography; and then, take a break; and read another one. But again, it's FamilyLifeToday.com; get your book right there. It's in the show notes.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife.com<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/314415","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=314415"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/312569"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=314415"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=314415"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=314415"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=314415"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=314415"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=314415"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}