{"id":313761,"date":"2025-04-01T07:00:00","date_gmt":"2025-04-01T11:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/my-spouse-is-having-an-affair-dave-carder-2\/"},"modified":"2025-06-17T11:04:23","modified_gmt":"2025-06-17T15:04:23","slug":"my-spouse-is-having-an-affair-dave-carder-2","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/my-spouse-is-having-an-affair-dave-carder-2\/","title":{"rendered":"My Spouse is Having an Affair: Dave Carder"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>\u201cMy spouse is having an affair. What do I do now?\u201d Affairs expert Dave Carder walks through searing betrayal, what you need to know, and what to do next.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>\u201cMy spouse is having an affair. What do I do now?\u201d Affairs expert Dave Carder walks through searing betrayal, what you need to know, and what to do next.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":312569,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/f13bfff2-8ad1-46f7-9099-b2ab011324d0\/audio.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:24:55","filesize":"22.85M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2025-04-01 07:00:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2903],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[8598],"cwp_profile":[3383],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-313761","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-infidelity","podcast_series-the-anatomy-of-an-affair-dave-carder","cwp_profile-dave-carder","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2025\/02\/image_bbee74.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/313761\/my-spouse-is-having-an-affair-dave-carder-2","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/313761\/my-spouse-is-having-an-affair-dave-carder-2","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"seL6g3YS56\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/my-spouse-is-having-an-affair-dave-carder-2\/\">My Spouse is Having an Affair: Dave Carder<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/my-spouse-is-having-an-affair-dave-carder-2\/embed\/#?secret=seL6g3YS56\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;My Spouse is Having an Affair: Dave Carder&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"seL6g3YS56\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["f13bfff2-8ad1-46f7-9099-b2ab011324d0"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/f13bfff2-8ad1-46f7-9099-b2ab011324d0\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:24:55"],"filesize":["22.85M"],"_thumbnail_id":["312569"],"show_notes":["<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/davecarder.com\/\">Learn more about Dave Carder on his website<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Purchase \"<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/anatomy-of-affair\/\">The Anatomy of an Affair<\/a>\" by Dave Carder online.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/weekend-to-remember\/\">Find a Weekend to Remember event in your area today!<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-creator\/easter-with-familylife\/\">Find our Resurrection Eggs here<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr \/>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-04-01.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>My Spouse Is Having an Affair<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Dave Carder<\/p>\n<p>From the series:The Anatomy of an Affair (Day 2 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:April 1, 2025<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: You cannot see a couple who\u2019s gone through infidelity and tell them, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you start dating each other? Why don\u2019t you start going\u2026\u201d That is a brawl in the restaurant if you do that kind of stuff. There\u2019s a place for starting to date, but not at the beginning of when you\u2019ve been betrayed. Betrayal is the most painful emotion known to man. But to the degree that the spouse, who\u2019s been betrayed can forgive, to that degree they can start rebuilding respect for their spouse. And to the degree they rebuild respect for their spouse, they can start rebuilding trust. And to the degree they rebuild trust, they can rebuild love. It goes: forgiveness, respect, trust, and love. There\u2019s no trust if you don\u2019t respect.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships<\/p>\n<p>that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So you remember the day we were called to one of our good friend's house<\/p>\n<p>because they just found out his wife had an affair.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, yeah; it was awful.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We met with them within hours of the discovery, and it was just so dark.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It was horrible.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I just felt like, \u201cThere's no chance\u201d;\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Five kids.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014and God saved the marriage. We literally, three days ago, were at one of their<\/p>\n<p>son's wedding.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Isn't that great?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We looked at each other, and thought, \u201cWhat if they had chosen to divorce? This<\/p>\n<p>whole day\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014\u201cwould look different.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014\u201ctotally different.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Oh, it would be very different.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019ve got Dave Carder back with us. Dave has written about affairs: Torn Asunder and Anatomy of an Affair. I don\u2019t know; how many books have you written, Dave?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Five or six.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Five or six.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But they keep being republished,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014because they\u2019re that good. People need help; because affairs, and adultery, and this kind of thing is pretty commonplace; it always has been. Do you know what the statistics are now?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: There\u2019s a lot of research in the field; but until recently\u2014within the last six or seven years, it\u2019s all been about frequency stuff\u2014\u201cHow many\/what percentages of people acknowledge it?\u201d Many of them are online surveys, so there\u2019s some skepticism about those numbers; but basically, it\u2019s pretty safe to say about half of the population acknowledges some type of marital infidelity. There used to be quite a gap between men and women. We used to see numbers around the lower 60s\/mid-60s for men, percentages; and maybe in the 40s for women. But I would tell you, anecdotally and experientially, that they\u2019re just pretty much equal right now.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Women have a lot to lose if they have an affair; men don\u2019t forgive as easily in this area as women do.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: No, they feel so inadequate; it\u2019s such a threat to their manhood and everything. Women have probably been more conditioned to forgive. Up until 1990\u2014up until then\u2014you had two choices: you swept it under the rug, or you got a divorce. There was no treatment! Treating adultery was an oxymoron. It was impossible: \u201cWhoever thought of that?!\u201d type of thing.<\/p>\n<p>But that\u2019s all beginning to change. We have a couple of really great researchers in the field, who are having a hard time; because you can find the couples, but you can\u2019t keep them in the therapy process long enough to document the data that you really want or to collect the data you really want. But we have learned a few things; and we\u2019re continuing to expose ideas, etcetera.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019ve written about this; and also worked at a church\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014for almost four decades,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014helping therapists and having peer therapy.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Are the stats different in the church world than outside?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: I wouldn\u2019t say they\u2019re much different at all.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: I\u2019ll give you some documentation for that. Back in \u201988, we started collecting data on pastors\u2014out of CT Leadership, surveys that they had done\u2014we went through pastoral conferences for a year, collecting surveys, etcetera. Basically, compiled all that; we had an ingroup or a cluster group of about 4,000 pastors over<\/p>\n<p>10 years, 1988-1998. Basically, about 10 to 12 percent of them actually acknowledged that they had committed adultery in their marriage. But the interesting statistic was: 14 additional percent of 4,000 respondents said they had lied on the survey\u201414 percent. What is there to lie about?\u2014it\u2019s a \u201cYes,\u201d or \u201cNo,\u201d question. If you take that 14 percent and the 14 percent or so beforehand, you\u2019re up close to 30 percent. Actually, just given the nature of research like that, we would speculate it would be close to 40. And there have been frequency surveys that do document 40 percent of pastors.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: So if you\u2019ve got pastors doing that, you just extrapolate down to the parishioners in the pew; and it\u2019s just terribly frequent.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Dave, we have had individuals come up to us often, who have said, \u201cHey, I cheated on my husband or wife years ago. Now, it\u2019s been ten or fifteen years. I\u2019m guilt-ridden, because it\u2019s eating me away.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cShould I tell my spouse? And now, it will become all this big deal.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What would you say to that? Don\u2019t you think we\u2019ve had that often?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Sure.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Oh, you do all the time; all the time. The issue is: \u201cIf you want to work through it, you\u2019ll have to disclose.\u201d In the book, Torn Asunder, there\u2019s a chart that talks about that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: And if you process it, but you don\u2019t disclose it, then you really kind of forfeit the opportunity for it to impact the marriage in a good way.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you think it could impact the marriage in a good way?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Oh, I definitely think so. One of the things you can always say to a spouse, who\u2019s betrayed like that, is, \u201cYou know, it took a lot of courage to belly up to the bar; so let\u2019s start working on it. What was going on back there when that occurred?\u201d and \u201cWe\u2019ll figure it out.\u201d Of course, it is upsetting. Of course, kids become disillusioned with their dad or their mom in the process. But the truth sets people free; there is no getting around that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: You\u2019re not free now, and you won\u2019t be free until you work through it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I want to help couples today who have, maybe, been there.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And they\u2019re feeling like what I felt with our friends:\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014\u201cEven God can\u2019t save this marriage.\u201d God can!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And God does!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How? What steps does a couple need to take?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Okay; to the degree that the spouse who\u2019s been betrayed can forgive\u2014to that degree\u2014they can start rebuilding respect for their spouse. And to the degree they rebuild respect for their spouse, they can start rebuilding trust. And to the degree they rebuild trust, they can rebuild love. It goes: forgiveness, respect, trust, and love. There\u2019s no trust if you don\u2019t respect. But some people have a very difficult time forgiving. Forgiving is a learned response pattern; you can train people to forgive.<\/p>\n<p>If they have so many injuries, they just can\u2019t let go of something, it\u2019s going to be very difficult. I always tell my couples in that first session, \u201cDon\u2019t stay married after adultery if your spouse can\u2019t forgive you. To live with somebody, who can\u2019t forgive you, is hellacious; every day, they make you pay. On the other hand, neither of you want to have a spouse stay married to you out of duty or obligation; that is a horrible way to go through life.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But what happens if that person, who\u2019s been offended, is just so angry;\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Of course, they\u2019ll be angry.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014and they can\u2019t get over their anger for a while? Should they separate, or should they stay there?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Sometimes, separation is good; because seeing the person, visually, just triggers you all the time. We often will do structured separations to help that couple calm down\u2014get the anxiety down, get the hypervigilance down, and everything else\u2014\u201cAnxiety blocks affect.\u201d It does in all of us; that\u2019s a saying in the field. We\u2019ve got to get them to a point that they can begin to process: \u201cWhat was going on back at the time that the affair happened?\u201d But it doesn\u2019t take a long time\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, that\u2019s the question: how long, generally, does it take?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Well, I see couples for 12-14 weeks, 1 hour per week. I do that, basically, only if they agree to invest 20 minutes every other day in their recovery, each one of them. That way, the wife will contribute an hour each week to this marriage; the husband contributes an hour each week to this marriage; and I contribute an hour. I\u2019m not going to contribute an hour if they\u2019re not going to.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What does that look like?\u2014just their counseling?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: No, no! No, no.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: They\u2019re doing homework?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Homework. They\u2019ll be doing homework at home, contributing to their own recovery.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: An example of homework?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: This couple is going to be talking about stuff. Finding out about affairs generates more conversation in most marriages than has occurred in the last 20 years.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: So we\u2019re going to try to control that talking, because it\u2019s not just about the affair. Every week has a theme: the first week is biographical; second week is family of origin; third week is marital style; fourth week is preparation for forgiveness; fifth week is betrayal letter stuff; the sixth week is reestablishment of trust; the next week is five reattachment exercises. It just goes on, and on, and on; okay? The point is: it has to be structured.<\/p>\n<p>You cannot see a couple who\u2019s gone through infidelity and tell them, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you start dating each other? Why don\u2019t you start going\u2026\u201d That is a brawl in the restaurant if you do that kind of stuff. There\u2019s a place for starting to date, but not at the beginning of when you\u2019ve been betrayed. Betrayal is the most painful emotion known to man. Most of us, when we choose a spouse, the thought enters our mind\u2014especially for women, I think more than men; but it does even with men\u2014\u201cI want to make sure he\u201d or \u201c\u2026she\u2019s not going to do this to me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Now, if you come out of a broken home due to adultery, you\u2019re even more hypervigilant about that situation! If you\u2019ve been betrayed by a broken engagement, or by a boyfriend who had relationships with other girls while he was with you, you just can\u2019t hardly get your arms around it; it\u2019s so painful.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Hey, I think what we're talking about is great. As you are listening, if there's<\/p>\n<p>something on today's episode that you're just clicking with, we want you to know that<\/p>\n<p>you're not alone; because every single marriage has its fair share of highs, but also<\/p>\n<p>lows.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And if you're like us, you're wondering, \u201cWhere do we get help?\u201d Well, first of all,<\/p>\n<p>you're getting help right now; and we're thankful that you're listening. But we also want<\/p>\n<p>to share one of our favorite resources. It's a free guide that's filled with helpful marriage<\/p>\n<p>wisdom from real couples who've been where you are. And you can grab your free copy<\/p>\n<p>today at FamilyLife.com\/MarriageHelp; that's FamilyLife.com\/MarriageHelp.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I came out of a broken home when I was a little boy. I don\u2019t even remember this; but my older siblings told me my dad would take me on trips with his girlfriends, on vacation, when he was still married to my mom. So when Ann and I got married, it was just what you said; I had this vigilant passion: \u201cThis is not going to happen in our family.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And it would tend to be like I was going to focus it on her as much as on me.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So there were all these protections we put in our marriage. That\u2019s pretty common?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: That\u2019s right; and sometimes, it becomes control.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Now, remember: let\u2019s just say you grew up in a family, where there was not a lot of connection. Here comes this guy along, and he is very vigilant; actually, control can feel like care.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: It feels like, \u201cHe cares for me. He doesn\u2019t want me to go out; he doesn\u2019t want me to do this or that.\u201d But actually, it will become suffocating. It will lead to your desire to leave and to step outside the marriage. We\u2019re not talking about controlling your spouse in this situation, but there is that tendency to do that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, I thought it was interesting: I asked Dave this morning, as we were getting ready\u2014I think you asked me, Dave, \u201cWhat\u2019s one of the fears that you\u2019ve had in our marriage?\u201d\u2014or maybe I asked you; I don\u2019t remember.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It was only a couple of hours ago; so you know: \u201cHow could we remember that?!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But I said, \u201cI think a spouse having an affair\u2014you having an affair\u2014would be my greatest fear in marriage.\u201d Which, you said, that wasn\u2019t for you. I think, Dave\u2014you even mentioned\u2014it\u2019s more fearful for a woman, generally speaking, than a husband.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, it is; they have more at stake in broken relationships and everything else.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, I obviously would\u2014every guy would\u2014have that fear. I just, still to this day, trust you.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He just trusts me.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s nice.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019m not saying it couldn\u2019t, but it\u2019s just like I never\u2014that was way down; that would be Number 100\u2014I\u2019ve got all kinds of other fears about your life, but not that!\u2014how much money you spend\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: \u2014like bankrupting you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014where the credit card is at, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: No, but that wasn\u2019t it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave, as you were talking about that 12-14 weeks\u2014I read in Torn Asunder that you say\u2014most recovery takes as long as the affair took.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: If it was an 18-month affair, you\u2019re going to be 18 months or 2 years before\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014is that sort of how it goes?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes; there are several things that happen. That 12- to 14-week period will help you process the affair.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Because you\u2019ve got to dig at the root, don\u2019t you?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: You do.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you need a therapist, you would say.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Either that or maybe even a Christian couple, who\u2019ve been through it before; or maybe a peer counselor, who\u2019s had some experience. That\u2019s why I wrote the workbook\u2014the workbook was the last thing I wrote\u2014because people were asking for materials, like, \u201cWhat do you actually do in a session with somebody like this?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; and as we get back to: \u201cOkay, can this marriage be saved?\u201d\u2014you\u2019ve done this for four decades\u2014have you seen marriages that are better because they did the work?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: They made it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: There\u2019s research to substantiate that. Higher levels of marital satisfaction are found in couples who recover from adultery than in any other form of a marital therapy. But understand, you hit rock bottom!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Many of them don\u2019t make it, okay?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: I don\u2019t see the couples, who get on the back of a Harley and ride off with a boyfriend or girlfriend; okay? I only see people who want to save it, for the most part.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m thinking of the couples we know who have worked hard.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: They have put in the work; they\u2019ve gone so deep, and they know one another so much better.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And I look at them, thinking, \u201cWow, you guys!\u201d I never had imagined that they could be this good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes; they become the envy of all their friends.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: They do; exactly.<\/p>\n<p>I see couples 12-14 weeks; that stabilizes the marriage, okay? They\u2019ve learned a lot; they\u2019ve answered the question, \u201cIs there enough left to save?\u201d\u2014that\u2019s a huge question. But they\u2019re still going to be working through this; they\u2019re not going to be done in<\/p>\n<p>14 weeks.<\/p>\n<p>The first-year anniversary of disclosure is always a terrible experience. We talk about\u2014after the stabilization of the marriage in the 12-14 weeks\u2014then comes the grief part. That\u2019s where, sometimes, you\u2019ll just break into tears; because of how close you came to losing everything. Then, there will be times that you\u2019ll just have the greatest ecstasy going with yourselves that you saved it. And many of those kinds of grief experiences will surface around holidays, when you visually take in all that\u2019s happening that could have been lost.<\/p>\n<p>It will take you a couple of years. By the second anniversary, though, you\u2019ll be talking about your affair in a very, very different way. You\u2019ll be using your affair, according to<\/p>\n<p>2 Corinthians 1:3-4, in other people\u2019s lives who desperately need what you have been through; because parents won\u2019t talk about this! Every generation has to go through it; every generation has to go find their own way in this field.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What\u2019s powerful about that is that God rescues.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And, like you said, in 2 Corinthians, He comforts us so that we can comfort others with the comfort that we\u2019ve received.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, yes!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You never think\u2014you don\u2019t know our story\u2014but Ann and I almost lost our marriage, not because of an affair, but just because I\u2019m an idiot, basically. I was addicted to my ministry. I was\u2014you say it in your book, and you\u2019ve already said it on our broadcast\u2014I wasn\u2019t being tender.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I wasn\u2019t being attentive; I was running away from our marriage and almost lost it. And in that moment, I thought, \u201cI\u2019ll never let anybody hear this story. This will be our secret\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014\u201cif we make it.\u201d And we made it; and now, it\u2019s our ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s like the center of what we do. That\u2019s what happens, even with affairs?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes; in fact, I actually tell my couples\u2014they do what we call a final project; It\u2019s a paper they write\u2014the longest paper I\u2019ve ever gotten is 68 pages.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What?!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Whoa!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Four chapters; four chapters; most are not like that. I tell them:<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019re going to use this in several ways. One way: it\u2019s going to be a journal of your recovery. If you\u2019ve ever done journaling, you can\u2019t believe some of the journals you wrote 15-20 years ago. You were \u201cfeeling like this\u201d and \u201cgoing through that.\u201d So it will be your journal.<\/p>\n<p>Secondly, I promise\u2014you don\u2019t even have to pray about it\u2014God will bring a couple to you who needs your help. You will talk to your spouse and get permission; and you\u2019re going to hand them this paper you wrote, and say, \u201cRead this, and see what you think. If we can help you, we\u2019ll walk with you in it, okay?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And the third thing you\u2019re going to do is: you\u2019re going to invite your kids over for dinner when they\u2019re seriously dating or engaged, and you\u2019ll say, \u201cWe want to tell you part of our story that you don\u2019t know that will help prevent this from happening to you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Ugh.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Of course, the wife\u2014the wife\u2019s just panicking\u2014\u201cI\u2019m not going to share this!\u201d And they call me on the phone. I used to tell couples: \u201cIf that goes bad\u2014if that conversation goes bad\u2014you write me. I will write you a check for all you ever paid me.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: \u201cI\u2019ll give it all back to you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That couple that we talked about\u2014she had the affair; five kids\u2014years later, their kids didn\u2019t know it. They were fairly young, so they didn\u2019t share anything.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Years later, they were on a family trip on vacation. Eating dinner, she decided, \u201cI\u2019m going to tell our boys what I did.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Beautiful!! Beautiful!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: She was so nervous. We were all praying for her; this was a big step!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because you\u2019re afraid, like, \u201cWill they reject me?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: She said, \u201cBut my husband\u2014the way he has clung to Jesus; the way he has loved me, forgiven me, supported me\u201d; they\u2019ve had a lot to work through. But I remember, when she got home, we were in small group together. She told all of us; she said, \u201cIt was one of the most beautiful nights that I can imagine.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Exactly! You fear losing respect. What happens is: respect goes through the roof!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s amazing!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: It goes through the roof!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: They gave them an opportunity: \u201cAsk us any questions.\u201d Their respect for their dad grew. And then, what I remember is, she said, \u201cAnd then, one day, weeks later, I heard one of our sons, who was dating a girl, tell her about it. He said, \u2018My parents are pretty remarkable,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014\u201c\u2019that they could make it through. It just says so much about their walk with God and their love for one another and their commitment.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was like, \u201cThis is unbelievable!\u201d That\u2019s an \u201cOnly God\u201d story.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes; I didn\u2019t know how else to encourage them to do it, except, \u201cI\u2019ll give you a refund if it doesn\u2019t work.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That is so great!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: I have never had a taker.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You haven\u2019t?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Never! I\u2019ve had them call me, crying so much on the phone after doing it, that they can\u2019t hardly talk; because they\u2019re just so thrilled with it and the relief that it brings. Remember, the truth sets people free!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Whether it\u2019s 20 years ago or whatever, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, I\u2019m thinking of the listener, who\u2019s in it right now\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014they just discovered their husband or wife has cheated or had an affair\u2014and they don\u2019t know what to do. What\u2019s their first step?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Line up support for yourself; because you can\u2019t, probably, do this on your own. I did a video series called Restore Us, trying to help with some of these. There are some facts, and information, and things like that you can listen\u2014that will be encouraging to you\u2014but it is so painful. You need to have somebody walk through it with you, probably; because talking to your spouse\u2014who either betrayed you, or you\u2019re so angry at because of your involvement with the affair partner\u2014they don\u2019t have the answers.<\/p>\n<p>The problem is\u2014you get mixed up with two questions\u2014you start focusing on: \u201cWhy did you do this!?\u201d and you start focusing on: \u201cWhat did you do?!\u201d\u2014all the details. Well, what are you going to do with all that stuff? Now, I do think that, by the time you recover from an affair, the betrayed party has a right to know an equal amount of the story that the perpetrator does. There needs to be a balance in the marriage. If the spouse, who has the affair, clams up and won\u2019t share, I would tell you, \u201cThey won\u2019t make it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, because this is an equality. Betrayal has to be moving to\u2014well, what would I call it?\u2014kind of an equilibrium, where we both know about the story in an equal amount.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, the good news, as we wrap this, is: \u201cGod can meet you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: He can! He will!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I know there are couples listening right now, and it\u2019s fresh and new. And they\u2019re thinking, \u201cThere\u2019s no hope,\u201d\u2014just what we thought about our friends. As you shared, Dave, it\u2019s like, \u201cWow! They did exactly that,\u201d\u2014they actually separated for a while\u2014because she wasn\u2019t repentant. But she went to therapy; dug deep. He went to therapy; dug deep. They came back together\u2014talked it through\u2014again, this is over several years.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And their friends\u2014all of us\u2014surrounded them.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We were walking beside them. Everything you just said, we did. I just want to say to a couple who\u2019s lost hope: \u201cDon\u2019t give up. Don\u2019t give up yet. God can meet you. Your story could be their story; your legacy could be their legacy.\u201d Literally, sitting at this wedding two days ago, I took a picture of them as they walked in together. I\u2019m going to send it to them, and say, \u201cI took this picture; because I thought, \u2018What if you weren\u2019t together right now? This day doesn\u2019t happen.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: There are a lot of good stories like that. I\u2019ve heard a few of those myself.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We are Dave and Ann Wilson. We've been talking with Dave Carder about his<\/p>\n<p>book, Anatomy of an Affair. And man, remembering that day at the wedding, it really<\/p>\n<p>was a powerful moment that: \u201cThis would not be happening if you guys didn't make it.<\/p>\n<p>And you chose to make it, and you did.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It's such a story of God's redemption and God's miraculous power in our lives and<\/p>\n<p>in a marriage. It really is pretty inspiring.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: If today's topic is right where you're living\u2014or you know someone this book<\/p>\n<p>could really help: Anatomy of an Affair\u2014just go to FamilyLifeToday.com; you can get<\/p>\n<p>the book right there yourself. Or if you'd like to give us a call, just call us at 800-358-<\/p>\n<p>6329. That's 800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word, TODAY.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife.com<\/p>\n"],"_edit_lock":["1769462202:50675"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_0d76ed18937b0deac52816cbe4fe77d9fce71cb1":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" \/]"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_atts_0d76ed18937b0deac52816cbe4fe77d9fce71cb1":["a:17:{s:2:\"to\";s:29:\"margaret.coyle@familylife.com\";s:7:\"subject\";s:72:\"[FamilyLife - A Cru Ministry] My Spouse is Having an Affair: Dave Carder\";s:12:\"show_subject\";s:2:\"no\";s:6:\"widget\";i:0;s:14:\"block_template\";N;s:19:\"block_template_part\";N;s:2:\"id\";i:313761;s:18:\"submit_button_text\";s:6:\"Submit\";s:14:\"customThankyou\";s:0:\"\";s:21:\"customThankyouHeading\";s:26:\"Your message has been sent\";s:21:\"customThankyouMessage\";s:30:\"Thank you for your 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Coyle","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coyle-a9eb952f\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"\u201cMy spouse is having an affair. What do I do now?\u201d Affairs expert Dave Carder walks through searing betrayal, what you need to know, and what to do next.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/davecarder.com\/\">Learn more about Dave Carder on his website<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Purchase \"<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/anatomy-of-affair\/\">The Anatomy of an Affair<\/a>\" by Dave Carder online.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/weekend-to-remember\/\">Find a Weekend to Remember event in your area today!<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-creator\/easter-with-familylife\/\">Find our Resurrection Eggs here<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr \/>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-04-01.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>My Spouse Is Having an Affair<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Dave Carder<\/p>\n<p>From the series:The Anatomy of an Affair (Day 2 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:April 1, 2025<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: You cannot see a couple who\u2019s gone through infidelity and tell them, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you start dating each other? Why don\u2019t you start going\u2026\u201d That is a brawl in the restaurant if you do that kind of stuff. There\u2019s a place for starting to date, but not at the beginning of when you\u2019ve been betrayed. Betrayal is the most painful emotion known to man. But to the degree that the spouse, who\u2019s been betrayed can forgive, to that degree they can start rebuilding respect for their spouse. And to the degree they rebuild respect for their spouse, they can start rebuilding trust. And to the degree they rebuild trust, they can rebuild love. It goes: forgiveness, respect, trust, and love. There\u2019s no trust if you don\u2019t respect.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships<\/p>\n<p>that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So you remember the day we were called to one of our good friend's house<\/p>\n<p>because they just found out his wife had an affair.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, yeah; it was awful.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We met with them within hours of the discovery, and it was just so dark.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It was horrible.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I just felt like, \u201cThere's no chance\u201d;\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Five kids.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014and God saved the marriage. We literally, three days ago, were at one of their<\/p>\n<p>son's wedding.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Isn't that great?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We looked at each other, and thought, \u201cWhat if they had chosen to divorce? This<\/p>\n<p>whole day\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014\u201cwould look different.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014\u201ctotally different.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Oh, it would be very different.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019ve got Dave Carder back with us. Dave has written about affairs: Torn Asunder and Anatomy of an Affair. I don\u2019t know; how many books have you written, Dave?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Five or six.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Five or six.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But they keep being republished,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014because they\u2019re that good. People need help; because affairs, and adultery, and this kind of thing is pretty commonplace; it always has been. Do you know what the statistics are now?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: There\u2019s a lot of research in the field; but until recently\u2014within the last six or seven years, it\u2019s all been about frequency stuff\u2014\u201cHow many\/what percentages of people acknowledge it?\u201d Many of them are online surveys, so there\u2019s some skepticism about those numbers; but basically, it\u2019s pretty safe to say about half of the population acknowledges some type of marital infidelity. There used to be quite a gap between men and women. We used to see numbers around the lower 60s\/mid-60s for men, percentages; and maybe in the 40s for women. But I would tell you, anecdotally and experientially, that they\u2019re just pretty much equal right now.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Women have a lot to lose if they have an affair; men don\u2019t forgive as easily in this area as women do.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: No, they feel so inadequate; it\u2019s such a threat to their manhood and everything. Women have probably been more conditioned to forgive. Up until 1990\u2014up until then\u2014you had two choices: you swept it under the rug, or you got a divorce. There was no treatment! Treating adultery was an oxymoron. It was impossible: \u201cWhoever thought of that?!\u201d type of thing.<\/p>\n<p>But that\u2019s all beginning to change. We have a couple of really great researchers in the field, who are having a hard time; because you can find the couples, but you can\u2019t keep them in the therapy process long enough to document the data that you really want or to collect the data you really want. But we have learned a few things; and we\u2019re continuing to expose ideas, etcetera.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019ve written about this; and also worked at a church\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014for almost four decades,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014helping therapists and having peer therapy.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Are the stats different in the church world than outside?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: I wouldn\u2019t say they\u2019re much different at all.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: I\u2019ll give you some documentation for that. Back in \u201988, we started collecting data on pastors\u2014out of CT Leadership, surveys that they had done\u2014we went through pastoral conferences for a year, collecting surveys, etcetera. Basically, compiled all that; we had an ingroup or a cluster group of about 4,000 pastors over<\/p>\n<p>10 years, 1988-1998. Basically, about 10 to 12 percent of them actually acknowledged that they had committed adultery in their marriage. But the interesting statistic was: 14 additional percent of 4,000 respondents said they had lied on the survey\u201414 percent. What is there to lie about?\u2014it\u2019s a \u201cYes,\u201d or \u201cNo,\u201d question. If you take that 14 percent and the 14 percent or so beforehand, you\u2019re up close to 30 percent. Actually, just given the nature of research like that, we would speculate it would be close to 40. And there have been frequency surveys that do document 40 percent of pastors.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: So if you\u2019ve got pastors doing that, you just extrapolate down to the parishioners in the pew; and it\u2019s just terribly frequent.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Dave, we have had individuals come up to us often, who have said, \u201cHey, I cheated on my husband or wife years ago. Now, it\u2019s been ten or fifteen years. I\u2019m guilt-ridden, because it\u2019s eating me away.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cShould I tell my spouse? And now, it will become all this big deal.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What would you say to that? Don\u2019t you think we\u2019ve had that often?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Sure.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Oh, you do all the time; all the time. The issue is: \u201cIf you want to work through it, you\u2019ll have to disclose.\u201d In the book, Torn Asunder, there\u2019s a chart that talks about that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: And if you process it, but you don\u2019t disclose it, then you really kind of forfeit the opportunity for it to impact the marriage in a good way.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you think it could impact the marriage in a good way?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Oh, I definitely think so. One of the things you can always say to a spouse, who\u2019s betrayed like that, is, \u201cYou know, it took a lot of courage to belly up to the bar; so let\u2019s start working on it. What was going on back there when that occurred?\u201d and \u201cWe\u2019ll figure it out.\u201d Of course, it is upsetting. Of course, kids become disillusioned with their dad or their mom in the process. But the truth sets people free; there is no getting around that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: You\u2019re not free now, and you won\u2019t be free until you work through it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I want to help couples today who have, maybe, been there.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And they\u2019re feeling like what I felt with our friends:\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014\u201cEven God can\u2019t save this marriage.\u201d God can!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And God does!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How? What steps does a couple need to take?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Okay; to the degree that the spouse who\u2019s been betrayed can forgive\u2014to that degree\u2014they can start rebuilding respect for their spouse. And to the degree they rebuild respect for their spouse, they can start rebuilding trust. And to the degree they rebuild trust, they can rebuild love. It goes: forgiveness, respect, trust, and love. There\u2019s no trust if you don\u2019t respect. But some people have a very difficult time forgiving. Forgiving is a learned response pattern; you can train people to forgive.<\/p>\n<p>If they have so many injuries, they just can\u2019t let go of something, it\u2019s going to be very difficult. I always tell my couples in that first session, \u201cDon\u2019t stay married after adultery if your spouse can\u2019t forgive you. To live with somebody, who can\u2019t forgive you, is hellacious; every day, they make you pay. On the other hand, neither of you want to have a spouse stay married to you out of duty or obligation; that is a horrible way to go through life.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But what happens if that person, who\u2019s been offended, is just so angry;\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Of course, they\u2019ll be angry.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014and they can\u2019t get over their anger for a while? Should they separate, or should they stay there?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Sometimes, separation is good; because seeing the person, visually, just triggers you all the time. We often will do structured separations to help that couple calm down\u2014get the anxiety down, get the hypervigilance down, and everything else\u2014\u201cAnxiety blocks affect.\u201d It does in all of us; that\u2019s a saying in the field. We\u2019ve got to get them to a point that they can begin to process: \u201cWhat was going on back at the time that the affair happened?\u201d But it doesn\u2019t take a long time\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, that\u2019s the question: how long, generally, does it take?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Well, I see couples for 12-14 weeks, 1 hour per week. I do that, basically, only if they agree to invest 20 minutes every other day in their recovery, each one of them. That way, the wife will contribute an hour each week to this marriage; the husband contributes an hour each week to this marriage; and I contribute an hour. I\u2019m not going to contribute an hour if they\u2019re not going to.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What does that look like?\u2014just their counseling?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: No, no! No, no.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: They\u2019re doing homework?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Homework. They\u2019ll be doing homework at home, contributing to their own recovery.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: An example of homework?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: This couple is going to be talking about stuff. Finding out about affairs generates more conversation in most marriages than has occurred in the last 20 years.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: So we\u2019re going to try to control that talking, because it\u2019s not just about the affair. Every week has a theme: the first week is biographical; second week is family of origin; third week is marital style; fourth week is preparation for forgiveness; fifth week is betrayal letter stuff; the sixth week is reestablishment of trust; the next week is five reattachment exercises. It just goes on, and on, and on; okay? The point is: it has to be structured.<\/p>\n<p>You cannot see a couple who\u2019s gone through infidelity and tell them, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you start dating each other? Why don\u2019t you start going\u2026\u201d That is a brawl in the restaurant if you do that kind of stuff. There\u2019s a place for starting to date, but not at the beginning of when you\u2019ve been betrayed. Betrayal is the most painful emotion known to man. Most of us, when we choose a spouse, the thought enters our mind\u2014especially for women, I think more than men; but it does even with men\u2014\u201cI want to make sure he\u201d or \u201c\u2026she\u2019s not going to do this to me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Now, if you come out of a broken home due to adultery, you\u2019re even more hypervigilant about that situation! If you\u2019ve been betrayed by a broken engagement, or by a boyfriend who had relationships with other girls while he was with you, you just can\u2019t hardly get your arms around it; it\u2019s so painful.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Hey, I think what we're talking about is great. As you are listening, if there's<\/p>\n<p>something on today's episode that you're just clicking with, we want you to know that<\/p>\n<p>you're not alone; because every single marriage has its fair share of highs, but also<\/p>\n<p>lows.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And if you're like us, you're wondering, \u201cWhere do we get help?\u201d Well, first of all,<\/p>\n<p>you're getting help right now; and we're thankful that you're listening. But we also want<\/p>\n<p>to share one of our favorite resources. It's a free guide that's filled with helpful marriage<\/p>\n<p>wisdom from real couples who've been where you are. And you can grab your free copy<\/p>\n<p>today at FamilyLife.com\/MarriageHelp; that's FamilyLife.com\/MarriageHelp.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I came out of a broken home when I was a little boy. I don\u2019t even remember this; but my older siblings told me my dad would take me on trips with his girlfriends, on vacation, when he was still married to my mom. So when Ann and I got married, it was just what you said; I had this vigilant passion: \u201cThis is not going to happen in our family.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And it would tend to be like I was going to focus it on her as much as on me.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So there were all these protections we put in our marriage. That\u2019s pretty common?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: That\u2019s right; and sometimes, it becomes control.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Now, remember: let\u2019s just say you grew up in a family, where there was not a lot of connection. Here comes this guy along, and he is very vigilant; actually, control can feel like care.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: It feels like, \u201cHe cares for me. He doesn\u2019t want me to go out; he doesn\u2019t want me to do this or that.\u201d But actually, it will become suffocating. It will lead to your desire to leave and to step outside the marriage. We\u2019re not talking about controlling your spouse in this situation, but there is that tendency to do that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, I thought it was interesting: I asked Dave this morning, as we were getting ready\u2014I think you asked me, Dave, \u201cWhat\u2019s one of the fears that you\u2019ve had in our marriage?\u201d\u2014or maybe I asked you; I don\u2019t remember.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It was only a couple of hours ago; so you know: \u201cHow could we remember that?!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But I said, \u201cI think a spouse having an affair\u2014you having an affair\u2014would be my greatest fear in marriage.\u201d Which, you said, that wasn\u2019t for you. I think, Dave\u2014you even mentioned\u2014it\u2019s more fearful for a woman, generally speaking, than a husband.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, it is; they have more at stake in broken relationships and everything else.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, I obviously would\u2014every guy would\u2014have that fear. I just, still to this day, trust you.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He just trusts me.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s nice.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019m not saying it couldn\u2019t, but it\u2019s just like I never\u2014that was way down; that would be Number 100\u2014I\u2019ve got all kinds of other fears about your life, but not that!\u2014how much money you spend\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: \u2014like bankrupting you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014where the credit card is at, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: No, but that wasn\u2019t it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave, as you were talking about that 12-14 weeks\u2014I read in Torn Asunder that you say\u2014most recovery takes as long as the affair took.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: If it was an 18-month affair, you\u2019re going to be 18 months or 2 years before\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014is that sort of how it goes?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes; there are several things that happen. That 12- to 14-week period will help you process the affair.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Because you\u2019ve got to dig at the root, don\u2019t you?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: You do.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you need a therapist, you would say.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Either that or maybe even a Christian couple, who\u2019ve been through it before; or maybe a peer counselor, who\u2019s had some experience. That\u2019s why I wrote the workbook\u2014the workbook was the last thing I wrote\u2014because people were asking for materials, like, \u201cWhat do you actually do in a session with somebody like this?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; and as we get back to: \u201cOkay, can this marriage be saved?\u201d\u2014you\u2019ve done this for four decades\u2014have you seen marriages that are better because they did the work?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: They made it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: There\u2019s research to substantiate that. Higher levels of marital satisfaction are found in couples who recover from adultery than in any other form of a marital therapy. But understand, you hit rock bottom!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Many of them don\u2019t make it, okay?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: I don\u2019t see the couples, who get on the back of a Harley and ride off with a boyfriend or girlfriend; okay? I only see people who want to save it, for the most part.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m thinking of the couples we know who have worked hard.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: They have put in the work; they\u2019ve gone so deep, and they know one another so much better.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And I look at them, thinking, \u201cWow, you guys!\u201d I never had imagined that they could be this good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes; they become the envy of all their friends.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: They do; exactly.<\/p>\n<p>I see couples 12-14 weeks; that stabilizes the marriage, okay? They\u2019ve learned a lot; they\u2019ve answered the question, \u201cIs there enough left to save?\u201d\u2014that\u2019s a huge question. But they\u2019re still going to be working through this; they\u2019re not going to be done in<\/p>\n<p>14 weeks.<\/p>\n<p>The first-year anniversary of disclosure is always a terrible experience. We talk about\u2014after the stabilization of the marriage in the 12-14 weeks\u2014then comes the grief part. That\u2019s where, sometimes, you\u2019ll just break into tears; because of how close you came to losing everything. Then, there will be times that you\u2019ll just have the greatest ecstasy going with yourselves that you saved it. And many of those kinds of grief experiences will surface around holidays, when you visually take in all that\u2019s happening that could have been lost.<\/p>\n<p>It will take you a couple of years. By the second anniversary, though, you\u2019ll be talking about your affair in a very, very different way. You\u2019ll be using your affair, according to<\/p>\n<p>2 Corinthians 1:3-4, in other people\u2019s lives who desperately need what you have been through; because parents won\u2019t talk about this! Every generation has to go through it; every generation has to go find their own way in this field.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What\u2019s powerful about that is that God rescues.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And, like you said, in 2 Corinthians, He comforts us so that we can comfort others with the comfort that we\u2019ve received.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, yes!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You never think\u2014you don\u2019t know our story\u2014but Ann and I almost lost our marriage, not because of an affair, but just because I\u2019m an idiot, basically. I was addicted to my ministry. I was\u2014you say it in your book, and you\u2019ve already said it on our broadcast\u2014I wasn\u2019t being tender.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I wasn\u2019t being attentive; I was running away from our marriage and almost lost it. And in that moment, I thought, \u201cI\u2019ll never let anybody hear this story. This will be our secret\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014\u201cif we make it.\u201d And we made it; and now, it\u2019s our ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s like the center of what we do. That\u2019s what happens, even with affairs?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes; in fact, I actually tell my couples\u2014they do what we call a final project; It\u2019s a paper they write\u2014the longest paper I\u2019ve ever gotten is 68 pages.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What?!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Whoa!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Four chapters; four chapters; most are not like that. I tell them:<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019re going to use this in several ways. One way: it\u2019s going to be a journal of your recovery. If you\u2019ve ever done journaling, you can\u2019t believe some of the journals you wrote 15-20 years ago. You were \u201cfeeling like this\u201d and \u201cgoing through that.\u201d So it will be your journal.<\/p>\n<p>Secondly, I promise\u2014you don\u2019t even have to pray about it\u2014God will bring a couple to you who needs your help. You will talk to your spouse and get permission; and you\u2019re going to hand them this paper you wrote, and say, \u201cRead this, and see what you think. If we can help you, we\u2019ll walk with you in it, okay?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And the third thing you\u2019re going to do is: you\u2019re going to invite your kids over for dinner when they\u2019re seriously dating or engaged, and you\u2019ll say, \u201cWe want to tell you part of our story that you don\u2019t know that will help prevent this from happening to you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Ugh.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Of course, the wife\u2014the wife\u2019s just panicking\u2014\u201cI\u2019m not going to share this!\u201d And they call me on the phone. I used to tell couples: \u201cIf that goes bad\u2014if that conversation goes bad\u2014you write me. I will write you a check for all you ever paid me.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: \u201cI\u2019ll give it all back to you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That couple that we talked about\u2014she had the affair; five kids\u2014years later, their kids didn\u2019t know it. They were fairly young, so they didn\u2019t share anything.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Years later, they were on a family trip on vacation. Eating dinner, she decided, \u201cI\u2019m going to tell our boys what I did.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Beautiful!! Beautiful!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: She was so nervous. We were all praying for her; this was a big step!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because you\u2019re afraid, like, \u201cWill they reject me?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: She said, \u201cBut my husband\u2014the way he has clung to Jesus; the way he has loved me, forgiven me, supported me\u201d; they\u2019ve had a lot to work through. But I remember, when she got home, we were in small group together. She told all of us; she said, \u201cIt was one of the most beautiful nights that I can imagine.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Exactly! You fear losing respect. What happens is: respect goes through the roof!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s amazing!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: It goes through the roof!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: They gave them an opportunity: \u201cAsk us any questions.\u201d Their respect for their dad grew. And then, what I remember is, she said, \u201cAnd then, one day, weeks later, I heard one of our sons, who was dating a girl, tell her about it. He said, \u2018My parents are pretty remarkable,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014\u201c\u2019that they could make it through. It just says so much about their walk with God and their love for one another and their commitment.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was like, \u201cThis is unbelievable!\u201d That\u2019s an \u201cOnly God\u201d story.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes; I didn\u2019t know how else to encourage them to do it, except, \u201cI\u2019ll give you a refund if it doesn\u2019t work.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That is so great!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: I have never had a taker.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You haven\u2019t?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Never! I\u2019ve had them call me, crying so much on the phone after doing it, that they can\u2019t hardly talk; because they\u2019re just so thrilled with it and the relief that it brings. Remember, the truth sets people free!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Whether it\u2019s 20 years ago or whatever, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, I\u2019m thinking of the listener, who\u2019s in it right now\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014they just discovered their husband or wife has cheated or had an affair\u2014and they don\u2019t know what to do. What\u2019s their first step?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Line up support for yourself; because you can\u2019t, probably, do this on your own. I did a video series called Restore Us, trying to help with some of these. There are some facts, and information, and things like that you can listen\u2014that will be encouraging to you\u2014but it is so painful. You need to have somebody walk through it with you, probably; because talking to your spouse\u2014who either betrayed you, or you\u2019re so angry at because of your involvement with the affair partner\u2014they don\u2019t have the answers.<\/p>\n<p>The problem is\u2014you get mixed up with two questions\u2014you start focusing on: \u201cWhy did you do this!?\u201d and you start focusing on: \u201cWhat did you do?!\u201d\u2014all the details. Well, what are you going to do with all that stuff? Now, I do think that, by the time you recover from an affair, the betrayed party has a right to know an equal amount of the story that the perpetrator does. There needs to be a balance in the marriage. If the spouse, who has the affair, clams up and won\u2019t share, I would tell you, \u201cThey won\u2019t make it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, because this is an equality. Betrayal has to be moving to\u2014well, what would I call it?\u2014kind of an equilibrium, where we both know about the story in an equal amount.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, the good news, as we wrap this, is: \u201cGod can meet you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: He can! He will!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I know there are couples listening right now, and it\u2019s fresh and new. And they\u2019re thinking, \u201cThere\u2019s no hope,\u201d\u2014just what we thought about our friends. As you shared, Dave, it\u2019s like, \u201cWow! They did exactly that,\u201d\u2014they actually separated for a while\u2014because she wasn\u2019t repentant. But she went to therapy; dug deep. He went to therapy; dug deep. They came back together\u2014talked it through\u2014again, this is over several years.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And their friends\u2014all of us\u2014surrounded them.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We were walking beside them. Everything you just said, we did. I just want to say to a couple who\u2019s lost hope: \u201cDon\u2019t give up. Don\u2019t give up yet. God can meet you. Your story could be their story; your legacy could be their legacy.\u201d Literally, sitting at this wedding two days ago, I took a picture of them as they walked in together. I\u2019m going to send it to them, and say, \u201cI took this picture; because I thought, \u2018What if you weren\u2019t together right now? This day doesn\u2019t happen.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: There are a lot of good stories like that. I\u2019ve heard a few of those myself.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We are Dave and Ann Wilson. We've been talking with Dave Carder about his<\/p>\n<p>book, Anatomy of an Affair. And man, remembering that day at the wedding, it really<\/p>\n<p>was a powerful moment that: \u201cThis would not be happening if you guys didn't make it.<\/p>\n<p>And you chose to make it, and you did.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It's such a story of God's redemption and God's miraculous power in our lives and<\/p>\n<p>in a marriage. It really is pretty inspiring.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: If today's topic is right where you're living\u2014or you know someone this book<\/p>\n<p>could really help: Anatomy of an Affair\u2014just go to FamilyLifeToday.com; you can get<\/p>\n<p>the book right there yourself. Or if you'd like to give us a call, just call us at 800-358-<\/p>\n<p>6329. That's 800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word, TODAY.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife.com<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/313761","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=313761"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/312569"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=313761"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=313761"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=313761"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=313761"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=313761"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=313761"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}