{"id":307903,"date":"2023-10-31T09:15:00","date_gmt":"2023-10-31T13:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/powerful-vices-and-your-way-out-jonathan-pokluda-2\/"},"modified":"2025-01-08T16:16:44","modified_gmt":"2025-01-08T21:16:44","slug":"powerful-vices-and-your-way-out-jonathan-pokluda-2","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/powerful-vices-and-your-way-out-jonathan-pokluda-2\/","title":{"rendered":"Powerful Vices&#8211;and Your Way Out: Jonathan Pokluda"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>The vise-grip of lust or critical thoughts can feel insurmountable. But from personal battles, author Jonathan Pokluda has come to a tangible escape hatch. If you&#8217;re wondering how to break a bad habit at last, don&#8217;t miss this thoughtful wisdom.<br \/>\n<em fetchpriority=\"high\"><br \/>\nEvery human being that has ever lived, with one exception, has done lots of things they didn\u2019t want to do. You see it in parenting so clearly\u2014you know, the struggle is real\u2014it\u2019s like, \u201cMan, why do that?\u201d &#8212; Jonathan Pokluda<\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>The vise-grip of lust or critical thoughts can feel insurmountable. But from personal battles, author Jonathan Pokluda has come to a tangible escape hatch.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2023-10-31.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:11","filesize":"37.32M","filesize_raw":"39136481","date_recorded":"2023-10-31 09:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2840,2846,2873],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[8695],"cwp_profile":[9594],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307903","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-addiction","category-depression","category-mental-and-emotional-issues","podcast_series-why-do-i-do-what-i-dont-want-to-do-jonathan-pokluda","cwp_profile-jp-pokluda","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307903\/powerful-vices-and-your-way-out-jonathan-pokluda-2","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307903\/powerful-vices-and-your-way-out-jonathan-pokluda-2","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"xtfYEbWfBF\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/powerful-vices-and-your-way-out-jonathan-pokluda-2\/\">Powerful Vices&#8211;and Your Way Out: Jonathan Pokluda<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/powerful-vices-and-your-way-out-jonathan-pokluda-2\/embed\/#?secret=xtfYEbWfBF\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Powerful Vices&#8211;and Your Way Out: Jonathan Pokluda&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"xtfYEbWfBF\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-10-31.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2023-10-31.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Okay, I\u2019ve never done this on <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>I\u2019ve done it as a preacher in a sermon; I\u2019ve done it at a marriage conference, <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>,<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>from the stage; but I\u2019ve never done it in the studio. It may never work, but we\u2019re going to try this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, great!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Shelby: <\/strong>Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> By the way, we\u2019ve got Jonathan Pokluda with us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> We\u2019re calling him JP because those are his initials.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> She\u2019s nervous right now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Are you nervous?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m nervous.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> What are we doing?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m totally nervous!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I know, there\u2019s a thin line between genius and about to get crazy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Insanity!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> You know, Dave walks that thin line.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I like that line; I really do! I should grab my guitar and sing something about it, but I\u2019m not going to.<\/p>\n<p>I call it the Ten Commandments Test. Have you ever done this?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> No.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Everybody stand up. I\u2019m going to have to stay seated, because I have to be on the mic.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You guys stand up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, we\u2019re actually standing up?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Literally, standing up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> We\u2019re not going to be standing up long, I have a feeling. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019re standing up. I\u2019m going to start with commandment number one of the Ten Commandments. When you\u2019ve broken a commandment, you sit; if you haven\u2019t broken this one, you stay standing. Exodus 20: \u201cAnd God spoke all these words, saying, \u2018I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.\u2019\u201d Here\u2019s number one: \u201cYou shall have no other gods before me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I\u2019ll have to sit.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> JP went down; Ann went down. Is anybody standing?! I\u2019ve pastored 30 years; about every couple of years, I would do it again.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Sometimes, it was for fun; but often, I was teaching about something I wanted to illustrate. <em>Most <\/em>of the room is still standing after commandment number one.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes, which is\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> And you know, as a pastor,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014a misunderstanding;\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014you\u2019re sitting there,\u2014I knew all of you guys would go down, because <em>you<\/em> understand commandment number one.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> As we talk about your book today, <em>Why Do I Do What I Don\u2019t Want to Do?<\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014they\u2019re thinking: \u201cOh, I\u2019ve never worshiped Satan,\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014or\u00a0 \u201cI\u2019ve never worshiped Ba\u2019al,\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014or, you know, \u201c\u2026sacrificed to some idol.\u201d Man, every pair of ears, right now, out there has had another god before God.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> What\u2019s that mean?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Amazon Prime! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014to name one!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> To name one.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Shoes, watches,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> <em>Anything <\/em>that comes before God.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014food.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014food is a big one.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave and Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> When I do it at the FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>, we do a session on Saturday morning, where we\u2019re trying to help people understand: \u201cWithout Jesus, you have no hope for your life or your marriage; and you are a sinner.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Often, people look up at you, like, \u201cWell, the people sitting beside me\u2014especially my wife!\u2014she\u2019s a sinner, but I\u2019m not.\u201d When you do this, you\u2019re hoping for them to say, \u201cWoah!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> It levels the playing field.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> But the fact that people are still up at number six or seven is what you just said: \u201cThey <em>don\u2019t <\/em>really understand.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> As you wrote this book about\u2014the subtitle: <em>Replace Deadly Vices with Life-Giving Virtues\u2014<\/em>we have to <em>at least <\/em>admit, \u201cWe <em>do<\/em> what we don\u2019t want to do,\u201d right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019ve got to start there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Every human being that has ever lived, with one exception, has done lots of things they didn\u2019t want to do. You see it in parenting so clearly\u2014you know, the struggle is real\u2014it\u2019s like, \u201cMan, why do that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, it\u2019s interesting, as we walked through the book, we talked a little bit yesterday about <em>ancient<\/em> vices.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> And then you\u2019ve got modern\u2014you call them modern\u2014wars. We only hit <em>one<\/em>; you have <em>ten<\/em>! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I know; I know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> We had a whole 30 minutes, and we got <em>one. <\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> One down.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> So we won\u2019t get all ten; and I would just say, \u201cGet the book! It\u2019s really good.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Let\u2019s talk about one that really affects all of us\u2014butt affects our marriages <em>big<\/em> time\u2014<em>lust<\/em>. And the virtue is\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014self-control.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I became a Christian in my early 20\u2019s. There were lots of things that people had warned me: \u201cHey, this will grip you.\u201d So many of those things I could pick up and set down; it wasn\u2019t like, \u201cOh, man! I need to do that again. I can\u2019t wait to!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Prior to marriage, I thought, very, very naively:\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I know what you\u2019re going to say! We all <em>think<\/em> it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cI\u2019ll struggle with this, at least, until I\u2019m married,\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014which is the biggest, most laughable <em>joke<\/em> in the history of history; because all marriage does is: it takes a giant magnifying glass and puts it on your struggles in singleness. I always say, \u201cI\u2019ve never met somebody with marriage problems. They all have single-people problems that they brought into their marriage.\u201d That was certainly true with me when it came to lust and pornography.<\/p>\n<p>The problem with sin is, when you feed something, it grows; so this is the lie of \u201c\u2026one last time.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> We think: \u201cOh, I\u2019m going to look at that one last time,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m going to give in to that one last time.\u201d What you don\u2019t realize is: you fed that thing one last time; so <em>next<\/em> time, it\u2019s going to be bigger and stronger than the last time. The next time is actually more <em>difficult<\/em> than the last time.\u201d Our <em>best<\/em> move is to really think, \u201cHey, my last time is behind me; so what does it look like for me to put these things in place so that I actually <em>fight <\/em>this?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m blown away by how many men and women, after a message on lust or whatever we\u2019re talking about, will come up\u2014I\u2019ll share some of my story\u2014they\u2019ll come up and say: \u201cMan, I\u2019m really struggling with lust,\u201d or \u201cI\u2019m really struggling with porn.\u201d I\u2019ll say, \u201cHow do you access porn?\u201d They\u2019ll say, \u201cMy phone.\u201d And I\u2019ll say, \u201cWell, where is your phone?\u201d They\u2019ll say, \u201cWell, it\u2019s in my pocket.\u201d I say, \u201cOh, I thought you said you were struggling.\u201d They say, \u201cI am!\u201d I say, \u201cNo, you\u2019re not; you\u2019re carrying it around with you everywhere you go. If this is the thing that you want to <em>win!<\/em>...<em>\u201d <\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n<p>If somebody says, \u201cYou\u2019re legalistic,\u201d\u2014I say, \u201cLet\u2019s turn to Matthew 5; because Jesus says, \u201cIf your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off,\u201d\u2014I think the point of his sermon\/his preaching there is: \u201cDo what it takes; make it difficult on yourself.\u201d People will say, \u201cWell, it won\u2019t help.\u201d Well, at least, it will make it <em>harder<\/em> for you to just give into it than if you carried it around with you in your pocket everywhere you go.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s where you start, with self-control? Because you\u2019re sitting here with an iPad and a phone beside you. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s true; it\u2019s true, and somebody would say, \u201cWhat about you?\u201d And I would say, \u201cThere was a time when I <em>couldn\u2019t.<\/em>\u201d So what does that look like? I almost <em>never <\/em>travel alone. When I go into that hotel room by myself, I don\u2019t cut on the TV. If a hotel\u2014and they\u2019ve kind of moved away from this, praise God\u2014but if they have adult streaming, I say, \u201cHey, can you cut that off?\u201d Sometimes, it\u2019s the awkward conversation in the lobby: \u201cOh, Mr. Pokluda, are you traveling with children?\u201d \u201cNope, just me! Just a guy who wants to avoid all temptation as much as possible.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, I\u2019m a little older\u2014but I traveled with the Lions, and I remember one time, I called down to the front desk, and I did that, JP\u2014I said, \u201cHey, can you turn off the adult channels in my room?\u201d And the lady at the front desk said, \u201c<em>Why?\u201d <\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I said, \u201cI don\u2019t want to watch them.\u201d She said, \u201cWell, don\u2019t watch them.\u201d I said, \u201cI <em>can\u2019t just not <\/em>watch them<em>! Please <\/em>turn them off!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes, it\u2019s demonic.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> It is demonic.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019ve shared that here publicly, and I\u2019m sure in your own church. A lot of pastors would never say this out loud, that that\u2019s a struggle. Why do you do that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> We could get to the perception management chapter.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I\u2019ve got a story, and I\u2019ll tell this as briefly as I can. A seminary wanted me to speak on how to reach the next generation. One time, prior to giving a sermon, I was talking about how we need to be authentic\u2014which is the virtue to perception management\u2014is authenticity. I talked about how, one time, I was going to preach; but the day before, I was on Instagram, and I clicked on a hashtag. It was innocent, but the next one wasn\u2019t; I intentionally clicked on a hashtag, hoping to see something lustful.<\/p>\n<p>Before I preached the sermon\u2014that had nothing to do with lust\u2014I just confessed that to the congregation. I said, \u201cGuys, this was yesterday; and shame is just beating me up today. I need to tell you this; and I\u2019m <em>so sorry<\/em>, because I\u2019m going to tell you <em>not<\/em> to do the very thing that I did at some point. I didn\u2019t give in to it; I didn\u2019t act further on it\u2014the Holy Spirit, in His kindness, awoke me to: \u2018Hey, you need to flee now,\u2019 and I did\u2014but I had intentionally looked at something that I would say all of you should never look at. I\u2019m truly sorry. Will you forgive me?\u201d I prayed, then I preached a sermon that had nothing to do with that. That night, I had the <em>longest<\/em> line of people wanting to talk to me than any other time in the history of speaking.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wow!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I was there\u2014it was an evening message\u2014but I was there until 11 pm, when security made us leave\u201411pm, talking to people, who said, \u201cI can\u2019t believe you said that! Me, too; I\u2019m struggling so much.\u201d Nothing to do with the sermon I had just given, right? [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>At that seminary, that invited me to speak on reaching the next generation, I shared that story. The feedback afterwards\u2014I\u2019ll never forget, because I began to weep as I read it\u2014it said: \u201cYou\u2019re a person in ministry. You need to present to be holy. You need to give the perception that you are holy. You cannot use words like that in a mixed-gender audience.\u201d That was some of the feedback I got; and I just began to weep, because I thought, \u201cYou\u2019ll <em>never<\/em> reach the next generation.\u201d They <em>do not <\/em>want someone who presents to walk a foot above the earth and never struggles. They need to know <em>how <\/em>you\u2019ve struggled. Don\u2019t manufacture things\u2014don\u2019t say things for shock value\u2014but be <em>honest<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> You know, as I was driving here with my son this morning, we were talking about something. I said, \u201cHey, your dad is always going to be honest with you. When you want to know the truth, find me or your mom, and we will tell you the truth. We\u2019ll tell you things that some parents will say you\u2019re not ready to hear; but I want you to hear it from us rather than from people who are trying to figure it out themselves. I\u2019ve made a lot of mistakes; and if you ask me a question, I\u2019m always going to tell you the truth.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Here\u2019s a question I was asked last weekend, which I\u2019d never been asked\u2014it\u2019s not that unique\u2014but I thought, \u201cHuh?\u201d Do you know what question I\u2019m going to say?\u2014you were sitting there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I have no idea.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Ann and I spoke at a Fellowship of Chrisitan Athletes Football Coaches\u2019 Marriage Retreat in Branson, Missouri.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> It was pretty cool, because FCA now has a football division. I was a football coach, and it was like <em>our people<\/em>. The artist they brought in to lead worship, Michael O\u2019Brian, used to be the lead singer of New Song.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> The guy is <em>phenomenal.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> And he sits at our table, and he says, \u201cI listen to you guys on <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>My wife\u2026\u201d\u2014blah, blah, blah. And he says, \u201cI\u2019ve got to ask you something,\u201d because we talked about struggles in our marriage. I talked about\u2014and we put it in our book, <em>Vertical Marriage<\/em>\u2014my porn struggle, back 40 years ago. He said, \u201cLet me ask you this: when is it needed that somebody steps into a person\u2019s life, especially a minister\u2019s life?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> He said, \u201cIt\u2019s good that you\u2019re honest, and you share your struggle.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> But when is it the time that the elders or somebody should step in, and say, \u201cOkay, this is not okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cYou need to apply church discipline.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cYou\u2019re doing it once every two weeks now,\u201d or \u201cYou\u2019re doing it once a month.\u201d What is the number that says, \u201cOkay, it\u2019s really cool you\u2019re vulnerable and authentic,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s the counterpart to entitlement\u2014but when is it that we probably need to get you help?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes, yes. That is a great question! I\u2019m glad he asked.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, I didn\u2019t answer it very well; so I want <em>you<\/em> to answer it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Well, here\u2019s the deal: I think, when we talk about these things\u2014and there\u2019s what you say, and then there\u2019s what people <em>hear<\/em>, and then the gaps that they fill in\u2014somebody might be out there, thinking, \u201cOh, man! This guy is still struggling with porn, and he\u2019s preaching every week,\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014you know, this guy is like, \u201cNo!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> If I\u2019m <em>regularly<\/em> looking at pornography, I think I am disqualified for, at least, a season. There needs to be a <em>long<\/em> season where I\u2019m getting help; I\u2019m in recovery; I\u2019m being ministered to; I\u2019m not doing the ministering. If someone\u2019s listening, in ministry, I think that\u2019s true; and I\u2019ll say, \u201cConsider all things. Consider what you\u2019re doing\/where you are.\u201d The bottom line is: \u201cIf this is a recurring deal, where you\u2019re giving in to it, you\u2019re losing the battle. <em>Get help<\/em>!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I\u2019m trying to say; there\u2019s no shortage of recovery ministries, church programs, and pastors out there. In every city in America, there is someone there who is going to want to come alongside you and help you. <em>Get help!<\/em><\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s a difference between: \u201cMan, this is not recurring. I\u2019m fighting lust; and man, I made a mistake yesterday; I went too far.\u201d Now, I\u2019m playing the game of: \u201cHow fast can I confess this? How quickly can I bring it into the light?\u201d I\u2019m not trying to hide it from someone; I want <em>everyone<\/em> to know; I\u2019m not concealing this. You know, \u2018Whoever conceals their sin does not prosper\u2019; but I\u2019m saying, \u201cHey, this is what happened.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>As you lead a church staff, you\u2019re confronted with this often. I have the kind of relationship with our staff where, if they did something like that, they would shine a spotlight on it and say, \u201cHey, here\u2019s what happened.\u201d It\u2019s not\u2014we don\u2019t shoot our wounded\u2014but we say: \u201cOkay, how are you doing?\u201d \u201cWhat led to this?\u201d \u201cWas this coping from some experience? How\/when was the last time?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019re trying to determine: \u201cHey, are you in a place, where you can still minister to others?\u201d or \u201cDo you need a sabbatical?\u201d or \u201cDo you need us to meet and talk through recovery?\u201d You know, \u201cWhat is <em>actually <\/em>going on?\u201d or \u201cDo you need to move into another job while you get well for a season?\u201d There\u2019s a little bit of art, not science, there; but I would not be afraid of doing hard things, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Because God\u2019s going to bless obedience.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> He <em>blesses<\/em> obedience.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I was actually\u2014as you were talking, JP, I was thinking, \u201cAll of the same things you just said, in my opinion, apply to the marriage. If my husband or my wife has a struggle with\u2014it could be lust; it could be greed; it could be pride\u2014any one of these\u2014apathy\u2014how do you bring <em>her<\/em> in?\u2014how do you bring <em>him<\/em>?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Obviously, Monica\u2019s been part of your story, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; that\u2014and what I think about as we\u2019re going back and forth on provoking thoughts\u2014I think there are a lot of people, whose marriage is hurting, and they pull the curtains down\/they pull the blinds down.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave and Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> They\u2019re like, \u201cWe can\u2019t let them know how we\u2019re struggling.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> They get out there, and it\u2019s all laughs; it\u2019s the Instagram highlight reel and \u201cAll things are great,\u201d and \u201cWe\u2019re on vacation.\u201d They get in the living room; and you know, they don\u2019t know how to speak to each other.<\/p>\n<p>Y\u2019all are doing that thing\u2014right?\u2014<em>Art of Marriage? <\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. [Laughter] What do you mean? You\u2019re <em>in <\/em>the <em>Art of Marriage<\/em>\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014the new one.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t know where you were with it, but I\u2019m so glad you\u2019re putting together that resource.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> That\u2019s going to <em>bless<\/em> people.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> We\u2019ve updated it, and we\u2019re going to talk about that in our next episode some more.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Great! Thank you for all you guys do to help people in their marriage, because don\u2019t you agree that people are pulling the blinds down? They\u2019re saying, \u201cHey, I don\u2019t want you to know.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I agree with that, especially in the church.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> And that\u2019s the perception management piece, too. I think, \u201cHey, guys! Wherever you\u2019re struggling, and wherever you\u2019re doing what it is you don\u2019t want to do, step one is to tell some other brothers and sisters: \u2018Hey, I continue to do something I don\u2019t want to do. I continue to look at something,\u201d \u201c\u2026spend in ways,\u201d \u201c\u2026watch something,\u201d \u201c\u2026say things,\u201d \u201c\u2026respond in anger in ways that are inconsistent with what Jesus wants for me.\u2019 Start there!\u201d It\u2019s confession, you know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> One of the greatest gifts Dave gave me, early on, in our marriage\u2014he was a young pastor\u2014[when] I said, \u201cI don\u2019t know what to do. I don\u2019t know if we\u2019re supposed to hide our stuff; I don\u2019t know if we\u2019re supposed to confess our stuff.\u201d And he said, \u201cI\u2019m an idiot! You can tell anybody you want that I\u2019m an idiot. You can tell them everything that I do that makes you mad or that I\u2019m failing in.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I was blown away by that because talk about <em>not <\/em>protecting your image!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> It is healthy, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I remember\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> So she went and told everybody!\u2014that\u2019s what she did.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> No, I had a small group of friends in the church\u2014they were <em>in <\/em>the church; Dave was the pastor\u2014but it was good, because they realized, \u201cOh, they\u2019re just like us!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cThey\u2019re walking that journey.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And I think, too, I get kind of riled up when we\u2019re talking about porn. I have three sons; I see this next generation of women and men being <em>trapped<\/em>! It is going to <em>demolish <\/em>marriages if we don\u2019t allow Jesus to come in.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes, kids.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014kids. As a mom and dad,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019ve got to bring it into the light.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014we need to be <em>praying<\/em>, too, and asking God to protect our homes, being smart by getting devices out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> But I don\u2019t think we should live in fear either.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Because our God will battle for us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes, and we\u2019ve got to be consistent.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> There are critics in the church, who will say, \u201cYou\u2019re shaming them.\u201d \u201cNo, no, no, no, no, no, no; you don\u2019t understand. Jesus died to set us free. There\u2019s no shame! We\u2019re not dealing with shame; we\u2019re talking about <em>freedom.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> That\u2019s why I go first.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> That\u2019s why I talk about these things. People are like, \u201cI can\u2019t believe you said that word.\u201d I say, \u201cNo, no! I have found a freedom that\u2019s available <em>to you<\/em>, and I want it <em>for you. <\/em>It\u2019s the enemy who tries to drive you to a place of <em>concealing<\/em> sin.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> People say, \u201cIn talking about it, you\u2019re inspiring people to conceal it.\u201d \u201cNo! No, no, no, no. I want to <em>compel <\/em>people to step into the light. God is light! He is health; He is forgiveness; He is grace; He is restoration, reconciliation, and regeneration. These are the things that God is about. He\u2019s about restoring you. He wants to do that right now!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> My hope is always\u2014whether I\u2019m preaching a sermon or even a broadcast right now\u2014my hope is two parts: one, that the listener or the congregant will say, \u201cWow! They\u2019re like us! They had the same conversation in their family room we had this week. I can\u2019t believe it!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> The second part, though\u2014because I think sometimes, we end there, saying, \u201cOkay, that\u2019s my job,\u201d\u2014I think the second part is that the person listening would say, \u201cBut they know Jesus in a way I don\u2019t think I know. There\u2019s a victory they\u2019re experiencing; there\u2019s power. They have both. I relate to them; but I also <em>want<\/em> the Jesus they know, [whom] I don\u2019t feel like I know.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014who <em>gives <\/em>freedom!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> They\u2019re inspired to chase after Him; we\u2019re experiencing both sides of that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I don\u2019t want this to be a love bombardment; but that\u2019s why I look forward to doing this with you guys so much, because the <em>country <\/em>needs examples of people who are <em>real<\/em>\u2014they follow Jesus, but they\u2019re honest; they\u2019re authentic; and they know how to have fun\u2014they still love Jesus; they love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan: <\/strong>I love\u2014Ann, I\u2019m not surprised that he said that to you, that he gave you permission to \u201c\u2026tell on me,\u201d\u2014you know, that\u2019s <em>healthy<\/em>; and I\u2019m not surprised God would build what He\u2019s built around you to help other marriages, because it\u2019s healthy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Hey, can we get one more?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Which one are you picking, because I have one. What are you thinking?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, I want to hit drunkenness and sobriety, but that isn\u2019t the one. The last chapter: cynicism and optimism.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Again, it may be just where I\u2019m living; but the older I get, the more cynicism I\u2019ve seen, and sometimes, I feel in my own heart.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Can you talk to that a little bit? That\u2019s a modern war that you say we fight.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes, I see it in our church. I think a health engine of the church is empty nesters. I think there are a lot of grandfathers becoming the kind of grandfathers they <em>don\u2019t<\/em> want to be, where their grandchildren say, \u201cHey, Pops is grumpy!\u201d\u2014you know? [Laughter] \u201cGramps is grumpy!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s in all generations. I think it is definitely in the \u201cspirit of the air\u201d right now, just cynicism\/a critical spirit. I don\u2019t think the internet has helped us here. People go on threads and just give full vent to their anger; it\u2019s ungodly\u2014it is <em>not <\/em>what Jesus did when He was here on the earth. I mean, pick your fruit of the Spirit! Is it love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, or self-control?\u2014it\u2019s <em>none <\/em>of those things.<\/p>\n<p>Because Jesus rose from the dead, and gave us hope for eternal life\u2014where we\u2019re going to be with God forever and ever and ever and ever and ever in paradise\u2014the way that paradise starts today\/the way that eternal life starts today is living in this broken world with this incredible <em>hope <\/em>and optimism, knowing that God\u2019s going to restore it. I meet a lot of \u201cChristians,\u201d\u2014 I\u2019m saying it in air quotes\u2014so-called \u201cChristians\u201d that live like God <em>lost, <\/em>and like He\u2019s not going to be able to put it back together, like He\u2019s really stumped by their problems. And that\u2019s just not the God whom we worship.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> And they just <em>talk <\/em>endlessly about the next generation and how hopeless it is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> And it\u2019s the opposite!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> And we bring it into our own homes, because we get cynical about our own marriages: \u201cHe\u2019s never going to change,\u201d \u201cShe\u2019s never going to change.\u201d We should be looking in a mirror, and saying, \u201cWhat about me? It\u2019s not about her,\u201d \u201cIt\u2019s not about him; it\u2019s about <em>me<\/em>. God, can You change <em>me<\/em>?\u201d And there should be optimism there, because that\u2019s what He does!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Satan loves a critical spirit. And Ephesians says, \u201cDo not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouth, but only what is helpful for building others up, so that it may benefit those who listen [Ephesians 4:29].\u201d I talk with my kids a lot: \u201cHey, use words that <em>bring life<\/em>,not tear down, but bring life.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>If you are just a little bit more thoughtful on anything that you\u2019re critical about\u2014whether it\u2019s politics, or the next generation, or\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014church.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014something you see happening in church; you know, the music\u2019s too loud [Laughter]\u2014whatever it is\u2014if you\u2019re just a little bit more thoughtful, and you go slow, there\u2019s a way to say that in a positive form; I\u2019m not just talking about the simple compliment sandwich. I\u2019m like, \u201cMan, where can you speak words of <em>life<\/em>?\u201d\u2014then, figure that out! Use your words to build up, not to tear down.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> So, JP, come back tomorrow. Let\u2019s talk about <em>the Art of Marriage.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Can we please?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, let\u2019s do it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I\u2019m in.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Shelby:<\/strong> You know, if I\u2019m honest, I have a tendency to be super-critical with my thoughts and my attitude and, of course, my words, just what they were talking about there. I did stand-up comedy for four years, and it\u2019s almost a pre-requisite to have a critical eye on the world and other people; so I really struggle with that. But hearing this conversation, especially what they were talking about there at the end, encourages me that God calls us to a better way of living, by reflecting Jesus and being a life-giving spirit instead of [being] so critical all the time. It\u2019s so great; I <em>love<\/em> that conversation.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jonathan Pokluda on <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>Jonathan has written a book called <em>Why Do I Do What I Don\u2019t Want to Do?<\/em>\u2014right out of Romans 7 there. This is a book that helps you understand that practicing virtues is not just something you do; it\u2019s something done <em>in <\/em>you slowly, by the power of the Holy Spirit transforming you into the person you were meant to be all along. So whether you\u2019re 18 or 80, it\u2019s never too late to change. This book will help you do that.<\/p>\n<p>This book by Jonathan Pokluda is going to be our gift to you when you partner with us financially at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. You can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com in order to do that, or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d And feel free to drop us something in the mail if you\u2019d like. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, FL 32832.<\/p>\n<p>Now, right at the end of the conversation, Dave Wilson asked JP to come back tomorrow and talk about the <em>Art of Marriage. <\/em>The <em>Art of Marriage <\/em>is a tool by FamilyLife that facilitates meaningful conversations and growth in relationships. We are, right now, one day away from our <em>Art of Marriage <\/em>preview event!<\/p>\n<p>Do you ever wonder what marriage is actually <em>for? <\/em>Well, we\u2019re going to have lots of guests: Dave and Ann, of course; Aaron and Jamie Ivey, and Jonathan Pokluda to talk about the <em>Art of Marriage<\/em> tomorrow, November 1<sup>st<\/sup>. Register while there\u2019s still time at FamliyLife.com\/comingsoon, or you can check out the link in our show notes. We hope the preview event tomorrow night will be super helpful for you.<\/p>\n<p>Now, on the program tomorrow, Jonathan Pokluda is going to be back, talking about what the devil\u2019s strategy is in your marriage. You don\u2019t want to miss that! That\u2019s tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>1<\/p>\n"],"duration":["00:27:11"],"show_notes":["<p><strong>Show Notes and Resources<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Sign up for <a href=\"http:\/\/familylife.com\/comingsoon\">familylife.com\/comingsoon<\/a> and get notified of when pre-orders are live!<br \/>\nLearn more about Jonathan Pokluda at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.jonathanpokluda.com\/home\">jonathanpokluda.com<\/a><br \/>\nConnect with JP \u2013 <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/jpokluda\/\">@jpokluda<\/a><br \/>\nReceive JP's\u00a0 book <a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/october-2023\/why-do-i-do-what-i-dont-want-to-do\/?cru_source=FLTD24andcru_medium=Icareandcru_campaign=October2023\">when you give a donation<\/a><br \/>\nor find JP's new book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/why-do-i-do-what-i-dont-want-to-do-replace-deadly-vices-with-life-giving-virtues\/\">Why Do I Do What I Don't Want to Do? here.<\/a><br \/>\nCheck out all of JP's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/jp-pokluda\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all of FamilyLife' podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n"],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["37.32M"],"filesize_raw":["39136481"],"_edit_lock":["1736371012:47000"],"_edit_last":["47000"],"theme_header_position":["Sticky"],"post_header_is_sticky":["default"],"is_header_overlay":["0"],"episode_type":["audio"],"date_recorded":["2023-10-31 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vise-grip of lust or critical thoughts can feel insurmountable. But from personal battles, author Jonathan Pokluda has come to a tangible escape hatch.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<p><strong>Show Notes and Resources<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Sign up for <a href=\"http:\/\/familylife.com\/comingsoon\">familylife.com\/comingsoon<\/a> and get notified of when pre-orders are live!<br \/>\nLearn more about Jonathan Pokluda at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.jonathanpokluda.com\/home\">jonathanpokluda.com<\/a><br \/>\nConnect with JP \u2013 <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/jpokluda\/\">@jpokluda<\/a><br \/>\nReceive JP's\u00a0 book <a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/october-2023\/why-do-i-do-what-i-dont-want-to-do\/?cru_source=FLTD24andcru_medium=Icareandcru_campaign=October2023\">when you give a donation<\/a><br \/>\nor find JP's new book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/why-do-i-do-what-i-dont-want-to-do-replace-deadly-vices-with-life-giving-virtues\/\">Why Do I Do What I Don't Want to Do? here.<\/a><br \/>\nCheck out all of JP's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/jp-pokluda\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all of FamilyLife' podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-10-31.pdf","transcript_content":"<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Okay, I\u2019ve never done this on <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>I\u2019ve done it as a preacher in a sermon; I\u2019ve done it at a marriage conference, <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>,<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>from the stage; but I\u2019ve never done it in the studio. It may never work, but we\u2019re going to try this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, great!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Shelby: <\/strong>Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> By the way, we\u2019ve got Jonathan Pokluda with us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> We\u2019re calling him JP because those are his initials.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> She\u2019s nervous right now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Are you nervous?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m nervous.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> What are we doing?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m totally nervous!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I know, there\u2019s a thin line between genius and about to get crazy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Insanity!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> You know, Dave walks that thin line.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I like that line; I really do! I should grab my guitar and sing something about it, but I\u2019m not going to.<\/p>\n<p>I call it the Ten Commandments Test. Have you ever done this?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> No.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Everybody stand up. I\u2019m going to have to stay seated, because I have to be on the mic.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You guys stand up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, we\u2019re actually standing up?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Literally, standing up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> We\u2019re not going to be standing up long, I have a feeling. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019re standing up. I\u2019m going to start with commandment number one of the Ten Commandments. When you\u2019ve broken a commandment, you sit; if you haven\u2019t broken this one, you stay standing. Exodus 20: \u201cAnd God spoke all these words, saying, \u2018I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.\u2019\u201d Here\u2019s number one: \u201cYou shall have no other gods before me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I\u2019ll have to sit.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> JP went down; Ann went down. Is anybody standing?! I\u2019ve pastored 30 years; about every couple of years, I would do it again.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Sometimes, it was for fun; but often, I was teaching about something I wanted to illustrate. <em>Most <\/em>of the room is still standing after commandment number one.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes, which is\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> And you know, as a pastor,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014a misunderstanding;\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014you\u2019re sitting there,\u2014I knew all of you guys would go down, because <em>you<\/em> understand commandment number one.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> As we talk about your book today, <em>Why Do I Do What I Don\u2019t Want to Do?<\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014they\u2019re thinking: \u201cOh, I\u2019ve never worshiped Satan,\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014or\u00a0 \u201cI\u2019ve never worshiped Ba\u2019al,\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014or, you know, \u201c\u2026sacrificed to some idol.\u201d Man, every pair of ears, right now, out there has had another god before God.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> What\u2019s that mean?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Amazon Prime! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014to name one!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> To name one.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Shoes, watches,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> <em>Anything <\/em>that comes before God.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014food.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014food is a big one.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave and Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> When I do it at the FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>, we do a session on Saturday morning, where we\u2019re trying to help people understand: \u201cWithout Jesus, you have no hope for your life or your marriage; and you are a sinner.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Often, people look up at you, like, \u201cWell, the people sitting beside me\u2014especially my wife!\u2014she\u2019s a sinner, but I\u2019m not.\u201d When you do this, you\u2019re hoping for them to say, \u201cWoah!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> It levels the playing field.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> But the fact that people are still up at number six or seven is what you just said: \u201cThey <em>don\u2019t <\/em>really understand.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> As you wrote this book about\u2014the subtitle: <em>Replace Deadly Vices with Life-Giving Virtues\u2014<\/em>we have to <em>at least <\/em>admit, \u201cWe <em>do<\/em> what we don\u2019t want to do,\u201d right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019ve got to start there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Every human being that has ever lived, with one exception, has done lots of things they didn\u2019t want to do. You see it in parenting so clearly\u2014you know, the struggle is real\u2014it\u2019s like, \u201cMan, why do that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, it\u2019s interesting, as we walked through the book, we talked a little bit yesterday about <em>ancient<\/em> vices.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> And then you\u2019ve got modern\u2014you call them modern\u2014wars. We only hit <em>one<\/em>; you have <em>ten<\/em>! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I know; I know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> We had a whole 30 minutes, and we got <em>one. <\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> One down.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> So we won\u2019t get all ten; and I would just say, \u201cGet the book! It\u2019s really good.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Let\u2019s talk about one that really affects all of us\u2014butt affects our marriages <em>big<\/em> time\u2014<em>lust<\/em>. And the virtue is\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014self-control.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I became a Christian in my early 20\u2019s. There were lots of things that people had warned me: \u201cHey, this will grip you.\u201d So many of those things I could pick up and set down; it wasn\u2019t like, \u201cOh, man! I need to do that again. I can\u2019t wait to!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Prior to marriage, I thought, very, very naively:\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I know what you\u2019re going to say! We all <em>think<\/em> it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cI\u2019ll struggle with this, at least, until I\u2019m married,\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014which is the biggest, most laughable <em>joke<\/em> in the history of history; because all marriage does is: it takes a giant magnifying glass and puts it on your struggles in singleness. I always say, \u201cI\u2019ve never met somebody with marriage problems. They all have single-people problems that they brought into their marriage.\u201d That was certainly true with me when it came to lust and pornography.<\/p>\n<p>The problem with sin is, when you feed something, it grows; so this is the lie of \u201c\u2026one last time.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> We think: \u201cOh, I\u2019m going to look at that one last time,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m going to give in to that one last time.\u201d What you don\u2019t realize is: you fed that thing one last time; so <em>next<\/em> time, it\u2019s going to be bigger and stronger than the last time. The next time is actually more <em>difficult<\/em> than the last time.\u201d Our <em>best<\/em> move is to really think, \u201cHey, my last time is behind me; so what does it look like for me to put these things in place so that I actually <em>fight <\/em>this?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m blown away by how many men and women, after a message on lust or whatever we\u2019re talking about, will come up\u2014I\u2019ll share some of my story\u2014they\u2019ll come up and say: \u201cMan, I\u2019m really struggling with lust,\u201d or \u201cI\u2019m really struggling with porn.\u201d I\u2019ll say, \u201cHow do you access porn?\u201d They\u2019ll say, \u201cMy phone.\u201d And I\u2019ll say, \u201cWell, where is your phone?\u201d They\u2019ll say, \u201cWell, it\u2019s in my pocket.\u201d I say, \u201cOh, I thought you said you were struggling.\u201d They say, \u201cI am!\u201d I say, \u201cNo, you\u2019re not; you\u2019re carrying it around with you everywhere you go. If this is the thing that you want to <em>win!<\/em>...<em>\u201d <\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n<p>If somebody says, \u201cYou\u2019re legalistic,\u201d\u2014I say, \u201cLet\u2019s turn to Matthew 5; because Jesus says, \u201cIf your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off,\u201d\u2014I think the point of his sermon\/his preaching there is: \u201cDo what it takes; make it difficult on yourself.\u201d People will say, \u201cWell, it won\u2019t help.\u201d Well, at least, it will make it <em>harder<\/em> for you to just give into it than if you carried it around with you in your pocket everywhere you go.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s where you start, with self-control? Because you\u2019re sitting here with an iPad and a phone beside you. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s true; it\u2019s true, and somebody would say, \u201cWhat about you?\u201d And I would say, \u201cThere was a time when I <em>couldn\u2019t.<\/em>\u201d So what does that look like? I almost <em>never <\/em>travel alone. When I go into that hotel room by myself, I don\u2019t cut on the TV. If a hotel\u2014and they\u2019ve kind of moved away from this, praise God\u2014but if they have adult streaming, I say, \u201cHey, can you cut that off?\u201d Sometimes, it\u2019s the awkward conversation in the lobby: \u201cOh, Mr. Pokluda, are you traveling with children?\u201d \u201cNope, just me! Just a guy who wants to avoid all temptation as much as possible.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, I\u2019m a little older\u2014but I traveled with the Lions, and I remember one time, I called down to the front desk, and I did that, JP\u2014I said, \u201cHey, can you turn off the adult channels in my room?\u201d And the lady at the front desk said, \u201c<em>Why?\u201d <\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I said, \u201cI don\u2019t want to watch them.\u201d She said, \u201cWell, don\u2019t watch them.\u201d I said, \u201cI <em>can\u2019t just not <\/em>watch them<em>! Please <\/em>turn them off!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes, it\u2019s demonic.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> It is demonic.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019ve shared that here publicly, and I\u2019m sure in your own church. A lot of pastors would never say this out loud, that that\u2019s a struggle. Why do you do that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> We could get to the perception management chapter.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I\u2019ve got a story, and I\u2019ll tell this as briefly as I can. A seminary wanted me to speak on how to reach the next generation. One time, prior to giving a sermon, I was talking about how we need to be authentic\u2014which is the virtue to perception management\u2014is authenticity. I talked about how, one time, I was going to preach; but the day before, I was on Instagram, and I clicked on a hashtag. It was innocent, but the next one wasn\u2019t; I intentionally clicked on a hashtag, hoping to see something lustful.<\/p>\n<p>Before I preached the sermon\u2014that had nothing to do with lust\u2014I just confessed that to the congregation. I said, \u201cGuys, this was yesterday; and shame is just beating me up today. I need to tell you this; and I\u2019m <em>so sorry<\/em>, because I\u2019m going to tell you <em>not<\/em> to do the very thing that I did at some point. I didn\u2019t give in to it; I didn\u2019t act further on it\u2014the Holy Spirit, in His kindness, awoke me to: \u2018Hey, you need to flee now,\u2019 and I did\u2014but I had intentionally looked at something that I would say all of you should never look at. I\u2019m truly sorry. Will you forgive me?\u201d I prayed, then I preached a sermon that had nothing to do with that. That night, I had the <em>longest<\/em> line of people wanting to talk to me than any other time in the history of speaking.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wow!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I was there\u2014it was an evening message\u2014but I was there until 11 pm, when security made us leave\u201411pm, talking to people, who said, \u201cI can\u2019t believe you said that! Me, too; I\u2019m struggling so much.\u201d Nothing to do with the sermon I had just given, right? [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>At that seminary, that invited me to speak on reaching the next generation, I shared that story. The feedback afterwards\u2014I\u2019ll never forget, because I began to weep as I read it\u2014it said: \u201cYou\u2019re a person in ministry. You need to present to be holy. You need to give the perception that you are holy. You cannot use words like that in a mixed-gender audience.\u201d That was some of the feedback I got; and I just began to weep, because I thought, \u201cYou\u2019ll <em>never<\/em> reach the next generation.\u201d They <em>do not <\/em>want someone who presents to walk a foot above the earth and never struggles. They need to know <em>how <\/em>you\u2019ve struggled. Don\u2019t manufacture things\u2014don\u2019t say things for shock value\u2014but be <em>honest<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> You know, as I was driving here with my son this morning, we were talking about something. I said, \u201cHey, your dad is always going to be honest with you. When you want to know the truth, find me or your mom, and we will tell you the truth. We\u2019ll tell you things that some parents will say you\u2019re not ready to hear; but I want you to hear it from us rather than from people who are trying to figure it out themselves. I\u2019ve made a lot of mistakes; and if you ask me a question, I\u2019m always going to tell you the truth.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Here\u2019s a question I was asked last weekend, which I\u2019d never been asked\u2014it\u2019s not that unique\u2014but I thought, \u201cHuh?\u201d Do you know what question I\u2019m going to say?\u2014you were sitting there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I have no idea.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Ann and I spoke at a Fellowship of Chrisitan Athletes Football Coaches\u2019 Marriage Retreat in Branson, Missouri.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> It was pretty cool, because FCA now has a football division. I was a football coach, and it was like <em>our people<\/em>. The artist they brought in to lead worship, Michael O\u2019Brian, used to be the lead singer of New Song.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> The guy is <em>phenomenal.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> And he sits at our table, and he says, \u201cI listen to you guys on <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>My wife\u2026\u201d\u2014blah, blah, blah. And he says, \u201cI\u2019ve got to ask you something,\u201d because we talked about struggles in our marriage. I talked about\u2014and we put it in our book, <em>Vertical Marriage<\/em>\u2014my porn struggle, back 40 years ago. He said, \u201cLet me ask you this: when is it needed that somebody steps into a person\u2019s life, especially a minister\u2019s life?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> He said, \u201cIt\u2019s good that you\u2019re honest, and you share your struggle.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> But when is it the time that the elders or somebody should step in, and say, \u201cOkay, this is not okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cYou need to apply church discipline.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cYou\u2019re doing it once every two weeks now,\u201d or \u201cYou\u2019re doing it once a month.\u201d What is the number that says, \u201cOkay, it\u2019s really cool you\u2019re vulnerable and authentic,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s the counterpart to entitlement\u2014but when is it that we probably need to get you help?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes, yes. That is a great question! I\u2019m glad he asked.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, I didn\u2019t answer it very well; so I want <em>you<\/em> to answer it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Well, here\u2019s the deal: I think, when we talk about these things\u2014and there\u2019s what you say, and then there\u2019s what people <em>hear<\/em>, and then the gaps that they fill in\u2014somebody might be out there, thinking, \u201cOh, man! This guy is still struggling with porn, and he\u2019s preaching every week,\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014you know, this guy is like, \u201cNo!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> If I\u2019m <em>regularly<\/em> looking at pornography, I think I am disqualified for, at least, a season. There needs to be a <em>long<\/em> season where I\u2019m getting help; I\u2019m in recovery; I\u2019m being ministered to; I\u2019m not doing the ministering. If someone\u2019s listening, in ministry, I think that\u2019s true; and I\u2019ll say, \u201cConsider all things. Consider what you\u2019re doing\/where you are.\u201d The bottom line is: \u201cIf this is a recurring deal, where you\u2019re giving in to it, you\u2019re losing the battle. <em>Get help<\/em>!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I\u2019m trying to say; there\u2019s no shortage of recovery ministries, church programs, and pastors out there. In every city in America, there is someone there who is going to want to come alongside you and help you. <em>Get help!<\/em><\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s a difference between: \u201cMan, this is not recurring. I\u2019m fighting lust; and man, I made a mistake yesterday; I went too far.\u201d Now, I\u2019m playing the game of: \u201cHow fast can I confess this? How quickly can I bring it into the light?\u201d I\u2019m not trying to hide it from someone; I want <em>everyone<\/em> to know; I\u2019m not concealing this. You know, \u2018Whoever conceals their sin does not prosper\u2019; but I\u2019m saying, \u201cHey, this is what happened.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>As you lead a church staff, you\u2019re confronted with this often. I have the kind of relationship with our staff where, if they did something like that, they would shine a spotlight on it and say, \u201cHey, here\u2019s what happened.\u201d It\u2019s not\u2014we don\u2019t shoot our wounded\u2014but we say: \u201cOkay, how are you doing?\u201d \u201cWhat led to this?\u201d \u201cWas this coping from some experience? How\/when was the last time?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019re trying to determine: \u201cHey, are you in a place, where you can still minister to others?\u201d or \u201cDo you need a sabbatical?\u201d or \u201cDo you need us to meet and talk through recovery?\u201d You know, \u201cWhat is <em>actually <\/em>going on?\u201d or \u201cDo you need to move into another job while you get well for a season?\u201d There\u2019s a little bit of art, not science, there; but I would not be afraid of doing hard things, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Because God\u2019s going to bless obedience.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> He <em>blesses<\/em> obedience.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I was actually\u2014as you were talking, JP, I was thinking, \u201cAll of the same things you just said, in my opinion, apply to the marriage. If my husband or my wife has a struggle with\u2014it could be lust; it could be greed; it could be pride\u2014any one of these\u2014apathy\u2014how do you bring <em>her<\/em> in?\u2014how do you bring <em>him<\/em>?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Obviously, Monica\u2019s been part of your story, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; that\u2014and what I think about as we\u2019re going back and forth on provoking thoughts\u2014I think there are a lot of people, whose marriage is hurting, and they pull the curtains down\/they pull the blinds down.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave and Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> They\u2019re like, \u201cWe can\u2019t let them know how we\u2019re struggling.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> They get out there, and it\u2019s all laughs; it\u2019s the Instagram highlight reel and \u201cAll things are great,\u201d and \u201cWe\u2019re on vacation.\u201d They get in the living room; and you know, they don\u2019t know how to speak to each other.<\/p>\n<p>Y\u2019all are doing that thing\u2014right?\u2014<em>Art of Marriage? <\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. [Laughter] What do you mean? You\u2019re <em>in <\/em>the <em>Art of Marriage<\/em>\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014the new one.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t know where you were with it, but I\u2019m so glad you\u2019re putting together that resource.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> That\u2019s going to <em>bless<\/em> people.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> We\u2019ve updated it, and we\u2019re going to talk about that in our next episode some more.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Great! Thank you for all you guys do to help people in their marriage, because don\u2019t you agree that people are pulling the blinds down? They\u2019re saying, \u201cHey, I don\u2019t want you to know.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I agree with that, especially in the church.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> And that\u2019s the perception management piece, too. I think, \u201cHey, guys! Wherever you\u2019re struggling, and wherever you\u2019re doing what it is you don\u2019t want to do, step one is to tell some other brothers and sisters: \u2018Hey, I continue to do something I don\u2019t want to do. I continue to look at something,\u201d \u201c\u2026spend in ways,\u201d \u201c\u2026watch something,\u201d \u201c\u2026say things,\u201d \u201c\u2026respond in anger in ways that are inconsistent with what Jesus wants for me.\u2019 Start there!\u201d It\u2019s confession, you know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> One of the greatest gifts Dave gave me, early on, in our marriage\u2014he was a young pastor\u2014[when] I said, \u201cI don\u2019t know what to do. I don\u2019t know if we\u2019re supposed to hide our stuff; I don\u2019t know if we\u2019re supposed to confess our stuff.\u201d And he said, \u201cI\u2019m an idiot! You can tell anybody you want that I\u2019m an idiot. You can tell them everything that I do that makes you mad or that I\u2019m failing in.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I was blown away by that because talk about <em>not <\/em>protecting your image!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> It is healthy, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I remember\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> So she went and told everybody!\u2014that\u2019s what she did.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> No, I had a small group of friends in the church\u2014they were <em>in <\/em>the church; Dave was the pastor\u2014but it was good, because they realized, \u201cOh, they\u2019re just like us!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cThey\u2019re walking that journey.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And I think, too, I get kind of riled up when we\u2019re talking about porn. I have three sons; I see this next generation of women and men being <em>trapped<\/em>! It is going to <em>demolish <\/em>marriages if we don\u2019t allow Jesus to come in.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes, kids.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014kids. As a mom and dad,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019ve got to bring it into the light.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014we need to be <em>praying<\/em>, too, and asking God to protect our homes, being smart by getting devices out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> But I don\u2019t think we should live in fear either.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Because our God will battle for us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes, and we\u2019ve got to be consistent.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> There are critics in the church, who will say, \u201cYou\u2019re shaming them.\u201d \u201cNo, no, no, no, no, no, no; you don\u2019t understand. Jesus died to set us free. There\u2019s no shame! We\u2019re not dealing with shame; we\u2019re talking about <em>freedom.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> That\u2019s why I go first.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> That\u2019s why I talk about these things. People are like, \u201cI can\u2019t believe you said that word.\u201d I say, \u201cNo, no! I have found a freedom that\u2019s available <em>to you<\/em>, and I want it <em>for you. <\/em>It\u2019s the enemy who tries to drive you to a place of <em>concealing<\/em> sin.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> People say, \u201cIn talking about it, you\u2019re inspiring people to conceal it.\u201d \u201cNo! No, no, no, no. I want to <em>compel <\/em>people to step into the light. God is light! He is health; He is forgiveness; He is grace; He is restoration, reconciliation, and regeneration. These are the things that God is about. He\u2019s about restoring you. He wants to do that right now!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> My hope is always\u2014whether I\u2019m preaching a sermon or even a broadcast right now\u2014my hope is two parts: one, that the listener or the congregant will say, \u201cWow! They\u2019re like us! They had the same conversation in their family room we had this week. I can\u2019t believe it!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> The second part, though\u2014because I think sometimes, we end there, saying, \u201cOkay, that\u2019s my job,\u201d\u2014I think the second part is that the person listening would say, \u201cBut they know Jesus in a way I don\u2019t think I know. There\u2019s a victory they\u2019re experiencing; there\u2019s power. They have both. I relate to them; but I also <em>want<\/em> the Jesus they know, [whom] I don\u2019t feel like I know.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014who <em>gives <\/em>freedom!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> They\u2019re inspired to chase after Him; we\u2019re experiencing both sides of that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I don\u2019t want this to be a love bombardment; but that\u2019s why I look forward to doing this with you guys so much, because the <em>country <\/em>needs examples of people who are <em>real<\/em>\u2014they follow Jesus, but they\u2019re honest; they\u2019re authentic; and they know how to have fun\u2014they still love Jesus; they love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan: <\/strong>I love\u2014Ann, I\u2019m not surprised that he said that to you, that he gave you permission to \u201c\u2026tell on me,\u201d\u2014you know, that\u2019s <em>healthy<\/em>; and I\u2019m not surprised God would build what He\u2019s built around you to help other marriages, because it\u2019s healthy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Hey, can we get one more?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Which one are you picking, because I have one. What are you thinking?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, I want to hit drunkenness and sobriety, but that isn\u2019t the one. The last chapter: cynicism and optimism.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Again, it may be just where I\u2019m living; but the older I get, the more cynicism I\u2019ve seen, and sometimes, I feel in my own heart.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Can you talk to that a little bit? That\u2019s a modern war that you say we fight.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes, I see it in our church. I think a health engine of the church is empty nesters. I think there are a lot of grandfathers becoming the kind of grandfathers they <em>don\u2019t<\/em> want to be, where their grandchildren say, \u201cHey, Pops is grumpy!\u201d\u2014you know? [Laughter] \u201cGramps is grumpy!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s in all generations. I think it is definitely in the \u201cspirit of the air\u201d right now, just cynicism\/a critical spirit. I don\u2019t think the internet has helped us here. People go on threads and just give full vent to their anger; it\u2019s ungodly\u2014it is <em>not <\/em>what Jesus did when He was here on the earth. I mean, pick your fruit of the Spirit! Is it love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, or self-control?\u2014it\u2019s <em>none <\/em>of those things.<\/p>\n<p>Because Jesus rose from the dead, and gave us hope for eternal life\u2014where we\u2019re going to be with God forever and ever and ever and ever and ever in paradise\u2014the way that paradise starts today\/the way that eternal life starts today is living in this broken world with this incredible <em>hope <\/em>and optimism, knowing that God\u2019s going to restore it. I meet a lot of \u201cChristians,\u201d\u2014 I\u2019m saying it in air quotes\u2014so-called \u201cChristians\u201d that live like God <em>lost, <\/em>and like He\u2019s not going to be able to put it back together, like He\u2019s really stumped by their problems. And that\u2019s just not the God whom we worship.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> And they just <em>talk <\/em>endlessly about the next generation and how hopeless it is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> And it\u2019s the opposite!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> And we bring it into our own homes, because we get cynical about our own marriages: \u201cHe\u2019s never going to change,\u201d \u201cShe\u2019s never going to change.\u201d We should be looking in a mirror, and saying, \u201cWhat about me? It\u2019s not about her,\u201d \u201cIt\u2019s not about him; it\u2019s about <em>me<\/em>. God, can You change <em>me<\/em>?\u201d And there should be optimism there, because that\u2019s what He does!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Satan loves a critical spirit. And Ephesians says, \u201cDo not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouth, but only what is helpful for building others up, so that it may benefit those who listen [Ephesians 4:29].\u201d I talk with my kids a lot: \u201cHey, use words that <em>bring life<\/em>,not tear down, but bring life.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>If you are just a little bit more thoughtful on anything that you\u2019re critical about\u2014whether it\u2019s politics, or the next generation, or\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014church.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014something you see happening in church; you know, the music\u2019s too loud [Laughter]\u2014whatever it is\u2014if you\u2019re just a little bit more thoughtful, and you go slow, there\u2019s a way to say that in a positive form; I\u2019m not just talking about the simple compliment sandwich. I\u2019m like, \u201cMan, where can you speak words of <em>life<\/em>?\u201d\u2014then, figure that out! Use your words to build up, not to tear down.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> So, JP, come back tomorrow. Let\u2019s talk about <em>the Art of Marriage.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Can we please?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, let\u2019s do it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I\u2019m in.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Shelby:<\/strong> You know, if I\u2019m honest, I have a tendency to be super-critical with my thoughts and my attitude and, of course, my words, just what they were talking about there. I did stand-up comedy for four years, and it\u2019s almost a pre-requisite to have a critical eye on the world and other people; so I really struggle with that. But hearing this conversation, especially what they were talking about there at the end, encourages me that God calls us to a better way of living, by reflecting Jesus and being a life-giving spirit instead of [being] so critical all the time. It\u2019s so great; I <em>love<\/em> that conversation.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jonathan Pokluda on <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>Jonathan has written a book called <em>Why Do I Do What I Don\u2019t Want to Do?<\/em>\u2014right out of Romans 7 there. This is a book that helps you understand that practicing virtues is not just something you do; it\u2019s something done <em>in <\/em>you slowly, by the power of the Holy Spirit transforming you into the person you were meant to be all along. So whether you\u2019re 18 or 80, it\u2019s never too late to change. This book will help you do that.<\/p>\n<p>This book by Jonathan Pokluda is going to be our gift to you when you partner with us financially at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. You can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com in order to do that, or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d And feel free to drop us something in the mail if you\u2019d like. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, FL 32832.<\/p>\n<p>Now, right at the end of the conversation, Dave Wilson asked JP to come back tomorrow and talk about the <em>Art of Marriage. <\/em>The <em>Art of Marriage <\/em>is a tool by FamilyLife that facilitates meaningful conversations and growth in relationships. We are, right now, one day away from our <em>Art of Marriage <\/em>preview event!<\/p>\n<p>Do you ever wonder what marriage is actually <em>for? <\/em>Well, we\u2019re going to have lots of guests: Dave and Ann, of course; Aaron and Jamie Ivey, and Jonathan Pokluda to talk about the <em>Art of Marriage<\/em> tomorrow, November 1<sup>st<\/sup>. Register while there\u2019s still time at FamliyLife.com\/comingsoon, or you can check out the link in our show notes. We hope the preview event tomorrow night will be super helpful for you.<\/p>\n<p>Now, on the program tomorrow, Jonathan Pokluda is going to be back, talking about what the devil\u2019s strategy is in your marriage. You don\u2019t want to miss that! That\u2019s tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2023 FamilyLife. 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