{"id":310763,"date":"2024-11-27T03:18:35","date_gmt":"2024-11-27T08:18:35","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/dave-anns-conflict-cycle-debra-fileta\/"},"modified":"2024-11-27T03:18:37","modified_gmt":"2024-11-27T08:18:37","slug":"dave-anns-conflict-cycle-debra-fileta","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/dave-anns-conflict-cycle-debra-fileta\/","title":{"rendered":"Dave &#038; Ann&#8217;s Conflict Cycle: Debra Fileta"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Is conflict always bad? Dave and Ann Wilson discuss their marriage conflict cycle and underlying issues as guests on Debra Fileta&#8217;s podcast, &#8220;Talk To Me.&#8221;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Is conflict always bad? Dave and Ann Wilson discuss their marriage conflict cycle and underlying issues as guests on Debra Fileta&#8217;s podcast, &#8220;Talk To Me.&#8221;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":310764,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/c38af63b-8580-4997-b9df-b22001626296\/audio.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:34:24","filesize":"31.53M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2910],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[9748],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-310763","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-marriage-challenges","cwp_profile-debra-fileta","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/11\/image_14a487.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/310763\/dave-anns-conflict-cycle-debra-fileta","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/310763\/dave-anns-conflict-cycle-debra-fileta","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"bBYzMcXazE\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/dave-anns-conflict-cycle-debra-fileta\/\">Dave &#038; Ann&#8217;s Conflict Cycle: Debra Fileta<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/dave-anns-conflict-cycle-debra-fileta\/embed\/#?secret=bBYzMcXazE\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Dave &#038; Ann&#8217;s Conflict Cycle: Debra Fileta&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"bBYzMcXazE\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/11\/image_14a487.jpg",1024,1024,true]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Is conflict always bad? Dave and Ann Wilson discuss their marriage conflict cycle and underlying issues as guests on Debra Fileta's podcast, \"Talk To Me.\"","meta_box":{"show_notes":"\n<ul>\n<li>Connect with Debra Fileta and catch more of their thoughts at <a href=\"https:\/\/debrafileta.com\/\">debrafileta.com<\/a>, and on Insta <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/DebraFileta\/\">@debrafileta<\/a> and catch other episodes on <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/profiles\/debra-fileta\/\">FamilyLife Today<\/a>. Also, check out her podcast, \"<a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/36P7FuUa8DZefzNLYHtfFE\">Talk to Me<\/a>.\"<\/li>\n<li>Grab your copy of Dave & Ann Wilson's book, Vertical Marriage, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/vertical-marriage-the-one-secret-that-will-change-your-marriage-2\/\">here<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Don't miss out on FamilyLife's amazing sale: Weekend to Remember gift cards are half off and devotionals are discounted from Nov. 18 to Dec. 2 at <a href=\"http:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>!<br \/>\n<hr>\n<\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-11-27.pdf","transcript_content":"\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nDave and Ann\u2019s Conflict Cycle\r\n\r\nGuest:Debra Fileta\r\n\r\nFrom the series:Dave and Ann\u2019s Conflict Cycle (Day 1 of 1)\r\n\r\nAir date:November 27,2024\r\n\r\nDebra: You have control means you have a role. If I actually want control, I have to realize that I do have a role. And if I don't have a role, then this can just keep happening over, and over, and over; and it's out of my\u2014there's nothing I can do about it\u2014\u201cThis is just who he is.\u201d\r\n\r\nShelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.\r\n\r\nAnn: This is FamilyLife Today!\r\n\r\nDave:So we're going to get fixed today.\r\n\r\nAnn: Aren't you happy about this?\r\n\r\nDave:I don't know; am I?\r\n\r\nAnn: I am.\r\n\r\nDave:It's a little scary. Tell our listeners what we're doing today.\r\n\r\nAnn: So Debra\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:This will be a different type of program; this will be fun.\r\n\r\nAnn: Debra Fileta, who is our favorite counselor\u2014Debra, we love everything that you do; we love you\u2014you're a therapist; you're a counselor; you're a mom; you\u2019re\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:\u2014an author.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014an author.\r\n\r\nDave:\u2014author of seven books.\r\n\r\nAnn: You're homeschooling your kids.\r\n\r\nWe have loved being with you. One of the reasons I've loved being with you is because: when we talk, you enter into our lives as a therapist. You dig deep into some of our issues. \r\n\r\nDebra: I love digging,\u2014 \r\n\r\nDave: You do! \r\n\r\nDebra: \u2014just ask my husband.\r\n\r\nDave: \u201cGo get the dirt.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:And you do this as a show, right?\u2014on YouTube a podcast called Talk to Me. \r\n\r\nDebra: Talk to Me.\r\n\r\nDave: Tell our listeners what you do,\u2014 \r\n\r\nDebra: Talk to Me\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014because you're sort of going to do it today.\r\n\r\nDebra: Yeah, we sort of are. Talk to Me: the Debra Fileta Podcast, and I have on-air counseling sessions with hotline callers\u2014with different people from across the country\u2014with leaders; oftentimes, notable leaders; teachers; sometimes people that you would recognize; other times, just a hotline caller that you wouldn't recognize.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yeah, we watched JP Pokluda, was with you.\r\n\r\nDebra: Yeah\u2014JP\u2014we talked about dad wounds on that episode. And we go deep; we go deep. \r\n\r\nAnn: That's why I love you.\r\n\r\nDave:That's why I'm scared. Our producer, Jim, and our engineer, Bruce, had this idea\u2014which I don't know if I like it, but I'm going to do it\u2014where we share a conflict we've had, and you sort of step into it.\r\n\r\nDebra: \u2014unpack it.\r\n\r\nDave:Yeah; \u201cOkay; what's really going on here?\u201d We haven't had one recently; but a lot of our listeners are familiar with a story that\u2019s in our Vertical Marriage book, and in our Vertical Marriage video curriculum, that we'll try and tell in a shortened version. It's a ten-minute story on video, but we'll do it quickly.\r\n\r\nAnn: And let me add\u2014this kind of conflict in the topic\u2014the underlying issue continues to recycle in our marriage and still does. I think a lot of couples\u2014is it true that they have a conflict that recycles?\u2014the kind of, not the same conflict, but the issue? \r\n\r\nDebra: I always start with a couple by saying: \u201cTell me about your conflict cycle. What is that conflict that keeps coming up again, and again, and again? What's the pattern? If you had to recognize some sort of a pattern of conflict\u2014\u2018He does this; and I do this,\u2019 or \u2018She does this; and then, this is how I respond,\u2019\u2014what would your conflict cycle be?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Okay, as a listener, think about that question: \u201cWhat would your conflict cycle be?\u201d\r\n\r\nDebra: \u201cGive me a glimpse of the conflict cycle.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: \u201cI couldn't even see it when it happened; but now, I look back: \u2018Yeah, this was our cycle.\u2019\u201d \r\n\r\nIt's a situation that took place on a Sunday morning, when I was preaching at my church. It was the third service; it's in between the third service. Five minutes before the service is going to start, I'm out in the lobby, saying, \u201cHi,\u201d to people. Ann whips in with our car; and there's a parking spot right by the front door, like the closest spot. There's one empty there. I'm outside, in Michigan; and I see her whip in. She jumps out, with two of our boys, and starts walking up, smiling, and happy that she found this great parking spot.\r\n\r\nAnn: And I\u2019ll say I'm late, super late. I think one of our sons was in college, the other was 16; the other was 13. And so I get there, and I see that spot right by the front door; I'm like, \u201cThank You, Jesus!\u201d I whip in there; and then, I see Dave. I'm like, \u201cLook at you out here, smiling and saying, \u2018Hi,\u2019 to everybody.\u201d I greet him; I'm happy to see him, and he has this look of anger. He whispers in my ear, \u201cMove the car now.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:And she says, \u201cI'm not moving the car. God gave me that spot.\u201d I'm like, God didn't give me that spot; move the car.\u201d She goes, \u201cI'm not moving the car.\u201d I grabbed the keys, and I flip them to our son, Austin, who's 16.\r\n\r\nAnn: And I stand in front of Austin, with my arms open; I'm like, \u201cHe is not moving the car.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:And I, literally, almost pushing her out of the way. At the same time, Debra, I'm like, \u201cHey, welcome to Kensington\u201d; it's this total fake thing.\r\n\r\nDebra: So are people aware; or is this just like you guys are quietly going, back and forth, and nobody\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:If you were looking close, you could tell there's a little friction; but mostly, it was covered up. I was literally pretending: \u201cHey, welcome\u2026\u201d \u201cMove the car; you got to move the car,\u201d \u201cHey, how you doing?\r\n\r\nDebra: So what's your underlying reasoning? You want her to move the car for what reason?\r\n\r\nDave: Well, wait\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: He goes in; he has to preach. I sit in the back row.\r\n\r\nDave:I mean, we didn't have time to fix it. I, literally, \u201cI got to go preach\u201d; and I run into church.\r\n\r\nAnn: I sit in the back row. I look at him, and I think, \u201cI don't even like the pastor of this church. Look at him up there.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:And I'm up there, preaching away. \r\n\r\nHere's what happens: I come home. It's an hour later, after that incident; and I walk in the kitchen, and it's on\u2014I'm still mad\u2014we never resolved it. I don't know if the car got moved or not; I had to go in, and I'm pretty sure it didn't get moved. And so I walk in; and right away,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014he's yelling.\r\n\r\nDave:We don't yell a lot in our fights anymore\u2014even at that time\u2014but I'm pretty hot. I'm like, \u201cI cannot believe you parked there. What were you thinking?\u201d And she's barking, back and forth. I'll never forget\u2014our youngest son, Cody, who's now a pastor\u2014but he was 13. He's sitting at the kitchen table; and he, literally, raises his hand. I remember looking at him\u2014I don't have time for this; we're in the middle of this thing\u2014but I'm like, \u201cWhat?!\u201d Again, I'm amped up.\r\n\r\nHe goes, \u201cHey, don't you and Mom travel around the country and teach couples how to resolve?\u201d\u2014that's what he says. I'm like, \u201cOh, yeah.\u201d And he goes, \u201cCould you, maybe, show me?\u201d I'm like, \u201cMaybe.\u201d It got so bad; Ann goes upstairs, she's like, \u201cI'm done.\u201d She leaves, and I'm sitting there. Again, nobody knows what the fight's about. \r\n\r\nHere's what the fight's about: I was one of the founders of this church. And when we had 40 people\u2014and now, we have tens of thousands of people with all these campuses\u2014we set core values for the church, one of the things founders do. One of our core values\u2014not saying other churches should do this, but it was ours; and it's still a core value, 30 years later\u2014was we leave the best parking spots for our guests, for our visitors.\r\n\r\nAnn: They were already there;\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014I was so late. They were already there.\r\n\r\nDave:So there's this spot right by the front door. Our whole church knows this\u2014we used to have a membership thing; and we'd say, \u201cHey, put up your right hand and say, \u2018I will now take the worst parking spots and leave the ones by the front door for people that are trying to find God.\u2019\u201d I used to say, \u201cIf we take that parking spot, they're going to end up in hell. So we got to make sure\u2026\u201d\u2014I'm kidding\u2014but it was like that was a core value of our church. And so, I'm like, \u201cNot only is she violating it, she's the pastor's wife; and they're all watching,\u201d\u2014that's what I was thinking. I was mad that she was violating a core value.\r\n\r\nAnn: So I left the room, not because I'm avoiding conflict; I go upstairs to get ammunition, like, \u201cOh, I'm going to let him have it.\u201d I go upstairs; I'm there for probably ten minutes. I come down with this very dramatic entrance; and I'm like, \u201cHere's the truth.\u201d I mean, I am big: \u201cI do everything around here! \r\n\r\nI am taking care of the kids. \r\n\r\nI'm going to parent\/teacher conferences. \r\n\r\nI am mowing the grass. \r\n\r\nI'm taking care of the cars. \r\n\r\nAnd everybody's like, \u201cOh, Dave, you're amazing.\u201d \r\n\r\nI am getting it done and holding it down. \r\n\r\nYou know what? When it's snowing in Michigan, I'm in the back of the parking lot, carrying babies in their infant seats through the snow, trudging in while you're\u2014\r\n\r\n\u201cOh, Dave; you're amazing.\u201d\r\n\r\nI am wakeboarding just to hang with the guys. \r\n\r\nI have learned how to snowboard just to be with the guys. \r\n\r\n\u201cSo if there's one Sunday\u2014one Sunday\u2014that there's a parking spot by the front door,\u201d\u2014I mean, I say it loud\u2014\u201cI should get to take it!\u201d And then, there's just silence.\r\n\r\nDave:So we're sitting there, and I'm not getting why she did that\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: Well, maybe, we should just let Debra\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:I'll just say this: Cody looked me; he's still there\u2014and I'll never forget: no word spoken\u2014it was man to man, 13-year-old to his dad\u2014he's like, \u201cDad, you are toast.\u201d It was just that look, like,\u2014\r\n\r\nDebra: \u2014\"She's got a good point.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:\u201cOh, my goodness; she is making so much sense.\u201d And you're over there, complaining about a parking spot\u2014no words were spoken\u2014it was just this look.\r\n\r\nAnn: So that conflict continues to cycle back. Even today, if there's a conflict, it's about me not feeling seen\/important, like I matter.\r\n\r\nDave:No, no, no; let her tell us.\r\n\r\nAnn: Okay; that's what\u2014I'm saying, \u201cThat's what I feel,\u201d\u2014and that's what's still comes back.\r\n\r\nDave:There was an ending to this story that I'll save;\u2014\r\n\r\nDebra: Okay.\r\n\r\nDave:\u2014because when I heard that, I had a thought; and I asked her about it. But what do you see?\r\n\r\nDebra: Well, I guess I would start with: \u201cWhat is it that bothered you so much? What were you feeling that Ann was doing? How are you interpreting the situation to get to the anger?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: I love you!\r\n\r\nDebra: You're angry because what Ann is _____: fill in the blank of what your interpretation is.\r\n\r\nDave:I think it's probably two things: \r\n\r\nOne, she's violating something really important to me that she probably has said it's important to her, too. I don't know if it was or not, but it's important to me; because I'm one of the leaders that set that value. \r\n\r\nAnd number two, I think it made me look bad. I was like, \u201cPeople are seeing that the pastor's wife is not doing what he's saying we should be about here.\u201d I think that was probably at the bottom of it.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014making you look\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:You think it was something else?\r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, no; I haven't thought about that for you. I haven't analyzed your thing; that's interesting.\r\n\r\nDebra: It's almost like she's disrespecting you and making you look bad. It was a moment of feeling\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:\u201cShe's not my teammate; she's not my partner. She's against me at this point.\u201d\r\n\r\nDebra: \u2014disrespected; unseen in a similar way; unheard; not important\u2014all of those things. \r\n\r\nAnd you're [Ann] feeling what, underneath the surface?\r\n\r\nAnn: I'm feeling like: \u201cWell, of course, you're mad about it; because the church is always\u2014your job\u2014is more important than me. You're caring for the church; you're spending time with the church. The people are more important. And so I'm trudging through the snow, and you could care less, because the people at the church are way more important; and you care more what they think about you than what I think about you.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnd then, there's this little rebelliousness in me: \u201cYou know what? Maybe we should have the pastors\u2019 wives park near the front, because we never have our husbands.\u201d But the deep-down issue was I feel like I'm not seen; I'm just not a priority.\r\n\r\nDebra: I am curious, Dave: \u201cIf there was nobody there to see her do that, and you weren't going to look bad\u2014nobody would ever know\u2014do you think that would've made a difference?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:Honestly, I don't think it would've made a difference. If my best\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: What?! Really?! \r\n\r\nDave: \u2014if Rob would've done that\u2014one of my good friends, I think I was so committed to that value, which, by the way, I think is a stupid value now. I\u2019m just\u2014\r\n\r\nDebra: Yeah, it's a little much. \r\n\r\nDave:\u2014it\u2019s way past that. \r\n\r\nDebra: It's just a little much; it\u2019s a little black and white. I would agree.\r\n\r\nDave:It was like we were so about that: \u201cThat just shows how much we care about the lost sheep.\u201d\r\n\r\nDebra: So for you, it was about her breaking a commitment.\r\n\r\nDave:Yeah; if my buddy, Rob, would've done it, I would've said, \u201cDude, move the car. What are you doing? You know that's a value here; you're a team player.\u201d And he would've probably said, \u201cI don't care.\u201d But I would've said the same thing to him. \r\n\r\nBut because it was her, it was more intimate than I think I was feeling disrespected as well. To a buddy, I would've been like, \u201cCome on, guys. I parked way over there, and carried my guitar all the way up here; do the same thing.\u201d\r\n\r\nDebra: So it was less about what people thought and more about the fact that she was breaking a rule or commitment.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014which is so interesting, because you're such a rule-breaker.\r\n\r\nDave:Yeah, I'm not a rule-keeper; but it was like, \u201cWe have agreed this is a value that matters, and you're not with me at this point.\u201d And again, I don't even remember looking like, \u201cWho's seeing this?\u201d; so I don't think that was that important. It was just like, \u201cYou're not seeing me: this matters to your husband.\u201d And you're like, \u201cWho cares about what matters to you? I'm going to break it.\u201d That's what I think it was, at the root.\r\n\r\nAnn: So you see us going, head to head\u2014\r\n\r\nDebra: Well, let me pause you for a second. For someone like Dave, who rarely has needs\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes, rarely; yeah.\r\n\r\nDebra: \u2014rarely kind of puts a stake in the ground of\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: That's true.\r\n\r\nDebra: \u2014\u201cI need this,\u201d \u201cThis matters to me.\u201d I could see the one time something does actually matter to you, feeling like, \u201cWow, I guess it doesn't matter to anybody else\u201d; I could see that being a trigger point. It's like: \u201cI don't have needs, to begin with; so the one time I do have a need or something that I think is important or significant, you just trample over it\u201d; I could see that causing an emotional reaction.\r\n\r\nAnn: And I would say, \u201cOf course, his one need\u2014what is it?\u2014it's not his own personal need; it's not the family need.\u201d Here's what I said, \u201cIt's Kensington; it's the church.\r\n\r\nDave:\u2014the church, the job.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cOf all the things that you finally express a need, it's that you protect the church.\u201d That's what I would've said in that moment: \u201cThat seems messed up, and I'm not going to agree with it\u201d; that was my rebelliousness. Do you know what I mean? \r\n\r\nDebra: Right; I totally understand. \r\n\r\nAnn: Do you think that I should honor that?\u2014like, \u201cOh, he finally expressed a need,\u201d and be like, \u201cWow, look at you expressing a need, as dumb as it is.\u201d\r\n\r\nDebra: That's the tricky part. I think, in the ideal situation\/ideally: he would've said, \u201cHey, this is really important to me,\u201d and you would've said, \u201cSure; I understand that.\u201d And he would've taken the keys and moved the car himself. \r\n\r\nIn an ideal situation\u2014we both have needs\u2014\"I'm glad you're here; glad you brought the kids. But this is so important to me, and I'm going to move the car myself.\u201d And then, he moves the car and everybody\u2014it's a win-win. And then, processing: \u201cOkay, what was that really all about?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: I think, if I would've said, \u201cDeeper down, my issue is this is the typical thing: your job is more important than me. And you always choose\/\u201d\u2014and I would've said that word, too\u2014\u201cyour job always comes before me.\u201d That was what my core thing was.\r\n\r\nDave:And the truth is: it was.\r\n\r\nDebra: Yeah, especially in that moment, when you're like, \u201cGo move the car yourself\u201d; clearly. If it was actually about the spot, you would've just moved it, and not made a big deal out of it.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014or had somebody else move it. \r\n\r\nDebra: Right; well, your son.\r\n\r\nAnn: I would have moved it.\r\n\r\nDebra: But you were like, \u201cNo, nobody's moving this car.\u201d \r\n\r\nDave: I tried to get somebody\u2014\r\n\r\nDebra: That's where you\u2014see, this is how fights happen\u2014it's not just one wrong move. Okay, let's just say Dave made a wrong move. How do we continue the conflict cycle?\u2014Ann has to make a wrong move. And then, Dave has to respond with another wrong move. But if one person were to interrupt that, the whole thing changes. If one person would interrupt.\r\n\r\nAnn: I could have moved the car; I could have moved the car. \r\n\r\nDebra: You could have moved the car; you could have had your son move the car. You could have said to Dave, \u201cYou know what, Dave? I understand it's important to you; this is a  core value. Here's the keys; I'll be inside.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: It had nothing to do with the parking spot. It had everything to do with priority.\r\n\r\nDave: But, looking back\u2014\r\n\r\nDebra: All of the buildup of not feeling prioritized.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes, and this had been cycling. I think this had been going on a lot, in the last few weeks; so it was building, and it was building.\r\n\r\nDave:Well, I mean, the truth is I couldn't see it. Yeah, it had been going on a lot\u2014our whole marriage\u2014this wasn't the last few weeks. \r\n\r\nIf you go back to the kitchen, and she just barked out: \u201cI do everything,\u201d\u2014dah, dah, dah; and \u201cIf there's one time there's a parking spot, I should be able to take it.\u201d Here's what happened\u2014gets real quiet\u2014I look at her, and I said, \u201cCan I ask you a question?\u201d And again, she's across the kitchen; and she goes, \u201cYeah.\u201d I go, \u201cDo you feel like Kensington\u201d\u2014that's our church\u2014\"Do you feel like Kensington's more important to me than you are?\u201d She didn't even answer; she just goes\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cYes\u201d; shook my head. \r\n\r\nDave:Debra, that's the first time I realized. I mean, everybody listens, like, \u201cDude, you're so stupid. This fight was never about a parking spot, from the word, \u2018Go.\u2019\u201d I did not know; that's how naive and dumb I was until that second\u2014because when she was saying all that, I was like, \u201cShe thinks my job's more important than her?\u201d I'm thinking, \u201cThat\u2019s my job; they\u2019re not even close. But is that what she's saying?\u201d\u2014\"Hey, do you feel like\u2026\u201d; and she goes, \u201cYeah.\u201d I'm like, \u201cThis is not a fight about a parking spot; this is about her feeling [not] loved and cherished,\u201d\u2014all the stuff I preach\u2014\u201c\u2019Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church. Lay down your life, nourish, and cherish her.\u2019\u201d \r\n\r\nI wasn't doing that, and I didn't know it until that second. I'm like\u2014and I'm telling you: five years before that, here's how I would've responded; you'll love this\u2014I would've said, \u201cThat is so ridiculous! I love you more than the church!\u201d I would've yelled at her, and that would have made her feel loved. The good thing is I'd grown enough to go: \u201cTell me more. What do I do? How do you feel that way?\u201d I'm thinking, \u201cIt is not even close you\u2014the church, the job\u2014but if she says it's this, it is this.\u201d\r\n\r\nDebra: Well, here's what I'm curious, Ann. To me, that's the point of explosion\u2014this is the boom!\u2014but the buildup has been happening. \u201cSo how have you been navigating the buildup of this?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Yeah, I think I was stuffing it; and that's why it erupted.\r\n\r\nDebra: Because it shouldn't have been new information to him, all these years later.\r\n\r\nAnn: Well,\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:And I would say, \u201cI think she [had] been trying to communicate it.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: But I was yelling; I wasn't communicating it in a healthy way. \r\n\r\nDave: I wasn\u2019t hearing.\r\n\r\nAnn: He didn't hear it. I'd get louder; he'd ignore it. And Dave wasn't liking conflict anyway. And I am like, \u201cLet's go, man!\u201d I think that felt intimidating and big. We really needed you back then. \r\n\r\nDebra: Yeah.\r\n\r\nDave:Well, I mean, our Vertical Marriage book is based on a conversation that took place ten years before that, in our car, where she says, \u201cI've lost my feelings for you\u201d; she was saying it then. Why'd she lose her feelings for me?\u2014because I was out running, running, running; and she was unseen.\r\n\r\nDebra: But here's the problem: Ann has been communicating indirectly for so many years; and then, just starting to communicate more directly. Even that conversation, as you're telling me, isn't her direct communication. It's you picking up the pieces of: \u201cWait a second; are you saying this\u2026\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: I agree.\r\n\r\nDebra: And her saying, \u201cYes, that is what I'm saying,\u201d\u2014versus her sitting down and saying\u2014\u201cListen, I don't feel prioritized; I don't feel loved. Here\u2019s what's going on inside of me,\u201d \u201cHere's what I need from you\u2026\u201d [Instead] it's [been] this passive\/aggressive type of communication, which is so hard for the other person to understand.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes; I totally agree.\r\n\r\nDebra: And then, you're sitting there, feeling like the victim for all these years\u2014which, in a way, you are\u2014you're a victim to the situation; but you're, also, a victim to yourself in the fact that you aren't able to kind of articulate what you need. I think that goes back to what we talked about\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014in a previous episode that we had you on.\r\n\r\nDebra: \u2014\"Not Knowing My Needs\u201d\u2014not even being able to articulate; not even knowing if my needs should be shared: \u201cDo I put this on Dave and tell him what I need?\u201d or \u201cDo I just keep stuffing and dealing?\u201d That angry list of all the things you had been doing\u2014in a way, the hard truth is\u2014you were doing them because you chose to do them instead of putting them on him, and telling him what you needed.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes, or even asking him. I had a martyr complex; and then, I would do everything; and then, I'd pat myself on the back, and say, \u201cI do everything around here. He doesn't even notice.\u201d That's on me.\r\n\r\nDave:And then, the other side is she grew up in a family where she just got things done; because she wasn't seen. The brothers were seen; the boys were seen.\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nDebra: Yes, exactly. The assumption is\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014 \u201cI grew up in a family, [where] I wasn't seen, and I made life happen. So here we are, now married.\u201d\r\n\r\nDebra: And why you guys function so well together is because you were comfortable with living unseen. \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes. \r\n\r\nDebra: Until it got to the point where you couldn't handle it anymore. You were comfortable, living unseen in the relationship with Dave, until you got to a breaking point. I wish you had become uncomfortable, way earlier, so that you could have said, \u201cListen, something's got to change, Dave. Something's got to change; we can't function like this anymore.\u201d Because it almost allowed him to live in his dysfunction by not confronting what was happening. \r\n\r\nAnn: Exactly. And we still struggle with this, because we still have some of the same tendencies. Let's say, not too long ago, I had said to Dave\u2014now, we're running together\u2014before, I'm home with the kids; I'm taking care of the house and all that\u2014but I said to him, not too long ago, \u201cDave, I can't\/this pace is too hard for me.\u201d I painted a visual; I said, \u201cIt feels like you're sprinting as fast as you can go. I've been trying to run with you; but now, all I've done is I'm holding onto your belt loop\/your belt; and my feet are flying up in the air. You're running fast; and I'm just holding on, with my feet in the air, trying to stay with you.\u201d He heard that\u2014I wasn't mad\u2014I was just saying, \u201cThis is where I am; I can't do it like this anymore.\u201d And you totally heard it. And even the visual helped you really to get it.\r\n\r\nDave:At first I was like, \u201cIsn't this great?! I'm running; your holding on\u201d; and then, I'm like, \u201cNo, this isn't great.\u201d It's back to soul care; it's back to rhythms; it's all that. I mean, it's like, \u201cI got to hear this; and then, change.\u201d\r\n\r\nDebra: This reminds me of so many couples I work with, who think they've communicated something\u2014\u201cOf course, he should know,\u201d \u201cOf course, she should know. Look at the situation,\u201d\u2014but have you sat down and directly, clearly talked about your part? \u201cThis is what I'm feeling,\u201d \u201cThis is what I am experiencing,\u201d \u201cThis is what I need,\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014without being explosive. \r\n\r\nDebra: Right; and it rarely happens. \r\n\r\nAnn: It doesn't? \r\n\r\nDebra: And when you do slow down, and have that conversation, it's rare for things to stay unresolved when you can have a conversation of: \u201cHey, here's what I'm struggling with\u2026\u201d \u201cHere's what I need\u2026\u201d \u201cHere's what it spoke to me when you took that parking spot\u2026\u201d \u201cHere's what it spoke to me when you wouldn't let me take that parking spot\u2026\u201d \u201cHere\u2019s what it going on; let's understand each other.\u201d \r\n\r\nIt's like, \u201cOkay, I understand you; I understand your perspective. I might not have had the same reaction; because we're different people, with different backgrounds, with different trauma. But I understand why you did; I could see that.\u201d And now, we understand each other; and we can move forward together, and do it better this [next] time around.\r\n\r\nAnn: I'm assuming you would say, \u201cSometimes, you need a third party to come in, to have new eyes on it, to be able to help you to see each other.\u201d\r\n\r\nDebra: Yeah, for sure. I mean, at the time, for you to be able to say, \u201cOh, I'm functioning as a victim, right now, rather than taking power and ownership of the situation,\u201d we probably would've needed someone to help you see that, who wasn't Dave.\r\n\r\nAnn: Right. \r\n\r\nDebra: And for someone to say to you: \u201cDave, you're living in isolation. You're just focused on your needs and nobody else's.\u201d That would have taken somebody, other than Ann, most likely, to help you get there sooner. \r\n\r\nBut also, to confront the fact that both of you had a role in this. We could have looked at Dave as the bad guy here. But honestly, you both were making mistakes, leading up to this moment. And you both have things to own.\r\n\r\nAnn: I agree. And I think, back in the day, I would've said, in almost every one of our fights, I would've said, \u201cHe's the problem,\u201d which leaves me as being the victim.\r\n\r\nDebra: \u2014again. \r\n\r\nAnn: And I never saw that before.\r\n\r\nDebra: The more you have control means you have a role. If I actually want control, I have to realize that I do have a role. And if I don't have a role, then this can just keep happening over, and over, and over\u2014and it's out of my\/there's nothing I can do about it\u2014\u201cThis is just who he is.\u201d \r\n\r\nWhen really, you can do so much about it\u2014you could have set boundaries; you could have had conversations\u2014but that's hard. And it's easier to be like: \u201cHe's just oblivious,\u201d \u201cHe just doesn't care about me,\u201d\u2014living out of your own unseen wounds, putting that on him. \r\n\r\nAnd funny that we're kind of focusing in on Ann today; because I feel like, in the past, we've really focused in on you, Dave.\r\n\r\nDave:I deserved it.\r\n\r\nDebra: But maybe today is the idea that I think so many women feel like the victim in their marriage.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014and their husband is at fault. \r\n\r\nDebra: And a hundred percent of the time, the husband is at fault\u2014but we're also\u2014\u201cWhat's my role here?\u201d \u201cHave I communicated what I need in a healthy way?\u201d \u201cHave I set healthy boundaries?\u201d \u201cHave I dealt with my childhood trauma?\u201d \u201cHow am I interpreting what he's saying, or doing, and needing in the moment?\u201d \r\n\r\nYou're interpreting it as: \u201cHe doesn't care about me\u201d; because that's all you've lived, and grown, and seen; and you've never interrupted that cycle\u2014rather than: \u201cHe's just honoring these values that we've both\u2026\u201d\u2014you're interpreting it through your trauma. \r\n\r\nAnn: That's it. \r\n\r\nDebra: And of course, you're going to be mad\u2014of course, it's going to be: \u201cHe's the bad guy,\u201d\u2014but if you actually look at that situation, in isolation, what he did wasn't wrong\/wasn't that bad. But he could have done it better\u2014and then, the cycle\u2014the whole thing just kind of blew up. \r\n\r\nAnn: And I could have, too.\r\n\r\nDave:Well, and I said earlier\u2014I think that value, that we created at our church\u2014now, I think that is such a dishonoring value to our leaders' wives\/our staffs\u2019 wives. Again, I'm not saying that the person we're trying to reach is unimportant; they're important. But to say to our staff wives, which we did for decades: \u201cYou park in the back of the thing, because everybody else matters more than you.\u201d And again, I'm not saying, \u201cHey, first lady, parking right by the front door.\u201d Every church has their own thing; they do what they want. But that was a strong statement to our marriages on staff that\u2014\r\n\r\nDebra: I would agree with that. \r\n\r\nDave: \u2014marriages are secondary; people that we're trying to reach are primary.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014especially, with young kids and babies. It was hard.\r\n\r\nDave:I was like, \u201cWhat was I thinking?\u201d It was just like, \u201cCome on.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: But Debra, this is really helpful, I think.\r\n\r\nDave:Well, I think it's really helpful; because I think that scenario is not that uncommon\u2014you know better than anybody\u2014in many marriages, where\u2014\r\n\r\nDebra: It could have been anything. It could have been a parking spot; it could have been where you chose to eat at a restaurant. It could have been anything in that moment, where Ann would've been like, \u201cI am done suppressing my needs.\u201d And you had to get to that point,\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014speak them out.\r\n\r\nDebra: \u2014to be honest with you.\r\n\r\nAnn: I think so, too.\r\n\r\nDebra: You have to say, \u201cI'm done; I'm done doing this in the same way that we've done before,\u201d and \u201cSomething needs to change, and here's what it looks like...\u201d God, in His mercy, helped you guys figure that out and kind of put words to it. God, in His mercy, gave Dave the wisdom to be able to say, \u201cIs this what's actually going on underneath the surface?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Wasn't that sweet? Yes. \r\n\r\nDebra: Because the fact that you pieced that together, and were able to help her put it into words, just shows you how hard it was for you to put that into words.\r\n\r\nAnn: Right. And I didn't want to put it into words, at that point; isn't that terrible? When Dave said he prayed, I'm like, \u201cI don't want to pray.\u201d I think some people can feel like that, because I want to just vent all of my emotion.\r\n\r\nDave:I was going to say\u2014we didn't even say I prayed\u2014here's the one little insight I left out. When Ann went upstairs, I'm sitting there with Cody, it's real quiet. I prayed; and I remember this was my prayer, \u201cLord, I'm missing something; I don't know what I'm missing. Help me see what I'm missing.\u201d And then, there it was! I was like, \u201cGod really answered that prayer.\u201d I didn't come up with that wisdom. \r\n\r\nAnn: Totally answered it.\r\n\r\nDave:It was like, \u201cThank You.\u201d\r\n\r\nDebra: Well, let me tell you this: we have these emotional sore spots called \u201ctriggers.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: We've talked about this with you.\r\n\r\nDebra: When you see someone exploding, you know you hit a sore spot. It is not about what's going on; it's about something deeper. You may not have caused the deeper wound, but you're pressing on it. And so the question is: \u201cWhat is the deeper wound I'm pressing on here?\u201d In that moment, for Ann, it was feeling unseen\u2014feeling like she wasn't a priority; feeling unloved\u2014and that goes way back to her childhood, but also patterns in your marriage.\r\n\r\nDave:What was it for me?\r\n\r\nDebra: Well, it doesn't sound like you had the biggest reaction. It sounds like she had a big reaction.\r\n\r\nDave:But I do think\u2014and it's something you said to us on Talk to Me when we were on your show\u2014you sort of dove into my trauma, growing up. You used this term\u2014I've never forgotten\u2014I was like, \u201cI want to write a book called \u201cMirror Marriage: How Your Spouse Is a Mirror to Your Wounds.\u201d\r\n\r\nEven in that moment, I couldn't see it then; but in looking back, it's like Ann was a mirror to my need to perform and be recognized\u2014which is a lie I grew up with: Dad left; Mom left\u2014\"I got to perform to be valued.\u201d Being a pastor on a stage with a mega church is performing: \u201cYou're hurting that right now.\u201d\r\n\r\nDebra: Right; you were living in your patterns.\r\n\r\nDave:And so I couldn't see\u2014in that moment, when she blew up and got mad\u2014she was revealing something about me, which I needed to see. Like you said: \u201cWhen somebody blows up, you hit a sore spot; and there's a root to that.\u201d That's, thankfully, what we were able to see. \r\n\r\nBut I'm thinking there is a couple, listening, like, \u201cThis is our marriage.\u201d It may be: \u201cHe does this,\u201d or \u201cShe does this\u201d; but one feels not seen or not important. You modeled for us\u2014\"How do you do it? How do you bring that up?\u201d \u2014you got to bring that out in the light, and say, \u201cLet's talk. Here\u2019s what I'm feeling.\u201d \r\n\r\nDebra: And I think the best time to talk is not in the heat of the emotion, when everyone's being triggered. I always say, \u201cFight physical with physical\u201d; so when you're having these physical symptoms, and you're overwhelmed with emotion, do something physical to calm yourself down: take a walk; take a break; take a breather\u2014whatever.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014say a prayer. \r\n\r\nDebra: \u2014say a prayer; go outside.\r\n\r\nDave:\u2014work out.\r\n\r\nDebra: And then, when both of you are back online\u2014I always say, \u201cYour brain's back online,\u201d\u2014then we can sit down and talk through it. If you keep hitting a wall, and you just can't talk through it, you need to invite a third party to help you.\r\n\r\nAnn: Hey, I think what we're talking about is great. As you're listening, if there's something on today's episode that you're just clicking with, we want you to know that you're not alone because every single marriage has its fair share of highs, but also lows.\r\n\r\nDave:And if you're like us, you're wondering, \u201cWhere do we get help?\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Exactly. \r\n\r\nDave: \u201cWhere can we go to get help?\u201d Well, first of all, you're getting help right now; and we're thankful that you're listening. But we also want to share one of our favorite resources. It's a free guide that's filled with helpful marriage wisdom from real life couples who've been where you are. And you can grab your free copy\u2014free copy today\u2014at FamilyLife.com\/MarriageHelp. That's FamilyLife.com\/MarriageHelp.\r\n\r\nShelby: That was a beautiful counseling session, huh? I hope you learned a lot by being a fly on the wall during this conversation with the Wilsons. Working out your problems and your conflict is not easy, but it's completely worth doing; because when we reconcile with our spouse, we honor the Prince of Peace Himself, Jesus. I loved it. I'm Shelby Abbott; and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson, with Debra Fileta, on FamilyLife Today. \r\n\r\nDo you follow us on social media? You can head over to Instagram and find us at FamilyLife Insta, or find us on Facebook. Just search for FamilyLife for more regular encouragement about marriage and parenting.\r\n\r\nNow, coming up tomorrow, it's Thanksgiving Day; and I'm so excited for it. Well, Brad Formsma is going to be here to give us insights on teaching kids generosity and fostering a life of kindness. That's coming up tomorrow on Thanksgiving Day; we hope you'll join us. On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. 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