{"id":307472,"date":"2022-04-13T08:02:08","date_gmt":"2022-04-13T12:02:08","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/andrew-peterson-the-resurrection-letters\/"},"modified":"2022-04-13T08:02:08","modified_gmt":"2022-04-13T12:02:08","slug":"andrew-peterson-the-resurrection-letters","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/andrew-peterson-the-resurrection-letters\/","title":{"rendered":"Andrew Peterson: The Resurrection Letters"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Can seasons of darkness help us see more clearly than ever? Singer &#038; author Andrew Peterson describes his path through depression to resurrection.<\/p>\n<p>Show Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tAndrew Peterson&#8217;s 3 Albums for Resurrection Letters<br \/>\n \tFind resources from this podcast at shop.familylife.com.<br \/>\n \tFind more content and resources on the FamilyLife&#8217;s app!<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Can seasons of darkness help us see more clearly than ever? Singer &amp; author Andrew Peterson describes his path through depression to resurrection.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2022-04-13.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:21:40","filesize":"19.84M","filesize_raw":"20798630","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822],"tags":[7072],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[3661],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307472","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","tag-andrew-peterson","cwp_profile-andrew-peterson","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307472\/andrew-peterson-the-resurrection-letters","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307472\/andrew-peterson-the-resurrection-letters","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"KWr03Slux6\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/andrew-peterson-the-resurrection-letters\/\">Andrew Peterson: The Resurrection Letters<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/andrew-peterson-the-resurrection-letters\/embed\/#?secret=KWr03Slux6\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Andrew Peterson: The Resurrection Letters&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"KWr03Slux6\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Can seasons of darkness help us see more clearly than ever? Singer &amp; author Andrew Peterson describes his path through depression to resurrection.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2022-04-13.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> A lot of us aren\u2019t super good at dwelling on the dark parts. At church, we tend to kind of brush over that. There\u2019s a whole theology of suffering and of lament in Scripture. Lament needs a place in our worship services, I really think; and silence needs a place, but also celebration and rejoicing. It\u2019s all part of the deal.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI didn\u2019t grow up in a church that did this; but later in life, we ended up in a more liturgical church that celebrates Holy Week to the nines. I <em>love<\/em> starting with Palm Sunday, it\u2019s like, \u201cOkay, here we go. [Laughter] We\u2019re about to walk through the story in a pretty intense way.\u201d On Wednesday of Holy Week we would have a Tenebrae service. It was done in a way that ended with darkness: you blow out a candle; you read a Scripture; you remember how broken the world is, but you don\u2019t provide the answer yet. Learning to sit in the grief of the brokenness of the world makes Easter morning all the more precious; doesn\u2019t it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife\u2014 <\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong><em> \u2014Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve got Andrew Peterson back in the studio. Andrew, welcome back to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Thanks for having me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We\u2019re coming up on the critical historical moment in the whole Christian faith.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014the most wonderful.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Everything hinges and rises and falls on this one moment in history: the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Obviously, that\u2019s something that you believe in and have written songs about <em>Resurrection Letters<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014albums about<em>.<\/em> \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Talk about resurrection and why\u2014I mean, not too many people have written three different albums on that one topic; but you did\u2014the question is: \u201cWhy?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> There is this book called <em>Surprised by Hope<\/em> by N.T. Wright. I don\u2019t know if you guys have read it. Some people don\u2019t agree with everything he says, but this book in particular\u2014I haven\u2019t really talked to anybody who said, \u201cHe\u2019s wrong about it,\u201d\u2014[Laughter]\u2014it\u2019s this book about the resurrection and what it really meant to the early church and what it means for us now. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSomehow, I missed it, growing up in the church. I just didn\u2019t really understand the significance of what it was that Jesus did and what that means for us: this idea that we also have this bodily resurrection that has been promised to us\/that He is the first fruits of that whole thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI just\/I <em>love<\/em> Easter. I love it because, in the northern Hemisphere at least, we get to see all of creation resurrect. It\u2019s one of the coolest things to me that we get to celebrate Lent and Easter in this season, where the earth is going from very dead-looking to daffodils poking out of the ground, these little trumpets of the resurrection. It\u2019s like all of creation is preaching this sermon to us, and I just want to embrace that whole heartedly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s one of the great joys of my life is that I think this is our fourth year now that we\u2019re touring around, and proclaiming that truth and saying, \u201cKeep your eyes peeled, because the thing that\u2019s happening all around you\/the way\u2014there\u2019s a song my friend wrote that says \u201cThe hills remember green again\u201d\u2014as that happens, it\u2019s this <em>great<\/em> reminder that Christ conquered death and that we also will through His power.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAll of that is like\u2014the centrality of it\u2014was something that I missed. I\u2019ve read plenty of\u2014C.S. Lewis talked about it\u2014every sermon in the book of Acts mentions the resurrection as the centerpiece of the thing, like, \u201cIf that thing didn\u2019t happen, why are we even here?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe short version of the story is: maybe 12 years ago\/13 years ago, I wrote an album\u2014usually, you put the songs together; and I look for some connecting thread, like, \u201cWhat\u2019s the theme?\u201d\u2014and I noticed all the songs were, in one way or another, about the coming resurrection or this idea that the resurrection of Jesus sent these shock waves into creation, and we\u2019re experiencing those. Those songs were about that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI went to the label; and I was like, \u201cI want to call it <em>Resurrection Letters<\/em>, but I realize I think I <em>should<\/em> have written an album about Jesus\u2019s resurrection\u2014that this would be the answer\u2014so I want to call this one <em>Resurrection Letters, Volume II<\/em>.\u201d They were like, \u201cWhat are you talking about?\u201d I was like, \u201c<em>Star Wars<\/em>, man; we\u2019re just going to go do the prequel later.\u201d [Laughter] So we called it <em>Resurrection Letters II<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTen years later was when I finally had the guts to try to write the songs about Jesus\u2019s resurrection. It was this <em>huge<\/em>, scary project. But eventually, we finished writing <em>Resurrection Letters, Volume I<\/em>; and then I was like, \u201cWell, that opens with Jesus\u2019s heart beating in the tomb. I feel like we need to, at least, acknowledge the crucifixion; so we went and wrote <em>Resurrection Letters Prologue<\/em>. The whole thing holds together as: the crucifixion, followed by the resurrection of Jesus, followed by glorying in what is coming to us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Take us back. You said that you never really got it, growing up. Talk about when you first got it and what happened.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> I keep talking about C.S. Lewis. It was reading the Narnia books and <em>The Great Divorc<\/em>e. I don\u2019t know if you guys know <em>The Great Divo<\/em>rce: great, great book. It kind of began the process of making me realize that\u2014I think Lewis said that the people who did the most in God\u2019s name for this world were the people who were thinking the most about the next one\u2014this idea that keeping your eyes fixed on what is to come changes the way you behave now. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI loved that idea. But even when I listen to my older records, I can hear this kind of like \u201cI\u2019ll fly away\u201d-kind of theology that still was missing the puzzle piece that the New Jerusalem descends and God makes His home with us again; that\u2019s what Revelation tells us. That is like, \u201cThe good news is better than I thought it was.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt isn\u2019t just that Jesus died for us, paid for our sin, conquered death so that we could be in heaven. There was almost this: \u201cWhat for?\u201d kind of elephant in the room, as a kid. I was like, \u201cBut why; why would He do all of these things?\u201d And slowly realizing that the answer is because He loves this world. He loves His creation, and He made us to be stewards over it\u2014to rule over it and to take care of it in a proper way\u2014that was the puzzle piece that clicked into place and made me <em>so excited<\/em> about what\u2019s to come. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI talk to kids who, sometimes, are terrified of eternity. I don\u2019t know if you guys have ever talked to people like that, like the idea that we\u2019re just going to be in this disembodied state, floating around forever: \u201cWho wants to do that?!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think one of the\u2014I heard a theologian talk about how, in John 3:16 when it says, \u201cFor God so loved the world,\u201d that the\u2014I\u2019m no Greek scholar\u2014but the idea was that the word for \u201cthe world\u201d; I always assumed that meant the people in the world\u2014but it actually could be translated: \u201cFor God so loved His creation,\u201d which includes us; but it\u2019s <em>all<\/em> of His creation that He gave His only begotten Son. So He\u2019s in the process of redeeming creation and us. I\u2019m thrilled; you can see that I get excited right now. I get so worked up talking\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I love it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> \u2014because it just feels so\/it\u2019s like I just want to go back in time and tell 12-\/13-year-old Andrew that all that stuff that he aches to be true is more true than he can believe. It just fills in the blanks that were left in that typical cultural Southern Christianity that I grew up in.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Talk about\u2014I mean, if you\u2019re thinking about telling 12- and 13-year-old Andrew\u2014a lot of our listeners are parents, like us, who have experienced the radical transformation of the resurrection, not only of Christ, but of our own lives\u2014how do we teach that?\u2014translate that?\u2014pass that on? How did you try to do that with your own kids?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014besides having them listen to your albums. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Right; <em>making them<\/em> listen to my albums. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI can tell you one of the ways that I have tried to help my kids see it is through gardening. I went through a depression when I was like 40, and it lasted a few years; it was a really tough confusing season for me. It happened to coincide with this awakening to my love for taking care of the property where we live. I started keeping bees and trying to grow flowers. We have this cottage garden out front. A friend of mine gave us this 30-year garden plan; she\u2019s an English gardener, who gave us this really elaborate plan for our property. She was like, \u201cDon\u2019t try to do this all now; it will cost you a fortune. Just pick a little section and work on it every year.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was doing all of that work; and at some point, I began to realize that\u2014I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ve ever struggled with depression, but it doesn\u2019t really have a hard-end date\u2014I just realized one day that I was talking about it in the past tense; I was like, \u201cOh, whatever the thing was is kind of over now.\u201d I realized that the gardening\/the putting things in the ground embodied the metaphor for me. It was like I spent a lot of time feeling like God was mad at me\u2014that He was pushing my face into the dirt\u2014that He was punishing me for something I didn\u2019t even know I had done wrong, whatever it was. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember vividly going out into the garden with my daughter and taking a little seed and saying, \u201cHey, it\u2019s spring; we\u2019re going to plant some seeds.\u201d I took the seed, and I pushed its face into the dirt. [Laughter] I kind of wounded the earth in the process: I cut a hole in it and covered it over like a death. We would go out every day to wait for that new life to come breaking through. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was like\u2014that was when the light bulb began to come on for me that\u2014how much it means that: \u201cThe earth is the Lord\u2019s and the fullness thereof [Psalm 24:1]\u201d; that \u201cThe heavens declare His handiwork\u201d and His praise or whatever [Psalm 19:1]. Paul talks about, in Romans, that we\u2019re without excuse; because if you\u2019ve got your eyes peeled, you can see this truth showing up all the time [Romans, Chapter 1]. That, to me, was like, \u201cIf God didn\u2019t intend for our bodies to be resurrected one day, then why would He give us such a perfect metaphor for it?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou asked about how I impressed those things on my kids: I think trying to help them to live close to the earth and in a way that pays attention to God\u2019s creation\u2014to the fact that it is preaching to us\u2014kind of lays the groundwork for this widened imagination for what it means for us to, one day, die and be resurrected.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and there is the\u2014as you just\/that picture in the garden; and I\u2019m not a big garden guy\u2014but man, I could <em>see<\/em> the image. It made me think more of death than resurrection; but there is no resurrection without death. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe run from pain; we run from anything that feels like it\u2019s dying. Talk about that a little bit, because you have to embrace a little bit the death of the crucifixion before you can have resurrection. As a mom\/as a dad\u2014as a person\u2014how does that impact [us]?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> A lot of us aren\u2019t super good at dwelling on the dark parts\u2014right?\u2014at church, we tend to kind of brush over that. There\u2019s a whole theology of suffering and of lament in Scripture. Lament needs a place in our worship services, I really think; and silence needs a place, but also celebration and rejoicing. It\u2019s all part of the deal.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI didn\u2019t grow up in a church that did this; but later in life, we ended up in a more liturgical church that celebrates Holy Week to the nines. I <em>love<\/em> starting with Palm Sunday; it\u2019s like, \u201cOkay, here we go. [Laughter] We\u2019re about to walk through the story in a pretty intense way.\u201d On Wednesday of Holy Week, we would have a Tenebrae service. Have you guys ever heard of this?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We\u2019ve done it at our church.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> There\u2019s a zillion ways to do it. But at this church, it was done in a way that ended with darkness: you blow out a candle; you read a Scripture; you remember how broken the world is, but you don\u2019t provide the answer yet; because we\u2019re experiencing it in the wider context of this week. Learning to sit in the grief of the brokenness of the world makes Easter morning all the more precious; doesn\u2019t it? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s part of it: teaching our kids that we don\u2019t have to be afraid to lean into lament and into darkness; let the suffering do its work in us. The fact that you\u2019re suffering doesn\u2019t mean that you\u2019re doing anything wrong necessarily. It could mean that you\u2019re in the cave, because God loves you; <em>not<\/em> because He doesn\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Go back to that, Andrew, talking about that two-year time of depression; because a lot of us\/a lot of our listeners have gone through that. How has it marked you? How has it changed you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> I feel a lot of empathy with people who are going through that. Quite a few people came out of the woodwork when I wrote about it in <em>The God of the Garden<\/em>\u2014people I knew and some people who I didn\u2019t\u2014who have said, \u201cThank you for expressing this. It\u2019s not often that Christians talk a whole lot about that.\u201d I\u2019ve made some good friends out of the process. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut really, it\u2019s given me a better relationship to time. What I mean by that is that I\u2019m a very impatient person. But gardening\u2014like when I plant a tree now, I plant the tree and I\u2019m better at imagining what it\u2019s going to look like in 15 years\u2014now, I do work in the garden that I go, \u201cOkay, this isn\u2019t going to look great for a while. But I\u2019m going to do the work now, and I\u2019m going to trust that this plan is going to come to fruition.\u201d Ha, ha; pun intended. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I mean by that is that, when I am in those seasons of suffering, I\u2019m better now at holding onto the fact that this is not going to be forever. That\u2019s the great lie of depression, I think\u2014is that: \u201cThis is your life, and it will <em>always<\/em> be this way,\u201d\u2014and that\u2019s despair. It\u2019s a lack of imagination that, one day, some great good thing could fall into your lap; it\u2019s trusting that the Author of the story has good intentions for you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor me, it\u2019s like reading our kids stories when they were little, talking, listening to music\u2014great music by people, sometimes, who aren\u2019t even Christians to understand better what it feels like to really ache\u2014and then to show them that Jesus is stronger than all of that\/that they don\u2019t have to be afraid to engage with it, because there is a good coming. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnyway, I could talk about this for days. But one of the\/the last thing I would say about that is that I saw this theologian talking about <em>The Lord of the Rings<\/em> one time. He talked about how one of the main themes is the triumph of hope over despair in that story. Some of the characters despair; and one of them, Denethor, actually commits suicide because he thinks, \u201cHow can we ever defeat the Orcs? There\u2019s no way; there\u2019s too much darkness.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen Sam and Frodo find their way in\u2014I\u2019m going to spoil the ending for people\u2014but the ring ends up getting destroyed in a way that <em>nobody<\/em> could foresee. If you\u2019ve read that story for the first time, you would <em>never<\/em> guess that that\u2019s how it happens. What I <em>love<\/em> about it is that Frodo is not the hero of <em>The Lord of the Rings<\/em>, and Sam is not the hero of <em>The Lord of the Rings<\/em>. The author of the story is the hero of <em>The Lord of the Rings<\/em>, because providence is the thing that ended up working all of these threads together and allowed the ring to be destroyed in a way that the characters were unable to do on their own. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn that context, if we think of our own lives that way, we don\u2019t have to be the hero of our story; it\u2019s not our job to destroy the ring. It\u2019s our job to be obedient; walk into the darkness, trusting that the Author of the story is good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I think it\u2019s important what you\u2019ve actually modeled for our listeners, especially for parents, is <em>talking <\/em>about the darkness\u2014not hiding that\/not pretending you didn\u2019t struggle\u2014but actually, if we, as parents, could <em>talk<\/em> about that in our family room with our kids; I think we\u2019re afraid to do that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know when we would do a Good Friday service\u2014and we did it for 30 years\u2014we would walk out of Good Friday, like you talked about the Tenebrae: darkness\u2014I always\/I was in the planning of those services; I\u2019m like, \u201cWhat?! We\u2019re going to walk out? No, no, no!\u201d Everything in me is like\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014he wanted to give hope.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, everything in me [thought], \u201cWe can\u2019t let people walk out!\u201d But because we did\u2014and people are quiet; there\u2019s no talking; it\u2019s dark\u2014then you walk in Sunday, and the resurrection story has <em>so much more power<\/em> because you\u2019ve <em>experienced<\/em> the darkness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, as parents\u2014tell me if you agree, Andrew\u2014we need to talk about the darkness and the struggle so that, when we talk about the power of the resurrection, they feel it\/we feel it\u2014our family feels it in a way that\u2019s <em>powerful<\/em>\u2014because we\u2019ve experienced both extremes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Yes, I completely agree. I hope we haven\u2019t done it\u2014I feel like we\u2019ve always erred, Jamie and I, on the side of being open with our kids about what we\u2019re dealing with at whatever time. We\u2019ve had a few times when we\u2019ve let our friends in on some crisis that we\u2019re going through, and we\u2019ll mention in passing that our kids know about it; and they would be like, \u201cYou told your kids about this?\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cWell, yes. We would talk about it over dinner.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEspecially that season when I was in depression, I couldn\u2019t hide it; they <em>knew<\/em> something was wrong. The worst thing would have been for me to just pretend. Instead, they would say, \u201cWhat\u2019s going on?\u201d I would say, \u201cI don\u2019t know; I\u2019m just really sad.\u201d And that went on for about two years. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut they would also see Mom and Dad get up in the morning and go to church; and sometimes, stand there, unable to sing, when the songs were too happy\u2014which, by the way, as a person who has led music before\u2014I remember in that moment, whenever people would say, \u201cNow sing; let me hear you sing louder,\u201d I wanted to be like, \u201cIsn\u2019t it enough that I\u2019m here, man?\u201d [Laughter] Like, \u201cI showed up; let me off the hook.\u201d Maybe the people in the audience <em>need<\/em> to just be silent, and to listen, and to be present. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m kind of bouncing all over the place. But I was just thinking how, when somebody\u2019s in real crisis, it doesn\u2019t do a whole lot of good to tell him everything\u2019s going to be okay. What they need is somebody to just feel the pain with them; right?\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> \u2014and to just say, \u201cI\u2019m so sorry,\u201d and to weep with them. We get to do that; we get to grieve like those who have hope [1 Thessalonians 4:13]; right? I don\u2019t know exactly\u2014I messed up that quote\u2014but you know what I mean. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut we don\u2019t have to be afraid of grieving; we don\u2019t have to be afraid of trying to fix it all today. That goes for when you\u2019re trying to lead somebody to Jesus. Sometimes, we feel this great pressure to like: \u201cThis is the conversation, \u201cI\u2019ve got this <em>one<\/em> chance.\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cMan, it\u2019s going to be a <em>thousand<\/em> conversations; and it\u2019s going to be a thousand meals together, walking together.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s kind of what I\u2019m getting at when I talk about my relationship to time, like I\u2019m learning to be patient with the suffering and really give that seed time to germinate. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> The good news is that Easter is just around the corner, and that is our hope. The resurrection of Christ is always our hope as we keep our eyes on Him\u2014whether we\u2019re in a good place or a bad place\u2014to have Him at the center. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re just wondering, Andrew, could you pray for our listeners\/for all of us as we close and as Easter\u2019s approaching? Could you just pray for us?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Sure!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMost merciful God, we give You thanks and praise that, when we were still far off, You met us in Your Son and brought us home. Thank You so much for giving us such a good story. We pray that You would please come back soon. In Christ\u2019s name, Amen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave and Ann:<\/strong> Amen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[<em>Risen Indeed<\/em> playing]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> You\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Andrew Peterson on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. You\u2019ll find links to his album, <em>Resurrection Letters<\/em>, in today\u2019s show notes and at FamilyLifeToday.com.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you know of anyone who could benefit from today\u2019s conversation, we\u2019d love it if you would share this podcast wherever you get your podcasts. While you\u2019re there, it would really help us out if you\u2019d rate and review us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a listener-supported ministry; and this week, with your donation of any amount, we\u2019d love to send you a copy of the children\u2019s book, <em>God Made Me in His Image<\/em>,by Justin and Lindsey Holcomb, who we had on earlier this week. This is a great resource for parents helping children through issues of body image and the beauty of God\u2019s design. It\u2019s our gift to you when you make a one-time or recurring donation at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can give by picking up the phone and calling us at 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTomorrow, we\u2019re going to hear from two more musicians, Keith and Kristyn Getty. They helped write the modern hymn, <em>In Christ Alone<\/em>, which, of course, if you\u2019ve heard it, you know it\u2019s a beautiful and theologically-rich song. You\u2019ll see that\u2019s something they\u2019re very, very passionate about when you hear from them tomorrow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<sup>\u00a9<\/sup>Song: <em>Risen Indeed<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tArtist:\u00a0 Andrew Peterson\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAlbum: <em>Resurrection Letters, Volume I <\/em>(2018)by Andrew Petersonon Centricity Music\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2022 FamilyLife. 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