{"id":307849,"date":"2023-09-14T09:15:00","date_gmt":"2023-09-14T13:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/addiction-and-our-marriages-happily-even-after-bob-and-dannah-gresh-2\/"},"modified":"2025-04-22T14:11:42","modified_gmt":"2025-04-22T18:11:42","slug":"addiction-and-our-marriages-happily-even-after-bob-and-dannah-gresh-2","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/addiction-and-our-marriages-happily-even-after-bob-and-dannah-gresh-2\/","title":{"rendered":"Addiction&#8211;and Our Marriage&#8217;s Happily Even After: Bob and Dannah Gresh"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Bob and Dannah Gresh&#8217;s marriage has traveled dark roads of addiction. But they decided to participate in God&#8217;s redemption story. Together, they discovered something better than romance: a love that endures, and happily even after.<\/p>\n<p><em fetchpriority=\"high\"><strong>It\u2019s so much easier to pretend everything is okay and to just keep going through the motions. That\u2019s not okay. What that is, is us avoiding pain. Pain is not a problem. It is a gift from God. When you feel the pain, that\u2019s God\u2019s friendly messenger saying, \u201cThere\u2019s something that together we can fix if you\u2019re willing to be brave enough and feel the pain.\u201d &#8211;Dannah Gresh<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Bob and Dannah Gresh&#8217;s marriage has traveled dark roads of addiction. Together, they discovered a love that endures, and happily even after.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2023-09-14.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:50","filesize":"25.49M","filesize_raw":"26729791","date_recorded":"2023-09-14 09:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2860,2844],"tags":[2251],"podcast_series":[8676],"cwp_profile":[3140],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307849","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-hardship-and-suffering","category-pornography","tag-addiction-and-marriage","podcast_series-addiction-and-our-happily-even-after-bob-and-dannah-gresh","cwp_profile-bob-and-dannah-gresh","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307849\/addiction-and-our-marriages-happily-even-after-bob-and-dannah-gresh-2","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307849\/addiction-and-our-marriages-happily-even-after-bob-and-dannah-gresh-2","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"VXlq5DIg2g\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/addiction-and-our-marriages-happily-even-after-bob-and-dannah-gresh-2\/\">Addiction&#8211;and Our Marriage&#8217;s Happily Even After: Bob and Dannah Gresh<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/addiction-and-our-marriages-happily-even-after-bob-and-dannah-gresh-2\/embed\/#?secret=VXlq5DIg2g\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Addiction&#8211;and Our Marriage&#8217;s Happily Even After: Bob and Dannah Gresh&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"VXlq5DIg2g\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-09-14.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2023-09-14.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>Shelby: Hey, Shelby Abbott here. Just want to give a heads up before you listen to this next program. Today\u2019s conversation on FamilyLife Today covers some sensitive but important subjects that might not be suitable for younger ears. So please use discretion when listening to this next broadcast. Alright, now let\u2019s jump into it.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: I didn\u2019t know if it was workaholism, I didn\u2019t know if it was stress from work, I didn\u2019t know if it was the porn resurfacing, but partly I didn\u2019t want to know.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: It\u2019s so much easier to pretend everything is okay and to just keep going through the motions. That\u2019s not okay. What that is, is us avoiding pain. Pain is not a problem. It is a gift from God. When you feel the pain, that\u2019s God\u2019s friendly messenger saying, \u201cThere\u2019s something that together we can fix if you\u2019re willing to be brave enough and feel the pain.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife\u00ae app.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: There\u2019s a little secret, I think, in the church. I literally last night looked up a stat to see, \u201cOkay, is my secret confirmed?\u201d 68 percent of men, church men; 50 percent of pastors, look at porn. I don\u2019t know if those numbers are accurate right now, but that\u2019s what I saw last night.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s a big secret.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I mean it\u2019s like people are talking about it a little bit, but it\u2019s still in marriages, it\u2019s in spouses. I guarantee there are some spouses listening right now who are thinking, \u201cMy wife doesn\u2019t know.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Hmm.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Or, \u201cMy husband doesn\u2019t know\u2014\"<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201c\u2013that I struggle with this\u201d either. It\u2019s almost like an addiction\u2014daily or weekly; or \u201cIt\u2019s been three months, and I sort of splurge and purge, but it\u2019s something I am struggling with, and it\u2019s a secret.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Not only that, Dave, but I feel we\u2019re in epidemic kind of proportions because it\u2019s taking men, and women now, out of the game spiritually, because they\u2019re hiding in the dark. They don\u2019t know what to do with it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and some people right now don\u2019t even like us talking about it. And because it was my secret, and to be a FamilyLife co-host of a show and a pastor and saying that out loud, is something that isn\u2019t easily done. I don\u2019t want to say it even right now. I\u2019d just like to pretend that was never a part of my story, but it is, and I\u2019ve just got to prepare you. Get ready because we\u2019re going there today. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s going to be a great couple of days (if not more), because we have Bob and Dannah Gresh in the studio, and they\u2019re looking at us like they know exactly what we\u2019re talking about.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: We do know what you\u2019re talking about, and the secret is that it\u2019s not really a secret inside of a marriage. Everybody always knows, even if they don\u2019t know and they\u2019re not talking about it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You have been married how many years?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: 34.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: 34 years. He\u2019s in charge of the number. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: 34, with how many kids?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Three.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Three wonderful kids; four grandbabies.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow, so you\u2019re empty nesters?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: We are.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: We\u2019re living the good life right now. It\u2019s an interesting window to be in. We thought we\u2014we were empty nesters for a little bit and had all this freedom, and now we have grandkids and we\u2019re like\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u2013now there are four birthdays a year where we\u2019re kind of tied to a calendar and loving it.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: We love it!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We are, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Love it!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Fantastic!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Fun.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. Now, I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ve written\u2014have you written a book together before?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Well, we didn\u2019t write this one together. But it\u2019s a book for women.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I provide all the drama and the bad stuff. [Laughter] In the first couple books she wrote, I was a real hero. That\u2019s when we were dating and things like that. I did a pretty good job!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Since then, we\u2019ve shared stories that aren\u2019t\u2013I\u2019m not quite the hero I was, but we\u2019re redeeming\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s okay.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: You are.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It\u2019s a redemption story.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2013because Jesus is the hero\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u2013that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2013and we\u2019re just broken, and we\u2019re depending upon Him.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: That\u2019s right, that\u2019s it right there.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: That\u2019s such a good answer [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That is. That\u2019s why I married her, Bob.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I\u2019m going to use that one. I stepped right into that one and set her up. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: She got it. Well, the book is called Happily Even After, and I already told you what a great title!<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Let God Redeem Your Marriage. So, I\u2019m just going to let you go. Tell us what this means; what's this story?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Where the book starts is many years into our marriage, I thought something was wrong. I didn\u2019t know what. I didn\u2019t really want to know what, but I was experiencing a lot of unwellness. I didn\u2019t know if I was crazy or depressed or what was wrong. I got back in touch with my Christian therapist of almost 30 years and said, \u201cHey, like I\u2019m going through a thing. I need to talk. I don\u2019t know what\u2019s up.\u201d And her first question to me was, \u201cDannah, has Bob relapsed?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Was I using porn again or going down that road.?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: She immediately went there?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: She went there.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: You know, it\u2019s interesting being in a marriage where you know you\u2019re sabotaging yourself. You\u2019re doing things against your principles, insane things. Why do I do things that are against my interests? And that\u2019s what addiction is, you know? You do things that are sabotaging your own self-interests.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Sounds like something Paul said.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cWhy do I do the things?\u201d yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: That\u2019s right, Romans 7. I think about that and for me, I\u2019ve always told Dannah when I was struggling. But I will say there was an event coming up. There was something happening where I knew if I told her, it was going to wreck the next six months. It was going to be, you know--<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re thinking of the timing?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u2014I\u2019m thinking of the timing<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Like, \u201cIs this a good time?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Which is also rationale.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It\u2019s also total rationale. I don\u2019t want to hurt her. It would be better for her not to know. And at some point, mine was starting to escalate because it always escalates when you\u2019re into lust and porn. There was a day I had to sit her down. We have these two red chairs, comfortable chairs in the living room of our home, and there was a time when I had to sit her down. I actually snuck a picture of her before that\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What do you mean snuck? You just literally took your phone and\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes, and I thought, \u201cI want a picture of her before I tell her this, because she\u2019ll never look at me the same way again probably,\u201d or I\u2019ll never feel that way.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: That\u2019s a really sad thing, but I sat her down and\u2014I don\u2019t remember this, but\u2014what I said was, \u201cI think the only way for me to get back to God is probably going to break your heart,\u201d and I did. I broke her heart.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What happened when he said those words to you, Dannah? Did your heart start racing?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Well, yes and no. For 18 months, I had been praying that God would work in his heart, that whatever it was\u2013I had sat down with Tippy, and I had said, \u201cI can ask him if he\u2019d relapsed.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Tippy is your counselor?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Tippy is my counselor, right. I said, \u201cI can ask him if he\u2019s relapsed, but he\u2019s always been forthcoming, so I can\u2019t imagine that he wouldn\u2019t be again.\u201d But we began to pray from the Word. It says, \u201cTrust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths,\u201d and if you keep reading that, it says, \u201cAnd it will be healing to your flesh and strength to your bones.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I was really unwell. I was sick. I had joint and muscle pain. I had headaches. I had fatigue that didn\u2019t make any sense. I\u2019d been from doctor to doctor to doctor, and they couldn\u2019t really diagnose anything. I was experiencing what many women do when there\u2019s been the cycle that keeps repeating itself, and eventually that cycle can turn into\u2014about 70 percent of wives of men who cyclically use pornography exhibit symptoms of PTSD. Now, that doesn\u2019t mean they have a diagnosis of PTSD, and it also doesn\u2019t mean that if you have joint and muscle pains, or you have headaches, or you\u2019re tired, that your husband\u2019s using pornography.<\/p>\n<p>But they may not be disconnected. It could be they have something to do with each other, and that\u2019s because our bodies are trying to get our attention. I look back now, and I realize, \u201cOh, he wasn\u2019t making eye contact with me during that time.\u201d I didn\u2019t really want to face that. I didn\u2019t really want to admit that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It seems like Bob would have the physical symptoms, and yet you as the wife are having physical symptoms.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: That\u2019s what the research bears out.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I started to see that. I thought, \u201cThis is ridiculous.\u201d But I started to see times when I could kind of pinpoint my acting out and her exact\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u2013same time getting sick or whatever. Again, we found out since then, there\u2019s research that can happen with stress and stuff like that. It pushed me over the edge. \u201cI\u2019m doing this. She doesn\u2019t know why, but I think I\u2019m\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2013I\u2019m the cause.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: And you know there could be very much a spiritual element to it. I believe we don\u2019t even come close to understanding what\u2019s happening in the spiritual realm. But behavioral science has acknowledged there\u2019s something called limbic resonance, and that\u2019s when your brain\u2014you can walk into a room, and you kind of get a read on the room, and you realize there was just a fight in here, or there\u2019s a lot of joy in here.<\/p>\n<p>Now, there might not be anybody laughing. There might not be anybody fighting, but you read it. The person that shared this with us compared it to when you walk into a room where someone was smoking recently, and you don\u2019t see a cigarette, you don\u2019t see an ashtray; but you\u2019re aware that something was going on in this room recently. And we, in our marriages, have a heightened awareness of limbic resonance. When your spouse\u2019s spirit isn\u2019t flourishing, you read it; but sometimes you don\u2019t want to, so you stuff what you\u2019re reading, and your body keeps saying, \u201cNo, no, no. I need you to pay attention to this. I\u2019m sending you these signals so that you will do something to fix what\u2019s wrong.\u201d And when you stuff it, and you ignore it, and you don\u2019t bring it up, that\u2019s when sometimes your body starts to really tell the tale.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I do think that was very true of us. I could\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Hey! Could we make this about them? [Laughter] I don\u2019t want to\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But no, I could tell Dave and I were struggling a little bit, and I kept saying, \u201cSomething\u2019s wrong. Something\u2019s wrong between us.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I would lie because I knew\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I think that God gives us that as a spouse to know, \u201cWe\u2019re not right. We\u2019re not vibing the way we used to. What\u2019s going on?\u201d I do think you\u2019re right, and I\u2019m even thinking, Dave: I had some health issues years ago. I had some heart issues\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2013some palpitations\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2013and I was living\u2014I don\u2019t know how you felt, but I was living\u2014in this dread and fear, and I know that affects us physically.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes, sure it does; and it\u2019s God\u2019s grace. You know, one of the things that we\u2019ve learned as we\u2019ve walked through this journey\u2014a man who helped us greatly is a Christian counselor, Pete Kuiper. We just love him. He has been a lifeline from Jesus for us. And you know when you\u2019re stuffing the pain, I didn\u2019t confront Bob, partly because I was waiting on the Lord, and I wanted him to confess whatever was going on. But I didn\u2019t know if it was workaholism. I didn\u2019t know if it was stress from work. I didn\u2019t know if it was the porn resurfacing. But partly, I didn\u2019t want to know.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: It\u2019s so much easier to pretend everything is okay and to just keep going through the motions. That\u2019s not okay. What that is, is us avoiding pain. This great therapist taught us that pain is not a problem. It\u2019s a gift from God. When you feel the pain, that's God\u2019s friendly messenger saying, \u201cThere\u2019s something that together we can fix if you\u2019re willing to be brave enough and feel the pain.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Now, Dave, you were talking about anger and the electrical cord, the extension cord\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You listen to everything.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: He\u2019s a fanatic!<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u2014and I love that; I love that example, because that\u2019s exactly what we\u2019re talking about with\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2013it\u2019s plugged in\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bob: That\u2019s right. It\u2019s going someplace else.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019ve got to trace it back, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It\u2019s a 10 reaction to a 2 problem.<\/p>\n<p>Ann and Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: And that happens, by the way, a lot when we\u2019re on vacation, I\u2019m just driving around, [Laughter] There a lot of\u2014I just have to say, \u201cThis is a two. It\u2019s just a two.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: But yes, it was a difficult time, and I was down and depressed and distant.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What got you to the point where you said, \u201cI have to tell her?\u201d I mean, because obviously I know, you put it off. You put it off. I mean every day, at least for me it was, \u201cI\u2019ve got to confess.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And then you did. Why?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It was wrecking my health, too; my ability to get up in the morning. I was doing things, and everything was against my self-interest you know. I\u2019m running a ministry, so for the past year, I would tell the people running it with me\u2014I\u2019d say, \u201cYou know, I\u2019m having a down thing here. You can\u2019t trust what I say about what God is saying right now.\u201d Even though I\u2019m the leader, I would take communion in our church, go in one door and go out the other and throw the communion away, because I didn\u2019t want to take communion. I know how important communion is, so I know all these things and\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: \u2013conviction.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u2013it was conviction.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: It was conviction.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And yet, Dannah didn\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And she really didn\u2019t want to know. She did kind of.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes, I mean, Tippy and I had talked about it\u2014my therapist and I had talked about it\u2014and I said, \u201cHe\u2019s just been so forthcoming. I don\u2019t know why he would not be forthcoming now.\u201d But looking back, I think that was me avoiding it.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: There were good times. This wasn\u2019t\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: --24\/7.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: The cycle would end, and I\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019d be good.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I\u2019d pay penance, and I\u2019d think, \u201cThis is better.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cI\u2019m never going to do this again.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Right. \u201cNever, never would do this again.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Never going to do this again. You know, it\u2019s insanity.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And I\u2019m sure you guys think, \u201cThis is my problem. This is my pain. Why do I want to give to my wife?\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It\u2019s just going to hurt.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s going to hurt her, and now she has to carry it.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Right. That\u2019s such a great equivocation there to say, \u201cI don\u2019t want to hurt her. I\u2019m already doing this, and she has nothing to do with it. It\u2019s not about her. It\u2019s not about our sex life. It\u2019s not about her being pretty. She won\u2019t understand it.\u201d You can kind of live in that for a while. You know it\u2019s a lie. You know it\u2019s a lie, but\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: We know now, the research bears out, if there\u2019s a porn problem in your house, there\u2019s a loneliness problem in your house. Surveys reveal that it\u2019s not just men struggling with pornography today. There\u2019s a growing number of women in the church also struggling; about 30 percent of women. And almost across the board, they\u2019ll tell you they\u2019re deeply lonely. And so, when your spouse doesn\u2019t know, that only increases the loneliness, because the question you ask\u2014well, what\u2019s the question you ask in your head? \u201cIf she really knew\u2014\"<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u201cIf she really knew what I was doing, she wouldn\u2019t\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u201cShe wouldn\u2019t love me like this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: That loneliness just builds when you don\u2019t tell the story, and you don\u2019t feel the pain together. Pete taught us (our counselor taught us) that emotions are an essential ingredient in intimacy. When he\u2019s over there feeling lonely and not telling me because he doesn't want to crush my heart, and I\u2019m over here feeling trauma, that\u2019s me feeling fear. That\u2019s me feeling sadness, and all those things; but we\u2019re not talking about those emotions; we are not intimate. When we started to talk about them, and we started to cry, we started to fight, not always in a healthy way\u2014at least on my side. That\u2019s my confession because I threw things at him\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bob: She threw a candy jar once. It was a little square candy jar about four by four.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Was it glass?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It was glass, but it was so hard, it stuck in the wall.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It stuck in the drywall.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: The hole is still there in the wall.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Is it really? Is it like a\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bob: We patched it up again\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: \u2013but it\u2019s not well patched. It\u2019s still there.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, here\u2019s what I think when I hear that story; I think, \u201cI\u2019ve been there,\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, it isn\u2019t really that\u2013oh no, we were there!<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes, here\u2019s the one thing about me throwing stuff that I look back on; hindsight is so valuable, right? The research that we\u2019ve done in the years since this happened [has helped us] understand some of what we went through a little bit better, but my brain wasn\u2019t working in the way that it normally does. Our brains are\u2014for example, a woman\u2019s brain is created to do math, be teachers, be politicians, take care of a home, all of that stuff. We do that in a relatively stable state all day long. But our brains were also created to give birth. We are not in a stable state when we give birth. [Laughter] Our brain is very different!<\/p>\n<p>Bob: No comment.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: At that moment, right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Hey, we\u2019re going to be quiet over here.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: But we\u2019re able to do it, right? You might slap your husband, you might yell at the nurse. [Laughter] You might use words that you don\u2019t normally use. I don\u2019t know. That wasn\u2019t one of my particular things, but\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u2013you have no idea what you said. [Laughter] You have no memory of the actual words you said, but I think they were good.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: My brain when we were in the middle of sorting through this wasn\u2019t functioning in that same stable way, and that\u2019s because it was confused; it was traumatized; it was processing the pain. It was trying to make sense of puzzle pieces that were starting to fit together. I wasn\u2019t thinking rationally, and on the other side of the brain, there\u2019s incredible evidence that pornography is terribly damaging to the brain physiologically.<\/p>\n<p>I mean, if you take a functional scan of a man or a woman who\u2019s addicted, using pornography, and lay that brain next to a normal brain, they\u2019re going to look very different. But lay that next to a heroin addict\u2019s brain, and they look almost the same. They look like Swiss cheese; there are all these craters and holes from dopamine overload. Those hits of dopamine, hitting the brain, doing damage in much the way heroin produces chemicals in the brain and produces damage.<\/p>\n<p>His brain isn\u2019t working well, right? My brain is not working well. We need help. That\u2019s the point we came to. Two Christian leaders, capable of helping all kinds of other marriages, [but] we couldn\u2019t help our own, and we needed to tell someone.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: If I were a listener, I\u2019d be listening, [and] I would be on the edge of my seat; because if your husband or wife isn\u2019t struggling, you might have kids or know someone that is struggling. I think we\u2019re all desperate, especially in the United States, in our culture, as I said before, we\u2019re at epidemic levels. So, help us. What can we do? As listeners at this point, what are your recommendations?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Well, I had to move from, let\u2019s say, being accountable every week or every month, to every day. To be in that community of believers, and that helped me a great deal. I went to 12 step groups. I dug in, and I think that there\u2019s different levels of people\u2019s addiction to this. I was\u2014I have a pretty addictive personality.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And Bob, let me add this: you had said a relapse, so this had happened before in your marriage?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: This was the kind of thing that would rear its ugly head, maybe not for a couple of years, and then it would. You know, there was a time I had to go to my board\u2014I had two boards, ministry boards: one for the school I created, and one for us\u2014and say, \u201cI\u2019m not qualified right now to lead this ministry. I\u2019ve fallen below the qualifications of a leader, and I need a break. They worked with me on that so, fortunately, I always confessed before I was caught. That helps trust a little bit, but I needed to be really open. \u201cI need to be working on my spiritual life and disciplines.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Bob\u2019s telling someone every day. He was, you know, in a men\u2019s Christian small group from our church one day a week. He was in a 12-step program one day a week. He\u2019s with his therapist another day a week. At the beginning of our journey, that\u2019s how persistent he was in getting the help he needed. But I find that there are a lot of women married to men who don\u2019t tell.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Me, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: And they\u2019re sitting over there lonely and\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And bruised and broken.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: \u2014and they\u2019re not even responding well, because they\u2019re so broken. But one of two reasons keeps them from telling: one might be their pride, and they\u2019re doing image management for their family\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: \u2013and for themselves. And sometimes, they believe the lie that, \u201cIf I tell someone, they will be disrespectful to my husband.\u201d But listen, if it\u2019s something that will make you a better wife, and it\u2019s something that\u2019s going to get your marriage the help it needs, that\u2019s not disrespecting your husband. That\u2019s loving your husband.<\/p>\n<p>So, I just beg any woman who says, \u201cYes, my husband\u2019s been in this battle, in this cycle, I know what you\u2019re talking about, but I\u2019ve never told anyone.\u201d You need to text someone right now, because you\u2019ll chicken out. Just say, \u201cHey\u201d\u2014your pastor\u2019s wife, or your best friend who\u2019s godly and a prayer warrior for you, or maybe your therapist, your Christian therapist that you\u2019ve never told\u2014\u201cI have a secret that I\u2019ve never told anyone, and this is my accountability text. You need to ask me what it is.\u201d Just do that. Take that first step, and you\u2019re going to find it\u2019s the beginning of walking in freedom.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and I would just add, do what Dannah just said. I know some of you just pulled your phone out, and then you got scared. And I know there are guys like Bob and myself. It\u2019s in the dark, it\u2019s your secret. We started today [with] \u201cThere\u2019s a secret in the church.\u201d Do not let it be a secret any longer! I think the reason you\u2019re listening today [is] God put this program on your phone, on the radio, or wherever it is, because He\u2019s saying, \u201cToday is the first step toward freedom and healing.\u201d And you don\u2019t get there unless you take that scary first step.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Bob and Dannah Gresh on FamilyLife Today. You know, Dannah has written a book called Happily Even After: Let God Redeem Your Marriage. This book unpacks how to forgive, how to live with joy, and [how to] celebrate as you participate in your husband\u2019s redemption story. You can pick up a copy of that book at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329. That\u2019s 800, \u2018F\u2019 as in family, \u2018L\u2019 as in life and then the word \u2018TODAY.\u2019<\/p>\n<p>Well, we know you\u2019ve heard us talk about Weekend to Remember\u00ae a lot, and how transformative it can be for your marriages. But really, even though we plan out so much of it, Weekend to Remember can be what you make of it. Now, whether you go with hopes to redeem your marriage, or maintain, or even just a weekend away together, the conversations between you and your spouse can change everything about your weekend and your marriage for years to come.<\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s why we\u2019re so excited to let you know that now through September 18th, registrations for the Weekend to Remember are half off. This is a chance to get together with your spouse and intentionally focus on your marriage, so don\u2019t wait. Head on over to WeekendtoRemember.com now and register for your getaway. Again, that\u2019s WeekendtoRemember.com.<\/p>\n<p>If you feel the deep need for community, discipleship, and support when dealing with your struggles, join us tomorrow as Dave and Ann Wilson talk again with Bob and Dannah Gresh to help us see that sin in marriage can\u2019t be isolated. We need community to draw it out. That\u2019s tomorrow. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<br \/>\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<br \/>\nwww.FamilyLife<\/p>\n"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:27:50"],"show_notes":["<ul>\n<li>Connect with Bob and Dannah Gresh at\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/dannahgresh.com\/\">dannahgresh.com\/<\/a>\u00a0or on Instagram\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/dannah_gresh\/\">@dannah_gresh<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Buy Dannah's book\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/happily-even-after-let-god-redeem-your-marriage\">Happily Even After<\/a> on our shop<\/li>\n<li>Listen to Bob and Dannah's\u00a0podcast, \"<a href=\"https:\/\/dannahgresh.com\/happily-even-after-podcast\/\">Happily Even After<\/a>\", where they talk through the redemption and healing from addiction that they've experienced in their marriage.<\/li>\n<li>Interested in connecting with a Christian counselor regarding an addiction.\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.ccef.org\/find-a-counselor-near-you\/\">Use this resource to get started<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Revitalize your marriage: 50% off Weekend to Remember Getaways, Sep 4-18! Strengthen bonds, create lasting memories. Learn more at\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/weekendtoremember.com\/\">weekendtoremember.com<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Intrigued by today's episode? Think deeper how to recover from addiction and move towards a healthier marriage on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/addiction-recovery-our-story-ron-and-nan-deal\/\">this FamilyLife Today podcast<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a>\u00a0or\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["25.49M"],"filesize_raw":["26729791"],"_edit_lock":["1745346584:47000"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_5363e0078d0ab341dc2085a355454312337e39e9":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" 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and Dannah Gresh's marriage has traveled dark roads of addiction. Together, they discovered a love that endures, and happily even after.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>Connect with Bob and Dannah Gresh at\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/dannahgresh.com\/\">dannahgresh.com\/<\/a>\u00a0or on Instagram\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/dannah_gresh\/\">@dannah_gresh<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Buy Dannah's book\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/happily-even-after-let-god-redeem-your-marriage\">Happily Even After<\/a> on our shop<\/li>\n<li>Listen to Bob and Dannah's\u00a0podcast, \"<a href=\"https:\/\/dannahgresh.com\/happily-even-after-podcast\/\">Happily Even After<\/a>\", where they talk through the redemption and healing from addiction that they've experienced in their marriage.<\/li>\n<li>Interested in connecting with a Christian counselor regarding an addiction.\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.ccef.org\/find-a-counselor-near-you\/\">Use this resource to get started<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Revitalize your marriage: 50% off Weekend to Remember Getaways, Sep 4-18! Strengthen bonds, create lasting memories. Learn more at\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/weekendtoremember.com\/\">weekendtoremember.com<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Intrigued by today's episode? Think deeper how to recover from addiction and move towards a healthier marriage on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/addiction-recovery-our-story-ron-and-nan-deal\/\">this FamilyLife Today podcast<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a>\u00a0or\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-09-14.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>Shelby: Hey, Shelby Abbott here. Just want to give a heads up before you listen to this next program. Today\u2019s conversation on FamilyLife Today covers some sensitive but important subjects that might not be suitable for younger ears. So please use discretion when listening to this next broadcast. Alright, now let\u2019s jump into it.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: I didn\u2019t know if it was workaholism, I didn\u2019t know if it was stress from work, I didn\u2019t know if it was the porn resurfacing, but partly I didn\u2019t want to know.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: It\u2019s so much easier to pretend everything is okay and to just keep going through the motions. That\u2019s not okay. What that is, is us avoiding pain. Pain is not a problem. It is a gift from God. When you feel the pain, that\u2019s God\u2019s friendly messenger saying, \u201cThere\u2019s something that together we can fix if you\u2019re willing to be brave enough and feel the pain.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife\u00ae app.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: There\u2019s a little secret, I think, in the church. I literally last night looked up a stat to see, \u201cOkay, is my secret confirmed?\u201d 68 percent of men, church men; 50 percent of pastors, look at porn. I don\u2019t know if those numbers are accurate right now, but that\u2019s what I saw last night.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s a big secret.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I mean it\u2019s like people are talking about it a little bit, but it\u2019s still in marriages, it\u2019s in spouses. I guarantee there are some spouses listening right now who are thinking, \u201cMy wife doesn\u2019t know.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Hmm.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Or, \u201cMy husband doesn\u2019t know\u2014\"<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201c\u2013that I struggle with this\u201d either. It\u2019s almost like an addiction\u2014daily or weekly; or \u201cIt\u2019s been three months, and I sort of splurge and purge, but it\u2019s something I am struggling with, and it\u2019s a secret.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Not only that, Dave, but I feel we\u2019re in epidemic kind of proportions because it\u2019s taking men, and women now, out of the game spiritually, because they\u2019re hiding in the dark. They don\u2019t know what to do with it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and some people right now don\u2019t even like us talking about it. And because it was my secret, and to be a FamilyLife co-host of a show and a pastor and saying that out loud, is something that isn\u2019t easily done. I don\u2019t want to say it even right now. I\u2019d just like to pretend that was never a part of my story, but it is, and I\u2019ve just got to prepare you. Get ready because we\u2019re going there today. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s going to be a great couple of days (if not more), because we have Bob and Dannah Gresh in the studio, and they\u2019re looking at us like they know exactly what we\u2019re talking about.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: We do know what you\u2019re talking about, and the secret is that it\u2019s not really a secret inside of a marriage. Everybody always knows, even if they don\u2019t know and they\u2019re not talking about it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You have been married how many years?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: 34.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: 34 years. He\u2019s in charge of the number. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: 34, with how many kids?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Three.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Three wonderful kids; four grandbabies.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow, so you\u2019re empty nesters?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: We are.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: We\u2019re living the good life right now. It\u2019s an interesting window to be in. We thought we\u2014we were empty nesters for a little bit and had all this freedom, and now we have grandkids and we\u2019re like\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u2013now there are four birthdays a year where we\u2019re kind of tied to a calendar and loving it.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: We love it!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We are, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Love it!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Fantastic!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Fun.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. Now, I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ve written\u2014have you written a book together before?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Well, we didn\u2019t write this one together. But it\u2019s a book for women.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I provide all the drama and the bad stuff. [Laughter] In the first couple books she wrote, I was a real hero. That\u2019s when we were dating and things like that. I did a pretty good job!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Since then, we\u2019ve shared stories that aren\u2019t\u2013I\u2019m not quite the hero I was, but we\u2019re redeeming\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s okay.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: You are.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It\u2019s a redemption story.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2013because Jesus is the hero\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u2013that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2013and we\u2019re just broken, and we\u2019re depending upon Him.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: That\u2019s right, that\u2019s it right there.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: That\u2019s such a good answer [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That is. That\u2019s why I married her, Bob.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I\u2019m going to use that one. I stepped right into that one and set her up. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: She got it. Well, the book is called Happily Even After, and I already told you what a great title!<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Let God Redeem Your Marriage. So, I\u2019m just going to let you go. Tell us what this means; what's this story?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Where the book starts is many years into our marriage, I thought something was wrong. I didn\u2019t know what. I didn\u2019t really want to know what, but I was experiencing a lot of unwellness. I didn\u2019t know if I was crazy or depressed or what was wrong. I got back in touch with my Christian therapist of almost 30 years and said, \u201cHey, like I\u2019m going through a thing. I need to talk. I don\u2019t know what\u2019s up.\u201d And her first question to me was, \u201cDannah, has Bob relapsed?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Was I using porn again or going down that road.?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: She immediately went there?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: She went there.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: You know, it\u2019s interesting being in a marriage where you know you\u2019re sabotaging yourself. You\u2019re doing things against your principles, insane things. Why do I do things that are against my interests? And that\u2019s what addiction is, you know? You do things that are sabotaging your own self-interests.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Sounds like something Paul said.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cWhy do I do the things?\u201d yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: That\u2019s right, Romans 7. I think about that and for me, I\u2019ve always told Dannah when I was struggling. But I will say there was an event coming up. There was something happening where I knew if I told her, it was going to wreck the next six months. It was going to be, you know--<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re thinking of the timing?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u2014I\u2019m thinking of the timing<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Like, \u201cIs this a good time?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Which is also rationale.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It\u2019s also total rationale. I don\u2019t want to hurt her. It would be better for her not to know. And at some point, mine was starting to escalate because it always escalates when you\u2019re into lust and porn. There was a day I had to sit her down. We have these two red chairs, comfortable chairs in the living room of our home, and there was a time when I had to sit her down. I actually snuck a picture of her before that\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What do you mean snuck? You just literally took your phone and\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes, and I thought, \u201cI want a picture of her before I tell her this, because she\u2019ll never look at me the same way again probably,\u201d or I\u2019ll never feel that way.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: That\u2019s a really sad thing, but I sat her down and\u2014I don\u2019t remember this, but\u2014what I said was, \u201cI think the only way for me to get back to God is probably going to break your heart,\u201d and I did. I broke her heart.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What happened when he said those words to you, Dannah? Did your heart start racing?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Well, yes and no. For 18 months, I had been praying that God would work in his heart, that whatever it was\u2013I had sat down with Tippy, and I had said, \u201cI can ask him if he\u2019d relapsed.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Tippy is your counselor?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Tippy is my counselor, right. I said, \u201cI can ask him if he\u2019s relapsed, but he\u2019s always been forthcoming, so I can\u2019t imagine that he wouldn\u2019t be again.\u201d But we began to pray from the Word. It says, \u201cTrust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths,\u201d and if you keep reading that, it says, \u201cAnd it will be healing to your flesh and strength to your bones.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I was really unwell. I was sick. I had joint and muscle pain. I had headaches. I had fatigue that didn\u2019t make any sense. I\u2019d been from doctor to doctor to doctor, and they couldn\u2019t really diagnose anything. I was experiencing what many women do when there\u2019s been the cycle that keeps repeating itself, and eventually that cycle can turn into\u2014about 70 percent of wives of men who cyclically use pornography exhibit symptoms of PTSD. Now, that doesn\u2019t mean they have a diagnosis of PTSD, and it also doesn\u2019t mean that if you have joint and muscle pains, or you have headaches, or you\u2019re tired, that your husband\u2019s using pornography.<\/p>\n<p>But they may not be disconnected. It could be they have something to do with each other, and that\u2019s because our bodies are trying to get our attention. I look back now, and I realize, \u201cOh, he wasn\u2019t making eye contact with me during that time.\u201d I didn\u2019t really want to face that. I didn\u2019t really want to admit that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It seems like Bob would have the physical symptoms, and yet you as the wife are having physical symptoms.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: That\u2019s what the research bears out.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I started to see that. I thought, \u201cThis is ridiculous.\u201d But I started to see times when I could kind of pinpoint my acting out and her exact\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u2013same time getting sick or whatever. Again, we found out since then, there\u2019s research that can happen with stress and stuff like that. It pushed me over the edge. \u201cI\u2019m doing this. She doesn\u2019t know why, but I think I\u2019m\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2013I\u2019m the cause.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: And you know there could be very much a spiritual element to it. I believe we don\u2019t even come close to understanding what\u2019s happening in the spiritual realm. But behavioral science has acknowledged there\u2019s something called limbic resonance, and that\u2019s when your brain\u2014you can walk into a room, and you kind of get a read on the room, and you realize there was just a fight in here, or there\u2019s a lot of joy in here.<\/p>\n<p>Now, there might not be anybody laughing. There might not be anybody fighting, but you read it. The person that shared this with us compared it to when you walk into a room where someone was smoking recently, and you don\u2019t see a cigarette, you don\u2019t see an ashtray; but you\u2019re aware that something was going on in this room recently. And we, in our marriages, have a heightened awareness of limbic resonance. When your spouse\u2019s spirit isn\u2019t flourishing, you read it; but sometimes you don\u2019t want to, so you stuff what you\u2019re reading, and your body keeps saying, \u201cNo, no, no. I need you to pay attention to this. I\u2019m sending you these signals so that you will do something to fix what\u2019s wrong.\u201d And when you stuff it, and you ignore it, and you don\u2019t bring it up, that\u2019s when sometimes your body starts to really tell the tale.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I do think that was very true of us. I could\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Hey! Could we make this about them? [Laughter] I don\u2019t want to\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But no, I could tell Dave and I were struggling a little bit, and I kept saying, \u201cSomething\u2019s wrong. Something\u2019s wrong between us.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I would lie because I knew\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I think that God gives us that as a spouse to know, \u201cWe\u2019re not right. We\u2019re not vibing the way we used to. What\u2019s going on?\u201d I do think you\u2019re right, and I\u2019m even thinking, Dave: I had some health issues years ago. I had some heart issues\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2013some palpitations\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2013and I was living\u2014I don\u2019t know how you felt, but I was living\u2014in this dread and fear, and I know that affects us physically.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes, sure it does; and it\u2019s God\u2019s grace. You know, one of the things that we\u2019ve learned as we\u2019ve walked through this journey\u2014a man who helped us greatly is a Christian counselor, Pete Kuiper. We just love him. He has been a lifeline from Jesus for us. And you know when you\u2019re stuffing the pain, I didn\u2019t confront Bob, partly because I was waiting on the Lord, and I wanted him to confess whatever was going on. But I didn\u2019t know if it was workaholism. I didn\u2019t know if it was stress from work. I didn\u2019t know if it was the porn resurfacing. But partly, I didn\u2019t want to know.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: It\u2019s so much easier to pretend everything is okay and to just keep going through the motions. That\u2019s not okay. What that is, is us avoiding pain. This great therapist taught us that pain is not a problem. It\u2019s a gift from God. When you feel the pain, that's God\u2019s friendly messenger saying, \u201cThere\u2019s something that together we can fix if you\u2019re willing to be brave enough and feel the pain.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Now, Dave, you were talking about anger and the electrical cord, the extension cord\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You listen to everything.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: He\u2019s a fanatic!<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u2014and I love that; I love that example, because that\u2019s exactly what we\u2019re talking about with\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2013it\u2019s plugged in\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bob: That\u2019s right. It\u2019s going someplace else.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019ve got to trace it back, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It\u2019s a 10 reaction to a 2 problem.<\/p>\n<p>Ann and Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: And that happens, by the way, a lot when we\u2019re on vacation, I\u2019m just driving around, [Laughter] There a lot of\u2014I just have to say, \u201cThis is a two. It\u2019s just a two.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: But yes, it was a difficult time, and I was down and depressed and distant.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What got you to the point where you said, \u201cI have to tell her?\u201d I mean, because obviously I know, you put it off. You put it off. I mean every day, at least for me it was, \u201cI\u2019ve got to confess.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And then you did. Why?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It was wrecking my health, too; my ability to get up in the morning. I was doing things, and everything was against my self-interest you know. I\u2019m running a ministry, so for the past year, I would tell the people running it with me\u2014I\u2019d say, \u201cYou know, I\u2019m having a down thing here. You can\u2019t trust what I say about what God is saying right now.\u201d Even though I\u2019m the leader, I would take communion in our church, go in one door and go out the other and throw the communion away, because I didn\u2019t want to take communion. I know how important communion is, so I know all these things and\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: \u2013conviction.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u2013it was conviction.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: It was conviction.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And yet, Dannah didn\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And she really didn\u2019t want to know. She did kind of.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes, I mean, Tippy and I had talked about it\u2014my therapist and I had talked about it\u2014and I said, \u201cHe\u2019s just been so forthcoming. I don\u2019t know why he would not be forthcoming now.\u201d But looking back, I think that was me avoiding it.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: There were good times. This wasn\u2019t\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: --24\/7.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: The cycle would end, and I\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019d be good.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I\u2019d pay penance, and I\u2019d think, \u201cThis is better.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cI\u2019m never going to do this again.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Right. \u201cNever, never would do this again.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Never going to do this again. You know, it\u2019s insanity.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And I\u2019m sure you guys think, \u201cThis is my problem. This is my pain. Why do I want to give to my wife?\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It\u2019s just going to hurt.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s going to hurt her, and now she has to carry it.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Right. That\u2019s such a great equivocation there to say, \u201cI don\u2019t want to hurt her. I\u2019m already doing this, and she has nothing to do with it. It\u2019s not about her. It\u2019s not about our sex life. It\u2019s not about her being pretty. She won\u2019t understand it.\u201d You can kind of live in that for a while. You know it\u2019s a lie. You know it\u2019s a lie, but\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: We know now, the research bears out, if there\u2019s a porn problem in your house, there\u2019s a loneliness problem in your house. Surveys reveal that it\u2019s not just men struggling with pornography today. There\u2019s a growing number of women in the church also struggling; about 30 percent of women. And almost across the board, they\u2019ll tell you they\u2019re deeply lonely. And so, when your spouse doesn\u2019t know, that only increases the loneliness, because the question you ask\u2014well, what\u2019s the question you ask in your head? \u201cIf she really knew\u2014\"<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u201cIf she really knew what I was doing, she wouldn\u2019t\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u201cShe wouldn\u2019t love me like this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: That loneliness just builds when you don\u2019t tell the story, and you don\u2019t feel the pain together. Pete taught us (our counselor taught us) that emotions are an essential ingredient in intimacy. When he\u2019s over there feeling lonely and not telling me because he doesn't want to crush my heart, and I\u2019m over here feeling trauma, that\u2019s me feeling fear. That\u2019s me feeling sadness, and all those things; but we\u2019re not talking about those emotions; we are not intimate. When we started to talk about them, and we started to cry, we started to fight, not always in a healthy way\u2014at least on my side. That\u2019s my confession because I threw things at him\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bob: She threw a candy jar once. It was a little square candy jar about four by four.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Was it glass?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It was glass, but it was so hard, it stuck in the wall.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It stuck in the drywall.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: The hole is still there in the wall.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Is it really? Is it like a\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bob: We patched it up again\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: \u2013but it\u2019s not well patched. It\u2019s still there.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, here\u2019s what I think when I hear that story; I think, \u201cI\u2019ve been there,\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, it isn\u2019t really that\u2013oh no, we were there!<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes, here\u2019s the one thing about me throwing stuff that I look back on; hindsight is so valuable, right? The research that we\u2019ve done in the years since this happened [has helped us] understand some of what we went through a little bit better, but my brain wasn\u2019t working in the way that it normally does. Our brains are\u2014for example, a woman\u2019s brain is created to do math, be teachers, be politicians, take care of a home, all of that stuff. We do that in a relatively stable state all day long. But our brains were also created to give birth. We are not in a stable state when we give birth. [Laughter] Our brain is very different!<\/p>\n<p>Bob: No comment.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: At that moment, right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Hey, we\u2019re going to be quiet over here.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: But we\u2019re able to do it, right? You might slap your husband, you might yell at the nurse. [Laughter] You might use words that you don\u2019t normally use. I don\u2019t know. That wasn\u2019t one of my particular things, but\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u2013you have no idea what you said. [Laughter] You have no memory of the actual words you said, but I think they were good.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: My brain when we were in the middle of sorting through this wasn\u2019t functioning in that same stable way, and that\u2019s because it was confused; it was traumatized; it was processing the pain. It was trying to make sense of puzzle pieces that were starting to fit together. I wasn\u2019t thinking rationally, and on the other side of the brain, there\u2019s incredible evidence that pornography is terribly damaging to the brain physiologically.<\/p>\n<p>I mean, if you take a functional scan of a man or a woman who\u2019s addicted, using pornography, and lay that brain next to a normal brain, they\u2019re going to look very different. But lay that next to a heroin addict\u2019s brain, and they look almost the same. They look like Swiss cheese; there are all these craters and holes from dopamine overload. Those hits of dopamine, hitting the brain, doing damage in much the way heroin produces chemicals in the brain and produces damage.<\/p>\n<p>His brain isn\u2019t working well, right? My brain is not working well. We need help. That\u2019s the point we came to. Two Christian leaders, capable of helping all kinds of other marriages, [but] we couldn\u2019t help our own, and we needed to tell someone.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: If I were a listener, I\u2019d be listening, [and] I would be on the edge of my seat; because if your husband or wife isn\u2019t struggling, you might have kids or know someone that is struggling. I think we\u2019re all desperate, especially in the United States, in our culture, as I said before, we\u2019re at epidemic levels. So, help us. What can we do? As listeners at this point, what are your recommendations?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Well, I had to move from, let\u2019s say, being accountable every week or every month, to every day. To be in that community of believers, and that helped me a great deal. I went to 12 step groups. I dug in, and I think that there\u2019s different levels of people\u2019s addiction to this. I was\u2014I have a pretty addictive personality.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And Bob, let me add this: you had said a relapse, so this had happened before in your marriage?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: This was the kind of thing that would rear its ugly head, maybe not for a couple of years, and then it would. You know, there was a time I had to go to my board\u2014I had two boards, ministry boards: one for the school I created, and one for us\u2014and say, \u201cI\u2019m not qualified right now to lead this ministry. I\u2019ve fallen below the qualifications of a leader, and I need a break. They worked with me on that so, fortunately, I always confessed before I was caught. That helps trust a little bit, but I needed to be really open. \u201cI need to be working on my spiritual life and disciplines.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Bob\u2019s telling someone every day. He was, you know, in a men\u2019s Christian small group from our church one day a week. He was in a 12-step program one day a week. He\u2019s with his therapist another day a week. At the beginning of our journey, that\u2019s how persistent he was in getting the help he needed. But I find that there are a lot of women married to men who don\u2019t tell.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Me, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: And they\u2019re sitting over there lonely and\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And bruised and broken.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: \u2014and they\u2019re not even responding well, because they\u2019re so broken. But one of two reasons keeps them from telling: one might be their pride, and they\u2019re doing image management for their family\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: \u2013and for themselves. And sometimes, they believe the lie that, \u201cIf I tell someone, they will be disrespectful to my husband.\u201d But listen, if it\u2019s something that will make you a better wife, and it\u2019s something that\u2019s going to get your marriage the help it needs, that\u2019s not disrespecting your husband. That\u2019s loving your husband.<\/p>\n<p>So, I just beg any woman who says, \u201cYes, my husband\u2019s been in this battle, in this cycle, I know what you\u2019re talking about, but I\u2019ve never told anyone.\u201d You need to text someone right now, because you\u2019ll chicken out. Just say, \u201cHey\u201d\u2014your pastor\u2019s wife, or your best friend who\u2019s godly and a prayer warrior for you, or maybe your therapist, your Christian therapist that you\u2019ve never told\u2014\u201cI have a secret that I\u2019ve never told anyone, and this is my accountability text. You need to ask me what it is.\u201d Just do that. Take that first step, and you\u2019re going to find it\u2019s the beginning of walking in freedom.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and I would just add, do what Dannah just said. I know some of you just pulled your phone out, and then you got scared. And I know there are guys like Bob and myself. It\u2019s in the dark, it\u2019s your secret. We started today [with] \u201cThere\u2019s a secret in the church.\u201d Do not let it be a secret any longer! I think the reason you\u2019re listening today [is] God put this program on your phone, on the radio, or wherever it is, because He\u2019s saying, \u201cToday is the first step toward freedom and healing.\u201d And you don\u2019t get there unless you take that scary first step.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Bob and Dannah Gresh on FamilyLife Today. You know, Dannah has written a book called Happily Even After: Let God Redeem Your Marriage. This book unpacks how to forgive, how to live with joy, and [how to] celebrate as you participate in your husband\u2019s redemption story. You can pick up a copy of that book at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329. That\u2019s 800, \u2018F\u2019 as in family, \u2018L\u2019 as in life and then the word \u2018TODAY.\u2019<\/p>\n<p>Well, we know you\u2019ve heard us talk about Weekend to Remember\u00ae a lot, and how transformative it can be for your marriages. But really, even though we plan out so much of it, Weekend to Remember can be what you make of it. Now, whether you go with hopes to redeem your marriage, or maintain, or even just a weekend away together, the conversations between you and your spouse can change everything about your weekend and your marriage for years to come.<\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s why we\u2019re so excited to let you know that now through September 18th, registrations for the Weekend to Remember are half off. This is a chance to get together with your spouse and intentionally focus on your marriage, so don\u2019t wait. Head on over to WeekendtoRemember.com now and register for your getaway. Again, that\u2019s WeekendtoRemember.com.<\/p>\n<p>If you feel the deep need for community, discipleship, and support when dealing with your struggles, join us tomorrow as Dave and Ann Wilson talk again with Bob and Dannah Gresh to help us see that sin in marriage can\u2019t be isolated. We need community to draw it out. That\u2019s tomorrow. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<br \/>\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<br \/>\nwww.FamilyLife<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/307849","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=307849"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=307849"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=307849"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=307849"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=307849"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=307849"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=307849"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}