{"id":308505,"date":"2024-05-28T09:00:00","date_gmt":"2024-05-28T13:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/when-you-cant-forgive-them-philip-yancey-2\/"},"modified":"2024-11-19T04:15:08","modified_gmt":"2024-11-19T09:15:08","slug":"when-you-cant-forgive-them-philip-yancey-2","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/when-you-cant-forgive-them-philip-yancey-2\/","title":{"rendered":"When You Can\u2019t Forgive Them: Philip Yancey"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Constantly finding reasons not to forgive that one person (you know the one)? Giving kindness, even when it feels tough, isn&#8217;t easy. Philip Yancey shows us how grace changes lives&#8211;and maybe even yours.<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Making excuses not to forgive? Philip Yancey shows us how grace changes lives&#8211;and maybe even yours.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280865,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/c97329c6-b154-402f-811b-b17700dd416e\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:25:07","filesize":"23.03M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2024-05-28 09:00:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[9834],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-308505","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","cwp_profile-philip-yancey","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/06\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/308505\/when-you-cant-forgive-them-philip-yancey-2","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/308505\/when-you-cant-forgive-them-philip-yancey-2","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"bEfaFnID0f\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/when-you-cant-forgive-them-philip-yancey-2\/\">When You Can\u2019t Forgive Them: Philip Yancey<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/when-you-cant-forgive-them-philip-yancey-2\/embed\/#?secret=bEfaFnID0f\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;When You Can\u2019t Forgive Them: Philip Yancey&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"bEfaFnID0f\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["c97329c6-b154-402f-811b-b17700dd416e"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/c97329c6-b154-402f-811b-b17700dd416e\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:25:07"],"filesize":["23.03M"],"show_notes":["\n<ul>\n<li>Connect with Philip Yancey and catch more of their thoughts at <a href=\"http:\/\/philipyancey.com\/\">philipyancey.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>...And grab Philip Yancey\u2019s book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/whats-so-amazing-about-grace-revised-and-updated\">What's So Amazing About Grace<\/a> in our shop.<\/li>\n<li>Intrigued by today\u2019s episode? Think deeper about forgiveness by listening to <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-blended-minute\/take-off-put-on-forgiveness-2\/\">Take Off, Put On: Forgiveness<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Want to hear more episodes by <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/philip-yancey\/\">Philip, listen here<\/a>!<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><strong>FamilyLife Today Links:\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/may-2024\/?cru_source=D0002405RB&cru_medium=RadioBanner&cru_premium=PRE21802&cru_campaign=May2024&utm_source=web&utm_medium=radiobanner&utm_campaign=may2024\">Double your gift this month<\/a> when you give to FamilyLife!<\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n"],"_edit_lock":["1729039104:47000"],"_thumbnail_id":["280865"],"_edit_last":["47000"],"theme_header_position":["Sticky"],"post_header_is_sticky":["default"],"is_header_overlay":["0"],"episode_type":["audio"],"date_recorded":["2024-05-28 09:00:00"],"enclosure":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/c97329c6-b154-402f-811b-b17700dd416e\/audio.mp3"],"_seopress_redirections_type":["301"],"_seopress_redirections_logged_status":["both"],"_seopress_analysis_target_kw":[""],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-05-28.pdf"],"transcript_content":["\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript\r\n\r\nReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.\r\n\r\nWhen You Can\u2019t Forgive Them\r\n\r\nGuest:Philip Yancey\r\n\r\nFrom the series:When You Can\u2019t Forgive Them (Day 2 of 3)\r\n\r\nAir date:May 28, 2024\r\n\r\nDave: Okay, before we get started today, I\u2019ve got a question for you\u2014not you, Ann [Laughter]\u2014our listener: \u201cWhere are you listening from?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: And you know that we\u2019re from Detroit.\r\n\r\nDave: Motor City.\r\n\r\nAnn: Shelby\u2019s in the Philly area, and our FamilyLife Today headquarters are in Orlando.\r\n\r\nDave: So, we\u2019re coming to you guys from all over the country, but what about you? We would love to know if you are in one of those areas or where else you consider home.\r\n\r\nAnn: Text \u201cFLT\u201d plus where you\u2019re listening from to 80542 to let us know. Again, you\u2019re going to text \u201cFLT\u201d plus where you\u2019re listening from to 80542. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Probably, the most challenging thing Jesus said is: \u201cLove your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.\u201d \u201cWhat are you talking about?! They\u2019re our enemies! You don\u2019t pray! You don\u2019t love your enemies. Why would you do that?\u201d And Jesus said [paraphrased], \u201cWell, very clearly, that\u2019s the only way people will know what the Father\u2019s like.\u201d\r\n\r\nShelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.\r\n\r\nAnn: This is FamilyLife Today!\r\n\r\nDave: So, we\u2019re talking about a subject I just hate talking about\u2014[Laughter]\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014grace.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014a thing called grace. \r\n\r\nAnn: Whew! Getting to talk to Philip Yancey yesterday, I\u2019m still wiping tears from my eyes, because when he talks about grace\u2014when the Bible talks about grace\u2014and when Jesus demonstrates grace, it\u2019s so heavenly. It\u2019s so other worldly; it\u2019s so compelling. \r\n\r\nDave: Philip Yancey is back with us today. Yesterday, Philip, when you were\u2014right toward the end of our program\u2014you were talking about Jesus as the picture of grace. I want you to continue that. I just know this morning, before I left the house, I was in the New Testament, and I\u2019m reading\u2014again, just taking another look at Jesus. How many times have I done this? Thousands of times in my 30-plus years, almost 40 years, of being a Christian. Almost every time, I see something I hadn\u2019t seen, and it\u2019s grace! It\u2019s always a beautiful image of the heart of God.\r\n\r\nYou said, yesterday, Philip, \u201cIf you\u2019ve seen Me, you\u2019ve seen the Father.\u201d Jesus is revealing another aspect of the Father, which is grace. We\u2019re talking today about a book you wrote 25 years ago, and it\u2019s been revised: What\u2019s So Amazing About Grace?\r\n\r\nPhilip: Right.\r\n\r\nDave: Pick up from where you were, because you were talking about Jesus\u2014looking at Jesus\u2014and maybe, even Henri Nouwen\u2019s quote.\r\n\r\nPhilip: That\u2019s right, sure. [Laughter] It was actually a conversation I had with Henri Nouwen\u2014I spent a day with him one time up at his place in Canada, where he was spending his life, dealing with people who were deeply mentally disabled. \r\n\r\nAnn: Tell our audience: who is that?\r\n\r\nPhilip: He is a priest, who is also a psychotherapist, a PhD. He taught at Yale; he taught at Harvard. Finally, he decided, \u201cI\u2019ve had enough of these intellectuals. I\u2019m going to some people who really have needs.\u201d He went to this place and took care of a young man named Adam, who had an IQ of maybe 20 or 25. He spent the last, I think, 15 years of his life caring for Adam.\r\n\r\nWe were talking about that story that exemplifies Jesus, where, in John 4, He visits a woman in a Samaritan village. The Samaritans were the heretics to the Jews, so his disciples said [in a complaining voice]: \u201cWhy would you go there?!\u201d He said, \u201cOh, God\u2019s got something for Me there.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: I like Philip\u2019s contrary voice. [Laughter] Don\u2019t you like it? Yes, I like it.\r\n\r\nPhilip: He went and saw a woman who was picking up water from a well in the middle of the afternoon. That is not a time in the desert when you go out to get water; you go out in the cool of the morning. Why was she there in the afternoon? Well, we\u2019re not really told, but it could be because she was the object of town gossip. She had had five husbands, and even now, she was living with a man who wasn\u2019t her husband. They got into a conversation about water. Jesus said [paraphrased], \u201cI think you\u2019re drinking the wrong water. [Laughter] You need some water that doesn\u2019t run dry.\u201d \r\n\r\nHenri told me a story: back in the days, when the AIDS epidemic was just starting, it was actually called the Gay Men\u2019s Syndrome, because almost all the cases were in San Francisco among gay men. The church was not really treating gay people and people with AIDS very well in those days. There was a lot of fear, and we were kind of getting away from them as far as possible. Henri thought, \u201cWell, that\u2019s not right.\u201d He went to see them. There was a clinic there. He described to me the condition they were in; they had sores all over their body and inside their mouths. There was no cure at all; they were almost 100 percent dying. \r\n\r\nHe said he would just go from bedside to bedside and say, \u201cHello. I\u2019m a clergy. What we do is listen to people\u2019s stories. Would you like to tell your story? If you don\u2019t, I\u2019ll just go to the next bed.\u201d He said some people said [shouting gruffly], \u201cClergy?! Get out of here! I don\u2019t want to have anything to do with the church, the way they treated me.\u201d \u201cFine. I\u2019ll go to the next bed. I will pray for you, though.\u201d\r\n\r\nBut other people did tell [him] their stories. He said, \u201cPhilip, you couldn\u2019t believe these stories. When I went there, I thought, \u2018What about these immoral people? What about these loose-living people?\u2019 When I came back, I thought, \u2018What about these thirsty people? They\u2019re thirsty for love, and they\u2019re not finding it. Where can they find it?\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nWe talked about how similar that was to the passage in John 4: this woman hadn\u2019t found it either. She was still looking. Jesus\u2014it\u2019s the only place in the Gospels where He voluntarily identified Himself, who He was, to somebody who didn\u2019t know. He said, \u201cDo you know who I am? I am the Messiah.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: And it\u2019s a woman! It\u2019s a woman.\r\n\r\nPhilip: It\u2019s a woman, a heretic woman.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014a heretic woman, yes.\r\n\r\nPhilip: Actually, if you look back on it, she was probably His first missionary; His first foreign missionary. [Laughter] He [made] a good choice, because she went back and it says [she] converted the entire town; this woman because they could see the changes in her. She used to be someone that you gossiped about and tell your children, \u201cDon\u2019t ever be like her!\u201d And now, suddenly, \u201cYou want what she\u2019s got,\u201d because it transformed her. I think that\u2019s a beautiful model of what we should look like to the rest of the world.\r\n\r\nDave: You\u2019ve got to tell this story\u2014and I know you told it the last time you were here\u2014[of] when you were in that Bible study (that prayer group) in college, and you realized who you are, that\u2019s a grace story. I\u2019d love our audience to hear that again, because I\u2019m guessing some have never heard. I know it\u2019s in your memoir\u2014\r\n\r\nPhilip: \u2014right, right\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014Where the Light Fell.\r\n\r\nPhilip: Right.\r\n\r\nDave: Just mention that, because it\u2019s such a beautiful story of you realizing who you were and what you needed.\r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes, right. I mentioned that I went to this little church that had the truth. There were about 100 of us, and we were superior to everybody. [Laughter] \r\n\r\nDave: I was in that church, too! [Laughter]\r\n\r\nPhilip: We were also racists and all these other things. And then, I realized that church was wrong about race, about a lot of things they taught me. So, I swung the other way as far as I could go and started judging them. You know, \u201cthese ignorant fundamentalists. I don\u2019t want anything to do with them.\u201d \r\n\r\nI ended up in a Bible college campus. That same judgmental attitude followed me there. We had to have a Christian service. The Christian service I chose was to go to a university campus and, supposedly, witness. Instead, I would usually sit in the student center and watch basketball. [Laughter] The guys with me would witness, then I\u2019d come back, and we\u2019d write these stories about all the people we talked to. Mine were very loosely told, shall we say. \r\n\r\nAnd we had to have a prayer meeting each week. We did, and I never prayed. There were four of us. The three guys would take turns praying, and then, they would pause about ten seconds. I never prayed. And they would say, \u201cThanks, guys! See you next week.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnd then, one time, I just\u2014without thinking about it at all, I just\u2014started praying. I said, \u201cGod!\u201d Everything got very tense. I said, \u201cAs You know, I don\u2019t care if all ten thousand people at the university go to hell.\u201d You could cut that with a knife at a Bible college prayer meeting. \"In fact, I don\u2019t even care if I go to hell.\u201d \r\n\r\nI had a vision. It was a life-changing vision, the only one like that or anything close to that I\u2019ve had. We had just been studying the Good Samaritan. I started talking about the parable of the Good Samaritan: \u201cI know we\u2019re supposed to be like the Good Samaritan, reaching down to this wretch in a ditch here, and helping them.\u201d And then, suddenly, as I was talking, that vision changed, and I saw the person in the ditch was me. \r\n\r\nHere I thought I was smarter, more sophisticated than these fundamentalist types; and I realized I was the neediest one of all. Every time Jesus\u2014because the Good Samaritan took on the face of Jesus\u2014every time the Good Samaritan reached out to help me, I would spit in His face. Three times it happened; three times. And then, I didn\u2019t know what to do, so I just got up and left the room. \r\n\r\nThat changed my life. Here, I\u2019ve made my career as a Christian writer, and it all goes back to that moment. It was a moment of grace, where I realized I was the needy one. Unless you come to some point of realizing that\u2014and a lot of people don\u2019t; it\u2019s like, \u201cI can get along fine without You, God.\u201d They\u2019re the losers; they\u2019re the losers. I realized that for the first time.\r\n\r\nDave: Hearing you say that again, it\u2019s such a beautiful story, because we resist being the one in the ditch. We don\u2019t want to be that one; we want to be anything but that. Grace does a work until you admit that\u2014is that true? Until you\u2019re able to say, \u201cI need it\u201d?\r\n\r\nPhilip: In some way, yes. Look at the rich young ruler, and the story there. Jesus would always find: \u201cWhat is that one need?\u201d [Laughter] \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes, yes.\r\n\r\nPhilip: And He pretty well exposed him; his need was a need to be rich! \u201cI\u2019d rather be rich than to be loved by God.\u201d That was the choice, because Jesus said [paraphrased], \u201cHere, do these things.\u201d \u201cOh, I\u2019ve already done all those.\u201d \u201cOh, okay. Give away all your money.\u201d \u201cUh, talk to You later. I\u2019m out of here.\u201d [Laughter] \r\n\r\nGod will often do this\u2014not like God has to devastate us\u2014but until we understand it\u2019s not about how much better we are than other people, or how much like God we are even; it\u2019s how open we are to receiving God\u2019s free gift. Jesus has already done the work. That\u2019s the point of the gospel: Jesus has done it. So, you don\u2019t have to do it; you just have to follow Jesus in the way that He set out.\r\n\r\nAnn: When you say that Jesus saw grace everywhere He went, and then, He communicated that through His parables, what do you mean by that? \"He saw it everywhere He went.\u201d\r\n\r\nPhilip: Part of it, I think, was the common grace that spoke to me, too, because when Jesus is telling a story, what does He use? He uses wild flowers. He says\u2014somebody says something about King Solomon [paraphrasing]: \u201cNow, there was a king. Man, he had 800 wives\u2026\u201d Jesus says, \u201cYou know what? See that lily over there? It\u2019s more beautiful than Solomon ever was,\u201d you know? There\u2019s kind of that common grace. \r\n\r\nAnd then, even in people who were the outcasts\u2014literally, outcasts\u2014those with leprosy, the disease I know a lot about because I wrote three books with Dr. Paul Brand, who was a leprosy specialist in India. Those are the most abused people on the entire planet. There is nobody lower than somebody of\u2014what used to be called the untouchable caste\u2014now Dalits in India, who has leprosy. They\u2019re kicked out of their homes; their kicked out of their villages\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014still?\r\n\r\nPhilip: \u2014still, yes. Many of them live in a pile of rocks somewhere. Somebody will take a bucket of food over every few days. Because people are so afraid of leprosy\u2014which is not that contagious; it\u2019s not that dangerous\u2014but the fear persists. It was really strong in Jesus\u2019 day. Jesus would touch a person with leprosy. Jesus dispensed grace to the outcasts. \r\n\r\nProbably, the most challenging thing He said, for us, as Americans is: \u201cLove your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.\u201d I mentioned that one time. I was writing a book on prayer. I stood up in the pulpit, and I said, \u201cI\u2019ve never done that. I\u2019ve never prayed for Russia. What would happen if every church in the United States adopted a terrorist\u2014and these people who are trying to blow us up in Iraq and Afghanistan\u2014and just prayed for them?\u201d \r\n\r\nThere was a guy I didn\u2019t know (he drove up from Colorado Springs) who was a chaplain and the rank of Colonel. That got to him. So, he started a website called atfp.org (Adopt a Terrorist for Prayer.org). [Laughter]\r\n\r\nDave: Wow!\r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, my!!\r\n\r\nDave: Wow.\r\n\r\nPhilip: You can go\u2014you still can; you can go\u2014on that site, and you can see a little biography and a picture of a terrorist; all the terrible things he\u2019s done. You have to agree to pray for them on a regular basis.\r\n\r\nWell, his commanding officer, the General, got a hold of this, called him [screaming], \u201cWhat the\u2026?! What are you doing here?!!! [Laughter] I\u2019m trying to teach these guys to kill! And you\u2019re trying to teach them to love and pray?!!\u201d \r\n\r\nActually, I think that was the disciples\u2019 response, too, when Jesus said that: \u201cWhat are you talking about?!! They\u2019re our enemies! You don\u2019t pray! You don\u2019t love your enemies. Why would you do that?\u201d Jesus said [paraphrased], \u201cWell, very clearly, that\u2019s the only way people will know what the Father\u2019s like, because God causes the rain to fall and the sun to shine on the evil and the good, alike. That\u2019s the kind of God you have.\u201d Unless you can show that to the rest of the world, by doing something as crazy as loving your enemies, they\u2019ll miss that message of grace.\r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, I\u2019m just telling you: that is so convicting. I\u2019m just thinking\u2014the person that you just struggle with or\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014it could be a family member.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014it could be your spouse. I mean, that is. . .  \u201cLove them. Pray for them. Do good to those who hurt you.\u201d That is so other worldly.\r\n\r\nDave: Philip, talk about forgiveness. When you talk about loving your enemies or loving your family, but you\u2019ve got hurt, and wounds, and bitterness\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014that are terrible.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014that maybe they have a history or story\u2014or maybe, it\u2019s decades. God calls us to forgive just as we\u2019ve been forgiven; that\u2019s grace.\r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes, He does. You\u2019re absolutely right. I have maybe five chapters in this book, What\u2019s So Amazing About Grace? about forgiveness. The publisher took those and some other material into another book called The Scandal of Forgiveness.\r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, yes.\r\n\r\nPhilip: Because it\u2019s scandalous.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nPhilip: And it\u2019s also poisonous [to not forgive]. The funny lady, Anne Lamott, says, \u201cNot forgiving is like drinking rat poison and waiting for the rat to die.\u201d [Laughter]\r\n\r\nAnn: I thought that was good the first time I heard it. I remember that.\r\n\r\nPhilip: We\u2019re the ones who suffer [in unforgiveness]. \r\n\r\nI told you the story, the last time I was here, of my own family\u2014just three people: a mother and two sons\u2014my father had died when I was a baby. My mother and older brother didn\u2019t speak to each other for 52 years. Finally, just before she died, I got them on a three-way phone conversation. They never saw each other for 52 years. \r\n\r\nEach one of them\u2014I look at them\u2014it\u2019s like a little version of my mother was living inside of him, saying: \u201cDon\u2019t you dare! Don\u2019t you dare!\u201d And the same thing\u2014a little version of him was living inside of her. And they\u2019re fighting themselves, because no one\u2019s willing to say, \u201cI\u2019m sorry. I was wrong,\u201d or \u201cI didn\u2019t feel I was wrong, but I regret what happened. Can you forgive me?\u201d It can be that simple: \u201cCan you forgive me?\u201d And yet, so many people go through life with those unforgiven things just eating away inside them like rat poison.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes, I had to go on a journey with my own dad. You write in your book the term you coined, \u201cungrace.\u201d I was ungraceful; he didn\u2019t deserve it. I couldn't see, for decades: \u201cThis is poisoning me. This is locking me up.\u201d I sort of had this image of [me] locking him up, you know? \u201cHe can\u2019t have a relationship with me.\u201d\r\n\r\nHe was sort of repentant and wanting to step back into my life\u2014this is college years. I\u2019m playing college football; and he\u2019s in Miami as an airline pilot. Next thing I know, he\u2019s showing up at ball games because he\u2019s reading about me down in the Miami papers. My first response\u2014instead of being a grateful son [saying], \u201cThank you for\u2026\u201d\u2014I\u2019m like, \u201cWhat are you doing here? You\u2019ve never showed up anywhere in my life. Now, that I\u2019m somebody\u2026\u201d\r\n\r\nI had to go on this journey. It didn\u2019t take a couple of days or weeks, it took years; but one of the best decisions I ever made in my life was to set a prisoner free\u2014and I was the prisoner\u2014through forgiveness. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Very good.\r\n\r\nDave: It\u2019s what\u2019s so amazing about grace. You can read it in a book or talk about it, but when you experience it, it\u2019s a whole other deal. \r\n\r\nPhilip: It is. When I go around talking about forgiveness, inevitability, somebody says, \u201cWell, what about if the person doesn\u2019t repent or ask forgiveness?\u201d \r\n\r\nDave: Right.\r\n\r\nPhilip: We have a beautiful example of that in Jesus. He\u2019s being crucified, nailed to the cross, and it\u2019s interesting what he prays. He says\u2014He doesn\u2019t say, \u201cI forgive you\u201d\u2014He says, \u201cFather, forgive them because they don\u2019t know what they are doing.\u201d Paul was the same way when he faced people who really upset him, he would say [paraphrase of Romans 12:19], \u201cOkay, they deserve revenge, but \u2018Vengeance is Mine,\u2019 says God; I\u2019ll give it to God.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: That\u2019s a good way to implement that. I think it\u2019s practical when you just feel like, \u201cI can\u2019t say that, but I\u2019m going to give it to You, God.\u201d \r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: What about you? You talked about your brother\u2019s struggle with your mom. How did you forgive your mom?\r\n\r\nPhilip: I got to know her background. A lot of forgiveness is just putting yourself in their place. My mother did a lot of things wrong, but she got some bad cards in life. She had an unloving family\u2014very strict, very harsh; a lot of poverty. We heard these stories about people living through the Depression. She lived through the Depression, and it was tough. \r\n\r\nFinally, this person came along\u2014kind of a knight in shining armor. He was in the Navy in World War II; he was in the Philadelphia shipyards. And [he] went home and had lunch with a family\u2014church people invited the sailor home for lunch. She fell in love, and he really was the man of her dreams. He wanted to be a missionary like she did. They were ready to go to the mission field, and they [had] two children. I\u2019m one of them.\r\n\r\nAnd then, boom! One day, he\u2019s completely paralyzed. And then, he spends the next two and a half months living in an iron lung, unable to move.\r\n\r\nAnn: He had polio, didn\u2019t he?\r\n\r\nPhilip: He had polio, yes. And then, Christians got together and said, \u201cWell, that\u2019s no future. Let\u2019s pray that he would be healed.\u201d Well, he wasn\u2019t healed, and they took him out of the iron lung, and he died. \r\n\r\nImagine: she placed everything on him; she had never written a check; she had never driven a car; she didn\u2019t know how to live. And suddenly, he\u2019s gone! She\u2019s left with two kids\u2014two brats\u2014I\u2019m one of them, [Laughter] one and three years old. She made a lot of mistakes, but I think they were mistakes. She did a lot of things right as well. I learned to see that over the years. \r\n\r\nI had to go back to some people I had written about in the church I grew up in. I told you some stories. Well, I had to go to that pastor and say, \u201cDo you still believe all that? Why did you preach so much on hell?\u201d And then say, \u201cBut I just wish you had also shown me the other side. But I wanted, if I\u2019ve offended you in something I\u2019ve said, can we talk about that? I want to apologize for it.\u201d I went to four or five people.\r\n\r\nAnn: Whoa!! This is a big deal. \r\n\r\nPhilip: I call it \u201cThe Amends Tour,\u201d [Laughter] because it\u2019s easy for me to write something that can really damage somebody\u2019s reputation. Usually, I didn\u2019t use their names, but they knew who I was talking about. I did go through that process.\r\n\r\nDave: How did they ever respond?\r\n\r\nPhilip: In every case but one, they would say, \u201cYes, I have matured a lot over the years. I have softened. I wouldn\u2019t do it like that again. My beliefs haven\u2019t changed, but my attitudes and the way I present them have changed.\u201d One person was just still really angry. \u201cI\u2019m sorry. I apologize,\u201d He\u2019s no longer living, but he had to live with that. \r\n\r\nAnn: That\u2019s a good action step: \u201cIs there anyone whom we\u2019ve offended?\u201d\r\n\r\nPhilip: Jesus said [paraphrased], \u201cIf you go to the temple, and there\u2019s someone you haven\u2019t forgiven, leave your offering, and run back and get that person.\u201d [Laughter]\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes!\r\n\r\nShelby: You know, I love the way Philip Yancey is leading by example as a person who is admitting that he didn\u2019t always get it right. He\u2019s saying, \u201cWe all need grace, so let\u2019s not pretend that we don\u2019t need grace by never apologizing to other people and admitting when we\u2019re wrong.\u201d It takes a lot of character. I\u2019m really glad he was genuine with us today about that.\r\n\r\nI\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Philip Yancey on FamilyLife Today. Philip has written a book called What\u2019s So Amazing About Grace? If you wanted to read a little bit more about Philip\u2019s profound insight and exploration of the topic of grace, you can get a copy of his book, What\u2019s So Amazing About Grace? right now by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can find it in the show notes. Or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \r\n\r\nYou know, we\u2019re winding down here in the month of May, [with] only a few days left in this month. May is always an important month for us here at FamilyLife\u00ae, because as a donor-supported ministry, we rely on situations like this month to keep producing valuable programming. Right now, every gift that you contribute to the ministry of FamilyLife will be doubled dollar-for-dollar. And get this: our matching cap has reached $550,000. So, every gift given, up to $550,000, is going to be doubled. Your support can really make a huge, incredible difference this month.\r\n\r\nBeing a monthly donor to FamilyLife is really a partnership that will help you be on mission with us all year long. I\u2019d love for you to head over to FamilyLifeToday.com, click on the \u201cDonate Now\u201d button at the top of the page, and it will walk you through how to go about becoming a FamilyLife monthly partner. Or you can just check out the show notes at FamilyLifeToday.com.\r\n\r\nHow do we navigate cancel culture? How do we model grace and engage with differing viewpoints in our culture today? Philip Yancey is back with Dave and Ann Wilson to talk about just that tomorrow. We hope you\u2019ll join us. \r\n\r\nOn behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. \r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. 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});\";s:18:\"current_block_list\";a:17:{i:0;s:14:\"uagb\/container\";i:1;s:12:\"core\/heading\";i:2;s:9:\"core\/html\";i:3;s:10:\"core\/group\";i:6;s:21:\"uagb\/advanced-heading\";i:7;s:14:\"uagb\/separator\";i:8;s:14:\"uagb\/icon-list\";i:9;s:20:\"uagb\/icon-list-child\";i:10;s:11:\"core\/search\";i:13;s:18:\"core\/legacy-widget\";i:16;s:10:\"uagb\/image\";i:17;s:17:\"core\/social-links\";i:18;s:16:\"core\/social-link\";i:19;s:14:\"core\/paragraph\";i:20;s:30:\"meta-box\/fl-conditional-blocks\";i:21;s:12:\"uagb\/buttons\";i:22;s:18:\"uagb\/buttons-child\";}s:8:\"uag_flag\";b:1;s:11:\"uag_version\";i:1776708196;s:6:\"gfonts\";a:1:{s:7:\"Default\";a:2:{s:10:\"fontfamily\";s:7:\"Default\";s:12:\"fontvariants\";a:0:{}}}s:10:\"gfonts_url\";s:71:\"\/\/fonts.googleapis.com\/css?family=Default&subset=latin&display=fallback\";s:12:\"gfonts_files\";a:0:{}s:14:\"uag_faq_layout\";b:0;}"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/06\/image-scaled.jpg",1024,1024,true]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Making excuses not to forgive? Philip Yancey shows us how grace changes lives--and maybe even yours.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"\n<ul>\n<li>Connect with Philip Yancey and catch more of their thoughts at <a href=\"http:\/\/philipyancey.com\/\">philipyancey.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>...And grab Philip Yancey\u2019s book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/whats-so-amazing-about-grace-revised-and-updated\">What's So Amazing About Grace<\/a> in our shop.<\/li>\n<li>Intrigued by today\u2019s episode? Think deeper about forgiveness by listening to <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-blended-minute\/take-off-put-on-forgiveness-2\/\">Take Off, Put On: Forgiveness<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Want to hear more episodes by <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/philip-yancey\/\">Philip, listen here<\/a>!<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><strong>FamilyLife Today Links:\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/may-2024\/?cru_source=D0002405RB&cru_medium=RadioBanner&cru_premium=PRE21802&cru_campaign=May2024&utm_source=web&utm_medium=radiobanner&utm_campaign=may2024\">Double your gift this month<\/a> when you give to FamilyLife!<\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-05-28.pdf","transcript_content":"\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript\r\n\r\nReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.\r\n\r\nWhen You Can\u2019t Forgive Them\r\n\r\nGuest:Philip Yancey\r\n\r\nFrom the series:When You Can\u2019t Forgive Them (Day 2 of 3)\r\n\r\nAir date:May 28, 2024\r\n\r\nDave: Okay, before we get started today, I\u2019ve got a question for you\u2014not you, Ann [Laughter]\u2014our listener: \u201cWhere are you listening from?\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: And you know that we\u2019re from Detroit.\r\n\r\nDave: Motor City.\r\n\r\nAnn: Shelby\u2019s in the Philly area, and our FamilyLife Today headquarters are in Orlando.\r\n\r\nDave: So, we\u2019re coming to you guys from all over the country, but what about you? We would love to know if you are in one of those areas or where else you consider home.\r\n\r\nAnn: Text \u201cFLT\u201d plus where you\u2019re listening from to 80542 to let us know. Again, you\u2019re going to text \u201cFLT\u201d plus where you\u2019re listening from to 80542. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Probably, the most challenging thing Jesus said is: \u201cLove your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.\u201d \u201cWhat are you talking about?! They\u2019re our enemies! You don\u2019t pray! You don\u2019t love your enemies. Why would you do that?\u201d And Jesus said [paraphrased], \u201cWell, very clearly, that\u2019s the only way people will know what the Father\u2019s like.\u201d\r\n\r\nShelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.\r\n\r\nAnn: This is FamilyLife Today!\r\n\r\nDave: So, we\u2019re talking about a subject I just hate talking about\u2014[Laughter]\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014grace.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014a thing called grace. \r\n\r\nAnn: Whew! Getting to talk to Philip Yancey yesterday, I\u2019m still wiping tears from my eyes, because when he talks about grace\u2014when the Bible talks about grace\u2014and when Jesus demonstrates grace, it\u2019s so heavenly. It\u2019s so other worldly; it\u2019s so compelling. \r\n\r\nDave: Philip Yancey is back with us today. Yesterday, Philip, when you were\u2014right toward the end of our program\u2014you were talking about Jesus as the picture of grace. I want you to continue that. I just know this morning, before I left the house, I was in the New Testament, and I\u2019m reading\u2014again, just taking another look at Jesus. How many times have I done this? Thousands of times in my 30-plus years, almost 40 years, of being a Christian. Almost every time, I see something I hadn\u2019t seen, and it\u2019s grace! It\u2019s always a beautiful image of the heart of God.\r\n\r\nYou said, yesterday, Philip, \u201cIf you\u2019ve seen Me, you\u2019ve seen the Father.\u201d Jesus is revealing another aspect of the Father, which is grace. We\u2019re talking today about a book you wrote 25 years ago, and it\u2019s been revised: What\u2019s So Amazing About Grace?\r\n\r\nPhilip: Right.\r\n\r\nDave: Pick up from where you were, because you were talking about Jesus\u2014looking at Jesus\u2014and maybe, even Henri Nouwen\u2019s quote.\r\n\r\nPhilip: That\u2019s right, sure. [Laughter] It was actually a conversation I had with Henri Nouwen\u2014I spent a day with him one time up at his place in Canada, where he was spending his life, dealing with people who were deeply mentally disabled. \r\n\r\nAnn: Tell our audience: who is that?\r\n\r\nPhilip: He is a priest, who is also a psychotherapist, a PhD. He taught at Yale; he taught at Harvard. Finally, he decided, \u201cI\u2019ve had enough of these intellectuals. I\u2019m going to some people who really have needs.\u201d He went to this place and took care of a young man named Adam, who had an IQ of maybe 20 or 25. He spent the last, I think, 15 years of his life caring for Adam.\r\n\r\nWe were talking about that story that exemplifies Jesus, where, in John 4, He visits a woman in a Samaritan village. The Samaritans were the heretics to the Jews, so his disciples said [in a complaining voice]: \u201cWhy would you go there?!\u201d He said, \u201cOh, God\u2019s got something for Me there.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: I like Philip\u2019s contrary voice. [Laughter] Don\u2019t you like it? Yes, I like it.\r\n\r\nPhilip: He went and saw a woman who was picking up water from a well in the middle of the afternoon. That is not a time in the desert when you go out to get water; you go out in the cool of the morning. Why was she there in the afternoon? Well, we\u2019re not really told, but it could be because she was the object of town gossip. She had had five husbands, and even now, she was living with a man who wasn\u2019t her husband. They got into a conversation about water. Jesus said [paraphrased], \u201cI think you\u2019re drinking the wrong water. [Laughter] You need some water that doesn\u2019t run dry.\u201d \r\n\r\nHenri told me a story: back in the days, when the AIDS epidemic was just starting, it was actually called the Gay Men\u2019s Syndrome, because almost all the cases were in San Francisco among gay men. The church was not really treating gay people and people with AIDS very well in those days. There was a lot of fear, and we were kind of getting away from them as far as possible. Henri thought, \u201cWell, that\u2019s not right.\u201d He went to see them. There was a clinic there. He described to me the condition they were in; they had sores all over their body and inside their mouths. There was no cure at all; they were almost 100 percent dying. \r\n\r\nHe said he would just go from bedside to bedside and say, \u201cHello. I\u2019m a clergy. What we do is listen to people\u2019s stories. Would you like to tell your story? If you don\u2019t, I\u2019ll just go to the next bed.\u201d He said some people said [shouting gruffly], \u201cClergy?! Get out of here! I don\u2019t want to have anything to do with the church, the way they treated me.\u201d \u201cFine. I\u2019ll go to the next bed. I will pray for you, though.\u201d\r\n\r\nBut other people did tell [him] their stories. He said, \u201cPhilip, you couldn\u2019t believe these stories. When I went there, I thought, \u2018What about these immoral people? What about these loose-living people?\u2019 When I came back, I thought, \u2018What about these thirsty people? They\u2019re thirsty for love, and they\u2019re not finding it. Where can they find it?\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nWe talked about how similar that was to the passage in John 4: this woman hadn\u2019t found it either. She was still looking. Jesus\u2014it\u2019s the only place in the Gospels where He voluntarily identified Himself, who He was, to somebody who didn\u2019t know. He said, \u201cDo you know who I am? I am the Messiah.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: And it\u2019s a woman! It\u2019s a woman.\r\n\r\nPhilip: It\u2019s a woman, a heretic woman.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014a heretic woman, yes.\r\n\r\nPhilip: Actually, if you look back on it, she was probably His first missionary; His first foreign missionary. [Laughter] He [made] a good choice, because she went back and it says [she] converted the entire town; this woman because they could see the changes in her. She used to be someone that you gossiped about and tell your children, \u201cDon\u2019t ever be like her!\u201d And now, suddenly, \u201cYou want what she\u2019s got,\u201d because it transformed her. I think that\u2019s a beautiful model of what we should look like to the rest of the world.\r\n\r\nDave: You\u2019ve got to tell this story\u2014and I know you told it the last time you were here\u2014[of] when you were in that Bible study (that prayer group) in college, and you realized who you are, that\u2019s a grace story. I\u2019d love our audience to hear that again, because I\u2019m guessing some have never heard. I know it\u2019s in your memoir\u2014\r\n\r\nPhilip: \u2014right, right\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014Where the Light Fell.\r\n\r\nPhilip: Right.\r\n\r\nDave: Just mention that, because it\u2019s such a beautiful story of you realizing who you were and what you needed.\r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes, right. I mentioned that I went to this little church that had the truth. There were about 100 of us, and we were superior to everybody. [Laughter] \r\n\r\nDave: I was in that church, too! [Laughter]\r\n\r\nPhilip: We were also racists and all these other things. And then, I realized that church was wrong about race, about a lot of things they taught me. So, I swung the other way as far as I could go and started judging them. You know, \u201cthese ignorant fundamentalists. I don\u2019t want anything to do with them.\u201d \r\n\r\nI ended up in a Bible college campus. That same judgmental attitude followed me there. We had to have a Christian service. The Christian service I chose was to go to a university campus and, supposedly, witness. Instead, I would usually sit in the student center and watch basketball. [Laughter] The guys with me would witness, then I\u2019d come back, and we\u2019d write these stories about all the people we talked to. Mine were very loosely told, shall we say. \r\n\r\nAnd we had to have a prayer meeting each week. We did, and I never prayed. There were four of us. The three guys would take turns praying, and then, they would pause about ten seconds. I never prayed. And they would say, \u201cThanks, guys! See you next week.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnd then, one time, I just\u2014without thinking about it at all, I just\u2014started praying. I said, \u201cGod!\u201d Everything got very tense. I said, \u201cAs You know, I don\u2019t care if all ten thousand people at the university go to hell.\u201d You could cut that with a knife at a Bible college prayer meeting. \"In fact, I don\u2019t even care if I go to hell.\u201d \r\n\r\nI had a vision. It was a life-changing vision, the only one like that or anything close to that I\u2019ve had. We had just been studying the Good Samaritan. I started talking about the parable of the Good Samaritan: \u201cI know we\u2019re supposed to be like the Good Samaritan, reaching down to this wretch in a ditch here, and helping them.\u201d And then, suddenly, as I was talking, that vision changed, and I saw the person in the ditch was me. \r\n\r\nHere I thought I was smarter, more sophisticated than these fundamentalist types; and I realized I was the neediest one of all. Every time Jesus\u2014because the Good Samaritan took on the face of Jesus\u2014every time the Good Samaritan reached out to help me, I would spit in His face. Three times it happened; three times. And then, I didn\u2019t know what to do, so I just got up and left the room. \r\n\r\nThat changed my life. Here, I\u2019ve made my career as a Christian writer, and it all goes back to that moment. It was a moment of grace, where I realized I was the needy one. Unless you come to some point of realizing that\u2014and a lot of people don\u2019t; it\u2019s like, \u201cI can get along fine without You, God.\u201d They\u2019re the losers; they\u2019re the losers. I realized that for the first time.\r\n\r\nDave: Hearing you say that again, it\u2019s such a beautiful story, because we resist being the one in the ditch. We don\u2019t want to be that one; we want to be anything but that. Grace does a work until you admit that\u2014is that true? Until you\u2019re able to say, \u201cI need it\u201d?\r\n\r\nPhilip: In some way, yes. Look at the rich young ruler, and the story there. Jesus would always find: \u201cWhat is that one need?\u201d [Laughter] \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes, yes.\r\n\r\nPhilip: And He pretty well exposed him; his need was a need to be rich! \u201cI\u2019d rather be rich than to be loved by God.\u201d That was the choice, because Jesus said [paraphrased], \u201cHere, do these things.\u201d \u201cOh, I\u2019ve already done all those.\u201d \u201cOh, okay. Give away all your money.\u201d \u201cUh, talk to You later. I\u2019m out of here.\u201d [Laughter] \r\n\r\nGod will often do this\u2014not like God has to devastate us\u2014but until we understand it\u2019s not about how much better we are than other people, or how much like God we are even; it\u2019s how open we are to receiving God\u2019s free gift. Jesus has already done the work. That\u2019s the point of the gospel: Jesus has done it. So, you don\u2019t have to do it; you just have to follow Jesus in the way that He set out.\r\n\r\nAnn: When you say that Jesus saw grace everywhere He went, and then, He communicated that through His parables, what do you mean by that? \"He saw it everywhere He went.\u201d\r\n\r\nPhilip: Part of it, I think, was the common grace that spoke to me, too, because when Jesus is telling a story, what does He use? He uses wild flowers. He says\u2014somebody says something about King Solomon [paraphrasing]: \u201cNow, there was a king. Man, he had 800 wives\u2026\u201d Jesus says, \u201cYou know what? See that lily over there? It\u2019s more beautiful than Solomon ever was,\u201d you know? There\u2019s kind of that common grace. \r\n\r\nAnd then, even in people who were the outcasts\u2014literally, outcasts\u2014those with leprosy, the disease I know a lot about because I wrote three books with Dr. Paul Brand, who was a leprosy specialist in India. Those are the most abused people on the entire planet. There is nobody lower than somebody of\u2014what used to be called the untouchable caste\u2014now Dalits in India, who has leprosy. They\u2019re kicked out of their homes; their kicked out of their villages\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014still?\r\n\r\nPhilip: \u2014still, yes. Many of them live in a pile of rocks somewhere. Somebody will take a bucket of food over every few days. Because people are so afraid of leprosy\u2014which is not that contagious; it\u2019s not that dangerous\u2014but the fear persists. It was really strong in Jesus\u2019 day. Jesus would touch a person with leprosy. Jesus dispensed grace to the outcasts. \r\n\r\nProbably, the most challenging thing He said, for us, as Americans is: \u201cLove your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.\u201d I mentioned that one time. I was writing a book on prayer. I stood up in the pulpit, and I said, \u201cI\u2019ve never done that. I\u2019ve never prayed for Russia. What would happen if every church in the United States adopted a terrorist\u2014and these people who are trying to blow us up in Iraq and Afghanistan\u2014and just prayed for them?\u201d \r\n\r\nThere was a guy I didn\u2019t know (he drove up from Colorado Springs) who was a chaplain and the rank of Colonel. That got to him. So, he started a website called atfp.org (Adopt a Terrorist for Prayer.org). [Laughter]\r\n\r\nDave: Wow!\r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, my!!\r\n\r\nDave: Wow.\r\n\r\nPhilip: You can go\u2014you still can; you can go\u2014on that site, and you can see a little biography and a picture of a terrorist; all the terrible things he\u2019s done. You have to agree to pray for them on a regular basis.\r\n\r\nWell, his commanding officer, the General, got a hold of this, called him [screaming], \u201cWhat the\u2026?! What are you doing here?!!! [Laughter] I\u2019m trying to teach these guys to kill! And you\u2019re trying to teach them to love and pray?!!\u201d \r\n\r\nActually, I think that was the disciples\u2019 response, too, when Jesus said that: \u201cWhat are you talking about?!! They\u2019re our enemies! You don\u2019t pray! You don\u2019t love your enemies. Why would you do that?\u201d Jesus said [paraphrased], \u201cWell, very clearly, that\u2019s the only way people will know what the Father\u2019s like, because God causes the rain to fall and the sun to shine on the evil and the good, alike. That\u2019s the kind of God you have.\u201d Unless you can show that to the rest of the world, by doing something as crazy as loving your enemies, they\u2019ll miss that message of grace.\r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, I\u2019m just telling you: that is so convicting. I\u2019m just thinking\u2014the person that you just struggle with or\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014it could be a family member.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014it could be your spouse. I mean, that is. . .  \u201cLove them. Pray for them. Do good to those who hurt you.\u201d That is so other worldly.\r\n\r\nDave: Philip, talk about forgiveness. When you talk about loving your enemies or loving your family, but you\u2019ve got hurt, and wounds, and bitterness\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014that are terrible.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014that maybe they have a history or story\u2014or maybe, it\u2019s decades. God calls us to forgive just as we\u2019ve been forgiven; that\u2019s grace.\r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes, He does. You\u2019re absolutely right. I have maybe five chapters in this book, What\u2019s So Amazing About Grace? about forgiveness. The publisher took those and some other material into another book called The Scandal of Forgiveness.\r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, yes.\r\n\r\nPhilip: Because it\u2019s scandalous.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nPhilip: And it\u2019s also poisonous [to not forgive]. The funny lady, Anne Lamott, says, \u201cNot forgiving is like drinking rat poison and waiting for the rat to die.\u201d [Laughter]\r\n\r\nAnn: I thought that was good the first time I heard it. I remember that.\r\n\r\nPhilip: We\u2019re the ones who suffer [in unforgiveness]. \r\n\r\nI told you the story, the last time I was here, of my own family\u2014just three people: a mother and two sons\u2014my father had died when I was a baby. My mother and older brother didn\u2019t speak to each other for 52 years. Finally, just before she died, I got them on a three-way phone conversation. They never saw each other for 52 years. \r\n\r\nEach one of them\u2014I look at them\u2014it\u2019s like a little version of my mother was living inside of him, saying: \u201cDon\u2019t you dare! Don\u2019t you dare!\u201d And the same thing\u2014a little version of him was living inside of her. And they\u2019re fighting themselves, because no one\u2019s willing to say, \u201cI\u2019m sorry. I was wrong,\u201d or \u201cI didn\u2019t feel I was wrong, but I regret what happened. Can you forgive me?\u201d It can be that simple: \u201cCan you forgive me?\u201d And yet, so many people go through life with those unforgiven things just eating away inside them like rat poison.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes, I had to go on a journey with my own dad. You write in your book the term you coined, \u201cungrace.\u201d I was ungraceful; he didn\u2019t deserve it. I couldn't see, for decades: \u201cThis is poisoning me. This is locking me up.\u201d I sort of had this image of [me] locking him up, you know? \u201cHe can\u2019t have a relationship with me.\u201d\r\n\r\nHe was sort of repentant and wanting to step back into my life\u2014this is college years. I\u2019m playing college football; and he\u2019s in Miami as an airline pilot. Next thing I know, he\u2019s showing up at ball games because he\u2019s reading about me down in the Miami papers. My first response\u2014instead of being a grateful son [saying], \u201cThank you for\u2026\u201d\u2014I\u2019m like, \u201cWhat are you doing here? You\u2019ve never showed up anywhere in my life. Now, that I\u2019m somebody\u2026\u201d\r\n\r\nI had to go on this journey. It didn\u2019t take a couple of days or weeks, it took years; but one of the best decisions I ever made in my life was to set a prisoner free\u2014and I was the prisoner\u2014through forgiveness. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Very good.\r\n\r\nDave: It\u2019s what\u2019s so amazing about grace. You can read it in a book or talk about it, but when you experience it, it\u2019s a whole other deal. \r\n\r\nPhilip: It is. When I go around talking about forgiveness, inevitability, somebody says, \u201cWell, what about if the person doesn\u2019t repent or ask forgiveness?\u201d \r\n\r\nDave: Right.\r\n\r\nPhilip: We have a beautiful example of that in Jesus. He\u2019s being crucified, nailed to the cross, and it\u2019s interesting what he prays. He says\u2014He doesn\u2019t say, \u201cI forgive you\u201d\u2014He says, \u201cFather, forgive them because they don\u2019t know what they are doing.\u201d Paul was the same way when he faced people who really upset him, he would say [paraphrase of Romans 12:19], \u201cOkay, they deserve revenge, but \u2018Vengeance is Mine,\u2019 says God; I\u2019ll give it to God.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: That\u2019s a good way to implement that. I think it\u2019s practical when you just feel like, \u201cI can\u2019t say that, but I\u2019m going to give it to You, God.\u201d \r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: What about you? You talked about your brother\u2019s struggle with your mom. How did you forgive your mom?\r\n\r\nPhilip: I got to know her background. A lot of forgiveness is just putting yourself in their place. My mother did a lot of things wrong, but she got some bad cards in life. She had an unloving family\u2014very strict, very harsh; a lot of poverty. We heard these stories about people living through the Depression. She lived through the Depression, and it was tough. \r\n\r\nFinally, this person came along\u2014kind of a knight in shining armor. He was in the Navy in World War II; he was in the Philadelphia shipyards. And [he] went home and had lunch with a family\u2014church people invited the sailor home for lunch. She fell in love, and he really was the man of her dreams. He wanted to be a missionary like she did. They were ready to go to the mission field, and they [had] two children. I\u2019m one of them.\r\n\r\nAnd then, boom! One day, he\u2019s completely paralyzed. And then, he spends the next two and a half months living in an iron lung, unable to move.\r\n\r\nAnn: He had polio, didn\u2019t he?\r\n\r\nPhilip: He had polio, yes. And then, Christians got together and said, \u201cWell, that\u2019s no future. Let\u2019s pray that he would be healed.\u201d Well, he wasn\u2019t healed, and they took him out of the iron lung, and he died. \r\n\r\nImagine: she placed everything on him; she had never written a check; she had never driven a car; she didn\u2019t know how to live. And suddenly, he\u2019s gone! She\u2019s left with two kids\u2014two brats\u2014I\u2019m one of them, [Laughter] one and three years old. She made a lot of mistakes, but I think they were mistakes. She did a lot of things right as well. I learned to see that over the years. \r\n\r\nI had to go back to some people I had written about in the church I grew up in. I told you some stories. Well, I had to go to that pastor and say, \u201cDo you still believe all that? Why did you preach so much on hell?\u201d And then say, \u201cBut I just wish you had also shown me the other side. But I wanted, if I\u2019ve offended you in something I\u2019ve said, can we talk about that? I want to apologize for it.\u201d I went to four or five people.\r\n\r\nAnn: Whoa!! This is a big deal. \r\n\r\nPhilip: I call it \u201cThe Amends Tour,\u201d [Laughter] because it\u2019s easy for me to write something that can really damage somebody\u2019s reputation. Usually, I didn\u2019t use their names, but they knew who I was talking about. I did go through that process.\r\n\r\nDave: How did they ever respond?\r\n\r\nPhilip: In every case but one, they would say, \u201cYes, I have matured a lot over the years. I have softened. I wouldn\u2019t do it like that again. My beliefs haven\u2019t changed, but my attitudes and the way I present them have changed.\u201d One person was just still really angry. \u201cI\u2019m sorry. I apologize,\u201d He\u2019s no longer living, but he had to live with that. \r\n\r\nAnn: That\u2019s a good action step: \u201cIs there anyone whom we\u2019ve offended?\u201d\r\n\r\nPhilip: Jesus said [paraphrased], \u201cIf you go to the temple, and there\u2019s someone you haven\u2019t forgiven, leave your offering, and run back and get that person.\u201d [Laughter]\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes!\r\n\r\nShelby: You know, I love the way Philip Yancey is leading by example as a person who is admitting that he didn\u2019t always get it right. He\u2019s saying, \u201cWe all need grace, so let\u2019s not pretend that we don\u2019t need grace by never apologizing to other people and admitting when we\u2019re wrong.\u201d It takes a lot of character. I\u2019m really glad he was genuine with us today about that.\r\n\r\nI\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Philip Yancey on FamilyLife Today. Philip has written a book called What\u2019s So Amazing About Grace? If you wanted to read a little bit more about Philip\u2019s profound insight and exploration of the topic of grace, you can get a copy of his book, What\u2019s So Amazing About Grace? right now by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can find it in the show notes. Or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \r\n\r\nYou know, we\u2019re winding down here in the month of May, [with] only a few days left in this month. May is always an important month for us here at FamilyLife\u00ae, because as a donor-supported ministry, we rely on situations like this month to keep producing valuable programming. Right now, every gift that you contribute to the ministry of FamilyLife will be doubled dollar-for-dollar. And get this: our matching cap has reached $550,000. So, every gift given, up to $550,000, is going to be doubled. Your support can really make a huge, incredible difference this month.\r\n\r\nBeing a monthly donor to FamilyLife is really a partnership that will help you be on mission with us all year long. I\u2019d love for you to head over to FamilyLifeToday.com, click on the \u201cDonate Now\u201d button at the top of the page, and it will walk you through how to go about becoming a FamilyLife monthly partner. Or you can just check out the show notes at FamilyLifeToday.com.\r\n\r\nHow do we navigate cancel culture? How do we model grace and engage with differing viewpoints in our culture today? Philip Yancey is back with Dave and Ann Wilson to talk about just that tomorrow. We hope you\u2019ll join us. \r\n\r\nOn behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. \r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. 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