{"id":312065,"date":"2025-01-29T04:08:29","date_gmt":"2025-01-29T09:08:29","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/beyond-our-control-lauren-and-michael-mcafee\/"},"modified":"2025-01-29T13:47:21","modified_gmt":"2025-01-29T18:47:21","slug":"beyond-our-control-lauren-and-michael-mcafee","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/beyond-our-control-lauren-and-michael-mcafee\/","title":{"rendered":"Beyond Our Control: Lauren and Michael McAfee"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Lauren and Michael McAfee share their transformative journey of adoption, infertility, and learning to trust God&#8217;s sovereignty during painful life challenges.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Lauren and Michael McAfee share their transformative journey of adoption, infertility, and learning to trust God&#8217;s sovereignty during painful life challenges.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":312067,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/f782b98a-5a54-4857-8dae-b261010c4556\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:32:31","filesize":"29.82M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2025-01-29 04:08:29","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2818,2822],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[10932],"cwp_profile":[10940],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-312065","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-adoption-and-orphans","category-growing-in-your-faith","podcast_series-michael-lauren-mcaffee-beyond-our-control","cwp_profile-lauren-and-michael-mcafee","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2025\/01\/image_a08084.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/312065\/beyond-our-control-lauren-and-michael-mcafee","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/312065\/beyond-our-control-lauren-and-michael-mcafee","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"HMXWVKzsU0\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/beyond-our-control-lauren-and-michael-mcafee\/\">Beyond Our Control: Lauren and Michael McAfee<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/beyond-our-control-lauren-and-michael-mcafee\/embed\/#?secret=HMXWVKzsU0\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Beyond Our Control: Lauren and Michael McAfee&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"HMXWVKzsU0\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["f782b98a-5a54-4857-8dae-b261010c4556"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/f782b98a-5a54-4857-8dae-b261010c4556\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:32:31"],"filesize":["29.82M"],"_thumbnail_id":["312067"],"show_notes":["<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.laurenamcafee.com\/\">Learn more about Lauren McAffee on her website<\/a> .<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/sale\/group-studies-sale\/\">Save 25% on all small group materials at the FamilyLife online shop<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-01-29.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>Beyond Our Control<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Michael and Lauren McAffee<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Beyond Our Control (Day 1 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:January 29, 2025<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I think one of the best things we've ever done for our marriage is go through small group material on marriage with other couples.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Oh, yeah; no question: one of the best things. And we still do it! And right now, we have a 25 percent off discount for you to use some of our great FamilyLife resources, like the new Art of Marriage\u00ae; you could get that\u2014or you could even get our Vertical Marriage\u00ae\u2014and just take some couples through it. It, literally, will change their life. But you ready for this?\u2014it's going to change your life as well. So here's how you get it: just go to FamilyLife.com. You can pick up any resource that you want there and let it bless you and bless others.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Twenty-five percent off; don't miss that!<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:It's not about us; it's not about us. It's knowing that God has, in His sovereignty, the big picture of\u2014not only our lives, but of eternity\u2014and what He is doing in His sovereignty is bigger and better than I, in my finite earthly perspective, can understand.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:If there's a word I love, it\u2019s \u201ccontrol.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I don't think you\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I like being in control.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:No! I feel like you're so good at not being in control.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:That\u2019s because I'm such an amazing guy.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You are! I'm the one who\u2019s the control person.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You do like control.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I tried to control you for probably 15 years, but it didn't work.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Especially, when I drive the car.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:It didn\u2019t work!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah, did it work?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:No!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:So you tried harder!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:No, so I had let Jesus\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014do the worst.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014do more.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You're listening to Lauren and Michael McAffee over there, laughing; because it's the title of their book, Beyond Our Control.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:That's right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Let me read this short little subtitle: Let Go of Unmet Expectations,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Everyone's like, \u201cOh, yeah; how do I do that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Okay, but there's more: Overcome Anxiety,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yes. I need that!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And there's more: and Discover Intimacy with God.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Everybody needs all of those things!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:So where do we start, guys? I mean, obviously, this is something you've had to live; so give our listeners a real quick synopsis. You've been married how many years?<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Fifteen; over fifteen years.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:Married bliss, the whole time.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And you started dating when you were seven years old\u2014something like that. No, you knew each other.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren: We knew each other at seven; started dating at seventeen; and then, yeah, got married at twenty-one. So that was 15 years ago.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Hey, I got to ask you this: \u201cDid you ever date anybody else?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Michael:No.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:No?!<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:I mean, we were so young. I don't know\u2014crushes or whatever\u2014I don\u2019t remember all of that.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:\u201cIf you can't drive, is it dating?\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cNo.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Okay; let me ask you: \u201cOn your wedding day, what was the picture?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:We're going to your wedding day.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cWhat was the picture of your life together?\u2014like, \u201cOh, I thought we would do this\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Your expectations.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cI thought: \u2018We would do this\u2026\u2019 What did your family look like?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Oh, that\u2019s funny. Like on our wedding day, what would we do in our future?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:As two 21-year-olds; what did your future look like?<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yeah, nothing like what our life became! So whenever we got married, Michael\u2014I always knew Michael wanted to be a pastor\u2014and I was really drawn to that and really was looking forward to just being a pastor\u2019s wife.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Wait, wait; you wanted to be a pastor's wife? My wife was like, \u201cI will not\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We went to seminary; I'm like:\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014\u201cDo not do that. Do not.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cI'll going to seminary as long as you don't become a pastor.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:That is so funny.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I was like, \u201cGod, are You sure that's what You're calling me to do? Because I've got a woman who\u2019s not coming with me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You didn't want to be one either, at first.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I didn't either.<\/p>\n<p>So you wanted to be\u2014that\u2019s interesting.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yeah; as a high schooler, I really felt like ministry was going to be my future; and I didn't know what that looked like. But certainly, once Michael and I started dating; and it got serious, I thought, \u201cOkay, I guess being a pastor's wife is what a part of that calling on my heart is going to be.\u201d I was really excited about that; and interestingly, really ended up putting a lot of my identity in being a pastor's wife. I just thought, \u201cWe are just going to be at churches the rest of our lives. I'll be a pastor's wife: I'll volunteer\u2014mentor and discipleship in the church\u2014and lead bible studies.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We know that Michael was alongside that because, when he dressed up\u2014was it Career Day?<\/p>\n<p>Michael:First-grade Career Day; that's right. Had the clip-on tie, the Bible; I was going to preach. You better believe it; yeah. I was nerdy.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I don't know a single person in the universe that has done that, even on Halloween, they don't dress up as a pastor unless they're making a big joke.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:Oh, man; yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:What\u2019s so interesting though\u2014but you're not now.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:I know; right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You are.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:Yes, yes; full-time get to have a different type of ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:It is different.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I was going to say: \u201cYou are a pastor in a different way.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Michael:For sure. Well, I think it connects because the envisioned future that we had on our wedding day was that: \u201cOkay, I'm going to work in a church.\u201d I'm still working, part-time, as a pastor in the same church we met at; and preach once a month.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Oh, you are right now?<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:He is a teaching pastor.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Okay, so he is.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Part-time, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:It\u2019s still home for us. We both have family there at that church; we have that. We've got our careers, our education; it was kind of like everything we wanted. We worked hard; we got to buy a house. I mean, all of the things that kind of come with a young couple's dreams, it was kind of like this: \u201cOkay, you roll up your sleeves, and work hard, have a positive attitude, and things work out.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That was the first thing that didn\u2019t [go] that way was kids\u2014the way that we envisioned children coming into our life and building our family\u2014did not go the way we expected.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:What did you expect?<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yeah, so interestingly, I think we expected for kids to come easily, both through adoption and biologically; and that we have had the opposite of that experience in all the ways. So interestingly, we did start pursuing growing our family through adoption first. We were not necessarily intentionally thinking about, biologically, having children; but we knew we wanted to adopt, and so we started that process<\/p>\n<p>Dave:How did you know you wanted to adopt? That's unique, especially before you have bio kids.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:I am a third-generation of adoptive parents in my family. My parents are adoptive parents, and my grandparents are adoptive parents. I had seen adoption in my family for generations and had really had a heart for it since I was in my late teens and knew that was something that I really wanted to be prayerful about in my future. Michael kind of always knew that; I mean, he had seen my family, obviously.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:It was part of the deal.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Walked through that and knew that he was possibly stepping into that whenever we got married. And then, yeah, he quickly came around.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:Really, I did; it's such a beautiful picture of the gospel once I just realized: \u201cOf course I've been adopted into the family of God. Why would I not express that if the Lord calls us and gives us the opportunity?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I mean, the day that our middle son adopted\u2014well, at different times\u2014one brother; then, the younger brother.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014the sons\u2014you mean.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:We wept.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:\u2014the sons?<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah, the sons; because of that very fact: \u201cThese little boys don't know this\u2014but their future with their bio parents: drugs, streets, homeless\u2014they don't have any idea what their life would've been; and now what it's going to be.\u201d It hit me, just sitting in that courtroom: \u201cThat's us!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014the gospel.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u201cThat is the beauty of Jesus and the gospel.\u201d So you started that process in\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Michael:I was, at the time, there was a partnership that our church had with an orphanage in Uganda. So we immediately were starting to think international, said, \u201cWhat about Uganda? We've got a partnership there.\u201d So we went through Lifeline Children's Services and began the process, thinking it would take about three years. As we neared that three-year mark, they told us, \u201cHey, Uganda is actually about to shut down.\u201d And so after three years of waiting,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:\u2014they closed their international program that the country of Uganda did.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:So you have to start over?<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:So we had to start over, after being three years into the process with the country. At that point\u2014three years of waiting and hoping, and you're back to square one\u2014was really hard. So we looked at other international programs and started pursuing an adoption\/trying to pursue an adoption with India; because our agency was trying to open a new program. It ended up, it wasn't unfolding the way they were hoping to, within the timeline; so they encouraged us to consider elsewhere.<\/p>\n<p>We were almost 30 at the time\u2014I was about 6 months away from turning 30, and Michael was about to turn 30\u2014and that mattered because the program we were wanting to begin pursuing adoption in was China. At the time, both parents had to be 30 to pursue adoption from that country. We had a period there\u2014we were just kind of waiting, doing some of the paperwork to kind of, at least, have it ready to go whenever I turned 30\u2014once I turned 30, we began the China adoption process. We were in that for about 18 months before we were finally matched with our daughter and got to travel to China and bring her home.<\/p>\n<p>In all, it was over six and a half years from when we started the adoption process to when we brought home our daughter, Zion. It was a very long process that, again, was completely beyond our control. We were doing all the right steps: we were pursuing; we were getting all the paperwork done timely; we were doing the home studies; we were preparing as much as we could.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And in the meantime, were you thinking, \u201cWe'll have our own biological child\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yes; so when things weren't happening with adoption,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Michael:When Uganda closed, I think was when\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yeah; we thought, \u201cOkay, well let's pursue seeing about having children biologically and continue pursuing adoption as well.\u201d We knew we wanted to have multiple children. I'm one of six kids, and so I love the idea of a big family. We always knew we wanted to have biological and adopted.<\/p>\n<p>We realized that was not going to happen for us either. Years into walking\u2014infertility and pursuing adoption that wasn't working\u2014it was very painful; it felt very isolating, too. We were pursuing every avenue, both adoption and trying to have children biologically, and nothing was working out. All of our close friends who had gotten married were seeming to get pregnant very easily, and not even trying to, and had multiple babies. We knew that we had been trying to grow our family even before some of our friends had tried starting. So it was really difficult; it was a really difficult season.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:What's that difficulty look like? Did it affect your marriage?\u2014affect your walk with God?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You probably had people asking you guys: \u201cWhen are you going to have kids?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yes; yes, we did.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:A lot of well-meaning passing comments in the church hall.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:We decided to be fairly open about our infertility journey, and so we both were writing about it. We were communicators, so we couldn't help but write about it; or he's a preacher, so he'd use illustrations in sermons. And so then, it was also we were dealing with the comments of people coming and trying to give us advice: \u201cWell, have you tried this?\u201d I'm like, \u201cI promise you we have tried all the things that doctors have recommended.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I would say it was a season that was disorienting for us; because as Michael alluded to, early on, when we started out our lives, things were happening the way we expected. We finished school; we got married; we had jobs; we were getting to do ministry together. We were healthy; we were young.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You had a house.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:We had a house. We had all these things that just kind of fell into place,<\/p>\n<p>which is such a blessing; and we're so grateful. And then, this felt like such<\/p>\n<p>a big thing in life that you dream of, and long for, and hope for that was not<\/p>\n<p>going our way at all.<\/p>\n<p>It really, for me, was a season that I had to grapple with: \u201cWhat do I really think about God and His sovereignty?\u201d and \u201cDo I just trust Him because things have gone my way?\u201d or \u201cDo I trust Him even when things are not going my way, and are actually incredibly painful in my life, the circumstances in my life?\u201d\u2014and having to wrestle to the ground my faith; and say, \u201cNo, I trust God regardless of what is happening in my life, even if things are broken and painful; because I know that God is bigger than what He can provide for me. It's not about what He can or doesn't provide; it's about Him and His character.\u201d I know Him to be good, but I had to remind myself of that on the days that I did not feel like God was good. I had to remind myself: \u201cI know that He is, and keep turning to Him, even when I don't feel like it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Michael, what did it look like for you? Was it different?<\/p>\n<p>Michael:It was really similar journeys; we processed a lot of it together. But both wishing that\u2014wanting to do all the things\u2014because that's your first question; it's like: \u201cWhat do I do? Okay, we're having problems. Adoption is not moving as close. What can we do to fix it?\u201d \u201cFertility\/getting pregnant is not happening. What do we do to fix? What's the fix?\u201d And realizing that, in different levels and different scenarios, that ultimately there are things you do to be faithful to it; but ultimately, it's the Lord who is going to bring it about His sovereign plan.<\/p>\n<p>It was both, like she said\u2014disorienting was a good word\u2014it was hard, really painful, to walk through watching our other friends have baby showers and all those things, and wanting to go to the hospital and celebrate them. At the same time, being grieved for yourself; and then, feeling selfish and bad\u2014and having this, even though we've never had a miscarriage or lost a baby\u2014we have close friends and family who have. But even then, there's an aspect of having a pain that you can point to something, where it's like you can point to a lost baby; and people understand that grief. But a grief of something that hasn't happened, that doesn't exist, is like misplaced\u2014you don't have anything to pin it to\u2014you don't have a moment that you can say, \u201cThis was the day that we lost our child.\u201d It's just a lost dream that has never come to fruition.<\/p>\n<p>It was hard to even articulate the pain and have a way to memorialize the grief that you're going through, because of how it looks; it looks different. At the same time, recognizing\u2014like Lauren alluded to\u2014when I really had a chance to step back and realize how everything else had happened the way that we had dreamt\u2014how I had been so quick to assign that worth or gain to myself and my own hard work rather than to God, and sort of robbed the Lord of the praise that was due to Him for the good favor that He had given us in life. Simultaneously, feeling convicted about that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Lauren, take us back to your prayer life when all that was going on. What did those prayers sound like to God? Because you said you were wrestled down\u2014basically, wrestled to the floor\u2014\"I can't do anything.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:It really was a season of grief, which Michael said it wasn't necessarily easy for people to understand in a tangible way; we were grieving this idea of what our life would look like and how many children we would have by this age. And you're getting older, and you don't have any children\u2014and all of these things\u2014that kind of just, on a day to day, you realize you don't have\u2014that you dreamt of\u2014is a loss.<\/p>\n<p>For me, it was\u2014part of my grieving was having to\u2014I am a big journal-er; I journal every day after my Bible reading\u2014I spend time in prayer and write some of those prayer reflections in a journal. And so some of my prayers were just, \u201cLord, help me to trust You. [Emotion in voice] I don't trust that this is for my good, that I don't have what I desperately want. Why is this not our reality? Help me to trust You.\u201d Just going to Him in my sadness, and even anger\u2014my anger and frustration\u2014that He would not give us this good thing. And looking at our lives, in my pride, thinking, \u201cWe're doing all the things: we're in seminary; we we're serving the church.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:\u201cWe deserve this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:\u201cWe're doing things in ministry.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cWe're obedient.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:\u201cWhat are we doing?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But it's not about us; it's not about us. It's knowing that God has, in His sovereignty, the big picture of\u2014not only our lives, but of eternity\u2014and what He is doing, both in our lives through this and in the world, and however He wants to orchestrate these things in our lives, in His sovereignty, is bigger and better than I, in my finite earthly perspective, can understand. \u201cSo help me to trust You, Lord. I don't trust You. Help me to trust You. I don't see the full picture; You do.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It was almost like forcing myself to continue to point my heart towards the Lord, and to look at His Word, and see examples in Scripture where things looked like they were: \u201cHow could any good come from a bad situation?\u201d Of course, the example we often go to is Joseph; it's like: \u201cLook at his life; he had all of these hard things happen. How could any of this have been good?\u201d When you're in that moment\u2014and you're being sold into slavery; you're in prison\u2014it's like: \u201cHow could any of this be good?\u201d And then, God, in His sovereignty, had the bigger picture. He knew what He was doing, and not because of just about Joseph, but for what He was going to be doing for the whole of His story to point to His glory in the way that He orchestrates every little thing.<\/p>\n<p>In our own lives, we can look to the Scripture and see and find so many helpful examples to remind us God is orchestrating every detail. Yes, even the painful ones; but it is for His glory and our good that He will use those things, as long as we continue to turn our hearts and turn our eyes towards Him, even when it was the last thing we wanted to do.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Even then, your prayer in your journal sounds just like a Psalm right out of the Bible: \u201cWhere are You, O God?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yeah; we found a lot of comfort in the Psalms; I did for sure. It certainly made me feel seen, like: \u201cOkay, others have felt this,\u201d and \u201cI feel seen and the Lord understands.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Was this a little bit like\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014up and down.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014there are moments when I believe everything you just said about God and His sovereign control; and then, there's moments, where I see a baby, or I see whatever, and something triggers: \u201cYeah, but here I am again. Really?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Michael:Oh, for sure.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah, I think we all go through that; but man, it had to be hard.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yeah, yeah. Even now\u2014I mean, certainly, our story didn't end with just pursuing adoption\u2014so we did adopt our daughter, Zion, from China. We brought her home; and then,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Why did you name her Zion?<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yeah, that's a great question. Her Chinese name was Zi\u2014we pronounce that \u201cZi\u201d\u2014but it sounds very different if you're pronouncing it correctly in China. So Zi was her Chinese name, and we wanted to keep that as a part of her name in some way. Zion became an option that we were considering.<\/p>\n<p>Actually, Michael and I were guiding a trip in Israel after we had gotten matched. We had to wait a couple months before we could travel to China; in that time, we were guiding a trip of college students to Israel. We went to the holocaust museum, Yad Vashem, in Israel. I had been before, and so I kind of knew what I was stepping into; but was just moved again at how the Jewish people went through so much, and so much pain and suffering. And they've not only survived so much pain and suffering, but they have thrived. Jewish people, all over the world, have thrived.<\/p>\n<p>Later that day, we went to Mount Zion. At the time, we knew we were considering the name, Zion. We were walking around Zion the same day that I had kind of seen the holocaust museum and thought about God's people. I thought, \u201cI would love for our daughter to, not just survive\u2014but even though she's been through so much: she's had to lose birth family; move to a different country\u2014I want her, not just to be surviving, but to thrive. I believe that for her life; and so we chose the name, Zion. And then, a month and a half after we brought her home from China, she was actually diagnosed with cancer. Surprised that that happened; no one was expecting her to be diagnosed with cancer.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:How old was she at her diagnosis?<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:She was 20 months, so just over a year and a half. Here we are\u2014first-time parents\u2014we had waited almost seven years to finally have a child. And we finally, for a month and a half, were parents; and then, a life-threatening cancer diagnosis. That felt very unfair! [Emotion in voice] For Michael and I, we were like, \u201cLord, we have, for years, prayed and longed to become parents; and now, we finally are; and that is threatened. What is happening?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cWhat are You doing?!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:\u201cWhat are You doing?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I remember just being awake at the hospital and not able to sleep after her surgery. And then, she was doing chemotherapy. And just, I would say those were the hardest times of my faith in wrestling through kind of all of: \u201cWhat do I truly believe about God's character?\u201d I honestly could, in those moments, look back to the years of infertility and not having adoption work out. The season right before that had been what I thought was the hardest season I had been walking through\u2014certainly, laid the groundwork for me to see the lessons in that season of infertility, and longing for children, and adoption not working\u2014as I wrestled with God and sought to deeper understand His Word so that I might better trust in His character. That laid the foundation for me, whenever we dealt with that cancer diagnosis, to go back to what I had just been processing in the season before.<\/p>\n<p>I say that\u2014that's not because of me\u2014that's the Lord, through His Holy Spirit was working in that. I say that to people, who are in a hard season: \u201cDon't underestimate the power of continuing to go to the Lord, even when you don't feel like it; because you never know how that might serve your next season\u2014whether it's a joyous season and the ways that that'll be even more beautiful because of the depth there\u2014or other hard seasons that we face in our future.\u201d We're not promised an easy life; we will face things that are challenges. And so using our season that we're in\u2014whatever that looks like\u2014to be intentional in our relationship with the Lord will only serve you for all the future circumstances you face.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:How is Zion today?<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:She is great! I'm happy to report she is almost five years into remission from her cancer. Praise the Lord.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:It was five years ago\u2014it's this week\u2014it might be today that we got the initial surprise cancer diagnosis, where they found the tumor on her liver.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Well, Michael, I don't want to miss out\u2014for you, walking through this, watching Lauren struggle\u2014I'm sure you're struggling as well.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:Oh, for sure.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:How did you get through that? And did you feel the weight of, even Lauren's grief?\u2014and you were experiencing it, too.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:Yeah; oh, absolutely. I'm sure for her\u2014but I know for me\u2014not only grieving, but watching your wife and walking with her in her grief. I don't journal nearly as much as she does. I would say I'm really consistent on January 1st\u2014\"I journal every January 1st,\u201d\u2014it\u2019s just the other 364 days, it\u2019s hit or miss.<\/p>\n<p>But yeah, I mean, that time of prayer\u2014it was, for me, it was\u2014I'm not an aggressive angry person; but it was sometimes yelling at God in my car, just like, \u201cWhat are You doing?!\u201d And sometimes, again, when there's really good news that we want to celebrate for other people that we love, going, \u201cWhy is this so hard for us?\u201d\u2014being completely shocked that, after all this time, that we bring this girl home; and we think, \u201cFinally, our family\u2019s\u2026\u201d Feeling like it was so unfair. What I realized was I assumed we had done the hard part: we had done our part:\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We all do that:\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Michael:\u2014\"Okay, our\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014\u201cI've done the valley.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Michael:Yeah; it's like, \u201cOkay, our other friends didn't go through this; but this was our valley; and now, we're done. We went and traveled; we brought this girl home; and now, our family can truly begin with kids,\u201d and things like that.<\/p>\n<p>Then, to be home\u2014it was the 50th day that we were together as a family\u2014on Day 50 for them to do a minor scan that is for an unrelated issue. And then, for them to call us, and say, \u201cYou need to go to the Children's Hospital immediately because they found this tumor.\u201d I mean, it was walking through it\u2014the Charles Spurgeon quote; this isn't word for word, but became dear in that season\u2014was: \u201cGod is too good to be unjust; and He's too loving to be unkind. And when we cannot trace His hand, we must learn to trust His heart.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That was what I felt like for us\u2014practically, emotionally\u2014I mean, every day, I have this vivid memory of walking Zion to surgery, down the hospital; and I'm holding her, and we're walking away from friends and family. She's been in the country for 50 days; she doesn't speak English. She doesn't have any clue what's about to happen\/what's going on. Plus, she's a year and a half, and so she's just waving at people. I\u2019m feeling like I just numb to take that next step of taking her to surgery. And so that refrain: \u201cI don't know what tomorrow holds, but I know Who holds tomorrow.\u201d That was faith deepening in a way that, like Lauren said, in those seasons, James 1 says: \u201cTo consider it pure joy when you face trials of various kinds, for the testing of your faith will develop perseverance; and perseverance must finish its work so that you may become mature and complete, lacking in nothing.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That was that season\u2014of the years of longing and waiting\u2014led to that moment. And the thing that it taught me was the goodness of God's providence; because it felt so unfair, at the time, to go through that; and to take so long to get to her. But the same God that allowed that to happen was even preparing to spare her life in that we traveled, at the end of 2019\/fall of 2019. We have families that we know, who were in the same program, traveling just a few months later that didn't get to travel, for years, because of Covid\u2014years, which is a tragic period for any parent to not\u2014but especially, knowing that she had this tumor on her liver\u2014that would've been\/who knows how progressed, who knows what it would've done. She\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014might not have made it.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:\u2014might not have made it, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I'm wondering, as we close today, and we'll continue tomorrow: Lauren, I'm wondering, \u201cI am sure a lot of people are being triggered by the pain that they're experiencing and walking through, and they're feeling those exact same things: \u2018Where are You, God?\u2019 \u2018How are You letting me go through this again?\u2019 or \u2018Why is this happening?\u2019\u201d I'm wondering, \u201cCould you just pray for those people who are?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:I\u2019d love to; yeah, let's pray:<\/p>\n<p>God, we come to You and thank You for Your character and that we can know You through Your Word. God, You have given us Your Word, and that we can know You; and that You have written this\u2014You have written\/had Your Word written down for us\u2014that we might see Your character; know who You are; have a relationship with You. God, what a gift.<\/p>\n<p>God, I know that there are many who are listening, who just from hearing our story, might be reflecting on their own painful journeys: their own losses; their own grief experiences. God, I just have so much empathy for any listener who is perhaps even in tears, just thinking about their own painful circumstances, God, and questioning Your character; questioning Your goodness; understandably so.<\/p>\n<p>God, I pray that the power of Your Holy Spirit would be with every single listener\u2014that God, You, in Your bigness and in Your providence\u2014You know every single person listening to this; You know what their story is; You know what their pain is; You know what their life looks like. God, through Your Holy Spirit, I pray that You give peace; I pray that You give comfort; and I pray that You give confidence in Your character in a way that doesn't even make sense, Lord. It may not even make sense to them how they could have comfort and confidence in who You are; but God, I pray that over them. We know that You have the power to do that, God, because You are big and You are good.<\/p>\n<p>And God, I pray that, as they navigate their own seasons, that You would draw them to Your Word; that You would draw them to Your heart, Your goodness, Your beauty, Your kindness, Your love, and to Your joy\u2014God, Your joy that is possible, even in the midst of pain\u2014because You are our joy. God, in Scripture, Christ Himself even says: \u201cWith the joy before Him, He endured the cross,\u201d which doesn't make sense, God. How could someone face something painful\/face something with Jesus\u2014excruciating, going to the cross\u2014and have joy?<\/p>\n<p>But it's the Lord; You knew what the cross would mean; You knew that it meant hope for each of us. We pray that people would look to the cross, and look to the hope and the eternity that they can have because of Christ\u2014what You've done on the cross\u2014and that could give joy and just an eternal hope that doesn't make sense in this world. God, we love You; and we pray this in Your name; amen.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Amen.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Amen. Let me just say: we'd love to send you this book, Beyond Our Control. We didn't even get into Beyond Our Control; that'll be in our next episode.<\/p>\n<p>But I hope this show has been a blessing to you. And if you want to bless us, we are listener-supported; so your donations mean a lot. You can send that to us at FamilyLifeToday.com; we'll send you this book. Or give us a call: 800-358-6329.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. 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and Michael McAfee share their transformative journey of adoption, infertility, and learning to trust God's sovereignty during painful life challenges.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.laurenamcafee.com\/\">Learn more about Lauren McAffee on her website<\/a> .<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/sale\/group-studies-sale\/\">Save 25% on all small group materials at the FamilyLife online shop<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-01-29.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>Beyond Our Control<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Michael and Lauren McAffee<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Beyond Our Control (Day 1 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:January 29, 2025<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I think one of the best things we've ever done for our marriage is go through small group material on marriage with other couples.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Oh, yeah; no question: one of the best things. And we still do it! And right now, we have a 25 percent off discount for you to use some of our great FamilyLife resources, like the new Art of Marriage\u00ae; you could get that\u2014or you could even get our Vertical Marriage\u00ae\u2014and just take some couples through it. It, literally, will change their life. But you ready for this?\u2014it's going to change your life as well. So here's how you get it: just go to FamilyLife.com. You can pick up any resource that you want there and let it bless you and bless others.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Twenty-five percent off; don't miss that!<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:It's not about us; it's not about us. It's knowing that God has, in His sovereignty, the big picture of\u2014not only our lives, but of eternity\u2014and what He is doing in His sovereignty is bigger and better than I, in my finite earthly perspective, can understand.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:If there's a word I love, it\u2019s \u201ccontrol.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I don't think you\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I like being in control.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:No! I feel like you're so good at not being in control.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:That\u2019s because I'm such an amazing guy.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You are! I'm the one who\u2019s the control person.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You do like control.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I tried to control you for probably 15 years, but it didn't work.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Especially, when I drive the car.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:It didn\u2019t work!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah, did it work?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:No!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:So you tried harder!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:No, so I had let Jesus\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014do the worst.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014do more.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You're listening to Lauren and Michael McAffee over there, laughing; because it's the title of their book, Beyond Our Control.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:That's right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Let me read this short little subtitle: Let Go of Unmet Expectations,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Everyone's like, \u201cOh, yeah; how do I do that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Okay, but there's more: Overcome Anxiety,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yes. I need that!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And there's more: and Discover Intimacy with God.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Everybody needs all of those things!<\/p>\n<p>Dave:So where do we start, guys? I mean, obviously, this is something you've had to live; so give our listeners a real quick synopsis. You've been married how many years?<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Fifteen; over fifteen years.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:Married bliss, the whole time.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And you started dating when you were seven years old\u2014something like that. No, you knew each other.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren: We knew each other at seven; started dating at seventeen; and then, yeah, got married at twenty-one. So that was 15 years ago.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Hey, I got to ask you this: \u201cDid you ever date anybody else?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Michael:No.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:No?!<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:I mean, we were so young. I don't know\u2014crushes or whatever\u2014I don\u2019t remember all of that.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:\u201cIf you can't drive, is it dating?\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cNo.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Okay; let me ask you: \u201cOn your wedding day, what was the picture?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:We're going to your wedding day.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cWhat was the picture of your life together?\u2014like, \u201cOh, I thought we would do this\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Your expectations.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cI thought: \u2018We would do this\u2026\u2019 What did your family look like?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Oh, that\u2019s funny. Like on our wedding day, what would we do in our future?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:As two 21-year-olds; what did your future look like?<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yeah, nothing like what our life became! So whenever we got married, Michael\u2014I always knew Michael wanted to be a pastor\u2014and I was really drawn to that and really was looking forward to just being a pastor\u2019s wife.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Wait, wait; you wanted to be a pastor's wife? My wife was like, \u201cI will not\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We went to seminary; I'm like:\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014\u201cDo not do that. Do not.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cI'll going to seminary as long as you don't become a pastor.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:That is so funny.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I was like, \u201cGod, are You sure that's what You're calling me to do? Because I've got a woman who\u2019s not coming with me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You didn't want to be one either, at first.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I didn't either.<\/p>\n<p>So you wanted to be\u2014that\u2019s interesting.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yeah; as a high schooler, I really felt like ministry was going to be my future; and I didn't know what that looked like. But certainly, once Michael and I started dating; and it got serious, I thought, \u201cOkay, I guess being a pastor's wife is what a part of that calling on my heart is going to be.\u201d I was really excited about that; and interestingly, really ended up putting a lot of my identity in being a pastor's wife. I just thought, \u201cWe are just going to be at churches the rest of our lives. I'll be a pastor's wife: I'll volunteer\u2014mentor and discipleship in the church\u2014and lead bible studies.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We know that Michael was alongside that because, when he dressed up\u2014was it Career Day?<\/p>\n<p>Michael:First-grade Career Day; that's right. Had the clip-on tie, the Bible; I was going to preach. You better believe it; yeah. I was nerdy.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I don't know a single person in the universe that has done that, even on Halloween, they don't dress up as a pastor unless they're making a big joke.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:Oh, man; yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:What\u2019s so interesting though\u2014but you're not now.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:I know; right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You are.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:Yes, yes; full-time get to have a different type of ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:It is different.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I was going to say: \u201cYou are a pastor in a different way.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Michael:For sure. Well, I think it connects because the envisioned future that we had on our wedding day was that: \u201cOkay, I'm going to work in a church.\u201d I'm still working, part-time, as a pastor in the same church we met at; and preach once a month.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Oh, you are right now?<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:He is a teaching pastor.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Okay, so he is.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Part-time, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:It\u2019s still home for us. We both have family there at that church; we have that. We've got our careers, our education; it was kind of like everything we wanted. We worked hard; we got to buy a house. I mean, all of the things that kind of come with a young couple's dreams, it was kind of like this: \u201cOkay, you roll up your sleeves, and work hard, have a positive attitude, and things work out.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That was the first thing that didn\u2019t [go] that way was kids\u2014the way that we envisioned children coming into our life and building our family\u2014did not go the way we expected.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:What did you expect?<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yeah, so interestingly, I think we expected for kids to come easily, both through adoption and biologically; and that we have had the opposite of that experience in all the ways. So interestingly, we did start pursuing growing our family through adoption first. We were not necessarily intentionally thinking about, biologically, having children; but we knew we wanted to adopt, and so we started that process<\/p>\n<p>Dave:How did you know you wanted to adopt? That's unique, especially before you have bio kids.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:I am a third-generation of adoptive parents in my family. My parents are adoptive parents, and my grandparents are adoptive parents. I had seen adoption in my family for generations and had really had a heart for it since I was in my late teens and knew that was something that I really wanted to be prayerful about in my future. Michael kind of always knew that; I mean, he had seen my family, obviously.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:It was part of the deal.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Walked through that and knew that he was possibly stepping into that whenever we got married. And then, yeah, he quickly came around.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:Really, I did; it's such a beautiful picture of the gospel once I just realized: \u201cOf course I've been adopted into the family of God. Why would I not express that if the Lord calls us and gives us the opportunity?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I mean, the day that our middle son adopted\u2014well, at different times\u2014one brother; then, the younger brother.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014the sons\u2014you mean.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:We wept.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:\u2014the sons?<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah, the sons; because of that very fact: \u201cThese little boys don't know this\u2014but their future with their bio parents: drugs, streets, homeless\u2014they don't have any idea what their life would've been; and now what it's going to be.\u201d It hit me, just sitting in that courtroom: \u201cThat's us!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014the gospel.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u201cThat is the beauty of Jesus and the gospel.\u201d So you started that process in\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Michael:I was, at the time, there was a partnership that our church had with an orphanage in Uganda. So we immediately were starting to think international, said, \u201cWhat about Uganda? We've got a partnership there.\u201d So we went through Lifeline Children's Services and began the process, thinking it would take about three years. As we neared that three-year mark, they told us, \u201cHey, Uganda is actually about to shut down.\u201d And so after three years of waiting,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:\u2014they closed their international program that the country of Uganda did.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:So you have to start over?<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:So we had to start over, after being three years into the process with the country. At that point\u2014three years of waiting and hoping, and you're back to square one\u2014was really hard. So we looked at other international programs and started pursuing an adoption\/trying to pursue an adoption with India; because our agency was trying to open a new program. It ended up, it wasn't unfolding the way they were hoping to, within the timeline; so they encouraged us to consider elsewhere.<\/p>\n<p>We were almost 30 at the time\u2014I was about 6 months away from turning 30, and Michael was about to turn 30\u2014and that mattered because the program we were wanting to begin pursuing adoption in was China. At the time, both parents had to be 30 to pursue adoption from that country. We had a period there\u2014we were just kind of waiting, doing some of the paperwork to kind of, at least, have it ready to go whenever I turned 30\u2014once I turned 30, we began the China adoption process. We were in that for about 18 months before we were finally matched with our daughter and got to travel to China and bring her home.<\/p>\n<p>In all, it was over six and a half years from when we started the adoption process to when we brought home our daughter, Zion. It was a very long process that, again, was completely beyond our control. We were doing all the right steps: we were pursuing; we were getting all the paperwork done timely; we were doing the home studies; we were preparing as much as we could.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And in the meantime, were you thinking, \u201cWe'll have our own biological child\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yes; so when things weren't happening with adoption,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Michael:When Uganda closed, I think was when\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yeah; we thought, \u201cOkay, well let's pursue seeing about having children biologically and continue pursuing adoption as well.\u201d We knew we wanted to have multiple children. I'm one of six kids, and so I love the idea of a big family. We always knew we wanted to have biological and adopted.<\/p>\n<p>We realized that was not going to happen for us either. Years into walking\u2014infertility and pursuing adoption that wasn't working\u2014it was very painful; it felt very isolating, too. We were pursuing every avenue, both adoption and trying to have children biologically, and nothing was working out. All of our close friends who had gotten married were seeming to get pregnant very easily, and not even trying to, and had multiple babies. We knew that we had been trying to grow our family even before some of our friends had tried starting. So it was really difficult; it was a really difficult season.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:What's that difficulty look like? Did it affect your marriage?\u2014affect your walk with God?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You probably had people asking you guys: \u201cWhen are you going to have kids?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yes; yes, we did.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:A lot of well-meaning passing comments in the church hall.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:We decided to be fairly open about our infertility journey, and so we both were writing about it. We were communicators, so we couldn't help but write about it; or he's a preacher, so he'd use illustrations in sermons. And so then, it was also we were dealing with the comments of people coming and trying to give us advice: \u201cWell, have you tried this?\u201d I'm like, \u201cI promise you we have tried all the things that doctors have recommended.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I would say it was a season that was disorienting for us; because as Michael alluded to, early on, when we started out our lives, things were happening the way we expected. We finished school; we got married; we had jobs; we were getting to do ministry together. We were healthy; we were young.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You had a house.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:We had a house. We had all these things that just kind of fell into place,<\/p>\n<p>which is such a blessing; and we're so grateful. And then, this felt like such<\/p>\n<p>a big thing in life that you dream of, and long for, and hope for that was not<\/p>\n<p>going our way at all.<\/p>\n<p>It really, for me, was a season that I had to grapple with: \u201cWhat do I really think about God and His sovereignty?\u201d and \u201cDo I just trust Him because things have gone my way?\u201d or \u201cDo I trust Him even when things are not going my way, and are actually incredibly painful in my life, the circumstances in my life?\u201d\u2014and having to wrestle to the ground my faith; and say, \u201cNo, I trust God regardless of what is happening in my life, even if things are broken and painful; because I know that God is bigger than what He can provide for me. It's not about what He can or doesn't provide; it's about Him and His character.\u201d I know Him to be good, but I had to remind myself of that on the days that I did not feel like God was good. I had to remind myself: \u201cI know that He is, and keep turning to Him, even when I don't feel like it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Michael, what did it look like for you? Was it different?<\/p>\n<p>Michael:It was really similar journeys; we processed a lot of it together. But both wishing that\u2014wanting to do all the things\u2014because that's your first question; it's like: \u201cWhat do I do? Okay, we're having problems. Adoption is not moving as close. What can we do to fix it?\u201d \u201cFertility\/getting pregnant is not happening. What do we do to fix? What's the fix?\u201d And realizing that, in different levels and different scenarios, that ultimately there are things you do to be faithful to it; but ultimately, it's the Lord who is going to bring it about His sovereign plan.<\/p>\n<p>It was both, like she said\u2014disorienting was a good word\u2014it was hard, really painful, to walk through watching our other friends have baby showers and all those things, and wanting to go to the hospital and celebrate them. At the same time, being grieved for yourself; and then, feeling selfish and bad\u2014and having this, even though we've never had a miscarriage or lost a baby\u2014we have close friends and family who have. But even then, there's an aspect of having a pain that you can point to something, where it's like you can point to a lost baby; and people understand that grief. But a grief of something that hasn't happened, that doesn't exist, is like misplaced\u2014you don't have anything to pin it to\u2014you don't have a moment that you can say, \u201cThis was the day that we lost our child.\u201d It's just a lost dream that has never come to fruition.<\/p>\n<p>It was hard to even articulate the pain and have a way to memorialize the grief that you're going through, because of how it looks; it looks different. At the same time, recognizing\u2014like Lauren alluded to\u2014when I really had a chance to step back and realize how everything else had happened the way that we had dreamt\u2014how I had been so quick to assign that worth or gain to myself and my own hard work rather than to God, and sort of robbed the Lord of the praise that was due to Him for the good favor that He had given us in life. Simultaneously, feeling convicted about that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Lauren, take us back to your prayer life when all that was going on. What did those prayers sound like to God? Because you said you were wrestled down\u2014basically, wrestled to the floor\u2014\"I can't do anything.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:It really was a season of grief, which Michael said it wasn't necessarily easy for people to understand in a tangible way; we were grieving this idea of what our life would look like and how many children we would have by this age. And you're getting older, and you don't have any children\u2014and all of these things\u2014that kind of just, on a day to day, you realize you don't have\u2014that you dreamt of\u2014is a loss.<\/p>\n<p>For me, it was\u2014part of my grieving was having to\u2014I am a big journal-er; I journal every day after my Bible reading\u2014I spend time in prayer and write some of those prayer reflections in a journal. And so some of my prayers were just, \u201cLord, help me to trust You. [Emotion in voice] I don't trust that this is for my good, that I don't have what I desperately want. Why is this not our reality? Help me to trust You.\u201d Just going to Him in my sadness, and even anger\u2014my anger and frustration\u2014that He would not give us this good thing. And looking at our lives, in my pride, thinking, \u201cWe're doing all the things: we're in seminary; we we're serving the church.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:\u201cWe deserve this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:\u201cWe're doing things in ministry.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cWe're obedient.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:\u201cWhat are we doing?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But it's not about us; it's not about us. It's knowing that God has, in His sovereignty, the big picture of\u2014not only our lives, but of eternity\u2014and what He is doing, both in our lives through this and in the world, and however He wants to orchestrate these things in our lives, in His sovereignty, is bigger and better than I, in my finite earthly perspective, can understand. \u201cSo help me to trust You, Lord. I don't trust You. Help me to trust You. I don't see the full picture; You do.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It was almost like forcing myself to continue to point my heart towards the Lord, and to look at His Word, and see examples in Scripture where things looked like they were: \u201cHow could any good come from a bad situation?\u201d Of course, the example we often go to is Joseph; it's like: \u201cLook at his life; he had all of these hard things happen. How could any of this have been good?\u201d When you're in that moment\u2014and you're being sold into slavery; you're in prison\u2014it's like: \u201cHow could any of this be good?\u201d And then, God, in His sovereignty, had the bigger picture. He knew what He was doing, and not because of just about Joseph, but for what He was going to be doing for the whole of His story to point to His glory in the way that He orchestrates every little thing.<\/p>\n<p>In our own lives, we can look to the Scripture and see and find so many helpful examples to remind us God is orchestrating every detail. Yes, even the painful ones; but it is for His glory and our good that He will use those things, as long as we continue to turn our hearts and turn our eyes towards Him, even when it was the last thing we wanted to do.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Even then, your prayer in your journal sounds just like a Psalm right out of the Bible: \u201cWhere are You, O God?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yeah; we found a lot of comfort in the Psalms; I did for sure. It certainly made me feel seen, like: \u201cOkay, others have felt this,\u201d and \u201cI feel seen and the Lord understands.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Was this a little bit like\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014up and down.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014there are moments when I believe everything you just said about God and His sovereign control; and then, there's moments, where I see a baby, or I see whatever, and something triggers: \u201cYeah, but here I am again. Really?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Michael:Oh, for sure.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah, I think we all go through that; but man, it had to be hard.<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yeah, yeah. Even now\u2014I mean, certainly, our story didn't end with just pursuing adoption\u2014so we did adopt our daughter, Zion, from China. We brought her home; and then,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Why did you name her Zion?<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:Yeah, that's a great question. Her Chinese name was Zi\u2014we pronounce that \u201cZi\u201d\u2014but it sounds very different if you're pronouncing it correctly in China. So Zi was her Chinese name, and we wanted to keep that as a part of her name in some way. Zion became an option that we were considering.<\/p>\n<p>Actually, Michael and I were guiding a trip in Israel after we had gotten matched. We had to wait a couple months before we could travel to China; in that time, we were guiding a trip of college students to Israel. We went to the holocaust museum, Yad Vashem, in Israel. I had been before, and so I kind of knew what I was stepping into; but was just moved again at how the Jewish people went through so much, and so much pain and suffering. And they've not only survived so much pain and suffering, but they have thrived. Jewish people, all over the world, have thrived.<\/p>\n<p>Later that day, we went to Mount Zion. At the time, we knew we were considering the name, Zion. We were walking around Zion the same day that I had kind of seen the holocaust museum and thought about God's people. I thought, \u201cI would love for our daughter to, not just survive\u2014but even though she's been through so much: she's had to lose birth family; move to a different country\u2014I want her, not just to be surviving, but to thrive. I believe that for her life; and so we chose the name, Zion. And then, a month and a half after we brought her home from China, she was actually diagnosed with cancer. Surprised that that happened; no one was expecting her to be diagnosed with cancer.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:How old was she at her diagnosis?<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:She was 20 months, so just over a year and a half. Here we are\u2014first-time parents\u2014we had waited almost seven years to finally have a child. And we finally, for a month and a half, were parents; and then, a life-threatening cancer diagnosis. That felt very unfair! [Emotion in voice] For Michael and I, we were like, \u201cLord, we have, for years, prayed and longed to become parents; and now, we finally are; and that is threatened. What is happening?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cWhat are You doing?!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:\u201cWhat are You doing?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I remember just being awake at the hospital and not able to sleep after her surgery. And then, she was doing chemotherapy. And just, I would say those were the hardest times of my faith in wrestling through kind of all of: \u201cWhat do I truly believe about God's character?\u201d I honestly could, in those moments, look back to the years of infertility and not having adoption work out. The season right before that had been what I thought was the hardest season I had been walking through\u2014certainly, laid the groundwork for me to see the lessons in that season of infertility, and longing for children, and adoption not working\u2014as I wrestled with God and sought to deeper understand His Word so that I might better trust in His character. That laid the foundation for me, whenever we dealt with that cancer diagnosis, to go back to what I had just been processing in the season before.<\/p>\n<p>I say that\u2014that's not because of me\u2014that's the Lord, through His Holy Spirit was working in that. I say that to people, who are in a hard season: \u201cDon't underestimate the power of continuing to go to the Lord, even when you don't feel like it; because you never know how that might serve your next season\u2014whether it's a joyous season and the ways that that'll be even more beautiful because of the depth there\u2014or other hard seasons that we face in our future.\u201d We're not promised an easy life; we will face things that are challenges. And so using our season that we're in\u2014whatever that looks like\u2014to be intentional in our relationship with the Lord will only serve you for all the future circumstances you face.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:How is Zion today?<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:She is great! I'm happy to report she is almost five years into remission from her cancer. Praise the Lord.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:It was five years ago\u2014it's this week\u2014it might be today that we got the initial surprise cancer diagnosis, where they found the tumor on her liver.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Well, Michael, I don't want to miss out\u2014for you, walking through this, watching Lauren struggle\u2014I'm sure you're struggling as well.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:Oh, for sure.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:How did you get through that? And did you feel the weight of, even Lauren's grief?\u2014and you were experiencing it, too.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:Yeah; oh, absolutely. I'm sure for her\u2014but I know for me\u2014not only grieving, but watching your wife and walking with her in her grief. I don't journal nearly as much as she does. I would say I'm really consistent on January 1st\u2014\"I journal every January 1st,\u201d\u2014it\u2019s just the other 364 days, it\u2019s hit or miss.<\/p>\n<p>But yeah, I mean, that time of prayer\u2014it was, for me, it was\u2014I'm not an aggressive angry person; but it was sometimes yelling at God in my car, just like, \u201cWhat are You doing?!\u201d And sometimes, again, when there's really good news that we want to celebrate for other people that we love, going, \u201cWhy is this so hard for us?\u201d\u2014being completely shocked that, after all this time, that we bring this girl home; and we think, \u201cFinally, our family\u2019s\u2026\u201d Feeling like it was so unfair. What I realized was I assumed we had done the hard part: we had done our part:\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We all do that:\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Michael:\u2014\"Okay, our\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014\u201cI've done the valley.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Michael:Yeah; it's like, \u201cOkay, our other friends didn't go through this; but this was our valley; and now, we're done. We went and traveled; we brought this girl home; and now, our family can truly begin with kids,\u201d and things like that.<\/p>\n<p>Then, to be home\u2014it was the 50th day that we were together as a family\u2014on Day 50 for them to do a minor scan that is for an unrelated issue. And then, for them to call us, and say, \u201cYou need to go to the Children's Hospital immediately because they found this tumor.\u201d I mean, it was walking through it\u2014the Charles Spurgeon quote; this isn't word for word, but became dear in that season\u2014was: \u201cGod is too good to be unjust; and He's too loving to be unkind. And when we cannot trace His hand, we must learn to trust His heart.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That was what I felt like for us\u2014practically, emotionally\u2014I mean, every day, I have this vivid memory of walking Zion to surgery, down the hospital; and I'm holding her, and we're walking away from friends and family. She's been in the country for 50 days; she doesn't speak English. She doesn't have any clue what's about to happen\/what's going on. Plus, she's a year and a half, and so she's just waving at people. I\u2019m feeling like I just numb to take that next step of taking her to surgery. And so that refrain: \u201cI don't know what tomorrow holds, but I know Who holds tomorrow.\u201d That was faith deepening in a way that, like Lauren said, in those seasons, James 1 says: \u201cTo consider it pure joy when you face trials of various kinds, for the testing of your faith will develop perseverance; and perseverance must finish its work so that you may become mature and complete, lacking in nothing.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That was that season\u2014of the years of longing and waiting\u2014led to that moment. And the thing that it taught me was the goodness of God's providence; because it felt so unfair, at the time, to go through that; and to take so long to get to her. But the same God that allowed that to happen was even preparing to spare her life in that we traveled, at the end of 2019\/fall of 2019. We have families that we know, who were in the same program, traveling just a few months later that didn't get to travel, for years, because of Covid\u2014years, which is a tragic period for any parent to not\u2014but especially, knowing that she had this tumor on her liver\u2014that would've been\/who knows how progressed, who knows what it would've done. She\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014might not have made it.<\/p>\n<p>Michael:\u2014might not have made it, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I'm wondering, as we close today, and we'll continue tomorrow: Lauren, I'm wondering, \u201cI am sure a lot of people are being triggered by the pain that they're experiencing and walking through, and they're feeling those exact same things: \u2018Where are You, God?\u2019 \u2018How are You letting me go through this again?\u2019 or \u2018Why is this happening?\u2019\u201d I'm wondering, \u201cCould you just pray for those people who are?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Lauren:I\u2019d love to; yeah, let's pray:<\/p>\n<p>God, we come to You and thank You for Your character and that we can know You through Your Word. God, You have given us Your Word, and that we can know You; and that You have written this\u2014You have written\/had Your Word written down for us\u2014that we might see Your character; know who You are; have a relationship with You. God, what a gift.<\/p>\n<p>God, I know that there are many who are listening, who just from hearing our story, might be reflecting on their own painful journeys: their own losses; their own grief experiences. God, I just have so much empathy for any listener who is perhaps even in tears, just thinking about their own painful circumstances, God, and questioning Your character; questioning Your goodness; understandably so.<\/p>\n<p>God, I pray that the power of Your Holy Spirit would be with every single listener\u2014that God, You, in Your bigness and in Your providence\u2014You know every single person listening to this; You know what their story is; You know what their pain is; You know what their life looks like. God, through Your Holy Spirit, I pray that You give peace; I pray that You give comfort; and I pray that You give confidence in Your character in a way that doesn't even make sense, Lord. It may not even make sense to them how they could have comfort and confidence in who You are; but God, I pray that over them. We know that You have the power to do that, God, because You are big and You are good.<\/p>\n<p>And God, I pray that, as they navigate their own seasons, that You would draw them to Your Word; that You would draw them to Your heart, Your goodness, Your beauty, Your kindness, Your love, and to Your joy\u2014God, Your joy that is possible, even in the midst of pain\u2014because You are our joy. God, in Scripture, Christ Himself even says: \u201cWith the joy before Him, He endured the cross,\u201d which doesn't make sense, God. How could someone face something painful\/face something with Jesus\u2014excruciating, going to the cross\u2014and have joy?<\/p>\n<p>But it's the Lord; You knew what the cross would mean; You knew that it meant hope for each of us. We pray that people would look to the cross, and look to the hope and the eternity that they can have because of Christ\u2014what You've done on the cross\u2014and that could give joy and just an eternal hope that doesn't make sense in this world. God, we love You; and we pray this in Your name; amen.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Amen.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Amen. Let me just say: we'd love to send you this book, Beyond Our Control. We didn't even get into Beyond Our Control; that'll be in our next episode.<\/p>\n<p>But I hope this show has been a blessing to you. And if you want to bless us, we are listener-supported; so your donations mean a lot. You can send that to us at FamilyLifeToday.com; we'll send you this book. Or give us a call: 800-358-6329.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. 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