{"id":307717,"date":"2023-03-28T09:15:00","date_gmt":"2023-03-28T13:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/were-all-in-recovery-scott-sauls-2\/"},"modified":"2025-01-09T10:15:29","modified_gmt":"2025-01-09T15:15:29","slug":"were-all-in-recovery-scott-sauls-2","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/were-all-in-recovery-scott-sauls-2\/","title":{"rendered":"&#8220;We&#8217;re All in Recovery&#8221;: Scott Sauls"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>From his own darkness, Scott Sauls chose to share with his congregation his shame and fear\u2014and discovered we&#8217;re all in recovery. One person remarked, \u201cToday, you became my pastor. Through your story I feel like now we can relate.\u201d Beautiful people, he says, don&#8217;t just happen.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>From his own darkness, Scott Sauls chose to share his shame and fear &#8212; and discovered we&#8217;re all in recovery. Beautiful people, he says, don&#8217;t just happen.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2023-03-28.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:26:13","filesize":"48.02M","filesize_raw":"50349080","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2873,2934],"tags":[2365],"podcast_series":[8617],"cwp_profile":[3442],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307717","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-mental-and-emotional-issues","category-relationships","tag-in-recovery","podcast_series-beautiful-people-dont-just-happen-scott-sauls","cwp_profile-scott-sauls","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307717\/were-all-in-recovery-scott-sauls-2","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307717\/were-all-in-recovery-scott-sauls-2","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"cXV7IbaM2y\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/were-all-in-recovery-scott-sauls-2\/\">&#8220;We&#8217;re All in Recovery&#8221;: Scott Sauls<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/were-all-in-recovery-scott-sauls-2\/embed\/#?secret=cXV7IbaM2y\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;&#8220;We&#8217;re All in Recovery&#8221;: Scott Sauls&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"cXV7IbaM2y\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-03-28.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2023-03-28.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Scott: <\/strong>I think one of the things that\u2019s so important, especially for Christians, the question of, \u201cWhy do I want to run from suffering?\u201d Well, because you\u2019re not made to suffer; yet we live in a tragic in between time where we have to. We have to experience what is not natural to the way that we\u2019re wired and the way that we\u2019re made.\n\n[Music]\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Dave Wilson.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Ann Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>!\n\n[Music]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yesterday on our program, we had a well-known pastor and author say that he woke up in the middle of the night with a panic attack. Didn\u2019t you find it interesting that he was that honest?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I <em>loved<\/em> that.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I know!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Because a lot of times, people in positions of influence aren\u2019t always super open with their lives, and he let us in. I feel really honored. I bet our listeners do, too.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I was blown away by it because that is very rare. It shouldn\u2019t be, but it is. It\u2019s very honest and vulnerable. He\u2019s still sitting here! Scott Sauls is back in the studio. Welcome back, Scott!\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Hello!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We don\u2019t normally start a show talking about the guy who\u2019s sitting across the table from us. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> I know. It\u2019s like, \u201cAre you guys talking about me? I\u2019m right over here, guys.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> This is your sixth book, <em>Beautiful People Don\u2019t Just Happen<\/em>. You modeled it in some way. You\u2019re pastor of Christ Presbyterian in Nashville; as I said, written books, very influential. I love what you write. I love how you think. You\u2019re one of those guys I follow and want to be influenced by. But you don\u2019t often hear people in your position or not that are that honest.\n\nYour subtitle is <em>How God Redeems Regret, Hurt, and Fear in the Making of Better Humans.<\/em> We know the journey to becoming a better human God wants us to be, the beautiful person is going to be a journey we\u2019ve got to go through. We\u2019ve got to walk through those pain points we mentioned yesterday\u2014regret, hurt, and fear. But I think we hide. We don\u2019t want anybody to know we struggle with hurt or fear.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Especially, like you\u2019ve been in the pastorate for a while. You\u2019ve been a Christian for a while. So, there\u2019s a part of us that can think, \u201cI shouldn\u2019t have this at this point.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> But if we do, we don\u2019t tell anybody. It\u2019s something that\u2014\u201cI don\u2019t want to be that vulnerable.\u201d But you were. I said, \u201cOh my goodness. A lot of pastors would never say.\u201d Even if you had a panic attack for five hours last night, it would\u2019ve been a secret, and nobody\u2019s going to know. So, the journey doesn\u2019t happen because, \u201cI\u2019m going to be isolated. I\u2019m going to be quiet.\u201d Talk about that journey. Why would you voice something like that?\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> I can think of two answers in the moment. There\u2019s a personal answer and a theological one. I\u2019ll start with the personal part.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Good.\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> One of many anecdotes over the course of my life and ministry; I\u2019m at this church that I\u2019m at now, Christ Presbyterian. Probably two years into my ministry, give or take\u2014I can\u2019t remember if I write about this in the book\u2014but I\u2019m giving a message. Part of the message I decide for the first time with my church\u2014I\u2019m going to share a little bit of my story about anxiety and depression and how it\u2019s been part of my story.\n\nAt the end of that sermon, a guy comes up to me. He\u2019s this big guy, jacked, definitely worked, biceps, the all the things.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I know, I know. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Successful business leader, all the things. He\u2019s coming at me with this really intense look on his face. I\u2019m like, \u201cOh, no. He\u2019s going to start a petition to have me removed as pastor because he didn\u2019t like that.\u201d Nobody wants to be pastored by someone who\u2019s weak. He comes up, grabs me on the shoulder, kind of a close talker, which makes it even more scary. [Laughter]\n\nHe\u2019s like, \u201cI\u2019ve been sitting under your teaching now for two years. You\u2019re a gifted communicator. I just want you to know I\u2019ve never been impressed by that.\u201d He said, \u201cI want you to know that today is the day you became my pastor, because the things you shared today convinced me that you and I are the same.\u201d\n\nThen, I started thinking about my own story and what drew me into the faith and Christianity in the first place; it\u2019s that people were willing to share their stories of regret, hurt, fear, all the rest and then talk about how Jesus Christ met them in that and came alongside them in that, and gave them people to walk with them.\n\nIt opened up this whole new world to me about what living in a tragic world\u2014which we all live in a tragic world\u2014can possibly be like. It doesn\u2019t have to be Ecclesiastes; it doesn\u2019t have to be \u201ceverything\u2019s meaningless.\u201d Why even try? Because even our successes are going to be taken away one of these days.\n\nEven if we are on top of the world, we\u2019re going to be forgotten. How many of us around the table right now can say off the top of our head who the seventh US president was? Or, who\u2019s won more Grammies than anyone else? We will be forgotten. We live in a world that\u2019s tragic. But seeing people able to go through hard seasons and suffer and have hope that is authentic\u2014not fake, not contrived, but real\u2014have a vision for their future even in hard times and scary times is what drew me in.\n\nThen, there\u2019s the theological part, where\u2014Paul the apostle I\u2019m drawn to because he just gets so real. He\u2019s like, \u201cI\u2019m in jail, you guys. Rejoice in the Lord, always. Again, I will say rejoice. I\u2019m awaiting my own execution. Rejoice in the Lord always. Again, I say rejoice. No, I really mean it. Rejoice like I am right here.\u201d Philippians, the letter of joy. He\u2019s writing from the most destitute conditions.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And his honesty. \u201cI\u2019m the chief of sinners.\u201d\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> \u201cI\u2019m the chief of sinners.\u201d And then where does that lead? He says, \u201cThere\u2019s great new about that! That just shows you how great the mercy of God is and how it can reach anybody. If it can reach me, it can reach anybody.\u201d That\u2019s the follow up passage to that. He talks about how suffering produces perseverance, which produces character, which produces hope. Christians\u2014because of who Jesus is and His resurrection and all the rest\u2014we have a resource to be able to live fully in a tragic place, like one of my friends, Chip Dodd, likes to say.\n\nI\u2019ve been in this Christianity thing long enough to realize that I probably wouldn\u2019t have made it this far, at least not as a person who is mostly happy and joyful even during hard seasons, without Christ. Christ changes everything.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I love this quote; it goes along with what you\u2019re saying. You said, \u201cBeautiful people don\u2019t just happen, but when they do happen, even a wheelchair can become a pulpit; a chemo room a place of worship; chronic pain a path to holiness; burial dirt a plot of resurrection soil; and death a festival on the road of freedom.\u201d\n\nI think you\u2019re open because this is the world we live in; it\u2019s broken, it\u2019s hard, and yet\u2014and yet <em>Jesus<\/em> and the Gospel. He gives us hope<em> and<\/em> freedom in the midst of the pain and suffering.\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> That last phrase, \u201cDeath is a festival on the road to freedom,\u201d was from Dietrich Bonhoeffer in his letters from prison as he was awaiting his execution for opposing Hitler. So, that was the place where those words were first written.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wow.\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Which I guess again is another example. One of the chapters I talk about banana bread, which is my favorite bread. You get to call it bread even though it\u2019s cake. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t know where you were going. When I picked up that chapter, I was like, \u201cWhere is he going with banana bread?\u201d\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Yes, banana bread\u2014so, I tied it to Romans 8:28, which generally speaking, we want to be careful about quoting it to somebody who\u2019s going through a hard time. But it\u2019s always good to quote it to ourselves when we need what it says, and that\u2019s that God works all things\u2014and all means all\u2014\"He works all things together for good for those who love Him, and who are called according to His purpose.\u201d\n\nThat word \u201ctogether\u201d brought to mind the idea of a recipe for me. If we all see life\u2019s circumstances as the recipe that God is putting together in order to shape us and makes us and mold us and build us into the people He\u2019s made us to be\u2014my thoughts went to banana bread because a lot of the recipe of our lives include rotten things and rotten seasons and rotten this and rotten that.\n\nFor banana bread to be amazing, the most important ingredient is a rotten banana, [Laughter] not a banana, but a rotten one. You know\u2014they grow brown and soggy and gross.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I did not know that!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, yeah.\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Think about some other things you wouldn\u2019t eat by themselves, like the salt. Terrible, if you eat it by itself. Or flour would stick to your\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Baking soda!\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Baking soda. And all that oil. Who wants to swallow that? But you put it all together\u2014there\u2019s that word again; \u201cGod works all things together;\u201d a good chef, a good baker, works all things together\u2014for good. What ultimately comes out after you put it in the heat\u2014it becomes this amazing thing. Not in spite of the rotten component, but mysteriously because of it.\n\nThis goes back to the Elizabeth Kubler-Ross quote that we talked about in the previous episode where she talked about \u201cbeautiful people don\u2019t just happen.\u201d Another way to summarize what she says leading up to that is you\u2019ve got to have some rotten ingredients in your life to be developed into a tender, humble, beatitude Matthew 5, \u201cBlessed are the meek; blessed are the poor in spirit,\u201d all the rest. You have to go through the valleys in order to scale the mountain. I love that metaphor.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Me, too!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I hear you say that, and I agree one thousand percent\u2014I still have something within me that runs from adversity.\n\nI\u2019d love to talk about your second word. We talked a little bit yesterday and today about regret\/hurt. A lot of different ways you could describe that. I know you\u2019re talking a little bit about emotional. You even said yesterday, I\u2019d never heard that quote about the older you get, the more you feel things you\u2019ve always felt. I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve felt hurt as deeply as I have, in my life, as I have in the last three, four, five years\u2014for various reasons. But man, oh man! It\u2019s been hurtful\u2014things that have happened, people, things done. I know we\u2019ve all experienced that.\n\nThere\u2019s a part of me that wants to run from that\u2014it\u2019s almost like, \u201cOh, just brush it away,\u201d rather than engage in it and say, \u201cOk, God. What are You doing in this, and how is this going to make me a beautiful person?\u201d Walk us through some of the hurt discussion. My wife\u2019s looking at me right now like, \u201cWhat? You\u2019ve been hurt?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> No, it\u2019s funny you were saying that. I thought, \u201cYou\u2019ve had so much hurt in your life.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, when I was a kid.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> But it\u2019s interesting\u2014it makes me tear up. It\u2019s interesting to watch you get older because you\u2019ve become so much softer. You\u2019re more beautiful than you\u2019ve ever been because you\u2019ve experienced it, and you\u2019ve talked about it. You used to run away from it so quickly and not even want to engage in it. It\u2019s made you so much more <em>beautiful<\/em>. I feel more attracted to you than I\u2019ve ever been, and I think part of it is that you\u2019ve been willing to talk about it and engage in your pain; whereas, before, you would just not. You wouldn\u2019t want to talk about it.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I wanted to escape. I wanted to just run from it.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know what our original question was.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I don\u2019t either!\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Your question was\u2014I run from pain. I would say, \u201cWhy wouldn\u2019t you?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Why wouldn\u2019t anyone?\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> You\u2019re created in the image of God. You came from a perfect world\u2014the garden of Eden. You\u2019re going to a perfect world\u2014the new heaven and the new earth. You\u2019re made for another world. You\u2019re not created for a world that\u2019s filled with suffering and sorrow and pain and death and guilt and all the rest.\n\nThe image comes to mind of Jesus at the tomb of Lazarus where He wept, which is a signal that He didn\u2019t like it. Sometimes I don\u2019t understand our English translations. Like in Ephesians, most of our English translations say, \u201cIn your anger, do not sin,\u201d but it literally says in the original language, \u201c<em>Be<\/em> angry, and sin not.\u201d\n\nIn the same way, most of our English translations say, \u201cJesus was deeply moved in spirit,\u201d but what it really says is, \u201cHe was <em>infuriated<\/em> with death.\u201d I think there\u2019s something about us that\u2019s uncomfortable with the thought of Jesus. Maybe that\u2019s why He also gave us the flipping tables scenario, like, \u201cI broke stuff in church without sin.\u201d There\u2019s something in there.\n\nI think one of the things that\u2019s so important, especially for Christians, is to remember that we are fully created in the image of God, which includes our emotional composition. We live in a part of the world that tells us to run <em>from<\/em> our emotions instead of feeling them. \u201cYou\u2019re too emotional.\u201d \u201cStop crying like a baby!\u201d Who said it was bad to act like a baby? [Laughter] Didn\u2019t Jesus say unless you learn to process all your life like a little child, you\u2019ll never see the kingdom of Heaven? Where did we get this crazy idea that we should try to not be like little children?\n\nWhat\u2019s amazing to me, though, Dave\u2014I think this gets to the question of \u201cWhy do I want to run from suffering?\u201d\u2014because you\u2019re not made to suffer. Yet, we live in a tragic in between time where we have to. We have to experience what is not natural to the way that we\u2019re wired and the way that we\u2019re made.\n\nBut isn\u2019t it a beautiful thing that God, He gives us\u2014and this is again Chip Dodd, who I quoted earlier in this, or yesterday\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, right.\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> He says there are basically eight core human emotions. There\u2019s gladness, then there\u2019s sadness, guilt, shame, fear, hurt, loneliness. Then one more\u2014that\u2019s also a distressed emotion. So, we have seven painful emotions and one glad one. You look at that and think, \u201cThat stinks.\u201d [Laughter] But at the same time, think about how God has wired us with seven different ways to respond to a world that we weren\u2019t made for in order to equip us to respond to all the things we\u2019re not meant to have in our lives.\n\nMy imagination just goes there\u2014this isn\u2019t in the Bible or anything\u2014but my imagination goes there\u2014what will our emotional makeup be when suffering is out of the picture? What will the redeemed emotional life look like? We know it won\u2019t have any of the sorrowful stuff. Will it just be gladness? Or will it be all these other emotions we haven\u2019t even gotten to experience yet because God decided to give us one in order to signify that we\u2019re going somewhere. Like CS Lewis says, \u201cWe\u2019re made for another world,\u201d\u00a0 which is why we never feel at home in this one.\n\nI don\u2019t know. But the short answer is, we should hate suffering. We should welcome what it accomplishes as we submit to it. We can become cynical and grumpy and bitter. That\u2019s one route. Or, if we go the route God wants to take us down, we can become more thankful, more joyful, more able to be compassionate. The whole secret to the recovery movement\u2014you\u2019ve got non-Christians getting better faster than Christians are because they do the Gospel better than most Christians do.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What do you mean by that?\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> I talk in the book about the difference between the church basement and the sanctuary. The church basement is where the recovery groups meet; where they just get raw, honest with each other; they do it in community. The one thing that brings them all together is they share a common addiction and a common hope of getting better. Ideally, you\u2019ve got God in that picture as well to give you the power and the sustaining ability to get well and stay well, all the rest. They give you sponsors, mentors to get you through it.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s a discipleship program!\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> It is, functionally, yes. Then, you go in the sanctuary, and you\u2019ve got all these people\u2026. Let\u2019s say the basement\u2019s filled with people who don\u2019t believe in Jesus; yet, they\u2019re getting better. \u201cI\u2019ve got my coin for five years of sobriety,\u201d or whatever. Then, up here, you\u2019ve got all these people who believe the Bible and affirm all the truths. Yet, there\u2019s this pretentious, performative \u201cI have to look a certain way; I have to be perceived a certain way.\u201d \u201cIf my children are messy they\u2019ll be perceived a certain way, that\u2019s going to bring shame on our family, and it\u2019s going to make us not look good. If people really saw how hard our marriage is, if people knew we were fighting all the way to church, and we don\u2019t really like each other right now! Hide that, hide that, hide that!\u201d [Laughter] Meanwhile, Jesus is sitting in the corner with His arms folded, just kind of looking at us going, \u201cY\u2019all just don\u2019t know what you\u2019re missing.\u201d\n\nTim Keller says, \u201cThe hardest thing to give is - in.\u201d If you could just give in, and give up on this masquerade, this window dressing that you\u2019re trying to\u2014this highlight reel you\u2019re trying to present to the rest of the world as you hide the very things that are the pathway to your redemption.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s so interesting. I remember going to a women\u2019s retreat, and I go to the cabin because it\u2019s a weekend retreat. I get there, and I\u2019m the pastor\u2019s wife. They\u2019re like, \u201cOh no, Ann. I don\u2019t know if you want to be in our cabin.\u201d They said, \u201cWe are all in recovery together. I said, \u201cYes! Yes! These are the groups that always go the deepest\u2014like this is who we are. This is what we\u2019ve done.\u201d So honest. So beautiful. As a result, it makes everyone around them be so real and open.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I used to love when the head of our Celebrate Recovery or Divorce Recovery would ask me to come in and give a\u2014usually once or twice a year\u2014to the group. At first I was like, \u201cUgh. Do I want to?\u201d Then after I did it a few times, I\u2019m like\u2014what you said\u2014\u201cThese are the most honest people in our church.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> They\u2019re honest! You walk in there, there\u2019s like nothing hidden. They\u2019re like, \u201cWe messed up, and we\u2019re sharing that with one another, and we\u2019re finding hope.\u201d I\u2019ll close with this, Scott. When we started, we talked about you sharing your struggle with anxiety in your sermon. I thought\u2014and you know this\u2014but what you did is you brought the church basement up into the sanctuary.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You created\u2014I mean, I\u2019ve never been to your church. I\u2019ve watched you; I\u2019ve heard you. I\u2019ve never been in your culture, but I know your culture. And I know people feel like, \u201cI can bring my stuff here because the lead guy is like us with Jesus.\u201d\n\n[Music]\n\n<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> You\u2019re listening to Dave and Ann Wilson to Scott Sauls on <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em> Dave\u2019s got a story that you\u2019re going to want to hear about the power of bringing our sin into the light. That\u2019s going to be in just a second.\n\nBut first, Scott has written a book called <em>Beautiful People Don\u2019t Just Happen, How God Redeems Regret, Hurt, and Fear in the Making of Better Humans. <\/em>Wow! What a title! We want to give you a copy of this book as our thanks when you give all week. You can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329. That can be a one-time gift or a recurring monthly gift. Again, the number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nAs Scott says, beautiful people don\u2019t just happen, and beautiful marriages don\u2019t just happen either. What if I told you that the foundation of your marriage wasn\u2019t all on you to figure out? That would be kind of a relief, right? God has laid it out completely, but sometimes we don\u2019t know how to give our marriages the attention they deserve. Why don\u2019t you take three days and let your focus be on each other?\n\nFamilyLife\u2019s Weekend to Remember<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> getaway is happening all over the country. If you register this week, you and your spouse can get 40% off this event. If you want to find out more, you can head over to FamilyLifeToday.com, scroll down, and click on the Weekend to Remember link to register and find out more information.\n\nHere\u2019s Dave Wilson on the power of bringing our sin into the light, as scary as that might be.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I remember the first time\u2014we were a year old, our church, and I shared in a message my struggle with porn. This is way back even before there was a digital thing. My co-founder, Buddy, hadn\u2019t even walked off the stage, and he just, he walks up to me\u2014I didn\u2019t tell him I was going to do this; I just did\u2014he said to me, \u201cYou just changed this church.\u201d I go, \u201cAm I in trouble?\u201d He said, \u201cNo. I think we just said who we were going to be\u2014a community where we can be honest, but Jesus is going to meet you there.\u201d\n\nI would just say we all need to have the courage that you had that day. I know you\u2019ve done it many times since\u2014to say, \u201cI\u2019m not going to hide. I\u2019m going to step into my regret, my hurt, my fear. I\u2019m going to share that in a community with people that will walk with me, and that\u2019s going to take me to become a beautiful person.\u201d\n\n<strong>Shelby: <\/strong>Have you ever heard of the term \u201chelicopter parent\u201d? I think you probably have. That\u2019s the parent who kind of hovers over their kids and doesn\u2019t let them do anything that might be dangerous at all. There are a lot of helicopter parents out there, but maybe that helicopter parent could be\u2014you!\n\nTomorrow Dave and Ann are joined again by Scott Sauls to talk about how it\u2019s actually healthy to let our kids fail. That\u2019s coming up tomorrow. We hope you\u2019ll join us.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nOn behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.\n\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. 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his own darkness, Scott Sauls chose to share his shame and fear -- and discovered we're all in recovery. Beautiful people, he says, don't just happen.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-03-28.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Scott: <\/strong>I think one of the things that\u2019s so important, especially for Christians, the question of, \u201cWhy do I want to run from suffering?\u201d Well, because you\u2019re not made to suffer; yet we live in a tragic in between time where we have to. We have to experience what is not natural to the way that we\u2019re wired and the way that we\u2019re made.\n\n[Music]\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Dave Wilson.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Ann Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>!\n\n[Music]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yesterday on our program, we had a well-known pastor and author say that he woke up in the middle of the night with a panic attack. Didn\u2019t you find it interesting that he was that honest?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I <em>loved<\/em> that.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I know!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Because a lot of times, people in positions of influence aren\u2019t always super open with their lives, and he let us in. I feel really honored. I bet our listeners do, too.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I was blown away by it because that is very rare. It shouldn\u2019t be, but it is. It\u2019s very honest and vulnerable. He\u2019s still sitting here! Scott Sauls is back in the studio. Welcome back, Scott!\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Hello!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We don\u2019t normally start a show talking about the guy who\u2019s sitting across the table from us. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> I know. It\u2019s like, \u201cAre you guys talking about me? I\u2019m right over here, guys.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> This is your sixth book, <em>Beautiful People Don\u2019t Just Happen<\/em>. You modeled it in some way. You\u2019re pastor of Christ Presbyterian in Nashville; as I said, written books, very influential. I love what you write. I love how you think. You\u2019re one of those guys I follow and want to be influenced by. But you don\u2019t often hear people in your position or not that are that honest.\n\nYour subtitle is <em>How God Redeems Regret, Hurt, and Fear in the Making of Better Humans.<\/em> We know the journey to becoming a better human God wants us to be, the beautiful person is going to be a journey we\u2019ve got to go through. We\u2019ve got to walk through those pain points we mentioned yesterday\u2014regret, hurt, and fear. But I think we hide. We don\u2019t want anybody to know we struggle with hurt or fear.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Especially, like you\u2019ve been in the pastorate for a while. You\u2019ve been a Christian for a while. So, there\u2019s a part of us that can think, \u201cI shouldn\u2019t have this at this point.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> But if we do, we don\u2019t tell anybody. It\u2019s something that\u2014\u201cI don\u2019t want to be that vulnerable.\u201d But you were. I said, \u201cOh my goodness. A lot of pastors would never say.\u201d Even if you had a panic attack for five hours last night, it would\u2019ve been a secret, and nobody\u2019s going to know. So, the journey doesn\u2019t happen because, \u201cI\u2019m going to be isolated. I\u2019m going to be quiet.\u201d Talk about that journey. Why would you voice something like that?\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> I can think of two answers in the moment. There\u2019s a personal answer and a theological one. I\u2019ll start with the personal part.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Good.\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> One of many anecdotes over the course of my life and ministry; I\u2019m at this church that I\u2019m at now, Christ Presbyterian. Probably two years into my ministry, give or take\u2014I can\u2019t remember if I write about this in the book\u2014but I\u2019m giving a message. Part of the message I decide for the first time with my church\u2014I\u2019m going to share a little bit of my story about anxiety and depression and how it\u2019s been part of my story.\n\nAt the end of that sermon, a guy comes up to me. He\u2019s this big guy, jacked, definitely worked, biceps, the all the things.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I know, I know. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Successful business leader, all the things. He\u2019s coming at me with this really intense look on his face. I\u2019m like, \u201cOh, no. He\u2019s going to start a petition to have me removed as pastor because he didn\u2019t like that.\u201d Nobody wants to be pastored by someone who\u2019s weak. He comes up, grabs me on the shoulder, kind of a close talker, which makes it even more scary. [Laughter]\n\nHe\u2019s like, \u201cI\u2019ve been sitting under your teaching now for two years. You\u2019re a gifted communicator. I just want you to know I\u2019ve never been impressed by that.\u201d He said, \u201cI want you to know that today is the day you became my pastor, because the things you shared today convinced me that you and I are the same.\u201d\n\nThen, I started thinking about my own story and what drew me into the faith and Christianity in the first place; it\u2019s that people were willing to share their stories of regret, hurt, fear, all the rest and then talk about how Jesus Christ met them in that and came alongside them in that, and gave them people to walk with them.\n\nIt opened up this whole new world to me about what living in a tragic world\u2014which we all live in a tragic world\u2014can possibly be like. It doesn\u2019t have to be Ecclesiastes; it doesn\u2019t have to be \u201ceverything\u2019s meaningless.\u201d Why even try? Because even our successes are going to be taken away one of these days.\n\nEven if we are on top of the world, we\u2019re going to be forgotten. How many of us around the table right now can say off the top of our head who the seventh US president was? Or, who\u2019s won more Grammies than anyone else? We will be forgotten. We live in a world that\u2019s tragic. But seeing people able to go through hard seasons and suffer and have hope that is authentic\u2014not fake, not contrived, but real\u2014have a vision for their future even in hard times and scary times is what drew me in.\n\nThen, there\u2019s the theological part, where\u2014Paul the apostle I\u2019m drawn to because he just gets so real. He\u2019s like, \u201cI\u2019m in jail, you guys. Rejoice in the Lord, always. Again, I will say rejoice. I\u2019m awaiting my own execution. Rejoice in the Lord always. Again, I say rejoice. No, I really mean it. Rejoice like I am right here.\u201d Philippians, the letter of joy. He\u2019s writing from the most destitute conditions.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And his honesty. \u201cI\u2019m the chief of sinners.\u201d\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> \u201cI\u2019m the chief of sinners.\u201d And then where does that lead? He says, \u201cThere\u2019s great new about that! That just shows you how great the mercy of God is and how it can reach anybody. If it can reach me, it can reach anybody.\u201d That\u2019s the follow up passage to that. He talks about how suffering produces perseverance, which produces character, which produces hope. Christians\u2014because of who Jesus is and His resurrection and all the rest\u2014we have a resource to be able to live fully in a tragic place, like one of my friends, Chip Dodd, likes to say.\n\nI\u2019ve been in this Christianity thing long enough to realize that I probably wouldn\u2019t have made it this far, at least not as a person who is mostly happy and joyful even during hard seasons, without Christ. Christ changes everything.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I love this quote; it goes along with what you\u2019re saying. You said, \u201cBeautiful people don\u2019t just happen, but when they do happen, even a wheelchair can become a pulpit; a chemo room a place of worship; chronic pain a path to holiness; burial dirt a plot of resurrection soil; and death a festival on the road of freedom.\u201d\n\nI think you\u2019re open because this is the world we live in; it\u2019s broken, it\u2019s hard, and yet\u2014and yet <em>Jesus<\/em> and the Gospel. He gives us hope<em> and<\/em> freedom in the midst of the pain and suffering.\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> That last phrase, \u201cDeath is a festival on the road to freedom,\u201d was from Dietrich Bonhoeffer in his letters from prison as he was awaiting his execution for opposing Hitler. So, that was the place where those words were first written.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wow.\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Which I guess again is another example. One of the chapters I talk about banana bread, which is my favorite bread. You get to call it bread even though it\u2019s cake. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t know where you were going. When I picked up that chapter, I was like, \u201cWhere is he going with banana bread?\u201d\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Yes, banana bread\u2014so, I tied it to Romans 8:28, which generally speaking, we want to be careful about quoting it to somebody who\u2019s going through a hard time. But it\u2019s always good to quote it to ourselves when we need what it says, and that\u2019s that God works all things\u2014and all means all\u2014\"He works all things together for good for those who love Him, and who are called according to His purpose.\u201d\n\nThat word \u201ctogether\u201d brought to mind the idea of a recipe for me. If we all see life\u2019s circumstances as the recipe that God is putting together in order to shape us and makes us and mold us and build us into the people He\u2019s made us to be\u2014my thoughts went to banana bread because a lot of the recipe of our lives include rotten things and rotten seasons and rotten this and rotten that.\n\nFor banana bread to be amazing, the most important ingredient is a rotten banana, [Laughter] not a banana, but a rotten one. You know\u2014they grow brown and soggy and gross.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I did not know that!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, yeah.\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Think about some other things you wouldn\u2019t eat by themselves, like the salt. Terrible, if you eat it by itself. Or flour would stick to your\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Baking soda!\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Baking soda. And all that oil. Who wants to swallow that? But you put it all together\u2014there\u2019s that word again; \u201cGod works all things together;\u201d a good chef, a good baker, works all things together\u2014for good. What ultimately comes out after you put it in the heat\u2014it becomes this amazing thing. Not in spite of the rotten component, but mysteriously because of it.\n\nThis goes back to the Elizabeth Kubler-Ross quote that we talked about in the previous episode where she talked about \u201cbeautiful people don\u2019t just happen.\u201d Another way to summarize what she says leading up to that is you\u2019ve got to have some rotten ingredients in your life to be developed into a tender, humble, beatitude Matthew 5, \u201cBlessed are the meek; blessed are the poor in spirit,\u201d all the rest. You have to go through the valleys in order to scale the mountain. I love that metaphor.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Me, too!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I hear you say that, and I agree one thousand percent\u2014I still have something within me that runs from adversity.\n\nI\u2019d love to talk about your second word. We talked a little bit yesterday and today about regret\/hurt. A lot of different ways you could describe that. I know you\u2019re talking a little bit about emotional. You even said yesterday, I\u2019d never heard that quote about the older you get, the more you feel things you\u2019ve always felt. I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve felt hurt as deeply as I have, in my life, as I have in the last three, four, five years\u2014for various reasons. But man, oh man! It\u2019s been hurtful\u2014things that have happened, people, things done. I know we\u2019ve all experienced that.\n\nThere\u2019s a part of me that wants to run from that\u2014it\u2019s almost like, \u201cOh, just brush it away,\u201d rather than engage in it and say, \u201cOk, God. What are You doing in this, and how is this going to make me a beautiful person?\u201d Walk us through some of the hurt discussion. My wife\u2019s looking at me right now like, \u201cWhat? You\u2019ve been hurt?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> No, it\u2019s funny you were saying that. I thought, \u201cYou\u2019ve had so much hurt in your life.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, when I was a kid.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> But it\u2019s interesting\u2014it makes me tear up. It\u2019s interesting to watch you get older because you\u2019ve become so much softer. You\u2019re more beautiful than you\u2019ve ever been because you\u2019ve experienced it, and you\u2019ve talked about it. You used to run away from it so quickly and not even want to engage in it. It\u2019s made you so much more <em>beautiful<\/em>. I feel more attracted to you than I\u2019ve ever been, and I think part of it is that you\u2019ve been willing to talk about it and engage in your pain; whereas, before, you would just not. You wouldn\u2019t want to talk about it.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I wanted to escape. I wanted to just run from it.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know what our original question was.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I don\u2019t either!\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Your question was\u2014I run from pain. I would say, \u201cWhy wouldn\u2019t you?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Why wouldn\u2019t anyone?\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> You\u2019re created in the image of God. You came from a perfect world\u2014the garden of Eden. You\u2019re going to a perfect world\u2014the new heaven and the new earth. You\u2019re made for another world. You\u2019re not created for a world that\u2019s filled with suffering and sorrow and pain and death and guilt and all the rest.\n\nThe image comes to mind of Jesus at the tomb of Lazarus where He wept, which is a signal that He didn\u2019t like it. Sometimes I don\u2019t understand our English translations. Like in Ephesians, most of our English translations say, \u201cIn your anger, do not sin,\u201d but it literally says in the original language, \u201c<em>Be<\/em> angry, and sin not.\u201d\n\nIn the same way, most of our English translations say, \u201cJesus was deeply moved in spirit,\u201d but what it really says is, \u201cHe was <em>infuriated<\/em> with death.\u201d I think there\u2019s something about us that\u2019s uncomfortable with the thought of Jesus. Maybe that\u2019s why He also gave us the flipping tables scenario, like, \u201cI broke stuff in church without sin.\u201d There\u2019s something in there.\n\nI think one of the things that\u2019s so important, especially for Christians, is to remember that we are fully created in the image of God, which includes our emotional composition. We live in a part of the world that tells us to run <em>from<\/em> our emotions instead of feeling them. \u201cYou\u2019re too emotional.\u201d \u201cStop crying like a baby!\u201d Who said it was bad to act like a baby? [Laughter] Didn\u2019t Jesus say unless you learn to process all your life like a little child, you\u2019ll never see the kingdom of Heaven? Where did we get this crazy idea that we should try to not be like little children?\n\nWhat\u2019s amazing to me, though, Dave\u2014I think this gets to the question of \u201cWhy do I want to run from suffering?\u201d\u2014because you\u2019re not made to suffer. Yet, we live in a tragic in between time where we have to. We have to experience what is not natural to the way that we\u2019re wired and the way that we\u2019re made.\n\nBut isn\u2019t it a beautiful thing that God, He gives us\u2014and this is again Chip Dodd, who I quoted earlier in this, or yesterday\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, right.\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> He says there are basically eight core human emotions. There\u2019s gladness, then there\u2019s sadness, guilt, shame, fear, hurt, loneliness. Then one more\u2014that\u2019s also a distressed emotion. So, we have seven painful emotions and one glad one. You look at that and think, \u201cThat stinks.\u201d [Laughter] But at the same time, think about how God has wired us with seven different ways to respond to a world that we weren\u2019t made for in order to equip us to respond to all the things we\u2019re not meant to have in our lives.\n\nMy imagination just goes there\u2014this isn\u2019t in the Bible or anything\u2014but my imagination goes there\u2014what will our emotional makeup be when suffering is out of the picture? What will the redeemed emotional life look like? We know it won\u2019t have any of the sorrowful stuff. Will it just be gladness? Or will it be all these other emotions we haven\u2019t even gotten to experience yet because God decided to give us one in order to signify that we\u2019re going somewhere. Like CS Lewis says, \u201cWe\u2019re made for another world,\u201d\u00a0 which is why we never feel at home in this one.\n\nI don\u2019t know. But the short answer is, we should hate suffering. We should welcome what it accomplishes as we submit to it. We can become cynical and grumpy and bitter. That\u2019s one route. Or, if we go the route God wants to take us down, we can become more thankful, more joyful, more able to be compassionate. The whole secret to the recovery movement\u2014you\u2019ve got non-Christians getting better faster than Christians are because they do the Gospel better than most Christians do.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What do you mean by that?\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> I talk in the book about the difference between the church basement and the sanctuary. The church basement is where the recovery groups meet; where they just get raw, honest with each other; they do it in community. The one thing that brings them all together is they share a common addiction and a common hope of getting better. Ideally, you\u2019ve got God in that picture as well to give you the power and the sustaining ability to get well and stay well, all the rest. They give you sponsors, mentors to get you through it.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s a discipleship program!\n\n<strong>Scott:<\/strong> It is, functionally, yes. Then, you go in the sanctuary, and you\u2019ve got all these people\u2026. Let\u2019s say the basement\u2019s filled with people who don\u2019t believe in Jesus; yet, they\u2019re getting better. \u201cI\u2019ve got my coin for five years of sobriety,\u201d or whatever. Then, up here, you\u2019ve got all these people who believe the Bible and affirm all the truths. Yet, there\u2019s this pretentious, performative \u201cI have to look a certain way; I have to be perceived a certain way.\u201d \u201cIf my children are messy they\u2019ll be perceived a certain way, that\u2019s going to bring shame on our family, and it\u2019s going to make us not look good. If people really saw how hard our marriage is, if people knew we were fighting all the way to church, and we don\u2019t really like each other right now! Hide that, hide that, hide that!\u201d [Laughter] Meanwhile, Jesus is sitting in the corner with His arms folded, just kind of looking at us going, \u201cY\u2019all just don\u2019t know what you\u2019re missing.\u201d\n\nTim Keller says, \u201cThe hardest thing to give is - in.\u201d If you could just give in, and give up on this masquerade, this window dressing that you\u2019re trying to\u2014this highlight reel you\u2019re trying to present to the rest of the world as you hide the very things that are the pathway to your redemption.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s so interesting. I remember going to a women\u2019s retreat, and I go to the cabin because it\u2019s a weekend retreat. I get there, and I\u2019m the pastor\u2019s wife. They\u2019re like, \u201cOh no, Ann. I don\u2019t know if you want to be in our cabin.\u201d They said, \u201cWe are all in recovery together. I said, \u201cYes! Yes! These are the groups that always go the deepest\u2014like this is who we are. This is what we\u2019ve done.\u201d So honest. So beautiful. As a result, it makes everyone around them be so real and open.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I used to love when the head of our Celebrate Recovery or Divorce Recovery would ask me to come in and give a\u2014usually once or twice a year\u2014to the group. At first I was like, \u201cUgh. Do I want to?\u201d Then after I did it a few times, I\u2019m like\u2014what you said\u2014\u201cThese are the most honest people in our church.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> They\u2019re honest! You walk in there, there\u2019s like nothing hidden. They\u2019re like, \u201cWe messed up, and we\u2019re sharing that with one another, and we\u2019re finding hope.\u201d I\u2019ll close with this, Scott. When we started, we talked about you sharing your struggle with anxiety in your sermon. I thought\u2014and you know this\u2014but what you did is you brought the church basement up into the sanctuary.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You created\u2014I mean, I\u2019ve never been to your church. I\u2019ve watched you; I\u2019ve heard you. I\u2019ve never been in your culture, but I know your culture. And I know people feel like, \u201cI can bring my stuff here because the lead guy is like us with Jesus.\u201d\n\n[Music]\n\n<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> You\u2019re listening to Dave and Ann Wilson to Scott Sauls on <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em> Dave\u2019s got a story that you\u2019re going to want to hear about the power of bringing our sin into the light. That\u2019s going to be in just a second.\n\nBut first, Scott has written a book called <em>Beautiful People Don\u2019t Just Happen, How God Redeems Regret, Hurt, and Fear in the Making of Better Humans. <\/em>Wow! What a title! We want to give you a copy of this book as our thanks when you give all week. You can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329. That can be a one-time gift or a recurring monthly gift. Again, the number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nAs Scott says, beautiful people don\u2019t just happen, and beautiful marriages don\u2019t just happen either. What if I told you that the foundation of your marriage wasn\u2019t all on you to figure out? That would be kind of a relief, right? God has laid it out completely, but sometimes we don\u2019t know how to give our marriages the attention they deserve. Why don\u2019t you take three days and let your focus be on each other?\n\nFamilyLife\u2019s Weekend to Remember<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> getaway is happening all over the country. If you register this week, you and your spouse can get 40% off this event. If you want to find out more, you can head over to FamilyLifeToday.com, scroll down, and click on the Weekend to Remember link to register and find out more information.\n\nHere\u2019s Dave Wilson on the power of bringing our sin into the light, as scary as that might be.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I remember the first time\u2014we were a year old, our church, and I shared in a message my struggle with porn. This is way back even before there was a digital thing. My co-founder, Buddy, hadn\u2019t even walked off the stage, and he just, he walks up to me\u2014I didn\u2019t tell him I was going to do this; I just did\u2014he said to me, \u201cYou just changed this church.\u201d I go, \u201cAm I in trouble?\u201d He said, \u201cNo. I think we just said who we were going to be\u2014a community where we can be honest, but Jesus is going to meet you there.\u201d\n\nI would just say we all need to have the courage that you had that day. I know you\u2019ve done it many times since\u2014to say, \u201cI\u2019m not going to hide. I\u2019m going to step into my regret, my hurt, my fear. I\u2019m going to share that in a community with people that will walk with me, and that\u2019s going to take me to become a beautiful person.\u201d\n\n<strong>Shelby: <\/strong>Have you ever heard of the term \u201chelicopter parent\u201d? I think you probably have. That\u2019s the parent who kind of hovers over their kids and doesn\u2019t let them do anything that might be dangerous at all. There are a lot of helicopter parents out there, but maybe that helicopter parent could be\u2014you!\n\nTomorrow Dave and Ann are joined again by Scott Sauls to talk about how it\u2019s actually healthy to let our kids fail. That\u2019s coming up tomorrow. We hope you\u2019ll join us.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nOn behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.\n\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. 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