{"id":307462,"date":"2022-04-06T08:02:11","date_gmt":"2022-04-06T12:02:11","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/elyse-fitzpatrick-gender-and-the-bible\/"},"modified":"2022-04-06T08:02:11","modified_gmt":"2022-04-06T12:02:11","slug":"elyse-fitzpatrick-gender-and-the-bible","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/elyse-fitzpatrick-gender-and-the-bible\/","title":{"rendered":"Elyse Fitzpatrick: Gender and the Bible"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Could we be getting gender wrong? Authors Elyse Fitzpatrick and Eric Schumacher cast off the ways gender roles keep us from God\u2019s expansive vision.<\/p>\n<p>Show Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tFind resources from this podcast at shop.familylife.com.<br \/>\n \tFind more content and resources on the FamilyLife&#8217;s app!<br \/>\n \tHelp others find Familylife.\u00a0 Leave a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify.<br \/>\n \tCheck out all the Familylife&#8217;s on the FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Could we be getting gender wrong? Authors Elyse Fitzpatrick and Eric Schumacher cast off the ways gender roles keep us from God\u2019s expansive vision.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2022-04-06.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:26:31","filesize":"24.27M","filesize_raw":"25451547","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848,2896,2873],"tags":[7067],"podcast_series":[8514],"cwp_profile":[3438,9619],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307462","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","category-lgbt","category-mental-and-emotional-issues","tag-gender-and-the-bible","podcast_series-elyse-fitzpatrick-jesus-and-gender","cwp_profile-elyse-fitzpatrick","cwp_profile-eric-schumacher","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307462\/elyse-fitzpatrick-gender-and-the-bible","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307462\/elyse-fitzpatrick-gender-and-the-bible","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"WgcEStN3Y2\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/elyse-fitzpatrick-gender-and-the-bible\/\">Elyse Fitzpatrick: Gender and the Bible<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/elyse-fitzpatrick-gender-and-the-bible\/embed\/#?secret=WgcEStN3Y2\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Elyse Fitzpatrick: Gender and the Bible&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"WgcEStN3Y2\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2022-04-06.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2022-04-06.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Sometimes, women are treated like throw pillows; you know?\u2014they are nice, but they are not necessary\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> \u201cThey are pretty to have around the church.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cI mean, if you have one.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cif you have one.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> But what God is saying in Genesis 2 is: \u201cThis cannot be that the man would be alone\u201d; so that means she is <em>necessary<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo when we started speaking for the FamilyLife <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage getaways, I was young. I had only been married ten years; but I started looking at the material that we were going to teach, and what I was looking at was Genesis 2. I was at the point, where it said, \u201cAnd God made a helper suitable for Adam.\u201d I remember stopping there\u2014now, remember, I wasn\u2019t raised in the church\u2014so I looked at that; and I thought, \u201cI have to be a helper. Where is <em>my<\/em> helper? [Laughter] Why don\u2019t <em>I<\/em> get a helper?\u201d [Laughter] I was kind of mad about that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I remember you came to me, and you were like, \u201cOkay\u201d\u2014you know, we started discussing this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I was only 29. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So then, I thought, \u201cI\u2019m just going to look up the word, \u2018helper,\u2019 in the dictionary.\u201d I\u2019m not looking up Hebrew. I\u2019m just looking at: \u201cLet\u2019s just see what helper says in the dictionary.\u201d It says: \u201cA go-for; a person who does the dirty work. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Oh, no! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cSomeone important tells them what to do.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI throw my hands up in the air; and I was like, \u201cI can\u2019t teach this! Is this my role as a woman? Is this what I\u2019m supposed to do?\u201d That was the beginning of my wrestling, and my struggling, and my yearning to know: \u201cWhat does God have for us as women?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and obviously, you know, you were looking in the dictionary; and it wasn\u2019t even <em>close<\/em> to what that word actually <em>means<\/em> when God wrote that down. It was the beginning of a journey. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Most women\/I think so many of us are wondering, \u201cWhat is our role? What does God expect and want?\u201d and \u201cWhat does He call us?\u201d\u2014so I think today is going to be a great day. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, yes. If there is a question that is critically important for us to understand, in the community of Christ in the church, it\u2019s this question: Male and female, man\/woman, husband\/wife, father\/mother. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI tell you what\u2014we have, in the studio, Eric and Elyse Fitzpatrick\/Eric Schumacher in the studio. Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes, thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, we have a <em>unique<\/em> pairing of: you know, Eric, you are a pastor in Iowa; Elyse, you are a prolific author. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And your book, <em>Jesus and Gender<\/em>; the subtitle is <em>Living as Sisters and Brothers in Christ<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So this is a big topic. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I would start right here: \u201cHow did you two end up connecting and talking about the worthiness of women?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Well, it all started with Twitter<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, where all good things start. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It started on Twitter?! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> It did; it started with Twitter. I\u2019d been in a season of listening to stories of people, who had been marginalized or abused\u2014stories that, for a large part of my life, I would have just blown off and not listened to\u2014so as the MeToo movement started, I decided I want to listen to women and hear about what they are experiencing. Then, as it moved into church, too, I <em>definitely<\/em> wanted to listen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI wrote this string of tweets that were the women in the Bible, who were the first human beings to do certain things. An organization asked me to turn it into an article, which I did. Elyse saw both; and she said, \u201cYou should turn this into a book.\u201d I said, \u201cYou should write it with me.\u201d A few months later, we were working together on an outline. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes, I was kind of in the same place he was\u2014not that I needed to, all of a sudden, discover the value of women\u2014but I think that I was listening more <em>carefully<\/em> to women\u2019s stories\/to marginalized people\u2019s stories. I was already primed to want to do something about that topic. Then, when I saw that Eric was doing that series of tweets, which really became the foundation for the book that we wrote, I thought, \u201cThis is really great. This is something that I\u2019ve wanted to speak into.\u201d That is the genesis of <em>Worthy<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been reading through your book, <em>Jesus and Gender<\/em>, for a week now. Then, last night, we are sitting down to prepare for this day; and I\u2019m thinking, \u201cMan, it\u2019s so interesting that God is using Eric\/a he; and Elyse\/a she to elevate all the she\u2019s in the world to understand their worthiness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEvery once in a while, I get this song in my head; and I feel like God sort of gave me one for you two. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> He wrote you a song, basically. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Wow! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> He seems to do this when\u2014Eric you lead worship, and you write music. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019ve actually heard that you write parodies and sort of fun stuff. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> I do; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I thought\/I thought that was what this was going to be: a parody. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> We\u2019ve never been serenaded before. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What? You haven\u2019t?! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> This is wonderful; no. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Here is the thing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Well, we should wait until afterwards to say whether it is wonderful. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; you will. You will have to say if it\u2019s worthy. [Laughter] But FamilyLife will decide whether they even keep this in the broadcast. This is like an audition, because I don\u2019t really sing; but\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Do you have your words? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> [Guitar strumming] Just\u2014again, last night, sitting there\u2014and this came to me; and it\u2019s not funny. It ended up being more serious, because I think what you are doing is <em>powerfully<\/em> elevating the dignity of women. This is sort of what is happening [Dave singing]: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Eric and Elyse have been called by God,\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0a he and a she, bringing dignity to the she\u2019s. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0They are revealing God\u2019s heart for she.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0They are free, \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tall she\u2019s, to feel worthy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Wor-r-r-thy; she is worthy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And God says, \u201cI see you,\u201d \u201cI hear you,\u201d \u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0and \u201cI want you to feel worthy.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Applause] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yay! Oh, my goodness! Oh, my goodness! That\u2019s <em>so<\/em> wonderful. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> We need to get that for our podcast. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes, we <em>do<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You do! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, you\u2019re being just patronizing to me; whatever. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>Good job.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> No! No! That was <em>wonderful<\/em>. Thank you; I\u2019m encouraged.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> No; I mean, honestly, as I sat there with my guitar last night, I thought, \u201cI\u2019m going <em>fun<\/em>; I\u2019m going to call Eric the woman guy\u201d\u2014you know? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Do you a little parody on you; but I felt like you two <em>are<\/em> like a gift\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014to the church, especially for the she\u2019s\/the women of the world that often have felt devalued and lost their dignity in the body of Christ. I <em>love<\/em> what you\u2019ve done; because you\u2019ve said, \u201cWe need to bring the <em>gospel<\/em> to this conversation.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m thinking\/I\u2019m guessing\u2014right?\u2014you feel like that has sort of been missing?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes, very much so. In the discussions of gender and what roles women should play\/men should play, the topic that has been missing is the gospel; in particular, the incarnation. When you start at Genesis, which is fine\u2014talking about how men and women should relate\u2014that\u2019s fine; but then, if you start at Genesis and then don\u2019t remember, Philippians 2, you\u2019re going to miss something. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019d like to read just a short passage\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, yes; please do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> \u2014from Philippians 2:5; I\u2019ll just read 5-9: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAdopt the same attitude as that of Christ Jesus\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is the imperative; there is the command: \u201cWe are to have <em>this<\/em> attitude.\u201d What we wanted to do in <em>Jesus and Gender<\/em>\/we want to bring <em>this<\/em> attitude into our relationships as sisters and brothers. So what\u2019s the attitude?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\twho existing in the form of God did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited;\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tChrist [has] preeminent authority\u2014but perhaps, I have some authority; or Eric, you have some sort of authority\u2014I don\u2019t want to exploit that authority. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\twho existing in the form of God did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited; instead He emptied Himself by assuming the form of a servant, taking on the likeness of humanity. When He had come as a man, the fullness of God becoming as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat we wanted to do was say: \u201cOkay, let\u2019s talk about relationships between men and women. But let\u2019s base our discussion on what should happen: on how I should think about Eric as my brother, how I should think about you as my sister. Let\u2019s start that conversation <em>with this<\/em>: \u2018 I\u2019m going to empty myself and take on the attitude of a servant.\u2019\u201d That\u2019s what the gospel has to say, I think, to gender relations. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Instead of that, what does it look like? What do you <em>see<\/em>? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Well, what it looks like is people staking out territory <em>on both sides<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s one of the things that we wanted to say in this book was: \u201cWe are not staking out territory on either side.\u201d So if you are very, very conservative; or if you are more progressive, we\u2019re not saying, \u201cHey, we\u2019re with you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat we\u2019re saying is: \u201cIf you are asking the question, \u2018Who gets to be in charge?\u2019\u2014wherever you happen to be, asking that question from, you\u2019ve missed the point.\u201d Because Jesus, over and over and over again, to the disciples, kept saying to them: \u201cIt\u2019s not about who gets to be the best, or who gets to be the highest, or who gets to be the ruler, or you want to be called the benefactor. No; actually, if you are going to follow Me, what you are going to do is you are going to lay down your life, and you\u2019re going to give it up for the lives of others.\u201d <em>That\u2019s<\/em> got to be the rubric that informs how I think about my relationship with men and women\/with brothers and sisters. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes; and we think the reason that that is important is that passage she just read from Philippians 2 is Paul\u2019s command to both men and women\u2014\u201chave this mind\u201d\u2014the mind of Christ. There is not a female mind of Christ and a male mind of Christ; there is one mind of Christ for <em>both<\/em>. Both men and women are being conformed into the image of Jesus. In fact, the author of Hebrews says that He had to be made like His brothers and sisters in every respect, so that He could be a merciful high priest. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s not that women go to some different source for a model of who they are supposed to be. Jesus is the perfect human being, so both men and women can look to Him to <em>learn<\/em> how to live. When you look through Paul\u2019s epistles, there are a few places where he speaks to fathers, to husbands, to wives; but for the most part, his letters are <em>full<\/em> of commands about what it means to be sanctified. These are not given to us as male traits and female traits; they are given to us as traits of what Christ is like. There is not a female way to put on Christ and a male way to put on Christ; we\u2019re called to put on Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe wanted to start, not with Genesis\u2014though, Elyse said, that is a fine place to start: you read a book from beginning to end\u2014but you understand a book by reading it from the end, back to the beginning; because once you\u2019ve reached the end, you know what it is about; now, you interpret everything through that light. And Christ is the end of all things, so we wanted to <em>start with Him<\/em> in order to understand men and women. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNot only that\u2014the gospel\/the message of Jesus Christ: who doesn\u2019t exploit His deity, who takes on the form of a slave, lives a perfect life on our behalf, dies as our substitute under the wrath of God\u2014He <em>serves<\/em> us, and then He is raised from the dead so that He can justify us and raise us from the dead. From beginning to end, Jesus is a <em>servant<\/em>. That gospel\/that message is the power of God for salvation. That message is the <em>only<\/em> thing that has the power to transform us, as men and women, to be people who are like Christ. If we are not <em>starting<\/em> with the power of God for salvation, what\u2019s going to come of it? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s a really good place to start <em>because<\/em>\u2014I\u2019m just thinking back in my younger years\u2014I\u2019m kind of a strong woman\/more of a leader. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> She understated that a little bit. [Laughter] She\u2019s very strong, and it\u2019s one of the things I love about her! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> My mom was an <em>amazing<\/em> wife; but if I had to categorize her, growing up, I would have said, \u201cMy mom is a <em>doormat<\/em>, and my mom takes advantage of that.\u201d So growing up, I thought, \u201cI will <em>never<\/em> be that.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen I give my life to Jesus; and I\u2019m faced with this decision, \u201cWhat will I do?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And I like this, because I <em>am willing<\/em> to lay my life down, as a woman, knowing that Jesus has done that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and that Jesus isn\u2019t going to ask anything of me that wouldn\u2019t be good for me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven as a woman, listening: \u201cHave you laid down your life in saying, \u2018Jesus, I am willing to give You everything; and I am willing to follow You\u2019?\u201d I think, as a woman, we\u2019re\u2014if you don\u2019t know the Word, that can be scary\u2014because all of these pictures come into your head of what it means to be a woman of God: \u201cAm I a doormat?\u201d \u201cAm I someone who can use my gifts of leadership or serving?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cDo I have a voice?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cDo I have a voice?\u201d But I like where you\u2019ve started. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> One of the things that I <em>love<\/em> about what you just said, Ann, is that: \u201cI want to make a <em>decision<\/em> to lay down my life.\u201d One of the things that I think has really been missing in some ways is the understanding that, as women, we have agency to <em>freely<\/em> lay down our lives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> What that means is not that I become a doormat. What that means is that I am doing that from a position of <em>strength<\/em>. So from a position of strength, then, I say, \u201cBecause Christ has done this for me, I am now <em>free<\/em> to give my life away.\u201d As a woman, then\u2014you know, you talked about being a helper and that definition\u2014those words in Genesis about being a helper; those are <em>not<\/em> weak words. Those are <em>powerful<\/em>, almost militaristic words. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; that word, <em>ezer<\/em>, in Hebrew\u2014you guys write about that\u2014explain what that means. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Well, basically, it means a strong ally, someone who comes alongside you to assist you in an important assignment. Most of the time, it is used of God in His relationship to Israel. God is the Helper of His people; so we dare not define that word to mean \u201csubservient\u201d; \u201cweak\u201d; \u201coptional.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of our friends says, \u201cSometimes, women are treated like throw pillows. They are nice, but they are not necessary;\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes! \u201cThey are pretty to have around the church.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cI mean, if you have one.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cif you have one.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> But what God is saying in Genesis 2 is: \u201cThis is really bad,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s what that \u201cnot good\u201d means there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> \u201cThis cannot be that the man would be alone\u201d; so that means she is <em>necessary<\/em>. What we see in Genesis, as God creates the woman from Adam\u2019s side, presents her to him\u2014his first exclamation is: \u201cThis is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh.\u201d He had been presented animals before; they are not the same flesh. What he is saying there is not\u2014\u201cThis is someone different than me,\u201d\u2014he is saying, \u201cThis person is the same as me; she has the same nature as me.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then, Moses adds: \u201cThis is the reason that a man will leave his father and mother and cling to\u201d\u2014or bond with\u2014\u201chis wife, and they will be one flesh.\u201d And it\u2019s interesting because, in the culture of that day, it wasn\u2019t the man who left his family. The woman left her family\/came to be part of his. I think we get a glimpse of the gospel right there that this man is going to be <em>willing<\/em> to leave his family\u2014the protection and security of a family\u2014to pursue unity with his wife for the sake of cooperating together in this creation mandate that God has given them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s what it ought to look like <em>today<\/em>; that as brothers and sisters, or husbands and wives, we ought to be willing to <em>sacrifice<\/em> for the sake of unity\u2014that\u2019s even what Paul says to husbands\u2014\u201cLay down your lives because she is your flesh.\u201d And we want to sacrifice for the sake of being unified, as brothers and sisters, to cooperate together in fulfilling the Great Commission of Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I tell you\u2014I want to get into that conversation about marriage next, because we don\u2019t have time right now\u2014but just listening to you two, and even Ann\u2014as a husband and as a man\u2014I have a vision in my mind of women totally different, honestly. I think I already had this vision; I understood <em>ezer<\/em>. I\u2019ve studied that from the journey Ann talked about, from when we thought it was just helper and helpmeet to that equal partner and confidant. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is a part of me that just\u2014I saw a vision of women being so valuable and worthy that I don\u2019t ever want to look at Ann any\u2014when you said, \u201cthrow pillow,\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cOh my goodness! That has been so often what we\u2019ve done.\u201d You have just given us God\u2019s vision for men <em>and<\/em> women from Philippians 2. What a <em>perfect<\/em> place to start\/to say,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, and it starts with that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cGive it all away.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014surrender;\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and \u201cHave <em>you<\/em> done that?\u201d \u201cHave <em>I<\/em> done that?\u201d\u2014because it is something that we don\u2019t just do one time; but it\u2019s an act of obedience of doing it over and over: \u201cJesus, I lay down my life for You today\u201d and \u201cHow do You want to use me today?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> The topic of gender can often make us feel a little bit confused, or even sometimes a little bit scared, to engage in the conversation; but when we look to Jesus Himself\u2014the Suffering Servant, the gentle and lowly example of what it means to lay down your life and give it to others\u2014things start to become very, very clear. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>Dave and Ann Wilson have been talking today with Elyse Fitzpatrick and Eric Schumacher. They\u2019ve written a book called <em>Jesus and Gender: Living as Sisters and Brothers in Christ<\/em>. By becoming more like Jesus and coming <em>to<\/em> Jesus, women and men can find rest. Men and women are allies in God\u2019s mission. You can find <em>Jesus and Gender<\/em> in our FamilyLife Resource Center by heading to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, and order a copy there; or you can give us a call at 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, many of you know that the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is listener-supported. When you head to our website, at FamilyLifeToday.com, and make a donation of any amount, we\u2019re going to send you a copy of <em>So Long, Normal<\/em>. Laura Story was on our program earlier this week, talking about what it means to process the trauma of the loss of our normal. We believe in this resource so much; so when you make a donation of any amount at FamilyLifeToday.com, we\u2019re going to send you a copy of Laura Story\u2019s book, <em>So Long, Normal<\/em>, as a way of saying, \u201cThank you for helping to support this ministry.\u201d Again, you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call us at 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf this conversation today, or any of our FamilyLife programs have been helpful for you, we\u2019d love for you to share today\u2019s podcast with a family member or friend. And wherever you get your podcasts, it could really advance the gospel effort of what we are doing at FamilyLife if you\u2019d scroll down and rate and review us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>Now, tomorrow, Dave and Ann Wilson are going to be continuing their conversation with Elyse Fitzpatrick and Eric Schumacher about readjusting our mindset when it comes to men and women, centered around, specifically, God\u2019s Great Commission. That\u2019s coming up tomorrow. We hope you can join us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2022 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:26:31"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["24.27M"],"filesize_raw":["25451547"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-307462.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-307462.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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we be getting gender wrong? Authors Elyse Fitzpatrick and Eric Schumacher cast off the ways gender roles keep us from God\u2019s expansive vision.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2022-04-06.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Sometimes, women are treated like throw pillows; you know?\u2014they are nice, but they are not necessary\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> \u201cThey are pretty to have around the church.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cI mean, if you have one.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cif you have one.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> But what God is saying in Genesis 2 is: \u201cThis cannot be that the man would be alone\u201d; so that means she is <em>necessary<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo when we started speaking for the FamilyLife <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage getaways, I was young. I had only been married ten years; but I started looking at the material that we were going to teach, and what I was looking at was Genesis 2. I was at the point, where it said, \u201cAnd God made a helper suitable for Adam.\u201d I remember stopping there\u2014now, remember, I wasn\u2019t raised in the church\u2014so I looked at that; and I thought, \u201cI have to be a helper. Where is <em>my<\/em> helper? [Laughter] Why don\u2019t <em>I<\/em> get a helper?\u201d [Laughter] I was kind of mad about that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I remember you came to me, and you were like, \u201cOkay\u201d\u2014you know, we started discussing this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I was only 29. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So then, I thought, \u201cI\u2019m just going to look up the word, \u2018helper,\u2019 in the dictionary.\u201d I\u2019m not looking up Hebrew. I\u2019m just looking at: \u201cLet\u2019s just see what helper says in the dictionary.\u201d It says: \u201cA go-for; a person who does the dirty work. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Oh, no! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cSomeone important tells them what to do.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI throw my hands up in the air; and I was like, \u201cI can\u2019t teach this! Is this my role as a woman? Is this what I\u2019m supposed to do?\u201d That was the beginning of my wrestling, and my struggling, and my yearning to know: \u201cWhat does God have for us as women?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and obviously, you know, you were looking in the dictionary; and it wasn\u2019t even <em>close<\/em> to what that word actually <em>means<\/em> when God wrote that down. It was the beginning of a journey. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Most women\/I think so many of us are wondering, \u201cWhat is our role? What does God expect and want?\u201d and \u201cWhat does He call us?\u201d\u2014so I think today is going to be a great day. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, yes. If there is a question that is critically important for us to understand, in the community of Christ in the church, it\u2019s this question: Male and female, man\/woman, husband\/wife, father\/mother. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI tell you what\u2014we have, in the studio, Eric and Elyse Fitzpatrick\/Eric Schumacher in the studio. Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes, thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, we have a <em>unique<\/em> pairing of: you know, Eric, you are a pastor in Iowa; Elyse, you are a prolific author. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And your book, <em>Jesus and Gender<\/em>; the subtitle is <em>Living as Sisters and Brothers in Christ<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So this is a big topic. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I would start right here: \u201cHow did you two end up connecting and talking about the worthiness of women?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Well, it all started with Twitter<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, where all good things start. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It started on Twitter?! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> It did; it started with Twitter. I\u2019d been in a season of listening to stories of people, who had been marginalized or abused\u2014stories that, for a large part of my life, I would have just blown off and not listened to\u2014so as the MeToo movement started, I decided I want to listen to women and hear about what they are experiencing. Then, as it moved into church, too, I <em>definitely<\/em> wanted to listen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI wrote this string of tweets that were the women in the Bible, who were the first human beings to do certain things. An organization asked me to turn it into an article, which I did. Elyse saw both; and she said, \u201cYou should turn this into a book.\u201d I said, \u201cYou should write it with me.\u201d A few months later, we were working together on an outline. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes, I was kind of in the same place he was\u2014not that I needed to, all of a sudden, discover the value of women\u2014but I think that I was listening more <em>carefully<\/em> to women\u2019s stories\/to marginalized people\u2019s stories. I was already primed to want to do something about that topic. Then, when I saw that Eric was doing that series of tweets, which really became the foundation for the book that we wrote, I thought, \u201cThis is really great. This is something that I\u2019ve wanted to speak into.\u201d That is the genesis of <em>Worthy<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been reading through your book, <em>Jesus and Gender<\/em>, for a week now. Then, last night, we are sitting down to prepare for this day; and I\u2019m thinking, \u201cMan, it\u2019s so interesting that God is using Eric\/a he; and Elyse\/a she to elevate all the she\u2019s in the world to understand their worthiness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEvery once in a while, I get this song in my head; and I feel like God sort of gave me one for you two. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> He wrote you a song, basically. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Wow! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> He seems to do this when\u2014Eric you lead worship, and you write music. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019ve actually heard that you write parodies and sort of fun stuff. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> I do; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I thought\/I thought that was what this was going to be: a parody. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> We\u2019ve never been serenaded before. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What? You haven\u2019t?! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> This is wonderful; no. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Here is the thing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Well, we should wait until afterwards to say whether it is wonderful. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; you will. You will have to say if it\u2019s worthy. [Laughter] But FamilyLife will decide whether they even keep this in the broadcast. This is like an audition, because I don\u2019t really sing; but\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Do you have your words? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> [Guitar strumming] Just\u2014again, last night, sitting there\u2014and this came to me; and it\u2019s not funny. It ended up being more serious, because I think what you are doing is <em>powerfully<\/em> elevating the dignity of women. This is sort of what is happening [Dave singing]: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Eric and Elyse have been called by God,\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0a he and a she, bringing dignity to the she\u2019s. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0They are revealing God\u2019s heart for she.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0They are free, \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tall she\u2019s, to feel worthy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Wor-r-r-thy; she is worthy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And God says, \u201cI see you,\u201d \u201cI hear you,\u201d \u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0and \u201cI want you to feel worthy.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Applause] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yay! Oh, my goodness! Oh, my goodness! That\u2019s <em>so<\/em> wonderful. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> We need to get that for our podcast. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes, we <em>do<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You do! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, you\u2019re being just patronizing to me; whatever. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>Good job.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> No! No! That was <em>wonderful<\/em>. Thank you; I\u2019m encouraged.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> No; I mean, honestly, as I sat there with my guitar last night, I thought, \u201cI\u2019m going <em>fun<\/em>; I\u2019m going to call Eric the woman guy\u201d\u2014you know? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Do you a little parody on you; but I felt like you two <em>are<\/em> like a gift\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014to the church, especially for the she\u2019s\/the women of the world that often have felt devalued and lost their dignity in the body of Christ. I <em>love<\/em> what you\u2019ve done; because you\u2019ve said, \u201cWe need to bring the <em>gospel<\/em> to this conversation.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m thinking\/I\u2019m guessing\u2014right?\u2014you feel like that has sort of been missing?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes, very much so. In the discussions of gender and what roles women should play\/men should play, the topic that has been missing is the gospel; in particular, the incarnation. When you start at Genesis, which is fine\u2014talking about how men and women should relate\u2014that\u2019s fine; but then, if you start at Genesis and then don\u2019t remember, Philippians 2, you\u2019re going to miss something. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019d like to read just a short passage\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, yes; please do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> \u2014from Philippians 2:5; I\u2019ll just read 5-9: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAdopt the same attitude as that of Christ Jesus\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is the imperative; there is the command: \u201cWe are to have <em>this<\/em> attitude.\u201d What we wanted to do in <em>Jesus and Gender<\/em>\/we want to bring <em>this<\/em> attitude into our relationships as sisters and brothers. So what\u2019s the attitude?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\twho existing in the form of God did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited;\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tChrist [has] preeminent authority\u2014but perhaps, I have some authority; or Eric, you have some sort of authority\u2014I don\u2019t want to exploit that authority. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\twho existing in the form of God did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited; instead He emptied Himself by assuming the form of a servant, taking on the likeness of humanity. When He had come as a man, the fullness of God becoming as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat we wanted to do was say: \u201cOkay, let\u2019s talk about relationships between men and women. But let\u2019s base our discussion on what should happen: on how I should think about Eric as my brother, how I should think about you as my sister. Let\u2019s start that conversation <em>with this<\/em>: \u2018 I\u2019m going to empty myself and take on the attitude of a servant.\u2019\u201d That\u2019s what the gospel has to say, I think, to gender relations. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Instead of that, what does it look like? What do you <em>see<\/em>? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Well, what it looks like is people staking out territory <em>on both sides<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s one of the things that we wanted to say in this book was: \u201cWe are not staking out territory on either side.\u201d So if you are very, very conservative; or if you are more progressive, we\u2019re not saying, \u201cHey, we\u2019re with you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat we\u2019re saying is: \u201cIf you are asking the question, \u2018Who gets to be in charge?\u2019\u2014wherever you happen to be, asking that question from, you\u2019ve missed the point.\u201d Because Jesus, over and over and over again, to the disciples, kept saying to them: \u201cIt\u2019s not about who gets to be the best, or who gets to be the highest, or who gets to be the ruler, or you want to be called the benefactor. No; actually, if you are going to follow Me, what you are going to do is you are going to lay down your life, and you\u2019re going to give it up for the lives of others.\u201d <em>That\u2019s<\/em> got to be the rubric that informs how I think about my relationship with men and women\/with brothers and sisters. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes; and we think the reason that that is important is that passage she just read from Philippians 2 is Paul\u2019s command to both men and women\u2014\u201chave this mind\u201d\u2014the mind of Christ. There is not a female mind of Christ and a male mind of Christ; there is one mind of Christ for <em>both<\/em>. Both men and women are being conformed into the image of Jesus. In fact, the author of Hebrews says that He had to be made like His brothers and sisters in every respect, so that He could be a merciful high priest. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s not that women go to some different source for a model of who they are supposed to be. Jesus is the perfect human being, so both men and women can look to Him to <em>learn<\/em> how to live. When you look through Paul\u2019s epistles, there are a few places where he speaks to fathers, to husbands, to wives; but for the most part, his letters are <em>full<\/em> of commands about what it means to be sanctified. These are not given to us as male traits and female traits; they are given to us as traits of what Christ is like. There is not a female way to put on Christ and a male way to put on Christ; we\u2019re called to put on Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe wanted to start, not with Genesis\u2014though, Elyse said, that is a fine place to start: you read a book from beginning to end\u2014but you understand a book by reading it from the end, back to the beginning; because once you\u2019ve reached the end, you know what it is about; now, you interpret everything through that light. And Christ is the end of all things, so we wanted to <em>start with Him<\/em> in order to understand men and women. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNot only that\u2014the gospel\/the message of Jesus Christ: who doesn\u2019t exploit His deity, who takes on the form of a slave, lives a perfect life on our behalf, dies as our substitute under the wrath of God\u2014He <em>serves<\/em> us, and then He is raised from the dead so that He can justify us and raise us from the dead. From beginning to end, Jesus is a <em>servant<\/em>. That gospel\/that message is the power of God for salvation. That message is the <em>only<\/em> thing that has the power to transform us, as men and women, to be people who are like Christ. If we are not <em>starting<\/em> with the power of God for salvation, what\u2019s going to come of it? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s a really good place to start <em>because<\/em>\u2014I\u2019m just thinking back in my younger years\u2014I\u2019m kind of a strong woman\/more of a leader. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> She understated that a little bit. [Laughter] She\u2019s very strong, and it\u2019s one of the things I love about her! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> My mom was an <em>amazing<\/em> wife; but if I had to categorize her, growing up, I would have said, \u201cMy mom is a <em>doormat<\/em>, and my mom takes advantage of that.\u201d So growing up, I thought, \u201cI will <em>never<\/em> be that.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen I give my life to Jesus; and I\u2019m faced with this decision, \u201cWhat will I do?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And I like this, because I <em>am willing<\/em> to lay my life down, as a woman, knowing that Jesus has done that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and that Jesus isn\u2019t going to ask anything of me that wouldn\u2019t be good for me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven as a woman, listening: \u201cHave you laid down your life in saying, \u2018Jesus, I am willing to give You everything; and I am willing to follow You\u2019?\u201d I think, as a woman, we\u2019re\u2014if you don\u2019t know the Word, that can be scary\u2014because all of these pictures come into your head of what it means to be a woman of God: \u201cAm I a doormat?\u201d \u201cAm I someone who can use my gifts of leadership or serving?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cDo I have a voice?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cDo I have a voice?\u201d But I like where you\u2019ve started. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> One of the things that I <em>love<\/em> about what you just said, Ann, is that: \u201cI want to make a <em>decision<\/em> to lay down my life.\u201d One of the things that I think has really been missing in some ways is the understanding that, as women, we have agency to <em>freely<\/em> lay down our lives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> What that means is not that I become a doormat. What that means is that I am doing that from a position of <em>strength<\/em>. So from a position of strength, then, I say, \u201cBecause Christ has done this for me, I am now <em>free<\/em> to give my life away.\u201d As a woman, then\u2014you know, you talked about being a helper and that definition\u2014those words in Genesis about being a helper; those are <em>not<\/em> weak words. Those are <em>powerful<\/em>, almost militaristic words. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; that word, <em>ezer<\/em>, in Hebrew\u2014you guys write about that\u2014explain what that means. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Well, basically, it means a strong ally, someone who comes alongside you to assist you in an important assignment. Most of the time, it is used of God in His relationship to Israel. God is the Helper of His people; so we dare not define that word to mean \u201csubservient\u201d; \u201cweak\u201d; \u201coptional.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of our friends says, \u201cSometimes, women are treated like throw pillows. They are nice, but they are not necessary;\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Yes! \u201cThey are pretty to have around the church.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cI mean, if you have one.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cif you have one.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> But what God is saying in Genesis 2 is: \u201cThis is really bad,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s what that \u201cnot good\u201d means there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong> \u201cThis cannot be that the man would be alone\u201d; so that means she is <em>necessary<\/em>. What we see in Genesis, as God creates the woman from Adam\u2019s side, presents her to him\u2014his first exclamation is: \u201cThis is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh.\u201d He had been presented animals before; they are not the same flesh. What he is saying there is not\u2014\u201cThis is someone different than me,\u201d\u2014he is saying, \u201cThis person is the same as me; she has the same nature as me.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then, Moses adds: \u201cThis is the reason that a man will leave his father and mother and cling to\u201d\u2014or bond with\u2014\u201chis wife, and they will be one flesh.\u201d And it\u2019s interesting because, in the culture of that day, it wasn\u2019t the man who left his family. The woman left her family\/came to be part of his. I think we get a glimpse of the gospel right there that this man is going to be <em>willing<\/em> to leave his family\u2014the protection and security of a family\u2014to pursue unity with his wife for the sake of cooperating together in this creation mandate that God has given them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s what it ought to look like <em>today<\/em>; that as brothers and sisters, or husbands and wives, we ought to be willing to <em>sacrifice<\/em> for the sake of unity\u2014that\u2019s even what Paul says to husbands\u2014\u201cLay down your lives because she is your flesh.\u201d And we want to sacrifice for the sake of being unified, as brothers and sisters, to cooperate together in fulfilling the Great Commission of Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I tell you\u2014I want to get into that conversation about marriage next, because we don\u2019t have time right now\u2014but just listening to you two, and even Ann\u2014as a husband and as a man\u2014I have a vision in my mind of women totally different, honestly. I think I already had this vision; I understood <em>ezer<\/em>. I\u2019ve studied that from the journey Ann talked about, from when we thought it was just helper and helpmeet to that equal partner and confidant. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is a part of me that just\u2014I saw a vision of women being so valuable and worthy that I don\u2019t ever want to look at Ann any\u2014when you said, \u201cthrow pillow,\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cOh my goodness! That has been so often what we\u2019ve done.\u201d You have just given us God\u2019s vision for men <em>and<\/em> women from Philippians 2. What a <em>perfect<\/em> place to start\/to say,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, and it starts with that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cGive it all away.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014surrender;\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and \u201cHave <em>you<\/em> done that?\u201d \u201cHave <em>I<\/em> done that?\u201d\u2014because it is something that we don\u2019t just do one time; but it\u2019s an act of obedience of doing it over and over: \u201cJesus, I lay down my life for You today\u201d and \u201cHow do You want to use me today?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> The topic of gender can often make us feel a little bit confused, or even sometimes a little bit scared, to engage in the conversation; but when we look to Jesus Himself\u2014the Suffering Servant, the gentle and lowly example of what it means to lay down your life and give it to others\u2014things start to become very, very clear. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>Dave and Ann Wilson have been talking today with Elyse Fitzpatrick and Eric Schumacher. They\u2019ve written a book called <em>Jesus and Gender: Living as Sisters and Brothers in Christ<\/em>. By becoming more like Jesus and coming <em>to<\/em> Jesus, women and men can find rest. Men and women are allies in God\u2019s mission. You can find <em>Jesus and Gender<\/em> in our FamilyLife Resource Center by heading to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, and order a copy there; or you can give us a call at 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, many of you know that the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is listener-supported. When you head to our website, at FamilyLifeToday.com, and make a donation of any amount, we\u2019re going to send you a copy of <em>So Long, Normal<\/em>. Laura Story was on our program earlier this week, talking about what it means to process the trauma of the loss of our normal. We believe in this resource so much; so when you make a donation of any amount at FamilyLifeToday.com, we\u2019re going to send you a copy of Laura Story\u2019s book, <em>So Long, Normal<\/em>, as a way of saying, \u201cThank you for helping to support this ministry.\u201d Again, you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call us at 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf this conversation today, or any of our FamilyLife programs have been helpful for you, we\u2019d love for you to share today\u2019s podcast with a family member or friend. And wherever you get your podcasts, it could really advance the gospel effort of what we are doing at FamilyLife if you\u2019d scroll down and rate and review us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>Now, tomorrow, Dave and Ann Wilson are going to be continuing their conversation with Elyse Fitzpatrick and Eric Schumacher about readjusting our mindset when it comes to men and women, centered around, specifically, God\u2019s Great Commission. That\u2019s coming up tomorrow. We hope you can join us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2022 FamilyLife. 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