{"id":309773,"date":"2024-11-05T08:00:00","date_gmt":"2024-11-05T08:32:23","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/moving-past-cancel-culture-tim-muehlhoff-sean-mcdowell\/"},"modified":"2024-11-19T04:14:34","modified_gmt":"2024-11-19T09:14:34","slug":"moving-past-cancel-culture-tim-muehlhoff-sean-mcdowell","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/moving-past-cancel-culture-tim-muehlhoff-sean-mcdowell\/","title":{"rendered":"Moving Past Cancel Culture: Tim Muehlhoff &#038; Sean McDowell"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>How do we move away from cancel culture? One way\u2014according to scholars and authors, Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell\u2014is growing in listening skills. Listen in to their conversation with Dave and Ann Wilson for practical help in improving.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>How do we move away from cancel culture? One way\u2014according to Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell\u2014is growing in listening skills. Listen in for help!<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":309774,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/438f01f6-fc4e-4097-b67e-b21201129f75\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:29:03","filesize":"26.65M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2934],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[10882],"cwp_profile":[9849,3245],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-309773","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-relationships","podcast_series-end-the-stalemate-tim-muehlhoff-sean-mcdowell","cwp_profile-dr-sean-mcdowell","cwp_profile-tim-muehlhoff","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/11\/image_c5b2d8.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/309773\/moving-past-cancel-culture-tim-muehlhoff-sean-mcdowell","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/309773\/moving-past-cancel-culture-tim-muehlhoff-sean-mcdowell","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"UdPd6OIaOk\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/moving-past-cancel-culture-tim-muehlhoff-sean-mcdowell\/\">Moving Past Cancel Culture: Tim Muehlhoff &#038; Sean McDowell<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/moving-past-cancel-culture-tim-muehlhoff-sean-mcdowell\/embed\/#?secret=UdPd6OIaOk\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Moving Past Cancel Culture: Tim Muehlhoff &#038; Sean McDowell&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"UdPd6OIaOk\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["438f01f6-fc4e-4097-b67e-b21201129f75"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/438f01f6-fc4e-4097-b67e-b21201129f75\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:29:03"],"filesize":["26.65M"],"_thumbnail_id":["309774"],"show_notes":["\n<ul>\n<li>Connect with Tim Muehlhoff and catch more of their thoughts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.biola.edu\/blogs\/winsome-conviction\">Winsome Conviction Project<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Find previous podcast episodes and articles with Tim <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/profiles\/tim-muehlhoff\/\">here<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Connect with Sean McDowell and catch more of their thoughts at <a href=\"https:\/\/seanmcdowell.org\/\">seanmcdowell.org<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Find more podcast episodes with Sean <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/profiles\/dr-sean-mcdowell\/\">here<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>You find find their book, \"<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/end-the-stalemate-move-past-cancel-culture-to-meaningful-conversations\/\">End the Stalemate: Moving Past Cancel Culture to Meaningful Conversations<\/a>,\" in our shop!<\/li>\n<li>FamilyLife has a free devotional for you from Amberly Neese: \"Finding Common Ground.\" Sign up at <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/content-offers\/finding-common-ground\/\">familylife.com\/findingcommonground<\/a><br \/>\n<hr>\n<\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-11-05.pdf"],"transcript_content":["\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nMoving Past Cancel Culture\r\n\r\nGuests:Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell\r\n\r\nFrom the series:End the Stalemate (Day 2 of 3)\r\n\r\nAir date:November 5, 2024\r\n\r\nSean:If somebody has contempt for me, because I'm being faithful to the message of Jesus, fine\u2014they called Paul delusional; they called him crazy\u2014they crucified Jesus. But if they have contempt, because I failed to love people; or I'm dying on a secondary issue, then that's on me; and I need to repent of that.\r\n\r\nShelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. \r\n\r\nAnn: This is FamilyLife Today!\r\n\r\nDave:Alright; yesterday, I said that I've got two of my favorite thinkers in the studio. I don't know if I agree with that anymore; what do you think? \r\n\r\nAnn: What do you mean?!\r\n\r\nDave: They're brilliant!\r\n\r\nAnn: Yeah?\r\n\r\nDave:I underestimated\u2014what I'm saying.\r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, wait; am I your favorite?\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nDave:Yeah, you're my favorite; and then, I got second and third right behind you. No; we got Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell back in the studio to talk about End the Stalemate. And again, I can introduce you. They're both profs at Biola. They're highly\u2014 do you both have doctorates?\r\n\r\nSean: We do.\r\n\r\nDave:Oh, yeah.\r\n\r\nTim: \u2014in different things; yeah. \r\n\r\nDave:\u201cOkay, we do,\u201d\u2014just throw that out there\u2014we got two doctors on that side of table; \u2014two non-doctors over here.\r\n\r\nTim: It took a long time to get these; so we had to put in a lot of blood, sweat, and tears in it.\r\n\r\nDave:I mean, you are incredible thinkers. And this book, End the Stalemate: Move Past Cancel Culture to Meaningful Conversations, is dynamite. You sent it to us early\u2014the manuscript\u2014asking us to endorse it, and that was an easy endorsement.\r\n\r\nAnn: Well, and you ended yesterday's episode\u2014which if you haven't listened, go back\u2014because you ended it on this cliffhanger of what we're talking about today.\r\n\r\nDave: Well, I mean, we're talking about having meaningful conversations. You did such a good job about preparing your heart, having a relationship. Sean, that is so important!\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014the pre-conversation.\r\n\r\nDave:Yes, and how important a relationship is in the conversation that you're going to have. But then, as I wanted to say yesterday\u2014because this happens at the dinner table; this happens in church pews; it happens everywhere; and it's happening, right now around the country, with the election\u2014and so conversations are happening about really important topics. If you're trying to have a meaningful conversation with somebody you love, and there is a good relationship, but you believe their point is wrong\u2014it's not just a difference of opinion\u2014and we talked yesterday about understanding their perspective.\r\n\r\nAnn: You would say it's not biblical, even; that\u2019s how strong you feel it.\r\n\r\nDave:\u2014maybe, even sinful, that they believe this. You believe that, in your heart of hearts: \u201cThere\u2019s not just a difference of opinion; they are wrong. I am on the side of truth. They're on the side of error and non-truth, and that needs to be stopped.\u201d Again, I'm saying this is what's going on in our brain. How do you approach that conversation?\r\n\r\nSean:It's the assumption that this person is a Christian.\r\n\r\nDave:I would say, \u201cYes.\u201d\r\n\r\nTim: Okay.\r\n\r\nDave:Yeah.And we could do: \u201cThey're not a Christian,\u201d as well.\r\n\r\nSean: Okay, Christian.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes, let's do both. \r\n\r\nDave: Let's say they're a fellow believer; they're a brother or sister in Christ.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014or a child.\r\n\r\nSean:In my better Spirit-filled moments: how I would like to respond is\u2014have the thought: \u201cThere's been a lot of times in my life, where I believed and knew I was right; got more information; and it turned out I was wrong.\u201d Knowing that wants me to ask a lot more questions\u2014clarify what they mean, first; hear them out\u2014that's step number one. I can think of a lot of times, in my life, I've responded back, knowing that they're wrong\u2014and then, they clarify\u2014I go, \u201cOkay, my bad. I didn't hear you out; I didn't understand; didn't have all the data,\u201d et cetera. So let's just make sure: \u201cWe hear people out, first.\u201d \r\n\r\nSecond thing is: \u201cCommunication has three simple pieces: you have the sender; you have the message; and you have the receiver.\u201d Most of us think about the message we want to transmit, and we communicate in a way that makes us feel good. We don't ask the question: \u201cHow is this message best going to be received?\u201d So ask yourself this question: \u201cWhen have I totally believed I'm right about something, and somebody communicates in a way that gets me to rethink and consider another perspective?\u201d \r\n\r\nDoes it help when somebody says, \u201cMcDowell, you're completely wrong; I've studied this; I know.\u201d That doesn't help\u2014an insult doesn't help\u2014like you said in our last discussion, [a bad] tone doesn't help. \u201cHow do I most help this person reconsider, if in fact, I'm right?\u201d Jesus communicated\u2014primarily, He told stories; and He asked questions. Between the Gospels and Acts, we have 340 questions that Jesus asked. In Paul's letters, there's 262.\r\n\r\nTim: Wow.\r\n\r\nSean:\u201cSo let me make sure I understand your point; walk me through your evidence for it,\u201d \u201cHave you considered this other perspective? How would you respond if I made this case?\u201d \r\n\r\nNow, there's a point where I'll try to be as charitable as I can be; and then, there does come a point, where you say, \u201cHonestly, I've thought about this more than you have. And that's crazy and you're digging in heels and you're wrong.\u201d But we tend to start there rather than end there.\r\n\r\nAnn: Would you ever say that, \u201cYou are wrong\u201d; or would you say, \u201cI don't agree\u201d?\r\n\r\nSean:Well, it depends on the relationship. If I have a certain relationship, I've told people\/I've said, \u201cI've studied this more than you.\u201d In fact, I've had people tell me certain things on the fate of the apostles. I did my doctoral dissertation on that, and I'm just finishing up a ten-year update of it. And just, literally yesterday, someone said something, and given the relationship, I said, \u201cI have studied this way more than you, and you're wrong about this.\u201d Now, I didn't do it arrogantly; I didn't do it to make them feel bad. I just made a point: \u201cYou're out of your depth. This is something I know that I know,\u201d and so I said it. But those tend to be the exceptions rather than the rule, based on a relationship that's there.\r\n\r\nTim: But that's amazing about the questions; I didn't know that. \u201cHow many questions are in the Gospels?\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Tell me what those are.\r\n\r\nTim: That's really amazing. \r\n\r\nAnn: Jesus asks how many?\r\n\r\nSean:So a friend of mine, who's still with Cru\u2014actually, Bob Tiede has books on this Re-study the Gospels\u2014there's one question in Acts; there's three hundred forty questions that Jesus asks; in Paul's letters, there's two hundred sixty-two questions.\r\n\r\nTim: Wow; this is why his name comes first on the book; this is why it's right there. \r\n\r\nHey, let me just add one thing to what Sean's saying. So let's go to John Gottman, real quick, right? We're all fans of Gottman. The first 30 seconds\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:Well, tell our listeners a little bit about John.\r\n\r\nTim: Oh, John Gottman is probably one of the top relationship experts in the world. He's not a believer\u2014so you have to sift it\u2014but everybody uses his research. Christian writers use it all the time. The drop-the-mic moment, from Gottman, is the first 30 seconds: sets the tone for the entire conversation.\r\n\r\nSo when you prepare your heart\u2014now, I'm going to actually jump into this\u2014so imagine Sean. If what Sean said\u2014you flipped it\u2014you started with the \u201cYou are wrong; I've studied this.\u201d Well, that's going to set it in a negative spiral. And Sean's not advocating that; he's saying: \u201cTell me what you believe,\u201d \u201cClarify your terms,\u201d \u201cHelp me understand your background.\u201d \r\n\r\nWe do a whole chapter on surfacing a person's perspective: \r\n\r\n\u201cWho are the people you listen to?\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cWhat books do you read?\u201d \u201cWhat Ted talks?\u201d \u201cWhat podcasts?\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cHelp me understand this background; and then, emotionally, help me understand your perspective, why you think this is right.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnd then, I would just add, \u201cFind common ground\u201d; because the person's perspective is not wrong\u2014A to Z\u2014most likely. I'd find things that I appreciate within their perspective:\r\n\r\n\u201cI love that you care about what the Bible says.\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cI love the fact that you study the Bible.\u201d \r\n\r\n\u201cNow, listen: do I ultimately think you're misinterpreting sections of the Bible?\u2014I do. But I love the fact that you're studying the Bible, and you're rooting your perspective in the Bible.\u201d \r\n\r\nSee, this is all starting a positive communication spiral. \r\n\r\nNow, we can start a negative spiral, by saying, \u201cOkay, dude, that was whacked!\u201d What you're saying is: \u201cYou can't read your Bible and come up with that conclusion\u201d; that's what we call \u201ccalling out.\u201d I try to shame you and shut down the conversation: \u201cThere's no way you could read Jesus and come up with that perspective,\u201d \u201cWell, sorry, I read Jesus; I think He\u2026\u201d \r\n\r\n[Instead], we want to \u201ccall it in\u201d; which is, \u201cThat's fascinating that you interpret Him that way. What books have you read?\u2014people you've talked to?\u2014podcasts you've listened to?\u201d where you kind of started to think this way?\u201d It's like, \u201cOh, okay; I read this one book\u201d; and then, that kind of opens the conversation, where it's like, \u201cOh, tell me about that book. Who's that person?\u201d I would love it if somebody did that with me\u2014a non-Christian or a Christian\u2014\"Well, tell me more about your perspective. Have you listened to\u2026\u201d I would introduce him to C.S. Lewis and different people. \r\n\r\nThat'd be a great energetic way; but at the end of the conversation\u2014it's what Sean's saying: \u201cYou're building a bridge, but you got to send something across the bridge.\u201d So now, I do say, \u201cHonestly, as much as I think I understand what you're saying, I have to say I do disagree. I don't think Paul would support that. I don't think that's a fair way to interpret Jesus. And I do think the Bible would go against that position. I might be wrong,\u201d\u2014I love including that\u2014\"I might be wrong\u201d; because I love what you said, Sean: \u201cThere have been times I've been spectacularly wrong, and I've had to go back and say, \u2018Wow, I was probably too strident on that; I probably was\u2019\u201d; because good Christians disagree about a lot of issues.\r\n\r\nSean: Amen.\r\n\r\nAnn: But your tone is incredibly gracious.\r\n\r\nTim: I love what you just said: \u201c\u2026on a good Spirit-filled day.\u201d When we speak at FamilyLife marriage conferences, just like you guys.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave:\u2014Weekend to Remember\u00ae. \r\n\r\nTim: My wife and I\u2014we always say this\u2014\"Let me present to you Tim and Noreen on a good day.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: That's good.\r\n\r\nTim: \u201cOn a good day, we do this; on a not so good day, we\u2026\u201d I think that's really good to say: \u201cThere are times I feel like I'm Spirit-filled; but there's other times, I'm just annoyed, angry, and I want to fight.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:Well, it's interesting: I didn't think of this until you both are just talking about this. Ann and I were speaking last summer in the Branson, Missouri, area; and we had Saturday afternoon off. We had to speak that night to football coaches from around the country about marriage; it was really a great conference. And they said, \u201cHey, there's this Sight &amp;amp; Sound Theater in Branson that has the show, Esther; it's phenomenal.\u201d We go do it\u2014we're sitting there\u2014it's phenomenal. Live camels coming out.\r\n\r\nAnn: We've never been to one; it's great!\r\n\r\nDave:Yeah, it was phenomenal; it's the story of Esther. \r\n\r\nAnyway, all that to say, intermission happens. There's nobody sitting like five seats beside me. All of a sudden, this guy sits down, right beside me during intermission, and leans\/like lays on me\u2014some stranger dude\u2014and I'm looking at Ann. I just turned; I go, \u201cDude, what's up?\u201d He goes, \u201cDave Wilson!\u201d I go, \u201cDo I know you?\u201d He goes, \u201cDude! You led me to Christ!\u201d\r\n\r\nSean:Oh, my goodness.\r\n\r\nDave:I go, \u201cWho are you?\u201d He goes, \u201cYou don't remember me? I was at your church in Michigan, 20 years ago. Man Up is what we called our men's weekend\u2014bad title, by the way; wouldn't use it anymore\u2014but that's what we called it then.\r\n\r\nSean:We\u2019ll edit that; don't worry.\r\n\r\nDave:And I remember this conversation; he goes, \u201cI'm the guy that came up to you in the lobby, and I was an atheist.\u201d I go, \u201cDude, I remember that!\u201d He goes, \u201cI'm sitting back there, and I saw your bald head; and I go, \u2018I think that's the guy that led me to Christ.\u2019\u201d \r\n\r\nAnyway, here's the story. I'm speaking at this thing; and I say from the stage, at one point, \u201cI've wrestled with skepticism my whole life. I need evidence,\u201d and talked about my journey. He walks up to me in the lobby, and there's nobody there. He goes, \u201cI'm an atheist; I don't believe any of this stuff. I'm here because a buddy brought me here, and sounds like you've had the same kind of journey. I don't think any of this is true. What do you have to say to that?\u201d He was pretty antagonistic at the moment. \r\n\r\nI'm thinking about that conversation, and I remember I looked at him\u2014and I didn't know I was doing what Tim just said\u2014and I said: \u201cYeah, who are you reading?\u201d \u201cWho are you studying?\u201d \u201cWhere do you get your thoughts from?\u201d And he started listening off. I go, \u201cYeah, I read all those guys.\u201d I go, man, \u201cThey're really good thinkers; they're amazing thinkers. I think they're wrong about some things. You want to talk about it?\u201d We had a conversation\u2014probably, a 20-minute conversation in a lobby, with people walking by him\u2014and he came to Christ. As I heard you say that, I was like, \u201cPart of the reason he wanted to talk is\u2014I said what you just said\u2014\u201cTell me about who you're listening to.\u201d I didn't demean these guys\u2014you know them all\u2014they\u2019re all the thinkers in the atheistic world; and he came to Christ about that. \r\n\r\nBut here's my question\u2014because when you were talking about all that\u2014I thought, when you mentioned Gottman, one of the things that I love, that he talks about, is contempt. He talks about the things that'll destroy a marriage and any relationship\u2014criticism\u2014but contempt he says is the biggest one\u2014because it isn't just, \u201cI'm critical\u201d; you're thinking, \u201cI think you're an idiot for thinking that.\u201d \u201cI think my wife is nuts; she's wrong, and she's a bad person because of it.\u201d Talk about that; that happens in these conversations. People feel our contempt toward them. They're not just a wrong opinion; we think they're nuts. \r\n\r\nAnn: I think that\u2019s what we\u2019re seeing on social media platforms, too: \u201cYou are the dumbest person.\u201d\r\n\r\nTim: Let me hand it off to Sean in a second. But we had on Arthur Brooks on our podcast\u2014we do the Winsome Conviction podcast, me and Dr. Rick Langer\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: You quote him in the book. \r\n\r\nTim: We do! He's a Harvard researcher; and he said this, \u201cAmerica does not have an anger problem; we have a contempt problem.\u201d And we said, \u201cOkay, what's contempt?\u201d He said, \u201cAnger is: \u2018I can be mad at you, but I'm staying in the marriage,\u201d \u201cI can be mad at you, and we're still neighbors,\u201d \u201c\u2026we're still friends.\u201d \u201c\u2026we still go to the same church.\u201d Contempt is: \u201cThis church would be better off without you,\u201d \u201cThis country would be better off without you\u201d; that is contempt. He said, \u201cContempt is killing this country.\u201d \r\n\r\nI think back to what Paul said, \u201cProtect unity,\u201d in the church at Ephesus. Churches are splitting over everything; I think that's what's killing us today. Let's hang into the conversation. Let's remember what unifies us as we go to the points of disagreement. But I think Paul\u2014remember, in Romans 14, he's talking to Jewish converts; he's talking to Gentile converts, who disagree about days and diets\u2014he says, \u201cListen, I'm not going to settle this one; but I do not want you to stop the work of God because of food. And second, I do not want you to have contempt towards each other.\u201d I think we're violating Romans 14 all over the place. \r\n\r\nSo I think it's great, when a family member that you really disagree with, I think it's really good\u2014before you get to that disagreement\u2014to affirm, \u201cHey, we're family.\u201d I remember my mom saying to me, \u201cBlood is thicker than water; they will always be your brothers.\u201d I think that's great to say, \u201cWe're family, but we do really disagree about this issue. We see it very differently\u2014you quote the Bible; I quote the Bible\u2014we're just going to have to live with this disagreement, because we're family.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:Yeah. I mean, Sean, you do this better than anybody I know. You don't have contempt. \r\n\r\nAnn: You navigate it so well.\r\n\r\nDave: You love them\u2014you're tender; you listen\u2014you're the model!\r\n\r\nSean:I don't know about that. I could tell plenty of stories, probably from this week alone, of falling short. \r\n\r\nHere's the principle I try to live with on contempt: \r\n\r\nThere are people in our culture who have contempt for the Christian faith and Christians because of what we believe\u2014whether that's about Jesus, whether that's about marriage\u2014I have no control if someone's going to have contempt for me. And some will\u2014in fact, some have called this an anti-Christian age\u2014because of the positions we hold are so intolerant and bigoted on issues of marriage and sexuality. If somebody has contempt for me, because I'm being faithful to message of Jesus, fine\u2014they called Paul delusional; they called him crazy\u2014they crucified Jesus. But if they have contempt, because I failed to love people; or I'm dying on a secondary issue, then that's on me; and I need to repent of that.\r\n\r\nIt's discouraging, and it's distressing; and it, literally, can be depressing if I look at the way we communicate in our culture today. I try to bring back, and say, \u201cWhat can I control?\u201d \u201cAm I being faithful?\u201d \u201cAm I actually loving people?\u201d One of my principles is: \u201cI want to be as gracious as I can be without compromising biblical truth.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: That's good.\r\n\r\nSean:And exactly where that biblical truth is\u2014that's where some of the debate comes in\u2014fine; but that's my conscience before the Lord. \r\n\r\nI found, when people have contempt for me, and I say, \u201cYou know what? I've shown nothing, as far as I can tell, searching my heart, but love for you. And I've stayed faithful to biblical commandments that I've been as gracious as I can be.\u201d It hurts, but I can live with that; that's what I would encourage Christians to do. \r\n\r\nWe also see that, within the Christian fold, contempt for other people, who have different positions. And I go: \u201cWhat can I control?\u201d \u201cAm I being faithful?\u201d \u201cAm I trying to act in love?\u201d People are going to second guess a whole bunch of things\u2014that's all I can control; that's all I'm in charge of\u2014and I think, if more people would just try to frame their conversations that way, I think we'd, at least, see some progress.\r\n\r\nAnn: Guys, why are we seeing the contempt today more than ever?\u2014it feels like.\r\n\r\nTim: I would say tribalism is a huge thing. We are siloed from each other; we don't have commonalities as Americans anymore. When we were in Capitol Hill, we suggested to some Christian leaders: \u201cReach across the aisle and go have coffee together.\u201d G.K. Chesterton, the great defender of the faith\u2014after he would debate H.G. Wells, Rudyard Kipling, they would literally go to the pub\u2014they would sit in the pub, and process the debate, and laugh. We actually used that illustration. I'll never forget, when high-ranking officials said, \u201cHave coffee? We don't even share the same elevators.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Wow!\r\n\r\nTim: Well, when you don't share the same elevators\u2014when there's no commonality anymore\u2014you demonize the other side; because you no longer know anybody from the other side, because your group watches all the same news programs. We go to a church that thinks exactly like we do; we only talk to people who think like we do, and we so demonize the other side. When you finally do meet somebody from the other side, you're like, \u201cOh, you people are crazy! You're seriously crazy, and I'm going to set you straight because of how crazy you are.\u201d\r\n\r\nWe really do encourage: \u201cYou need to get used to hearing the other side. It doesn't mean you agree with it.\u201d And that's why\u2014again, EndTheStalemate.com is this website; you're going to listen to two Christians\u2014you're going to disagree, maybe, with one of them; but get used to that. There's another great website called AllSides.com, where you go\u2014and it presents the left, the right, and the center\u2014the best representatives. We just need to get used to hearing perspectives that's outside of our tribe. \r\n\r\nI think, Ann, because of social media, it's so easy to be in that electronic tribe with algorithms and stuff like that. I think that's what's really kind of changed us a little bit is social media has kind of poured some rhetorical gasoline on the fire.\r\n\r\nAnn: So we really don't hear the other side.\r\n\r\nSean:So here's a simple test everybody could do. This is, maybe, dangerous; but scroll through your podcasts, and just look and ask yourself: \u201cHow many support what I already believe?\u201d \u201cHow many sides are against it?\u201d Now, it doesn't have to be 50\/50; but if you don't have, at least, some representative podcasts to people who see the world differently, then you're in a silo\u2014and everybody else is stupid\u2014because they don't see the world as you do. \r\n\r\nSo I think to answer your question: \u201cThere's a relational piece.\u201d If you don't know somebody who sees the world differently, then it's abstract. And so you speak about atheists, or Republicans, or Democrats, or whatever group you want to put people in as an abstract enemy; but when you know Joe, or Kim, or Barbara\u2014or fill in the blank\u2014it becomes personal; so there's a relational piece. \r\n\r\n\u201cThere's also an intellectual piece.\u201d If you only read books and listen to podcasts\u2014that agree with you, and follow people on Twitter that agree with you\u2014then, of course, you're going to think the other side is crazy and have contempt for them for not seeing, the right way, the world is.\r\n\r\nDave:My first week of seminary\u2014I don't remember if it was Scott Rae\u2014who you guys know\u2014 \r\n\r\nTim: Oh, yeah. \r\n\r\nDave: \u2014or J.P. Morgan. \r\n\r\nSean:He\u2019s my co-host, by the way\u2014Scott Rae.\r\n\r\nTim: \u2014the Think Biblically podcast. \r\n\r\nAnn: I didn\u2019t know Scott Rae was.\r\n\r\nSean: Yeah, I\u2019ve known Scott for years.\r\n\r\nDave:They were teaching, at the International School of Theology, where I went in 1982. And one of the classes\u2014I think it was Scott\u2014was on writing and speaking. First day of class\u2014I'll never forget\u2014he said, \u201cHey, don't just read the Bible; don't just read Christian thinkers. You want to read the best writers in the country?\u2014read Sports Illustrated.\u201d I  go, \u201cWhat?!\u201d And somebody in our class, actually, raised their hand, and said, \u201cNo, I don't want to read that stuff; it\u2019s non-Christian thinking. I want to keep my mind pure.\u201d And he goes, \u201cYeah, you need to know what non-Christians think; and they're really good writers.\u201d\r\n\r\nSean:Why don't we read other sides?\r\n\r\nDave:Why don't we?\r\n\r\nSean:I think a big reason is we're insecure in our own position, and we're threatened by people who see the world differently. I do this thing\u2014this atheist roleplay, where I put on glasses in our roleplaying atheists, and I take questions; respond as an atheist could\u2014and then, when I'm done, people get defensive; they get angry; they call me names. It's crazy! \r\n\r\nAnd the first question I typically ask is, \u201cHow did you treat your atheist guests?\u201d And their eyes are like, \u201cYou got me.\u201d I'll say, \u201cGive me individual words that describe the way you treated me.\u201d One of the most common words is \u201cHostile\u201d\u2014comes up all the time\u2014and \u201cDefensive.\u201d I say, \u201cWell, why do we get defensive?\u201d Well, if you don't know what you believe, and why you believe it, we're defensive at somebody else, who sees the world differently. So if you only listen to people who agree with your side, you probably have no depth; you probably don't really know what you believe and why you believe it. So you just want people to reinforce your shallow convictions. But if we're supposed to care about truth, we shouldn't be threatened by people who see the world differently.\r\n\r\nAnn:I think it's good. We've gotten into the practice\u2014I probably more than you, Dave, just because I'm a book reader and listener\u2014but asking our kids\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:\u2014and I'm not\u2014there you go.\r\n\r\nAnn: No, no! I mean, nonfiction\u2014I would read more\u2014that's bad. \r\n\r\nTim: First 30 seconds\u2026\r\n\r\nAnn: You read fiction. You don\u2019t read as much\u2014\r\n\r\nSean: So our book doesn\u2019t count; I\u2019m kidding.\r\n\r\nAnn: Dave\u2019s reading your book. \r\n\r\nSo I'll ask our kids, like: \u201cHey guys, what are you reading right now?\u201d \u201cWhat are you listening to right now?\u201d \u201cWhat are you watching?\u201d And then, \u201cTell me one of the things that I should listen to or watch that you have loved.\u201d That's always a little risky, because I may hate them. But I like that they're willing, like, \u201cOh, mom, you're going to listen to this,\u201d or \u201c\u2026watch this,\u201d or \u201cTell me what you think of this\u2026\u201d I love that. And you do that, too, Dave. \r\n\r\nDave:She\u2019s trying to\/she\u2019s trying to put me back. No, I think one of the\u2014and what you guys are saying\u2014I love hearing differing opinions. I love hearing contrary thoughts\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: You do.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014on really important issues. I want to understand and dialogue about that.\r\n\r\nAnn: And you've been amazing with our kids about that.\r\n\r\nDave:Oh, I want to do it. I remember, as a guitar player, when they were teenagers, listening to music, I'm like, \u201cHey, I want to learn this song and know why you like it.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: I'm like, \u201cThis is of Satan!\u201d And I'd throw it in the garbage. And so Dave was a really good balance for me\u2014of watching him\u2014say, \u201cTell me why you love this guy. Tell me what is it that draws you to him.\u201d You're really good at that.\r\n\r\nTim: So you're a rarity though. In cancel culture today, Dave, you both would be a rarity. \r\n\r\nWe had a pastor on our podcast, who drew a circle around his church\u2014a ten-mile radius\u2014and said, \u201cI'm going to engage every religious leader in this ten-mile radius. We're not going to be in a cocoon anymore; we're going to engage.\u201d So he did; there was a mosque.\r\n\r\nBy the way, Sean just did a great series, where you went to a mosque, and he went to a Hindu temple to do perspective taking. Oh, it's fascinating; he does a great job. \r\n\r\nAnn: Really: Interesting. \r\n\r\nTim: So he had these [different worldview thinking] people and would engage them. And got more pushback of people saying, \u201cWhy would we give the platform to this person?\u201d \u201cWhy would I fill my head with those unbiblical thoughts?\u201d\r\n\r\n And all I can say is, \u201cWhen Paul, in Acts 17, he's going to address the men of Athens. By the way, listen to his first 30 seconds; he chooses to say, \u2018Men of Athens, I observe you're very religious in many ways.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Isn't he a master of communication?\r\n\r\nTim: And then, he quotes a poet; he quotes one of their poets. So I do think we need\u2014 \r\n\r\nDave:\u2014which would be a secular person.\r\n\r\nTim: Yes, but we need to be careful; right? Again, our students, when we have them do these perspective-taking exercises, they are under our tutelage. We're not just throwing them to the wolves: we're teaching them skills; and then, we're having them do it. Again, go to EndTheStalemate.com\u2014we're giving you skills\u2014we're not just launching you into this perspective.\r\n\r\nDave:And then, you even say in the book, you don't do this with first-year students.\r\n\r\nTim: Yeah, I'm careful; I teach.\r\n\r\nDave:You want them\u2014\r\n\r\nTim: Yes; I teach a very semi-controversial class called \u201cEngaging in Diverse Perspectives.\u201d Now, again, these are seniors; this is a 400-level class. My goodness\u2014if the seniors are not ready for this\/if the seniors are not ready for this\u2014we\u2019ve got problems. \r\n\r\nSo yeah, you raise your kids, because you have the long view; we're slowly introducing them to topics. Then I think you really kick it in when high school comes\u2014we're talking about things; we're watching news programs we don't traditionally agree with\u2014we're doing it as a family, and the kids are used to listening to counter-perspective. So it's a slow way to bring them. But I think we need to just really start thinking about our kids: \u201cIs our family a cocoon? Are we really isolated from people that we disagree with?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:And I would say, tomorrow\u2014because we're going to have another day on this\u2014\"How do we have the dinner conversation?\u201d We've talked pre-; we need to talk in-the-moment; and also, post-. \u201cBut walk us through the actual conversation; because when we get in it, sometimes, things happen in real time; and you don't follow the plan. You preset up; and then, it gets ugly. So help us.\u201d\r\n\r\nTim: We\u2019d love to.\r\n\r\nShelby: I'm Shelby Abbott; and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson, with Sean McDowell and Tim Muehlhoff, on FamilyLife Today. Tim and Sean have written a book called End the Stalemate. This book is really for anyone who feels really just disheartened by the current state of the public conversation that's happening, and for someone who wants to learn how to foster meaningful and respectful conversations in a culture of division. If that sounds appealing to you, you can get your copy of Tim and Sean's book, End the Stalemate, right now, by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com. Or you could click on the link that's in the show notes, or feel free to give us a call at 800-358-6329 to request your copy. Again, that number is 800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word, TODAY. \r\n\r\nWe've been talking about this all day today; we were talking about it yesterday, as well. Many of us are just tired of the tension and division that exists with our family members, with our friends, with social media that we're on; even during family gatherings around the kitchen table. Yet Psalm 1:33 tells us that it's good for believers to live in unity with one another. So the question is: \u201cHow do we do that when everybody seems to be angry all the time?\u201d \r\n\r\nWell, I'm excited to invite you to join us, here, at FamilyLife for a five-week video series that's hosted by our friend\u2014author and comedian\u2014Amberly Neese. It's called \u201cMoving Toward Each Other in the Middle of a Divisive World.\u201d In it, Amberly really guides us on how to build peace with people in our lives when our differing thoughts, and opinions, and beliefs threaten to create division. You could sign up for this free five-week video series by going online to FamilyLife.com\/FindingCommonGround. You could click on a link for it in the show notes. Or again, you could head over to FamilyLife.com\/FindingCommonGround.\r\n\r\nNow, coming up tomorrow: \u201cHow do we have meaningful conversations with others who have a different opinion than us?\u201d\u2014especially, in family settings during things like the holidays and political times, like the time that we're in, exactly right now. Well, we'll talk about that with Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell tomorrow on FamilyLife Today. We hope you'll join us. On behalf of Dave Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. 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do we move away from cancel culture? One way\u2014according to Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell\u2014is growing in listening skills. Listen in for help!","meta_box":{"show_notes":"\n<ul>\n<li>Connect with Tim Muehlhoff and catch more of their thoughts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.biola.edu\/blogs\/winsome-conviction\">Winsome Conviction Project<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Find previous podcast episodes and articles with Tim <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/profiles\/tim-muehlhoff\/\">here<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Connect with Sean McDowell and catch more of their thoughts at <a href=\"https:\/\/seanmcdowell.org\/\">seanmcdowell.org<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Find more podcast episodes with Sean <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/profiles\/dr-sean-mcdowell\/\">here<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>You find find their book, \"<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/end-the-stalemate-move-past-cancel-culture-to-meaningful-conversations\/\">End the Stalemate: Moving Past Cancel Culture to Meaningful Conversations<\/a>,\" in our shop!<\/li>\n<li>FamilyLife has a free devotional for you from Amberly Neese: \"Finding Common Ground.\" Sign up at <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/content-offers\/finding-common-ground\/\">familylife.com\/findingcommonground<\/a><br \/>\n<hr>\n<\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-11-05.pdf","transcript_content":"\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nMoving Past Cancel Culture\r\n\r\nGuests:Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell\r\n\r\nFrom the series:End the Stalemate (Day 2 of 3)\r\n\r\nAir date:November 5, 2024\r\n\r\nSean:If somebody has contempt for me, because I'm being faithful to the message of Jesus, fine\u2014they called Paul delusional; they called him crazy\u2014they crucified Jesus. But if they have contempt, because I failed to love people; or I'm dying on a secondary issue, then that's on me; and I need to repent of that.\r\n\r\nShelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. \r\n\r\nAnn: This is FamilyLife Today!\r\n\r\nDave:Alright; yesterday, I said that I've got two of my favorite thinkers in the studio. I don't know if I agree with that anymore; what do you think? \r\n\r\nAnn: What do you mean?!\r\n\r\nDave: They're brilliant!\r\n\r\nAnn: Yeah?\r\n\r\nDave:I underestimated\u2014what I'm saying.\r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, wait; am I your favorite?\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nDave:Yeah, you're my favorite; and then, I got second and third right behind you. No; we got Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell back in the studio to talk about End the Stalemate. And again, I can introduce you. They're both profs at Biola. They're highly\u2014 do you both have doctorates?\r\n\r\nSean: We do.\r\n\r\nDave:Oh, yeah.\r\n\r\nTim: \u2014in different things; yeah. \r\n\r\nDave:\u201cOkay, we do,\u201d\u2014just throw that out there\u2014we got two doctors on that side of table; \u2014two non-doctors over here.\r\n\r\nTim: It took a long time to get these; so we had to put in a lot of blood, sweat, and tears in it.\r\n\r\nDave:I mean, you are incredible thinkers. And this book, End the Stalemate: Move Past Cancel Culture to Meaningful Conversations, is dynamite. You sent it to us early\u2014the manuscript\u2014asking us to endorse it, and that was an easy endorsement.\r\n\r\nAnn: Well, and you ended yesterday's episode\u2014which if you haven't listened, go back\u2014because you ended it on this cliffhanger of what we're talking about today.\r\n\r\nDave: Well, I mean, we're talking about having meaningful conversations. You did such a good job about preparing your heart, having a relationship. Sean, that is so important!\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014the pre-conversation.\r\n\r\nDave:Yes, and how important a relationship is in the conversation that you're going to have. But then, as I wanted to say yesterday\u2014because this happens at the dinner table; this happens in church pews; it happens everywhere; and it's happening, right now around the country, with the election\u2014and so conversations are happening about really important topics. If you're trying to have a meaningful conversation with somebody you love, and there is a good relationship, but you believe their point is wrong\u2014it's not just a difference of opinion\u2014and we talked yesterday about understanding their perspective.\r\n\r\nAnn: You would say it's not biblical, even; that\u2019s how strong you feel it.\r\n\r\nDave:\u2014maybe, even sinful, that they believe this. You believe that, in your heart of hearts: \u201cThere\u2019s not just a difference of opinion; they are wrong. I am on the side of truth. They're on the side of error and non-truth, and that needs to be stopped.\u201d Again, I'm saying this is what's going on in our brain. How do you approach that conversation?\r\n\r\nSean:It's the assumption that this person is a Christian.\r\n\r\nDave:I would say, \u201cYes.\u201d\r\n\r\nTim: Okay.\r\n\r\nDave:Yeah.And we could do: \u201cThey're not a Christian,\u201d as well.\r\n\r\nSean: Okay, Christian.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes, let's do both. \r\n\r\nDave: Let's say they're a fellow believer; they're a brother or sister in Christ.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014or a child.\r\n\r\nSean:In my better Spirit-filled moments: how I would like to respond is\u2014have the thought: \u201cThere's been a lot of times in my life, where I believed and knew I was right; got more information; and it turned out I was wrong.\u201d Knowing that wants me to ask a lot more questions\u2014clarify what they mean, first; hear them out\u2014that's step number one. I can think of a lot of times, in my life, I've responded back, knowing that they're wrong\u2014and then, they clarify\u2014I go, \u201cOkay, my bad. I didn't hear you out; I didn't understand; didn't have all the data,\u201d et cetera. So let's just make sure: \u201cWe hear people out, first.\u201d \r\n\r\nSecond thing is: \u201cCommunication has three simple pieces: you have the sender; you have the message; and you have the receiver.\u201d Most of us think about the message we want to transmit, and we communicate in a way that makes us feel good. We don't ask the question: \u201cHow is this message best going to be received?\u201d So ask yourself this question: \u201cWhen have I totally believed I'm right about something, and somebody communicates in a way that gets me to rethink and consider another perspective?\u201d \r\n\r\nDoes it help when somebody says, \u201cMcDowell, you're completely wrong; I've studied this; I know.\u201d That doesn't help\u2014an insult doesn't help\u2014like you said in our last discussion, [a bad] tone doesn't help. \u201cHow do I most help this person reconsider, if in fact, I'm right?\u201d Jesus communicated\u2014primarily, He told stories; and He asked questions. Between the Gospels and Acts, we have 340 questions that Jesus asked. In Paul's letters, there's 262.\r\n\r\nTim: Wow.\r\n\r\nSean:\u201cSo let me make sure I understand your point; walk me through your evidence for it,\u201d \u201cHave you considered this other perspective? How would you respond if I made this case?\u201d \r\n\r\nNow, there's a point where I'll try to be as charitable as I can be; and then, there does come a point, where you say, \u201cHonestly, I've thought about this more than you have. And that's crazy and you're digging in heels and you're wrong.\u201d But we tend to start there rather than end there.\r\n\r\nAnn: Would you ever say that, \u201cYou are wrong\u201d; or would you say, \u201cI don't agree\u201d?\r\n\r\nSean:Well, it depends on the relationship. If I have a certain relationship, I've told people\/I've said, \u201cI've studied this more than you.\u201d In fact, I've had people tell me certain things on the fate of the apostles. I did my doctoral dissertation on that, and I'm just finishing up a ten-year update of it. And just, literally yesterday, someone said something, and given the relationship, I said, \u201cI have studied this way more than you, and you're wrong about this.\u201d Now, I didn't do it arrogantly; I didn't do it to make them feel bad. I just made a point: \u201cYou're out of your depth. This is something I know that I know,\u201d and so I said it. But those tend to be the exceptions rather than the rule, based on a relationship that's there.\r\n\r\nTim: But that's amazing about the questions; I didn't know that. \u201cHow many questions are in the Gospels?\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Tell me what those are.\r\n\r\nTim: That's really amazing. \r\n\r\nAnn: Jesus asks how many?\r\n\r\nSean:So a friend of mine, who's still with Cru\u2014actually, Bob Tiede has books on this Re-study the Gospels\u2014there's one question in Acts; there's three hundred forty questions that Jesus asks; in Paul's letters, there's two hundred sixty-two questions.\r\n\r\nTim: Wow; this is why his name comes first on the book; this is why it's right there. \r\n\r\nHey, let me just add one thing to what Sean's saying. So let's go to John Gottman, real quick, right? We're all fans of Gottman. The first 30 seconds\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:Well, tell our listeners a little bit about John.\r\n\r\nTim: Oh, John Gottman is probably one of the top relationship experts in the world. He's not a believer\u2014so you have to sift it\u2014but everybody uses his research. Christian writers use it all the time. The drop-the-mic moment, from Gottman, is the first 30 seconds: sets the tone for the entire conversation.\r\n\r\nSo when you prepare your heart\u2014now, I'm going to actually jump into this\u2014so imagine Sean. If what Sean said\u2014you flipped it\u2014you started with the \u201cYou are wrong; I've studied this.\u201d Well, that's going to set it in a negative spiral. And Sean's not advocating that; he's saying: \u201cTell me what you believe,\u201d \u201cClarify your terms,\u201d \u201cHelp me understand your background.\u201d \r\n\r\nWe do a whole chapter on surfacing a person's perspective: \r\n\r\n\u201cWho are the people you listen to?\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cWhat books do you read?\u201d \u201cWhat Ted talks?\u201d \u201cWhat podcasts?\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cHelp me understand this background; and then, emotionally, help me understand your perspective, why you think this is right.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnd then, I would just add, \u201cFind common ground\u201d; because the person's perspective is not wrong\u2014A to Z\u2014most likely. I'd find things that I appreciate within their perspective:\r\n\r\n\u201cI love that you care about what the Bible says.\u201d\r\n\r\n\u201cI love the fact that you study the Bible.\u201d \r\n\r\n\u201cNow, listen: do I ultimately think you're misinterpreting sections of the Bible?\u2014I do. But I love the fact that you're studying the Bible, and you're rooting your perspective in the Bible.\u201d \r\n\r\nSee, this is all starting a positive communication spiral. \r\n\r\nNow, we can start a negative spiral, by saying, \u201cOkay, dude, that was whacked!\u201d What you're saying is: \u201cYou can't read your Bible and come up with that conclusion\u201d; that's what we call \u201ccalling out.\u201d I try to shame you and shut down the conversation: \u201cThere's no way you could read Jesus and come up with that perspective,\u201d \u201cWell, sorry, I read Jesus; I think He\u2026\u201d \r\n\r\n[Instead], we want to \u201ccall it in\u201d; which is, \u201cThat's fascinating that you interpret Him that way. What books have you read?\u2014people you've talked to?\u2014podcasts you've listened to?\u201d where you kind of started to think this way?\u201d It's like, \u201cOh, okay; I read this one book\u201d; and then, that kind of opens the conversation, where it's like, \u201cOh, tell me about that book. Who's that person?\u201d I would love it if somebody did that with me\u2014a non-Christian or a Christian\u2014\"Well, tell me more about your perspective. Have you listened to\u2026\u201d I would introduce him to C.S. Lewis and different people. \r\n\r\nThat'd be a great energetic way; but at the end of the conversation\u2014it's what Sean's saying: \u201cYou're building a bridge, but you got to send something across the bridge.\u201d So now, I do say, \u201cHonestly, as much as I think I understand what you're saying, I have to say I do disagree. I don't think Paul would support that. I don't think that's a fair way to interpret Jesus. And I do think the Bible would go against that position. I might be wrong,\u201d\u2014I love including that\u2014\"I might be wrong\u201d; because I love what you said, Sean: \u201cThere have been times I've been spectacularly wrong, and I've had to go back and say, \u2018Wow, I was probably too strident on that; I probably was\u2019\u201d; because good Christians disagree about a lot of issues.\r\n\r\nSean: Amen.\r\n\r\nAnn: But your tone is incredibly gracious.\r\n\r\nTim: I love what you just said: \u201c\u2026on a good Spirit-filled day.\u201d When we speak at FamilyLife marriage conferences, just like you guys.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave:\u2014Weekend to Remember\u00ae. \r\n\r\nTim: My wife and I\u2014we always say this\u2014\"Let me present to you Tim and Noreen on a good day.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: That's good.\r\n\r\nTim: \u201cOn a good day, we do this; on a not so good day, we\u2026\u201d I think that's really good to say: \u201cThere are times I feel like I'm Spirit-filled; but there's other times, I'm just annoyed, angry, and I want to fight.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:Well, it's interesting: I didn't think of this until you both are just talking about this. Ann and I were speaking last summer in the Branson, Missouri, area; and we had Saturday afternoon off. We had to speak that night to football coaches from around the country about marriage; it was really a great conference. And they said, \u201cHey, there's this Sight &amp;amp; Sound Theater in Branson that has the show, Esther; it's phenomenal.\u201d We go do it\u2014we're sitting there\u2014it's phenomenal. Live camels coming out.\r\n\r\nAnn: We've never been to one; it's great!\r\n\r\nDave:Yeah, it was phenomenal; it's the story of Esther. \r\n\r\nAnyway, all that to say, intermission happens. There's nobody sitting like five seats beside me. All of a sudden, this guy sits down, right beside me during intermission, and leans\/like lays on me\u2014some stranger dude\u2014and I'm looking at Ann. I just turned; I go, \u201cDude, what's up?\u201d He goes, \u201cDave Wilson!\u201d I go, \u201cDo I know you?\u201d He goes, \u201cDude! You led me to Christ!\u201d\r\n\r\nSean:Oh, my goodness.\r\n\r\nDave:I go, \u201cWho are you?\u201d He goes, \u201cYou don't remember me? I was at your church in Michigan, 20 years ago. Man Up is what we called our men's weekend\u2014bad title, by the way; wouldn't use it anymore\u2014but that's what we called it then.\r\n\r\nSean:We\u2019ll edit that; don't worry.\r\n\r\nDave:And I remember this conversation; he goes, \u201cI'm the guy that came up to you in the lobby, and I was an atheist.\u201d I go, \u201cDude, I remember that!\u201d He goes, \u201cI'm sitting back there, and I saw your bald head; and I go, \u2018I think that's the guy that led me to Christ.\u2019\u201d \r\n\r\nAnyway, here's the story. I'm speaking at this thing; and I say from the stage, at one point, \u201cI've wrestled with skepticism my whole life. I need evidence,\u201d and talked about my journey. He walks up to me in the lobby, and there's nobody there. He goes, \u201cI'm an atheist; I don't believe any of this stuff. I'm here because a buddy brought me here, and sounds like you've had the same kind of journey. I don't think any of this is true. What do you have to say to that?\u201d He was pretty antagonistic at the moment. \r\n\r\nI'm thinking about that conversation, and I remember I looked at him\u2014and I didn't know I was doing what Tim just said\u2014and I said: \u201cYeah, who are you reading?\u201d \u201cWho are you studying?\u201d \u201cWhere do you get your thoughts from?\u201d And he started listening off. I go, \u201cYeah, I read all those guys.\u201d I go, man, \u201cThey're really good thinkers; they're amazing thinkers. I think they're wrong about some things. You want to talk about it?\u201d We had a conversation\u2014probably, a 20-minute conversation in a lobby, with people walking by him\u2014and he came to Christ. As I heard you say that, I was like, \u201cPart of the reason he wanted to talk is\u2014I said what you just said\u2014\u201cTell me about who you're listening to.\u201d I didn't demean these guys\u2014you know them all\u2014they\u2019re all the thinkers in the atheistic world; and he came to Christ about that. \r\n\r\nBut here's my question\u2014because when you were talking about all that\u2014I thought, when you mentioned Gottman, one of the things that I love, that he talks about, is contempt. He talks about the things that'll destroy a marriage and any relationship\u2014criticism\u2014but contempt he says is the biggest one\u2014because it isn't just, \u201cI'm critical\u201d; you're thinking, \u201cI think you're an idiot for thinking that.\u201d \u201cI think my wife is nuts; she's wrong, and she's a bad person because of it.\u201d Talk about that; that happens in these conversations. People feel our contempt toward them. They're not just a wrong opinion; we think they're nuts. \r\n\r\nAnn: I think that\u2019s what we\u2019re seeing on social media platforms, too: \u201cYou are the dumbest person.\u201d\r\n\r\nTim: Let me hand it off to Sean in a second. But we had on Arthur Brooks on our podcast\u2014we do the Winsome Conviction podcast, me and Dr. Rick Langer\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: You quote him in the book. \r\n\r\nTim: We do! He's a Harvard researcher; and he said this, \u201cAmerica does not have an anger problem; we have a contempt problem.\u201d And we said, \u201cOkay, what's contempt?\u201d He said, \u201cAnger is: \u2018I can be mad at you, but I'm staying in the marriage,\u201d \u201cI can be mad at you, and we're still neighbors,\u201d \u201c\u2026we're still friends.\u201d \u201c\u2026we still go to the same church.\u201d Contempt is: \u201cThis church would be better off without you,\u201d \u201cThis country would be better off without you\u201d; that is contempt. He said, \u201cContempt is killing this country.\u201d \r\n\r\nI think back to what Paul said, \u201cProtect unity,\u201d in the church at Ephesus. Churches are splitting over everything; I think that's what's killing us today. Let's hang into the conversation. Let's remember what unifies us as we go to the points of disagreement. But I think Paul\u2014remember, in Romans 14, he's talking to Jewish converts; he's talking to Gentile converts, who disagree about days and diets\u2014he says, \u201cListen, I'm not going to settle this one; but I do not want you to stop the work of God because of food. And second, I do not want you to have contempt towards each other.\u201d I think we're violating Romans 14 all over the place. \r\n\r\nSo I think it's great, when a family member that you really disagree with, I think it's really good\u2014before you get to that disagreement\u2014to affirm, \u201cHey, we're family.\u201d I remember my mom saying to me, \u201cBlood is thicker than water; they will always be your brothers.\u201d I think that's great to say, \u201cWe're family, but we do really disagree about this issue. We see it very differently\u2014you quote the Bible; I quote the Bible\u2014we're just going to have to live with this disagreement, because we're family.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:Yeah. I mean, Sean, you do this better than anybody I know. You don't have contempt. \r\n\r\nAnn: You navigate it so well.\r\n\r\nDave: You love them\u2014you're tender; you listen\u2014you're the model!\r\n\r\nSean:I don't know about that. I could tell plenty of stories, probably from this week alone, of falling short. \r\n\r\nHere's the principle I try to live with on contempt: \r\n\r\nThere are people in our culture who have contempt for the Christian faith and Christians because of what we believe\u2014whether that's about Jesus, whether that's about marriage\u2014I have no control if someone's going to have contempt for me. And some will\u2014in fact, some have called this an anti-Christian age\u2014because of the positions we hold are so intolerant and bigoted on issues of marriage and sexuality. If somebody has contempt for me, because I'm being faithful to message of Jesus, fine\u2014they called Paul delusional; they called him crazy\u2014they crucified Jesus. But if they have contempt, because I failed to love people; or I'm dying on a secondary issue, then that's on me; and I need to repent of that.\r\n\r\nIt's discouraging, and it's distressing; and it, literally, can be depressing if I look at the way we communicate in our culture today. I try to bring back, and say, \u201cWhat can I control?\u201d \u201cAm I being faithful?\u201d \u201cAm I actually loving people?\u201d One of my principles is: \u201cI want to be as gracious as I can be without compromising biblical truth.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: That's good.\r\n\r\nSean:And exactly where that biblical truth is\u2014that's where some of the debate comes in\u2014fine; but that's my conscience before the Lord. \r\n\r\nI found, when people have contempt for me, and I say, \u201cYou know what? I've shown nothing, as far as I can tell, searching my heart, but love for you. And I've stayed faithful to biblical commandments that I've been as gracious as I can be.\u201d It hurts, but I can live with that; that's what I would encourage Christians to do. \r\n\r\nWe also see that, within the Christian fold, contempt for other people, who have different positions. And I go: \u201cWhat can I control?\u201d \u201cAm I being faithful?\u201d \u201cAm I trying to act in love?\u201d People are going to second guess a whole bunch of things\u2014that's all I can control; that's all I'm in charge of\u2014and I think, if more people would just try to frame their conversations that way, I think we'd, at least, see some progress.\r\n\r\nAnn: Guys, why are we seeing the contempt today more than ever?\u2014it feels like.\r\n\r\nTim: I would say tribalism is a huge thing. We are siloed from each other; we don't have commonalities as Americans anymore. When we were in Capitol Hill, we suggested to some Christian leaders: \u201cReach across the aisle and go have coffee together.\u201d G.K. Chesterton, the great defender of the faith\u2014after he would debate H.G. Wells, Rudyard Kipling, they would literally go to the pub\u2014they would sit in the pub, and process the debate, and laugh. We actually used that illustration. I'll never forget, when high-ranking officials said, \u201cHave coffee? We don't even share the same elevators.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Wow!\r\n\r\nTim: Well, when you don't share the same elevators\u2014when there's no commonality anymore\u2014you demonize the other side; because you no longer know anybody from the other side, because your group watches all the same news programs. We go to a church that thinks exactly like we do; we only talk to people who think like we do, and we so demonize the other side. When you finally do meet somebody from the other side, you're like, \u201cOh, you people are crazy! You're seriously crazy, and I'm going to set you straight because of how crazy you are.\u201d\r\n\r\nWe really do encourage: \u201cYou need to get used to hearing the other side. It doesn't mean you agree with it.\u201d And that's why\u2014again, EndTheStalemate.com is this website; you're going to listen to two Christians\u2014you're going to disagree, maybe, with one of them; but get used to that. There's another great website called AllSides.com, where you go\u2014and it presents the left, the right, and the center\u2014the best representatives. We just need to get used to hearing perspectives that's outside of our tribe. \r\n\r\nI think, Ann, because of social media, it's so easy to be in that electronic tribe with algorithms and stuff like that. I think that's what's really kind of changed us a little bit is social media has kind of poured some rhetorical gasoline on the fire.\r\n\r\nAnn: So we really don't hear the other side.\r\n\r\nSean:So here's a simple test everybody could do. This is, maybe, dangerous; but scroll through your podcasts, and just look and ask yourself: \u201cHow many support what I already believe?\u201d \u201cHow many sides are against it?\u201d Now, it doesn't have to be 50\/50; but if you don't have, at least, some representative podcasts to people who see the world differently, then you're in a silo\u2014and everybody else is stupid\u2014because they don't see the world as you do. \r\n\r\nSo I think to answer your question: \u201cThere's a relational piece.\u201d If you don't know somebody who sees the world differently, then it's abstract. And so you speak about atheists, or Republicans, or Democrats, or whatever group you want to put people in as an abstract enemy; but when you know Joe, or Kim, or Barbara\u2014or fill in the blank\u2014it becomes personal; so there's a relational piece. \r\n\r\n\u201cThere's also an intellectual piece.\u201d If you only read books and listen to podcasts\u2014that agree with you, and follow people on Twitter that agree with you\u2014then, of course, you're going to think the other side is crazy and have contempt for them for not seeing, the right way, the world is.\r\n\r\nDave:My first week of seminary\u2014I don't remember if it was Scott Rae\u2014who you guys know\u2014 \r\n\r\nTim: Oh, yeah. \r\n\r\nDave: \u2014or J.P. Morgan. \r\n\r\nSean:He\u2019s my co-host, by the way\u2014Scott Rae.\r\n\r\nTim: \u2014the Think Biblically podcast. \r\n\r\nAnn: I didn\u2019t know Scott Rae was.\r\n\r\nSean: Yeah, I\u2019ve known Scott for years.\r\n\r\nDave:They were teaching, at the International School of Theology, where I went in 1982. And one of the classes\u2014I think it was Scott\u2014was on writing and speaking. First day of class\u2014I'll never forget\u2014he said, \u201cHey, don't just read the Bible; don't just read Christian thinkers. You want to read the best writers in the country?\u2014read Sports Illustrated.\u201d I  go, \u201cWhat?!\u201d And somebody in our class, actually, raised their hand, and said, \u201cNo, I don't want to read that stuff; it\u2019s non-Christian thinking. I want to keep my mind pure.\u201d And he goes, \u201cYeah, you need to know what non-Christians think; and they're really good writers.\u201d\r\n\r\nSean:Why don't we read other sides?\r\n\r\nDave:Why don't we?\r\n\r\nSean:I think a big reason is we're insecure in our own position, and we're threatened by people who see the world differently. I do this thing\u2014this atheist roleplay, where I put on glasses in our roleplaying atheists, and I take questions; respond as an atheist could\u2014and then, when I'm done, people get defensive; they get angry; they call me names. It's crazy! \r\n\r\nAnd the first question I typically ask is, \u201cHow did you treat your atheist guests?\u201d And their eyes are like, \u201cYou got me.\u201d I'll say, \u201cGive me individual words that describe the way you treated me.\u201d One of the most common words is \u201cHostile\u201d\u2014comes up all the time\u2014and \u201cDefensive.\u201d I say, \u201cWell, why do we get defensive?\u201d Well, if you don't know what you believe, and why you believe it, we're defensive at somebody else, who sees the world differently. So if you only listen to people who agree with your side, you probably have no depth; you probably don't really know what you believe and why you believe it. So you just want people to reinforce your shallow convictions. But if we're supposed to care about truth, we shouldn't be threatened by people who see the world differently.\r\n\r\nAnn:I think it's good. We've gotten into the practice\u2014I probably more than you, Dave, just because I'm a book reader and listener\u2014but asking our kids\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:\u2014and I'm not\u2014there you go.\r\n\r\nAnn: No, no! I mean, nonfiction\u2014I would read more\u2014that's bad. \r\n\r\nTim: First 30 seconds\u2026\r\n\r\nAnn: You read fiction. You don\u2019t read as much\u2014\r\n\r\nSean: So our book doesn\u2019t count; I\u2019m kidding.\r\n\r\nAnn: Dave\u2019s reading your book. \r\n\r\nSo I'll ask our kids, like: \u201cHey guys, what are you reading right now?\u201d \u201cWhat are you listening to right now?\u201d \u201cWhat are you watching?\u201d And then, \u201cTell me one of the things that I should listen to or watch that you have loved.\u201d That's always a little risky, because I may hate them. But I like that they're willing, like, \u201cOh, mom, you're going to listen to this,\u201d or \u201c\u2026watch this,\u201d or \u201cTell me what you think of this\u2026\u201d I love that. And you do that, too, Dave. \r\n\r\nDave:She\u2019s trying to\/she\u2019s trying to put me back. No, I think one of the\u2014and what you guys are saying\u2014I love hearing differing opinions. I love hearing contrary thoughts\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: You do.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014on really important issues. I want to understand and dialogue about that.\r\n\r\nAnn: And you've been amazing with our kids about that.\r\n\r\nDave:Oh, I want to do it. I remember, as a guitar player, when they were teenagers, listening to music, I'm like, \u201cHey, I want to learn this song and know why you like it.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: I'm like, \u201cThis is of Satan!\u201d And I'd throw it in the garbage. And so Dave was a really good balance for me\u2014of watching him\u2014say, \u201cTell me why you love this guy. Tell me what is it that draws you to him.\u201d You're really good at that.\r\n\r\nTim: So you're a rarity though. In cancel culture today, Dave, you both would be a rarity. \r\n\r\nWe had a pastor on our podcast, who drew a circle around his church\u2014a ten-mile radius\u2014and said, \u201cI'm going to engage every religious leader in this ten-mile radius. We're not going to be in a cocoon anymore; we're going to engage.\u201d So he did; there was a mosque.\r\n\r\nBy the way, Sean just did a great series, where you went to a mosque, and he went to a Hindu temple to do perspective taking. Oh, it's fascinating; he does a great job. \r\n\r\nAnn: Really: Interesting. \r\n\r\nTim: So he had these [different worldview thinking] people and would engage them. And got more pushback of people saying, \u201cWhy would we give the platform to this person?\u201d \u201cWhy would I fill my head with those unbiblical thoughts?\u201d\r\n\r\n And all I can say is, \u201cWhen Paul, in Acts 17, he's going to address the men of Athens. By the way, listen to his first 30 seconds; he chooses to say, \u2018Men of Athens, I observe you're very religious in many ways.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Isn't he a master of communication?\r\n\r\nTim: And then, he quotes a poet; he quotes one of their poets. So I do think we need\u2014 \r\n\r\nDave:\u2014which would be a secular person.\r\n\r\nTim: Yes, but we need to be careful; right? Again, our students, when we have them do these perspective-taking exercises, they are under our tutelage. We're not just throwing them to the wolves: we're teaching them skills; and then, we're having them do it. Again, go to EndTheStalemate.com\u2014we're giving you skills\u2014we're not just launching you into this perspective.\r\n\r\nDave:And then, you even say in the book, you don't do this with first-year students.\r\n\r\nTim: Yeah, I'm careful; I teach.\r\n\r\nDave:You want them\u2014\r\n\r\nTim: Yes; I teach a very semi-controversial class called \u201cEngaging in Diverse Perspectives.\u201d Now, again, these are seniors; this is a 400-level class. My goodness\u2014if the seniors are not ready for this\/if the seniors are not ready for this\u2014we\u2019ve got problems. \r\n\r\nSo yeah, you raise your kids, because you have the long view; we're slowly introducing them to topics. Then I think you really kick it in when high school comes\u2014we're talking about things; we're watching news programs we don't traditionally agree with\u2014we're doing it as a family, and the kids are used to listening to counter-perspective. So it's a slow way to bring them. But I think we need to just really start thinking about our kids: \u201cIs our family a cocoon? Are we really isolated from people that we disagree with?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:And I would say, tomorrow\u2014because we're going to have another day on this\u2014\"How do we have the dinner conversation?\u201d We've talked pre-; we need to talk in-the-moment; and also, post-. \u201cBut walk us through the actual conversation; because when we get in it, sometimes, things happen in real time; and you don't follow the plan. You preset up; and then, it gets ugly. So help us.\u201d\r\n\r\nTim: We\u2019d love to.\r\n\r\nShelby: I'm Shelby Abbott; and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson, with Sean McDowell and Tim Muehlhoff, on FamilyLife Today. Tim and Sean have written a book called End the Stalemate. This book is really for anyone who feels really just disheartened by the current state of the public conversation that's happening, and for someone who wants to learn how to foster meaningful and respectful conversations in a culture of division. If that sounds appealing to you, you can get your copy of Tim and Sean's book, End the Stalemate, right now, by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com. Or you could click on the link that's in the show notes, or feel free to give us a call at 800-358-6329 to request your copy. Again, that number is 800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word, TODAY. \r\n\r\nWe've been talking about this all day today; we were talking about it yesterday, as well. Many of us are just tired of the tension and division that exists with our family members, with our friends, with social media that we're on; even during family gatherings around the kitchen table. Yet Psalm 1:33 tells us that it's good for believers to live in unity with one another. So the question is: \u201cHow do we do that when everybody seems to be angry all the time?\u201d \r\n\r\nWell, I'm excited to invite you to join us, here, at FamilyLife for a five-week video series that's hosted by our friend\u2014author and comedian\u2014Amberly Neese. It's called \u201cMoving Toward Each Other in the Middle of a Divisive World.\u201d In it, Amberly really guides us on how to build peace with people in our lives when our differing thoughts, and opinions, and beliefs threaten to create division. You could sign up for this free five-week video series by going online to FamilyLife.com\/FindingCommonGround. You could click on a link for it in the show notes. Or again, you could head over to FamilyLife.com\/FindingCommonGround.\r\n\r\nNow, coming up tomorrow: \u201cHow do we have meaningful conversations with others who have a different opinion than us?\u201d\u2014especially, in family settings during things like the holidays and political times, like the time that we're in, exactly right now. Well, we'll talk about that with Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell tomorrow on FamilyLife Today. We hope you'll join us. On behalf of Dave Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife.com                                 \r\n\r\n\n","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/309773","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=309773"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/309774"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=309773"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=309773"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=309773"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=309773"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=309773"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=309773"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}