{"id":307464,"date":"2022-04-07T08:03:12","date_gmt":"2022-04-07T12:03:12","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/elyse-fitzpatrick-why-gender-is-more-and-less-than-you-thought\/"},"modified":"2022-04-07T08:03:12","modified_gmt":"2022-04-07T12:03:12","slug":"elyse-fitzpatrick-why-gender-is-more-and-less-than-you-thought","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/elyse-fitzpatrick-why-gender-is-more-and-less-than-you-thought\/","title":{"rendered":"Elyse Fitzpatrick: Why Gender is More and Less than You Thought"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>In discussing gender and the Bible, do we lose what matters most? Authors Elyse Fitzpatrick &#038; Eric Schumacher untangle what the Bible says and doesn&#8217;t.<\/p>\n<p>Show Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tFind resources from this podcast at shop.familylife.com.<br \/>\n \tFind more content and resources on the FamilyLife&#8217;s app!<br \/>\n \tHelp others find Familylife.\u00a0 Leave a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify.<br \/>\n \tCheck out all the Familylife&#8217;s on the FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In discussing gender and the Bible, do we lose what matters most? On FamilyLife Today, Dave &amp; Ann Wilson host authors Elyse Fitzpatrick &amp; Eric Schumacher&#8211;who untangle what the Bible says\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6and doesn&#8217;t.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2022-04-07.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:24:58","filesize":"22.86M","filesize_raw":"23967822","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848,2896,2873],"tags":[7068],"podcast_series":[8514],"cwp_profile":[3438,9619],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307464","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","category-lgbt","category-mental-and-emotional-issues","tag-elyse-fitzpatrick","podcast_series-elyse-fitzpatrick-jesus-and-gender","cwp_profile-elyse-fitzpatrick","cwp_profile-eric-schumacher","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307464\/elyse-fitzpatrick-why-gender-is-more-and-less-than-you-thought","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307464\/elyse-fitzpatrick-why-gender-is-more-and-less-than-you-thought","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"nIU3uyleTR\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/elyse-fitzpatrick-why-gender-is-more-and-less-than-you-thought\/\">Elyse Fitzpatrick: Why Gender is More and Less than You Thought<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/elyse-fitzpatrick-why-gender-is-more-and-less-than-you-thought\/embed\/#?secret=nIU3uyleTR\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Elyse Fitzpatrick: Why Gender is More and Less than You Thought&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"nIU3uyleTR\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2022-04-07.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2022-04-07.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Jesus has called us, together, to fulfill this Great Commission; and He has called us in a marriage to do that through our marriage. How do we display the glory of Jesus Christ crucified and risen, together, as partners in this?\u2014I\u2019m going to kill anything in me that gets in the way of that; I\u2019m going to sacrifice any dream\/any ambition for the sake of her to be able to be unified with me so that we can flourish together in God\u2019s purposes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We had this interesting experience happen one night at, like, three in the morning. Ann and I are upstairs in our bedroom asleep. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I wake up, because the TV was blaring <em>so loud<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014downstairs. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is at 3 am. None of our kids live in our home anymore. I hear the TV; and I\u2019m thinking, \u201cHow did the TV get on?\u201d I shake, Dave, like [whispering], \u201cDave, do you hear the TV? It is blasting!\u201d I said, \u201cDid you leave the TV on?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m like, \u201cNo; I mean, I turned it off. I have no idea why the TV is on at three in the morning.\u201d So then, tell them what you said. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I said, \u201cYou better go check that out!\u201d [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m like, \u201cNo, you go down there!\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You didn\u2019t tell me, \u201cNo.\u201d You didn\u2019t tell me to go down. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> When she said that, I\u2019m like, \u201cSomebody\u2019s in our house and turned on the TV.\u201d We literally looked at each other, like, \u201cWhat are we going to do?\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m not going.\u201d She\u2019s like, \u201cI\u2019m not going.\u201d We literally dialed 9-1-1. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014from our bed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019ve never done this in my life. I knew the front shutters were open. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I literally get the police on there; and I\u2019m like, \u201cSomebody is in our house downstairs. The TV is on; we don\u2019t know what\u2019s going on. Would you come?\u201d They are like, \u201cYes, we will come.\u201d I said, \u201cYou can look through the front window; you\u2019ll probably be able to see.\u201d We lie there in bed, waiting. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Really? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Sure enough. Finally, you could see some lights out in our cul-de-sac. The police call and they go, \u201cHey, you can come down. There is nobody in there; let us in the front door.\u201d We go, tiptoeing down. To this day, we don\u2019t know what happened. The TV just clicked on, glaring. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> He said\/the police said, \u201cThis happens <em>all<\/em> the time.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; they told us stories. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We\u2019re like, \u201cWhat?\u201d He goes, \u201cYes, it\u2019s usually a person, who has been drinking too much,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> They come in the wrong house. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cand they walk in the wrong home and turn on a TV.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. So anyway, you\u2019re like, \u201cWhy in the world did you just tell us this story?\u201d Because the question is: \u201cShould Dave have gone down? [Laughter] Why is it the man who always has to be the protector?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s just a fun way to get into a question about male and female\u2014protector; follower\/leader;\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and the roles. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014headship\/submission in marriage and family. We\u2019re a marriage and family ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We need to talk about: \u201cHow do you understand male and female, husband\/wife, headship\/submission in marriage?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe brought Eric Schumacher and Elyse Fitzpatrick into the studio, again, today at FamilyLife to help us deal with this question. Welcome back, guys. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Thanks. We\u2019re glad to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> It\u2019s great to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Are you just laughing at our crazy life? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes, actually. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019ve never had that happen in your home? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> We\u2019ve had several times that I\u2019ve had to go downstairs. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> So why would you go and not Jenny? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s the question. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> I\u2019m <em>stronger<\/em> than Jenny. [Laughter] I\u2019m physically stronger than Jenny. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That is what I tell Dave! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> I\u2019m not saying I didn\u2019t go down with my shotgun, but I went down. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Would you go down, Elyse? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> You know, when I watch like scary, suspense things on TV, and the person is going downstairs to see what the noise is, I\u2019m always screaming, \u201cDon\u2019t go! Don\u2019t go! Don\u2019t go down there!\u201d [Laughter] So would I go?\u2014no, probably not. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Would you want your husband to go? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Well, yes. I mean, I don\u2019t want to go; somebody\u2019s got to go. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYes, that\u2019s interesting. We look at that role of men and women as protectors; but you know, what is interesting to me is\u2014I don\u2019t know if you guys watch superhero movies\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, of course; \u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Of course. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Ann loves them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014the Marvel movies. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes, all the Marvel universe. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> In <em>Black Panther<\/em>, you have the Dora Milaje, who are those women who are the protector of the king. I <em>love<\/em> that picture of the Dora Milaje; they are like warrior women. I think that comes closer to actually what those words, <em>ezer kenegdo<\/em>, mean\u2014you know, helper suitable for or standing in front of. I think that comes closer to the meaning of what it is to be a woman than the fainting Victorian woman, who passes out at the sight of blood and couldn\u2019t protect at all. You know, I just want to, maybe, throw that in. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> I think that Eve\u2019s role, the woman\u2019s role, is just as much a role of courage. I mean, women give birth, so\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> There you go; that\u2019s all you\u2019ve got to say. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That term, <em>ezer<\/em> or [phonetically] \u0101zer\u2014however you say it\u2014it\u2019s noted as\u2014with God, as being a God of power\u2014and a military word. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s where I want to go with you guys, because you wrote a book called <em>Jesus and Gender: Living as Sisters and Brothers in Christ<\/em>. Previously, you wrote <em>Worthy<\/em>. You\u2019ve really\/it\u2019s become a passion and, really, something you\u2019ve been able to bring to the church and the community of Christ to help us understand this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs you think about where we start at\u2014I mean, it\u2019s just a crazy idea to think men should go downstairs\u2014that wasn\u2019t the idea. The idea is: \u201cHow do we view men and women?\u201d \u201cHow do we view husbands and wives?\u201d and \u201cHow do you take what you just said, Elyse\u2014the understanding of what God originally created\/the creation mandate, even for marriage\u2014into the perspective in a home? What does that look like?\u201d Help us really\/I mean, that is a <em>major<\/em> question we need to understand. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes; I think I\u2019d just like to add to what we\u2019ve been talking about. All through the Old Testament, we see women who are courageous and strong; and they take <em>risks<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tYou think about Tamar, who has a cowardly and selfish father-in-law, who won\u2019t provide a son for this widow to raise up children for her late husband. She dresses up like a prostitute and puts herself at great risk in order to be <em>faithful<\/em> to her husband. \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tThink about Ruth. She goes out into a field\u2014as a Moabite woman in Bethlehem\u2014and she goes to the threshing floor to basically propose marriage. These are <em>strong<\/em> women, who take big <em>risks<\/em> with their own lives for the sake of serving others. \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><p>\n\t\t\t\tIn our first episode, we talked about the importance of Philippians 2, and having the <em>mind<\/em> of Christ in how we treat one another and cooperate with one another as men and women. As we get to Ephesians\u2014take Ephesians 5: this passage on men and women; I\u2019m not going to read it; I\u2019ve got it here open in front of me\u2014but Paul\u2019s instructions to the husbands are: \u201c\u2026love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her to make her holy, cleansing her with the washing of water by the Word.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe goes on to say that Christ works to make the church beautiful\u2014the same way\u2014husbands need to love their wives as their own bodies because they are one flesh; they are unified like Genesis 2 points us to. So really there, the mindset of the husband should be the mindset of Christ: you are willing to take risks. You are willing to sacrifice yourself\u2014your ambitions, your comfort, your safety\u2014for the sake of being one flesh with her and to see her flourish as Christ sacrificed Himself for our flourishing in His kingdom. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then you look at the instructions to wives: \u201cWives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord because the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church.\u201d Now, Paul doesn\u2019t define what headship means there. He illustrates it in what we just talked about\u2014how husbands are supposed to live\u2014that\u2019s what headship is. If it is anything, it is <em>sacrificing<\/em> yourself for her good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>So what is he calling the woman to do here? We get into the book about the meaning of submit. Like Elyse pointed out earlier, there is free agency there. This instruction is given to wives\u2014not to the husbands; it doesn\u2019t say, \u201cMake your wife submit,\u201d\u2014it calls the wife to this. The way a wife submits is as the church is submitting to Christ. There is a whole lot we could say there about how we submit to Christ, because we all know we have a ton of freedom in our submission to Christ. He might tell us to dress modestly, but He doesn\u2019t tell us what shirt to wear and what pants to put on. He gives us general commands, and then we carry them out according to who we are. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut what is the aim of the church submitting to Jesus? The church, like Paul commands in Philippians 2, is to have the mind of Christ. The church is the <em>body<\/em> of Christ; the church is supposed to look like Jesus. For the wife to submit herself to the husband means, she, like him, is to lay aside her comfort, her ambitions\u2014sacrifice herself\u2014to be unified with him and cooperate with him in this common goal that has been given, which is to glorify God and display His glory and to fulfill the Great Commission. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat Paul is calling both the husband and the wife to is very, very similar. The command, essentially, is to both of them: \u201cBe like Jesus in how you relate to each other.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And yet\u2014you know, obviously, in the church and in Christian marriages, we have this picture of headship\/submission looking much different than that\u2014like the head is: \u201cI\u2019m in control. I have the power. Submit means you come under my authority and power.\u201d Is that a <em>bad<\/em> understanding? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> I think so because that\/I don\u2019t think that reflects the relationship between Christ and the church. On the night when He dressed Himself like a slave, and washed His disciples\u2019 feet, and then told them to live the same way with each other, He says, \u201cNo longer do I call you slaves; I call you friends.\u201d I think, if our relationship, as husbands and wives, takes on this characteristic of the one who gives the command and the one who obeys, that doesn\u2019t picture friendship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJesus is our Lord, of course; He is God. That is what is unique about Him, as our Bridegroom. But He said, \u201cI did not come to be served. I came to serve and give My life as a ransom for many.\u201d The first thing He is\u2014and the first thing we are\u2014He is a servant: like to come to Jesus and submit to Him, the first thing it means is we must be willing to be served by Him before we ever start serving Him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Elyse, what does that look like in your home? Have you ever done it in an unhealthy way? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Oh, yes; Phil and I have been married for 47 years; and yes, I think that there were times when I would say, \u201cI can\u2019t have any kind of opinion about anything that would be different than Phil, because that is what it means to be a submissive wife.\u201d Of course, there have been\u2014because I have, as you know, a voice\u2014there have been lots of times when I would say, \u201cOh, yes; but I\u2019m the one who needs to be listened to here,\u201d in an ungodly way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean, for as many years as we have been married, there have been sin everywhere\u2014and in my heart, too\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014as every marriage has. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> \u2014because we\u2019re two sinners living together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor me, it\u2019s really come to a place, where I have to say, \u201cWhat do <em>you<\/em> think? What do <em>you<\/em> want?\u201d to Phil. A lot of times, Phil is the sort of really easygoing guy; so he\u2019ll just say, \u201cWhatever you want to do is fine with me.\u201d Then I used to always be frustrated by that. It\u2019s like, \u201cOh no! You\u2019re supposed to tell <em>me<\/em>.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Did you feel like it was passive? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> I felt like it was passive; but you know, it\u2019s funny\u2014now, that I\u2019ve really\/50 years later, gotten to understand and know Phil\u2014Phil is just an easygoing person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s Dave. Dave\u2019s just like that; he really <em>doesn\u2019t<\/em> care. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We\u2019re just wonderful men; aren\u2019t we?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> He doesn\u2019t <em>care<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You are! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes; just really doesn\u2019t care. I used to think, Well, that\u2019s\/I\u2019m supposed to have somebody who tells me.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Then I became very\/I\u2019m comfortable with that now. The Lord has given me specific gifts. The Lord has given Phil specific gifts, and his easygoingness has been a <em>gift<\/em> to me over the years. But then I always\/I want to be the sort of person, who is always saying to Phil, \u201cTell me what you think. What do <em>you<\/em> think?\u201d because it\u2019s easy for me to have an opinion\u2014and then Phil is very easygoing\u2014he would not necessarily give his opinion unless I said, \u201cI want to hear it.\u201d <br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut for us, I think that that\u2019s the thing that\u2019s been really helpful for me, personally, as we\u2019ve worked through: \u201cWhat are the roles of women? What are the roles of men?\u201d\u2014is it\u2019s not cookie-cutter; it\u2019s not like a one-size-fits-all sort of thing. Phil and I have different gifts; Eric and Jenny have different gifts; you guys, obviously, are differently gifted. I don\u2019t need to look like someone else\u2019s perspective of what a Christian marriage should be. We\u2014Phil and I\u2014have lived together in a unity that has come about because we know that we are differently gifted, and we live in light of that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s interesting\u2014listening to you, today, talk about this\u2014I\u2019ve had visions in my mind of what it looked like before; but I had a new one today from you guys, which was: \u201cHeadship and submission is a question of: \u2018Who gets to be like Jesus the most?\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> <em>Right<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know if that is what you are saying. It\u2019s like, \u201cJesus is the head of the church. What did that look like?\u201d Well, that looked like serving and giving His life away for the church. Jesus has to submit to the Father; what does that look like?\u2014obeying the Father\u2019s will; and putting His own will away, and accepting God\u2019s will. You just gave me a vision\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014of who can out-serve one another. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014it\u2019s like: \u201cI want to be like Jesus,\u201d \u201cI want to be like Jesus.\u201d That means I\u2019m going to lay down my life to serve her as my wife; she\u2019s going to lay down her\u2014it becomes this mutual\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes; right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014flourishing together. Yet, you write in there that the husband is the first to <em>die<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What does that look like? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> I think what that looks like is Peter tells husbands to live with their wives in an understanding way\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> \u2014and calls them the weaker vessel. I think that primarily refers to physical strength. What he is saying is: \u201cDo not exploit your physical strength to benefit <em>you<\/em> at the cost of your wife.\u201d That, again, is Philippians 2: though He has the fullness of God, He doesn\u2019t exploit that; He becomes a servant. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think the man is constantly remembering that Jesus has called us together to fulfill this Great Commission; and He has called us, in a marriage, to do that through our marriage. This marriage <em>isn\u2019t<\/em> about: \u201cI have a vision of me one day being a CEO,\u201d or \u201c\u2026a star athlete,\u201d\u2014or whatever it is; and\u2014\u201cShe needs to agree with that, and put herself behind my career, and make that successful.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNo; what we are called to cooperate in is Christ\u2019s purposes of fulfilling this Great Commission. So he\u2019s <em>not<\/em> thinking about himself; he\u2019s thinking about: \u201cHow do we display the glory of Jesus Christ crucified and risen, together as partners, in this?\u2014I\u2019m going to kill anything in me that gets in the way of that; I\u2019m going to sacrifice any dream\/any ambition for the sake of her to be able to be unified with me so that we can flourish together in God\u2019s purposes.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I love what you guys are saying; and it reminds me of Kristi McLelland, who is a professor at a university. She was talking one time about being in Israel, and she did a lot of Hebrew teaching and cultural learning over there. She talked to a rabbi, who was in his 70s. She said he had this long, grey beard. And she was wrestling with these words that <em>ezer<\/em> (\u0101zer) <em>kenegdo<\/em>. She said, \u201cWhat would you say those words mean in Hebrew: to be a helper suitable?\u201d He said, \u201cOh, it\u2019s easy.\u201d He said, \u201cThe woman was created to contend with Adam.\u201d She said, \u201cWhat do you mean?\u201d He goes, \u201cBecause God knew there was an enemy in the garden, and it would take the two of them, together, to defeat the enemy, contending with one another, side by side.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think so often we can get lost, and we get into these details\u2014\u201cWell, should he be here?\u201d and \u201cShould I be there?\u201d I think the truth is: \u201cLet\u2019s contend together\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cwith one another, side by side, in this battle that is warring around us; because we <em>need<\/em> one another. Instead of fighting one another, let\u2019s battle together.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, I love what your definition in <em>Jesus and Gender<\/em>\u2014I don\u2019t know if you remember writing this\u2014[Laughter]\u2014but you use this beautiful term; I\u2019m guessing it is original to you, <em>christic<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes; well,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Well\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> \u2014it\u2019s not original to us. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, it\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I haven\u2019t heard it before. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014it\u2019s a Christ-centered man\/woman; and in this case, Christ-centered marriage. I love your definition: \u201cImitating Christ in voluntary humility\u201d\u2014which you\u2019ve just been discussing\u2014\u201cand mutual flourishing as they recognize one another\u2019s value and pursue unity with one another.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean, it\u2019s this beautiful picture of what we\u2019ve been talking about: there is headship; there is submission; there is imitating Christ; there is mutual humility for flourishing. It\u2019s\u2014and you\u2019ve said it many times\u2014it\u2019s for extending the kingdom of God to the world. That\u2019s the best way God designed it to happen in a marriage; am I right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes, I think so. I\u2019m just thinking back to our opening, talking about who should go downstairs. [Laughter] I\u2019m reminded of how Christ cooperates with the church, and the church cooperates with Christ. Now, granted\u2014He had this key role, and He is the one who died for our sins and rose from the dead\u2014but then, <em>immediately<\/em>, He is calling us into cooperation with Him to fulfill the Great Commission and take the gospel to the ends of the earth. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDoes Jesus ever send His bride down the stairs into a dangerous situation?\u2014absolutely! The church is being persecuted, even today; and it always has been. He <em>sends<\/em> His bride into dangerous places to do risky things. He doesn\u2019t <em>shelter<\/em> her in this safe place\u2014He gives her strength; He gives her encouragement; He goes with her\u2014but He sends her into these dangerous and risky things, because she\u2019s a church that is\/we\u2019re being conformed into the image of Christ. He is the Lion of Judah who, when you see Him in Revelation, looks like a Lamb that has been slain. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So you just answered our question. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> \u201cGo together!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Ann should have gone down with me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cGo together!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> \u201cGo together.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s the answer: \u201cGo together.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We\u2019re stronger together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> One of the things I\u2019ve learned in my walk with God is that God doesn\u2019t promise a life of comfort and ease. In fact, He promises a life of trials; but He also promises that He will be <em>with me<\/em> in those trials\/that He will be <em>alongside of me<\/em> in the difficult circumstances. What a great reminder from Elyse Fitzpatrick and Eric Schumacher about the fact that Jesus\u2019s bride is not going to live a life without danger, but it is going to live a life present with the risen Messiah. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>Elyse and Eric have written a book called <em>Jesus and Gender: Living as Sisters and Brothers in Christ<\/em>. You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to order a copy of <em>Jesus and Gender<\/em>; or you can pick up the phone and call us at 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY,\u201d to request your copy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhile you are there, all this week, when you make a donation to the ministry of FamilyLife of any amount, we\u2019re going to send you a copy of <em>So Long, Normal<\/em> by Laura Story as a way of saying, \u201cThank you for giving to the ministry of FamilyLife.\u201d <em>So Long, Normal<\/em> is Laura\u2019s book that helps us really process the \u201cnormal\u201d parts of our life when things don\u2019t feel normal at all. It\u2019s our gift to you when you make a donation of any amount at FamilyLifeToday.com; or again, you can pick up the phone and call us at 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf this topic today about <em>Jesus and Gender<\/em>, or any of our FamilyLife programs have been helpful at all for you, we\u2019d love for you to share today\u2019s podcast with a friend or family member. Wherever you get your podcasts, it could really advance the ministry of FamilyLife if you would scroll down and rate and review us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we want to talk about how you find God and His purposes and His glory in the midst of the mundane\/the ordinary stuff of life. How can you have that kind of God-centered focus on all that\u2019s happening in your marriage and your family? Courtney Reissig is going to join Dave and Ann to talk about just that. We hope you can join us as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2022 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:24:58"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["22.86M"],"filesize_raw":["23967822"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-307464.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-307464.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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discussing gender and the Bible, do we lose what matters most? On FamilyLife Today, Dave &amp; Ann Wilson host authors Elyse Fitzpatrick &amp; Eric Schumacher--who untangle what the Bible says\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6and doesn't.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2022-04-07.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Jesus has called us, together, to fulfill this Great Commission; and He has called us in a marriage to do that through our marriage. How do we display the glory of Jesus Christ crucified and risen, together, as partners in this?\u2014I\u2019m going to kill anything in me that gets in the way of that; I\u2019m going to sacrifice any dream\/any ambition for the sake of her to be able to be unified with me so that we can flourish together in God\u2019s purposes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We had this interesting experience happen one night at, like, three in the morning. Ann and I are upstairs in our bedroom asleep. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I wake up, because the TV was blaring <em>so loud<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014downstairs. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is at 3 am. None of our kids live in our home anymore. I hear the TV; and I\u2019m thinking, \u201cHow did the TV get on?\u201d I shake, Dave, like [whispering], \u201cDave, do you hear the TV? It is blasting!\u201d I said, \u201cDid you leave the TV on?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m like, \u201cNo; I mean, I turned it off. I have no idea why the TV is on at three in the morning.\u201d So then, tell them what you said. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I said, \u201cYou better go check that out!\u201d [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m like, \u201cNo, you go down there!\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You didn\u2019t tell me, \u201cNo.\u201d You didn\u2019t tell me to go down. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> When she said that, I\u2019m like, \u201cSomebody\u2019s in our house and turned on the TV.\u201d We literally looked at each other, like, \u201cWhat are we going to do?\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m not going.\u201d She\u2019s like, \u201cI\u2019m not going.\u201d We literally dialed 9-1-1. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014from our bed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019ve never done this in my life. I knew the front shutters were open. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I literally get the police on there; and I\u2019m like, \u201cSomebody is in our house downstairs. The TV is on; we don\u2019t know what\u2019s going on. Would you come?\u201d They are like, \u201cYes, we will come.\u201d I said, \u201cYou can look through the front window; you\u2019ll probably be able to see.\u201d We lie there in bed, waiting. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Really? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Sure enough. Finally, you could see some lights out in our cul-de-sac. The police call and they go, \u201cHey, you can come down. There is nobody in there; let us in the front door.\u201d We go, tiptoeing down. To this day, we don\u2019t know what happened. The TV just clicked on, glaring. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> He said\/the police said, \u201cThis happens <em>all<\/em> the time.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; they told us stories. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We\u2019re like, \u201cWhat?\u201d He goes, \u201cYes, it\u2019s usually a person, who has been drinking too much,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> They come in the wrong house. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cand they walk in the wrong home and turn on a TV.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. So anyway, you\u2019re like, \u201cWhy in the world did you just tell us this story?\u201d Because the question is: \u201cShould Dave have gone down? [Laughter] Why is it the man who always has to be the protector?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s just a fun way to get into a question about male and female\u2014protector; follower\/leader;\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and the roles. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014headship\/submission in marriage and family. We\u2019re a marriage and family ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We need to talk about: \u201cHow do you understand male and female, husband\/wife, headship\/submission in marriage?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe brought Eric Schumacher and Elyse Fitzpatrick into the studio, again, today at FamilyLife to help us deal with this question. Welcome back, guys. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Thanks. We\u2019re glad to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> It\u2019s great to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Are you just laughing at our crazy life? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes, actually. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019ve never had that happen in your home? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> We\u2019ve had several times that I\u2019ve had to go downstairs. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> So why would you go and not Jenny? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s the question. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> I\u2019m <em>stronger<\/em> than Jenny. [Laughter] I\u2019m physically stronger than Jenny. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That is what I tell Dave! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> I\u2019m not saying I didn\u2019t go down with my shotgun, but I went down. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Would you go down, Elyse? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> You know, when I watch like scary, suspense things on TV, and the person is going downstairs to see what the noise is, I\u2019m always screaming, \u201cDon\u2019t go! Don\u2019t go! Don\u2019t go down there!\u201d [Laughter] So would I go?\u2014no, probably not. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Would you want your husband to go? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Well, yes. I mean, I don\u2019t want to go; somebody\u2019s got to go. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYes, that\u2019s interesting. We look at that role of men and women as protectors; but you know, what is interesting to me is\u2014I don\u2019t know if you guys watch superhero movies\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, of course; \u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Of course. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Ann loves them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014the Marvel movies. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes, all the Marvel universe. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> In <em>Black Panther<\/em>, you have the Dora Milaje, who are those women who are the protector of the king. I <em>love<\/em> that picture of the Dora Milaje; they are like warrior women. I think that comes closer to actually what those words, <em>ezer kenegdo<\/em>, mean\u2014you know, helper suitable for or standing in front of. I think that comes closer to the meaning of what it is to be a woman than the fainting Victorian woman, who passes out at the sight of blood and couldn\u2019t protect at all. You know, I just want to, maybe, throw that in. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> I think that Eve\u2019s role, the woman\u2019s role, is just as much a role of courage. I mean, women give birth, so\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> There you go; that\u2019s all you\u2019ve got to say. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That term, <em>ezer<\/em> or [phonetically] \u0101zer\u2014however you say it\u2014it\u2019s noted as\u2014with God, as being a God of power\u2014and a military word. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s where I want to go with you guys, because you wrote a book called <em>Jesus and Gender: Living as Sisters and Brothers in Christ<\/em>. Previously, you wrote <em>Worthy<\/em>. You\u2019ve really\/it\u2019s become a passion and, really, something you\u2019ve been able to bring to the church and the community of Christ to help us understand this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs you think about where we start at\u2014I mean, it\u2019s just a crazy idea to think men should go downstairs\u2014that wasn\u2019t the idea. The idea is: \u201cHow do we view men and women?\u201d \u201cHow do we view husbands and wives?\u201d and \u201cHow do you take what you just said, Elyse\u2014the understanding of what God originally created\/the creation mandate, even for marriage\u2014into the perspective in a home? What does that look like?\u201d Help us really\/I mean, that is a <em>major<\/em> question we need to understand. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes; I think I\u2019d just like to add to what we\u2019ve been talking about. All through the Old Testament, we see women who are courageous and strong; and they take <em>risks<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tYou think about Tamar, who has a cowardly and selfish father-in-law, who won\u2019t provide a son for this widow to raise up children for her late husband. She dresses up like a prostitute and puts herself at great risk in order to be <em>faithful<\/em> to her husband. \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tThink about Ruth. She goes out into a field\u2014as a Moabite woman in Bethlehem\u2014and she goes to the threshing floor to basically propose marriage. These are <em>strong<\/em> women, who take big <em>risks<\/em> with their own lives for the sake of serving others. \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><p>\n\t\t\t\tIn our first episode, we talked about the importance of Philippians 2, and having the <em>mind<\/em> of Christ in how we treat one another and cooperate with one another as men and women. As we get to Ephesians\u2014take Ephesians 5: this passage on men and women; I\u2019m not going to read it; I\u2019ve got it here open in front of me\u2014but Paul\u2019s instructions to the husbands are: \u201c\u2026love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her to make her holy, cleansing her with the washing of water by the Word.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe goes on to say that Christ works to make the church beautiful\u2014the same way\u2014husbands need to love their wives as their own bodies because they are one flesh; they are unified like Genesis 2 points us to. So really there, the mindset of the husband should be the mindset of Christ: you are willing to take risks. You are willing to sacrifice yourself\u2014your ambitions, your comfort, your safety\u2014for the sake of being one flesh with her and to see her flourish as Christ sacrificed Himself for our flourishing in His kingdom. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then you look at the instructions to wives: \u201cWives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord because the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church.\u201d Now, Paul doesn\u2019t define what headship means there. He illustrates it in what we just talked about\u2014how husbands are supposed to live\u2014that\u2019s what headship is. If it is anything, it is <em>sacrificing<\/em> yourself for her good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>So what is he calling the woman to do here? We get into the book about the meaning of submit. Like Elyse pointed out earlier, there is free agency there. This instruction is given to wives\u2014not to the husbands; it doesn\u2019t say, \u201cMake your wife submit,\u201d\u2014it calls the wife to this. The way a wife submits is as the church is submitting to Christ. There is a whole lot we could say there about how we submit to Christ, because we all know we have a ton of freedom in our submission to Christ. He might tell us to dress modestly, but He doesn\u2019t tell us what shirt to wear and what pants to put on. He gives us general commands, and then we carry them out according to who we are. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut what is the aim of the church submitting to Jesus? The church, like Paul commands in Philippians 2, is to have the mind of Christ. The church is the <em>body<\/em> of Christ; the church is supposed to look like Jesus. For the wife to submit herself to the husband means, she, like him, is to lay aside her comfort, her ambitions\u2014sacrifice herself\u2014to be unified with him and cooperate with him in this common goal that has been given, which is to glorify God and display His glory and to fulfill the Great Commission. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat Paul is calling both the husband and the wife to is very, very similar. The command, essentially, is to both of them: \u201cBe like Jesus in how you relate to each other.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And yet\u2014you know, obviously, in the church and in Christian marriages, we have this picture of headship\/submission looking much different than that\u2014like the head is: \u201cI\u2019m in control. I have the power. Submit means you come under my authority and power.\u201d Is that a <em>bad<\/em> understanding? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> I think so because that\/I don\u2019t think that reflects the relationship between Christ and the church. On the night when He dressed Himself like a slave, and washed His disciples\u2019 feet, and then told them to live the same way with each other, He says, \u201cNo longer do I call you slaves; I call you friends.\u201d I think, if our relationship, as husbands and wives, takes on this characteristic of the one who gives the command and the one who obeys, that doesn\u2019t picture friendship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJesus is our Lord, of course; He is God. That is what is unique about Him, as our Bridegroom. But He said, \u201cI did not come to be served. I came to serve and give My life as a ransom for many.\u201d The first thing He is\u2014and the first thing we are\u2014He is a servant: like to come to Jesus and submit to Him, the first thing it means is we must be willing to be served by Him before we ever start serving Him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Elyse, what does that look like in your home? Have you ever done it in an unhealthy way? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Oh, yes; Phil and I have been married for 47 years; and yes, I think that there were times when I would say, \u201cI can\u2019t have any kind of opinion about anything that would be different than Phil, because that is what it means to be a submissive wife.\u201d Of course, there have been\u2014because I have, as you know, a voice\u2014there have been lots of times when I would say, \u201cOh, yes; but I\u2019m the one who needs to be listened to here,\u201d in an ungodly way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean, for as many years as we have been married, there have been sin everywhere\u2014and in my heart, too\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014as every marriage has. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> \u2014because we\u2019re two sinners living together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor me, it\u2019s really come to a place, where I have to say, \u201cWhat do <em>you<\/em> think? What do <em>you<\/em> want?\u201d to Phil. A lot of times, Phil is the sort of really easygoing guy; so he\u2019ll just say, \u201cWhatever you want to do is fine with me.\u201d Then I used to always be frustrated by that. It\u2019s like, \u201cOh no! You\u2019re supposed to tell <em>me<\/em>.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Did you feel like it was passive? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> I felt like it was passive; but you know, it\u2019s funny\u2014now, that I\u2019ve really\/50 years later, gotten to understand and know Phil\u2014Phil is just an easygoing person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s Dave. Dave\u2019s just like that; he really <em>doesn\u2019t<\/em> care. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We\u2019re just wonderful men; aren\u2019t we?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> He doesn\u2019t <em>care<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You are! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes; just really doesn\u2019t care. I used to think, Well, that\u2019s\/I\u2019m supposed to have somebody who tells me.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Then I became very\/I\u2019m comfortable with that now. The Lord has given me specific gifts. The Lord has given Phil specific gifts, and his easygoingness has been a <em>gift<\/em> to me over the years. But then I always\/I want to be the sort of person, who is always saying to Phil, \u201cTell me what you think. What do <em>you<\/em> think?\u201d because it\u2019s easy for me to have an opinion\u2014and then Phil is very easygoing\u2014he would not necessarily give his opinion unless I said, \u201cI want to hear it.\u201d <br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut for us, I think that that\u2019s the thing that\u2019s been really helpful for me, personally, as we\u2019ve worked through: \u201cWhat are the roles of women? What are the roles of men?\u201d\u2014is it\u2019s not cookie-cutter; it\u2019s not like a one-size-fits-all sort of thing. Phil and I have different gifts; Eric and Jenny have different gifts; you guys, obviously, are differently gifted. I don\u2019t need to look like someone else\u2019s perspective of what a Christian marriage should be. We\u2014Phil and I\u2014have lived together in a unity that has come about because we know that we are differently gifted, and we live in light of that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s interesting\u2014listening to you, today, talk about this\u2014I\u2019ve had visions in my mind of what it looked like before; but I had a new one today from you guys, which was: \u201cHeadship and submission is a question of: \u2018Who gets to be like Jesus the most?\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> <em>Right<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know if that is what you are saying. It\u2019s like, \u201cJesus is the head of the church. What did that look like?\u201d Well, that looked like serving and giving His life away for the church. Jesus has to submit to the Father; what does that look like?\u2014obeying the Father\u2019s will; and putting His own will away, and accepting God\u2019s will. You just gave me a vision\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014of who can out-serve one another. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014it\u2019s like: \u201cI want to be like Jesus,\u201d \u201cI want to be like Jesus.\u201d That means I\u2019m going to lay down my life to serve her as my wife; she\u2019s going to lay down her\u2014it becomes this mutual\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes; right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014flourishing together. Yet, you write in there that the husband is the first to <em>die<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What does that look like? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> I think what that looks like is Peter tells husbands to live with their wives in an understanding way\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> \u2014and calls them the weaker vessel. I think that primarily refers to physical strength. What he is saying is: \u201cDo not exploit your physical strength to benefit <em>you<\/em> at the cost of your wife.\u201d That, again, is Philippians 2: though He has the fullness of God, He doesn\u2019t exploit that; He becomes a servant. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think the man is constantly remembering that Jesus has called us together to fulfill this Great Commission; and He has called us, in a marriage, to do that through our marriage. This marriage <em>isn\u2019t<\/em> about: \u201cI have a vision of me one day being a CEO,\u201d or \u201c\u2026a star athlete,\u201d\u2014or whatever it is; and\u2014\u201cShe needs to agree with that, and put herself behind my career, and make that successful.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNo; what we are called to cooperate in is Christ\u2019s purposes of fulfilling this Great Commission. So he\u2019s <em>not<\/em> thinking about himself; he\u2019s thinking about: \u201cHow do we display the glory of Jesus Christ crucified and risen, together as partners, in this?\u2014I\u2019m going to kill anything in me that gets in the way of that; I\u2019m going to sacrifice any dream\/any ambition for the sake of her to be able to be unified with me so that we can flourish together in God\u2019s purposes.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I love what you guys are saying; and it reminds me of Kristi McLelland, who is a professor at a university. She was talking one time about being in Israel, and she did a lot of Hebrew teaching and cultural learning over there. She talked to a rabbi, who was in his 70s. She said he had this long, grey beard. And she was wrestling with these words that <em>ezer<\/em> (\u0101zer) <em>kenegdo<\/em>. She said, \u201cWhat would you say those words mean in Hebrew: to be a helper suitable?\u201d He said, \u201cOh, it\u2019s easy.\u201d He said, \u201cThe woman was created to contend with Adam.\u201d She said, \u201cWhat do you mean?\u201d He goes, \u201cBecause God knew there was an enemy in the garden, and it would take the two of them, together, to defeat the enemy, contending with one another, side by side.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think so often we can get lost, and we get into these details\u2014\u201cWell, should he be here?\u201d and \u201cShould I be there?\u201d I think the truth is: \u201cLet\u2019s contend together\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cwith one another, side by side, in this battle that is warring around us; because we <em>need<\/em> one another. Instead of fighting one another, let\u2019s battle together.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, I love what your definition in <em>Jesus and Gender<\/em>\u2014I don\u2019t know if you remember writing this\u2014[Laughter]\u2014but you use this beautiful term; I\u2019m guessing it is original to you, <em>christic<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes; well,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Well\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> \u2014it\u2019s not original to us. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, it\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I haven\u2019t heard it before. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014it\u2019s a Christ-centered man\/woman; and in this case, Christ-centered marriage. I love your definition: \u201cImitating Christ in voluntary humility\u201d\u2014which you\u2019ve just been discussing\u2014\u201cand mutual flourishing as they recognize one another\u2019s value and pursue unity with one another.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean, it\u2019s this beautiful picture of what we\u2019ve been talking about: there is headship; there is submission; there is imitating Christ; there is mutual humility for flourishing. It\u2019s\u2014and you\u2019ve said it many times\u2014it\u2019s for extending the kingdom of God to the world. That\u2019s the best way God designed it to happen in a marriage; am I right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes, I think so. I\u2019m just thinking back to our opening, talking about who should go downstairs. [Laughter] I\u2019m reminded of how Christ cooperates with the church, and the church cooperates with Christ. Now, granted\u2014He had this key role, and He is the one who died for our sins and rose from the dead\u2014but then, <em>immediately<\/em>, He is calling us into cooperation with Him to fulfill the Great Commission and take the gospel to the ends of the earth. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDoes Jesus ever send His bride down the stairs into a dangerous situation?\u2014absolutely! The church is being persecuted, even today; and it always has been. He <em>sends<\/em> His bride into dangerous places to do risky things. He doesn\u2019t <em>shelter<\/em> her in this safe place\u2014He gives her strength; He gives her encouragement; He goes with her\u2014but He sends her into these dangerous and risky things, because she\u2019s a church that is\/we\u2019re being conformed into the image of Christ. He is the Lion of Judah who, when you see Him in Revelation, looks like a Lamb that has been slain. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So you just answered our question. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> \u201cGo together!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Ann should have gone down with me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cGo together!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> \u201cGo together.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s the answer: \u201cGo together.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We\u2019re stronger together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> One of the things I\u2019ve learned in my walk with God is that God doesn\u2019t promise a life of comfort and ease. In fact, He promises a life of trials; but He also promises that He will be <em>with me<\/em> in those trials\/that He will be <em>alongside of me<\/em> in the difficult circumstances. What a great reminder from Elyse Fitzpatrick and Eric Schumacher about the fact that Jesus\u2019s bride is not going to live a life without danger, but it is going to live a life present with the risen Messiah. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>Elyse and Eric have written a book called <em>Jesus and Gender: Living as Sisters and Brothers in Christ<\/em>. You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to order a copy of <em>Jesus and Gender<\/em>; or you can pick up the phone and call us at 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY,\u201d to request your copy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhile you are there, all this week, when you make a donation to the ministry of FamilyLife of any amount, we\u2019re going to send you a copy of <em>So Long, Normal<\/em> by Laura Story as a way of saying, \u201cThank you for giving to the ministry of FamilyLife.\u201d <em>So Long, Normal<\/em> is Laura\u2019s book that helps us really process the \u201cnormal\u201d parts of our life when things don\u2019t feel normal at all. It\u2019s our gift to you when you make a donation of any amount at FamilyLifeToday.com; or again, you can pick up the phone and call us at 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf this topic today about <em>Jesus and Gender<\/em>, or any of our FamilyLife programs have been helpful at all for you, we\u2019d love for you to share today\u2019s podcast with a friend or family member. Wherever you get your podcasts, it could really advance the ministry of FamilyLife if you would scroll down and rate and review us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we want to talk about how you find God and His purposes and His glory in the midst of the mundane\/the ordinary stuff of life. How can you have that kind of God-centered focus on all that\u2019s happening in your marriage and your family? Courtney Reissig is going to join Dave and Ann to talk about just that. We hope you can join us as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2022 FamilyLife. 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