{"id":313649,"date":"2025-03-24T07:00:00","date_gmt":"2025-03-24T11:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/is-god-really-gentle-and-lowly-2\/"},"modified":"2025-03-27T12:33:18","modified_gmt":"2025-03-27T16:33:18","slug":"is-god-really-gentle-and-lowly-2","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/is-god-really-gentle-and-lowly-2\/","title":{"rendered":"Is God Really &#8220;Gentle and Lowly&#8221;?"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Where is God in our families&#8217; lowest moments? Bestselling author Dane Ortlund paints an image of a God in the mess with us at rock-bottom&#8211;who&#8217;s advocating and compassionate, gentle and lowly.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Where is God in our families&#8217; lowest moments? Bestselling author Dane Ortlund paints an image of a God in the mess with us at rock-bottom&#8211;who&#8217;s advocating and compassionate, gentle and lowly.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":312569,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/50ec6e39-ac05-4dca-afd0-b292013d33dc\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:23:46","filesize":"21.80M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2025-03-24 07:00:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[8490],"cwp_profile":[3628],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-313649","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","podcast_series-gentle-and-lowly","cwp_profile-dane-ortlund","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2025\/02\/image_bbee74.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/313649\/is-god-really-gentle-and-lowly-2","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/313649\/is-god-really-gentle-and-lowly-2","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"7yYf3fTMiZ\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/is-god-really-gentle-and-lowly-2\/\">Is God Really &#8220;Gentle and Lowly&#8221;?<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/is-god-really-gentle-and-lowly-2\/embed\/#?secret=7yYf3fTMiZ\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Is God Really &#8220;Gentle and Lowly&#8221;?&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"7yYf3fTMiZ\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["50ec6e39-ac05-4dca-afd0-b292013d33dc"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/50ec6e39-ac05-4dca-afd0-b292013d33dc\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:23:46"],"filesize":["21.80M"],"_thumbnail_id":["312569"],"show_notes":["<ul>\n<li>Learn more about Dane Ortlund at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.daneortlund.com\/\">Daneortlund.com<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/gentle-and-lowly-the-heart-of-christ-for-sinners-and-sufferers\/\">Get his book, \"Gentle and Lowly\" in our FamilyLife shop<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Learn more about our Weekend to Remember events at <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/weekend-to-remember\/\">weekendtoremember.com<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr \/>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-03-24.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>Is God Really \u201cGentle and Lowly\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Dane Ortlund<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Gentle and Lowly (Day 1 of 3)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:March 24, 2025<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Okay, here you go. I\u2019m going to give you five seconds; you\u2019ve got to give me three words that describe the heart of Jesus. Go!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, perfect\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Five seconds; done.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014redeemer, grace.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Perfect, redeemer, grace.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I guess that\u2019s not the heart I was just describing to you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But that\u2019s your heart as you think about Jesus. You know, what\u2019s really interesting is\u2014a lot of us don\u2019t know this\u2014Jesus actually described His heart with two words that we\u2019re going to talk about today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the<\/p>\n<p>relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And I'm Ann Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019ve got Dane Ortlund in the studio with us today. He wrote a book about the two words that define the heart of Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>Dane, welcome to FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: It\u2019s great to be talking with you guys today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So you got to fly down. I know you\u2019re pastor of Naperville Presbyterian up in the Chicago suburbs. You flew down here with your wife, Stacey, to Orlando. I didn\u2019t know this \u2018til you got here and had lunch, that you just left five kids at home.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: We did. It has been\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How\u2019s that feel?<\/p>\n<p>Dane: It feels great. We\u2019re going to miss them terribly tonight; but for now, we\u2019re going to enjoy 24 hours of calm. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re going out to dinner tonight\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dane: We are; we are.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014all by yourselves. You can actually talk without interruption.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: That\u2019s right; that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s going to be fun.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And you know what? I shouldn\u2019t even bring this up, but you shared something at lunch that was precious. You\u2019ve got four boys and a little girl. Do you remember what she wrote to you? She gave you a card yesterday.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: She did. She wrote us a card; and she had about 30 little clipped \u201cI love you!!\u201d [stickers] tucked into a taped-on gaudy\/taped-on colored pocket. It was the back of one of their homework sheets. That was just her own little heart pouring out.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s precious.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s so sweet.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And what did you get from the boys?<\/p>\n<p>Dane: That\u2019s a very short answer, Dave. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cSee you, Dad.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dane: \u201cSee you later!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, because we had three boys, I knew what that answer was going to be.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: They didn\u2019t give us anything.<\/p>\n<p>Anyway, we are talking about a book that you wrote\u2014actually, more than the book\u2014the whole idea of the heart of Jesus. I got your book from our son, Austin, when it came out. It was one of these books\u2014and you know, as a pastor, and even as an author\u2014there\u2019s a lot of books written about a lot of things, and you pick them up and you read. This was one of these\u2014I don\u2019t think anybody\u2019s ever felt this about our books\u2014\u201cI can\u2019t put this down; this is a life-changing truth that I\u2019ve got to read.\u201d But when I picked up Gentle and Lowly, it\u2019s one of those things, where I ran down to the kitchen and said, \u201cAnn, you have to read this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So Dane, I pick up your book. I start underlining; and I thought, \u201cOkay, this is ridiculous\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: [Laughter]\u2014underlining everything.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014\u201cevery page, every sentence is underlined. [Laughter] I need to, at least, highlight.\u201d But it felt like all of it needed to be highlighted, because I need it. I think we all need it. As listeners\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dane: I sure do.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014you\u2019re going to love this; because we\u2019re really getting to the heart of who Jesus is, and we\u2019re getting to the heart of how He feels about us. I tell you\u2014we were praying before we even began\u2014and I was teary, because I need this.<\/p>\n<p>Dane, you even start the book\u2014and this caught me from the beginning\u2014you say, \u201cThis book is written for the discouraged, the frustrated, the weary, the disenchanted, the cynical, the empty, those running on fumes, those whose Christian lives feel like constantly running up a descending escalator.\u201d I read that, and I thought: \u201cYes,\u201d \u201cYes,\u201d \u201cYes.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dane: \u201cCheck, check, check\u201d; yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, and I think so many of us feel like that. We want this overwhelming love for Jesus; but I think certain personalities, especially, feel like we\u2019re continually failing. This book is a breath of fresh air and a great reminder of who God is\/of who Jesus is.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So talk about how you started understanding it. I already mentioned there\u2019s two words that sort of Jesus used, so tell us about the whole genesis of this concept.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Well, I feel like I'm a toddler in it, Dave. I'm still learning. This is like an ocean I'm ankle deep in wading out into. Christ Himself, in the one place where He tells us what His heart is, when He is setting the terms\u2014this is not one of the apostles talking about him; this is not one of the letters in the New Testament\u2014He says the most astonishing thing. Who would have guessed, that in the one place where He opens up His heart, He doesn\u2019t say [elevated voice], \u201cI\u2019m joyful and exalted in heart,\u201d or any hundred other true things.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: He says, \u201cI am way down low and extremely accessible: \u2018I\u2019m gentle and lowly in heart.\u2019\u201d That\u2019s the Savior we can enjoy being disciples to.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, it\u2019s interesting when I\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014and that\u2019s the name of the book. I don\u2019t think we said\/did we say the name of the book?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s the name of the book, Gentle and Lowly. [Laughter] I mean, it\u2019s interesting; when I read that in your first chapter, I\u2019m like, \u201cHow many times have I read Matthew 11\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014\u201cread these words and missed that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s something you shouldn\u2019t miss. I preached on that passage, and I missed it!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I don\u2019t even think we know what that means.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Now, that\u2019s the next question: Explain \u201cgentle\u201d and \u201clowly.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Well, when He said He\u2019s gentle in heart, what He\u2019s saying, guys, is He is the most tender, and non-manipulative, nonabrasive, approachable person in the universe. The high and holy Christ\u2014the resurrected Christ; the one, who in Revelation 1, the Apostle John sees and falls down as if dead; the one, who the impenitent in<\/p>\n<p>Revelation 6, want the mountains to fall on them so they don\u2019t have to face His wrath\u2014that Christ, most deeply, by His own testimony, is gentle.<\/p>\n<p>And He says He\u2019s lowly. This is almost more wonderful!\u2014you don\u2019t have to go through security to get to him; you don\u2019t have to take a ticket and get in line; He\u2019s not going to put you on hold; you don\u2019t have to raise your voice\u2014that divine and holy, eternally existing Son of God, is way down low next to me in my worst, not waiting for me to get my act together, and then He\u2019ll open the door to me.<\/p>\n<p>This is so profound and wonderful, guys; because we deeply resist this. We do not believe this; we hold it at arm\u2019s length. I very much resonate with what you said earlier, Ann. We stiff-arm this reflexively. The three of us and our listeners are taking a lifetime to unlearn the bad theology that Jesus is not gentle and lowly in heart.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and why do we resist it? You are so right. That isn\u2019t who I\u2019ve always believed Jesus to be, and I\u2019m not saying my beliefs are right\u2014they\u2019re actually inaccurate\u2014but we\u2019ve carried that our whole lives. In some ways, we even resist hearing this.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: We do; I do. I do\u2014I\u2019m going to roll out of bed tomorrow morning\u2014and I will not believe that. I mean, I\u2019ll believe it on paper; but the Christ that I believe I\u2019m approaching, when I roll out of bed in the morning, is not gentle and lowly in heart. He is looking at His watch, tapping His foot\u2014loves me and likes me\u2014but \u201cDane\/dufus, come on dude! You\u2019re a pastor! Why are you so weird, selfish, proud and sinful?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t know why we resist it\u2014Dave, to answer your question\u2014I don\u2019t know the answer except that we are sinners. I believe that what we do, without realizing it, is we project Christ\u2014we think the Christ who is there\u2014is a bigger, better, smiley-er version of us. We are not gentle and lowly in our deepest heart. The heart is your motivation headquarters\/what pours out of you. We\u2019re not that way, so we think that Jesus is just a better version of us. The Scripture is defying us at that point\/correcting us.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What prompted you to write this? Like this has to be\u2014I can tell this is from a fire within you\u2014so what made you think, \u201cThis is what we need\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Dane: It\u2019s not the Jesus that I have been walking with most of my life\u2014I was raised in a great family; and I\u2019ve been in great churches; I\u2019ve been surrounded by great books\/godly people\u2014but I was confronted with the writings of an old dead theologian named Thomas Goodwin, who lived 400 years ago in England\u2014he put my face in the Scriptures: Old Testament and New; Matthew 11:29 is the tip of the iceberg, but the whole\/it\u2019s just consistent with the whole testimony of Scripture.<\/p>\n<p>He [Goodwin] said, \u201cHey Dane, I want you to see what Christ\u2019s heart is.\u201d He wrote a book called The Heart of Christ in Heaven Towards Sinners on Earth in which he is trying to say: \u201cYou think\u2014you disciples of Christ\u2014you think, in this modern time, that because Jesus is way up high now, He\u2019s a little more distant, cool, calculating, and removed.\u201d He just says, \u201cDon\u2019t you dare go through life believing that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It was Goodwin, along with a few others, who said: \u201cYou can actually believe the whole Bible and be kind of\u201d\u2014I\u2019m pretty conservative in my theology, guys\u2014\u201cand you can talk about the effusive flood-like love of God that soaks\/irrigates us at our worst more strongly than any other place in my life,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s too good to be true, almost.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And it\u2019s so compelling\u2014like that love\/that description of what you just painted of our Savior\u2014that makes us run to Him.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Amen.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Hey, I just wanted to take a quick minute to jump in and say, \u201cWhatever you're<\/p>\n<p>going through today\u2014listen to this\u2014you aren't alone.\u201d I don't know if you know this, but<\/p>\n<p>Dave and I have a team at FamilyLife Today ready to pray for you. It's this incredible<\/p>\n<p>honor and privilege just to lift your name up to God. So if you need prayer, please,<\/p>\n<p>please reach out to us. You can head on over to FamilyLife.com\/PrayForMe; again,<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife.com\/PrayForMe. Tell us: \u201cHow can we pray for you?\u201d And we're not kidding,<\/p>\n<p>Dave and I have a prayer team specifically dedicated to praying for our listeners,<\/p>\n<p>praying for you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You are not alone. We would love to lift you up by name. So again, go to<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife.com\/PrayForMe; and we will pray for you today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I remember\u2014I grew up in a single-parent home with my mom, and\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, you\u2019re going to talk about your picture!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; I haven\u2019t mentioned this in years. Dane, when you were talking, I was remembering this picture my mom used to have over our fireplace. This is the \u201850s\/\u201960s Jesus\/image of praying hands, Jesus\u2019. Some of our listeners will remember this; it was pretty popular, but it\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dane: I can picture it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014sort of an oil painting. It\u2019s got the hands, and He\u2019s got sort of a halo effect on it\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014very solemn<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014long hair. I remember\u2014you know, I didn\u2019t go to church much\u2014but when I did, I never saw a Jesus like you were talking about, Dane. I always saw a judging, holy, wrathful God\u2014which He\u2019s holy\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dane: \u2014which He is,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014and there is a wrath.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: \u2014100 percent.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I would walk\u2014I remember as a teenager\u2014and I\u2019m not making very good life choices as a teenager, and I know it; I know I\u2019m not doing what my mom wants\u2014I\u2019m sort of copying the sins of my father, who is an alcoholic and a womanizer. Here I am, 17 years old. I would walk through the living room by myself, especially as it was like twilight\u2014six\/seven o\u2019clock at night\u2014I\u2019d look over, and I would swear the eyes were just following me through the living room. I remember feeling fear.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019d look up; it\u2019s like\u2014and here\u2019s what I thought, \u201cHe\u2019s watching me,\u201d and \u201cHe\u2019s really disappointed,\u201d\u2014just like you said\u2014like, \u201cYou know better, dude; what are you doing?\u201d That was my view of Jesus and God; it was like: \u201cThat\u2019s who He is.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You also described Him as the game, Whac-A-Mole\u00ae.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; you remember Whac-A-Mole?<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Oh, sure; oh, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s what I just thought: \u201cGod just sits up there; and He waits for you to enjoy life, and say, \u2018Stop it.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So this [new] image\u2014and it\u2019s so beautiful\u2014because, Dane, you said Jesus uses these words about His own heart; it isn\u2019t somebody else talking about Himself. He uses these words, I\u2019m guessing, because He\u2019s like, \u201cThis is what you need to know about Me. Of all the things I could tell you, you need to understand this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dane: \u2014\u201cif nothing else; everything is footnotes to that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I believe that Jesus Christ is holy; the wrath of the Lamb will be experienced one day by all the impenitent. He is all-seeing; He is the ruler of the cosmos and a hundred other truths in that direction. It\u2019s that Christ who\u2014oh, we are hardwired to be Whac-A-Mole theologians for sure, including me, Dave\u2014I mean, we have Matthew 11 there, where He says that. But then, on every page of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, we don\u2019t see that kind of Jesus on your living room wall, as you were growing up, Dave.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes; right.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: It\u2019s someone who\u2014actually, He apparently is drawn like a magnet to the distressed\u2014the kind of people you quoted earlier\u2014and the frustrated, the disenchanted; i.e., all of us! [Laughter] This is all of us, all the time, in some degree. That\u2019s not the periphery of believers; that\u2019s what we\u2019re all navigating all the time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes; well, you even say, \u201cWhen you come to Christ for mercy, and love, and help, you are cooperating with His deepest heart\u2019s desire; and this brings Him joy. It doesn\u2019t bother Him, or drain or irritate Him; He wants us to come to Him. He lives for this: the joy of seeing His people forgiven.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What a different picture!<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Oh, it\u2019s so different; isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: I mean, Goodwin, and the Puritans, and others\u2014they would talk like this\u2014\u201cIt is Jesus Christ\u2019s own deepest comfort when you draw from the riches of His atoning blood.\u201d In other words: \u201cWhen I sin, I\u2019m feeling guilty; I\u2019m feeling ashamed; and I\u2019m cowering. I\u2019m lurking and withdrawing.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We\u2019re hiding.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: \u2014hiding: \u201cI\u2019ll give it a week; and then, you know, if I have a good week, then I\u2019ll approach Him.\u201d But actually, that is what saddens Christ\u2019s heart. What He wants\/the whole reason He came is so that we can come to Him when we are at our deepest point of need, not once we\u2019re all cleaned up.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Let me ask you\u2014I mean, this gets into a practical question\u2014\u201cHow has this changed your parenting? How do you relay this onto your kids?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Oh man, I want it to change my parenting more than it is. Man, we have five little ones. I wrote this book to me, because I\u2019m Type A\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Me too.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: \u2014judgmental, opinionated, harsh, inpatient: \u201cGet your act together! \u201d\u2014and I\u2019m unlearning this myself. What I long to do is to gently give my kids a picture of Jesus, and of the heavenly Father, such that, when they leave the home at age 18, they can\u2019t ever believe that Jesus is going to hold them at arm\u2019s length when they are in sin. I want them to never be able to believe that finally.<\/p>\n<p>When they\u2019re really young, I want to give them a picture of the Father\u2019s heart as their dad. When the kids are in the crib, we are God to them. They have no category, abstractly, for God. We are shaping what they believe God is like; and then, as they grow, through my words and through my actions. I\u2019m failing all the time; one reason I need a gentle and lowly Savior is my bad fathering. But what I want them to do is, through my words and through my actions, I want them to know that Jesus is holy; but He\u2019s not that framed picture on Dave\u2019s wall.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, what about as a husband? You know, as you think about this, I\u2019m immediately thinking, \u201cOkay, how do I treat Ann, based on this theology proper of who Jesus is?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>We could bring Stacey in here and ask her, but\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dane: You know, she was wondering on the plane: \u201cIs she going to get summoned in here?\u201d [Addressing Stacey] \u201cDon\u2019t worry sweetie; we won\u2019t do that.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Here\u2019s my prayer and longing, Dave\u2014I can speak at that level more easily perhaps\u2014\u201cOur marriage will flourish, I believe, not as either of us seeks to crowbar change into the other person for ourselves, [Laughter] but as we deal gently and tenderly with one another.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Dane, I\u2019ve tried the crowbar; it doesn\u2019t work.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Oh, it doesn\u2019t; does it?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: She\u2019s still trying, I think, actually.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: It comes very naturally to me, Ann. [Laughter] It seems so simple!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It does; doesn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cC\u2019mon, grow up!\u201d\u2014I\u2019ve heard that one before. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So if you don\u2019t do the crowbar\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Well, \u201cWhat if\u201d\u2014as dads and husbands\u2014\u201cWhat if we were making a pattern, by the grace of God in the power of the Holy Spirit, to constantly surprise our kids and our wives with non-combatting, non-locking horns ways of dealing with them?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The chessboard got sprayed all over the floor\u2014[Laughter]\u2014[Whispering] this happened yesterday\u2014and it\u2019s not picked up. \u201cDid you do it?\u201d \u201cNo.\u201d \u201cDid you do it?\u201d \u201cNo.\u201d \u201cDid you do it?\u201d \u201cNo.\u201d \u201cAlright! Everyone in here!\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>What if I surprised them with patient gentleness? This doesn\u2019t mean we don\u2019t discipline our kids\u2014actually, Proverbs teaches that\u2019s to hate them if we don\u2019t discipline them\u2014but I want them to be constantly melted and lifted into an experience of what the love of God is like, not be raided and pep-talked.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That was good\u2014those pep talks. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dane: You and me both!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I know; I know.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: It\u2019s still so natural.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, me too.<\/p>\n<p>Tell us how we get that inside of us. You know, we have a couple of minutes left, so how do we take that view\u2014\u201cThis is who He is,\u201d\u2014now, we\u2019re learning it; it\u2019s starting to sink in. How do we begin living it?<\/p>\n<p>Dane: I have absolutely nothing new for us, or for anyone listening in, guys. The answer is: you get up in the morning\u2014you set your alarm; you get up in the morning\u2014you get your coffee, favorite chair; you open up this book that we call the Bible; and you open up your heart; and then you do that the rest of your life. You inhale the Scripture; you exhale it\u2014that\u2019s what we call prayer\u2014so you\u2019re breathing and you\u2019re communing with God. You won\u2019t notice changes, day to day, week to week; but actually, God Himself is shaping you into the likeness of Christ: reading the Scripture and praying.<\/p>\n<p>Then here\u2019s one other piece of counsel: \u201cWhat if we all had one person in our lives, of the same gender, who could ask us anything\u2014and who we didn\u2019t filter\u2014but knew what was really going on behind all of our painted smiles?\u201d That\u2019s what the Bible calls walking in the light, 1 John 1. That kills these perverse, bizarre, lawful, harsh, berating, judgmental ways that we will all [have] because of the flesh, naturally, [working] otherwise.<\/p>\n<p>Scripture, prayer, a friend\u2014be part of a good local church that preaches the gospel\u2014there\u2019s nothing secret or clever here; it\u2019s just the basic disciplines of the Christian life.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So you\u2019ve got that guy?<\/p>\n<p>Dane: I do; yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What\u2019s that look like?<\/p>\n<p>Dane: It looks like phone calls and texts. We no longer live in the same town, but he knows my weak spots. Actually, we get together for a fire, two or three times a year, and just enjoy fellowship and brotherhood for about eight hours and open our hearts to one another. I don\u2019t do this with every man; actually, that would be unhealthy. I want to be honest, but in varying levels of depth with the men in my life. I don\u2019t want to go through my life, preening, and parading, and pretending my whole life long; that\u2019s an exhausting and miserable way to live.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019m just thinking our listener, if there\u2019s anything you take home, that\u2019s it. If you want to understand the gentle lowly heart of God, you\u2019ve got to be in His Word to see it.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Because every time I open it, it\u2019s almost like \u201cOh, I forgot.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Me too!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cThere it is again; oh, my goodness, I forgot!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I mean, to look at Jesus\u2014and to watch His interactions with people\/all different people: sinners\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And we\u2019re going to talk about that next.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014I know, and I can\u2019t wait\u2014but I mean, I agree: the longer I\u2019m in the Word\u2014and you think, \u201cOh, I\u2019m just reading the Word,\u201d\u2014no! It changes us. The more we\u2019re in prayer\u2014like the exhaling\u2014we\u2019re in prayer, and we\u2019re talking to God continually throughout the day; it changes us.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And as Dane said, you need a brother\/you need a sister that you can take off the covering and be real with. They will remind you who you are and who He is.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today, and we're Dave and Ann Wilson. We've been talking to<\/p>\n<p>a favorite guest of ours, Dane Ortlund. We've been talking about his book, Gentle and<\/p>\n<p>Lowly: The Heart of Christ for Sinners and Sufferers.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: There's nobody\/I don't think there's anybody quite like Dane in his content on the<\/p>\n<p>heart of Jesus. It's such a good reminder.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It is.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We grew up\u2014we talked about this\u2014we grew up thinking, \u201cHe's mad at us,\u201d \u201cHe's<\/p>\n<p>judging us,\u201d \u201cHe's disappointed.\u201d That's how I grew up. Even seeing the picture of<\/p>\n<p>Jesus, on my mom's wall by the fireplace, I always felt, \u201cHe's disappointed in me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And I felt like: \u201cI need to perform for Him to make Him love me more.\u201d And when<\/p>\n<p>you hear Dane talk about the gospel and grace Jesus offers, it's life-transformational; it<\/p>\n<p>changes us.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yeah, and this is one of those books you want to read every year. You can read<\/p>\n<p>it once; and you read it again a month later. And then, every year it's like pull it out<\/p>\n<p>and remind yourself: \u201cThis is the heart of God.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Let me tell you: you can get a copy of Dane's book, Gentle and Lowly, at<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLifeToday.com; you'll find a link there in the show notes. Or if you want, you can<\/p>\n<p>give us a call at 800-358-6329. That's 800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the<\/p>\n<p>word, TODAY.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And if you know anyone else who needs to hear a conversation just like this one,<\/p>\n<p>we would love it if you tell them about our program. You can share today's specific<\/p>\n<p>conversation from wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, just a simple<\/p>\n<p>way that you can help more people discover God's plan for families is by leaving a<\/p>\n<p>rating and a review for FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We'd love you to follow us on Instagram at FamilyLife Insta or on Facebook. Let<\/p>\n<p>me tell you: every day there's regular encouragement on marriage and parenting. I get<\/p>\n<p>it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, me too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I look at it; it\u2019s encouraging. And sometimes, we hear a program that we did\u2014<\/p>\n<p>and it's just great\u2014especially, this one with Dane Ortlund, which by the way, we're<\/p>\n<p>going to talk to him, again, tomorrow; so you don't want to miss that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you know what's going to happen when you listen to Dane tomorrow?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What's going to happen?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You're probably going to cry; I do. [You\u2019re] like, \u201cWhat?!\u201d The gospel is too good to<\/p>\n<p>be true; it's just such good news. So I hope you'll join us, again, tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife.com<\/p>\n"],"_edit_lock":["1743093200:47000"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_4f6711ec7adc8a8683a9efd48eaf524f375b7652":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" \/]"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_atts_4f6711ec7adc8a8683a9efd48eaf524f375b7652":["a:17:{s:2:\"to\";s:29:\"margaret.coyle@familylife.com\";s:7:\"subject\";s:63:\"[FamilyLife - A Cru Ministry] Is God Really \"Gentle and Lowly\"?\";s:12:\"show_subject\";s:2:\"no\";s:6:\"widget\";i:0;s:14:\"block_template\";N;s:19:\"block_template_part\";N;s:2:\"id\";i:313649;s:18:\"submit_button_text\";s:6:\"Submit\";s:14:\"customThankyou\";s:0:\"\";s:21:\"customThankyouHeading\";s:26:\"Your message has been sent\";s:21:\"customThankyouMessage\";s:30:\"Thank you for your 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is God in our families' lowest moments? Bestselling author Dane Ortlund paints an image of a God in the mess with us at rock-bottom--who's advocating and compassionate, gentle and lowly.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>Learn more about Dane Ortlund at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.daneortlund.com\/\">Daneortlund.com<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/gentle-and-lowly-the-heart-of-christ-for-sinners-and-sufferers\/\">Get his book, \"Gentle and Lowly\" in our FamilyLife shop<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Learn more about our Weekend to Remember events at <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/weekend-to-remember\/\">weekendtoremember.com<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr \/>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-03-24.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>Is God Really \u201cGentle and Lowly\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Dane Ortlund<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Gentle and Lowly (Day 1 of 3)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:March 24, 2025<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Okay, here you go. I\u2019m going to give you five seconds; you\u2019ve got to give me three words that describe the heart of Jesus. Go!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, perfect\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Five seconds; done.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014redeemer, grace.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Perfect, redeemer, grace.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I guess that\u2019s not the heart I was just describing to you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But that\u2019s your heart as you think about Jesus. You know, what\u2019s really interesting is\u2014a lot of us don\u2019t know this\u2014Jesus actually described His heart with two words that we\u2019re going to talk about today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the<\/p>\n<p>relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And I'm Ann Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019ve got Dane Ortlund in the studio with us today. He wrote a book about the two words that define the heart of Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>Dane, welcome to FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: It\u2019s great to be talking with you guys today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So you got to fly down. I know you\u2019re pastor of Naperville Presbyterian up in the Chicago suburbs. You flew down here with your wife, Stacey, to Orlando. I didn\u2019t know this \u2018til you got here and had lunch, that you just left five kids at home.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: We did. It has been\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How\u2019s that feel?<\/p>\n<p>Dane: It feels great. We\u2019re going to miss them terribly tonight; but for now, we\u2019re going to enjoy 24 hours of calm. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re going out to dinner tonight\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dane: We are; we are.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014all by yourselves. You can actually talk without interruption.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: That\u2019s right; that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s going to be fun.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And you know what? I shouldn\u2019t even bring this up, but you shared something at lunch that was precious. You\u2019ve got four boys and a little girl. Do you remember what she wrote to you? She gave you a card yesterday.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: She did. She wrote us a card; and she had about 30 little clipped \u201cI love you!!\u201d [stickers] tucked into a taped-on gaudy\/taped-on colored pocket. It was the back of one of their homework sheets. That was just her own little heart pouring out.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s precious.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s so sweet.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And what did you get from the boys?<\/p>\n<p>Dane: That\u2019s a very short answer, Dave. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cSee you, Dad.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dane: \u201cSee you later!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, because we had three boys, I knew what that answer was going to be.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: They didn\u2019t give us anything.<\/p>\n<p>Anyway, we are talking about a book that you wrote\u2014actually, more than the book\u2014the whole idea of the heart of Jesus. I got your book from our son, Austin, when it came out. It was one of these books\u2014and you know, as a pastor, and even as an author\u2014there\u2019s a lot of books written about a lot of things, and you pick them up and you read. This was one of these\u2014I don\u2019t think anybody\u2019s ever felt this about our books\u2014\u201cI can\u2019t put this down; this is a life-changing truth that I\u2019ve got to read.\u201d But when I picked up Gentle and Lowly, it\u2019s one of those things, where I ran down to the kitchen and said, \u201cAnn, you have to read this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So Dane, I pick up your book. I start underlining; and I thought, \u201cOkay, this is ridiculous\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: [Laughter]\u2014underlining everything.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014\u201cevery page, every sentence is underlined. [Laughter] I need to, at least, highlight.\u201d But it felt like all of it needed to be highlighted, because I need it. I think we all need it. As listeners\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dane: I sure do.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014you\u2019re going to love this; because we\u2019re really getting to the heart of who Jesus is, and we\u2019re getting to the heart of how He feels about us. I tell you\u2014we were praying before we even began\u2014and I was teary, because I need this.<\/p>\n<p>Dane, you even start the book\u2014and this caught me from the beginning\u2014you say, \u201cThis book is written for the discouraged, the frustrated, the weary, the disenchanted, the cynical, the empty, those running on fumes, those whose Christian lives feel like constantly running up a descending escalator.\u201d I read that, and I thought: \u201cYes,\u201d \u201cYes,\u201d \u201cYes.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dane: \u201cCheck, check, check\u201d; yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, and I think so many of us feel like that. We want this overwhelming love for Jesus; but I think certain personalities, especially, feel like we\u2019re continually failing. This book is a breath of fresh air and a great reminder of who God is\/of who Jesus is.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So talk about how you started understanding it. I already mentioned there\u2019s two words that sort of Jesus used, so tell us about the whole genesis of this concept.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Well, I feel like I'm a toddler in it, Dave. I'm still learning. This is like an ocean I'm ankle deep in wading out into. Christ Himself, in the one place where He tells us what His heart is, when He is setting the terms\u2014this is not one of the apostles talking about him; this is not one of the letters in the New Testament\u2014He says the most astonishing thing. Who would have guessed, that in the one place where He opens up His heart, He doesn\u2019t say [elevated voice], \u201cI\u2019m joyful and exalted in heart,\u201d or any hundred other true things.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: He says, \u201cI am way down low and extremely accessible: \u2018I\u2019m gentle and lowly in heart.\u2019\u201d That\u2019s the Savior we can enjoy being disciples to.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, it\u2019s interesting when I\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014and that\u2019s the name of the book. I don\u2019t think we said\/did we say the name of the book?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s the name of the book, Gentle and Lowly. [Laughter] I mean, it\u2019s interesting; when I read that in your first chapter, I\u2019m like, \u201cHow many times have I read Matthew 11\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014\u201cread these words and missed that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s something you shouldn\u2019t miss. I preached on that passage, and I missed it!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I don\u2019t even think we know what that means.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Now, that\u2019s the next question: Explain \u201cgentle\u201d and \u201clowly.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Well, when He said He\u2019s gentle in heart, what He\u2019s saying, guys, is He is the most tender, and non-manipulative, nonabrasive, approachable person in the universe. The high and holy Christ\u2014the resurrected Christ; the one, who in Revelation 1, the Apostle John sees and falls down as if dead; the one, who the impenitent in<\/p>\n<p>Revelation 6, want the mountains to fall on them so they don\u2019t have to face His wrath\u2014that Christ, most deeply, by His own testimony, is gentle.<\/p>\n<p>And He says He\u2019s lowly. This is almost more wonderful!\u2014you don\u2019t have to go through security to get to him; you don\u2019t have to take a ticket and get in line; He\u2019s not going to put you on hold; you don\u2019t have to raise your voice\u2014that divine and holy, eternally existing Son of God, is way down low next to me in my worst, not waiting for me to get my act together, and then He\u2019ll open the door to me.<\/p>\n<p>This is so profound and wonderful, guys; because we deeply resist this. We do not believe this; we hold it at arm\u2019s length. I very much resonate with what you said earlier, Ann. We stiff-arm this reflexively. The three of us and our listeners are taking a lifetime to unlearn the bad theology that Jesus is not gentle and lowly in heart.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and why do we resist it? You are so right. That isn\u2019t who I\u2019ve always believed Jesus to be, and I\u2019m not saying my beliefs are right\u2014they\u2019re actually inaccurate\u2014but we\u2019ve carried that our whole lives. In some ways, we even resist hearing this.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: We do; I do. I do\u2014I\u2019m going to roll out of bed tomorrow morning\u2014and I will not believe that. I mean, I\u2019ll believe it on paper; but the Christ that I believe I\u2019m approaching, when I roll out of bed in the morning, is not gentle and lowly in heart. He is looking at His watch, tapping His foot\u2014loves me and likes me\u2014but \u201cDane\/dufus, come on dude! You\u2019re a pastor! Why are you so weird, selfish, proud and sinful?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t know why we resist it\u2014Dave, to answer your question\u2014I don\u2019t know the answer except that we are sinners. I believe that what we do, without realizing it, is we project Christ\u2014we think the Christ who is there\u2014is a bigger, better, smiley-er version of us. We are not gentle and lowly in our deepest heart. The heart is your motivation headquarters\/what pours out of you. We\u2019re not that way, so we think that Jesus is just a better version of us. The Scripture is defying us at that point\/correcting us.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What prompted you to write this? Like this has to be\u2014I can tell this is from a fire within you\u2014so what made you think, \u201cThis is what we need\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Dane: It\u2019s not the Jesus that I have been walking with most of my life\u2014I was raised in a great family; and I\u2019ve been in great churches; I\u2019ve been surrounded by great books\/godly people\u2014but I was confronted with the writings of an old dead theologian named Thomas Goodwin, who lived 400 years ago in England\u2014he put my face in the Scriptures: Old Testament and New; Matthew 11:29 is the tip of the iceberg, but the whole\/it\u2019s just consistent with the whole testimony of Scripture.<\/p>\n<p>He [Goodwin] said, \u201cHey Dane, I want you to see what Christ\u2019s heart is.\u201d He wrote a book called The Heart of Christ in Heaven Towards Sinners on Earth in which he is trying to say: \u201cYou think\u2014you disciples of Christ\u2014you think, in this modern time, that because Jesus is way up high now, He\u2019s a little more distant, cool, calculating, and removed.\u201d He just says, \u201cDon\u2019t you dare go through life believing that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It was Goodwin, along with a few others, who said: \u201cYou can actually believe the whole Bible and be kind of\u201d\u2014I\u2019m pretty conservative in my theology, guys\u2014\u201cand you can talk about the effusive flood-like love of God that soaks\/irrigates us at our worst more strongly than any other place in my life,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s too good to be true, almost.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And it\u2019s so compelling\u2014like that love\/that description of what you just painted of our Savior\u2014that makes us run to Him.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Amen.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Hey, I just wanted to take a quick minute to jump in and say, \u201cWhatever you're<\/p>\n<p>going through today\u2014listen to this\u2014you aren't alone.\u201d I don't know if you know this, but<\/p>\n<p>Dave and I have a team at FamilyLife Today ready to pray for you. It's this incredible<\/p>\n<p>honor and privilege just to lift your name up to God. So if you need prayer, please,<\/p>\n<p>please reach out to us. You can head on over to FamilyLife.com\/PrayForMe; again,<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife.com\/PrayForMe. Tell us: \u201cHow can we pray for you?\u201d And we're not kidding,<\/p>\n<p>Dave and I have a prayer team specifically dedicated to praying for our listeners,<\/p>\n<p>praying for you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You are not alone. We would love to lift you up by name. So again, go to<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife.com\/PrayForMe; and we will pray for you today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I remember\u2014I grew up in a single-parent home with my mom, and\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, you\u2019re going to talk about your picture!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; I haven\u2019t mentioned this in years. Dane, when you were talking, I was remembering this picture my mom used to have over our fireplace. This is the \u201850s\/\u201960s Jesus\/image of praying hands, Jesus\u2019. Some of our listeners will remember this; it was pretty popular, but it\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dane: I can picture it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014sort of an oil painting. It\u2019s got the hands, and He\u2019s got sort of a halo effect on it\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014very solemn<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014long hair. I remember\u2014you know, I didn\u2019t go to church much\u2014but when I did, I never saw a Jesus like you were talking about, Dane. I always saw a judging, holy, wrathful God\u2014which He\u2019s holy\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dane: \u2014which He is,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014and there is a wrath.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: \u2014100 percent.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I would walk\u2014I remember as a teenager\u2014and I\u2019m not making very good life choices as a teenager, and I know it; I know I\u2019m not doing what my mom wants\u2014I\u2019m sort of copying the sins of my father, who is an alcoholic and a womanizer. Here I am, 17 years old. I would walk through the living room by myself, especially as it was like twilight\u2014six\/seven o\u2019clock at night\u2014I\u2019d look over, and I would swear the eyes were just following me through the living room. I remember feeling fear.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019d look up; it\u2019s like\u2014and here\u2019s what I thought, \u201cHe\u2019s watching me,\u201d and \u201cHe\u2019s really disappointed,\u201d\u2014just like you said\u2014like, \u201cYou know better, dude; what are you doing?\u201d That was my view of Jesus and God; it was like: \u201cThat\u2019s who He is.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You also described Him as the game, Whac-A-Mole\u00ae.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; you remember Whac-A-Mole?<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Oh, sure; oh, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s what I just thought: \u201cGod just sits up there; and He waits for you to enjoy life, and say, \u2018Stop it.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So this [new] image\u2014and it\u2019s so beautiful\u2014because, Dane, you said Jesus uses these words about His own heart; it isn\u2019t somebody else talking about Himself. He uses these words, I\u2019m guessing, because He\u2019s like, \u201cThis is what you need to know about Me. Of all the things I could tell you, you need to understand this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dane: \u2014\u201cif nothing else; everything is footnotes to that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I believe that Jesus Christ is holy; the wrath of the Lamb will be experienced one day by all the impenitent. He is all-seeing; He is the ruler of the cosmos and a hundred other truths in that direction. It\u2019s that Christ who\u2014oh, we are hardwired to be Whac-A-Mole theologians for sure, including me, Dave\u2014I mean, we have Matthew 11 there, where He says that. But then, on every page of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, we don\u2019t see that kind of Jesus on your living room wall, as you were growing up, Dave.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes; right.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: It\u2019s someone who\u2014actually, He apparently is drawn like a magnet to the distressed\u2014the kind of people you quoted earlier\u2014and the frustrated, the disenchanted; i.e., all of us! [Laughter] This is all of us, all the time, in some degree. That\u2019s not the periphery of believers; that\u2019s what we\u2019re all navigating all the time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes; well, you even say, \u201cWhen you come to Christ for mercy, and love, and help, you are cooperating with His deepest heart\u2019s desire; and this brings Him joy. It doesn\u2019t bother Him, or drain or irritate Him; He wants us to come to Him. He lives for this: the joy of seeing His people forgiven.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What a different picture!<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Oh, it\u2019s so different; isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: I mean, Goodwin, and the Puritans, and others\u2014they would talk like this\u2014\u201cIt is Jesus Christ\u2019s own deepest comfort when you draw from the riches of His atoning blood.\u201d In other words: \u201cWhen I sin, I\u2019m feeling guilty; I\u2019m feeling ashamed; and I\u2019m cowering. I\u2019m lurking and withdrawing.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We\u2019re hiding.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: \u2014hiding: \u201cI\u2019ll give it a week; and then, you know, if I have a good week, then I\u2019ll approach Him.\u201d But actually, that is what saddens Christ\u2019s heart. What He wants\/the whole reason He came is so that we can come to Him when we are at our deepest point of need, not once we\u2019re all cleaned up.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Let me ask you\u2014I mean, this gets into a practical question\u2014\u201cHow has this changed your parenting? How do you relay this onto your kids?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Oh man, I want it to change my parenting more than it is. Man, we have five little ones. I wrote this book to me, because I\u2019m Type A\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Me too.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: \u2014judgmental, opinionated, harsh, inpatient: \u201cGet your act together! \u201d\u2014and I\u2019m unlearning this myself. What I long to do is to gently give my kids a picture of Jesus, and of the heavenly Father, such that, when they leave the home at age 18, they can\u2019t ever believe that Jesus is going to hold them at arm\u2019s length when they are in sin. I want them to never be able to believe that finally.<\/p>\n<p>When they\u2019re really young, I want to give them a picture of the Father\u2019s heart as their dad. When the kids are in the crib, we are God to them. They have no category, abstractly, for God. We are shaping what they believe God is like; and then, as they grow, through my words and through my actions. I\u2019m failing all the time; one reason I need a gentle and lowly Savior is my bad fathering. But what I want them to do is, through my words and through my actions, I want them to know that Jesus is holy; but He\u2019s not that framed picture on Dave\u2019s wall.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, what about as a husband? You know, as you think about this, I\u2019m immediately thinking, \u201cOkay, how do I treat Ann, based on this theology proper of who Jesus is?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>We could bring Stacey in here and ask her, but\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dane: You know, she was wondering on the plane: \u201cIs she going to get summoned in here?\u201d [Addressing Stacey] \u201cDon\u2019t worry sweetie; we won\u2019t do that.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Here\u2019s my prayer and longing, Dave\u2014I can speak at that level more easily perhaps\u2014\u201cOur marriage will flourish, I believe, not as either of us seeks to crowbar change into the other person for ourselves, [Laughter] but as we deal gently and tenderly with one another.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Dane, I\u2019ve tried the crowbar; it doesn\u2019t work.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Oh, it doesn\u2019t; does it?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: She\u2019s still trying, I think, actually.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: It comes very naturally to me, Ann. [Laughter] It seems so simple!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It does; doesn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cC\u2019mon, grow up!\u201d\u2014I\u2019ve heard that one before. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So if you don\u2019t do the crowbar\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Well, \u201cWhat if\u201d\u2014as dads and husbands\u2014\u201cWhat if we were making a pattern, by the grace of God in the power of the Holy Spirit, to constantly surprise our kids and our wives with non-combatting, non-locking horns ways of dealing with them?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The chessboard got sprayed all over the floor\u2014[Laughter]\u2014[Whispering] this happened yesterday\u2014and it\u2019s not picked up. \u201cDid you do it?\u201d \u201cNo.\u201d \u201cDid you do it?\u201d \u201cNo.\u201d \u201cDid you do it?\u201d \u201cNo.\u201d \u201cAlright! Everyone in here!\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>What if I surprised them with patient gentleness? This doesn\u2019t mean we don\u2019t discipline our kids\u2014actually, Proverbs teaches that\u2019s to hate them if we don\u2019t discipline them\u2014but I want them to be constantly melted and lifted into an experience of what the love of God is like, not be raided and pep-talked.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That was good\u2014those pep talks. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dane: You and me both!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I know; I know.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: It\u2019s still so natural.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, me too.<\/p>\n<p>Tell us how we get that inside of us. You know, we have a couple of minutes left, so how do we take that view\u2014\u201cThis is who He is,\u201d\u2014now, we\u2019re learning it; it\u2019s starting to sink in. How do we begin living it?<\/p>\n<p>Dane: I have absolutely nothing new for us, or for anyone listening in, guys. The answer is: you get up in the morning\u2014you set your alarm; you get up in the morning\u2014you get your coffee, favorite chair; you open up this book that we call the Bible; and you open up your heart; and then you do that the rest of your life. You inhale the Scripture; you exhale it\u2014that\u2019s what we call prayer\u2014so you\u2019re breathing and you\u2019re communing with God. You won\u2019t notice changes, day to day, week to week; but actually, God Himself is shaping you into the likeness of Christ: reading the Scripture and praying.<\/p>\n<p>Then here\u2019s one other piece of counsel: \u201cWhat if we all had one person in our lives, of the same gender, who could ask us anything\u2014and who we didn\u2019t filter\u2014but knew what was really going on behind all of our painted smiles?\u201d That\u2019s what the Bible calls walking in the light, 1 John 1. That kills these perverse, bizarre, lawful, harsh, berating, judgmental ways that we will all [have] because of the flesh, naturally, [working] otherwise.<\/p>\n<p>Scripture, prayer, a friend\u2014be part of a good local church that preaches the gospel\u2014there\u2019s nothing secret or clever here; it\u2019s just the basic disciplines of the Christian life.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So you\u2019ve got that guy?<\/p>\n<p>Dane: I do; yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What\u2019s that look like?<\/p>\n<p>Dane: It looks like phone calls and texts. We no longer live in the same town, but he knows my weak spots. Actually, we get together for a fire, two or three times a year, and just enjoy fellowship and brotherhood for about eight hours and open our hearts to one another. I don\u2019t do this with every man; actually, that would be unhealthy. I want to be honest, but in varying levels of depth with the men in my life. I don\u2019t want to go through my life, preening, and parading, and pretending my whole life long; that\u2019s an exhausting and miserable way to live.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019m just thinking our listener, if there\u2019s anything you take home, that\u2019s it. If you want to understand the gentle lowly heart of God, you\u2019ve got to be in His Word to see it.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Because every time I open it, it\u2019s almost like \u201cOh, I forgot.<\/p>\n<p>Dane: Me too!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cThere it is again; oh, my goodness, I forgot!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I mean, to look at Jesus\u2014and to watch His interactions with people\/all different people: sinners\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And we\u2019re going to talk about that next.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014I know, and I can\u2019t wait\u2014but I mean, I agree: the longer I\u2019m in the Word\u2014and you think, \u201cOh, I\u2019m just reading the Word,\u201d\u2014no! It changes us. The more we\u2019re in prayer\u2014like the exhaling\u2014we\u2019re in prayer, and we\u2019re talking to God continually throughout the day; it changes us.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And as Dane said, you need a brother\/you need a sister that you can take off the covering and be real with. They will remind you who you are and who He is.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today, and we're Dave and Ann Wilson. We've been talking to<\/p>\n<p>a favorite guest of ours, Dane Ortlund. We've been talking about his book, Gentle and<\/p>\n<p>Lowly: The Heart of Christ for Sinners and Sufferers.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: There's nobody\/I don't think there's anybody quite like Dane in his content on the<\/p>\n<p>heart of Jesus. It's such a good reminder.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It is.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We grew up\u2014we talked about this\u2014we grew up thinking, \u201cHe's mad at us,\u201d \u201cHe's<\/p>\n<p>judging us,\u201d \u201cHe's disappointed.\u201d That's how I grew up. Even seeing the picture of<\/p>\n<p>Jesus, on my mom's wall by the fireplace, I always felt, \u201cHe's disappointed in me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And I felt like: \u201cI need to perform for Him to make Him love me more.\u201d And when<\/p>\n<p>you hear Dane talk about the gospel and grace Jesus offers, it's life-transformational; it<\/p>\n<p>changes us.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yeah, and this is one of those books you want to read every year. You can read<\/p>\n<p>it once; and you read it again a month later. And then, every year it's like pull it out<\/p>\n<p>and remind yourself: \u201cThis is the heart of God.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Let me tell you: you can get a copy of Dane's book, Gentle and Lowly, at<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLifeToday.com; you'll find a link there in the show notes. Or if you want, you can<\/p>\n<p>give us a call at 800-358-6329. That's 800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the<\/p>\n<p>word, TODAY.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And if you know anyone else who needs to hear a conversation just like this one,<\/p>\n<p>we would love it if you tell them about our program. You can share today's specific<\/p>\n<p>conversation from wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, just a simple<\/p>\n<p>way that you can help more people discover God's plan for families is by leaving a<\/p>\n<p>rating and a review for FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We'd love you to follow us on Instagram at FamilyLife Insta or on Facebook. Let<\/p>\n<p>me tell you: every day there's regular encouragement on marriage and parenting. I get<\/p>\n<p>it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, me too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I look at it; it\u2019s encouraging. And sometimes, we hear a program that we did\u2014<\/p>\n<p>and it's just great\u2014especially, this one with Dane Ortlund, which by the way, we're<\/p>\n<p>going to talk to him, again, tomorrow; so you don't want to miss that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you know what's going to happen when you listen to Dane tomorrow?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What's going to happen?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You're probably going to cry; I do. [You\u2019re] like, \u201cWhat?!\u201d The gospel is too good to<\/p>\n<p>be true; it's just such good news. So I hope you'll join us, again, tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife.com<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/313649","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=313649"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/312569"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=313649"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=313649"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=313649"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=313649"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=313649"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=313649"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}