{"id":311574,"date":"2025-01-08T03:51:26","date_gmt":"2025-01-08T08:51:26","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/the-journey-to-us-ron-nan-deal\/"},"modified":"2025-01-08T03:51:28","modified_gmt":"2025-01-08T08:51:28","slug":"the-journey-to-us-ron-nan-deal","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-journey-to-us-ron-nan-deal\/","title":{"rendered":"The Journey to Us: Ron &#038; Nan Deal"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>The journey to a healthy marriage can be tough to follow. Ron and Nan Deal help navigate the way through self-awareness, emotional regulation, and constructive communication.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>The journey to a healthy marriage can be tough to follow. Ron and Nan<a class=\"d-block py-2 read-more color-cyan small\" href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-journey-to-us-ron-nan-deal\/\" title=\"Read more: The Journey to Us: Ron &#038; Nan Deal\" >Read More &raquo;<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":311575,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/022336a6-de19-4a3e-8333-b24a0116497a\/audio.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:32:32","filesize":"29.82M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2082],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[3629,3300],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-311574","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-communication","cwp_profile-nan-deal","cwp_profile-ron-deal","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2025\/01\/image_2a6a40.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/311574\/the-journey-to-us-ron-nan-deal","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/311574\/the-journey-to-us-ron-nan-deal","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"yEdVG0Hnda\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-journey-to-us-ron-nan-deal\/\">The Journey to Us: Ron &#038; Nan Deal<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-journey-to-us-ron-nan-deal\/embed\/#?secret=yEdVG0Hnda\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;The Journey to Us: Ron &#038; Nan Deal&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"yEdVG0Hnda\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2025\/01\/image_2a6a40.jpg",1024,1024,true]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"The journey to a healthy marriage can be tough to follow. Ron and NanRead More &raquo;","meta_box":{"show_notes":"\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/rondeal.org\/\">Learn more about Ron Deal on his website<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylifeblended\/blended-families\/\">Learn more about Family Life Blended<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/january-2025\/mindful-marriage\/?cru_source=D000FLTD25&cru_medium=Icare&cru_campaign=January2025\">Receive Mindful Marriage for a gift of any amount<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/mindfulmarriage\">Take the Mindful Marriage Assessment<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/weekend-to-remember\/\">Register for Weekend to Remember<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-01-08.pdf","transcript_content":"\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nThe Journey to Us\r\n\r\nGuests:Ron and Nan Deal\r\n\r\nFrom the series:Mindful Marriage (Day 3 of 3)\r\n\r\nAir date:January 8, 2025\r\n\r\nAnn:I think one of my favorite moments and memories that I still have is\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:\u2014marrying me.\r\n\r\nAnn:Well, yeah; but actually, it was before that; because we went to a FamilyLife Weekend to Remember\u00ae conference. We had to write a love letter to each other.\r\n\r\nDave:Oh, yeah.\r\n\r\nAnn:Remember that?\r\n\r\nDave:We still have it,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn:We still have it.\r\n\r\nDave:\u201444 years later.\r\n\r\nAnn:And I remember reading that, crying; because when you're in a relationship with someone\u2014and even if you've been married for a while\u2014we don't always say the things that are important and that matter. There's something about getting away, taking time to focus on your marriage. It's just hard to do that in today's day and age, and culture; especially, if you have kids, it's hard!\r\n\r\nDave:And you may be even thinking, \u201cI couldn't write a love letter to my spouse right now\u201d; and that's why you need to go. Because Friday night\u2014sort of the walls start to come down\u2014Saturday, God starts to work in things you didn't know that you felt; you'll start feeling again.\r\n\r\nAnn:And maybe, your marriage is doing great; and you just need a little pick-me-up. But maybe, you're just struggling, thinking, \u201cI don't know if we're going to make it.\u201d Why wouldn't you come to this?\r\n\r\nDave:And I'd say, \u201cSign up today. You know why?\u201450 percent off.\r\n\r\nAnn:\u201450 percent!\r\n\r\nDave:Did you hear me?\u201450 percent off, which means you get half off on the registration for the Weekend. You don't want to miss that opportunity. So here's how you do it: \u201cGo to FamilyLifeToday.com, and click on the banner there, to sign up for any Weekend to Remember in any city in the country. You can go anywhere you want; they're all over the country.\r\n\r\nAnn:And let me just add: this could be a great gift you give to your kids, your grandkids, your friends, your neighbor, a coworker. This could be an incredible gift.\r\n\r\nDave:And this registration\u201450 percent off\u2014goes until January 20. So again, it's FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call us at 800-358-6329. That's 800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and the word, TODAY.\r\n\r\nNan:\u201cWhat's one of the fruits of the Spirit I can do right now? Is it patience? Is it self-control with my mouth?\u201d I also find that, if I can just pray in the moment for what God can do in me and show me; because sometimes, I'm not seeing it. I need to see that truth, that I'm going to pick up a fruit of the Spirit.\r\n\r\nAnn:Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.\r\n\r\nDave:And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today!\r\n\r\nAnn:We have had a fun few days talking to Ron and Nan Deal. They have a new book out; and it has been very convicting, challenging, wonderful.\r\n\r\nDave:I feel like we've been about our marriage\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn:Me, too.\r\n\r\nDave:\u2014even though we're talking about your marriage.\r\n\r\nAnn:Me, too. \r\n\r\nDave:I honestly think most our listeners are feeling the same thing. You are describing cycles: stuck-ness in our us-ness because of you-ness and me-ness.\r\n\r\nAnn:It's true. If you haven't listened to the previous two episodes with them, go back; listen to those, because they're so helpful. You're going to identify with all of this. I think there's not a person on the planet who does not need to be reminded of who they are in Christ; but also, our brokenness from the past affects who we are today. And in our relationships, it affects us. \r\n\r\nWe've been talking a lot about what this looks like in marriage: The Mindful Marriage. What does \u201cmindful\u201d mean? Why is it mindful?\r\n\r\nRon:Let me just read from the book: \r\n\r\nMindfulness is this idea that you're very aware of what's going on. Sometimes, you'll say, \u201cI'm mindful of my children and what's going on with their day.\u201d So you're bearing in mind something about their life. \r\n\r\nWe're using mindfulness to describe being very aware of myself, and what's going on with me, in the midst of this marriage or our us-ness that I'm contributing to. Being mindful involves fully attending to what you are feeling, what you do with those feelings, and the impact they have on your marital us. \r\n\r\nI think we know the pieces. One of the things this material has taught us is it's putting the pieces together in a way that actually moves you from the worst of who you are\u2014those moments, where you just sort of totally get discombobulated and lose yourself\u2014that\u2019s just terrible!\r\n\r\nDave:That never happens in our marriage. \r\n\r\nRon:We all do it; it's the human experience.\r\n\r\nAnn:\u2014constantly.\r\n\r\nRon:\u201cSo how do I move away from that into the fruit of the Spirit, into being more like Christ?\u201d And that's the journey. Ultimately, this is all about discipleship more than it's about marriage; and that's why it's a challenge, because it gets to the core of who we are.\r\n\r\nAnn:So Ron and Nan, let's say I am working on this. I am with Jesus. I'm realizing some of my pain from the past is definitely affecting our marriage. I'm into this\u2014maybe, I'm getting therapy; I'm getting help\u2014but my spouse doesn't want to have anything to do with this; maybe, they're not a believer; maybe, they think this is just a bunch of junk\u2014but their actions are affecting our entire family, which then, let's say that triggers me. \r\n\r\nIt makes me get so angry, resentful: \u201cHow do we not fall into that rut again?\u2014because that\u2019s our rut: \u201cI'm working on it; you're doing nothing.\u201d Is there a way that we can solve this? Or how do I not [react] when he gets like that? Let's say he triggers me by being resentful\u2014like: \u201cOh, your mom's saying all this junk again,\u201d \u201cOh, she's getting into the psychotherapy stuff.\u201d How do we not fall into that rut? It just pulls us right in, and we get triggered by it.\r\n\r\nRon:Okay, so the book\u2014\r\n\r\nNan:Well, first, let me say that is a hard space to be in for anybody, any relationship. And man, my heart goes out to that person, who's listening, that's there.\r\n\r\nAnn:For sure.\r\n\r\nDave:And that's real.\r\n\r\nNan:It's so real.\r\n\r\nDave:And if you don't navigate it well, you're going to get divorced.\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nRon:Yeah, being triggered never stops. We've just decided: \u201cThis side of heaven, it's never going to stop.\u201d We're a whole lot better than we used to be, and we still get triggered; and we trigger one another. Those spaces still continue. \r\n\r\nWe use the word, \u201cpain,\u201d\u2014but it's really any disappointment, or hurt, or feeling unloved, feeling unsafe\u2014those core issues to who we are. Whenever any of that gets tapped, you get triggered; it's just the human experience. It's learning to put on self-control in the midst of that pain; that is the hard part. \r\n\r\nIn a way, having a spouse who's not joining you in a growing process, gives you lots of opportunity to practice. Now, that's not\u2014we say that tongue in cheek\u2014but it it's true as well. I mean, you have lots of opportunity to practice managing you, because you're feeling things from the other person that tap into your pain. And so there's going to be that. \r\n\r\nWhat you can't do is say: \u201cSo how do I also figure out how to change them?\u201d As soon as you jump out of your lane\u2014as Nan puts it: \u201cStay in your lane,\u201d\u2014as soon as you jump out of your lane, you've now gone into blame, shame, control, or escape.\r\n\r\nAnn:Oh! We all try to change our spouse.\r\n\r\nRon:Yeah, absolutely. And here's the thing\u2014I believe this\u2014you end up changing your us-ness; that's the thing between you. By changing you, you change you; and it will change the dance. If you've been doing the rumba, as a couple, for a really long time, the minute you start doing the waltz\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn:\u2014the ugly rumba.\r\n\r\n,\r\n\r\nRon:The ugly\u2014yeah, the rumble rumba\u2014as soon as you start doing the waltz, rumba steps don't make sense. It sort of requires the other person to make some adjustment. It doesn't mean they're going to be the person you've always dreamed they would be for you; it just means they can't continue doing the rumba. It just doesn't even make sense anymore. It will activate some measure of change within the relationship and, perhaps, within the other person. But you don't get to control where that goes or what it looks like. The point is: as long as you keep doing the rumba, you'll just keep doing the rumba as a couple; nothing changes at that point. \r\n\r\nLet me stop for a minute. Just yesterday, I was reading Matthew 26. It's Jesus being arrested; Jesus in the garden; Jesus before Pilate; Jesus, on and on, all the way up until the cross. I was watching all the other people, going on around Him: \u201cWhat are they doing?\u201d Jesus says to Peter, \u201cYou're going to deny Me.\u201d Think about that for a second\u2014if Jesus said to you, \u201cDude, by the end of the day, you're going to blow it,\u201d\u2014you'd be like, \u201cNo, no, no, no, no, no; I'm on guard. I'm not making that happen.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn:\u2014\u201cespecially, now that I'm aware.\u201d\r\n\r\nRon:Exactly. So how is it that, by the end of the day, he does the exact thing?\r\n\r\nWell, watch what happens: they start accusing him: \u201cOh, you were with this guy\u201d; his level of threat is going up\u2014the pain, if we could use that word in his life\u2014is escalating rapidly. He got triggered; he went into fight, flight, freeze, control. He just escaped in denial; he got out of that whole thing. He was reacting in that moment\u2014he was not in his right mind\u2014he was not responding.\r\n\r\nAnn:And before that, he was in the fight mode because he chopped off the ear.\r\n\r\nRon:So he does fight and flight in one chapter. Fascinating: total dysregulation. What about the other disciples? \r\n\r\nNan:\u2014Control: \u201cI'm going to take control of the situation.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn:Yes.\r\n\r\nRon:The other disciples fall asleep over and over again; they're escaping into sleep. Jesus is saying, \u201cStay alert.\u201d And they're like, \u201cYeah, we're out.\u201d Think about that for a second. But then, there's Jesus\u2014through all of it\u2014He stays calm and self-regulated. When Peter's pulling out the sword, He's going, \u201cWhoa, whoa, whoa; back in the sheath. No, we're not doing that; that's not what we're about.\u201d He doesn't get caught up in the moment. He doesn't get triggered because they're triggered; He is totally within Himself. \r\n\r\nThis is the journey for a partner listening: \u201cThis is your task to work on you so much that, even though there's chaos going on around you\u2014accusations\u2014Jesus got accusations in that chapter from people: \u201cAre You sure?\u201d \u201c Why don't You stand up for yourself?\u201d\u2014all of it. He stays in self-control.\r\n\r\nAnn:As you were saying all that, I'm thinking of moms, of young children, of teenagers. You talk about constantly being dysregulated and triggered\u2014\r\n\r\nRon:That's right.\r\n\r\nAnn:\u2014by your kids all day long. It's in every area: this can work.\r\n\r\nRon:The first task of a parent is to be self-regulating in the midst of a dysregulated kid. That's our first task, so we don't end up just reacting to their reactions; that\u2019s when we do things that we really regret. See, this is the human experience\u2014so whether it's a child or whether it's a hard relationship\u2014that's still who we're called to be.\r\n\r\nDave:So in some ways, you're saying, \u201cBe selfish\u201d; what I mean by that is\u2014\r\n\r\nRon:\u2014in a good way. \r\n\r\nDave:I mean, we don't want to be selfish, ever; we want to be selfless. But in some ways, we have to look to ourselves, and focus on me for a minute, to get me regulated so I can be better for us.\r\n\r\nRon: \u201cDo your work.\u201d\r\n\r\nNan:Exactly.\r\n\r\nAnn:So what does that look like? We've talked about it for the last two days; but let's go through specifically: \u201cIf you are being triggered by a child, by a spouse\u2014if you're being dysregulated, and you can find yourself falling into the old patterns that you've always done, the old dance\u2014walk us through: \u2018What do I need to do right then?\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:I mean, if you want, you can use me. \r\n\r\nRon:Okay. \r\n\r\nDave:We did the assessment. If you don't know what I'm talking about, go to: FamilyLife.com\/MindfulMarriage. There's an assessment there that can help you see what you do when you're dysregulated. \r\n\r\nYeah, I did it. My biggest one [coping reaction] is probably escape, but I have blame-escape: \u201cIt's not my fault; it's your fault,\u201d \u201cIf I hadn't married you\u2026\u201d \u201cIf I\u2026\u201d\u2014whatever the way you just responded is\u2014\u201cIt's your fault.\u201d It's never my fault\u2014you talk about pride\u2014there's pride. I'm not humble enough to even look in the mirror, and go, \u201cNo, I\u2019m\u2026\u201d \r\n\r\nAnd then, because of that\u2014again, I'm making connections that, maybe, aren't true\u2014but I think, \u201cBecause of that, I escape.\u201d I escaped into work\u2014I'm a performer; I've been given some gifts, so I go use them: stand on a stage and play a guitar, or preach, or sports\u2014a lot of what you did, Ron. I would run from Ann in our marriage, even my boys, into another world that: \u201cYou know what? Felt great!\u201d; never even thought about us. But I could feel it as I pulled back into the driveway: \u201cHere we go.\u201d\r\n\r\nRon:Okay, so let's chase the breadcrumbs: \u201cYou know what you do when you get triggered. What's the pain behind being triggered?\u201d You just sort of gave a clue there, when you said, \u201cIn one space, I feel really great about who I am, and what's happening; and I get to excel, and I\u2019m in my element.\u201d\r\n\r\nNan:I'm hearing, \u201cadequacy.\u201d\r\n\r\nRon:There you go. \u201cSo what's the pain behind that? What's the thing you don't have that you sort of want to escape from?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:I mean, I don't feel worthy; I don't feel seen. Again, you can connect it to: Dad walking out; brother dying when I was seven; divorced [parents]; alcohol [used by parents], all that.\r\n\r\nRon:Worthy is one of those elements of: \u201cI don't feel loved.\u201d That's really one of the things that helps us to feel like we're important, and special, and loved; it's connected there.\r\n\r\nDave:And I did it my whole life; I mean, Ann knows. I was raised by a single mom; my brother dies, so it's just the two of us. I was never home; I don't want to be home. Out there\u2014man, I'm making 3-pointers; and I'm singing, and girls are going, \u201cWow!\u201d\u2014and I walk in my house, and my mom's drinking. There's nobody there: \u201cI'll see you later!\u201d I get in the car, and I drive away again; I didn't want to be there\u2014escape.\r\n\r\nRon:Here's what you do: the next time you have a moment, where you feel like Ann is not prioritizing you, not seeing you; and you're just feeling sort of alone\u2014you start saying, out loud, the four steps. \r\n\r\nBy the way, in The Mindful Marriage book, people are going to do exercises. You're going to pinpoint your pain; what you do with it; and what the truth is. You're going to learn this process for yourself\u2014not for us, not Dave's story, not Ron's story\u2014but your story. That's really important, because everybody's story is different. \r\n\r\nSo Step 1 is: \u201cSay what you feel.\u201d You're going to say it out loud. For you, it would be a comment of: \u201cI'm feeling\u201d\u2014and you can use the word\u2014\u201cinadequate\u201d; \u201cI'm feeling not seen\u201d; \u201cI'm feeling unworthy.\u201d\r\n\r\nNan:\u2014\u201cunloved,\u201d \u201cunworthy.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn:Let's say you're driving into the driveway\u2014let's put it into action.\r\n\r\nRon:You feel that anxiety come on: \u201cHere it goes. I got to walk in and face something there.\u201d Say it out loud: \u201cWhat's Step 1?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:\u201cI feel not enough: I won't be the husband she wants or the dad she needs. She'll be disappointed in how I come in the house.\u201d\r\n\r\nRon:Very good. \r\n\r\nNumber 2 is: \u201cSay what you usually do with that: \u2018And what I usually do is\u2026\u2019 \r\n\r\nDave:\u201cI will turn on the TV and watch sports,\u201d\u2014escape.\r\n\r\nRon:\u2014escape into TV; or \u201cEscape into an activity that gets me out of that \r\n\r\nmoment.\u201d \r\n\r\nDave:I might grab my guitar, close the door, and play a song.\r\n\r\nRon:\u201cGo to a place, where I do feel worthy.\u201d\r\n\r\nNan:\u201cGet in the car and go perform somewhere else.\u201d\r\n\r\nRon:Yeah; okay, so let's just pause for a second. Here\u2019s the reflection that Nan and I have had, about this process: once you know Steps 1 and 2\u2014this is your old self; this is the thing that is so automatic in your brain: you never think about it; you never choose it. You never say, \u201cYou know what? I think I'm going to escape into TV right now, because I'm feeling inadequate\u201d; it is neurological in your body. \r\n\r\nWhat's so humbling about this is that you go, \u201cBut I'm an educated, learned person. I'm a pretty sophisticated guy. I've got degrees, and I know better than that.\u201d Now, if you sat me down, and said, \u201cNow, is this God's truth for your life?\u201d You'd say, \u201cNo, that's stupid. I don't want to live that way.\u201d And yet, you will do it every time you feel that pain; because it is in you. This is why, in Romans 7, Paul says, \u201cWhy do I keep on doing the things I don't want to do?\u201d There is reactivity in him\u2014he's not thinking\u2014it just happens. That's Steps 1 and 2; there's not much hope in 1 and 2, which is why we need 3 and 4.\r\n\r\nAnn:Let me go to my 1 and 2 to see how\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:Yeah; let's go to hers!\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014that bounces off of each other. \r\n\r\nRon:Yeah! Oh, good. \r\n\r\nNan:\u2014your us-ness. \r\n\r\nAnn:Let's say Dave walks in the door, and he turns on the TV. There's three kids in the house: five, three, and a newborn.\r\n\r\nRon:Say your pain: \u201cWhat do I feel?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn:I am so angry, first of all. I'm so angry because\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:\u2014you're alone. \r\n\r\nAnn:That would be it: \u201cI am alone.\u201d But I would blame; I would shift into my \r\n\r\nblame, normally, and say, \u201cI do everything!\u201d\r\n\r\nNan:But stay with your feelings.\r\n\r\nAnn:Yeah, I know. I'm saying this is where\u2014this is how I would fall back into my old rut\u2014\"I do everything,\u201d \u201cHe doesn't see me.\u201d But if it was feelings: \u201cI'm not loved,\u201d \u201cI feel unloved,\u201d \u201cI feel not worthy.\u201d\r\n\r\nRon:Okay, I'm going to help you refine that;\u2014 \r\n\r\nDave:\u2014\u201c\u2026not important.\u201d \r\n\r\nRon:\u2014because in the book, you learn that anger\u2014yes, it's a painful feeling\u2014but it's actually something you do. Shame is something you feel, but it's something you do to yourself. Anger is something you do to somebody else; it's a form of\/in the blame category. There's a number of ways we do these things. \r\n\r\nLet me just encourage you: \u201cI blame,\u201d \u201cI criticize,\u201d and \u201cI get angry,\u201d\u2014that's what you do\u2014that's Step 2. Step 1 is: \u201cI feel unloved.\u201d So just say those fresh.\r\n\r\nAnn:Yeah; \u201cI feel totally unloved.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:She added: \u201ctotally\u2014not just a little\u2014completely unloved.\u201d\r\n\r\n.\r\n\r\nRon:And what I typically do\u2014by the way\u2014Rule 1 is: \u201cDon't help your spouse do their steps.\u201d \r\n\r\nNan:Yes, that's right. \r\n\r\nRon:Because that dysregulates the process. So say that again: \u201cI feel unloved,\u201d and \u201cHere here's what I do with it\u2026\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn:\u201cI feel totally unloved,\u201d and \u201cHere's what I do with it: I blame and I control.\u201d\r\n\r\nRon:Okay. Alright, so we got Steps 1 and 2 for both of you.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nStep 3 is: \u201cGod's capital \u2018T\u2019 truth that speaks directly to the pain in Step 1.\u201d This is where it takes a little work. We guide people, in the book, through the process of saying: \u201cSo from God's point of view, and objectively: \u2018What is really true?\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n\u201cAnn, is it true that I'm inadequate?\u201d\u2014Dave. \r\n\r\n\u201cIs it true that I'm unloved, totally unloved? That if I stop and think about Dave, and his walk with me, and our us-ness; does he love me? It's just that, in this moment, I don't feel loved.\u201d \r\n\r\nSo there's this stepping back from it, to say, \u201cIn this moment, I don't feel it. But if I look at the grand scope of our life, I definitely can see that [truth].\u201d \r\n\r\nAnd it's not just about him. This is more about you\u2014separate and apart, from what Dave has done\u2014\u201cGod loves me; I know I got that going for me,\u201d \u201cAm I a capable person?\u201d\u2014this is often the hardest part, where it's like, \u201cDo I feel like I can even be lovable?\u201d You want your voice speaking into that, not just Dave's voice. In fact, it's more importantly your voice than his. And for you: \u201cI felt that as a kid; I didn't feel like I was good enough and nobody cared. But am I a person of worth, and dignity, and adequacy; and can I see that about myself? Can I join God in what He says about me?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn:I think that\u2019s a big component:\u2014\r\n\r\nRon:Say that over myself.\r\n\r\nAnn:\u2014\"Can I join God in what He says about me?\u201d\r\n\r\nRon:That's so important; it's not enough that you know God says this about you. We all read that in the Bible all the time. But we live life as if it's not true, because it's my voice that's the biggest voice in my head. \r\n\r\nDave:Now, what if\u2014we\u2019re talking about us\u2014and in many ways, we are good-willed people. We're not trying to hurt each other.\r\n\r\nRon:Yes, that's exactly right.\r\n\r\nDave:So we're trying to work this out.\r\n\r\nBut what if you're sitting with a couple; and he's\u2014or she's\u2014verbally or physically abusing. So you're saying, \u201cAre you loved?\u201d And she's like, \u201cNo. Every day he tells me I'm\u2026\u201d\u2014it's terrible words;\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn:\u2014or \u201cHe hits me.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:\u2014or he may hit her. \u201cAnd I'm supposed to do\u2026\u201d\u2014what do you say to that \r\n\r\ncouple?\r\n\r\nRon:Well, first of all, we believe this process will help you to see the dignity, worth, and value that you have that your husband is not showing you. And so we actually think you're going to pursue safety more quickly. When you know your capital \u201cT\u201d Truth, you're no longer going to go, \u201cYeah, I just think, if I work a little harder, than he'll be nice.\u201d You're going to give up on that little piece, because it's never going to work. So please hear us now: \u201cWe want you to pursue safety:\u2014\r\n\r\nNan:\u2014\u201csafety.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: And that\u2019s physical safety: \u201cGet out.\u201d\r\n\r\nRon:\u2014\"physical safety; that's number one. Nothing's going to change in your relationship as long as you're subjected to that same old scenario. \r\n\r\nI don't know what that means. I don't know that it means fleeing, in the middle of the night; but it certainly means telling somebody, who can help bring some guidance and some outside objectivity to this process, rather than you continually trying to figure out what you can do to fix the relationship. That has not worked yet; it will never work. We never want anybody to hear us say, \u201cYeah, yeah; you're stuck. Just keep working on you.\u201d \r\n\r\nNo, no, no; physical safety is an absolute must, because it's forcing the other person to acknowledge that they're doing something that's wrong; that's not \u201clove, honor, and cherish,\u201d which is what they said they would do. That's blame, control, and manipulate; so there needs to be some accountability to that process. \r\n\r\nDave:Yeah, that\u2019s good. \r\n\r\nSo when we get to Step 3\u2014and we are able to wrap our mind around Truth, big \u201cT\u201d: \u201cWho I am in Christ: I am worthy.\u201d\r\n\r\nRon:And you're claiming it for yourself. It's not just what Christ says, but you're claiming that\u2014you're owning\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:You're believing it.\r\n\r\nRon:\u2014you\u2019re saying, \"I'm believing it.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn:And you're saying\u2014even yesterday, I liked that you guys said\u2014\u201cSometimes, just do it out loud. Do your work out loud.\u201d\r\n\r\nRon:By the way, all this stuff we're doing right now, you're going to do, out loud, when he walks in and sits down in front of the TV.\r\n\r\nAnn:Okay, say what I should do.\r\n\r\nRon:So let's keep going real quick\u2014Step 3 is\u2014\u201cWhat would your step 3 be?\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn:Big \u201cT\u201d Truth\u2014I think it would be\u2014\"I am seen,\u201d \u201cI am loved,\u201d and \u201cI am worthy,\u201d and \u201cIt doesn't depend on Dave's actions.\u201d\r\n\r\nRon:Wow! See\u2014I even see the emotion that brings to you\u2014just even saying that. See how deep that touches?\r\n\r\nAnn:Yes!\r\n\r\nRon:This speaks to stuff that is very important and real that impacts you at a visceral level in life.\r\n\r\nAnn:And I like the idea of thinking it in my mind; but there's something, too, when you then say it\u2014\r\n\r\nRon:\u2014out loud.\r\n\r\nAnn:\u2014it brings more freedom.\r\n\r\nDave:I mean, some of that emotion is connected to: we've been carrying these bags for decades;\u2014\r\n\r\nNan:I think so.\r\n\r\nDave:\u2014maybe, our whole life. \r\n\r\nNan:I think so. \r\n\r\nDave:And now, we're starting to\u2014well, actually, Jesus is cutting\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn:He already did.\r\n\r\nDave:\u2014the shame.\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nRon:And now, you're embracing what Jesus is offering you. \r\n\r\nAnn:Yes.\r\n\r\nRon:So what's your Step 3?\r\n\r\nDave:\u201cI am worthy,\u201d \u201cI am adequate,\u201d \u201cI'm a good man,\u201d \u201cI'm a good husband,\u201d \u201cI'm a good dad,\u201d \u201cI can do this.\u201d\r\n\r\nRon:And keep in mind that's in the moment\u2014that's even in the face of a look from her, that says, \u201cYou're not enough for me right now,\u201d\u2014you're claiming this for yourself. \r\n\r\nStep 4 is where it gets real: \u201cSo if that is true, here's how I'm going to act in this moment. I normally am escaping into TV, or an activity that I can excel in; but in this moment, I'm choosing\u2014instead of going away from her\u2014perhaps, it's moving toward her. Perhaps it's I'm going to act with the adequacy that I have, and take agency over my life, and do something.\u201d I don't know what that is; do you have a sense of that?\r\n\r\nDave:Yeah. I mean, I immediately think\u2014again, I think when our boys were little\u2014they're not now; well, even now with grandkids: \u201cEngage.\u201d\r\n\r\nRon:Exactly; \u201cEngage.\u201d\r\n\r\n,\r\n\r\nDave:\u201cWalk in the kitchen; engage. Don't even turn on a TV.\u201d Literally, \u201cWhat do you need? How can I help?\u201d \u201cPick up one of the grandkids,\u201d \u201cRun out in the backyard; play with them.\u201d\r\n\r\nRon:And the standard of what you're going to do is not what you think she wants you to do; but it's what you feel like you can do\u2014as a person of worth, value, and dignity\u2014has something to offer.\r\n\r\nNan:Something I tell myself is, I say, \u201cWhat's one of the fruits of the Spirit I can do right now? \r\n\r\nAnn:That's good. \r\n\r\nNan:\u201cWhat's one that needs to come to light? Is it patience? Is it self-control with my mouth?\u201d I also find that, if I can just pray in the moment, for what God can do in me and show me; because sometimes, I'm not seeing it. I need to see that truth; and then, I'm going to pick up a fruit of the Spirit.\r\n\r\nRon:Yeah. We like to say: \u201cIf you don't have anything else, you know can always do a fruit of the Spirit.\u201d That could be Step 4 if you don't have anything else.\r\n\r\nNan:\u2014or Corinthians 13; I mean, \u201cWhat is love?\u201d God calls us to all of that: it's not a record of wrongs, but it's patience and kindness...\r\n\r\nAnn:I think, too, it's important\u2014maybe, especially for me, as a woman\u2014that this isn't dependent\/my next step isn't dependent on my feelings. I can say all those things, and it's almost like I'm training my brain. So to do the next thing is an act of my will, not necessarily an emotion that I feel.\r\n\r\nRon:For you, what would that look like?\u2014Step 4.\r\n\r\nAnn:It would be to go greet Dave, and to welcome him in; instead of: \u201cWhat?! Why is the TV on? We've got a lot of things going on right now!\u201d Instead of blaming; it would be to welcome him, and to love him; maybe, just to hug him.\r\n\r\nRon:And now, that you've unpacked this in front of one another; maybe, you know a little bit more about the other person. So in that moment, you might be able to see\u2014if he's retreating\u2014you might be able to actually see, \u201cOh, he's feeling inadequate; he's feeling the \u2018I'm not enough thing.\u2019\u201d At some point, probably not in the beginning; but eventually, you might actually be able to move toward that part of him rather than the part of you that's feeling the pain.\r\n\r\nAnn:Right. And I know that, when I am not blaming or shaming\u2014I'm joyful; I'm free\u2014I know that's what draws Dave to me.\r\n\r\nRon:So let's put this all together. I don't know how much time we have; maybe, we could streamline this. Imagine you're in with the grandkids; and Dave walks in, and he says, \u201cHey!\u201d; and then, he plops in front of the TV, and turns it on. All of this stuff hits\u2014boom, boom, boom, boom\u2014he's feeling what he's feeling before he walked in. You're feeling that, in response to the TV thing. \r\n\r\nAnd instead of doing what you used to do, one of you goes first\u2014doesn't matter who it is\u2014and says, out loud, the four steps; that you just say, out loud, in front of the other person's presence and awareness, all four of those things. Go through the motions; but then, also imagine, \u201cHow would you react or respond to the other person if they did that? How would it's a change for you?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn:That\u2019s a great question. \u201cOh, you're so\u2026\u201d; I would be in awe. \r\n\r\nRon:So imagine he sits down, plops in front of the TV. You walk in; you see that. You feel the trigger\u2014trigger's not going to go away\u2014trigger's there. And you go: \u201cI know what this is\u2026\u201d; say your pain and what you normally do.\r\n\r\nAnn:\u201cI am feeling unloved when you do that, and I know that. What I would usually do is blame you and get angry.\u201d\r\n\r\nRon: Good. \r\n\r\nAnn:\u201cBut what I want to do is invite you in: \u2018I'm so happy that you're home.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nRon:Good. And if she said that, out loud, rather than what she normally does,\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:I'd probably pick her up and carry her around the kitchen.\r\n\r\nRon:Yeah; it gets a little bit easier to move to order, doesn\u2019t it?\r\n\r\nDave:I would be ecstatic.\r\n\r\nRon:Yeah.\r\n\r\nDave:I'm joking, but there would be life coming to my soul. And again, it's not based on her;\u2014\r\n\r\nRon:Exactly.\r\n\r\nDave:\u2014but it would bring life.\r\n\r\nRon:And let's say you could just go through your four steps. You'd have life; you'd move toward; and you'd go, \u201cYeah, and you know what? The reason I came in and sat down is because I\u2019m not feeling adequate; I feel like I don't belong. What I usually do is just escape; I know that's what that was; that was escape. The truth is: I'm learning my agency. I'm learning this about me. I'm starting to claim what God's telling me about myself. And man, I do want to move toward you; I want to move toward our grandkids. What can I do?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:Exactly.\r\n\r\nRon:The point is: as each of you takes responsibility for you\u2014your worst self, the worst part of you\u2014and changing that into something new, it does feed your us-ness. It doesn't fix everything right away, and there's often resentment and pain left over from the past; because this has happened more than once. But at least, it's moving toward newness that both of you feel is fresh and gives you a wind.\r\n\r\nNan:And what I want to say to the listener is: \u201cDidn't it feel a little clunky, at first, doing this?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn:Yeah, for sure.\r\n\r\nNan:It takes practice; it does. It took a good\u2014I would say three months\u2014for me to find out who I was, what my pain was, what I truly do in my pain, what the truth is, and what I'm going to walk out with God in the truth. I would write those out and journal about those, but I would also say them out loud. And then, I went to Ron with them. It's clunky at first; and some people give up on it, too soon, because it's hard work. But stick with it.\r\n\r\nRon:Here's the final word: renewing your mind is not just renewing your thoughts or renewing your consciousness. Renewing your mind is neurological. This process\u2014the brain science says\u2014you do this over, and over, and over again. Repeat it 50 times, in a moment of being triggered, and you actually rewire synapses in your brain; and create new pathways that, instead of reacting out of old pain, react out of new truth. That is amazing!\r\n\r\nAnn:That is spiritual.\r\n\r\nRon:God is not just renewing your thoughts, He's renewing your brain!\r\n\r\nAnn:And that's what God can do.\r\n\r\nDave:That's what he does.\r\n\r\nNan:Amen. \r\n\r\nDave:We said it every day so far; but I think it's impossible, without the power of God, to do this. \r\n\r\nNan:Exactly.\r\n\r\nDave:You got to surrender. And we said it yesterday, too: \u201cYou can't have pride and do this.\u201d \u201cI don\u2019t want to do it; I want to blame her,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s pride.\r\n\r\nRon:That's right.\r\n\r\nDave:That's: \u201cI'm not wrong; you're wrong.\u201d To be humble enough to say, \u201cI've got work to do. This whole marriage could be better if I would do the work, and I can't do it without Jesus\u201d; so it's like those two things together. \r\n\r\nBut man, oh man, let me say this: if you're listening, and going, \r\n\r\n\u201cOkay, I want to start right now,\u201d here's how you start: go to FamilyLife.com\/MindfulMarriage; take the assessment. It's all in the book, and we'll send you the book; just send a donation to FamilyLife; become a financial partner with us. We will send you The Mindful Marriage as a gift to you for being a blessing to us. It will be a blessing to you. You can do that at FamilyLifeToday.com. Or you can call us at 800-358-6329. That's 800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word, TODAY.\r\n\r\n Man, you guys have been awesome. Thank you.\r\n\r\nAnn:Thanks, Ron and Nan.\r\n\r\nNan:Thank you.\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife.com                                 \r\n\r\n\n","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/311574","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=311574"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/311575"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=311574"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=311574"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=311574"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=311574"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=311574"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=311574"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}