{"id":307491,"date":"2022-04-26T08:02:08","date_gmt":"2022-04-26T12:02:08","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/erik-reed-forgiving-the-unforgivable\/"},"modified":"2025-05-13T17:33:22","modified_gmt":"2025-05-13T21:33:22","slug":"erik-reed-forgiving-the-unforgivable","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/erik-reed-forgiving-the-unforgivable\/","title":{"rendered":"Erik Reed: Forgiving the Unforgivable"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Author Erik Reed knows well the searing anger toward someone who&#8217;s changed your life forever. He retraces his path toward forgiving the unforgivable.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Author Erik Reed knows well the searing anger toward someone who&#8217;s changed your life forever. He retraces his path toward forgiving the unforgivable.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2022-04-26.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"21.51M","filesize_raw":"22550863","date_recorded":"2022-04-26 08:02:08","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2853,2822,2845,2879],"tags":[7081],"podcast_series":[8519],"cwp_profile":[9769],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307491","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-frazzled-family","category-growing-in-your-faith","category-loss-of-a-child-life-issues","category-loss-of-a-child","tag-forgiving-the-unforgivable","podcast_series-uncommon-trust","cwp_profile-erik-reed","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307491\/erik-reed-forgiving-the-unforgivable","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307491\/erik-reed-forgiving-the-unforgivable","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"WCJHoIyXaX\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/erik-reed-forgiving-the-unforgivable\/\">Erik Reed: Forgiving the Unforgivable<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/erik-reed-forgiving-the-unforgivable\/embed\/#?secret=WCJHoIyXaX\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Erik Reed: Forgiving the Unforgivable&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"WCJHoIyXaX\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2022-04-26.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2022-04-26.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p><strong>Erik: <\/strong>All of those questions about a future that you don\u2019t control started crippling my heart. I had <em>never<\/em> dealt with anxiety; I had never dealt with panic attacks in my life. I didn\u2019t even know\u2014I thought I was going crazy; I didn\u2019t even know what was happening to me\u2014I thought I was having a heart attack, driving down the road. I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m too young to have a heart attack; that can\u2019t be it!\u201d [Laughter] But my heart was about to beat out of my chest; you know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s what it felt like.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> I pulled over on the side of the road, and I called my wife [while] on the interstate. I was like, \u201cI don\u2019t know what\u2019s happening to my heart. I\u2019m sweating; it\u2019s 30 degrees outside. And my heart is beating out of my chest.\u201d She was like, \u201cGo to the hospital! I don\u2019t know.\u201d She didn\u2019t know what was happening either.<\/p>\n<p>I learned soon: \u201cOh, that\u2019s a panic attack.\u201d I would irrationally have those for years ahead: out of nowhere, they would happen.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> So not too long ago, I sat in a diner with a good friend of mine, who\u2019s a dad. His daughter was in Oxford High School, walking down the hall, when one of her classmates started shooting kids in the hallway. I knew his daughter was at Oxford High School; I didn\u2019t know the details that she actually saw the shooter, realized it was a shooting, and ran out of the school, got in her car and drove home.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> And this is a friend of yours that you coached with\/coached football with.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I coached high school football with him for a decade almost. His question to me is: \u201cHow do I trust God? How do <em>we<\/em> trust God? How do I help my daughter trust God in the middle of this kind of tragedy?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014when she has seen friends shot, and she\u2019s asking the question: \u201cHow does a good God allow this?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and her biggest thing was\u2014she\u2019s still afraid\u2014it\u2019s hard for her to shut the door at night and even sleep in her bedroom as, I think, she\u2019s a junior in high school. You know, that tragedy, like any tragedy, rocks the world. It rocks non-believers, who say, \u201cThat\u2019s why I can\u2019t believe\u201d; and believers, like us, say, \u201cYes, that\u2019s the reality of the world we live in.\u201d There are no easy answers to that question.<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019ve been discussing that already with Erik Reed, who\u2019s back in the studio with us\u2014a pastor\u2014and a man who wrote a book called <em>Uncommon Trust<\/em>. So if we\u2019re going to find somebody who can help us understand: \u201cHow do we trust God in this situation?\u201d Erik, you\u2019re the guy. Welcome back to FamilyLife.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes, I\u2019m not sure if I\u2019m the guy; but I\u2019m certainly a fellow traveler, trying to figure it out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and obviously, we\u2019ve already talked about you as a pastor, husband, three kids.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> And on our first episode, we talked about\u2014and I want to take us back there; we don\u2019t have to go through the whole story; because, again, if you missed yesterday, go listen to it, because Erik told us the whole story\u2014but one of the things that was <em>fascinating<\/em> about <em>your<\/em> tragedy is, when Caleb is born, there\u2019s a surgery that can be done that you think is going to make everything okay.<\/p>\n<p>I never got to ask you this question before: it\u2019s like, \u201cOkay, so the <em>doctor<\/em> botches the surgery\/makes a mistake,\u201d\u2014that, in my mind, is even harder\u2014it's like things in life happen that are out of our control; and all you can say is: \u201cIt\u2019s a natural disaster,\u201d or \u201cSomething went wrong,\u201d\u2014but when a human mistake causes tragedy\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014not only in your life, but in your son\u2019s life\u2014it feels like it\u2019s even harder to understand. Talk about your feelings in that moment. I mean, how did you deal with, not only the sadness, but the anger I\u2019m guessing you had to feel?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Well, we would deal with bitterness, and resentment, and anger for a good year after the surgery. We would replay that conversation so many times; you know?\u2014his demeanor, his attitude\u2014all the things\u2014every retelling, you know, he became more of a monster in the story.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, I bet.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> For our listeners, who maybe haven\u2019t heard yesterday, the doctor unknowingly removed <em>both<\/em> kidneys.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> And so\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014the bad kidney and the good kidney.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014your newborn son is left without kidneys, and he has to be on dialysis.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> And he looked as if he [the doctor] were completely indifferent\u2014you know, no remorse; no empathy\u2014so you know, honestly, we grew to hate him. We were so shattered. Every time we would watch our son struggle\u2014every time he was sick; every time we would have to go back to the hospital; every time we were in a surgery waiting room, eager to hear a surgeon come out and say, \u201cIt went okay,\u201d and still wondering, \u201cDid it <em>really <\/em>go okay?\u201d\u2014we would go back to that moment and that man.<\/p>\n<p>I remember having dreams about: \u201cWhat would I do if I got to run into him?\u201d You know, I was in the army; so I wasn\u2019t always a pastor; you know? [Laughter] So there were times when I was like, \u201cBoy! If I found him out\u2014just out\u2014what would I do?\u201d\u2014you know? I couldn\u2019t stand him. We even had family talking about: \u201cLet\u2019s find out where he lives\u201d; you know? It got to <em>that<\/em> place.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wow!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> And I knew, \u201cNow, this is not healthy. This is not healthy for our hearts,\u201d\u2014forget healthy, legally; [Laughter] forget jail time!\u2014I mean, \u201cThis is not good for our souls!\u201d And it wasn\u2019t. It was so\/you know, bitterness and resentment are like drinking poison; every little sip is killing you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> But it gives us a glimpse into how angry and how\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> It\u2019s real!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014I mean, you have a name for the person that caused this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> It isn\u2019t something out there; it\u2019s like: \u201cI know\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes; it\u2019s not abstract\u2014this is a real person; it\u2019s a face\u2014and it\u2019s a son, who is living out the implications of it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; you\u2019re looking at him every day.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u2014every day.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> So how long? What did you do?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> So over the course of that year, finally reaching the end of what I knew wasn\u2019t healthy, I started to tell my wife: \u201cWe\u2019ve got to figure this out. We\u2019ve got to get to a place, where our hearts can forgive him.\u201d Forgiveness is all over the Bible. It\u2019s like you can\u2019t even read the New Testament without hearing Jesus say something about forgiveness. And it\u2019s <em>all <\/em>terrible stuff when you\u2019re hating somebody! [Laughter] You know, when you\u2019re hating somebody, and then Jesus says, \u201cForgive as you\u2019ve been forgiven.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cLove your enemies!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u201cIf you <em>don\u2019t<\/em>, you won\u2019t be forgiven your sins.\u201d You\u2019re like, \u201cNooo!\u201d You know, Peter says, \u201cHow many times should we forgive somebody that\u2019s hurt us? Seven times?\u201d And Jesus says, \u201cNo, I tell you 70 times 7.\u201d He\u2019s not telling you to do the math; He\u2019s saying it\u2019s endless.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> You forgive; you forgive indefinitely.<\/p>\n<p>And then He tells a parable about a king who forgave a lesser servant a great debt. And then that lesser servant goes out and holds over the head of an even lesser servant a lesser debt. The king hears about it and actually puts the debt back on him. Then Jesus ends that whole story\/that whole parable by saying, \u201cSo be it with you if you don\u2019t forgive those who\u2019ve hurt you.\u201d And I\u2019m just like, \u201cWhew.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I had to start grappling with: \u201cOkay; what does forgiveness look like?\u201d Here\u2019s what I realized: \u201cForgiveness has nothing to do with the person\u201d; because the reality is he [the doctor] wasn\u2019t asking for our forgiveness. We may never have the chance to see him, face to face, to give him forgiveness. \u201cForgiveness had everything to do with our hearts before God,\u201d\u2014it could be said like this\u2014\u201cForgiveness always begins, vertically, ever before it ever goes out horizontally.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And the way that we finally came to a place\u2014and it wasn\u2019t a light switch, alright?\u2014it wasn\u2019t like flipping it on and flipping it off; forgiveness was a process. It was a process of going, vertically to God, to say, \u201cYou have forgiven me infinitely more than I\u2019ve ever been asked to forgive another\u201d; and really feeling that.<\/p>\n<p>I think, as Christians, it\u2019s like, \u201cYes, God\u2019s forgiven us of our sins.\u201d But it\u2019s like, \u201cDo you really understand the gravity of that? What have you been forgiven? What have you been rescued from?\u201d I mean, I deserve eternal judgment; my life has not been lived in righteousness. If there\u2019s a getting in on your own account, I\u2019m going to be at the bottom of the list. So as I look, vertically, at the grace and mercy of God in forgiving me through Christ, I\u2019m not being asked to do anything more than Christ has done for me. In fact, I\u2019m actually being asked to do a lot less.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> And so I had to really keep preaching that to my heart over, and over, and over before I could get to a place, where I really could say, \u201cI forgive him; I forgive this man.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It was a process for me and my wife together. It was a process, then, that we had to lead our family through, because our bitterness just echoed out to everyone else. We had to say, \u201cGuys, this is not honoring to God. He\u2019s given us so much grace and so much mercy, so we\u2019re not being asked to do something that we haven\u2019t been recipients of.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That process led us to a place of forgiving the doctor, genuinely, in our hearts. Truth be told, it\u2019s not one time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> We have to keep choosing to forgive.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You get triggered, and\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. Even as I sit here before you, let my mind wander off into:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>everything that surgery cost our family;<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<ul>\n<li>when I\u2019m at my son\u2019s grave with my daughters, and we\u2019re talking about his life\u2014if I let my mind wander off into\u2014\u201cYou know, he could possibly be here today if that surgery hadn\u2019t happened.\u201d<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>It doesn\u2019t take much for bitterness and resentment to come back.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> So forgiveness is a choice that you have to <em>keep<\/em> making. That became our mantra; it\u2019s like, \u201cWe\u2019re going to keep forgiving. We\u2019re going to keep choosing to forgive.\u201d Anytime our mind starts focusing, horizontally, on all that he did, we\u2019re going to send them back, vertically, to all that Christ has done for us. That\u2019s the only way that we can give forgiveness: is it has to come from above.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Were you able to see if Caleb was able to forgive him\u2014your son?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Absolutely, yes! This was a process: from the time he was little, his whole life, this was a conversation we were having\u2014talking about suffering, and sovereignty, and forgiveness, and trusting God\u2019s plans for your life\u2014it was mandatory! It could not <em>not <\/em>be part of the conversation with his whole life, because we were going to have to explain to him why he was different from his friends: \u201cWhy has he got this feeding tube in his stomach?\u201d \u201cWhy does he have all these scars on his chest?\u201d \u201cWhy does he have to take these medicines every day?\u201d You know, \u201cWhy does he have to do all these things that are normal to him, but then he sees his friends, and he's like, \u2018Oh, y\u2019all don\u2019t have feeding tubes in your stomach?\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I mean, we just had to raise him, understanding, \u201cHey, this is your story, and this is what is so unique about you. This is how God has worked in your life.\u201d Caleb, fortunately, never had the issue of having to forgive him, because he just understood God had his life in His hands, even a surgical mistake.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019m also imagining that watching his mom and dad\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014being able to forgive the doctor was a <em>powerful<\/em> model for him.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes; so a fascinating story that we never anticipated: one day, after finishing dialysis in the hospital\u2014Caleb had not had a transplant yet; he was almost two\u2014it was getting close to time, where it was like, \u201cWe\u2019re running out of time. He needs a transplant.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Just for our listeners, who maybe listened to the first one, we kind of left them on a cliffhanger\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014like, \u201cWait! So what happened?\u201d You decided, \u201cWe want him to live; we\u2019ll do whatever it takes.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u201cWe\u2019re going forward\u201d; yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> So at two, he had a kidney transplant.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> He ended up getting a kidney transplant. He was on a list forever\u2014right?\u2014a national registry. We <em>never<\/em> got a phone call. Everybody got tested; me and Katrina got tested; neither one of us were a match. And he was having to have new surgeries all the time for new catheters, because his catheters would clot off. We were running out of spots for catheters. It was getting\u2014literally, the last one he got, the surgeon was like, \u201cI don\u2019t know if we\u2019ll get another one in,\u201d\u2014which is terrifying!<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s like, \u201cWell, we don\u2019t have surgery scheduled already, so what are our options?\u201d\u2014you know? And then, they retested us in a moment of desperation. My wife came back as a match; she was not previously a match.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s miraculous.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> It\u2019s unbelievable! It\u2019s unbelievable. So my wife ended up being the donor for his transplant when he was two years old. Right before that surgery happened, we were there for dialysis. I was coming down the elevator. I\u2019m holding Caleb in my arms, and the elevator door opens; and it\u2019s the surgeon who took his kidney out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014standing right in front of you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> I hadn\u2019t seen him in two years.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Ugh!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> He was standing, face to face. It was one of those moments, where, you know, if you see somebody, you like try to\u2014like you wanted to look away and pretend like you didn\u2019t see each other?\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u2014we both tried to do that, but we were literally, face to face, in an open elevator; there was nowhere to go. I attempt to walk one direction, and he\u2019s like going the same direction. We even do the little dance, where it\u2019s like you\u2019re trying\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> No!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u2014and then, finally, it was like, \u201cOkay, this is so awkward; we\u2019re going to have to acknowledge each other.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t like you were just some patient\u2014he knew when he saw your eyes\u2014the same thing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Oh, yes; yes. And so, actually, I asked him\/I said, \u201cCan I talk to you for a second?\u201d We actually stepped out and into the lobby.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014with your son still in your arms?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Caleb was right here in my arms. I looked at him, and I said, \u201cI just want you to know that my family and I forgive you for what happened.\u201d He broke down, crying, in the lobby.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> And I broke down, crying, after that. Of course, I had over-hydrated tear ducts that day; so it was one of those rare exceptions. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>And listen, we forgave him, even if we never saw him again; but what it showed me was that he had actually carried a deep burden as well. We found out later he was a Christian surgeon. He had actually done all kinds of missionary work on children, who could never have care. Of course, it was like, \u201cOf course, that\u2019s the case! [Laughter] Of course!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> And you had probably had never considered the nights that <em>he <\/em>had been up, just beating himself up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> No! Because, you know, when you\u2019re bitter, you don\u2019t <em>want<\/em> to consider the other side; you know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> And so, you know, with some time and some maturity, hopefully, I\u2019m able to look back and go, \u201cThere\u2019s no telling why he came across that day the way he did.\u201d We were hurt\u2014we may have heard even things\u2014you know, it\u2019s like you just can\u2019t even trust what you perceived on that day to be completely accurate. But even so, he broke down; and he told me\/he said, \u201cYou have no idea how much that means to hear.\u201d And that\u2019s the last time I ever saw him.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> But it was transformative for me; because it reminded me that we, often, make people into monsters. They\u2019re just people; you know? They\u2019re just people too. He made a mistake, and he <em>felt<\/em> that mistake all the time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Just think how different that moment would have been if you were bitter;\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Absolutely!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014and you opened the elevator door, and there he is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> If that happened to me before, I don\u2019t know <em>what <\/em>I\u2019m saying to him or doing to him.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s so sweet of God to connect you guys to free you both up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> He needed that freedom.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> And for us, we had forgiven him; but you talk about just the weight off your shoulders\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u2014to be able to say that to him\u2014to look him in the face and to go, \u201cWe forgive you.\u201d To see his face just break in front of me; it was a powerful lesson.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> It is a picture of the gospel.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> It is; that\u2019s exactly right. Forgiveness is all about the gospel. You can only forgive by the power of the gospel; right? Christ\u2019s forgiveness to you is how you can ever forgive another person.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, and what you did\u2014and as you said, you\u2019re still doing\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Still choosing to have to do!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014is not possible apart from the power of God, I don\u2019t think.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> One hundred percent.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, you can\u2019t get there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Well, if you\u2019re hoping that somebody will be forgivable; [Laughter] right?\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u2014that they\u2019re going to come <em>begging<\/em> for mercy and forgiveness; that they\u2019re going to come to their senses of what they\u2019ve done. There are no conditions that Jesus puts on our forgiving\u2014so when you always put it on the <em>other<\/em> to be <em>forgivable<\/em>\u2014I think you\u2019re going to find yourself withholding forgiveness or finding a lot of excuses to withhold forgiveness.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> There are some people, who will never want your forgiveness, who you need to forgive.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, if God did that to us, we\u2019re still not forgiven.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Exactly! That\u2019s exactly right!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> We\u2019ve <em>never<\/em> gotten to the place where we\u2019re forgivable!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> We were never forgivable; that\u2019s right! [Laughter][<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> What about the person, who maybe just stayed angry with God?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes; I think that\u2019s a really good question. So going back to when I was, with my Bible in hand and notebook in hand, that day and I got to the book of Daniel. The very first thing that happens in Daniel 1 is God allows for Nebuchadnezzar to go in and take Israel and turns them upside down. These young men, and all the best and brightest of the land, get ripped, kicking and screaming, out of their homes, away from their families. Everything changed in a moment: new identities, new names, new language, new everything.<\/p>\n<p>I remember reading that; and I just stopped and I was like\/that\u2019s how I felt\u2014our world is turned upside down; everything has changed now\u2014I felt I could identify with these people. I kept reading; and you eventually, get introduced to Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego. You see the command to bow down, and they won\u2019t do it. All of a sudden, they get summoned to Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar, you know, says, \u201cThis is it; this is your chance. Here\u2019s the fiery furnace. You can feel the heat on your face. Bow down and worship me and live.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And their response to him\u2014it exploded into life when they said\u2014\u201cThe God whom we serve is able to save us.\u201d And then I read the rest of the verse; and I was <em>wrecked<\/em> when I read, \u201cBut even if He doesn\u2019t\u2014but if not\u2014we will still not bow down and serve you.\u201d The thing that I kept reading in the Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego story was, after they were thrown into the furnace\u2014He is in it\u2014the fourth figure in the fire.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> [Singing] \u201cThere is another in the fire!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> I would sing it with you, but your listeners should be spared that. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>You know, for somebody who had never read that, you know, there was no clich\u00e9 for me to say, \u201cGod\u2019s in this furnace right now; He\u2019s with us.\u201d He has the power to rescue them, and keep them from ever going in it; yet, allows them to go in it, only to show Himself to be there. What\u2019s really fascinating to me, too, is that\u2014it\u2019s not like God decided to show up\u2014God was always there!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s a great point.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> He was always with them! But fascinatingly, He became visible to them in the fire; and so they saw Him.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> They saw Him in the fire. He was always there, but the fire made Him visible. I think that\u2019s true in life: God is always with us; but it\u2019s in our suffering and sorrows that He is, I believe, most visible to us\u2014because \u201cMan of sorrows [Isaiah 53:3]\u201d\u2014Jesus is the man of sorrows who came and suffered. I would argue we\u2019re never more like Christ than when we\u2019re in our sufferings; right?\u2014the One who came and suffered for us.<\/p>\n<p>So those three things, immediately\u2014you know, I was just sitting there, with my son in the room with me\u2014and I\u2019m going, \u201cI\u2019ve got a lot to learn. I can grasp these with my head, but I\u2019ve got to get these into my heart.\u201d The Lord showed me a few other things that I knew would guide us that day. The presence of God in that fire was on display to everybody outside the furnace too: the satraps, the prefects, the governors. And the Lord made it clear: \u201cOther people are going to watch how y\u2019all go through this, so you need to be faithful.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and yet, it\u2019s interesting, as I read your story\u2014you know, you have these miracle moments\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014and your wife\u2019s able to give a kidney, and Caleb\u2019s going to have somewhat of a normal life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes, normal compared to the first two years.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and then you experience panic attacks and anxiety, which is <em>so <\/em>normal. What did that look like?<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Shelby:<\/strong> You\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson as they\u2019ve been talking with Erik Reed on <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>We\u2019re going to hear Erik\u2019s response in just a minute; but first, we would love to send you a copy of his book, <em>Uncommon Trust: Learning to Trust God When Life Doesn\u2019t Make Sense. <\/em>It\u2019s our gift to you when you make a donation of any amount this week to support the work of <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>and become a partner with us<em>. <\/em>You can give and become a partner at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call with your donation at 1-800-358-6329. That could be a one-time gift, or you could become a partner with us and give a recurring monthly gift. Again, the number is 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Alright, now back to Dave and Ann\u2019s conversation with Erik Reed.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> I had all the right ideas from the text; and yet, my heart would soon be under crippling panic attacks. I think that\u2019s another reason why I\u2019m saying it had to go from my head to my heart; because I could agree with those things, but those things weren\u2019t in my bones yet\u2014to <em>trust <\/em>that God is with us, and that that\u2019s <em>enough<\/em>\u2014it wasn\u2019t in my bones yet, so I was still fearful; I was still worried.<\/p>\n<p>Everything was still about: \u201cWhat\u2019s going to happen tomorrow?\u201d \u201cWhat\u2019s going to happen next month?\u201d \u201cIs he going to survive to get a transplant?\u201d \u201cWhat happens if he gets the transplant, and it doesn\u2019t last long?\u201d Because here\u2019s what we knew\/we knew from the homework we had to do: his life would be forever affected. There\u2019s no reset at this point; one transplant isn\u2019t going to last a lifetime, which means, at some point, that kidney would fail. We\u2019d be back in the boat of needing dialysis until we got another kidney.<\/p>\n<p>All the questions of: \u201cWe almost ran out of dialysis options this time. Are we going to even be able to do dialysis?\u201d and \u201cWho\u2019s going to give him a kidney?\u201d All those questions about a future that you don\u2019t control started crippling my heart. I had <em>never<\/em> dealt with anxiety; I had never dealt with panic attacks in my life. I didn\u2019t even know\u2014I thought I was going crazy\u2014I didn\u2019t even know what was happening to me. I thought I was having a heart attack, driving down the road. I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m too young to have a heart attack; that can\u2019t be it!\u201d [Laughter] But my heart was about to beat out of my chest; you know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s what it felt like.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> I pulled over on the side of the road, and I called my wife [while] on the interstate. I was like, \u201cI don\u2019t know what\u2019s happening to my heart. I\u2019m sweating; it\u2019s 30 degrees outside. And my heart is beating out of my chest.\u201d She was like, \u201cGo to the hospital! I don\u2019t know.\u201d She didn\u2019t know what was happening either.<\/p>\n<p>I learned soon: \u201cOh, that\u2019s a panic attack.\u201d I would irrationally have those for years ahead: out of nowhere, they would happen.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> What\u2019s really interesting, when I hear you say that, so many of us think believers don\u2019t have those.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Oh, mercy!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cPastors certainly don\u2019t have panic attacks.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> But there you were; anxiety is real!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> And I was ashamed of it. Once I learned what it was, for a while, I never told anybody; because I was like, \u201cI don\u2019t want anybody to think I\u2019m crazy!\u201d\u2014you know? \u201cI don\u2019t want anybody to think, \u2018Oh, wow! He\u2019s a wreck! He doesn\u2019t have his life together.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And then, I started to realize, \u201cOh, actually, a lot of people struggle with this.\u201d What would begin to unfold in the years ahead would be, not only learning to deal with that, but learning to get under the root of why I was having them. I didn\u2019t want to treat symptoms; I wanted to get to the root. So much of my anxiety was driven by leaning on my own understanding: trying to make sense of what was happening\/what was going to happen, trying to control and cling to what the future was that I didn\u2019t have any ability to direct. That\u2019s a hard thing to do when it\u2019s your son, and his future, and his health.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, I think what you said was you were learning to trust God; but you hadn\u2019t learned to trust Him in your <em>bones<\/em> yet.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes; yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> And I think that\u2019s where a lot of people are\u2014hearing that\/thinking\u2014\u201cI haven\u2019t learned that either<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cI need to know how to do that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cAnd we\u2019ve got to find out!\u201d We\u2019ve all quoted what you said\u2014Proverbs 3: \u201cTrust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding,\u201d\u2014we don\u2019t know what that looks like. We don\u2019t have time for you to do it, so we\u2019ve got to bring you back.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Okay; I\u2019d be happy to come back!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Shelby:<\/strong> You\u2019ve been listening to <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>If you know of anyone who needs to hear a conversation like the one Dave and Ann had with Erik Reed, you can share it from wherever you get your podcasts. And while you\u2019re there, it would really help if you would rate and review us.<\/p>\n<p>So how do you answer the theological questions of a child, who has gone through what Erik\u2019s son went through? We\u2019re going to hear how Erik handled those difficult questions tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We\u2019ll see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2022 FamilyLife. 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Erik Reed knows well the searing anger toward someone who's changed your life forever. He retraces his path toward forgiving the unforgivable.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/flministries\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2022-04-26.pdf","transcript_content":"<p><strong>Erik: <\/strong>All of those questions about a future that you don\u2019t control started crippling my heart. I had <em>never<\/em> dealt with anxiety; I had never dealt with panic attacks in my life. I didn\u2019t even know\u2014I thought I was going crazy; I didn\u2019t even know what was happening to me\u2014I thought I was having a heart attack, driving down the road. I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m too young to have a heart attack; that can\u2019t be it!\u201d [Laughter] But my heart was about to beat out of my chest; you know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s what it felt like.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> I pulled over on the side of the road, and I called my wife [while] on the interstate. I was like, \u201cI don\u2019t know what\u2019s happening to my heart. I\u2019m sweating; it\u2019s 30 degrees outside. And my heart is beating out of my chest.\u201d She was like, \u201cGo to the hospital! I don\u2019t know.\u201d She didn\u2019t know what was happening either.<\/p>\n<p>I learned soon: \u201cOh, that\u2019s a panic attack.\u201d I would irrationally have those for years ahead: out of nowhere, they would happen.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> So not too long ago, I sat in a diner with a good friend of mine, who\u2019s a dad. His daughter was in Oxford High School, walking down the hall, when one of her classmates started shooting kids in the hallway. I knew his daughter was at Oxford High School; I didn\u2019t know the details that she actually saw the shooter, realized it was a shooting, and ran out of the school, got in her car and drove home.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> And this is a friend of yours that you coached with\/coached football with.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I coached high school football with him for a decade almost. His question to me is: \u201cHow do I trust God? How do <em>we<\/em> trust God? How do I help my daughter trust God in the middle of this kind of tragedy?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014when she has seen friends shot, and she\u2019s asking the question: \u201cHow does a good God allow this?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and her biggest thing was\u2014she\u2019s still afraid\u2014it\u2019s hard for her to shut the door at night and even sleep in her bedroom as, I think, she\u2019s a junior in high school. You know, that tragedy, like any tragedy, rocks the world. It rocks non-believers, who say, \u201cThat\u2019s why I can\u2019t believe\u201d; and believers, like us, say, \u201cYes, that\u2019s the reality of the world we live in.\u201d There are no easy answers to that question.<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019ve been discussing that already with Erik Reed, who\u2019s back in the studio with us\u2014a pastor\u2014and a man who wrote a book called <em>Uncommon Trust<\/em>. So if we\u2019re going to find somebody who can help us understand: \u201cHow do we trust God in this situation?\u201d Erik, you\u2019re the guy. Welcome back to FamilyLife.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes, I\u2019m not sure if I\u2019m the guy; but I\u2019m certainly a fellow traveler, trying to figure it out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and obviously, we\u2019ve already talked about you as a pastor, husband, three kids.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> And on our first episode, we talked about\u2014and I want to take us back there; we don\u2019t have to go through the whole story; because, again, if you missed yesterday, go listen to it, because Erik told us the whole story\u2014but one of the things that was <em>fascinating<\/em> about <em>your<\/em> tragedy is, when Caleb is born, there\u2019s a surgery that can be done that you think is going to make everything okay.<\/p>\n<p>I never got to ask you this question before: it\u2019s like, \u201cOkay, so the <em>doctor<\/em> botches the surgery\/makes a mistake,\u201d\u2014that, in my mind, is even harder\u2014it's like things in life happen that are out of our control; and all you can say is: \u201cIt\u2019s a natural disaster,\u201d or \u201cSomething went wrong,\u201d\u2014but when a human mistake causes tragedy\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014not only in your life, but in your son\u2019s life\u2014it feels like it\u2019s even harder to understand. Talk about your feelings in that moment. I mean, how did you deal with, not only the sadness, but the anger I\u2019m guessing you had to feel?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Well, we would deal with bitterness, and resentment, and anger for a good year after the surgery. We would replay that conversation so many times; you know?\u2014his demeanor, his attitude\u2014all the things\u2014every retelling, you know, he became more of a monster in the story.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, I bet.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> For our listeners, who maybe haven\u2019t heard yesterday, the doctor unknowingly removed <em>both<\/em> kidneys.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> And so\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014the bad kidney and the good kidney.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014your newborn son is left without kidneys, and he has to be on dialysis.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> And he looked as if he [the doctor] were completely indifferent\u2014you know, no remorse; no empathy\u2014so you know, honestly, we grew to hate him. We were so shattered. Every time we would watch our son struggle\u2014every time he was sick; every time we would have to go back to the hospital; every time we were in a surgery waiting room, eager to hear a surgeon come out and say, \u201cIt went okay,\u201d and still wondering, \u201cDid it <em>really <\/em>go okay?\u201d\u2014we would go back to that moment and that man.<\/p>\n<p>I remember having dreams about: \u201cWhat would I do if I got to run into him?\u201d You know, I was in the army; so I wasn\u2019t always a pastor; you know? [Laughter] So there were times when I was like, \u201cBoy! If I found him out\u2014just out\u2014what would I do?\u201d\u2014you know? I couldn\u2019t stand him. We even had family talking about: \u201cLet\u2019s find out where he lives\u201d; you know? It got to <em>that<\/em> place.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wow!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> And I knew, \u201cNow, this is not healthy. This is not healthy for our hearts,\u201d\u2014forget healthy, legally; [Laughter] forget jail time!\u2014I mean, \u201cThis is not good for our souls!\u201d And it wasn\u2019t. It was so\/you know, bitterness and resentment are like drinking poison; every little sip is killing you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> But it gives us a glimpse into how angry and how\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> It\u2019s real!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014I mean, you have a name for the person that caused this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> It isn\u2019t something out there; it\u2019s like: \u201cI know\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes; it\u2019s not abstract\u2014this is a real person; it\u2019s a face\u2014and it\u2019s a son, who is living out the implications of it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; you\u2019re looking at him every day.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u2014every day.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> So how long? What did you do?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> So over the course of that year, finally reaching the end of what I knew wasn\u2019t healthy, I started to tell my wife: \u201cWe\u2019ve got to figure this out. We\u2019ve got to get to a place, where our hearts can forgive him.\u201d Forgiveness is all over the Bible. It\u2019s like you can\u2019t even read the New Testament without hearing Jesus say something about forgiveness. And it\u2019s <em>all <\/em>terrible stuff when you\u2019re hating somebody! [Laughter] You know, when you\u2019re hating somebody, and then Jesus says, \u201cForgive as you\u2019ve been forgiven.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cLove your enemies!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u201cIf you <em>don\u2019t<\/em>, you won\u2019t be forgiven your sins.\u201d You\u2019re like, \u201cNooo!\u201d You know, Peter says, \u201cHow many times should we forgive somebody that\u2019s hurt us? Seven times?\u201d And Jesus says, \u201cNo, I tell you 70 times 7.\u201d He\u2019s not telling you to do the math; He\u2019s saying it\u2019s endless.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> You forgive; you forgive indefinitely.<\/p>\n<p>And then He tells a parable about a king who forgave a lesser servant a great debt. And then that lesser servant goes out and holds over the head of an even lesser servant a lesser debt. The king hears about it and actually puts the debt back on him. Then Jesus ends that whole story\/that whole parable by saying, \u201cSo be it with you if you don\u2019t forgive those who\u2019ve hurt you.\u201d And I\u2019m just like, \u201cWhew.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I had to start grappling with: \u201cOkay; what does forgiveness look like?\u201d Here\u2019s what I realized: \u201cForgiveness has nothing to do with the person\u201d; because the reality is he [the doctor] wasn\u2019t asking for our forgiveness. We may never have the chance to see him, face to face, to give him forgiveness. \u201cForgiveness had everything to do with our hearts before God,\u201d\u2014it could be said like this\u2014\u201cForgiveness always begins, vertically, ever before it ever goes out horizontally.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And the way that we finally came to a place\u2014and it wasn\u2019t a light switch, alright?\u2014it wasn\u2019t like flipping it on and flipping it off; forgiveness was a process. It was a process of going, vertically to God, to say, \u201cYou have forgiven me infinitely more than I\u2019ve ever been asked to forgive another\u201d; and really feeling that.<\/p>\n<p>I think, as Christians, it\u2019s like, \u201cYes, God\u2019s forgiven us of our sins.\u201d But it\u2019s like, \u201cDo you really understand the gravity of that? What have you been forgiven? What have you been rescued from?\u201d I mean, I deserve eternal judgment; my life has not been lived in righteousness. If there\u2019s a getting in on your own account, I\u2019m going to be at the bottom of the list. So as I look, vertically, at the grace and mercy of God in forgiving me through Christ, I\u2019m not being asked to do anything more than Christ has done for me. In fact, I\u2019m actually being asked to do a lot less.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> And so I had to really keep preaching that to my heart over, and over, and over before I could get to a place, where I really could say, \u201cI forgive him; I forgive this man.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It was a process for me and my wife together. It was a process, then, that we had to lead our family through, because our bitterness just echoed out to everyone else. We had to say, \u201cGuys, this is not honoring to God. He\u2019s given us so much grace and so much mercy, so we\u2019re not being asked to do something that we haven\u2019t been recipients of.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That process led us to a place of forgiving the doctor, genuinely, in our hearts. Truth be told, it\u2019s not one time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> We have to keep choosing to forgive.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You get triggered, and\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. Even as I sit here before you, let my mind wander off into:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>everything that surgery cost our family;<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<ul>\n<li>when I\u2019m at my son\u2019s grave with my daughters, and we\u2019re talking about his life\u2014if I let my mind wander off into\u2014\u201cYou know, he could possibly be here today if that surgery hadn\u2019t happened.\u201d<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>It doesn\u2019t take much for bitterness and resentment to come back.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> So forgiveness is a choice that you have to <em>keep<\/em> making. That became our mantra; it\u2019s like, \u201cWe\u2019re going to keep forgiving. We\u2019re going to keep choosing to forgive.\u201d Anytime our mind starts focusing, horizontally, on all that he did, we\u2019re going to send them back, vertically, to all that Christ has done for us. That\u2019s the only way that we can give forgiveness: is it has to come from above.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Were you able to see if Caleb was able to forgive him\u2014your son?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Absolutely, yes! This was a process: from the time he was little, his whole life, this was a conversation we were having\u2014talking about suffering, and sovereignty, and forgiveness, and trusting God\u2019s plans for your life\u2014it was mandatory! It could not <em>not <\/em>be part of the conversation with his whole life, because we were going to have to explain to him why he was different from his friends: \u201cWhy has he got this feeding tube in his stomach?\u201d \u201cWhy does he have all these scars on his chest?\u201d \u201cWhy does he have to take these medicines every day?\u201d You know, \u201cWhy does he have to do all these things that are normal to him, but then he sees his friends, and he's like, \u2018Oh, y\u2019all don\u2019t have feeding tubes in your stomach?\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I mean, we just had to raise him, understanding, \u201cHey, this is your story, and this is what is so unique about you. This is how God has worked in your life.\u201d Caleb, fortunately, never had the issue of having to forgive him, because he just understood God had his life in His hands, even a surgical mistake.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019m also imagining that watching his mom and dad\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014being able to forgive the doctor was a <em>powerful<\/em> model for him.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes; so a fascinating story that we never anticipated: one day, after finishing dialysis in the hospital\u2014Caleb had not had a transplant yet; he was almost two\u2014it was getting close to time, where it was like, \u201cWe\u2019re running out of time. He needs a transplant.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Just for our listeners, who maybe listened to the first one, we kind of left them on a cliffhanger\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014like, \u201cWait! So what happened?\u201d You decided, \u201cWe want him to live; we\u2019ll do whatever it takes.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u201cWe\u2019re going forward\u201d; yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> So at two, he had a kidney transplant.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> He ended up getting a kidney transplant. He was on a list forever\u2014right?\u2014a national registry. We <em>never<\/em> got a phone call. Everybody got tested; me and Katrina got tested; neither one of us were a match. And he was having to have new surgeries all the time for new catheters, because his catheters would clot off. We were running out of spots for catheters. It was getting\u2014literally, the last one he got, the surgeon was like, \u201cI don\u2019t know if we\u2019ll get another one in,\u201d\u2014which is terrifying!<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s like, \u201cWell, we don\u2019t have surgery scheduled already, so what are our options?\u201d\u2014you know? And then, they retested us in a moment of desperation. My wife came back as a match; she was not previously a match.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s miraculous.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> It\u2019s unbelievable! It\u2019s unbelievable. So my wife ended up being the donor for his transplant when he was two years old. Right before that surgery happened, we were there for dialysis. I was coming down the elevator. I\u2019m holding Caleb in my arms, and the elevator door opens; and it\u2019s the surgeon who took his kidney out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014standing right in front of you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> I hadn\u2019t seen him in two years.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Ugh!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> He was standing, face to face. It was one of those moments, where, you know, if you see somebody, you like try to\u2014like you wanted to look away and pretend like you didn\u2019t see each other?\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u2014we both tried to do that, but we were literally, face to face, in an open elevator; there was nowhere to go. I attempt to walk one direction, and he\u2019s like going the same direction. We even do the little dance, where it\u2019s like you\u2019re trying\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> No!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u2014and then, finally, it was like, \u201cOkay, this is so awkward; we\u2019re going to have to acknowledge each other.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t like you were just some patient\u2014he knew when he saw your eyes\u2014the same thing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Oh, yes; yes. And so, actually, I asked him\/I said, \u201cCan I talk to you for a second?\u201d We actually stepped out and into the lobby.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014with your son still in your arms?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Caleb was right here in my arms. I looked at him, and I said, \u201cI just want you to know that my family and I forgive you for what happened.\u201d He broke down, crying, in the lobby.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> And I broke down, crying, after that. Of course, I had over-hydrated tear ducts that day; so it was one of those rare exceptions. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>And listen, we forgave him, even if we never saw him again; but what it showed me was that he had actually carried a deep burden as well. We found out later he was a Christian surgeon. He had actually done all kinds of missionary work on children, who could never have care. Of course, it was like, \u201cOf course, that\u2019s the case! [Laughter] Of course!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> And you had probably had never considered the nights that <em>he <\/em>had been up, just beating himself up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> No! Because, you know, when you\u2019re bitter, you don\u2019t <em>want<\/em> to consider the other side; you know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> And so, you know, with some time and some maturity, hopefully, I\u2019m able to look back and go, \u201cThere\u2019s no telling why he came across that day the way he did.\u201d We were hurt\u2014we may have heard even things\u2014you know, it\u2019s like you just can\u2019t even trust what you perceived on that day to be completely accurate. But even so, he broke down; and he told me\/he said, \u201cYou have no idea how much that means to hear.\u201d And that\u2019s the last time I ever saw him.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> But it was transformative for me; because it reminded me that we, often, make people into monsters. They\u2019re just people; you know? They\u2019re just people too. He made a mistake, and he <em>felt<\/em> that mistake all the time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Just think how different that moment would have been if you were bitter;\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Absolutely!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014and you opened the elevator door, and there he is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> If that happened to me before, I don\u2019t know <em>what <\/em>I\u2019m saying to him or doing to him.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s so sweet of God to connect you guys to free you both up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> He needed that freedom.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> And for us, we had forgiven him; but you talk about just the weight off your shoulders\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u2014to be able to say that to him\u2014to look him in the face and to go, \u201cWe forgive you.\u201d To see his face just break in front of me; it was a powerful lesson.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> It is a picture of the gospel.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> It is; that\u2019s exactly right. Forgiveness is all about the gospel. You can only forgive by the power of the gospel; right? Christ\u2019s forgiveness to you is how you can ever forgive another person.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, and what you did\u2014and as you said, you\u2019re still doing\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Still choosing to have to do!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014is not possible apart from the power of God, I don\u2019t think.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> One hundred percent.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, you can\u2019t get there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Well, if you\u2019re hoping that somebody will be forgivable; [Laughter] right?\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> \u2014that they\u2019re going to come <em>begging<\/em> for mercy and forgiveness; that they\u2019re going to come to their senses of what they\u2019ve done. There are no conditions that Jesus puts on our forgiving\u2014so when you always put it on the <em>other<\/em> to be <em>forgivable<\/em>\u2014I think you\u2019re going to find yourself withholding forgiveness or finding a lot of excuses to withhold forgiveness.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> There are some people, who will never want your forgiveness, who you need to forgive.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, if God did that to us, we\u2019re still not forgiven.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Exactly! That\u2019s exactly right!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> We\u2019ve <em>never<\/em> gotten to the place where we\u2019re forgivable!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> We were never forgivable; that\u2019s right! [Laughter][<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> What about the person, who maybe just stayed angry with God?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes; I think that\u2019s a really good question. So going back to when I was, with my Bible in hand and notebook in hand, that day and I got to the book of Daniel. The very first thing that happens in Daniel 1 is God allows for Nebuchadnezzar to go in and take Israel and turns them upside down. These young men, and all the best and brightest of the land, get ripped, kicking and screaming, out of their homes, away from their families. Everything changed in a moment: new identities, new names, new language, new everything.<\/p>\n<p>I remember reading that; and I just stopped and I was like\/that\u2019s how I felt\u2014our world is turned upside down; everything has changed now\u2014I felt I could identify with these people. I kept reading; and you eventually, get introduced to Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego. You see the command to bow down, and they won\u2019t do it. All of a sudden, they get summoned to Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar, you know, says, \u201cThis is it; this is your chance. Here\u2019s the fiery furnace. You can feel the heat on your face. Bow down and worship me and live.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And their response to him\u2014it exploded into life when they said\u2014\u201cThe God whom we serve is able to save us.\u201d And then I read the rest of the verse; and I was <em>wrecked<\/em> when I read, \u201cBut even if He doesn\u2019t\u2014but if not\u2014we will still not bow down and serve you.\u201d The thing that I kept reading in the Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego story was, after they were thrown into the furnace\u2014He is in it\u2014the fourth figure in the fire.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> [Singing] \u201cThere is another in the fire!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> I would sing it with you, but your listeners should be spared that. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>You know, for somebody who had never read that, you know, there was no clich\u00e9 for me to say, \u201cGod\u2019s in this furnace right now; He\u2019s with us.\u201d He has the power to rescue them, and keep them from ever going in it; yet, allows them to go in it, only to show Himself to be there. What\u2019s really fascinating to me, too, is that\u2014it\u2019s not like God decided to show up\u2014God was always there!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s a great point.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> He was always with them! But fascinatingly, He became visible to them in the fire; and so they saw Him.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> They saw Him in the fire. He was always there, but the fire made Him visible. I think that\u2019s true in life: God is always with us; but it\u2019s in our suffering and sorrows that He is, I believe, most visible to us\u2014because \u201cMan of sorrows [Isaiah 53:3]\u201d\u2014Jesus is the man of sorrows who came and suffered. I would argue we\u2019re never more like Christ than when we\u2019re in our sufferings; right?\u2014the One who came and suffered for us.<\/p>\n<p>So those three things, immediately\u2014you know, I was just sitting there, with my son in the room with me\u2014and I\u2019m going, \u201cI\u2019ve got a lot to learn. I can grasp these with my head, but I\u2019ve got to get these into my heart.\u201d The Lord showed me a few other things that I knew would guide us that day. The presence of God in that fire was on display to everybody outside the furnace too: the satraps, the prefects, the governors. And the Lord made it clear: \u201cOther people are going to watch how y\u2019all go through this, so you need to be faithful.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and yet, it\u2019s interesting, as I read your story\u2014you know, you have these miracle moments\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014and your wife\u2019s able to give a kidney, and Caleb\u2019s going to have somewhat of a normal life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes, normal compared to the first two years.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and then you experience panic attacks and anxiety, which is <em>so <\/em>normal. What did that look like?<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Shelby:<\/strong> You\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson as they\u2019ve been talking with Erik Reed on <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>We\u2019re going to hear Erik\u2019s response in just a minute; but first, we would love to send you a copy of his book, <em>Uncommon Trust: Learning to Trust God When Life Doesn\u2019t Make Sense. <\/em>It\u2019s our gift to you when you make a donation of any amount this week to support the work of <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>and become a partner with us<em>. <\/em>You can give and become a partner at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call with your donation at 1-800-358-6329. That could be a one-time gift, or you could become a partner with us and give a recurring monthly gift. Again, the number is 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Alright, now back to Dave and Ann\u2019s conversation with Erik Reed.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> I had all the right ideas from the text; and yet, my heart would soon be under crippling panic attacks. I think that\u2019s another reason why I\u2019m saying it had to go from my head to my heart; because I could agree with those things, but those things weren\u2019t in my bones yet\u2014to <em>trust <\/em>that God is with us, and that that\u2019s <em>enough<\/em>\u2014it wasn\u2019t in my bones yet, so I was still fearful; I was still worried.<\/p>\n<p>Everything was still about: \u201cWhat\u2019s going to happen tomorrow?\u201d \u201cWhat\u2019s going to happen next month?\u201d \u201cIs he going to survive to get a transplant?\u201d \u201cWhat happens if he gets the transplant, and it doesn\u2019t last long?\u201d Because here\u2019s what we knew\/we knew from the homework we had to do: his life would be forever affected. There\u2019s no reset at this point; one transplant isn\u2019t going to last a lifetime, which means, at some point, that kidney would fail. We\u2019d be back in the boat of needing dialysis until we got another kidney.<\/p>\n<p>All the questions of: \u201cWe almost ran out of dialysis options this time. Are we going to even be able to do dialysis?\u201d and \u201cWho\u2019s going to give him a kidney?\u201d All those questions about a future that you don\u2019t control started crippling my heart. I had <em>never<\/em> dealt with anxiety; I had never dealt with panic attacks in my life. I didn\u2019t even know\u2014I thought I was going crazy\u2014I didn\u2019t even know what was happening to me. I thought I was having a heart attack, driving down the road. I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m too young to have a heart attack; that can\u2019t be it!\u201d [Laughter] But my heart was about to beat out of my chest; you know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s what it felt like.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> I pulled over on the side of the road, and I called my wife [while] on the interstate. I was like, \u201cI don\u2019t know what\u2019s happening to my heart. I\u2019m sweating; it\u2019s 30 degrees outside. And my heart is beating out of my chest.\u201d She was like, \u201cGo to the hospital! I don\u2019t know.\u201d She didn\u2019t know what was happening either.<\/p>\n<p>I learned soon: \u201cOh, that\u2019s a panic attack.\u201d I would irrationally have those for years ahead: out of nowhere, they would happen.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> What\u2019s really interesting, when I hear you say that, so many of us think believers don\u2019t have those.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Oh, mercy!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cPastors certainly don\u2019t have panic attacks.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> But there you were; anxiety is real!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> And I was ashamed of it. Once I learned what it was, for a while, I never told anybody; because I was like, \u201cI don\u2019t want anybody to think I\u2019m crazy!\u201d\u2014you know? \u201cI don\u2019t want anybody to think, \u2018Oh, wow! He\u2019s a wreck! He doesn\u2019t have his life together.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And then, I started to realize, \u201cOh, actually, a lot of people struggle with this.\u201d What would begin to unfold in the years ahead would be, not only learning to deal with that, but learning to get under the root of why I was having them. I didn\u2019t want to treat symptoms; I wanted to get to the root. So much of my anxiety was driven by leaning on my own understanding: trying to make sense of what was happening\/what was going to happen, trying to control and cling to what the future was that I didn\u2019t have any ability to direct. That\u2019s a hard thing to do when it\u2019s your son, and his future, and his health.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, I think what you said was you were learning to trust God; but you hadn\u2019t learned to trust Him in your <em>bones<\/em> yet.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes; yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> And I think that\u2019s where a lot of people are\u2014hearing that\/thinking\u2014\u201cI haven\u2019t learned that either<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cI need to know how to do that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cAnd we\u2019ve got to find out!\u201d We\u2019ve all quoted what you said\u2014Proverbs 3: \u201cTrust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding,\u201d\u2014we don\u2019t know what that looks like. We don\u2019t have time for you to do it, so we\u2019ve got to bring you back.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Erik:<\/strong> Okay; I\u2019d be happy to come back!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Shelby:<\/strong> You\u2019ve been listening to <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>If you know of anyone who needs to hear a conversation like the one Dave and Ann had with Erik Reed, you can share it from wherever you get your podcasts. And while you\u2019re there, it would really help if you would rate and review us.<\/p>\n<p>So how do you answer the theological questions of a child, who has gone through what Erik\u2019s son went through? We\u2019re going to hear how Erik handled those difficult questions tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We\u2019ll see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2022 FamilyLife. 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