{"id":307492,"date":"2022-04-27T08:02:12","date_gmt":"2022-04-27T12:02:12","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/erik-reed-where-is-god-when-it-hurts\/"},"modified":"2025-05-13T17:33:02","modified_gmt":"2025-05-13T21:33:02","slug":"erik-reed-where-is-god-when-it-hurts","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/erik-reed-where-is-god-when-it-hurts\/","title":{"rendered":"Erik Reed: Where is God When it Hurts?"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Where is God when it hurts? Author Erik Reed reflects on his intimate experience of God amidst his son&#8217;s suffering &#8212; and learning to trust God in the hard.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Where is God when it hurts? Author Erik Reed reflects on his intimate experience of God amidst his son&#8217;s suffering &#8212; and learning to trust God in the hard.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2022-04-27.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"23.04M","filesize_raw":"24161685","date_recorded":"2022-04-27 08:02:12","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2853,2822,2845,2879],"tags":[7082],"podcast_series":[8519],"cwp_profile":[9769],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307492","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-frazzled-family","category-growing-in-your-faith","category-loss-of-a-child-life-issues","category-loss-of-a-child","tag-erik-reed","podcast_series-uncommon-trust","cwp_profile-erik-reed","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307492\/erik-reed-where-is-god-when-it-hurts","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307492\/erik-reed-where-is-god-when-it-hurts","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"w5FJwJ9cfh\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/erik-reed-where-is-god-when-it-hurts\/\">Erik Reed: Where is God When it Hurts?<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/erik-reed-where-is-god-when-it-hurts\/embed\/#?secret=w5FJwJ9cfh\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Erik Reed: Where is God When it Hurts?&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"w5FJwJ9cfh\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2022-04-27.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2022-04-27.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> To trust the Lord\/to trust anything is to put full confidence and dependence on that thing. The Hebrew verb there, \u201cto trust,\u201d is actually imaged by somebody lying face down on the ground with their back exposed. You\u2019re in your most vulnerable position; you\u2019re <em>trusting<\/em> whoever\u2019s in the presence of you to not harm you\/to not take advantage of you. You\u2019re fully exposed.<\/p>\n<p>This idea of <em>trusting<\/em> God with all your heart\u2014every fiber of your being; nothing held back and <em>not<\/em> lean on your own understanding\u2014that\u2019s the contrast. The way that we learn to trust God is we <em>have to know Him<\/em>; we come to know Him through His Word. It\u2019s not our opinions of God that matter; it\u2019s: \u201cWho is God?\u201d \u201cHow has He revealed Himself?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019ve often preached\u2014see if you can finish\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, you\u2019ve preached a lot.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, I was just wondering if you can finish this sermon theme. Sitting there in the front row\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I do listen; I just don\u2019t always remember.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I know; and I know you\u2019re going to be able to finish this. I\u2019ve often said that: \u201cIt\u2019s not the size of your faith that matters; it\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cthe size of your God.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, and so\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wait; do I get an A?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, you did; way to go!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Woo! Ding, ding, ding!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Give me five! [Laughter] I mean, I didn\u2019t know if you listened; but you heard it multiple\/probably hundreds of times\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014hundreds of times.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014in 30 years.<\/p>\n<p>But often, we think, \u201cI need greater faith.\u201d Jesus is the One who said, \u201cNo, you just need mustard seed-sized faith\/small faith.\u201d But if that faith is in a God you don\u2019t know or you can\u2019t trust, it doesn\u2019t matter what size your faith; it\u2019s really the size of your God or the understanding of who He is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s really important because, when we go through hard or tragic times, or even times we just can\u2019t make sense of it\u2014and we can\u2019t understand how God would allow this to happen or allow us to walk this path\u2014that\u2019s when we go back to that and think, \u201cIs that real? Is it true?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s when we find out: \u201cWhat kind of God do we believe in?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> We have Erik Reed back with us: a pastor, a dad, a husband. Man, we\u2019ve had\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014author.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014a couple of days with you, talking about your book, <em>Uncommon Trust: Learning to Trust God When Life Doesn\u2019t Make Sense<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>First of all, welcome back to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Thank you; thank you. I\u2019ve enjoyed being with you guys.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know if we can catch our listeners up from our last two broadcasts.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I just said this though\/I just told Erik: \u201cI don\u2019t think I\u2019ve cried through an <em>entire<\/em> two days of interviewing as I have lately. But this story is so compelling\/hard; and yet, it really does make us put our eyes back on Jesus.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, so I\u2019ll try to give a quick synopsis. Erik, you can really jump in.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s really a story of a dad and a mom, who have their first born son, and have a totally unexpected outcome\u2014he\u2019s going to need medical help his whole life\u2014ends up needing a kidney transplant at almost two years of age.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; go ahead and tell us, in one minute or less, recap.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> You were on track: a good kidney\/a bad kidney\u2014needed to remove the bad kidney; live a normal life after that\u2014and they took both [out by] accident, which propelled us into a very abnormal life. We needed to get a kidney transplant; it took two years to get that\u2014lots of surgeries; lots of ups and downs\u2014even on the way toward that.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s a physical journey we\u2019re going through to get him to a transplant; and at the same time, we\u2019re going through a pretty profound spiritual journey of trying to figure out: \u201cWhere is God in the middle of this?\u201d and \u201cHow to I make sense of this and what\u2019s happened?\u201d and \u201cHow do we navigate these things?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I outlined some of the things I started to wrestle with, even through, just Daniel 3:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>God is able to save us.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<ul>\n<li>He may not save us, but He\u2019s in the fire.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<ul>\n<li>He\u2019s going to use your fire for others.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<ul>\n<li>And He showed us that we\u2019re going to need others in the fire. Just like Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego had each other, we were going to need community\/we were going to need other people to help us stand firm and stay strong.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>Honestly, I took those things back to my wife, who had a real hard time even being in the room with him. I said, \u201cThis is what I think the Lord is saying is how we\u2019re going to get by.\u201d Those become the guiding principles for us over the next several years of trying to live our lives\u2014to not know what our future held\u2014but trust the One who held the future.<\/p>\n<p>I love what you said: \u201cIt\u2019s not about the size of our faith; it\u2019s the <em>object<\/em> of our faith.\u201d It\u2019s Christ; it\u2019s the living God. It\u2019s not <em>our<\/em> faith; it\u2019s the <em>object<\/em> of our faith. That\u2019s really easy for me to say; it\u2019s quite a journey to get to a place where I trust the object of my faith.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, you end up burying Caleb at age 15.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Correct.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You got 15 years and ups and downs.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>Wait, let\u2019s go to that. He passes\u2014but go back to those 15 years with him\u2014\u201cWere those good years?\u2014What was that like?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes; they were gifts from God every day. In fact, that\u2019s one of the lessons my wife and I from this were forced to adopt, but thankful to adopt, is: \u201cEvery day we had with him\/every day we\u2019ve had with our girls, is a gift. It\u2019s not a right; it\u2019s a gift. It\u2019s a deposit; it\u2019s not a withdrawal.\u201d That helps us to recognize: \u201cBe thankful for the gift of this day.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Fifteen years, yes. My son got his transplant at two. He had to have some medicines and some medical procedures; we went in and out the hospital for infections and all kinds of things over the course of the following years. But my son went to school. He loved sports; he was a Tennessee ball fan, who suffered like me. [Laughter] He loved hockey; the National Predators were our team. We went to hockey games all the time together. I got to coach his T-ball team. A lot of the things that I wanted to do and be, as a dad, to a little boy, I got a chance to do all those things. We dressed up as Ghost Busters and ran around Walmart<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> like we were capturing ghosts in our little ghost capturer. We just did a lot of fun things.<\/p>\n<p>But one of the things, by necessity, we knew we had to do was teach him about the Lord, and for him to understand that his life was on purpose and in God\u2019s hands, and that God was using his story, and that none of these things were outside of God\u2019s plan for him, and to <em>embrace<\/em> that. We were having big\/giant theological conversations with this little boy his whole life, a bit at a time\/a piece at a time\u2014teaching moments when he would be in surgery, where he\u2019d be dealing with an issue, we\u2019d just be explaining; or \u201cWhy do I have to have this feeding pump at night?\u201d\u2014it would just be ongoing.<\/p>\n<p>It would just be all the time we\u2019d be talking about: \u201cWhere\u2019s God in the midst of these things?\u201d We\u2019d get our Bibles out; we\u2019d have family worship. My lessons would be very much about: \u201cWhy are things like this in the world?\u201d \u201cWhy do we see broken circumstances?\u201d \u201cHow do we trust God, even if He doesn\u2019t change our circumstance?\u201d The lessons we were learning we were just sharing, because we were still learning them. Of course, now I\u2019m pastoring at this point; so I\u2019m leading a church to understand these things.<\/p>\n<p>Those years were wonderful\u2014years two through thirteen\u2014for Caleb. He went to school; he gamed online with his buddies\u2014loved it\u2014he played on the junior high basketball team. All of those things that a normal kid would do, he did. If you didn\u2019t know his story\u2014which so many people knew his story\u2014but if you didn\u2019t, you wouldn\u2019t necessarily know anything was wrong; right? He\u2019s a little bit smaller than some of the people his age; but there was nothing drastic that would make you think, \u201cOh, mercy, what\u2019s going on with that little boy?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But he had a lot going on. When he was 13 years old, he started to have some issues\/some eyesight issues. We went to the doctor; nothing got picked up. He started having some really bad headaches, so we knew something was off. He got to a point, where it was like, \u201cOkay, let\u2019s just take him to the hospital.\u201d We were so used to the hospital; going to the hospital was just normal for us. People hear: \u201cGo to the hospital,\u201d\u2014they usually freak out\u2014it\u2019s like it\u2019s just like going to your neighbor\u2019s house for us: [Laughter] \u201cLet\u2019s go see all of our buddies at the hospital.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>We go up there; and they start running some tests, but nothing\u2019s kicking up. Then he went unconscious. He would stay unconscious for three weeks. It was during that time that they discovered that he had something called fungal meningitis, and it caused him to have a stroke. Our bodies would just be exposed to whatever caused that and just kick it out\/the immune system would just kick it out. But he\u2019s on immune-suppressing drugs, because of the kidney transplant. So what our bodies would kick out, his body doesn\u2019t have that defense system.<\/p>\n<p>We had no idea if he would even survive\/come out of the coma. I remember, during that time, writing articles just to process in my own mind because: \u201cHere we are; we\u2019re back in the fire again\/in the heat of it.\u201d Proverbs 3:5-6, in that moment, became really a staple for us: \u201cTrust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make straight your paths.\u201d That\u2019s a really easy verse, as Christians, to read; and it\u2019s a very <em>hard<\/em> verse to live. It\u2019s so easy to say: \u201cJust trust God\u201d; and that\u2019s the right answer!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You put it on the wall; it\u2019s a slogan.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> You put it on your kitchen wall.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>And what does it even mean to trust the Lord with all your heart?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s a great question. To trust the Lord\/to trust anything is to put full confidence and dependence on that thing. The Hebrew verb there, \u201cto trust,\u201d is actually imaged by somebody lying face down on the ground with their back exposed. You\u2019re in your most vulnerable position; you\u2019re <em>trusting<\/em> whoever\u2019s in the presence of you to not harm you\/to not take advantage of you. You\u2019re fully exposed.<\/p>\n<p>This idea of <em>trusting<\/em> God with all your heart\u2014every fiber of your being\/nothing held back and <em>not<\/em> lean on your own understanding\u2014that\u2019s the contrast. The way that we learn to trust God is we <em>have to know Him<\/em>, and we come to know Him through His Word. It\u2019s not our opinions of God that matter; it\u2019s: \u201cWho is God?\u201d \u201cHow has He revealed Himself?\u201d It\u2019s getting into the Word; it\u2019s diving in with others to learn who God is and to walk with Him in fellowship and communion with Him.<\/p>\n<p>The more we know God the more our trust for God begins to grow, but the battle we will always face is: \u201cWhat is the deterrent of our trust?\u201d\u2014it\u2019s leaning on our own understanding.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, there you get into the theology of who God is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Help us understand who this God is. What does it mean that He\u2019s sovereign?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s a great question. I had a really powerful conversation with my daughter, my youngest, Kyra\u2014six years old at the time\u2014we were riding down the road together. She was crying; she was thinking about her brother. She said, \u201cI miss Caleb.\u201d And she said, \u201cDad, why did God do it this way?\u201d I gave her the really easy, good answer; I said, \u201cOne day, when Jesus returns, He\u2019s going to make all things new; and your brother\u2019s going to be restored, and sin will be no more and death will be no more.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m thinking she\u2019s going to be like, \u201cOh, okay; I get that Dad.\u201d And she goes, \u201cNo, but if God\u2019s going to do it that way one day, why didn\u2019t He just <em>start<\/em> it that way?\u201d I said, \u201cIt did start\u201d\u2014again, I\u2019m trying to give her some basic\u2014I\u2019m like, \u201cYou know, it did <em>start<\/em> that way; but then we sinned and rebelled.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>She\u2019s like, \u201cNo, no, Dad, I know all of that. But I know one day God\u2019s going to make it where none of these things happen again. Why didn\u2019t He <em>make<\/em> it where it couldn\u2019t happen to begin with?\u201d It was in that moment that it hit me; I was like, \u201cThis is a <em>profound<\/em> question,\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I was going to say that\u2019s not a six-year-old\/that\u2019s a sixty-year-old question as well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u2014which told me her little mind is trying to grapple with understanding like, \u201cHow do I understand God in this world, where my brother\u2019s gone, and God could have done something different?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I said, \u201cSweetheart, that is a question that philosophers and theologians have written major books about. But let me give you the <em>best<\/em> answer I can think of.\u201d I said, \u201cThere\u2019s something about this kind of world\u2014where we experience love, and then loss; and hurts, and pains, and sadness; and have to anticipate future days, where those things are\u2014there\u2019s something about this kind of world, where God fixes it at the end\/makes it new at the end, that gives Him more glory and us more joy and more understanding of who He is, than a world that would <em>not<\/em> have had those experiences. And that\u2019s the <em>only<\/em> answer I know to tell you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>How did she respond?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> She said, \u201cI just want that day to come.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Don\u2019t we all.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> And I said, \u201cYes, baby, that\u2019s why the Bible ends with: \u2018Come, Lord Jesus, come! [Revelation 22:20]\u2019\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> We live like that. Here\u2019s what it\u2019s really done: as a family, we\u2019ve gone from saying [to a question], \u201cHow many?\u201d at the restaurant\u2014you know, \u201cFive,\u201d to \u201cFour,\u201d\u2014and every time we say it, it stings.<\/p>\n<p>Yet, we long for the day where that loss is not a reality anymore, where all things are made new. We <em>long<\/em> for heaven. Life with him there and us here makes us <em>long<\/em> for life there. I think that\u2019s one of the things that suffering, and pain, and loss do in this world is that God actually loosens our grip on this world. The more people we lose, [whom] we love to the next world, the more we <em>long<\/em> for that world and lessen our grip on this one. I think that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> How does walking through a valley like you\u2019ve walked through affect your marriage? And how does a husband and wife walk through it together?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> It will either make or break you. We have watched families that have gone through trials\u2014whether it be we knew them in the hospital or because of our circumstances, we\u2019ve watched marriages end\u2014we learned later that the majority of marriages that have children with special needs and different issues usually end in divorce; because it\u2019s so stressful. There\u2019s no normalcy; the routines get ripped wide open.<\/p>\n<p>For us, first off, we\u2019ve always just said, \u201cOur commitment is: \u2018You\u2019re stuck with me; I\u2019m stuck with you.\u2019 So it\u2019s either: \u201cLet\u2019s find a way to make it work and be enjoyable, or we\u2019re going to make it work and be miserable.\u201d I think, really though, that commitment to say, \u201cThere\u2019s no quitting for us,\u201d forces us to then to say, \u201cSo how do we walk with each other?\u201d in a way that, when she\u2019s upset, I know when to lean in and when to give her space; I know when to talk about things and when <em>not<\/em> to talk about things.<\/p>\n<p>But those are <em>hard things<\/em>. There have been days when I\u2019ve wanted to talk about Caleb, and I don\u2019t want to trigger her into being upset; I just keep it to myself. That\u2019s <em>hard<\/em>, but it\u2019s also trying to learn: \u201cI don\u2019t want to unnecessarily cause grief for her.\u201d I may want to say something\u2014and I can just say it, and enjoy being able to talk about it, and move on\u2014and now, she\u2019s wrecked the rest of the day. It\u2019s just learning\/it\u2019s knowing each other. It\u2019s knowing each other, and it\u2019s being honest with each other and sensitive to each other\u2019s needs.<\/p>\n<p>Me and her talked about this\/it\u2019s like, \u201cThere\u2019s nobody else on this earth, who has walked through what we\u2019ve walked through, <em>together<\/em>.\u201d We shared this together in such a way that there\u2019s nobody in the world who we can say, \u201cWe share it similarly.\u201d It\u2019s forged a bond that is just like, \u201cWe\u2019ve suffered <em>together<\/em>.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>This is one of the reasons we do respite weekends. I have a ministry called Knowing Jesus Ministries. We produce resources, and articles, and videos, and teach theology. And one of the big aspects is helping people develop a theology of suffering. We do these respite weekends, where families, who have lost children, come to our home for the weekend; and we just minister to one another. For me and Katrina to do that together is important for us, because it\u2019s good for <em>us<\/em>. We don\u2019t like come\/give all the answers. I mean, we\u2019re blessed by the people, who show up, and talk and share their own experiences. It\u2019s just been phenomenal to have that together.<\/p>\n<p>Katrina\u2019s growth and spiritual maturity, it was forced\u2014both of ours; I mean, we were both in very similar places\u2014going through this, it forces you to figure out real quick what you think and what you believe. She was in the same journey as I was in learning to forgive and learning: \u201cWho is this God that we\u2019re putting all of our chips on? Who is He?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m curious\u2014when you came home; or you were probably at the hospital\/you both were\u2014when you shared with her the story of seeing the doctor, who botched the surgery, and it had taken you a while to forgive him\u2014but when you saw him, you told him, \u201cI forgive you\u201d; and he just broke down\u2014what was her response when you shared that?<\/p>\n<p><em>\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Shelby:<\/strong> You\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson talk with Erik Reed on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We\u2019re going to hear Erik\u2019s response here in just a second. But first, we\u2019d love to send you a copy of Erik\u2019s book, <em>Uncommon Trust: Learning to Trust God When Life Doesn\u2019t Make Sense<\/em>. It\u2019s going to be our gift to you when you make a donation of any amount this week to support the work of <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>You can give at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call with your donation at 1-800-358-6329. Again, the number is 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Alright, now back to Dave and Ann Wilson\u2019s conversation with Erik Reed.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> She broke down, crying, as well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014because?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u2014because we were entangled in this together. You know, she held bitterness and resentment just like I did. My forgiving him, face to face, was like an <em>us<\/em> forgiving him. She felt very much a part of that. She was also just amazed that God orchestrated that encounter\/honestly, just an elevator encounter.<\/p>\n<p>Katrina\u2014at Caleb\u2019s funeral, one of the things that I mentioned to the people gathered was\u2014\u201cYou know, I\u2019m the guy that\u2019s on the stage at church preaching. My wife is the most quiet, unassuming behind-the-scenes person\u2014she\u2019s a hospitality queen\u2014she <em>loves<\/em> to have people over; she loves to cook for people.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You have to hunt her down; she\u2019s not going to be here [in the studio]\/you\u2019re just not going to find her. If I would have told her\u2014like, \u201cYou\u2019re coming with me to be on this podcast,\u201d\u2014oh, my goodness, she would have just <em>melted<\/em> to the floor; she\u2019s, \u201cNo!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>What I said at Caleb\u2019s funeral was: \u201cPeople do not realize the strength of her faith\u2014\u2014because, if you\u2019re a mother, who has to <em>walk<\/em> through years of all of these questions and uncertainties about your son; and then you hold his hand when he passes into glory; and you can wash your face, and love your girls, and keep taking the next step forward in faith, without wavering\u2014you are a <em>mature<\/em> believer. She may not write books, and she may not stand up and ever give a speech, but she has a faith worthy of imitation.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, it had to be <em>something<\/em> to be able to be the one who gave a part of her own body\/her kidney to save her son\u2019s life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Oh, mercy; yes, and did it selflessly. She\u2019d never even had a surgery before, and she\u2019s going and having a nephrectomy done. But it was never a question for her\u2014she was <em>scared<\/em>\u2014but it was never a question, like, \u201cOf course, I\u2019m doing this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cThis is what we do as moms.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u201cThis is what I\u2019m here for! I\u2019m here to take care of this kid.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Talk to the mom\u2014or dad, husband\/wife, sister: you\u2019ve got daughters, who are sisters to Caleb\u2014and you have credibility, because you\u2019ve <em>walked<\/em> down this valley; some of us wouldn\u2019t\u2014who\u2019s just hearing you and going, \u201cI just can\u2019t get there; I don\u2019t see myself able to get to that kind of trust.\u201d What would you say to them?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> I\u2019ll say a couple of things:<\/p>\n<p>For the person, who is trying to <em>imagine<\/em> being in our scenario and <em>imagine<\/em> being okay with going through our scenario, that\u2019s not how it works. God doesn\u2019t give you grace to <em>imagine<\/em> going through the trial; He gives you grace in the trial. So don\u2019t get yourself worked up to say, \u201cDo I have the kind of trust that can imagine going through the most horrific thing and being okay with it before it ever happens?\u201d No, that\u2019s not how that works. You\u2019re given grace <em>in<\/em> the hour of need. Grace is not something that\u2019s stored up on the grocery shelves for you to stock up on. It\u2019s hand-to-mouth every day.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> They saw him <em>in<\/em> the fire.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> That\u2019s it: \u201c\u2026in the fire.\u201d This is what I would say for the person in the fire then\u2014I would say this: \u201cSurrender,\u201d \u201cSurrender,\u201d\u2014say\u2014\u201cLord, help me to trust You.\u201d You don\u2019t have to have all the answers; you don\u2019t have to even do it in a way that looks beautiful to the outsider, looking in. What you have to do is go humbly before your God and say, \u201cI trust that You have my life, and I\u2019m not going to worry about tomorrow. \u2018Tomorrow has enough troubles of its own.\u2019 I\u2019m going to ask You to be my provider just like \u2018You feed the birds of the air and clothe the lilies of the field,\u2019 I\u2019m going to ask for <em>today\u2019s<\/em> grace [Matthew 6:25-34].\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And He gives it; He\u2019s faithful to help you take the next step. I can say that, as somebody, who is still trusting every day for grace to take the next step. He is faithful\u2014and He is no respecter of persons; your degree does not impress Him\u2014so He will give it to the man and woman listening to this today too.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Shelby:<\/strong> You\u2019ve been listening to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>Now, if you know of anyone who would benefit and needs to hear today\u2019s conversation that Dave and Ann Wilson had with Erik Reed, you can share it from wherever you get your podcasts. While you\u2019re there, it would really help if you would rate and review us.<\/p>\n<p>Now, I\u2019ve got with me today the president of FamilyLife, David Robbins. David, this has been a heavy few days, thinking about trusting God through difficult times; but it\u2019s an important conversation; right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>David:<\/strong> Yes, when I think about the trials and sufferings that come as a part of a broken world\u2014when I think about the waiting and longing that a lot of people experience of desires that have been put on their heart; but yet, God\u2019s not showing up in the timing or the way we want\u2014there\u2019s a lot of pain out there\/there\u2019s a lot to process. Especially, as I think about listening to today what Erik shared, it just hits the nail on the head of how much we all ache and long for real restoration and healing in so many different areas in our lives. At FamilyLife, that\u2019s precisely what we want to enter into. We believe that Jesus is the healer\/we believe that He restores <em>all things<\/em> and makes all things new in His time because of the gospel.<\/p>\n<p>I just want to take a moment to thank those of you who are FamilyLife partners, who give financially, whether that\u2019s monthly in an ongoing way or with special gifts as you\u2019re able. You enable us to meet real needs that people have\/to minister to people with the beauty and redemption found in Jesus in their time of need, bringing specific topics like we talked about today\/meeting people right where they are. Thank you for continuing to partner with us, and we are grateful for those of you who would be interested in <em>beginning<\/em> to partner with us to continue to take this help and hope to more people.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Shelby:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s right. If you want to help with that, again, you can support <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>by donating at FamilyLifeToday.com. When you do donate, as our thanks this week, we\u2019re going to send you a copy of Erik Reed\u2019s book, <em>Uncommon Trust<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>How do you keep from becoming merely roommates with your spouse? You ever felt that before? We\u2019re going to hear, tomorrow, from Ron Deal and Greg Smalley on just that topic.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2022 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a><\/p>\n<p>1<\/p>\n"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":["<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["23.04M"],"filesize_raw":["24161685"],"_edit_lock":["1747172150:47000"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_fbabec4553fc85670e89c8946baeb8b2167e5b74":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" 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});\";s:18:\"current_block_list\";a:17:{i:0;s:14:\"uagb\/container\";i:1;s:12:\"core\/heading\";i:2;s:9:\"core\/html\";i:3;s:10:\"core\/group\";i:6;s:21:\"uagb\/advanced-heading\";i:7;s:14:\"uagb\/separator\";i:8;s:14:\"uagb\/icon-list\";i:9;s:20:\"uagb\/icon-list-child\";i:10;s:11:\"core\/search\";i:13;s:18:\"core\/legacy-widget\";i:16;s:10:\"uagb\/image\";i:17;s:17:\"core\/social-links\";i:18;s:16:\"core\/social-link\";i:19;s:14:\"core\/paragraph\";i:20;s:30:\"meta-box\/fl-conditional-blocks\";i:21;s:12:\"uagb\/buttons\";i:22;s:18:\"uagb\/buttons-child\";}s:8:\"uag_flag\";b:1;s:11:\"uag_version\";i:1776535419;s:6:\"gfonts\";a:1:{s:7:\"Default\";a:2:{s:10:\"fontfamily\";s:7:\"Default\";s:12:\"fontvariants\";a:0:{}}}s:10:\"gfonts_url\";s:71:\"\/\/fonts.googleapis.com\/css?family=Default&subset=latin&display=fallback\";s:12:\"gfonts_files\";a:0:{}s:14:\"uag_faq_layout\";b:0;}"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Where is God when it hurts? Author Erik Reed reflects on his intimate experience of God amidst his son's suffering -- and learning to trust God in the hard.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2022-04-27.pdf","transcript_content":"<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> To trust the Lord\/to trust anything is to put full confidence and dependence on that thing. The Hebrew verb there, \u201cto trust,\u201d is actually imaged by somebody lying face down on the ground with their back exposed. You\u2019re in your most vulnerable position; you\u2019re <em>trusting<\/em> whoever\u2019s in the presence of you to not harm you\/to not take advantage of you. You\u2019re fully exposed.<\/p>\n<p>This idea of <em>trusting<\/em> God with all your heart\u2014every fiber of your being; nothing held back and <em>not<\/em> lean on your own understanding\u2014that\u2019s the contrast. The way that we learn to trust God is we <em>have to know Him<\/em>; we come to know Him through His Word. It\u2019s not our opinions of God that matter; it\u2019s: \u201cWho is God?\u201d \u201cHow has He revealed Himself?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019ve often preached\u2014see if you can finish\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, you\u2019ve preached a lot.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, I was just wondering if you can finish this sermon theme. Sitting there in the front row\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I do listen; I just don\u2019t always remember.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I know; and I know you\u2019re going to be able to finish this. I\u2019ve often said that: \u201cIt\u2019s not the size of your faith that matters; it\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cthe size of your God.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, and so\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wait; do I get an A?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, you did; way to go!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Woo! Ding, ding, ding!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Give me five! [Laughter] I mean, I didn\u2019t know if you listened; but you heard it multiple\/probably hundreds of times\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014hundreds of times.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014in 30 years.<\/p>\n<p>But often, we think, \u201cI need greater faith.\u201d Jesus is the One who said, \u201cNo, you just need mustard seed-sized faith\/small faith.\u201d But if that faith is in a God you don\u2019t know or you can\u2019t trust, it doesn\u2019t matter what size your faith; it\u2019s really the size of your God or the understanding of who He is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s really important because, when we go through hard or tragic times, or even times we just can\u2019t make sense of it\u2014and we can\u2019t understand how God would allow this to happen or allow us to walk this path\u2014that\u2019s when we go back to that and think, \u201cIs that real? Is it true?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s when we find out: \u201cWhat kind of God do we believe in?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> We have Erik Reed back with us: a pastor, a dad, a husband. Man, we\u2019ve had\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014author.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014a couple of days with you, talking about your book, <em>Uncommon Trust: Learning to Trust God When Life Doesn\u2019t Make Sense<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>First of all, welcome back to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Thank you; thank you. I\u2019ve enjoyed being with you guys.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know if we can catch our listeners up from our last two broadcasts.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I just said this though\/I just told Erik: \u201cI don\u2019t think I\u2019ve cried through an <em>entire<\/em> two days of interviewing as I have lately. But this story is so compelling\/hard; and yet, it really does make us put our eyes back on Jesus.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, so I\u2019ll try to give a quick synopsis. Erik, you can really jump in.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s really a story of a dad and a mom, who have their first born son, and have a totally unexpected outcome\u2014he\u2019s going to need medical help his whole life\u2014ends up needing a kidney transplant at almost two years of age.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; go ahead and tell us, in one minute or less, recap.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> You were on track: a good kidney\/a bad kidney\u2014needed to remove the bad kidney; live a normal life after that\u2014and they took both [out by] accident, which propelled us into a very abnormal life. We needed to get a kidney transplant; it took two years to get that\u2014lots of surgeries; lots of ups and downs\u2014even on the way toward that.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s a physical journey we\u2019re going through to get him to a transplant; and at the same time, we\u2019re going through a pretty profound spiritual journey of trying to figure out: \u201cWhere is God in the middle of this?\u201d and \u201cHow to I make sense of this and what\u2019s happened?\u201d and \u201cHow do we navigate these things?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I outlined some of the things I started to wrestle with, even through, just Daniel 3:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>God is able to save us.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<ul>\n<li>He may not save us, but He\u2019s in the fire.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<ul>\n<li>He\u2019s going to use your fire for others.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<ul>\n<li>And He showed us that we\u2019re going to need others in the fire. Just like Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego had each other, we were going to need community\/we were going to need other people to help us stand firm and stay strong.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>Honestly, I took those things back to my wife, who had a real hard time even being in the room with him. I said, \u201cThis is what I think the Lord is saying is how we\u2019re going to get by.\u201d Those become the guiding principles for us over the next several years of trying to live our lives\u2014to not know what our future held\u2014but trust the One who held the future.<\/p>\n<p>I love what you said: \u201cIt\u2019s not about the size of our faith; it\u2019s the <em>object<\/em> of our faith.\u201d It\u2019s Christ; it\u2019s the living God. It\u2019s not <em>our<\/em> faith; it\u2019s the <em>object<\/em> of our faith. That\u2019s really easy for me to say; it\u2019s quite a journey to get to a place where I trust the object of my faith.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, you end up burying Caleb at age 15.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Correct.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You got 15 years and ups and downs.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>Wait, let\u2019s go to that. He passes\u2014but go back to those 15 years with him\u2014\u201cWere those good years?\u2014What was that like?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes; they were gifts from God every day. In fact, that\u2019s one of the lessons my wife and I from this were forced to adopt, but thankful to adopt, is: \u201cEvery day we had with him\/every day we\u2019ve had with our girls, is a gift. It\u2019s not a right; it\u2019s a gift. It\u2019s a deposit; it\u2019s not a withdrawal.\u201d That helps us to recognize: \u201cBe thankful for the gift of this day.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Fifteen years, yes. My son got his transplant at two. He had to have some medicines and some medical procedures; we went in and out the hospital for infections and all kinds of things over the course of the following years. But my son went to school. He loved sports; he was a Tennessee ball fan, who suffered like me. [Laughter] He loved hockey; the National Predators were our team. We went to hockey games all the time together. I got to coach his T-ball team. A lot of the things that I wanted to do and be, as a dad, to a little boy, I got a chance to do all those things. We dressed up as Ghost Busters and ran around Walmart<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> like we were capturing ghosts in our little ghost capturer. We just did a lot of fun things.<\/p>\n<p>But one of the things, by necessity, we knew we had to do was teach him about the Lord, and for him to understand that his life was on purpose and in God\u2019s hands, and that God was using his story, and that none of these things were outside of God\u2019s plan for him, and to <em>embrace<\/em> that. We were having big\/giant theological conversations with this little boy his whole life, a bit at a time\/a piece at a time\u2014teaching moments when he would be in surgery, where he\u2019d be dealing with an issue, we\u2019d just be explaining; or \u201cWhy do I have to have this feeding pump at night?\u201d\u2014it would just be ongoing.<\/p>\n<p>It would just be all the time we\u2019d be talking about: \u201cWhere\u2019s God in the midst of these things?\u201d We\u2019d get our Bibles out; we\u2019d have family worship. My lessons would be very much about: \u201cWhy are things like this in the world?\u201d \u201cWhy do we see broken circumstances?\u201d \u201cHow do we trust God, even if He doesn\u2019t change our circumstance?\u201d The lessons we were learning we were just sharing, because we were still learning them. Of course, now I\u2019m pastoring at this point; so I\u2019m leading a church to understand these things.<\/p>\n<p>Those years were wonderful\u2014years two through thirteen\u2014for Caleb. He went to school; he gamed online with his buddies\u2014loved it\u2014he played on the junior high basketball team. All of those things that a normal kid would do, he did. If you didn\u2019t know his story\u2014which so many people knew his story\u2014but if you didn\u2019t, you wouldn\u2019t necessarily know anything was wrong; right? He\u2019s a little bit smaller than some of the people his age; but there was nothing drastic that would make you think, \u201cOh, mercy, what\u2019s going on with that little boy?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But he had a lot going on. When he was 13 years old, he started to have some issues\/some eyesight issues. We went to the doctor; nothing got picked up. He started having some really bad headaches, so we knew something was off. He got to a point, where it was like, \u201cOkay, let\u2019s just take him to the hospital.\u201d We were so used to the hospital; going to the hospital was just normal for us. People hear: \u201cGo to the hospital,\u201d\u2014they usually freak out\u2014it\u2019s like it\u2019s just like going to your neighbor\u2019s house for us: [Laughter] \u201cLet\u2019s go see all of our buddies at the hospital.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>We go up there; and they start running some tests, but nothing\u2019s kicking up. Then he went unconscious. He would stay unconscious for three weeks. It was during that time that they discovered that he had something called fungal meningitis, and it caused him to have a stroke. Our bodies would just be exposed to whatever caused that and just kick it out\/the immune system would just kick it out. But he\u2019s on immune-suppressing drugs, because of the kidney transplant. So what our bodies would kick out, his body doesn\u2019t have that defense system.<\/p>\n<p>We had no idea if he would even survive\/come out of the coma. I remember, during that time, writing articles just to process in my own mind because: \u201cHere we are; we\u2019re back in the fire again\/in the heat of it.\u201d Proverbs 3:5-6, in that moment, became really a staple for us: \u201cTrust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make straight your paths.\u201d That\u2019s a really easy verse, as Christians, to read; and it\u2019s a very <em>hard<\/em> verse to live. It\u2019s so easy to say: \u201cJust trust God\u201d; and that\u2019s the right answer!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You put it on the wall; it\u2019s a slogan.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> You put it on your kitchen wall.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>And what does it even mean to trust the Lord with all your heart?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s a great question. To trust the Lord\/to trust anything is to put full confidence and dependence on that thing. The Hebrew verb there, \u201cto trust,\u201d is actually imaged by somebody lying face down on the ground with their back exposed. You\u2019re in your most vulnerable position; you\u2019re <em>trusting<\/em> whoever\u2019s in the presence of you to not harm you\/to not take advantage of you. You\u2019re fully exposed.<\/p>\n<p>This idea of <em>trusting<\/em> God with all your heart\u2014every fiber of your being\/nothing held back and <em>not<\/em> lean on your own understanding\u2014that\u2019s the contrast. The way that we learn to trust God is we <em>have to know Him<\/em>, and we come to know Him through His Word. It\u2019s not our opinions of God that matter; it\u2019s: \u201cWho is God?\u201d \u201cHow has He revealed Himself?\u201d It\u2019s getting into the Word; it\u2019s diving in with others to learn who God is and to walk with Him in fellowship and communion with Him.<\/p>\n<p>The more we know God the more our trust for God begins to grow, but the battle we will always face is: \u201cWhat is the deterrent of our trust?\u201d\u2014it\u2019s leaning on our own understanding.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, there you get into the theology of who God is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Help us understand who this God is. What does it mean that He\u2019s sovereign?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s a great question. I had a really powerful conversation with my daughter, my youngest, Kyra\u2014six years old at the time\u2014we were riding down the road together. She was crying; she was thinking about her brother. She said, \u201cI miss Caleb.\u201d And she said, \u201cDad, why did God do it this way?\u201d I gave her the really easy, good answer; I said, \u201cOne day, when Jesus returns, He\u2019s going to make all things new; and your brother\u2019s going to be restored, and sin will be no more and death will be no more.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m thinking she\u2019s going to be like, \u201cOh, okay; I get that Dad.\u201d And she goes, \u201cNo, but if God\u2019s going to do it that way one day, why didn\u2019t He just <em>start<\/em> it that way?\u201d I said, \u201cIt did start\u201d\u2014again, I\u2019m trying to give her some basic\u2014I\u2019m like, \u201cYou know, it did <em>start<\/em> that way; but then we sinned and rebelled.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>She\u2019s like, \u201cNo, no, Dad, I know all of that. But I know one day God\u2019s going to make it where none of these things happen again. Why didn\u2019t He <em>make<\/em> it where it couldn\u2019t happen to begin with?\u201d It was in that moment that it hit me; I was like, \u201cThis is a <em>profound<\/em> question,\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I was going to say that\u2019s not a six-year-old\/that\u2019s a sixty-year-old question as well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u2014which told me her little mind is trying to grapple with understanding like, \u201cHow do I understand God in this world, where my brother\u2019s gone, and God could have done something different?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I said, \u201cSweetheart, that is a question that philosophers and theologians have written major books about. But let me give you the <em>best<\/em> answer I can think of.\u201d I said, \u201cThere\u2019s something about this kind of world\u2014where we experience love, and then loss; and hurts, and pains, and sadness; and have to anticipate future days, where those things are\u2014there\u2019s something about this kind of world, where God fixes it at the end\/makes it new at the end, that gives Him more glory and us more joy and more understanding of who He is, than a world that would <em>not<\/em> have had those experiences. And that\u2019s the <em>only<\/em> answer I know to tell you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>How did she respond?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> She said, \u201cI just want that day to come.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Don\u2019t we all.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> And I said, \u201cYes, baby, that\u2019s why the Bible ends with: \u2018Come, Lord Jesus, come! [Revelation 22:20]\u2019\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> We live like that. Here\u2019s what it\u2019s really done: as a family, we\u2019ve gone from saying [to a question], \u201cHow many?\u201d at the restaurant\u2014you know, \u201cFive,\u201d to \u201cFour,\u201d\u2014and every time we say it, it stings.<\/p>\n<p>Yet, we long for the day where that loss is not a reality anymore, where all things are made new. We <em>long<\/em> for heaven. Life with him there and us here makes us <em>long<\/em> for life there. I think that\u2019s one of the things that suffering, and pain, and loss do in this world is that God actually loosens our grip on this world. The more people we lose, [whom] we love to the next world, the more we <em>long<\/em> for that world and lessen our grip on this one. I think that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> How does walking through a valley like you\u2019ve walked through affect your marriage? And how does a husband and wife walk through it together?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> It will either make or break you. We have watched families that have gone through trials\u2014whether it be we knew them in the hospital or because of our circumstances, we\u2019ve watched marriages end\u2014we learned later that the majority of marriages that have children with special needs and different issues usually end in divorce; because it\u2019s so stressful. There\u2019s no normalcy; the routines get ripped wide open.<\/p>\n<p>For us, first off, we\u2019ve always just said, \u201cOur commitment is: \u2018You\u2019re stuck with me; I\u2019m stuck with you.\u2019 So it\u2019s either: \u201cLet\u2019s find a way to make it work and be enjoyable, or we\u2019re going to make it work and be miserable.\u201d I think, really though, that commitment to say, \u201cThere\u2019s no quitting for us,\u201d forces us to then to say, \u201cSo how do we walk with each other?\u201d in a way that, when she\u2019s upset, I know when to lean in and when to give her space; I know when to talk about things and when <em>not<\/em> to talk about things.<\/p>\n<p>But those are <em>hard things<\/em>. There have been days when I\u2019ve wanted to talk about Caleb, and I don\u2019t want to trigger her into being upset; I just keep it to myself. That\u2019s <em>hard<\/em>, but it\u2019s also trying to learn: \u201cI don\u2019t want to unnecessarily cause grief for her.\u201d I may want to say something\u2014and I can just say it, and enjoy being able to talk about it, and move on\u2014and now, she\u2019s wrecked the rest of the day. It\u2019s just learning\/it\u2019s knowing each other. It\u2019s knowing each other, and it\u2019s being honest with each other and sensitive to each other\u2019s needs.<\/p>\n<p>Me and her talked about this\/it\u2019s like, \u201cThere\u2019s nobody else on this earth, who has walked through what we\u2019ve walked through, <em>together<\/em>.\u201d We shared this together in such a way that there\u2019s nobody in the world who we can say, \u201cWe share it similarly.\u201d It\u2019s forged a bond that is just like, \u201cWe\u2019ve suffered <em>together<\/em>.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>This is one of the reasons we do respite weekends. I have a ministry called Knowing Jesus Ministries. We produce resources, and articles, and videos, and teach theology. And one of the big aspects is helping people develop a theology of suffering. We do these respite weekends, where families, who have lost children, come to our home for the weekend; and we just minister to one another. For me and Katrina to do that together is important for us, because it\u2019s good for <em>us<\/em>. We don\u2019t like come\/give all the answers. I mean, we\u2019re blessed by the people, who show up, and talk and share their own experiences. It\u2019s just been phenomenal to have that together.<\/p>\n<p>Katrina\u2019s growth and spiritual maturity, it was forced\u2014both of ours; I mean, we were both in very similar places\u2014going through this, it forces you to figure out real quick what you think and what you believe. She was in the same journey as I was in learning to forgive and learning: \u201cWho is this God that we\u2019re putting all of our chips on? Who is He?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m curious\u2014when you came home; or you were probably at the hospital\/you both were\u2014when you shared with her the story of seeing the doctor, who botched the surgery, and it had taken you a while to forgive him\u2014but when you saw him, you told him, \u201cI forgive you\u201d; and he just broke down\u2014what was her response when you shared that?<\/p>\n<p><em>\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Shelby:<\/strong> You\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson talk with Erik Reed on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We\u2019re going to hear Erik\u2019s response here in just a second. But first, we\u2019d love to send you a copy of Erik\u2019s book, <em>Uncommon Trust: Learning to Trust God When Life Doesn\u2019t Make Sense<\/em>. It\u2019s going to be our gift to you when you make a donation of any amount this week to support the work of <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>You can give at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call with your donation at 1-800-358-6329. Again, the number is 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Alright, now back to Dave and Ann Wilson\u2019s conversation with Erik Reed.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> She broke down, crying, as well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014because?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u2014because we were entangled in this together. You know, she held bitterness and resentment just like I did. My forgiving him, face to face, was like an <em>us<\/em> forgiving him. She felt very much a part of that. She was also just amazed that God orchestrated that encounter\/honestly, just an elevator encounter.<\/p>\n<p>Katrina\u2014at Caleb\u2019s funeral, one of the things that I mentioned to the people gathered was\u2014\u201cYou know, I\u2019m the guy that\u2019s on the stage at church preaching. My wife is the most quiet, unassuming behind-the-scenes person\u2014she\u2019s a hospitality queen\u2014she <em>loves<\/em> to have people over; she loves to cook for people.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You have to hunt her down; she\u2019s not going to be here [in the studio]\/you\u2019re just not going to find her. If I would have told her\u2014like, \u201cYou\u2019re coming with me to be on this podcast,\u201d\u2014oh, my goodness, she would have just <em>melted<\/em> to the floor; she\u2019s, \u201cNo!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>What I said at Caleb\u2019s funeral was: \u201cPeople do not realize the strength of her faith\u2014\u2014because, if you\u2019re a mother, who has to <em>walk<\/em> through years of all of these questions and uncertainties about your son; and then you hold his hand when he passes into glory; and you can wash your face, and love your girls, and keep taking the next step forward in faith, without wavering\u2014you are a <em>mature<\/em> believer. She may not write books, and she may not stand up and ever give a speech, but she has a faith worthy of imitation.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, it had to be <em>something<\/em> to be able to be the one who gave a part of her own body\/her kidney to save her son\u2019s life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Oh, mercy; yes, and did it selflessly. She\u2019d never even had a surgery before, and she\u2019s going and having a nephrectomy done. But it was never a question for her\u2014she was <em>scared<\/em>\u2014but it was never a question, like, \u201cOf course, I\u2019m doing this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cThis is what we do as moms.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u201cThis is what I\u2019m here for! I\u2019m here to take care of this kid.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Talk to the mom\u2014or dad, husband\/wife, sister: you\u2019ve got daughters, who are sisters to Caleb\u2014and you have credibility, because you\u2019ve <em>walked<\/em> down this valley; some of us wouldn\u2019t\u2014who\u2019s just hearing you and going, \u201cI just can\u2019t get there; I don\u2019t see myself able to get to that kind of trust.\u201d What would you say to them?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> I\u2019ll say a couple of things:<\/p>\n<p>For the person, who is trying to <em>imagine<\/em> being in our scenario and <em>imagine<\/em> being okay with going through our scenario, that\u2019s not how it works. God doesn\u2019t give you grace to <em>imagine<\/em> going through the trial; He gives you grace in the trial. So don\u2019t get yourself worked up to say, \u201cDo I have the kind of trust that can imagine going through the most horrific thing and being okay with it before it ever happens?\u201d No, that\u2019s not how that works. You\u2019re given grace <em>in<\/em> the hour of need. Grace is not something that\u2019s stored up on the grocery shelves for you to stock up on. It\u2019s hand-to-mouth every day.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> They saw him <em>in<\/em> the fire.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> That\u2019s it: \u201c\u2026in the fire.\u201d This is what I would say for the person in the fire then\u2014I would say this: \u201cSurrender,\u201d \u201cSurrender,\u201d\u2014say\u2014\u201cLord, help me to trust You.\u201d You don\u2019t have to have all the answers; you don\u2019t have to even do it in a way that looks beautiful to the outsider, looking in. What you have to do is go humbly before your God and say, \u201cI trust that You have my life, and I\u2019m not going to worry about tomorrow. \u2018Tomorrow has enough troubles of its own.\u2019 I\u2019m going to ask You to be my provider just like \u2018You feed the birds of the air and clothe the lilies of the field,\u2019 I\u2019m going to ask for <em>today\u2019s<\/em> grace [Matthew 6:25-34].\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And He gives it; He\u2019s faithful to help you take the next step. I can say that, as somebody, who is still trusting every day for grace to take the next step. He is faithful\u2014and He is no respecter of persons; your degree does not impress Him\u2014so He will give it to the man and woman listening to this today too.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Shelby:<\/strong> You\u2019ve been listening to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>Now, if you know of anyone who would benefit and needs to hear today\u2019s conversation that Dave and Ann Wilson had with Erik Reed, you can share it from wherever you get your podcasts. While you\u2019re there, it would really help if you would rate and review us.<\/p>\n<p>Now, I\u2019ve got with me today the president of FamilyLife, David Robbins. David, this has been a heavy few days, thinking about trusting God through difficult times; but it\u2019s an important conversation; right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>David:<\/strong> Yes, when I think about the trials and sufferings that come as a part of a broken world\u2014when I think about the waiting and longing that a lot of people experience of desires that have been put on their heart; but yet, God\u2019s not showing up in the timing or the way we want\u2014there\u2019s a lot of pain out there\/there\u2019s a lot to process. Especially, as I think about listening to today what Erik shared, it just hits the nail on the head of how much we all ache and long for real restoration and healing in so many different areas in our lives. At FamilyLife, that\u2019s precisely what we want to enter into. We believe that Jesus is the healer\/we believe that He restores <em>all things<\/em> and makes all things new in His time because of the gospel.<\/p>\n<p>I just want to take a moment to thank those of you who are FamilyLife partners, who give financially, whether that\u2019s monthly in an ongoing way or with special gifts as you\u2019re able. You enable us to meet real needs that people have\/to minister to people with the beauty and redemption found in Jesus in their time of need, bringing specific topics like we talked about today\/meeting people right where they are. Thank you for continuing to partner with us, and we are grateful for those of you who would be interested in <em>beginning<\/em> to partner with us to continue to take this help and hope to more people.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Shelby:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s right. If you want to help with that, again, you can support <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>by donating at FamilyLifeToday.com. When you do donate, as our thanks this week, we\u2019re going to send you a copy of Erik Reed\u2019s book, <em>Uncommon Trust<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>How do you keep from becoming merely roommates with your spouse? You ever felt that before? We\u2019re going to hear, tomorrow, from Ron Deal and Greg Smalley on just that topic.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2022 FamilyLife. 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