{"id":311991,"date":"2025-01-28T04:08:17","date_gmt":"2025-01-28T09:08:17","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/is-there-a-masculinity-crisis-today-kevin-kb-burgess-ameen-hudson\/"},"modified":"2025-01-28T11:26:32","modified_gmt":"2025-01-28T16:26:32","slug":"is-there-a-masculinity-crisis-today-kevin-kb-burgess-ameen-hudson","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/is-there-a-masculinity-crisis-today-kevin-kb-burgess-ameen-hudson\/","title":{"rendered":"Is There a Masculinity Crisis Today?: Kevin &#8220;KB&#8221; Burgess &#038; Ameen Hudson"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>There is growing concern about men and masculinity that needs to be addressed. Podcasters, Kevin &#8220;KB&#8221; Burgess and Ameen Hudson, explore manhood, toxic masculinity, and how to raise godly sons.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Is there a masculinity crisis? Podcasters, Kevin &#8220;KB&#8221; Burgess and Ameen Hudson, explore manhood, toxic masculinity, and how to raise godly sons.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":311992,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/5240c30c-c63c-4ec0-956f-b261010c4584\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:28:14","filesize":"25.88M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2025-01-28 04:08:17","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2826,2835],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[10931],"cwp_profile":[9943,9942],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-311991","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-men","category-raising-boys","podcast_series-kevin-kb-burgess-ameen-hudson-dangerous-jesus","cwp_profile-ameen-hudson","cwp_profile-kevin-kb-burgess","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2025\/01\/image_02f2b0.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/311991\/is-there-a-masculinity-crisis-today-kevin-kb-burgess-ameen-hudson","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/311991\/is-there-a-masculinity-crisis-today-kevin-kb-burgess-ameen-hudson","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"r1fG0lsSSs\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/is-there-a-masculinity-crisis-today-kevin-kb-burgess-ameen-hudson\/\">Is There a Masculinity Crisis Today?: Kevin &#8220;KB&#8221; Burgess &#038; Ameen Hudson<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/is-there-a-masculinity-crisis-today-kevin-kb-burgess-ameen-hudson\/embed\/#?secret=r1fG0lsSSs\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Is There a Masculinity Crisis Today?: Kevin &#8220;KB&#8221; Burgess &#038; Ameen Hudson&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"r1fG0lsSSs\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["5240c30c-c63c-4ec0-956f-b261010c4584"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/5240c30c-c63c-4ec0-956f-b261010c4584\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:28:14"],"filesize":["25.88M"],"_thumbnail_id":["311992"],"show_notes":["<ul>\n<li>Learn more about <a href=\"https:\/\/whoiskb.com\/\">KB on his website<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/ameen_hga\">Follow Ameen Hudson on Instagram<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/sale\/group-studies-sale\/\">Save 25% on all small group materials at the FamilyLife online shop<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-01-28.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>Is There a Masculinity Crisis Today?<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Kevin \u201cKB\u201d Burgess and Ameen Hudson<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Dangerous Jesus (Day 2 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:January 28, 2025<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We've led a lot of small groups over the years, but one of the frustrations is figuring out: \u201cWhat to use?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u201cWhat's our content going to be?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:That's one of the things we do: we help you with great resources to lead a small group. Right now, those resources are 25 percent off. You can get the new Art of Marriage\u00ae if you want; you can get our Vertical Marriage\u00ae; you can get Love Like You Mean It\u00ae. There's all kinds of great small group resources. They're really easy because it\u2019s sort of plug-and-play: you put them in, and we give you a workbook; you have discussion questions. God meets couples in your home, or in your basement, or at a restaurant\u2014wherever you want to do it\u2014with these resources. That's one of the greatest things about being part of FamilyLife; and you can get them today, 25 percent off. Just go to FamilyLifeToday.com; pick whatever resource you want, and let God use that and use you to change marriages wherever you are.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And this sale lasts until the end of January, so you can check it out in the show notes or at FamilyLife.com\/Shop. You can start your small group off right this year.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Sometimes we can think that, just because we live in proximity with one another, we know each other. That's not true: you could still hide things; you can still not be honest; you can still put up a veneer and try to be<\/p>\n<p>Mr. or Mrs. Impressive around your spouse and not be, honestly, vulnerable. What I think has tremendously helped us is me going to my wife, and saying, \u201cI just want to be honest: \u2018This is how I feel.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:One of the hard parts of having adult kids is when they come to us and they kind of reveal some of the things that they wish had happened or they reveal\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:It's a wonderful conversation; it's just awesome.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I'm really glad that they come to us. But one of the things one of our sons said, when he was in his 20s\u2014he came to me, was doing something; I had prayed for him\u2014I don't know where he was going, maybe to Egypt, or I don't know; it was doing a mission trip. I laid my hands on him; I prayed for him. I looked at him, and said, \u201cHey, Cody, be careful.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>He stopped for a minute, and he had this look of \u201cUghhh!\u201d I said, \u201cWhat?!\u201d He goes, \u201cMom, when you say, \u2018Be careful,\u2019 that communicates to me you're worried, and I don't have it; you're afraid that I'm going to do something wrong; or something's going to happen to me; or \u2018Do I have what it takes?\u2019\u201d I was like, \u201cWell, what do you want me to say?\u201d He goes, \u201cI want you to say, \u2018I can't wait to see how God uses you, because you have what it takes.\u2019\u201d I had this feeling of: \u201cOh, how many times did I say: \u2018Hey, be careful,\u2019 \u2018Oh, be careful\u2019?\u201d But especially\u2014maybe, a man; I think to a woman, too\u2014\u201cBe careful,\u201d says, \u201cI don't know if you can do it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u201cDon't take risks.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cDon't take risks.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u201cDon't take risks.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>KB Burgess and Ameen Hudson are back in the studio.<\/p>\n<p>KB:I love it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And again, we're talking Dangerous Jesus. The title tells you we are supposed to live dangerously, because Jesus is sort of is dangerous if you follow Him.<\/p>\n<p>And you\u2019ve got kids.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yeah, they're both married; both have kids; so maybe, you can relate to that. But I bet you guys\u2014we know your story; you've been on before\u2014the things that change and shape us are the things that, sometimes, are dangerous.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Yeah, yeah, yeah; true; absolutely. Yes, I have a lot of kids; at least, it\u2019s what it feels like. I have three, but it feels like a lot.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2014particularly, with my boys\u2014am trying to get them accustomed to feeling that moment, where everything about you, biologically, is saying: \u201cStop, bro; this is too hard. Go home. It's much easier to go grab an iPad upstairs and start playing Roblox. Don't complete this run,\u201d \u201cDon't complete this pushup,\u201d \u201cDon't complete this task,\u201d that has been laid. When that feeling arises, I'm trying to push them to feel it, acknowledge it, and go anyways.<\/p>\n<p>Because if that happens, a muscle will begin to emerge. You will start to strengthen a faith muscle in your soul, as it were, that prepares you for this world.<\/p>\n<p>I try to teach them to make their days matter; so what I'll say at the end of the day is: \u201cDid today matter?\u201d \u201cWas there something you did today\u201d\u2014especially, on their off days\u2014\"that means something for the rest of your life?\u201d or \u201c\u2026the rest of your week?\u201d \u201cDid you read anything?\u201d \u201cDid you learn anything?\u201d \u201cDid you fix anything?\u201d \u201cDid you attempt anything?\u201d I don't care if it's something trivial, like, \u201cDaddy, there's this part of this game that I have been trying to beat for six months; and I finally beat it.\u201d Even that I see as a small grace of: \u201cYou're getting a rep to do something difficult; make your day matter, and try to attempt something hard.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Okay; but KB, people are going to push back, like, \u201cOh, now, you've created a performance-oriented situation.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>KB:Sure, sure, sure; yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:But you're not; you don't want to do that.<\/p>\n<p>KB:For sure. I think that a big part of this life is effort, failure, and grace. This is a\u2014when you look at what Paul says to Timothy\u2014he says, \u201cTrain yourself for godliness.\u201d Now, don't miss this; because oftentimes, we're waiting to be made godly by God. We're like, \u201cI'm just going to be in the right place and then I'm going to wake up godly.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u201cI'm just going to pray for godliness, and God is just going to download it into me.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>KB:That\u2019s right. I\u2019m going to pray: \u201cLord\/God, just give me patience.\u201d You should be praying that; because once it hits,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u2014God gave it to you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And in some ways, it is imputed.<\/p>\n<p>KB:That's right; that's right; that's right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You are made in Christ; you are righteous.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Absolutely; correct. However, the means by which you sort of put yourself in the flow of God's good gifts, that He gives us in sanctification, includes your effort. Dallas Willard said it best; he said that, \u201cGrace is opposed to earning; it is not opposed to effort.\u201d One of the challenges that we might have is trying to balance out that kind of: \u201cI don't want them to think that their whole life is based on what they do\u201d; and we don't want to create this works-based parenting.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cYou have my love, my affection, my approval, whether you do great or not. And when you fail, you'll get even more of me. When you fall, I will be closer to you than when you're succeeding; because Daddy knows failure. However, if you are to make a lasting difference in this life, I have to balance that kind of concern for not wanting you to become too consumed by the doing. But at the same time, I want to recognize that God lays out a work for you to walk into\u2014'a work,\u2019 this is what Ephesians 2 says\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014training.<\/p>\n<p>KB: \u2014\"and then, there's a training in it. These things free you up.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think that, for me, with my boys, it's a delicate balance. I want to have this sort of triune approach, where:<\/p>\n<p>There is a piece that does include your effort.<\/p>\n<p>There is a piece that includes the grace of God, which is a supernatural reality that God gives us that you cannot work for; He provides it; it is His.<\/p>\n<p>And then, there is this mercy\/forgiveness nearness\/restoration for when you fall.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That's good.<\/p>\n<p>KB:These things work together to create a realistic, mature kind of parenting that prepares our kids for the real world.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:It's interesting\u2014I read a book, years ago, by John Ortberg\u2014If You Want to Walk on Water, You Got to Get Out of the Boat. You ever heard of that book?<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Whoo!<\/p>\n<p>KB:No, but that's a great book quote.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:It's, obviously, Matthew 14: the Peter walking-on-water story. But one of the things I remember him saying in this book was\u2014when you're a dad, and you're in the swimming pool; and you've got a four-year-old, five-year-old, six-year-old, whatever, on the edge of the pool; and you're saying, \u201cJump,\u201d and you got your hands out; maybe, they're three; they can't swim yet, but they know you can catch them\u2014he says, \u201cYou watch that kid. He walks up\u2014and he tiptoes up, and you can see there's this battle going on in his brain: \u2018Fear or faith?\u2019: \u2018Dad's there; he's got his hands out. I've never done this before, I think he\u2019ll catch me,\u2019\u2014but I think, then, there's the water; and he's never done it; so he backs up.\u201d He's like: \u201cThat's the Christian walk: fear or faith.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I'll never forget\u2014John said in the book\u2014he said, \u201cIf he never jumps\/if he's too afraid to jump,\u201d\u2014and some kids do; they walk away, and you're like, \u201cHey,\u201d\u2014he goes, \u201cHe may begin to think, \u2018 I'm sort of not a risk-taking kid; that's who I am.\u2019 But if he does jump, he finds out Dad's there\u2014\u2018Dad will catch me,\u2019\u2014that's that leap of faith.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But when he's in the air, it's still like\u2014and then, he finds out\u2014it's what you started with: our son was saying, \u201cDon't encourage me as I walk out, as a kid, who never takes the jump. Encourage me: \u2018You can take the jump, and you've got it; and there's a God out there who\u2019s going to walk with you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So my question to you guys is: \u201cHow do you keep this energy\/passion you walk in here with every time? You are water-walkers. At least, you come across that way; and I'm like, \u201cOkay, that doesn't just happen; there's training. There's stuff going on behind the scenes that nobody sees, because results are always in public of what we do in private.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>KB: Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You don't become dangerous unless you've been\u2014and you know the Father, who's in the water\u2014who will catch you.<\/p>\n<p>KB:That is right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:But also, you've had some practice jumping.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Absolutely; absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen: I think that, for me, a big part of it is community. One of the means by which God keeps me is through His children and my community of brothers and sisters, who are around me; they fuel me. I think the Bible makes it clear we confess our sins one to another so that our heart may not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin: \u201cEncourage one another daily as you see the day approaching.\u201d Those are the things that keep me going.<\/p>\n<p>It's almost like\u2014again, you're in a professional sports arena\u2014you know how much players inspire other players to go out there. The locker room is important, right? Because in the locker room, I'm giving\u2014if we're in there, firing each other up\u2014and then, we're like, \u201cWe're going to go out on this field together,\u201d then that's where the energy comes. \u201cTake the mountain\u201d; the energy comes. I can't go out and beat 11 people in the field by myself\u2014it doesn't matter how good I am; I can't\u2014but if I have a team with me, they are going to inspire me: \u201cI'm going out here; you're going out here. We're all going out here together.\u201d So a big part\u2014just one piece; I'll let KB bring some more\u2014is, for me, is the community.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:So dangerous friendship.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u2014which is a chapter in the book.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Yeah, there is; absolutely, and one of my favorites. \u201cDangerous Joy\u201d and \u201cDangerous Friendship\u201d are my two favorite chapters in the book; because, first of all, God exists as a community of friends: the Father, Son, and the Spirit. They embody everything that we would want to have in the friendship with the people who are around us, where we rejoice in one another; we work together; we accomplish things as a unit. There's this triune reality that we see in John 17, that Jesus, in the high priestly prayer says, \u201cFather, the unity that We have, the oneness that We have, might that exist in Your people who are coming behind the message that these disciples are preaching. May it exist, triune unity, in the unity of the church.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>We accomplish what we do in this world via us being linked together with one another. Intentionally thinking about how my friendship with Ameen might help him love Jesus more is very much connected to the entire flourishing of my life. When we talked about this on the car ride over here\u2014when we sin against each other, when we fail each other, when we misunderstand each other\u2014those moments, for many folks in my community, have become another opportunity for us to go deeper into our relationship, where we can say: \u201cBro, I didn't mean it that way,\u201d or \u201cIs that what I said? Bro, I am sorry; I repent. Will you forgive me?\u201d \u201cYes, I forgive you, brother. Let's work through the details, and let's start to restore what was lost.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>These moments strengthen our friendships instead of, as we see a practice in the world\u2014somebody brings the wrong energy to you; or you get one shot, and you're done\u2014that's not kingdom culture. Kingdom culture is us trying over, and over, and over, and over again. And with every single sort of turning of the page, you get a more prolific story that, the reconciliation that we received in Jesus, we have that with one another. And there's these examples of it, even when we make mistakes with one another. I'm a part of a community that's 20 years strong, of brothers and sisters, who have been trying to embody the life of Christ in the city. And that has largely been fueled by the ways in which we have embodied Jesus for each other.<\/p>\n<p>We don't think of ourselves that way, like, \u201cMan, wherever we go, man, we are just fire.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:No, we don't; not at all.<\/p>\n<p>KB:But I'll tell you: if whatever you all are experiencing is definitely connected<\/p>\n<p>to the fact that we are a burning fire filled with many logs, and I am just<\/p>\n<p>one log in the fire.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:That's true.<\/p>\n<p>KB:And once the fire starts to sort of move away from me, and my log starts<\/p>\n<p>to go dim a little bit, there are leaders, and counselors, and pastors who<\/p>\n<p>can help move things around to get the embers to make sure that we stay<\/p>\n<p>connected and continue to burn. That is what has kept us.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Honestly, I agree. You two, together, are inspiring. I think everybody longs for that. So talk to the listener, who\u2019s like, \u201cI want that; I want that. I don't even know how to go about getting that,\u201d\u2014especially men\u2014women\/we, it's a little easier for us maybe; but I don't know if it is.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Hey, Babe, don't be putting us men down.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Yes, but there is something there.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I'm just talking to my friends, who are saying, \u201cI want my husband to have more than just me as a friend.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>KB:Yes, I've actually heard that there's some data that supports that, that particularly you see widowers when a husband loses his wife, man, the world kind of starts crumbling. Oftentimes, he'll remarry; or things just start to just kind of fall apart. But for women, oftentimes, when they lose their husbands, they still kind of can thrive in friendships. A lot of those men would say their best friend is their wife. Those wives have other friends, outside of their husband.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:That's healthier.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Yes. I think that the first thing that I would say is that: \u201cIf you want deep relationship\/deep friendships that spur you on to deeper relationship with Christ, then you need to be the friend that you want to see.\u201d This is what you see in dating shows or dating apps\u2014you're interviewing someone to see if they're the right person for you\u2014all of life is you trying to check the boxes: \u201cLet me try to see if you even come with the energy that's going to be compatible with what I'm trying to do; where I'm trying to go: \u2018I'm not going to have you.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>What if it wasn't, first, about: \u201cIf your resume is good to be accepted in my friendship job\u201d? What if it was the other way around, where I just want to be a good friend to you?\u2014\"Let me listen to you.\u201d Someone said before that listening is so close to loving that you can't really tell the difference; it feels like the same thing. C.S. Lewis talked about: how humility is not the guy who sits in the corner, and doesn't say nothing to nobody, and just walks around with his head down; you can have quiet, prideful people.<\/p>\n<p>But humility is often that person who\u2019s just interested in you: \u201cWhat was your day like?\u201d \u201cThat must've been hard,\u201d \u201cWhat are the kinds of things you're trying to accomplish?\u201d And then, when I leave, and you say, \u201cHey, pray for me about \u2018X\u2019\u201d; I go home and pray for you about \u201cX\u201d; then, I follow up on it a week later. Even something as small as that\u2014let's be honest\u2014\u201cWe are going to pray for you, brother\u201d; then, I never ask you:\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Yeah, that's true.<\/p>\n<p>KB:\u2014\"Did God do anything about the thing I prayed?\u201d I prayed about it,<\/p>\n<p>and that thing was out of my mind. We feel loved when people show that<\/p>\n<p>they want to be good friends to us, and that creates good friends for us.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Sam Alberry\u2014one of his best friends is Ray Ortlund\u2014<\/p>\n<p>KB:I love Ray.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014and Ray says\u2014was it his father that used to say? Or grandfather used to say?\u2014\u201cInstead of walking into a room, and saying, \u2018Here I am\u2019\u2019; he said, \u201cYou should walk in the room, and say, \u2018There you are.\u2019\u201d So that I'm asking you\u2014I'm looking into you\u2014\u201cThere you are; I've been looking for you.\u201d You're asking\u2014exactly what you're saying, KB\u2014you're asking them questions: \u201cHow are you doing?\u201d \u201c What's going on?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Okay, I want to apply this to marriage.<\/p>\n<p>KB:That's amazing.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Come on with it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I hear you; I love it.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Tread lightly<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Dangerous Jesus: dangerous marriage. It's like marriage gets hard. She is<\/p>\n<p>my best friend. And all the things you just said about men in my life\u2014I<\/p>\n<p>want that\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You have that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014but I want to do it with Ann as well, but marriage gets hard.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Oh, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And we even say, at FamilyLife: \u201cIf you don't work at oneness, you will drift toward isolation. It's the natural drift.\u201d So this is hard; walk us there: \u201cHow<\/p>\n<p>do you guys apply this in your own marriages?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>KB:I just want to give\u2014I\u2019ll just say another Ray Ortlund quote\u2014that I think applies to this.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Okay, good.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Ray Ortlund said that: \u201cYou, essentially, have two options in relationships.\u201d He says, \u201cYou can either be impressive or you can be known; you can't have both.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Whoa.<\/p>\n<p>KB:If you are going to choose to be known\u2014and this is what my wife and I have been trying to make this the culture of our relationship\u2014that I, first, am not trying to be this well-put together [image]: \u201cI'm never in need; I have all the answers. The problem has got to be you, because it can't be me; I'm way too smart for that.\u201d I need to be able to relate to my wife in a way that does show that she can trust me, that I have a vision of where we're going, to some degree; but I'm still very much broken and in need of a Savior.<\/p>\n<p>I have found that, if the cross\u2014and our trying to beat each other to the cross in repentance; beat each other to the cross, in Him being the impressive One, and us being the needy ones\u2014I have found that, as I have prioritized us knowing each other for who we actually are, not who we pretend to be, it has created this kind of intimacy that allows us to feel safe with one another. She can say, \u201cI know him\u201d; l and I can say, \u201cI know her.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Because it really isn't our performance; it really isn't us trying to keep up a veneer. Especially for folks\u2014if you're church people\u2014I cannot stress how toxic it is for our children. When you get to church on Sunday, and you all were fighting all the way there; then you stepped foot into the lobby, and all of a sudden, you are a St. Andrew. And now, it's: \u201cHallelujah,\u201d \u201cPraise God,\u201d\u2014raising your hands with the same hands that you raised against your children in absolute anger and wrath. These things show\u2014it creates this sort of dualistic impressive Christianity\u2014we call it \u201cPlastic Christianity.\u201d We want to integrate kind of a vulnerable kind of Christianity that is comfortable with Jesus being the One\u2014who is the impressive, the celebrity, the One who\u2019s got it all together\u2014and we keep returning to Him. We find, in doing so, Jesus brings us together.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah; Ameen, you've got a baby in the house.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:I do; yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:So that makes marriage awesome; but also, \u201cWhoa!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Yes, it makes it hard. It's a new season for me and my wife. Before, it's you all with one another\u2014so you get to really focus on you and your spouse\u2014it's just your marriage. But now, when you have another person\u2014and babies are very needy, as we know\u2014<\/p>\n<p>KB:\u2014very demanding.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u2014very demanding; he's like, \u201cI want my milk, and I want it now!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And you don't necessarily get the attention from your wife that you used to get.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:No, no, no, no, no, no; that's been hard. That's been a season that I think that we've been in. But you know what? One of the things that has happened is: I was\u2014as KB said, the vulnerability piece is important in marriage\u2014because if my wife is my good friend\/my best friend, I cannot just be Mr. Christian Superman; because that's not who I really am. She knows that. I think that, sometimes, we can think that, just because we live in proximity with one another, we know each other; that's not true. And I had to be\u2014<\/p>\n<p>KB:Keep cooking.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:No, but it's true. I think that we think, \u201cWell, we live together; we do life every day together. We're living under the same roof; that means we know each other.\u201d No, it doesn't\u2014you could still hide things; you can still not be honest; you can still put up a veneer and try to be Mr. or Mrs. Impressive around your spouse\u2014and not be, honestly, vulnerable.<\/p>\n<p>I think that what has actually helped us through\u2014what you've just said is exactly what has been happening\u2014\u201cMan, I feel like I'm on the back burner;\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yes; been there.<\/p>\n<p>KB:\u2014\"and it doesn't feel good.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u2014it doesn't feel good.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>KB:\u201cI don\u2019t like it!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u201cI don\u2019t like it.\u201d Yeah, yeah; I would imagine. I thought about that; I'm like,<\/p>\n<p>\u201cMan, I feel this way with one kid. What's going to happen if we have<\/p>\n<p>another one; and then, another one?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But what I think has tremendously helped us is me going to my wife, and<\/p>\n<p>saying, \u201cI just want to be honest; this is how I feel\u2026I'm not saying that you<\/p>\n<p>are doing anything wrong. I understand, now, we have a child; and we<\/p>\n<p>have to give him our attention. He actually needs it; it's healthy for him to<\/p>\n<p>have it, but I'm struggling and this is how I feel.\u201d And then, she got to open<\/p>\n<p>up, and say, \u201cThank you for sharing that. This is how I feel\u2026\u201d And then, I<\/p>\n<p>got to say, \u201cOh, I get it; I see it,\u201d\u2014I didn't really understand how she felt\u2014<\/p>\n<p>like, \u201cI get it.\u201d [She said]: \u201cI have the same tension, and I feel like I do want<\/p>\n<p>to give you the attention; but then, [I\u2019m] torn between giving him attention;<\/p>\n<p>and then, this is what's been going on with me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:If you would've come to her, and said, \u201cWhy aren't you giving me\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u201cWhy?\u201d \u201cWhat?!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Then, she's got her defensives up.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:I had to get there. In the beginning, I felt that way; I felt like I'm angry: \u201cWhy am I not\u2026\u201d But then, we had a wonderful conversation\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Way to go.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u2014a few weeks ago one night; and we were just vulnerable with each other. I was like, \u201cBabe, I've been a little angry.\u201d I told her, \u201cI've been angry; I've been mad. And this is why\u2026It's not your fault, but this is how I felt.\u201d She was like, \u201cNo, I understand that. And this is how I feel\u2026\u201d I tell you: that has radically transformed our relationship, in this season, because of that.<\/p>\n<p>But it would not have happened if we were not vulnerable with one another. In the beginning, I wasn\u2019t; I was just keeping it to myself; I was like, \u201cI feel this way; I'm getting angry.\u201d I was like, \u201cI'm going to hold it. She's dealing with enough right now. I don't even know if she can handle if I tell her this.\u201d But it got to the point that I was like, \u201cNo, we need to talk about it\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014getting it in the light.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u2014and we need to get it in the light.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I\u2019m thinking, even when Preston and Jackie Perry were here a few weeks ago, she said something; I'm like, \u201cOh, this is so mind-blowing.\u201d Preston was saying, \u201cWhy aren't you submitting to me?\u201d This is when they were in early parts of their marriage. And she said, \u201cWhat I needed you to say is: \u2018What are you afraid of?\u2019\u201d It's exactly what you're saying, Ameen; you're getting to the heart of \u201cHere's what I'm feeling\u2026\u201d\u2014\"What are you afraid of?\u201d\u2014instead of\u2014\u201cWhy aren't you doing this?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Yes, yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cWhat's going on inside that's making you pull away?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Oh, yes. And then, the great thing about that is: once we got to actually hear where we were, it's like the anger went away. I was so much more gracious: \u201cI see you,\u201d \u201cI see where you are.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That's what she's longing for! \u201cDo you see me?\u201d And you\u2019re thinking that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yes, she wants to be seen; and you saw.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:It's a beautiful moment. But what I say is that vulnerability is what created that\u2014it couldn't be the mask; it couldn't be the veneer\u2014it had to be the real!<\/p>\n<p>KB: Yes, sir.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:That's how we got to where we are.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And again, we've been talking dangerous, dangerous, dangerous. It's the<\/p>\n<p>title of the book, [Dangerous Jesus]. Vulnerability is dangerous.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Oh, yes! And Jesus was vulnerable!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Scary.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen: I think that, when we think about vulnerability, we got to think about our Lord who was vulnerable. He took folks to the garden with Him. When He was praying in anguish, He actually turns to His disciples\u2014two of His disciples\u2014and He says, \u201cI am in great anguish.\u201d He literally says that to them: \u201cto the point of death.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>KB:He confesses to them death: \u201cThis feels like death.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u201cI am in great anguish.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cPlease pray for Me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:And then, they watch Him pray. That's vulnerability; this is Jesus doing it. Jesus has turned to His disciples, saying, \u201cHey, man, I am stressed! I am in anguish!\u201d And then, they get to see what He does with that anguish, though: He confesses it, and He goes to the Father with it. So Jesus has His inner circle of disciples, whom He brings with Him in His most vulnerable moment, confesses to them, \u201cI'm in anguish\u201d; and then, brings it to the Father. What makes us think that we can't be like that? Our Lord was a vulnerable Lord with His friends.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And when we go to that dangerous spot, and say, \u201cI'm going to be vulnerable,\u201d\u2014again, this is my opinion\u2014I don't think anybody runs away from that. They lean into it; it draws people.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Very true.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Nobody ran away from Jesus; they were like, \u201cHe needs me; He actually needs me.\u201d And your wife, or your husband\u2014if you go there\u2014your wife's probably going to go, \u201cI love you. That's why we're one,\u201d\u2014rather than\u2014\u201cDon't ever do that again.\u201d They're going to be like\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We've been married 44 years; and after 44 years, no one on the planet knows me the way Dave does.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:He knows\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014vice versa; the same way.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014my weaknesses, all of my faults, all of my sin; and we know each other, and he loves me. It's miraculous, and it is the gospel.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:When you can see all of your spouse\u2019s flaws, and you bug each other, and you let each other down\u2014and you still are loved\u2014that's what Jesus does to us; it\u2019s miraculous. A couple, together, following Jesus; now, that's dangerous.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:That\u2019s good. Come on, now.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Indeed; yes, indeed.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You guys\u2014aren't they so good?<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Oh, thank you, man. Anytime\u2014you're not that far away\u2014<\/p>\n<p>KB:No.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Yep.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014and you drive over here; we're doing it.<\/p>\n<p>Well, here's the great thing: the conversation we're having is a blessing,<\/p>\n<p>hopefully, to you. I hope you share it with your friends. But what you may<\/p>\n<p>not know, as a listener, is we can't do this without you giving financial<\/p>\n<p>support. And here's the deal: if you give, we're going to send you<\/p>\n<p>Dangerous Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Hey, any donation, we will send you their book.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You can give $5 or 5,000; it's really whatever God leads you to give. FamilyLifeToday.com: that's where you go to give; or give us a call: 800-358-6329. That's 800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and the word, TODAY. Isn't that great? We're going to send them your book.<\/p>\n<p>KB:That is amazing; praise God.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:That's awesome.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And hopefully, that'll encourage them to live dangerously.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife.com<\/p>\n"],"_edit_lock":["1738085803:47000"],"_edit_last":["47000"],"theme_header_position":["Sticky"],"post_header_is_sticky":["default"],"is_header_overlay":["0"],"episode_type":["audio"],"date_recorded":["2025-01-28 04:08:17"],"enclosure":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/5240c30c-c63c-4ec0-956f-b261010c4584\/audio.mp3"],"_seopress_redirections_type":["301"],"_seopress_redirections_logged_status":["both"],"_seopress_analysis_target_kw":[""],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-311991.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-311991.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: 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there a masculinity crisis? Podcasters, Kevin \"KB\" Burgess and Ameen Hudson, explore manhood, toxic masculinity, and how to raise godly sons.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>Learn more about <a href=\"https:\/\/whoiskb.com\/\">KB on his website<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/ameen_hga\">Follow Ameen Hudson on Instagram<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/sale\/group-studies-sale\/\">Save 25% on all small group materials at the FamilyLife online shop<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-01-28.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>Is There a Masculinity Crisis Today?<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Kevin \u201cKB\u201d Burgess and Ameen Hudson<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Dangerous Jesus (Day 2 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:January 28, 2025<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We've led a lot of small groups over the years, but one of the frustrations is figuring out: \u201cWhat to use?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u201cWhat's our content going to be?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:That's one of the things we do: we help you with great resources to lead a small group. Right now, those resources are 25 percent off. You can get the new Art of Marriage\u00ae if you want; you can get our Vertical Marriage\u00ae; you can get Love Like You Mean It\u00ae. There's all kinds of great small group resources. They're really easy because it\u2019s sort of plug-and-play: you put them in, and we give you a workbook; you have discussion questions. God meets couples in your home, or in your basement, or at a restaurant\u2014wherever you want to do it\u2014with these resources. That's one of the greatest things about being part of FamilyLife; and you can get them today, 25 percent off. Just go to FamilyLifeToday.com; pick whatever resource you want, and let God use that and use you to change marriages wherever you are.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And this sale lasts until the end of January, so you can check it out in the show notes or at FamilyLife.com\/Shop. You can start your small group off right this year.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Sometimes we can think that, just because we live in proximity with one another, we know each other. That's not true: you could still hide things; you can still not be honest; you can still put up a veneer and try to be<\/p>\n<p>Mr. or Mrs. Impressive around your spouse and not be, honestly, vulnerable. What I think has tremendously helped us is me going to my wife, and saying, \u201cI just want to be honest: \u2018This is how I feel.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:One of the hard parts of having adult kids is when they come to us and they kind of reveal some of the things that they wish had happened or they reveal\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:It's a wonderful conversation; it's just awesome.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I'm really glad that they come to us. But one of the things one of our sons said, when he was in his 20s\u2014he came to me, was doing something; I had prayed for him\u2014I don't know where he was going, maybe to Egypt, or I don't know; it was doing a mission trip. I laid my hands on him; I prayed for him. I looked at him, and said, \u201cHey, Cody, be careful.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>He stopped for a minute, and he had this look of \u201cUghhh!\u201d I said, \u201cWhat?!\u201d He goes, \u201cMom, when you say, \u2018Be careful,\u2019 that communicates to me you're worried, and I don't have it; you're afraid that I'm going to do something wrong; or something's going to happen to me; or \u2018Do I have what it takes?\u2019\u201d I was like, \u201cWell, what do you want me to say?\u201d He goes, \u201cI want you to say, \u2018I can't wait to see how God uses you, because you have what it takes.\u2019\u201d I had this feeling of: \u201cOh, how many times did I say: \u2018Hey, be careful,\u2019 \u2018Oh, be careful\u2019?\u201d But especially\u2014maybe, a man; I think to a woman, too\u2014\u201cBe careful,\u201d says, \u201cI don't know if you can do it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u201cDon't take risks.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cDon't take risks.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u201cDon't take risks.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>KB Burgess and Ameen Hudson are back in the studio.<\/p>\n<p>KB:I love it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And again, we're talking Dangerous Jesus. The title tells you we are supposed to live dangerously, because Jesus is sort of is dangerous if you follow Him.<\/p>\n<p>And you\u2019ve got kids.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Yeah, they're both married; both have kids; so maybe, you can relate to that. But I bet you guys\u2014we know your story; you've been on before\u2014the things that change and shape us are the things that, sometimes, are dangerous.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Yeah, yeah, yeah; true; absolutely. Yes, I have a lot of kids; at least, it\u2019s what it feels like. I have three, but it feels like a lot.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2014particularly, with my boys\u2014am trying to get them accustomed to feeling that moment, where everything about you, biologically, is saying: \u201cStop, bro; this is too hard. Go home. It's much easier to go grab an iPad upstairs and start playing Roblox. Don't complete this run,\u201d \u201cDon't complete this pushup,\u201d \u201cDon't complete this task,\u201d that has been laid. When that feeling arises, I'm trying to push them to feel it, acknowledge it, and go anyways.<\/p>\n<p>Because if that happens, a muscle will begin to emerge. You will start to strengthen a faith muscle in your soul, as it were, that prepares you for this world.<\/p>\n<p>I try to teach them to make their days matter; so what I'll say at the end of the day is: \u201cDid today matter?\u201d \u201cWas there something you did today\u201d\u2014especially, on their off days\u2014\"that means something for the rest of your life?\u201d or \u201c\u2026the rest of your week?\u201d \u201cDid you read anything?\u201d \u201cDid you learn anything?\u201d \u201cDid you fix anything?\u201d \u201cDid you attempt anything?\u201d I don't care if it's something trivial, like, \u201cDaddy, there's this part of this game that I have been trying to beat for six months; and I finally beat it.\u201d Even that I see as a small grace of: \u201cYou're getting a rep to do something difficult; make your day matter, and try to attempt something hard.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Okay; but KB, people are going to push back, like, \u201cOh, now, you've created a performance-oriented situation.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>KB:Sure, sure, sure; yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:But you're not; you don't want to do that.<\/p>\n<p>KB:For sure. I think that a big part of this life is effort, failure, and grace. This is a\u2014when you look at what Paul says to Timothy\u2014he says, \u201cTrain yourself for godliness.\u201d Now, don't miss this; because oftentimes, we're waiting to be made godly by God. We're like, \u201cI'm just going to be in the right place and then I'm going to wake up godly.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u201cI'm just going to pray for godliness, and God is just going to download it into me.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>KB:That\u2019s right. I\u2019m going to pray: \u201cLord\/God, just give me patience.\u201d You should be praying that; because once it hits,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u2014God gave it to you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And in some ways, it is imputed.<\/p>\n<p>KB:That's right; that's right; that's right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You are made in Christ; you are righteous.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Absolutely; correct. However, the means by which you sort of put yourself in the flow of God's good gifts, that He gives us in sanctification, includes your effort. Dallas Willard said it best; he said that, \u201cGrace is opposed to earning; it is not opposed to effort.\u201d One of the challenges that we might have is trying to balance out that kind of: \u201cI don't want them to think that their whole life is based on what they do\u201d; and we don't want to create this works-based parenting.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cYou have my love, my affection, my approval, whether you do great or not. And when you fail, you'll get even more of me. When you fall, I will be closer to you than when you're succeeding; because Daddy knows failure. However, if you are to make a lasting difference in this life, I have to balance that kind of concern for not wanting you to become too consumed by the doing. But at the same time, I want to recognize that God lays out a work for you to walk into\u2014'a work,\u2019 this is what Ephesians 2 says\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014training.<\/p>\n<p>KB: \u2014\"and then, there's a training in it. These things free you up.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think that, for me, with my boys, it's a delicate balance. I want to have this sort of triune approach, where:<\/p>\n<p>There is a piece that does include your effort.<\/p>\n<p>There is a piece that includes the grace of God, which is a supernatural reality that God gives us that you cannot work for; He provides it; it is His.<\/p>\n<p>And then, there is this mercy\/forgiveness nearness\/restoration for when you fall.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That's good.<\/p>\n<p>KB:These things work together to create a realistic, mature kind of parenting that prepares our kids for the real world.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:It's interesting\u2014I read a book, years ago, by John Ortberg\u2014If You Want to Walk on Water, You Got to Get Out of the Boat. You ever heard of that book?<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Whoo!<\/p>\n<p>KB:No, but that's a great book quote.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:It's, obviously, Matthew 14: the Peter walking-on-water story. But one of the things I remember him saying in this book was\u2014when you're a dad, and you're in the swimming pool; and you've got a four-year-old, five-year-old, six-year-old, whatever, on the edge of the pool; and you're saying, \u201cJump,\u201d and you got your hands out; maybe, they're three; they can't swim yet, but they know you can catch them\u2014he says, \u201cYou watch that kid. He walks up\u2014and he tiptoes up, and you can see there's this battle going on in his brain: \u2018Fear or faith?\u2019: \u2018Dad's there; he's got his hands out. I've never done this before, I think he\u2019ll catch me,\u2019\u2014but I think, then, there's the water; and he's never done it; so he backs up.\u201d He's like: \u201cThat's the Christian walk: fear or faith.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I'll never forget\u2014John said in the book\u2014he said, \u201cIf he never jumps\/if he's too afraid to jump,\u201d\u2014and some kids do; they walk away, and you're like, \u201cHey,\u201d\u2014he goes, \u201cHe may begin to think, \u2018 I'm sort of not a risk-taking kid; that's who I am.\u2019 But if he does jump, he finds out Dad's there\u2014\u2018Dad will catch me,\u2019\u2014that's that leap of faith.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But when he's in the air, it's still like\u2014and then, he finds out\u2014it's what you started with: our son was saying, \u201cDon't encourage me as I walk out, as a kid, who never takes the jump. Encourage me: \u2018You can take the jump, and you've got it; and there's a God out there who\u2019s going to walk with you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So my question to you guys is: \u201cHow do you keep this energy\/passion you walk in here with every time? You are water-walkers. At least, you come across that way; and I'm like, \u201cOkay, that doesn't just happen; there's training. There's stuff going on behind the scenes that nobody sees, because results are always in public of what we do in private.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>KB: Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You don't become dangerous unless you've been\u2014and you know the Father, who's in the water\u2014who will catch you.<\/p>\n<p>KB:That is right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:But also, you've had some practice jumping.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Absolutely; absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen: I think that, for me, a big part of it is community. One of the means by which God keeps me is through His children and my community of brothers and sisters, who are around me; they fuel me. I think the Bible makes it clear we confess our sins one to another so that our heart may not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin: \u201cEncourage one another daily as you see the day approaching.\u201d Those are the things that keep me going.<\/p>\n<p>It's almost like\u2014again, you're in a professional sports arena\u2014you know how much players inspire other players to go out there. The locker room is important, right? Because in the locker room, I'm giving\u2014if we're in there, firing each other up\u2014and then, we're like, \u201cWe're going to go out on this field together,\u201d then that's where the energy comes. \u201cTake the mountain\u201d; the energy comes. I can't go out and beat 11 people in the field by myself\u2014it doesn't matter how good I am; I can't\u2014but if I have a team with me, they are going to inspire me: \u201cI'm going out here; you're going out here. We're all going out here together.\u201d So a big part\u2014just one piece; I'll let KB bring some more\u2014is, for me, is the community.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:So dangerous friendship.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u2014which is a chapter in the book.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Yeah, there is; absolutely, and one of my favorites. \u201cDangerous Joy\u201d and \u201cDangerous Friendship\u201d are my two favorite chapters in the book; because, first of all, God exists as a community of friends: the Father, Son, and the Spirit. They embody everything that we would want to have in the friendship with the people who are around us, where we rejoice in one another; we work together; we accomplish things as a unit. There's this triune reality that we see in John 17, that Jesus, in the high priestly prayer says, \u201cFather, the unity that We have, the oneness that We have, might that exist in Your people who are coming behind the message that these disciples are preaching. May it exist, triune unity, in the unity of the church.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>We accomplish what we do in this world via us being linked together with one another. Intentionally thinking about how my friendship with Ameen might help him love Jesus more is very much connected to the entire flourishing of my life. When we talked about this on the car ride over here\u2014when we sin against each other, when we fail each other, when we misunderstand each other\u2014those moments, for many folks in my community, have become another opportunity for us to go deeper into our relationship, where we can say: \u201cBro, I didn't mean it that way,\u201d or \u201cIs that what I said? Bro, I am sorry; I repent. Will you forgive me?\u201d \u201cYes, I forgive you, brother. Let's work through the details, and let's start to restore what was lost.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>These moments strengthen our friendships instead of, as we see a practice in the world\u2014somebody brings the wrong energy to you; or you get one shot, and you're done\u2014that's not kingdom culture. Kingdom culture is us trying over, and over, and over, and over again. And with every single sort of turning of the page, you get a more prolific story that, the reconciliation that we received in Jesus, we have that with one another. And there's these examples of it, even when we make mistakes with one another. I'm a part of a community that's 20 years strong, of brothers and sisters, who have been trying to embody the life of Christ in the city. And that has largely been fueled by the ways in which we have embodied Jesus for each other.<\/p>\n<p>We don't think of ourselves that way, like, \u201cMan, wherever we go, man, we are just fire.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:No, we don't; not at all.<\/p>\n<p>KB:But I'll tell you: if whatever you all are experiencing is definitely connected<\/p>\n<p>to the fact that we are a burning fire filled with many logs, and I am just<\/p>\n<p>one log in the fire.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:That's true.<\/p>\n<p>KB:And once the fire starts to sort of move away from me, and my log starts<\/p>\n<p>to go dim a little bit, there are leaders, and counselors, and pastors who<\/p>\n<p>can help move things around to get the embers to make sure that we stay<\/p>\n<p>connected and continue to burn. That is what has kept us.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Honestly, I agree. You two, together, are inspiring. I think everybody longs for that. So talk to the listener, who\u2019s like, \u201cI want that; I want that. I don't even know how to go about getting that,\u201d\u2014especially men\u2014women\/we, it's a little easier for us maybe; but I don't know if it is.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Hey, Babe, don't be putting us men down.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Yes, but there is something there.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I'm just talking to my friends, who are saying, \u201cI want my husband to have more than just me as a friend.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>KB:Yes, I've actually heard that there's some data that supports that, that particularly you see widowers when a husband loses his wife, man, the world kind of starts crumbling. Oftentimes, he'll remarry; or things just start to just kind of fall apart. But for women, oftentimes, when they lose their husbands, they still kind of can thrive in friendships. A lot of those men would say their best friend is their wife. Those wives have other friends, outside of their husband.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:That's healthier.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Yes. I think that the first thing that I would say is that: \u201cIf you want deep relationship\/deep friendships that spur you on to deeper relationship with Christ, then you need to be the friend that you want to see.\u201d This is what you see in dating shows or dating apps\u2014you're interviewing someone to see if they're the right person for you\u2014all of life is you trying to check the boxes: \u201cLet me try to see if you even come with the energy that's going to be compatible with what I'm trying to do; where I'm trying to go: \u2018I'm not going to have you.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>What if it wasn't, first, about: \u201cIf your resume is good to be accepted in my friendship job\u201d? What if it was the other way around, where I just want to be a good friend to you?\u2014\"Let me listen to you.\u201d Someone said before that listening is so close to loving that you can't really tell the difference; it feels like the same thing. C.S. Lewis talked about: how humility is not the guy who sits in the corner, and doesn't say nothing to nobody, and just walks around with his head down; you can have quiet, prideful people.<\/p>\n<p>But humility is often that person who\u2019s just interested in you: \u201cWhat was your day like?\u201d \u201cThat must've been hard,\u201d \u201cWhat are the kinds of things you're trying to accomplish?\u201d And then, when I leave, and you say, \u201cHey, pray for me about \u2018X\u2019\u201d; I go home and pray for you about \u201cX\u201d; then, I follow up on it a week later. Even something as small as that\u2014let's be honest\u2014\u201cWe are going to pray for you, brother\u201d; then, I never ask you:\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Yeah, that's true.<\/p>\n<p>KB:\u2014\"Did God do anything about the thing I prayed?\u201d I prayed about it,<\/p>\n<p>and that thing was out of my mind. We feel loved when people show that<\/p>\n<p>they want to be good friends to us, and that creates good friends for us.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Sam Alberry\u2014one of his best friends is Ray Ortlund\u2014<\/p>\n<p>KB:I love Ray.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014and Ray says\u2014was it his father that used to say? Or grandfather used to say?\u2014\u201cInstead of walking into a room, and saying, \u2018Here I am\u2019\u2019; he said, \u201cYou should walk in the room, and say, \u2018There you are.\u2019\u201d So that I'm asking you\u2014I'm looking into you\u2014\u201cThere you are; I've been looking for you.\u201d You're asking\u2014exactly what you're saying, KB\u2014you're asking them questions: \u201cHow are you doing?\u201d \u201c What's going on?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Okay, I want to apply this to marriage.<\/p>\n<p>KB:That's amazing.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Come on with it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I hear you; I love it.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Tread lightly<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Dangerous Jesus: dangerous marriage. It's like marriage gets hard. She is<\/p>\n<p>my best friend. And all the things you just said about men in my life\u2014I<\/p>\n<p>want that\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You have that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014but I want to do it with Ann as well, but marriage gets hard.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Oh, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And we even say, at FamilyLife: \u201cIf you don't work at oneness, you will drift toward isolation. It's the natural drift.\u201d So this is hard; walk us there: \u201cHow<\/p>\n<p>do you guys apply this in your own marriages?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>KB:I just want to give\u2014I\u2019ll just say another Ray Ortlund quote\u2014that I think applies to this.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Okay, good.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Ray Ortlund said that: \u201cYou, essentially, have two options in relationships.\u201d He says, \u201cYou can either be impressive or you can be known; you can't have both.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Whoa.<\/p>\n<p>KB:If you are going to choose to be known\u2014and this is what my wife and I have been trying to make this the culture of our relationship\u2014that I, first, am not trying to be this well-put together [image]: \u201cI'm never in need; I have all the answers. The problem has got to be you, because it can't be me; I'm way too smart for that.\u201d I need to be able to relate to my wife in a way that does show that she can trust me, that I have a vision of where we're going, to some degree; but I'm still very much broken and in need of a Savior.<\/p>\n<p>I have found that, if the cross\u2014and our trying to beat each other to the cross in repentance; beat each other to the cross, in Him being the impressive One, and us being the needy ones\u2014I have found that, as I have prioritized us knowing each other for who we actually are, not who we pretend to be, it has created this kind of intimacy that allows us to feel safe with one another. She can say, \u201cI know him\u201d; l and I can say, \u201cI know her.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Because it really isn't our performance; it really isn't us trying to keep up a veneer. Especially for folks\u2014if you're church people\u2014I cannot stress how toxic it is for our children. When you get to church on Sunday, and you all were fighting all the way there; then you stepped foot into the lobby, and all of a sudden, you are a St. Andrew. And now, it's: \u201cHallelujah,\u201d \u201cPraise God,\u201d\u2014raising your hands with the same hands that you raised against your children in absolute anger and wrath. These things show\u2014it creates this sort of dualistic impressive Christianity\u2014we call it \u201cPlastic Christianity.\u201d We want to integrate kind of a vulnerable kind of Christianity that is comfortable with Jesus being the One\u2014who is the impressive, the celebrity, the One who\u2019s got it all together\u2014and we keep returning to Him. We find, in doing so, Jesus brings us together.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah; Ameen, you've got a baby in the house.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:I do; yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:So that makes marriage awesome; but also, \u201cWhoa!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Yes, it makes it hard. It's a new season for me and my wife. Before, it's you all with one another\u2014so you get to really focus on you and your spouse\u2014it's just your marriage. But now, when you have another person\u2014and babies are very needy, as we know\u2014<\/p>\n<p>KB:\u2014very demanding.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u2014very demanding; he's like, \u201cI want my milk, and I want it now!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And you don't necessarily get the attention from your wife that you used to get.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:No, no, no, no, no, no; that's been hard. That's been a season that I think that we've been in. But you know what? One of the things that has happened is: I was\u2014as KB said, the vulnerability piece is important in marriage\u2014because if my wife is my good friend\/my best friend, I cannot just be Mr. Christian Superman; because that's not who I really am. She knows that. I think that, sometimes, we can think that, just because we live in proximity with one another, we know each other; that's not true. And I had to be\u2014<\/p>\n<p>KB:Keep cooking.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:No, but it's true. I think that we think, \u201cWell, we live together; we do life every day together. We're living under the same roof; that means we know each other.\u201d No, it doesn't\u2014you could still hide things; you can still not be honest; you can still put up a veneer and try to be Mr. or Mrs. Impressive around your spouse\u2014and not be, honestly, vulnerable.<\/p>\n<p>I think that what has actually helped us through\u2014what you've just said is exactly what has been happening\u2014\u201cMan, I feel like I'm on the back burner;\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yes; been there.<\/p>\n<p>KB:\u2014\"and it doesn't feel good.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u2014it doesn't feel good.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>KB:\u201cI don\u2019t like it!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u201cI don\u2019t like it.\u201d Yeah, yeah; I would imagine. I thought about that; I'm like,<\/p>\n<p>\u201cMan, I feel this way with one kid. What's going to happen if we have<\/p>\n<p>another one; and then, another one?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But what I think has tremendously helped us is me going to my wife, and<\/p>\n<p>saying, \u201cI just want to be honest; this is how I feel\u2026I'm not saying that you<\/p>\n<p>are doing anything wrong. I understand, now, we have a child; and we<\/p>\n<p>have to give him our attention. He actually needs it; it's healthy for him to<\/p>\n<p>have it, but I'm struggling and this is how I feel.\u201d And then, she got to open<\/p>\n<p>up, and say, \u201cThank you for sharing that. This is how I feel\u2026\u201d And then, I<\/p>\n<p>got to say, \u201cOh, I get it; I see it,\u201d\u2014I didn't really understand how she felt\u2014<\/p>\n<p>like, \u201cI get it.\u201d [She said]: \u201cI have the same tension, and I feel like I do want<\/p>\n<p>to give you the attention; but then, [I\u2019m] torn between giving him attention;<\/p>\n<p>and then, this is what's been going on with me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:If you would've come to her, and said, \u201cWhy aren't you giving me\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u201cWhy?\u201d \u201cWhat?!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Then, she's got her defensives up.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:I had to get there. In the beginning, I felt that way; I felt like I'm angry: \u201cWhy am I not\u2026\u201d But then, we had a wonderful conversation\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Way to go.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u2014a few weeks ago one night; and we were just vulnerable with each other. I was like, \u201cBabe, I've been a little angry.\u201d I told her, \u201cI've been angry; I've been mad. And this is why\u2026It's not your fault, but this is how I felt.\u201d She was like, \u201cNo, I understand that. And this is how I feel\u2026\u201d I tell you: that has radically transformed our relationship, in this season, because of that.<\/p>\n<p>But it would not have happened if we were not vulnerable with one another. In the beginning, I wasn\u2019t; I was just keeping it to myself; I was like, \u201cI feel this way; I'm getting angry.\u201d I was like, \u201cI'm going to hold it. She's dealing with enough right now. I don't even know if she can handle if I tell her this.\u201d But it got to the point that I was like, \u201cNo, we need to talk about it\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014getting it in the light.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u2014and we need to get it in the light.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I\u2019m thinking, even when Preston and Jackie Perry were here a few weeks ago, she said something; I'm like, \u201cOh, this is so mind-blowing.\u201d Preston was saying, \u201cWhy aren't you submitting to me?\u201d This is when they were in early parts of their marriage. And she said, \u201cWhat I needed you to say is: \u2018What are you afraid of?\u2019\u201d It's exactly what you're saying, Ameen; you're getting to the heart of \u201cHere's what I'm feeling\u2026\u201d\u2014\"What are you afraid of?\u201d\u2014instead of\u2014\u201cWhy aren't you doing this?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Yes, yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cWhat's going on inside that's making you pull away?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Oh, yes. And then, the great thing about that is: once we got to actually hear where we were, it's like the anger went away. I was so much more gracious: \u201cI see you,\u201d \u201cI see where you are.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That's what she's longing for! \u201cDo you see me?\u201d And you\u2019re thinking that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yes, she wants to be seen; and you saw.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:It's a beautiful moment. But what I say is that vulnerability is what created that\u2014it couldn't be the mask; it couldn't be the veneer\u2014it had to be the real!<\/p>\n<p>KB: Yes, sir.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:That's how we got to where we are.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And again, we've been talking dangerous, dangerous, dangerous. It's the<\/p>\n<p>title of the book, [Dangerous Jesus]. Vulnerability is dangerous.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Oh, yes! And Jesus was vulnerable!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Scary.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen: I think that, when we think about vulnerability, we got to think about our Lord who was vulnerable. He took folks to the garden with Him. When He was praying in anguish, He actually turns to His disciples\u2014two of His disciples\u2014and He says, \u201cI am in great anguish.\u201d He literally says that to them: \u201cto the point of death.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>KB:He confesses to them death: \u201cThis feels like death.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:\u201cI am in great anguish.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u201cPlease pray for Me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:And then, they watch Him pray. That's vulnerability; this is Jesus doing it. Jesus has turned to His disciples, saying, \u201cHey, man, I am stressed! I am in anguish!\u201d And then, they get to see what He does with that anguish, though: He confesses it, and He goes to the Father with it. So Jesus has His inner circle of disciples, whom He brings with Him in His most vulnerable moment, confesses to them, \u201cI'm in anguish\u201d; and then, brings it to the Father. What makes us think that we can't be like that? Our Lord was a vulnerable Lord with His friends.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And when we go to that dangerous spot, and say, \u201cI'm going to be vulnerable,\u201d\u2014again, this is my opinion\u2014I don't think anybody runs away from that. They lean into it; it draws people.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Very true.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Nobody ran away from Jesus; they were like, \u201cHe needs me; He actually needs me.\u201d And your wife, or your husband\u2014if you go there\u2014your wife's probably going to go, \u201cI love you. That's why we're one,\u201d\u2014rather than\u2014\u201cDon't ever do that again.\u201d They're going to be like\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We've been married 44 years; and after 44 years, no one on the planet knows me the way Dave does.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:He knows\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014vice versa; the same way.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u2014my weaknesses, all of my faults, all of my sin; and we know each other, and he loves me. It's miraculous, and it is the gospel.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:When you can see all of your spouse\u2019s flaws, and you bug each other, and you let each other down\u2014and you still are loved\u2014that's what Jesus does to us; it\u2019s miraculous. A couple, together, following Jesus; now, that's dangerous.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:That\u2019s good. Come on, now.<\/p>\n<p>KB:Indeed; yes, indeed.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You guys\u2014aren't they so good?<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Oh, thank you, man. Anytime\u2014you're not that far away\u2014<\/p>\n<p>KB:No.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:Yep.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014and you drive over here; we're doing it.<\/p>\n<p>Well, here's the great thing: the conversation we're having is a blessing,<\/p>\n<p>hopefully, to you. I hope you share it with your friends. But what you may<\/p>\n<p>not know, as a listener, is we can't do this without you giving financial<\/p>\n<p>support. And here's the deal: if you give, we're going to send you<\/p>\n<p>Dangerous Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Hey, any donation, we will send you their book.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You can give $5 or 5,000; it's really whatever God leads you to give. FamilyLifeToday.com: that's where you go to give; or give us a call: 800-358-6329. That's 800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and the word, TODAY. Isn't that great? We're going to send them your book.<\/p>\n<p>KB:That is amazing; praise God.<\/p>\n<p>Ameen:That's awesome.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And hopefully, that'll encourage them to live dangerously.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife.com<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/311991","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=311991"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/311992"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=311991"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=311991"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=311991"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=311991"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=311991"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=311991"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}