{"id":309734,"date":"2024-11-04T08:00:00","date_gmt":"2024-11-04T08:29:14","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/end-the-stalemate-tim-muehlhoff-sean-mcdowell\/"},"modified":"2024-11-19T04:14:34","modified_gmt":"2024-11-19T09:14:34","slug":"end-the-stalemate-tim-muehlhoff-sean-mcdowell","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/end-the-stalemate-tim-muehlhoff-sean-mcdowell\/","title":{"rendered":"End the Stalemate: Tim Muehlhoff &#038; Sean McDowell"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Civil conversations feel harder and harder to come by these days. Hosts Dave and Ann Wilson are joined by scholars, authors, and Christian apologists\u2014Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell\u2014to discuss their new book, &#8220;End the Stalemate: Move Past Cancel Culture to Meaningful Conversations.&#8221; Listen in as they shed light on our current polarized culture, as well as offer practical help for having better conversations.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Civil conversations feel harder to come by these days. Listen as Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell address cancel culture and offer strategies to help.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":309735,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/1caa7e00-987c-4270-9819-b21201129f7d\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:28:38","filesize":"26.26M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2024-11-04 03:29:14","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[10882],"cwp_profile":[9849,3245],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-309734","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","podcast_series-end-the-stalemate-tim-muehlhoff-sean-mcdowell","cwp_profile-dr-sean-mcdowell","cwp_profile-tim-muehlhoff","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/11\/image_49e448.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/309734\/end-the-stalemate-tim-muehlhoff-sean-mcdowell","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/309734\/end-the-stalemate-tim-muehlhoff-sean-mcdowell","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"5CIAlfqZ55\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/end-the-stalemate-tim-muehlhoff-sean-mcdowell\/\">End the Stalemate: Tim Muehlhoff &#038; Sean McDowell<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/end-the-stalemate-tim-muehlhoff-sean-mcdowell\/embed\/#?secret=5CIAlfqZ55\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;End the Stalemate: Tim Muehlhoff &#038; Sean McDowell&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"5CIAlfqZ55\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["1caa7e00-987c-4270-9819-b21201129f7d"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/1caa7e00-987c-4270-9819-b21201129f7d\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:28:38"],"filesize":["26.26M"],"_thumbnail_id":["309735"],"show_notes":["\n<ul>\n<li>Connect with Tim Muehlhoff and catch more of their thoughts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.biola.edu\/blogs\/winsome-conviction\">Winsome Conviction Project<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Find previous podcast episodes and articles with Tim <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/profiles\/tim-muehlhoff\/\">here<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Connect with Sean McDowell and catch more of their thoughts at <a href=\"https:\/\/seanmcdowell.org\/\">seanmcdowell.org<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Find more podcast episodes with Sean <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/profiles\/dr-sean-mcdowell\/\">here<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>You find find their book, \"<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/end-the-stalemate-move-past-cancel-culture-to-meaningful-conversations\/\">End the Stalemate: Moving Past Cancel Culture to Meaningful Conversations<\/a>,\" in our shop!<\/li>\n<li>FamilyLife has a free devotional for you from Amberly Neese: \"Finding Common Ground.\" Sign up at <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/content-offers\/finding-common-ground\/\">familylife.com\/findingcommonground<\/a><br \/>\n<hr>\n<\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-11-04.pdf"],"transcript_content":["\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nEnd the Stalemate\r\n\r\nGuests:Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell\r\n\r\nFrom the series:End the Stalemate (Day 1 of 3)\r\n\r\nAir date:November 4, 2024\r\n\r\nSean:What's the goal in engaging in a conversation? I think, when it's all said and done, there only should be one goal of what we communicate and how we communicate it; that is, \u201cTo speak the truth in love.\u201d If that's not our goal\u2014to love people\u2014then what's the point?\r\n\r\nShelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. \r\n\r\nDave: This is FamilyLife Today.\r\n\r\nDave:We've got two of my favorite thinkers in the studio.\r\n\r\nAnn: Right! I know. Are you excited today?\r\n\r\nDave:Oh, I really am. \r\n\r\nAnn: Me, too. \r\n\r\nDave: And I'm not kidding\u2014I said this in the endorsement for their book\u2014do you remember?\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave:We wrote this: \u201cThese are two of the best thinkers, in my opinion, in the world\u2014not the country, not the state of Michigan, not Florida\u2014the world on apologetics, and Christian thinking, and theology.\u201d We've got Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell. Welcome guys.\r\n\r\nTim: Thank you. \r\n\r\nSean: Thanks. This is a treat. \r\n\r\nTim: Wow! We need to be here more often. \r\n\r\nSean: Man, alive;\u2014\r\n\r\nTim: That sounded great. \r\n\r\nSean: \u2014quite the intro; appreciate that.\r\n\r\nDave:I didn't even think what I was going to say; I just feel that way about you guys. You guys think so well-rounded about important, divisive topics of anybody I know in the country.\r\n\r\nAnn: But it's the way you communicate them; you don't push people away. It reminds me of the winsomeness of Jesus, how He\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:Oh, wait, wait, wait; you can't be comparative to Jesus!\r\n\r\nAnn: No, no; I\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: You just raised the bar. \r\n\r\nTim: Dave, do not interrupt Ann! \r\n\r\nDave: Okay, sorry; sorry. \r\n\r\nTim: Go with it, Ann; go with the Spirit. \r\n\r\nAnn: This is totally of God. It's that He was winsome; everyone was drawn to Him. No matter where they stood politically, theologically, they were all drawn to Him.\r\n\r\nDave:They're going to go home, and tell their wives, \u201cHey, we were compared to Jesus.\u201d\r\n\r\nTim: I'm going to play this, opening every class, the start of every semester at Biola University.\r\n\r\nDave:Well, tell our listeners what you do. You both are profs at Biola in different areas, so tell us what you do.\r\n\r\nTim: I'm a professor of communication.\r\n\r\nDave:Did you have hair when you started, like me? \r\n\r\nTim: I did; yeah, I did.\r\n\r\nDave:You have a little.\r\n\r\nTim: One time, I was lecturing; and students started laughing in my class. They Googled me with hair, and I docked them all five points; because they shouldn't be on social media. But five years\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: Maybe, you're not so winsome; I don\u2019t know.\r\n\r\nTim: That\u2019s right. \r\n\r\nFive years ago, Biola started the Winsome Conviction Project; because all of us were concerned that we're just losing the ability to talk to each other about really important topics. So we just got back from Capitol Hill, talking to self-professed Christian leaders in the Pentagon, Capitol Hill. We need it; I think the country feels it. I think families deeply feel: \u201cWe're losing the ability to talk to each other.\u201d And so that's what we try to do with the Winsome Conviction Project. \r\n\r\nI've been a long-admirer of Sean. We've literally known each other\u2014I think we figured this out one time\u2014how many years, Sean?\r\n\r\nSean:About 25 years. \r\n\r\nDave: Really?\r\n\r\nTim: About 25 years.\r\n\r\nSean:Yes, that's right.\r\n\r\nTim: And of course, we all know his dad, Josh McDowell; we all grew up with Josh.\r\n\r\nDave:I picked Josh up at the airport, in 1978, at Ball State University.\r\n\r\nTim: Wow!\r\n\r\nSean: Wow; you remember the year and the place. That\u2019s impressive.\r\n\r\nDave:Well, I was a college student; so obviously, I remember the year\u2014and I had a really good football year that year, so I remember that year\u2014it's in the books. But anyway, he was fantastic.\r\n\r\nTim: I'm a huge fan of Sean.\r\n\r\nDave:I might've played him in racquetball.\r\n\r\nTim: I\u2019ve played him in racquetball.\r\n\r\nSean:You did?\r\n\r\nAnn: Is he a racquetball player?\r\n\r\nTim: I played your dad in racquetball when he came to Miami of Ohio University in Oxford, Ohio.\r\n\r\nAnn: What year was that?\r\n\r\nTim: I can't remember\u2014I'm bad at years\u2014you're great Dave. \r\n\r\nBut Sean's a professor; he has a YouTube channel that I love. It\u2019s absolutely amazing.\r\n\r\nDave: I love it! He\u2019s going to introduce you, Sean.\r\n\r\nTim: No, I'm just giving him the handoff. Sean's amazing; the faculty at Biola are great. So Sean, what do you do?\r\n\r\nSean:When I was eight, somebody asked me, \u201cHow does your dad react to losing at handball?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:We played racquetball.\r\n\r\nSean:Oh, oh, it was racquetball\u2014\r\n\r\nTim: We did; it was racquetball.\r\n\r\nSean: I'll take that back; it was racquetball.\r\n\r\nDave:He would have in his [bag] when he traveled.\r\n\r\nTim: It was; it was.\r\n\r\nDave:I remember racquetball, and so I played him.\r\n\r\nSean:My response was, \u201cI've never seen him lose.\u201d Now, if you beat him, just don't say anything; so I can keep that narrative going. That's how I remember it.\r\n\r\nDave:I did not beat him.\r\n\r\nSean:I grew up\u2014my dad\/my parents were, and are, on Cru, so just a heart for evangelism\u2014but my interest, which will make sense, is in apologetics. I also teach at Biola, Talbot School of Theology, an apologetics class on the problem of evil, defense of the resurrection; write books; speak, run a YouTube channel. And [I] try to model a lot of things we're going to get into in the book\u2014just having conversations with progressive Christians, agnostics, atheists, Muslims\u2014and I enjoy sitting down, just trying to find common ground with people, getting clarity on what they believe, clarifying differences, and just hearing people out\u2014showing, in our crazy culture today, you can actually have meaningful conversations, which I think is one way of loving people today; and so that's why I try to do so. \r\n\r\nTim asked me about this book; and I was like, \u201cLet's go.\u201d It was one of the easiest books I've written\u2014it took a ton of time\u2014it was just trying to express the things that you and I are trying to do in our life and ministry.\r\n\r\nDave:When we picked up your book, End the Stalemate, a thought came to my head; and it was a song.\r\n\r\nSean:Here we go!\r\n\r\nDave:Okay, I thought, \u201cTim\u2019s old enough\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: Did he do a song for either of you yet? \r\n\r\nSean: He did, last time I was here. \r\n\r\nDave: Oh, I did a song when you were here last time?\r\n\r\nSean: We talked about chasing love, and you did some love song. \r\n\r\nDave:Oh, yeah! It was\/you had it in your book. \r\n\r\nBut Tim's old enough to remember this song\u2014he was a kid when this came out, like me\u2014but Sean might be a little younger. The lyrics are sort of about that\u2014[We Can Work It Out\u00a9; Artists and Writers: Paul McCarney and John Lennon; Produced by George Martin, December 3, 1965] \u2014\u201cTry to see it my way. Do I have to keep on talking 'til I can't go on?\u201d You know the song?\r\n\r\nTim: Yes! Yeah, yeah. \r\n\r\nDave: \u201cWhile you see it your way, run the risk of knowing that our love may soon be gone. We can work it out. We can work it out.\u201d Come on, Ann!\r\n\r\nDave and Ann: \u201cLife is very short, and there's no time for fussing and fighting, my friend. \r\n\r\nI have always thought that it's a cry; so I will ask you.\u201d You remember that song?\u2014We Can Work It Out. \r\n\r\nWhat year? What year was it? \r\n\r\nDave: 1967 or \u201868. \r\n\r\nTim: Wow. \r\n\r\nDave: I was probably ten years old. I'm a Beatles nut with A Hard Day's Night\u00a9, when I was eight years old, and fell in love. \r\n\r\nBut anyway, it's a song that McCartney and Lennon wrote about ending the stalemate. And again, I'm just having fun\u2014it's a ridiculous song\u2014but when I saw End the Stalemate, I thought, \u201cThey were trying to say\u201d\u2014and a lot of people aren't like me, Beatle nuts; when you go to the backstories of their song, they're like\u2014\u201cThere's all kinds of fighting and fussing; nobody can get along. I can only see my side; you can only see your side.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cTry to see it my way.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:And they just wrote this simple little fun song, with an accordion, that became a number-one hit about that. When I read End the Stalemate, I thought, \u201cThat's what you're trying to do.\u201d \r\n\r\nBut here's what I want to start with\u2014here's the subtitle\u2014Move Past Cancel Culture to Meaningful Conversations. Explain and talk about cancel culture.\r\n\r\nAnn: And how appropriate for the timing, for you guys to be on; because we are in the week of election\u2014the election\u2014the Presidential election. And so there's a lot of conversations that are going on that are really difficult.\r\n\r\nTim: Well, let me give you some bad news; and then, let me give you some good news. The bad news is there was a survey done by Pew Research, where 33 percent of respondents said, \u201cI no longer talk to a family member, because of the 2016 Presidential election.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014a family member!\r\n\r\nTim: \u2014family member. They have stopped talking completely to this family member, based on that election; that's the bad news. \r\n\r\nHere's the good news\u2014and this is almost why we wrote the book\u2014is 98 percent of Americans\u2014think about that; and people say, \u201cAmericans don't agree on anything.\u201d Ninety-eight percent of us would say incivility is a threat to this country. So the majority of us really do believe we got to work it out\u2014we have to find a way of pushing past our differences and talking to each other\u2014and we feel that. So that's why we sat down and wrote the book\u2014is we're speaking to the majority of Americans, who are like\u2014\"We can't continue on this trajectory, because it is not good for our country. It's not good for our families. So let's find a way to end the stalemate and be productive.\u201d\r\n\r\nSean:Cancel culture is a term that's not only in the US. I was asked to speak on cancel culture, last year, in the Philippines.\r\n\r\nDave:Really.\r\n\r\nAnn: Really?\r\n\r\nSean:It's become a global phenomena. It was tied to political issues there: tied to issues of sexuality there; tied to other ethical issues. It's basically: \u201cIf somebody holds a position that you deem\u2014improper, or wrong, or mistaken; or says something you find offensive\u2014then, use social media, primarily, to target and try to cancel that person's livelihood or platform.\u201d Other people just start piling on to cancel somebody. \r\n\r\nThe reality is it's a phenomena that cuts across politics; it cuts across religion. And what happens is\u2014as Christians, I think we make one of two mistakes\u2014either we go: \r\n\r\n\u201cWell, you're going to cancel us, I'm going to cancel you; because there still are a lot of people with power and influence, who are Christians.\u201d\r\n\r\nOr we act in fear; and we become afraid to say anything, because we will get canceled. \r\n\r\nAnd that's an understandable fear. There's a lot of times, where I'm about to say something; I think, \u201cOkay, how do I word this in a way to make sure I don't lose my job?\u201d\u2014\"somebody doesn't come after me?\u201d I try to be as gracious as possible. I think it's impossible to avoid those voices, and we should have them to a degree, and be thoughtful about what we say. We're at the point where censorship is coming in; name calling is coming in; and we've just lost the ability to communicate with each other.\r\n\r\nDave:So where do we go? Because Sean, I've literally done that. I've gone quiet\/silent in some ways, especially socially social media. Last night, I saw a post of somebody I know. All the comments started going, and I had all kinds of thoughts; and I'm like, \u201cNope; I want to have a meaningful conversation, even online, with people I don't even know.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Well, \u201cIs it productive?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:The fear was like, \u201cIs it worth it? I'm going to be misunderstood; then, it's going to go to another. I'm just going to stay out.\u201d I find myself doing that more than engaging; because I don't think it's worth it, because I know we're going to be divided.\r\n\r\nAnn: And that's my question, too: \u201cIs it productive?\u201d I mean, are we getting on there to change somebody's mind? Because it seems like we're using platforms to change somebody. \u201cDoes that change somebody?\u201d\r\n\r\nSean:Part of the question is: \u201cWhat's the goal in engaging in a conversation?\u201d Is it to get retweets?\u2014then, you try to be provocative; you rile up your group; you defend yourself. That's how you sell books; that's how you get followers; that's how you get subscribers. \u201cIs the goal to win an argument?\u201d I think, when it's all said and done, there only should be one goal of what we communicate and how we communicate it; that is, \u201cTo speak the truth in love.\u201d If that's not our goal\u2014to love people\u2014then, what's the point? I think we forget that. \r\n\r\nNow, love doesn't mean you don't speak truth; you need to speak truth. It's truth that sets people free. But do we communicate it in a way that's effective and helpful? I think there's wisdom, like you said, in holding back. I see stuff\u2014and I want to weigh in\u2014I want to comment. Can't tell you how many times I go, \u201cOh, I didn't know that; I didn't have that angle. I'm sure glad I waited and was patient before I commented or I would've gotten piled on\u201d; and maybe, rightly so, in a few circumstances. So there's wisdom in holding back; but there's also a sense of: \u201cAm I holding back so much that I'm not speaking?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: Right\r\n\r\nSean: Yeah, it should be motivated by love. If that's not our goal, what's the point?\r\n\r\nTim: And I would just add to that: the book, I think, will work for politics; I think it really will. \u201cWill it work on Capitol Hill?\u201d\u2014t wasn't necessarily written for that; it really is written for the dinner table. \r\n\r\nAnn, what you just said, I think there's wisdom in keeping silent\u2014maybe, on social media about different issues\u2014but when it's your family, there's only so many times you can just stay silent. We know latent conflict is the conflict that's underneath the surface. So every time you bring something up in the marriage\u2014and I just go, \u201cNope, I'm not going to say anything, because we're just going to get into an argument,\u201d\u2014you can only play that card so many times within a marriage or a family, where now, there's so much under the carpet, it's affecting every conversation. \r\n\r\nThe book isn't trying to fix America, at large; it really is meant to be taken with family members, roommates, coworkers, the places we live. We do need to, eventually, talk about these topics. And this is helping people:\r\n\r\n\u201cPrepare to have the conversation,\u201d\u2014which is a big part of the book\u2014\u201cDon't just launch into conversations.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnd then, \u201cWhat do you do during it?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnd \u201cWhat do you do after the conversation?\u201d\r\n\r\n[This] is kind of how we package the book.\r\n\r\nAnn: Well, you guys have teens and young adults; and you're teaching young adults, all the time. So guide us\u2014teach us, as moms and dads\u2014\u201cHow do we have those conversations if we're on totally different playing fields at the dinner table?\u201d or \u201cOn Sunday, if your kids happen to come over, should we not go there?\u201d It's sounding like you're saying, \u201cSometimes, you should.\u201d\r\n\r\nSean:I think step number one is \u201cHaving a relationship.\u201d A lot of the conversations; for example, that I'll have at churches, or on YouTube\u2014work well, in part, because there's a relationship with a person and there's trust. If that's not there, it doesn't matter when or how you have the conversation. That's true with an atheist; that's true with your kids; that's true with a coworker. I mean, the Bible talks about love covers a multitude of sins, right? If there's love there, then, \u201cI'm going to let that comment go,\u201d\u2014not to bury it; like you say, \u201cWe don't want to bury stuff,\u201d\u2014but \u201cbecause I love you, and I know what you meant.\u201d \r\n\r\nSo step number one is just: \u201cBuild that relationship.\u201d If you want to talk to the kids about anything that matters\u2014spend time, going to their baseball games; spend time, talking with them; spend time, swimming with them; spend time, playing video games with them\u2014relationship, relationship, relationship. \r\n\r\nSecond is: \u201cIt's got to be the right time, and it's got to be in the right way.\u201d Sometimes, kids come home from school; and parents are like, \u201cHey, how was your day?\u201d\u2014and it's just not the right time for a kid to talk. I think, if we would think through\u2014\u201cBuild a relationship and the right time,\u201d\u2014the vast majority of people, hence, your statistic earlier, Tim\u2014want to have a meaningful conversation about issues that matter if we'll, at least, get those two things right for starters.\r\n\r\nTim: And Sean's, literally, working through the book of Proverbs, right? I mean, a wise man overlooks an insult\u2014\u201cI'm not going to bury it forever; but okay, you just said that;\u201d\u2014[sound of pushing a button]\u2014\u201cthat just pushed the button\/that really pushed the button; but now is not the time; now is not the place.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnd then, there's another Proverb that says: \u201cA word spoken in the right circumstance is compared to fine jewelry.\u201d I would add just one thing to what Sean's saying. I love the thing about building relationships\u2014that's so huge\u2014but when we're going to talk about the hot-button issues; and every marriage and family, you create this list pretty quick: \u201cWe got to be careful going there.\u201d \r\n\r\nOne of my kids, we disagree about politics\u2014we just do\u2014he's brilliant. So here's the funny thing about writing a book like this, okay? We're, literally, writing End the Stalemate; we're in the process of writing it. My child, on the phone, mentions a study\/a political study he loves it; I do not agree. So I had that moment\u2014I, literally, had that moment\u2014that probably every listener has; which is, \u201cI don't think this is\u2026I'm doing it.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Wait; take us back to the conversation. How did it start?\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nTim: Okay, he brought it up.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yeah,\r\n\r\nTim: It was a little bit: poking the bear; he knew it. I love him to death; deeply respect him\u2014very smart child\u2014and he poked the bear. I just sat there, writing this book, going, \u201cI'm not ready for this. My heart is not ready to have this conversation.\u201d Then, me being me, I launched right into it. You know it's going bad\u2014when your wife walks outside, looks at you, and goes, \u201cShh!\u201d\u2014because my heart wasn't in the right place. \r\n\r\nIn the book, we take a ton of time to say, \u201cBefore you have this conversation, you got to deal with your heart.\u201d The heart is mentioned 500 times in the Bible. Jesus says it is from your heart that you speak. So we really are big advocates of: you need to sit with these topics, and say, \u201cLord, what is happening in my heart when this topic comes up? There's no sense of humor anymore on my part; my humor has evaporated. I get really defensive when this topic comes up.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Why does this make me so happy? It makes me\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: I don\u2019t know, and why are you looking at me?\r\n\r\nAnn: No, because I can relate to this. \r\n\r\nTim: Right!\r\n\r\nAnn: Okay; well, finish off: \u201cWhat happened?\u201d\r\n\r\nTim: Okay. Oh, well, it did not go well.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014because\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:Surprise; surprise.\r\n\r\nTim: Surprise; surprise. I raised my voice. We were cutting each other off\u2014he's a lawyer; I was on the debate team\u2014there's a recipe for disaster. So we hung up: \u201cLove you,\u201d \u201cLove you; bye\u201d; boom! \r\n\r\nAnd then, when the Holy Spirit shows up, it's just such a bummer; it's like, \u201cRemind Me what you do for a living,\u201d \u201cI'm a Christian professor,\u201d \u201cRight! And what book are you writing right now?\u201d \u201cEnd the Stalemate,\u201d \u201cWas that good? Did you do anything you\u2026\u201d \r\n\r\nI had to wait\u2014I had to cool down\u2014and then, I called him back, and said, \u201cHey, my bad; that was not good.\u201d And he said, \u201cYeah, I agree.\u201d We set up a time; and then, we tried to have the conversation. It was like a week later or something like that. I needed to prepare emotionally, spiritually; I needed to ask a fundamental question: \u201cAm I open to his perspective?\u201d I wasn't\u2014when that thing happened, I wasn't open\u2014I wanted to set him straight. So now, I need to go back to the Lord, and say, \u201cOkay, make me open to his perspective.\u201d That's a process; it took me a while to get there.\r\n\r\nAnn: Do we need to be open to their perspective?\r\n\r\nTim: I think if this is your child\u2014again, this is situation-specific\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: Right; okay.\r\n\r\nTim: \u2014I'm saying Marital Communication 101; Parenting 101\u2014I think it's going to go along: \u201cThis is the Rule of Reciprocation,\u201d\u2014you generally treat me the way I treat you. If I'm not open to [his] perspective, then how can I ask my child to be open to my perspective? That\u2019s spiritual preparation to do that: I need to be ready to listen and not get defensive. We talk about \u201cbreath prayer\u201d as the conversation is happening; I'm, literally, praying as conversation [takes place], \u201cLord, okay; that was hard to hear. I really don't agree with that, but make me open. Let me listen, knowing I'm going to get to the point where I can share my perspective.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:Yeah; you're talking about, now, the pre-conversation preparation; because part of me thinks pre-conversation is: \u201cI'm getting all my points ready. I'm going to nail you, and here's my five points,\u201d and \u201cI know what you're thinking.\u201d That's part of it\u2014you got to know what you believe in, what they believe in, how you have a conversation\u2014but you're talking much deeper. You're talking heart\u2014right?\u2014when you talk pre-conversation.\r\n\r\nSean:Well, spontaneous conversation is the one you [Tim] described. They come out of, seemingly, out of nowhere; and there's no preparation. You're not expecting it; and that's, often, when we say things we want to take back, in the moment, which is a reminder for us\u2014on the flip side\u2014if you were triggered by this, understandably so: \u201cAre we dropping little rhetorical bombs for other people to trigger them at certain times? What are we expecting?\u201d Well, then, that's on us for doing that, even if the person responds in a way that they shouldn't.\r\n\r\nAnn: Give us an example of a rhetorical bomb.\r\n\r\nSean:A rhetorical bomb that could just be over the dinner table\u2014dropping something about an election, right?\u2014\"This person won,\u201d or \u201cAre you sad this person lost?\u201d\u2014and it's like: \u201cWell, what do you think I'm feeling right now?!\u201d\u2014that kind of reaction. It could be on any issue; it could be on a sports team, whatever. So those are just little statements, where if we're really analyzing our hearts, we know\u2014to use Tim's term\u2014we're kind of \u201cpoking the bear.\u201d\r\n\r\nI can think back of times that I've done that to other people, and I don't love that I've treated them that way. I remember a comment, probably 15 years ago, my neighbor had a big bumper sticker of a politician that I was not in favor of. I just made a comment like, \u201cHey, what do you think about that election?\u201d\u2014because his politician lost. And later, I'm like, \u201cWhat a low lame thing to say,\u201d especially because he wasn't a Christian. I partly\/probably 80 percent of it was in fun, but that 20 percent was not! So those are the kind of things we need to not say. \r\n\r\nIt's hard to prep for a conversation like that when it comes up; and in the moment, there's everything within you. So before we come back to the pre-conversation, I just want to say that\u2014and I've told you this, Tim\u2014that I don't think anyone has shaped the way I communicate more, or try to communicate more than Tim. He's a communication professor. \r\n\r\nBut [his] story illustrates: \u201cYou do this for a living; you research this; you practice this, and still have moments that you regret. If that's going to happen to you, it's going to happen to all of us.\u201d If you want to get better at communicating, it's going to be one step forward; maybe, two or three steps back, especially in our divided culture. I think the vast majority of people\u2014if there's a relationship there, and we just own it\u2014we\u2019ll be quick to forgive, and you just grow out of it.\r\n\r\nTim: So pass! Pass; right? Every holiday that comes, all of us, in all of our platforms, we do the holiday conversation episode: \u201cWhat's going to happen at Thanksgiving?\u201d \u201cWhat's going to happen at Christmas?\u201d My point would be learn how to pass when something comes up: \u201cI'm not going to bite.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: So your son calls; he brings up\u2014\r\n\r\nTim: Okay; I would say, if I'm in a good place spiritually, I would say, \u201cOkay, what did the study say?\u201d And then, as I'm listening to the study\u2014that honestly, I'm going, \u201cNo, no, no\u2019 nope,\u201d\u2014but I'm not going to vocalize that; because the first step, in any conversation, is I want to do what is called \u201cperspective taking\u201d: \u201cI want to see the world through your perspective.\u201d \r\n\r\nSo here's a study that my child thinks is a really good study: \u201cOkay, why do you think it's a really good study?\u201d \u201cWhat in that study really speaks to you?\u201d \u201cWhy do you trust this study?\u201d Now again, tone is everything; we all know this. Because if I go [demanding], \u201cWell, why do you trust this study?\u201d \u201cWhat is it about this study?\u201d\u2014that tone just sabotaged the whole conversation.\r\n\r\nAnn: So you wouldn't necessarily pass on that conversation with your son.\r\n\r\nTim: I might say, \u201cYeah, tell me about the study. Hey, you know what?\u2014shoot me the link. I'd love to read that study; and then, let's talk about it.\u201d Now, when we're going to talk about it, I need to have prepared. So we need to practice doing something called \u201cperspective taking.\u201d \r\n\r\nThe cool thing we did with the book is we hired a really talented web designer to create a website; it's called EndTheStalemate.com\u2014totally free\u2014you don't need to have read the book. We're going to present to you perspectives, that we know one of them you're not going to agree with; you're just going to listen to it. And you're going to go, \u201cI do not agree with this person.\u201d But we're going to ask you to not have a knee-jerk reaction; but to stop, and say: \u201cOkay, Lord, let me, at least, be open to the perspective. Let me flow what they're saying so, at least, I understand it. Then, let me try to find common ground; and then, I can disagree.\u201d\r\n\r\nLet's work through that progression and get used to doing that. Because of the political season, if you go to it right now, there\u2019s going to be two really articulate Christians. One's going to argue a particular way; the other's going to argue in a different way. We just want you to sit with it and prepare your heart to hear from both of them. Now, if you're like\u2014\u201cI don't want to hear that person; I'm not going to listen to that person,\u201d\u2014\u201cWell, okay, I need to sit before the Lord, and to say, \u2018Am I, at least, open to hearing what they have to say, with a charitable spirit?\u2019\u201d The great thing about this website is it's in the privacy of your own home. You can scream at the screen, \u201cThis is stupid!\u201d and you didn't hurt a relationship. I, literally, think we need to practice; so just go to EndTheStalemate.com. Let's start practicing listening to perspectives we don't agree with, but not having knee-jerk bad reactions.\r\n\r\nDave:Well, here's an amazing thing: we barely started, and we're done. We're out of time; I mean, it's crazy to think. I mean, there's so much more I want to talk about, which we're going to talk about tomorrow. But here's where I want to go tomorrow. One of the thoughts is, okay, I'm listening. I've prepared my heart. I'm literally breath praying as I'm listening to your point. And I believe your point is lies; it's not true\u2014it's not just, \u201cOkay, a different perspective,\u201d\u2014it is wrong. I believe that and know\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014\u201cBiblically, it\u2019s totally against the Bible.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:\u201cHow do I respond?\u201d I'm not just going to go, \u201cOkay, great; you're wrong!\u201d \r\n\r\nTim: I\u2019m so glad we\u2019re out of time! We can't come back tomorrow; we're sorry. \r\n\r\nDave: Okay, you're coming back tomorrow. \r\n\r\nTim: Great question, Dave.\r\n\r\nShelby: I\u2019m Shelby Abbott; and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson, with Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell, on FamilyLife Today. Tim and Sean have written a book called End the Stalemate: Move Past Cancel Culture to Meaningful Conversations. This book is really for anyone who feels kind of just disheartened by the current state of the conversation that's happening in culture right now and wants to learn how to foster just more meaningful, respectful conversations in a culture of division. If that's interesting to you, or you feel like you could really benefit from that, you can get your copy of Tim and Sean's book, End the Stalemate, right now, by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com. Or you could click on the link in the show notes, or feel free to give us a call at 800-358-6329 to request your copy. Again, that number is 800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word, TODAY.\r\n\r\nSo we've talked about this a lot, obviously, today. We're living in a time right now of just great tension and division. We're experiencing that, not only amongst people who are surrounding us in our neighborhoods, but also in our families, and even on social media. But Psalm 1:33 tells us it's good for believers to live in unity with one another. \u201cHow do we do that when everybody feels like they're angry all the time?\u201d Well, I'm excited to invite you to join us, here, at FamilyLife for a five-week video series from our friend\u2014author and comedian\u2014Amberly Neese. It's called \u201cMoving Toward Each Other in the Middle of a Divisive World.\u201d It's really about building peace amongst the people who are around us instead of creating division. You can sign up for this five-week video series by going online to FamilyLife.com\/FindingCommonGround, or just finding it in the show notes today. Again, that's FamilyLife.com\/FindingCommonGround. \r\n\r\nNow, coming up tomorrow, Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell are going to be here to help us transform kind of our heated debates into more meaningful dialogues with people. That's tomorrow; we hope you'll join us. On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. 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conversations feel harder to come by these days. Listen as Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell address cancel culture and offer strategies to help.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"\n<ul>\n<li>Connect with Tim Muehlhoff and catch more of their thoughts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.biola.edu\/blogs\/winsome-conviction\">Winsome Conviction Project<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Find previous podcast episodes and articles with Tim <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/profiles\/tim-muehlhoff\/\">here<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Connect with Sean McDowell and catch more of their thoughts at <a href=\"https:\/\/seanmcdowell.org\/\">seanmcdowell.org<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Find more podcast episodes with Sean <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/profiles\/dr-sean-mcdowell\/\">here<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>You find find their book, \"<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/end-the-stalemate-move-past-cancel-culture-to-meaningful-conversations\/\">End the Stalemate: Moving Past Cancel Culture to Meaningful Conversations<\/a>,\" in our shop!<\/li>\n<li>FamilyLife has a free devotional for you from Amberly Neese: \"Finding Common Ground.\" Sign up at <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/content-offers\/finding-common-ground\/\">familylife.com\/findingcommonground<\/a><br \/>\n<hr>\n<\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-11-04.pdf","transcript_content":"\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript\r\n\r\nThis content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.\r\n\r\nEnd the Stalemate\r\n\r\nGuests:Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell\r\n\r\nFrom the series:End the Stalemate (Day 1 of 3)\r\n\r\nAir date:November 4, 2024\r\n\r\nSean:What's the goal in engaging in a conversation? I think, when it's all said and done, there only should be one goal of what we communicate and how we communicate it; that is, \u201cTo speak the truth in love.\u201d If that's not our goal\u2014to love people\u2014then what's the point?\r\n\r\nShelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. \r\n\r\nDave: This is FamilyLife Today.\r\n\r\nDave:We've got two of my favorite thinkers in the studio.\r\n\r\nAnn: Right! I know. Are you excited today?\r\n\r\nDave:Oh, I really am. \r\n\r\nAnn: Me, too. \r\n\r\nDave: And I'm not kidding\u2014I said this in the endorsement for their book\u2014do you remember?\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave:We wrote this: \u201cThese are two of the best thinkers, in my opinion, in the world\u2014not the country, not the state of Michigan, not Florida\u2014the world on apologetics, and Christian thinking, and theology.\u201d We've got Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell. Welcome guys.\r\n\r\nTim: Thank you. \r\n\r\nSean: Thanks. This is a treat. \r\n\r\nTim: Wow! We need to be here more often. \r\n\r\nSean: Man, alive;\u2014\r\n\r\nTim: That sounded great. \r\n\r\nSean: \u2014quite the intro; appreciate that.\r\n\r\nDave:I didn't even think what I was going to say; I just feel that way about you guys. You guys think so well-rounded about important, divisive topics of anybody I know in the country.\r\n\r\nAnn: But it's the way you communicate them; you don't push people away. It reminds me of the winsomeness of Jesus, how He\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:Oh, wait, wait, wait; you can't be comparative to Jesus!\r\n\r\nAnn: No, no; I\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: You just raised the bar. \r\n\r\nTim: Dave, do not interrupt Ann! \r\n\r\nDave: Okay, sorry; sorry. \r\n\r\nTim: Go with it, Ann; go with the Spirit. \r\n\r\nAnn: This is totally of God. It's that He was winsome; everyone was drawn to Him. No matter where they stood politically, theologically, they were all drawn to Him.\r\n\r\nDave:They're going to go home, and tell their wives, \u201cHey, we were compared to Jesus.\u201d\r\n\r\nTim: I'm going to play this, opening every class, the start of every semester at Biola University.\r\n\r\nDave:Well, tell our listeners what you do. You both are profs at Biola in different areas, so tell us what you do.\r\n\r\nTim: I'm a professor of communication.\r\n\r\nDave:Did you have hair when you started, like me? \r\n\r\nTim: I did; yeah, I did.\r\n\r\nDave:You have a little.\r\n\r\nTim: One time, I was lecturing; and students started laughing in my class. They Googled me with hair, and I docked them all five points; because they shouldn't be on social media. But five years\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: Maybe, you're not so winsome; I don\u2019t know.\r\n\r\nTim: That\u2019s right. \r\n\r\nFive years ago, Biola started the Winsome Conviction Project; because all of us were concerned that we're just losing the ability to talk to each other about really important topics. So we just got back from Capitol Hill, talking to self-professed Christian leaders in the Pentagon, Capitol Hill. We need it; I think the country feels it. I think families deeply feel: \u201cWe're losing the ability to talk to each other.\u201d And so that's what we try to do with the Winsome Conviction Project. \r\n\r\nI've been a long-admirer of Sean. We've literally known each other\u2014I think we figured this out one time\u2014how many years, Sean?\r\n\r\nSean:About 25 years. \r\n\r\nDave: Really?\r\n\r\nTim: About 25 years.\r\n\r\nSean:Yes, that's right.\r\n\r\nTim: And of course, we all know his dad, Josh McDowell; we all grew up with Josh.\r\n\r\nDave:I picked Josh up at the airport, in 1978, at Ball State University.\r\n\r\nTim: Wow!\r\n\r\nSean: Wow; you remember the year and the place. That\u2019s impressive.\r\n\r\nDave:Well, I was a college student; so obviously, I remember the year\u2014and I had a really good football year that year, so I remember that year\u2014it's in the books. But anyway, he was fantastic.\r\n\r\nTim: I'm a huge fan of Sean.\r\n\r\nDave:I might've played him in racquetball.\r\n\r\nTim: I\u2019ve played him in racquetball.\r\n\r\nSean:You did?\r\n\r\nAnn: Is he a racquetball player?\r\n\r\nTim: I played your dad in racquetball when he came to Miami of Ohio University in Oxford, Ohio.\r\n\r\nAnn: What year was that?\r\n\r\nTim: I can't remember\u2014I'm bad at years\u2014you're great Dave. \r\n\r\nBut Sean's a professor; he has a YouTube channel that I love. It\u2019s absolutely amazing.\r\n\r\nDave: I love it! He\u2019s going to introduce you, Sean.\r\n\r\nTim: No, I'm just giving him the handoff. Sean's amazing; the faculty at Biola are great. So Sean, what do you do?\r\n\r\nSean:When I was eight, somebody asked me, \u201cHow does your dad react to losing at handball?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:We played racquetball.\r\n\r\nSean:Oh, oh, it was racquetball\u2014\r\n\r\nTim: We did; it was racquetball.\r\n\r\nSean: I'll take that back; it was racquetball.\r\n\r\nDave:He would have in his [bag] when he traveled.\r\n\r\nTim: It was; it was.\r\n\r\nDave:I remember racquetball, and so I played him.\r\n\r\nSean:My response was, \u201cI've never seen him lose.\u201d Now, if you beat him, just don't say anything; so I can keep that narrative going. That's how I remember it.\r\n\r\nDave:I did not beat him.\r\n\r\nSean:I grew up\u2014my dad\/my parents were, and are, on Cru, so just a heart for evangelism\u2014but my interest, which will make sense, is in apologetics. I also teach at Biola, Talbot School of Theology, an apologetics class on the problem of evil, defense of the resurrection; write books; speak, run a YouTube channel. And [I] try to model a lot of things we're going to get into in the book\u2014just having conversations with progressive Christians, agnostics, atheists, Muslims\u2014and I enjoy sitting down, just trying to find common ground with people, getting clarity on what they believe, clarifying differences, and just hearing people out\u2014showing, in our crazy culture today, you can actually have meaningful conversations, which I think is one way of loving people today; and so that's why I try to do so. \r\n\r\nTim asked me about this book; and I was like, \u201cLet's go.\u201d It was one of the easiest books I've written\u2014it took a ton of time\u2014it was just trying to express the things that you and I are trying to do in our life and ministry.\r\n\r\nDave:When we picked up your book, End the Stalemate, a thought came to my head; and it was a song.\r\n\r\nSean:Here we go!\r\n\r\nDave:Okay, I thought, \u201cTim\u2019s old enough\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: Did he do a song for either of you yet? \r\n\r\nSean: He did, last time I was here. \r\n\r\nDave: Oh, I did a song when you were here last time?\r\n\r\nSean: We talked about chasing love, and you did some love song. \r\n\r\nDave:Oh, yeah! It was\/you had it in your book. \r\n\r\nBut Tim's old enough to remember this song\u2014he was a kid when this came out, like me\u2014but Sean might be a little younger. The lyrics are sort of about that\u2014[We Can Work It Out\u00a9; Artists and Writers: Paul McCarney and John Lennon; Produced by George Martin, December 3, 1965] \u2014\u201cTry to see it my way. Do I have to keep on talking 'til I can't go on?\u201d You know the song?\r\n\r\nTim: Yes! Yeah, yeah. \r\n\r\nDave: \u201cWhile you see it your way, run the risk of knowing that our love may soon be gone. We can work it out. We can work it out.\u201d Come on, Ann!\r\n\r\nDave and Ann: \u201cLife is very short, and there's no time for fussing and fighting, my friend. \r\n\r\nI have always thought that it's a cry; so I will ask you.\u201d You remember that song?\u2014We Can Work It Out. \r\n\r\nWhat year? What year was it? \r\n\r\nDave: 1967 or \u201868. \r\n\r\nTim: Wow. \r\n\r\nDave: I was probably ten years old. I'm a Beatles nut with A Hard Day's Night\u00a9, when I was eight years old, and fell in love. \r\n\r\nBut anyway, it's a song that McCartney and Lennon wrote about ending the stalemate. And again, I'm just having fun\u2014it's a ridiculous song\u2014but when I saw End the Stalemate, I thought, \u201cThey were trying to say\u201d\u2014and a lot of people aren't like me, Beatle nuts; when you go to the backstories of their song, they're like\u2014\u201cThere's all kinds of fighting and fussing; nobody can get along. I can only see my side; you can only see your side.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cTry to see it my way.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:And they just wrote this simple little fun song, with an accordion, that became a number-one hit about that. When I read End the Stalemate, I thought, \u201cThat's what you're trying to do.\u201d \r\n\r\nBut here's what I want to start with\u2014here's the subtitle\u2014Move Past Cancel Culture to Meaningful Conversations. Explain and talk about cancel culture.\r\n\r\nAnn: And how appropriate for the timing, for you guys to be on; because we are in the week of election\u2014the election\u2014the Presidential election. And so there's a lot of conversations that are going on that are really difficult.\r\n\r\nTim: Well, let me give you some bad news; and then, let me give you some good news. The bad news is there was a survey done by Pew Research, where 33 percent of respondents said, \u201cI no longer talk to a family member, because of the 2016 Presidential election.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014a family member!\r\n\r\nTim: \u2014family member. They have stopped talking completely to this family member, based on that election; that's the bad news. \r\n\r\nHere's the good news\u2014and this is almost why we wrote the book\u2014is 98 percent of Americans\u2014think about that; and people say, \u201cAmericans don't agree on anything.\u201d Ninety-eight percent of us would say incivility is a threat to this country. So the majority of us really do believe we got to work it out\u2014we have to find a way of pushing past our differences and talking to each other\u2014and we feel that. So that's why we sat down and wrote the book\u2014is we're speaking to the majority of Americans, who are like\u2014\"We can't continue on this trajectory, because it is not good for our country. It's not good for our families. So let's find a way to end the stalemate and be productive.\u201d\r\n\r\nSean:Cancel culture is a term that's not only in the US. I was asked to speak on cancel culture, last year, in the Philippines.\r\n\r\nDave:Really.\r\n\r\nAnn: Really?\r\n\r\nSean:It's become a global phenomena. It was tied to political issues there: tied to issues of sexuality there; tied to other ethical issues. It's basically: \u201cIf somebody holds a position that you deem\u2014improper, or wrong, or mistaken; or says something you find offensive\u2014then, use social media, primarily, to target and try to cancel that person's livelihood or platform.\u201d Other people just start piling on to cancel somebody. \r\n\r\nThe reality is it's a phenomena that cuts across politics; it cuts across religion. And what happens is\u2014as Christians, I think we make one of two mistakes\u2014either we go: \r\n\r\n\u201cWell, you're going to cancel us, I'm going to cancel you; because there still are a lot of people with power and influence, who are Christians.\u201d\r\n\r\nOr we act in fear; and we become afraid to say anything, because we will get canceled. \r\n\r\nAnd that's an understandable fear. There's a lot of times, where I'm about to say something; I think, \u201cOkay, how do I word this in a way to make sure I don't lose my job?\u201d\u2014\"somebody doesn't come after me?\u201d I try to be as gracious as possible. I think it's impossible to avoid those voices, and we should have them to a degree, and be thoughtful about what we say. We're at the point where censorship is coming in; name calling is coming in; and we've just lost the ability to communicate with each other.\r\n\r\nDave:So where do we go? Because Sean, I've literally done that. I've gone quiet\/silent in some ways, especially socially social media. Last night, I saw a post of somebody I know. All the comments started going, and I had all kinds of thoughts; and I'm like, \u201cNope; I want to have a meaningful conversation, even online, with people I don't even know.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Well, \u201cIs it productive?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:The fear was like, \u201cIs it worth it? I'm going to be misunderstood; then, it's going to go to another. I'm just going to stay out.\u201d I find myself doing that more than engaging; because I don't think it's worth it, because I know we're going to be divided.\r\n\r\nAnn: And that's my question, too: \u201cIs it productive?\u201d I mean, are we getting on there to change somebody's mind? Because it seems like we're using platforms to change somebody. \u201cDoes that change somebody?\u201d\r\n\r\nSean:Part of the question is: \u201cWhat's the goal in engaging in a conversation?\u201d Is it to get retweets?\u2014then, you try to be provocative; you rile up your group; you defend yourself. That's how you sell books; that's how you get followers; that's how you get subscribers. \u201cIs the goal to win an argument?\u201d I think, when it's all said and done, there only should be one goal of what we communicate and how we communicate it; that is, \u201cTo speak the truth in love.\u201d If that's not our goal\u2014to love people\u2014then, what's the point? I think we forget that. \r\n\r\nNow, love doesn't mean you don't speak truth; you need to speak truth. It's truth that sets people free. But do we communicate it in a way that's effective and helpful? I think there's wisdom, like you said, in holding back. I see stuff\u2014and I want to weigh in\u2014I want to comment. Can't tell you how many times I go, \u201cOh, I didn't know that; I didn't have that angle. I'm sure glad I waited and was patient before I commented or I would've gotten piled on\u201d; and maybe, rightly so, in a few circumstances. So there's wisdom in holding back; but there's also a sense of: \u201cAm I holding back so much that I'm not speaking?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: Right\r\n\r\nSean: Yeah, it should be motivated by love. If that's not our goal, what's the point?\r\n\r\nTim: And I would just add to that: the book, I think, will work for politics; I think it really will. \u201cWill it work on Capitol Hill?\u201d\u2014t wasn't necessarily written for that; it really is written for the dinner table. \r\n\r\nAnn, what you just said, I think there's wisdom in keeping silent\u2014maybe, on social media about different issues\u2014but when it's your family, there's only so many times you can just stay silent. We know latent conflict is the conflict that's underneath the surface. So every time you bring something up in the marriage\u2014and I just go, \u201cNope, I'm not going to say anything, because we're just going to get into an argument,\u201d\u2014you can only play that card so many times within a marriage or a family, where now, there's so much under the carpet, it's affecting every conversation. \r\n\r\nThe book isn't trying to fix America, at large; it really is meant to be taken with family members, roommates, coworkers, the places we live. We do need to, eventually, talk about these topics. And this is helping people:\r\n\r\n\u201cPrepare to have the conversation,\u201d\u2014which is a big part of the book\u2014\u201cDon't just launch into conversations.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnd then, \u201cWhat do you do during it?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnd \u201cWhat do you do after the conversation?\u201d\r\n\r\n[This] is kind of how we package the book.\r\n\r\nAnn: Well, you guys have teens and young adults; and you're teaching young adults, all the time. So guide us\u2014teach us, as moms and dads\u2014\u201cHow do we have those conversations if we're on totally different playing fields at the dinner table?\u201d or \u201cOn Sunday, if your kids happen to come over, should we not go there?\u201d It's sounding like you're saying, \u201cSometimes, you should.\u201d\r\n\r\nSean:I think step number one is \u201cHaving a relationship.\u201d A lot of the conversations; for example, that I'll have at churches, or on YouTube\u2014work well, in part, because there's a relationship with a person and there's trust. If that's not there, it doesn't matter when or how you have the conversation. That's true with an atheist; that's true with your kids; that's true with a coworker. I mean, the Bible talks about love covers a multitude of sins, right? If there's love there, then, \u201cI'm going to let that comment go,\u201d\u2014not to bury it; like you say, \u201cWe don't want to bury stuff,\u201d\u2014but \u201cbecause I love you, and I know what you meant.\u201d \r\n\r\nSo step number one is just: \u201cBuild that relationship.\u201d If you want to talk to the kids about anything that matters\u2014spend time, going to their baseball games; spend time, talking with them; spend time, swimming with them; spend time, playing video games with them\u2014relationship, relationship, relationship. \r\n\r\nSecond is: \u201cIt's got to be the right time, and it's got to be in the right way.\u201d Sometimes, kids come home from school; and parents are like, \u201cHey, how was your day?\u201d\u2014and it's just not the right time for a kid to talk. I think, if we would think through\u2014\u201cBuild a relationship and the right time,\u201d\u2014the vast majority of people, hence, your statistic earlier, Tim\u2014want to have a meaningful conversation about issues that matter if we'll, at least, get those two things right for starters.\r\n\r\nTim: And Sean's, literally, working through the book of Proverbs, right? I mean, a wise man overlooks an insult\u2014\u201cI'm not going to bury it forever; but okay, you just said that;\u201d\u2014[sound of pushing a button]\u2014\u201cthat just pushed the button\/that really pushed the button; but now is not the time; now is not the place.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnd then, there's another Proverb that says: \u201cA word spoken in the right circumstance is compared to fine jewelry.\u201d I would add just one thing to what Sean's saying. I love the thing about building relationships\u2014that's so huge\u2014but when we're going to talk about the hot-button issues; and every marriage and family, you create this list pretty quick: \u201cWe got to be careful going there.\u201d \r\n\r\nOne of my kids, we disagree about politics\u2014we just do\u2014he's brilliant. So here's the funny thing about writing a book like this, okay? We're, literally, writing End the Stalemate; we're in the process of writing it. My child, on the phone, mentions a study\/a political study he loves it; I do not agree. So I had that moment\u2014I, literally, had that moment\u2014that probably every listener has; which is, \u201cI don't think this is\u2026I'm doing it.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Wait; take us back to the conversation. How did it start?\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nTim: Okay, he brought it up.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yeah,\r\n\r\nTim: It was a little bit: poking the bear; he knew it. I love him to death; deeply respect him\u2014very smart child\u2014and he poked the bear. I just sat there, writing this book, going, \u201cI'm not ready for this. My heart is not ready to have this conversation.\u201d Then, me being me, I launched right into it. You know it's going bad\u2014when your wife walks outside, looks at you, and goes, \u201cShh!\u201d\u2014because my heart wasn't in the right place. \r\n\r\nIn the book, we take a ton of time to say, \u201cBefore you have this conversation, you got to deal with your heart.\u201d The heart is mentioned 500 times in the Bible. Jesus says it is from your heart that you speak. So we really are big advocates of: you need to sit with these topics, and say, \u201cLord, what is happening in my heart when this topic comes up? There's no sense of humor anymore on my part; my humor has evaporated. I get really defensive when this topic comes up.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Why does this make me so happy? It makes me\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: I don\u2019t know, and why are you looking at me?\r\n\r\nAnn: No, because I can relate to this. \r\n\r\nTim: Right!\r\n\r\nAnn: Okay; well, finish off: \u201cWhat happened?\u201d\r\n\r\nTim: Okay. Oh, well, it did not go well.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014because\u2014\r\n\r\nDave:Surprise; surprise.\r\n\r\nTim: Surprise; surprise. I raised my voice. We were cutting each other off\u2014he's a lawyer; I was on the debate team\u2014there's a recipe for disaster. So we hung up: \u201cLove you,\u201d \u201cLove you; bye\u201d; boom! \r\n\r\nAnd then, when the Holy Spirit shows up, it's just such a bummer; it's like, \u201cRemind Me what you do for a living,\u201d \u201cI'm a Christian professor,\u201d \u201cRight! And what book are you writing right now?\u201d \u201cEnd the Stalemate,\u201d \u201cWas that good? Did you do anything you\u2026\u201d \r\n\r\nI had to wait\u2014I had to cool down\u2014and then, I called him back, and said, \u201cHey, my bad; that was not good.\u201d And he said, \u201cYeah, I agree.\u201d We set up a time; and then, we tried to have the conversation. It was like a week later or something like that. I needed to prepare emotionally, spiritually; I needed to ask a fundamental question: \u201cAm I open to his perspective?\u201d I wasn't\u2014when that thing happened, I wasn't open\u2014I wanted to set him straight. So now, I need to go back to the Lord, and say, \u201cOkay, make me open to his perspective.\u201d That's a process; it took me a while to get there.\r\n\r\nAnn: Do we need to be open to their perspective?\r\n\r\nTim: I think if this is your child\u2014again, this is situation-specific\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: Right; okay.\r\n\r\nTim: \u2014I'm saying Marital Communication 101; Parenting 101\u2014I think it's going to go along: \u201cThis is the Rule of Reciprocation,\u201d\u2014you generally treat me the way I treat you. If I'm not open to [his] perspective, then how can I ask my child to be open to my perspective? That\u2019s spiritual preparation to do that: I need to be ready to listen and not get defensive. We talk about \u201cbreath prayer\u201d as the conversation is happening; I'm, literally, praying as conversation [takes place], \u201cLord, okay; that was hard to hear. I really don't agree with that, but make me open. Let me listen, knowing I'm going to get to the point where I can share my perspective.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:Yeah; you're talking about, now, the pre-conversation preparation; because part of me thinks pre-conversation is: \u201cI'm getting all my points ready. I'm going to nail you, and here's my five points,\u201d and \u201cI know what you're thinking.\u201d That's part of it\u2014you got to know what you believe in, what they believe in, how you have a conversation\u2014but you're talking much deeper. You're talking heart\u2014right?\u2014when you talk pre-conversation.\r\n\r\nSean:Well, spontaneous conversation is the one you [Tim] described. They come out of, seemingly, out of nowhere; and there's no preparation. You're not expecting it; and that's, often, when we say things we want to take back, in the moment, which is a reminder for us\u2014on the flip side\u2014if you were triggered by this, understandably so: \u201cAre we dropping little rhetorical bombs for other people to trigger them at certain times? What are we expecting?\u201d Well, then, that's on us for doing that, even if the person responds in a way that they shouldn't.\r\n\r\nAnn: Give us an example of a rhetorical bomb.\r\n\r\nSean:A rhetorical bomb that could just be over the dinner table\u2014dropping something about an election, right?\u2014\"This person won,\u201d or \u201cAre you sad this person lost?\u201d\u2014and it's like: \u201cWell, what do you think I'm feeling right now?!\u201d\u2014that kind of reaction. It could be on any issue; it could be on a sports team, whatever. So those are just little statements, where if we're really analyzing our hearts, we know\u2014to use Tim's term\u2014we're kind of \u201cpoking the bear.\u201d\r\n\r\nI can think back of times that I've done that to other people, and I don't love that I've treated them that way. I remember a comment, probably 15 years ago, my neighbor had a big bumper sticker of a politician that I was not in favor of. I just made a comment like, \u201cHey, what do you think about that election?\u201d\u2014because his politician lost. And later, I'm like, \u201cWhat a low lame thing to say,\u201d especially because he wasn't a Christian. I partly\/probably 80 percent of it was in fun, but that 20 percent was not! So those are the kind of things we need to not say. \r\n\r\nIt's hard to prep for a conversation like that when it comes up; and in the moment, there's everything within you. So before we come back to the pre-conversation, I just want to say that\u2014and I've told you this, Tim\u2014that I don't think anyone has shaped the way I communicate more, or try to communicate more than Tim. He's a communication professor. \r\n\r\nBut [his] story illustrates: \u201cYou do this for a living; you research this; you practice this, and still have moments that you regret. If that's going to happen to you, it's going to happen to all of us.\u201d If you want to get better at communicating, it's going to be one step forward; maybe, two or three steps back, especially in our divided culture. I think the vast majority of people\u2014if there's a relationship there, and we just own it\u2014we\u2019ll be quick to forgive, and you just grow out of it.\r\n\r\nTim: So pass! Pass; right? Every holiday that comes, all of us, in all of our platforms, we do the holiday conversation episode: \u201cWhat's going to happen at Thanksgiving?\u201d \u201cWhat's going to happen at Christmas?\u201d My point would be learn how to pass when something comes up: \u201cI'm not going to bite.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: So your son calls; he brings up\u2014\r\n\r\nTim: Okay; I would say, if I'm in a good place spiritually, I would say, \u201cOkay, what did the study say?\u201d And then, as I'm listening to the study\u2014that honestly, I'm going, \u201cNo, no, no\u2019 nope,\u201d\u2014but I'm not going to vocalize that; because the first step, in any conversation, is I want to do what is called \u201cperspective taking\u201d: \u201cI want to see the world through your perspective.\u201d \r\n\r\nSo here's a study that my child thinks is a really good study: \u201cOkay, why do you think it's a really good study?\u201d \u201cWhat in that study really speaks to you?\u201d \u201cWhy do you trust this study?\u201d Now again, tone is everything; we all know this. Because if I go [demanding], \u201cWell, why do you trust this study?\u201d \u201cWhat is it about this study?\u201d\u2014that tone just sabotaged the whole conversation.\r\n\r\nAnn: So you wouldn't necessarily pass on that conversation with your son.\r\n\r\nTim: I might say, \u201cYeah, tell me about the study. Hey, you know what?\u2014shoot me the link. I'd love to read that study; and then, let's talk about it.\u201d Now, when we're going to talk about it, I need to have prepared. So we need to practice doing something called \u201cperspective taking.\u201d \r\n\r\nThe cool thing we did with the book is we hired a really talented web designer to create a website; it's called EndTheStalemate.com\u2014totally free\u2014you don't need to have read the book. We're going to present to you perspectives, that we know one of them you're not going to agree with; you're just going to listen to it. And you're going to go, \u201cI do not agree with this person.\u201d But we're going to ask you to not have a knee-jerk reaction; but to stop, and say: \u201cOkay, Lord, let me, at least, be open to the perspective. Let me flow what they're saying so, at least, I understand it. Then, let me try to find common ground; and then, I can disagree.\u201d\r\n\r\nLet's work through that progression and get used to doing that. Because of the political season, if you go to it right now, there\u2019s going to be two really articulate Christians. One's going to argue a particular way; the other's going to argue in a different way. We just want you to sit with it and prepare your heart to hear from both of them. Now, if you're like\u2014\u201cI don't want to hear that person; I'm not going to listen to that person,\u201d\u2014\u201cWell, okay, I need to sit before the Lord, and to say, \u2018Am I, at least, open to hearing what they have to say, with a charitable spirit?\u2019\u201d The great thing about this website is it's in the privacy of your own home. You can scream at the screen, \u201cThis is stupid!\u201d and you didn't hurt a relationship. I, literally, think we need to practice; so just go to EndTheStalemate.com. Let's start practicing listening to perspectives we don't agree with, but not having knee-jerk bad reactions.\r\n\r\nDave:Well, here's an amazing thing: we barely started, and we're done. We're out of time; I mean, it's crazy to think. I mean, there's so much more I want to talk about, which we're going to talk about tomorrow. But here's where I want to go tomorrow. One of the thoughts is, okay, I'm listening. I've prepared my heart. I'm literally breath praying as I'm listening to your point. And I believe your point is lies; it's not true\u2014it's not just, \u201cOkay, a different perspective,\u201d\u2014it is wrong. I believe that and know\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014\u201cBiblically, it\u2019s totally against the Bible.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave:\u201cHow do I respond?\u201d I'm not just going to go, \u201cOkay, great; you're wrong!\u201d \r\n\r\nTim: I\u2019m so glad we\u2019re out of time! We can't come back tomorrow; we're sorry. \r\n\r\nDave: Okay, you're coming back tomorrow. \r\n\r\nTim: Great question, Dave.\r\n\r\nShelby: I\u2019m Shelby Abbott; and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson, with Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell, on FamilyLife Today. Tim and Sean have written a book called End the Stalemate: Move Past Cancel Culture to Meaningful Conversations. This book is really for anyone who feels kind of just disheartened by the current state of the conversation that's happening in culture right now and wants to learn how to foster just more meaningful, respectful conversations in a culture of division. If that's interesting to you, or you feel like you could really benefit from that, you can get your copy of Tim and Sean's book, End the Stalemate, right now, by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com. Or you could click on the link in the show notes, or feel free to give us a call at 800-358-6329 to request your copy. Again, that number is 800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word, TODAY.\r\n\r\nSo we've talked about this a lot, obviously, today. We're living in a time right now of just great tension and division. We're experiencing that, not only amongst people who are surrounding us in our neighborhoods, but also in our families, and even on social media. But Psalm 1:33 tells us it's good for believers to live in unity with one another. \u201cHow do we do that when everybody feels like they're angry all the time?\u201d Well, I'm excited to invite you to join us, here, at FamilyLife for a five-week video series from our friend\u2014author and comedian\u2014Amberly Neese. It's called \u201cMoving Toward Each Other in the Middle of a Divisive World.\u201d It's really about building peace amongst the people who are around us instead of creating division. You can sign up for this five-week video series by going online to FamilyLife.com\/FindingCommonGround, or just finding it in the show notes today. Again, that's FamilyLife.com\/FindingCommonGround. \r\n\r\nNow, coming up tomorrow, Tim Muehlhoff and Sean McDowell are going to be here to help us transform kind of our heated debates into more meaningful dialogues with people. That's tomorrow; we hope you'll join us. On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.\r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nIf you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. 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