{"id":307451,"date":"2022-03-30T08:02:11","date_gmt":"2022-03-30T12:02:11","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/how-do-i-find-god-while-suffering\/"},"modified":"2022-03-30T08:02:11","modified_gmt":"2022-03-30T12:02:11","slug":"how-do-i-find-god-while-suffering","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-do-i-find-god-while-suffering\/","title":{"rendered":"How Do I Find God While Suffering?"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>How do you appreciate God&#8217;s gifts through loss and pain? Author Joe Rigney urges listeners to press into the pain while suffering to obtain a deeper connection to the Lord and realize their true gifts..<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2022-03-30.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:24:47","filesize":"22.69M","filesize_raw":"23797281","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822],"tags":[7063],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[9689],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307451","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","tag-while-suffering","cwp_profile-joe-rigney","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307451\/how-do-i-find-god-while-suffering","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307451\/how-do-i-find-god-while-suffering","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"QbRhNas30w\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-do-i-find-god-while-suffering\/\">How Do I Find God While Suffering?<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-do-i-find-god-while-suffering\/embed\/#?secret=QbRhNas30w\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;How Do I Find God While Suffering?&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"QbRhNas30w\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2022-03-30.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2022-03-30.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\tSuffering is the way how we determine whether we really treasure God above everything or whether that\u2019s just words we sang. Whatever we say about this subject has to be able to face the fact that every good thing that you have will one day be lost; it will be lost. How do you think about that? How do you orient towards that reality? Suffering does press on those deep places of our soul, because it shows how precious the things of earth can be to us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> One of the places I\u2019ve experienced God the most is not on the mountaintop; it\u2019s in the valley. True for you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Absolutely. I have felt\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Why did you pause?<br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I was wondering what that valley would be for you. But I think that\u2019s when we have needed Him the most and when I have <em>felt<\/em> Him the most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I remember, in college, going in for my second knee surgery. After the first one, I said, \u201cI\u2019m quitting football if this ever happens again,\u201d\u2014I\u2019m on a scholarship; it\u2019s my life at the time\u2014laying there in Ball Memorial Hospital in Muncie, Indiana, mad at God, not understanding what\u2019s going on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI look back now and realize it was one of my deepest worship moments with God. It didn\u2019t feel like it at the time; but I experienced Him in a way I probably never had before, and it was through suffering. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019ve experienced that as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; I think, when my sister passed away\u2014and she was in her 40s, leaving her \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t4 sons\u2014I mean, there was a part of me that couldn\u2019t understand. But there was another part of me that needed God so <em>desperately<\/em> that I had to draw so close, because I had nowhere else to go. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, we\u2019re going to talk a little bit about: \u201cWhere do you find God in your life?\u201d Suffering is one of those places; it\u2019s sort of the place you don\u2019t always expect to find Him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve got Joe Rigney <em>back<\/em> in the studio. Joe, welcome back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> It\u2019s good to be here. Thanks for having me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019re much more than a pastor in Minneapolis\u2014president of Bethlehem College and Seminary\u2014you sort of like to plug that a little bit.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> I do; l love talking about the school. It\u2019s a great privilege to be president and professor there. We seek to offer an education in serious joy, which is related to what you just brought up there about life is hard. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You\u2019re a dad.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> I\u2019m a dad.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You\u2019re a husband.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> I\u2019m a husband. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014baseball coach. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> \u2014baseball coach. I wear a lot of different hats. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> I have to kind of keep them straight sometimes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I don\u2019t know anybody else that\u2019s tackled what you\u2019ve tackled. But in your book, <em>Strangely Bright: Can You Love God and Enjoy This World?<\/em>, you go after that tension between living for the supremacy of Christ in our life and loving things of this world. That\u2019s <em>not<\/em> a bad thing; it\u2019s a tension that we can actually balance. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> When we talk about this whole topic of: \u201cHow do we love the world\/love the things of this earth in a way that honors God?\u201d\u2014on the one hand\u2014\u201cWe want to enjoy God in everything and everything in God.\u201d I talk about that as the integrated approach\u2014they\u2019re <em>together<\/em>; you don\u2019t have to choose\u2014\u201cYou love football for God\u2019s sake\u201d; \u201cYou love baseball for God\u2019s sake\u201d; \u201cYou love your food for God\u2019s sake\/for the glory of God.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen there\u2019s this comparative approach, where you separate the gifts and the Giver. It\u2019s kind of a gut check moment: \u201cIf you had to choose between all of the gifts or God Himself, which one do you want?\u201d We do this in worship when we sing <em>All I Have Is Christ<\/em>\u2014that song\u2014we love singing that song at my church: \u201cAll I have is Christ.\u201d \u201cDo you mean that?\u2014\u201cAll\u201d\u2014that\u2019s a big word. Or when David [said] \u201cThere\u2019s nothing I desire beside you [Psalm 73:25]\u201d; \u201cI count everything as rubbish compared to knowing Jesus [Philippians 3:8],\u201d\u2014those kind of passages\u2014we want to sing those.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSuffering is when God makes us put our money where our mouth is: \u201cYou say that, but what if I take your leg? Is it still true? \u2014that song you sang at church\u2014does that\/did you <em>mean<\/em> it?\u201d Suffering is the involuntary way\u2014we don\u2019t choose it\u2014but it\u2019s the way that we test: \u201cDo you love God more than\u2026\u201d\u2014fill in the blank.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Some people just heard that and thought, \u201cDoes God take our legs out? Is that <em>God<\/em>?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> He absolutely does.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014because?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> \u2014because He loves us, and He want us to have more of <em>Him<\/em>. There are things that He does in our souls in loss that He does not do anywhere else. All through the Bible, whether you run from a story like Joseph\u2014all the evil that happened to Joseph; the brothers selling him; Potiphar\u2019s wife lying about him, getting thrown in prison\u2014at the end of his life, he says, \u201cYou meant evil against me; God meant if for good. God sent me here. God had purposes in this [Genesis 50:20].\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJob\u2014same thing\u2014right? Satan\u2014sure, Satan\u2019s doing it\u2014and all of these people are robbing him and everything else\u2014but who was ultimately behind all of that? God was. Why?\u2014because God loved Job; He wanted to <em>show<\/em> him more of Himself. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSuffering is the way how we determine whether we really treasure God above everything or whether that\u2019s just words we say. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I was writing this book, there\u2019s a funny story when I was first getting into this project. I don\u2019t know how much your listeners are familiar with the ministry of John Piper. John\u2019s a friend and a mentor; he\u2019s the chancellor of our school and has been one of the main influences on my life. I was working on this book. At the time, it was a sermon. I was excited about it, so I was telling him about it: \u201cWe enjoy God in everything; we enjoy everything in God,\u201d and all this kind of stuff. He\u2019s listening to me very patiently and, then, he looks at me; he says, \u201c\u2026until you die.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s what he said? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> That\u2019s what he said. He just looked at me\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That sounds like John. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> It does; it\u2019s a very Piper thing to say. It is true; like that\u2019s actually true. Yes, all of these things are good; and you\u2019re going to die, and you\u2019re going to lose them; you\u2019re going to lose them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhatever we say about this subject has to be able to face the fact that: every good thing that you have will, one day, be lost. It will be lost: \u201cHow do you think about that? How do you orient towards that reality?\u201d Suffering does press on those deep places of our soul, because it shows how precious the things of earth can be to us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI don\u2019t mean just like in idolatrous ways\u2014like somebody breaks into my house and steals my stuff\u2014and \u201cOh, that\u2019s sad.\u201d We should\/the Bible talks about rejoicing when your property is plundered, because you have hope in God; that\u2019s a good thing. But I\u2019m talking about the ones like, when a baby dies, or the family breaks up\u2014just the hard, whether it\u2019s from sin or just natural suffering, any of those sort of situations\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014or the brokenness of the world.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> \u2014the brokenness of the world. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen that lands on us\u2014we live in a broken and cursed world\u2014when that comes crashing down upon us\u2014the cancer returns; and you have to go, \u201cWhat is God wanting?\u201d\u2014and it\u2019s God is trying to take you deeper through the pain.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Have you experienced that? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> One hundred percent\/all the time\u2014both in my personal life but then, also, I\u2019m a pastor: I shepherd students\u2014and just this <em>stuff<\/em> that comes in just wave after wave after wave\u2014that\u2019s how it feels sometimes\u2014just wave after wave after wave. At some point, you actually start to laugh; because you\u2019re like, \u201cI am absolutely <em>wrecked<\/em>.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLast week, we had our pastors\u2019 conference. One of the pastors, who was speaking, was Kenny Stokes; he\u2019s the pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church. His message was on: \u201cMy Grace Is Sufficient for You; My Power Is Made Perfect in Weakness [2 Corinthians 12:9].\u201d It was just: \u201cHere\u2019s the passage; and here\u2019s story, after story, after story, after story of the way that God just <em>wrecks us<\/em> and then His grace is sufficient. It\u2019s just underneath there.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYes, I\u2019ve got all kinds of pain.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We all do.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> We all do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, as you said\u2014as a pastor or just as a fellow human, walking this planet\u2014we hear stories on both sides of suffering. You hear\/I always used to say: \u201cTrials will make you better or bitter; the choice is yours.\u201d We have a choice in that: some become better and closer to Christ and experience the goodness of God, even in the evilness of a suffering moment; and others walk away.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat determines\/how do you experience what you\u2019ve been describing: \u201cHard times but a good God\u201d? Some people don\u2019t experience that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> That\u2019s right; it does present us with a choice. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen we think about this\u2014as pastors\/our pastoral team is\u2014part of our calling is to try to prepare people for the moment when they need it. I don\u2019t want to be trying to manufacture the big God theology in the moment of suffering; that\u2019s not the time. I want to lay deep roots in the Bible about: \u201cGod works all things together for good \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Romans 8:28]\u201d and \u201cHe\u2019s for you; He\u2019s not against you,\u201d and \u201cThis is ultimately for your joy.\u201d I want\u2014\u201cLiving is Christ; dying is gain [Philippians 1:21]\u201d\u2014I want that to be the flavor and the ballast that they have; so that, when the storm comes, they have it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPart of it is, sometimes, people don\u2019t have it. Their theology is so superficial; it\u2019s so trivial\u2014it\u2019s all sunshine, and roses, and lollipops\u2014and they have <em>no<\/em> category for deep suffering and God\u2019s purposes in it. As a pastor, part of my goal is to preach the Bible\/teach the Bible in such a way that there is a <em>depth of faith and grounding in the grace of God<\/em> that is stabilizing: \u201cGod is my very present help in times of trouble. I will not fear though the earth give way and though the water roar and foam; the mountains be thrown into the heart of the sea. I won\u2019t fear, because He\u2019s my very present help [Psalm 46:1-2],\u201d\u2014I want that <em>before<\/em> the storm comes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I remember hearing Tony Evans on the radio, probably 30 years ago, talk about: \u201cYou don\u2019t see the cement guys pouring the foundation in the storm\/in the rain.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014in the tornado. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> He said, \u201cThey\u2019re pouring it on that day that\u2019s sunny.\u201d I remember going home, thinking\u2014I mean, I was young\u2014and I thought, \u201cI better start pouring my foundation when the times are good, and I can go deep and lay those great foundations.\u201d It\u2019s kind of like the building your house on the sand or the rock in Matthew 7. That made me think, \u201cI need to be in the Word every day.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cI need to be in fellowship every day.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo when we\u2019re faced with that trial\u2014my sister\u2019s death\u2014I told Dave, \u201cI have enough foundation; it\u2019s rocking, and the storm is just pummeling me.\u201d You have all kinds of questions going through your head, like, \u201cWhy? What is the purpose? I don\u2019t see any point to this. Yet, I know, because I\u2019ve been in the Word, God, You are good; You have a purpose. You love me, and I can trust You.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> But you\u2019re right. If we don\u2019t have that foundation poured, it gets rocky.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> One of the texts that we quote a lot\u2014this is homework\u2014I\u2019m a professor; I can give homework. [Laughter] In Habakkuk, Chapter 3 [verses17-18], he says: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThough the fig tree should not blossom,\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tnor fruit be on the vines,\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tthe produce of the olive fail\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tand the fields yield no food,\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tthe flock be cut off from the fold\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tand there be no herd in the stalls,\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tyet I will rejoice in the LORD;\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI will take joy in the God of my salvation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow here\u2019s the homework: you should, at some point, take an inventory and go: \u201cWhat\u2019s your fig tree, and fruit, and olive, and flocks? Put <em>your<\/em> things in place of his [Habakkuk], because you probably don\u2019t have fig trees or flocks.\u201d If you say, \u201cThere\u2019s no herds in the stalls,\u201d\u2014you say\u2014\u201cThat\u2019s just Tuesday; that\u2019s just a normal\u2014I <em>never<\/em> have herds in the stalls.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What are yours, Joe?\u2014like if you had to go through, what would you say?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> It would be things like: \u201cThough my kids die in a car wreck,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s what it would be. \u201cThough my wife get cancer,\u201d\u2014right?\u2014it would be that sort of thing. \u201cThough my father gets dementia and Parkinson\u2019s,\u201d\u2014like he did. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s preparing the soul for that moment and saying, \u201cIf that happens, what am I going to do?\u201d I want to say, \u201cI want to be like Habakkuk; \u201cI will take joy in the God of my salvation.\u201d That\u2019s what I want.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s\u2014when we talk at Bethlehem College and Seminary about education in serious joy\u2014that\u2019s what we mean. Because that joy is not light, and trivial, and worthless; it\u2019s substantive. It\u2019s a kind of thing that storms beat on\u2014use that image from Matthew 7\u2014the storms beat on it, but it\u2019s a <em>rock<\/em>. I want to build that into my life and into the lives of those around me, because that\u2019s coming for all of us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I\u2019m guessing there\u2019s a listener, right now, they\u2019re <em>in it.<\/em> \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>If we could even look at their life, the storm is raging\u2014their walls have been beat down\u2014they\u2019re listening and feeling like, \u201cI don\u2019t think I can muster up rejoicing in this. What do I do?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> \u201cWhat does love look like when the object of love is being taken?\u201d You\u2019ve got someone, who is dying of an illness or something. What it looks like is\u2014tears; it looks like grief; it looks like weeping and wailing, and saying, \u201cWhy?\u201d\u2014that\u2019s what it looks like. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the quotes I came across when my dad was: \u201cIt hurts just as much as it\u2019s worth,\u201d \u201cIt hurts as much as\u2026\u201d In other words, \u201cPain\u2014the pain\/how much it hurts\u2014\u201cis a measure of the value that you place on whatever it is.\u201d It\u2019s like: \u201cWell, my dad was really valuable to me; that\u2019s why it hurts so bad.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn the one hand, you don\u2019t run from the pain; that\u2019s part of it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Lament.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> You lament; you grieve. I think this is where, again, the Bible is such an encouragement; you should grieve like Bible people grieve\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> \u2014which is like tear your clothes, pour ashes on you head, and cry for seven days\u2014that\u2019s what you do; that\u2019s biblical grief. You\u2019ve got the Psalms that are: \u201cWhere are You; why aren\u2019t You here?\u201d That\u2019s what faith does in those kind of circumstances. You don\u2019t have to just stoically shove it down and act like it doesn\u2019t hurt as much as it does. That\u2019s just a lie. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think this happens\u2014I know it happens in our circles; I don\u2019t know how widespread it is around in other churches and other communities\u2014when God is taking something precious, you can feel like, \u201cI feel guilty, because of how much it hurts.\u201d You feel that guilt; because \u201cIf I really loved God, I wouldn\u2019t grieve this way.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI just want to say, \u201cNo, no, no; if you really loved God, and you love His gifts\u2014and you\u2019re saying, \u2018Thank You,\u2019 for the gifts when they are there\u2014when they get taken, you\u2019re going to grieve.\u201d Think about Jesus at the tomb of Lazarus. He didn\u2019t go, because He loved them [John 11:5-6]; so He didn\u2019t go heal him. And when He shows up, and they\u2019re like, \u201cIf You\u2019d have been here\u2026\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cWhere were You?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> \u201cIf you\u2019d have been\u2026.\u201d Both of them come, and they say the same\u2014it\u2019s the same question\u2014\u201cIf You would have been here, my brother wouldn\u2019t have died [John 11:21,32].\u201d What do you think <em>they<\/em> had been talking about for four days? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> What had been the conversation in that room? It was just that question: \u201cIf He\u2019d have been here\u2026\u201d \u201cIf He\u2019d have been here\u2026\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen what does Jesus do? He\u2019s troubled in spirit, and He weeps. He weeps with them <em>five minutes before He brings Lazarus out<\/em>. He didn\u2019t just kind of stroll in there, with a smile on His face; \u201cI got this.\u201d He says, \u201cI know it hurts; death is <em>awful<\/em>. It\u2019s <em>awful<\/em>; I hate it. I\u2019m about to conquer it. I\u2019m the resurrection and the life [John 11:25].\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTo the person, who <em>feels<\/em> the loss right now, I want to say: \u201cGod does have purposes here. He\u2019s not distant from this. He\u2019s in this, and you\u2019re only going to find Him if you press into the pain; and go down and you meet Jesus, who is the \u201cman of sorrows and acquainted with grief [Isaiah 53:3].\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Would you say that\u2019s the same for the person <em>longing<\/em> for something that maybe will never happen, like a child? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> Yes, absolutely; I mean, there\u2019s different kinds of suffering; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tYou have the suffering of loss\u2014my dad died\u2014I had him, and I lost him. \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tThen you\u2019ve got the suffering of longing: \u201cI want to have a husband or a wife.\u201d A couple who wants to have children: \u201cI\u2019m longing for those things, and God\u2019s not giving what I want Him to give. It hurts as much as it\u2019s worth. \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><p>\n\t\t\t\tGo to Him with it and pray, and let Him be your ultimate comfort. He\u2019s \u201cthe God of all comfort [2 Corinthians 1:3].\u201d That\u2019s one of His <em>names<\/em> in the Bible. It\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> name; He\u2019s the God of <em>all<\/em> comfort. \u201cHe comforts us in our affliction so that we can comfort those in any affliction with the comfort that we have received from Christ \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[2 Corinthians 1:4].\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s interesting how you\u2019ve processed that, because it\u2019s so healthy. I think, often, we\u2019ve been taught, or we think, \u201cIf I lament about the loss of a relationship, or a thing, or a certain future,\u201d\u2014or like Ann said\u2014\u201cI lament that I\u2019m not going to be able to get what I hope for,\u201d\u2014a child, a marriage, whatever\u2014\u201cthat means I value that thing or that person too much, because I\u2019m lamenting it.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019re saying, \u201cNo, no, no, no; that\u2019s actually <em>healthy<\/em>. It\u2019s okay; it\u2019s actually the process to making sure Christ is supreme in your life.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. It\u2019s: \u201cBring the heartache to God; cast the burden on Him \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[1 Peter 5:7].\u201d That\u2019s what it tells us to do\u2014with that pain, and that suffering, and that loss and that longing\u2014is to bring it to God and lay it before His feet. God\u2019s not threatened by His gifts. He\u2019s not threatened by His gifts, which means He\u2019s not threatened when you really want them\u2014and it hurts because you lost them, or it hurts because you\u2019re not getting them\u2014He\u2019s not threatened by that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe danger comes\u2014you can commit idolatry\u2014you think about Job\u2019s wife. What was the problem? She experienced the same loss\u2014horrible loss: ten children <em>gone<\/em>; all the stuff <em>gone<\/em>\u2014and Job says, \u201cThe Lord gives; the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord [Job 1:21].\u201d He worships through tears; and she says, \u201cCurse God and die \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Job 2:9].\u201d You can sin in grief. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is a thing in the modern world, where people think pain and grief and loss is an excuse. It\u2019s not an excuse; but it\u2019s rightly channeling all of that pain and bringing it to Him, and saying, \u201cGod, this is too much for me; I need Your grace to be sufficient; I need Your grace to be sufficient in my weakness and my affliction now.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I would add: \u201cDon\u2019t lament alone.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Even the biblical examples, they\u2019re always with community. If the community rejects you, because you\u2019re lamenting; it\u2019s the wrong community. They should be wrapping their arms and saying, \u201cI feel your pain, dude; let me walk with you and point you back as long as it takes. But let\u2019s go on that journey together.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You\u2019ve talked about losing your dad. Did you guys have this common bond of baseball too? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> Yes, we did. You know, my dad died in 2013 after seven or eight years of Alzheimer\u2019s\/Parkinson\u2019s\u2014awful\u2014it\u2019s just a horrible way to die and to watch someone you love whither. As hard as it was on me, I know it was harder on my mom; she lost her best friend. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think I say this in the book: \u201cI miss him most on the baseball field. He\u2019s my coach.\u201d That was something that we bonded\u2014my brothers and I\/we all played baseball\u2014he coached us; that was like a bonding thing. Now, here I am, with kids of my own, and he\u2019s not present to be there. It is a thing that I feel the loss about March, April, May most, even though he died in November. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s so funny; because some people say, \u201cThat\u2019s shallow: baseball?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> It was the place where the relationship was forged and formed. So baseball was valuable, because my dad\u2019s valuable. Baseball\u2019s valuable to him, because I\u2019m valuable. He loved me; I loved him. This was one of the places, not the only, but one of the places where that happened. It\u2019s the same thing that\u2019s happened with me and my boys. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Will you be playing baseball in heaven with your dad?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> I have this thing\u2014I do talk about this in the book\u2014about how it\u2019s a mental imagination thing. I need to explain it carefully, because some people think it\u2019s kind of odd. There\u2019s a thing I don\u2019t get to have right now, which is Dad cheering while I\u2019m coaching and a son is playing. I think that would be a really sweet thing of earth\u2014that would be really bright\u2014it would be a happy thing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy father-in-law, my wife\u2019s dad, he does that; and it\u2019s so glorious. I\u2019m so glad that he steps in there to be present. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, you\u2019re whole book\u2019s about that; but I literally went back to a moment of her dad, who\u2019s the biggest Cleveland Browns fan in the world, sitting in Cleveland stadium. I\u2019m on the sideline with the Detroit Lions; we\u2019re playing a preseason game there, and my son\u2019s playing for the Lions; so there it is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> Yes, sweet!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It was like the sweetest moment ever\u2014who cares what happened in the game\u2014it was like this thing that we share. So you\u2019ve got that with baseball and a dad who\u2019s passed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. Then I go, \u201cIn heaven, I imagine my dad watching the game that my son\u2019s playing and I\u2019m coaching. I imagine the joy I don\u2019t get now <em>there<\/em>.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cYou don\u2019t know that\u2019s going to happen; you don\u2019t know that\u2019s going to be.\u201d You\u2019re right; I don\u2019t, but it\u2019s a deep <em>longing<\/em>. What the Bible does tell me is: \u201cEye has not seen; ear has not heard, nor has the mind of man conceived what God has prepared for those who love Him [1 Corinthians 2:9].\u201d I\u2019m just trying to give God a workout. [Laughter] I\u2019m saying, \u201cI think this would be a glorious moment. So Lord, it needs to be either that good or better; and I am happy with better.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe goodness and greatness of God\u2014whatever the new heavens and new earth is like\/whatever we\u2019re going to be doing\u2014is going to far surpass our greatest joys here and our greatest longings here. No one is going to be disappointed. Part of what I\u2019m doing there is to say, \u201cThis is a deep pain; and therefore, it\u2019s a deep longing. Therefore, I expect, Lord, You promised You are going to meet it either that way or probably better.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That image that you just described, which you end the book with, is so well- written; it is such a great picture of what matters. Because the things that we enjoy on this earth are the relationships that matter. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI would just say to the dad\u2014and I know there\u2019s a mom listening, too; or the husband or the wife\u2014\u201cDon\u2019t miss an opportunity <em>today<\/em> to pour into the relationships that matter most to you.\u201d I\u2019m an older dad; now, I am a grandfather. I can say, [snapping sound] \u201cLike that, they\u2019re out of your house.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI can say this to you, Joe. Your sons are sitting over there\u2014they\u2019re young boys, becoming men\u2014your window is closing. If I could go back and do it again, I would seize more moments. I would just say, \u201cMan, don\u2019t miss that moment. These relationships matter. Go after them hard, because God is smiling on those moments.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> That was Dave and Ann Wilson, talking with Joe Rigney on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. If you\u2019d like a copy of Joe\u2019s book, <em>Strangely Bright<\/em>, you can grab it online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can give us a call at 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat if I told you that the foundation of your marriage isn\u2019t all on you to figure out? Well, FamilyLife\u2019s <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> is three days for you and your spouse to get away together to hear from great speakers and connect over God\u2019s Word. Whether you want to take a road trip, or stay close to home, there\u2019s a FamilyLife <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> getaway for you. And when you sign up this week, you\u2019ll get over 40 percent off the regular registration price. You can find out more on FamilyLifeToday.com; or again, you could give us a call at 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you know of anyone who could benefit from today\u2019s conversation, we\u2019d love it if you\u2019d share this podcast wherever you get your podcasts. While you\u2019re there, it would really help us out if you\u2019d rate and review us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHave you and your spouse ever had a fight about money? No?\u2014just me?\u2014right, yes. In any case, being on the same page about saving for retirement is pretty much <em>always<\/em> a good thing. CJ Cagle is going to be joining Dave and Ann Wilson to talk through how to make planning for retirement not an opportunity to fight. That\u2019s coming up tomorrow. We hope you can join us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. I\u2019ll see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2022 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:24:47"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["22.69M"],"filesize_raw":["23797281"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-307451.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-307451.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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do you appreciate God's gifts through loss and pain? Author Joe Rigney urges listeners to press into the pain while suffering to obtain a deeper connection to the Lord and realize their true gifts..","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2022-03-30.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\tSuffering is the way how we determine whether we really treasure God above everything or whether that\u2019s just words we sang. Whatever we say about this subject has to be able to face the fact that every good thing that you have will one day be lost; it will be lost. How do you think about that? How do you orient towards that reality? Suffering does press on those deep places of our soul, because it shows how precious the things of earth can be to us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> One of the places I\u2019ve experienced God the most is not on the mountaintop; it\u2019s in the valley. True for you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Absolutely. I have felt\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Why did you pause?<br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I was wondering what that valley would be for you. But I think that\u2019s when we have needed Him the most and when I have <em>felt<\/em> Him the most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I remember, in college, going in for my second knee surgery. After the first one, I said, \u201cI\u2019m quitting football if this ever happens again,\u201d\u2014I\u2019m on a scholarship; it\u2019s my life at the time\u2014laying there in Ball Memorial Hospital in Muncie, Indiana, mad at God, not understanding what\u2019s going on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI look back now and realize it was one of my deepest worship moments with God. It didn\u2019t feel like it at the time; but I experienced Him in a way I probably never had before, and it was through suffering. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019ve experienced that as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; I think, when my sister passed away\u2014and she was in her 40s, leaving her \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t4 sons\u2014I mean, there was a part of me that couldn\u2019t understand. But there was another part of me that needed God so <em>desperately<\/em> that I had to draw so close, because I had nowhere else to go. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, we\u2019re going to talk a little bit about: \u201cWhere do you find God in your life?\u201d Suffering is one of those places; it\u2019s sort of the place you don\u2019t always expect to find Him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve got Joe Rigney <em>back<\/em> in the studio. Joe, welcome back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> It\u2019s good to be here. Thanks for having me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019re much more than a pastor in Minneapolis\u2014president of Bethlehem College and Seminary\u2014you sort of like to plug that a little bit.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> I do; l love talking about the school. It\u2019s a great privilege to be president and professor there. We seek to offer an education in serious joy, which is related to what you just brought up there about life is hard. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You\u2019re a dad.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> I\u2019m a dad.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You\u2019re a husband.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> I\u2019m a husband. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014baseball coach. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> \u2014baseball coach. I wear a lot of different hats. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> I have to kind of keep them straight sometimes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I don\u2019t know anybody else that\u2019s tackled what you\u2019ve tackled. But in your book, <em>Strangely Bright: Can You Love God and Enjoy This World?<\/em>, you go after that tension between living for the supremacy of Christ in our life and loving things of this world. That\u2019s <em>not<\/em> a bad thing; it\u2019s a tension that we can actually balance. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> When we talk about this whole topic of: \u201cHow do we love the world\/love the things of this earth in a way that honors God?\u201d\u2014on the one hand\u2014\u201cWe want to enjoy God in everything and everything in God.\u201d I talk about that as the integrated approach\u2014they\u2019re <em>together<\/em>; you don\u2019t have to choose\u2014\u201cYou love football for God\u2019s sake\u201d; \u201cYou love baseball for God\u2019s sake\u201d; \u201cYou love your food for God\u2019s sake\/for the glory of God.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen there\u2019s this comparative approach, where you separate the gifts and the Giver. It\u2019s kind of a gut check moment: \u201cIf you had to choose between all of the gifts or God Himself, which one do you want?\u201d We do this in worship when we sing <em>All I Have Is Christ<\/em>\u2014that song\u2014we love singing that song at my church: \u201cAll I have is Christ.\u201d \u201cDo you mean that?\u2014\u201cAll\u201d\u2014that\u2019s a big word. Or when David [said] \u201cThere\u2019s nothing I desire beside you [Psalm 73:25]\u201d; \u201cI count everything as rubbish compared to knowing Jesus [Philippians 3:8],\u201d\u2014those kind of passages\u2014we want to sing those.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSuffering is when God makes us put our money where our mouth is: \u201cYou say that, but what if I take your leg? Is it still true? \u2014that song you sang at church\u2014does that\/did you <em>mean<\/em> it?\u201d Suffering is the involuntary way\u2014we don\u2019t choose it\u2014but it\u2019s the way that we test: \u201cDo you love God more than\u2026\u201d\u2014fill in the blank.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Some people just heard that and thought, \u201cDoes God take our legs out? Is that <em>God<\/em>?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> He absolutely does.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014because?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> \u2014because He loves us, and He want us to have more of <em>Him<\/em>. There are things that He does in our souls in loss that He does not do anywhere else. All through the Bible, whether you run from a story like Joseph\u2014all the evil that happened to Joseph; the brothers selling him; Potiphar\u2019s wife lying about him, getting thrown in prison\u2014at the end of his life, he says, \u201cYou meant evil against me; God meant if for good. God sent me here. God had purposes in this [Genesis 50:20].\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJob\u2014same thing\u2014right? Satan\u2014sure, Satan\u2019s doing it\u2014and all of these people are robbing him and everything else\u2014but who was ultimately behind all of that? God was. Why?\u2014because God loved Job; He wanted to <em>show<\/em> him more of Himself. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSuffering is the way how we determine whether we really treasure God above everything or whether that\u2019s just words we say. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I was writing this book, there\u2019s a funny story when I was first getting into this project. I don\u2019t know how much your listeners are familiar with the ministry of John Piper. John\u2019s a friend and a mentor; he\u2019s the chancellor of our school and has been one of the main influences on my life. I was working on this book. At the time, it was a sermon. I was excited about it, so I was telling him about it: \u201cWe enjoy God in everything; we enjoy everything in God,\u201d and all this kind of stuff. He\u2019s listening to me very patiently and, then, he looks at me; he says, \u201c\u2026until you die.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s what he said? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> That\u2019s what he said. He just looked at me\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That sounds like John. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> It does; it\u2019s a very Piper thing to say. It is true; like that\u2019s actually true. Yes, all of these things are good; and you\u2019re going to die, and you\u2019re going to lose them; you\u2019re going to lose them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhatever we say about this subject has to be able to face the fact that: every good thing that you have will, one day, be lost. It will be lost: \u201cHow do you think about that? How do you orient towards that reality?\u201d Suffering does press on those deep places of our soul, because it shows how precious the things of earth can be to us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI don\u2019t mean just like in idolatrous ways\u2014like somebody breaks into my house and steals my stuff\u2014and \u201cOh, that\u2019s sad.\u201d We should\/the Bible talks about rejoicing when your property is plundered, because you have hope in God; that\u2019s a good thing. But I\u2019m talking about the ones like, when a baby dies, or the family breaks up\u2014just the hard, whether it\u2019s from sin or just natural suffering, any of those sort of situations\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014or the brokenness of the world.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> \u2014the brokenness of the world. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen that lands on us\u2014we live in a broken and cursed world\u2014when that comes crashing down upon us\u2014the cancer returns; and you have to go, \u201cWhat is God wanting?\u201d\u2014and it\u2019s God is trying to take you deeper through the pain.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Have you experienced that? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> One hundred percent\/all the time\u2014both in my personal life but then, also, I\u2019m a pastor: I shepherd students\u2014and just this <em>stuff<\/em> that comes in just wave after wave after wave\u2014that\u2019s how it feels sometimes\u2014just wave after wave after wave. At some point, you actually start to laugh; because you\u2019re like, \u201cI am absolutely <em>wrecked<\/em>.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLast week, we had our pastors\u2019 conference. One of the pastors, who was speaking, was Kenny Stokes; he\u2019s the pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church. His message was on: \u201cMy Grace Is Sufficient for You; My Power Is Made Perfect in Weakness [2 Corinthians 12:9].\u201d It was just: \u201cHere\u2019s the passage; and here\u2019s story, after story, after story, after story of the way that God just <em>wrecks us<\/em> and then His grace is sufficient. It\u2019s just underneath there.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYes, I\u2019ve got all kinds of pain.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We all do.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> We all do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, as you said\u2014as a pastor or just as a fellow human, walking this planet\u2014we hear stories on both sides of suffering. You hear\/I always used to say: \u201cTrials will make you better or bitter; the choice is yours.\u201d We have a choice in that: some become better and closer to Christ and experience the goodness of God, even in the evilness of a suffering moment; and others walk away.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat determines\/how do you experience what you\u2019ve been describing: \u201cHard times but a good God\u201d? Some people don\u2019t experience that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> That\u2019s right; it does present us with a choice. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen we think about this\u2014as pastors\/our pastoral team is\u2014part of our calling is to try to prepare people for the moment when they need it. I don\u2019t want to be trying to manufacture the big God theology in the moment of suffering; that\u2019s not the time. I want to lay deep roots in the Bible about: \u201cGod works all things together for good \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Romans 8:28]\u201d and \u201cHe\u2019s for you; He\u2019s not against you,\u201d and \u201cThis is ultimately for your joy.\u201d I want\u2014\u201cLiving is Christ; dying is gain [Philippians 1:21]\u201d\u2014I want that to be the flavor and the ballast that they have; so that, when the storm comes, they have it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPart of it is, sometimes, people don\u2019t have it. Their theology is so superficial; it\u2019s so trivial\u2014it\u2019s all sunshine, and roses, and lollipops\u2014and they have <em>no<\/em> category for deep suffering and God\u2019s purposes in it. As a pastor, part of my goal is to preach the Bible\/teach the Bible in such a way that there is a <em>depth of faith and grounding in the grace of God<\/em> that is stabilizing: \u201cGod is my very present help in times of trouble. I will not fear though the earth give way and though the water roar and foam; the mountains be thrown into the heart of the sea. I won\u2019t fear, because He\u2019s my very present help [Psalm 46:1-2],\u201d\u2014I want that <em>before<\/em> the storm comes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I remember hearing Tony Evans on the radio, probably 30 years ago, talk about: \u201cYou don\u2019t see the cement guys pouring the foundation in the storm\/in the rain.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014in the tornado. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> He said, \u201cThey\u2019re pouring it on that day that\u2019s sunny.\u201d I remember going home, thinking\u2014I mean, I was young\u2014and I thought, \u201cI better start pouring my foundation when the times are good, and I can go deep and lay those great foundations.\u201d It\u2019s kind of like the building your house on the sand or the rock in Matthew 7. That made me think, \u201cI need to be in the Word every day.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cI need to be in fellowship every day.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo when we\u2019re faced with that trial\u2014my sister\u2019s death\u2014I told Dave, \u201cI have enough foundation; it\u2019s rocking, and the storm is just pummeling me.\u201d You have all kinds of questions going through your head, like, \u201cWhy? What is the purpose? I don\u2019t see any point to this. Yet, I know, because I\u2019ve been in the Word, God, You are good; You have a purpose. You love me, and I can trust You.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> But you\u2019re right. If we don\u2019t have that foundation poured, it gets rocky.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> One of the texts that we quote a lot\u2014this is homework\u2014I\u2019m a professor; I can give homework. [Laughter] In Habakkuk, Chapter 3 [verses17-18], he says: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThough the fig tree should not blossom,\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tnor fruit be on the vines,\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tthe produce of the olive fail\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tand the fields yield no food,\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tthe flock be cut off from the fold\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tand there be no herd in the stalls,\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tyet I will rejoice in the LORD;\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI will take joy in the God of my salvation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow here\u2019s the homework: you should, at some point, take an inventory and go: \u201cWhat\u2019s your fig tree, and fruit, and olive, and flocks? Put <em>your<\/em> things in place of his [Habakkuk], because you probably don\u2019t have fig trees or flocks.\u201d If you say, \u201cThere\u2019s no herds in the stalls,\u201d\u2014you say\u2014\u201cThat\u2019s just Tuesday; that\u2019s just a normal\u2014I <em>never<\/em> have herds in the stalls.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What are yours, Joe?\u2014like if you had to go through, what would you say?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> It would be things like: \u201cThough my kids die in a car wreck,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s what it would be. \u201cThough my wife get cancer,\u201d\u2014right?\u2014it would be that sort of thing. \u201cThough my father gets dementia and Parkinson\u2019s,\u201d\u2014like he did. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s preparing the soul for that moment and saying, \u201cIf that happens, what am I going to do?\u201d I want to say, \u201cI want to be like Habakkuk; \u201cI will take joy in the God of my salvation.\u201d That\u2019s what I want.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s\u2014when we talk at Bethlehem College and Seminary about education in serious joy\u2014that\u2019s what we mean. Because that joy is not light, and trivial, and worthless; it\u2019s substantive. It\u2019s a kind of thing that storms beat on\u2014use that image from Matthew 7\u2014the storms beat on it, but it\u2019s a <em>rock<\/em>. I want to build that into my life and into the lives of those around me, because that\u2019s coming for all of us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I\u2019m guessing there\u2019s a listener, right now, they\u2019re <em>in it.<\/em> \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>If we could even look at their life, the storm is raging\u2014their walls have been beat down\u2014they\u2019re listening and feeling like, \u201cI don\u2019t think I can muster up rejoicing in this. What do I do?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> \u201cWhat does love look like when the object of love is being taken?\u201d You\u2019ve got someone, who is dying of an illness or something. What it looks like is\u2014tears; it looks like grief; it looks like weeping and wailing, and saying, \u201cWhy?\u201d\u2014that\u2019s what it looks like. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the quotes I came across when my dad was: \u201cIt hurts just as much as it\u2019s worth,\u201d \u201cIt hurts as much as\u2026\u201d In other words, \u201cPain\u2014the pain\/how much it hurts\u2014\u201cis a measure of the value that you place on whatever it is.\u201d It\u2019s like: \u201cWell, my dad was really valuable to me; that\u2019s why it hurts so bad.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn the one hand, you don\u2019t run from the pain; that\u2019s part of it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Lament.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> You lament; you grieve. I think this is where, again, the Bible is such an encouragement; you should grieve like Bible people grieve\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> \u2014which is like tear your clothes, pour ashes on you head, and cry for seven days\u2014that\u2019s what you do; that\u2019s biblical grief. You\u2019ve got the Psalms that are: \u201cWhere are You; why aren\u2019t You here?\u201d That\u2019s what faith does in those kind of circumstances. You don\u2019t have to just stoically shove it down and act like it doesn\u2019t hurt as much as it does. That\u2019s just a lie. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think this happens\u2014I know it happens in our circles; I don\u2019t know how widespread it is around in other churches and other communities\u2014when God is taking something precious, you can feel like, \u201cI feel guilty, because of how much it hurts.\u201d You feel that guilt; because \u201cIf I really loved God, I wouldn\u2019t grieve this way.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI just want to say, \u201cNo, no, no; if you really loved God, and you love His gifts\u2014and you\u2019re saying, \u2018Thank You,\u2019 for the gifts when they are there\u2014when they get taken, you\u2019re going to grieve.\u201d Think about Jesus at the tomb of Lazarus. He didn\u2019t go, because He loved them [John 11:5-6]; so He didn\u2019t go heal him. And when He shows up, and they\u2019re like, \u201cIf You\u2019d have been here\u2026\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cWhere were You?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> \u201cIf you\u2019d have been\u2026.\u201d Both of them come, and they say the same\u2014it\u2019s the same question\u2014\u201cIf You would have been here, my brother wouldn\u2019t have died [John 11:21,32].\u201d What do you think <em>they<\/em> had been talking about for four days? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> What had been the conversation in that room? It was just that question: \u201cIf He\u2019d have been here\u2026\u201d \u201cIf He\u2019d have been here\u2026\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen what does Jesus do? He\u2019s troubled in spirit, and He weeps. He weeps with them <em>five minutes before He brings Lazarus out<\/em>. He didn\u2019t just kind of stroll in there, with a smile on His face; \u201cI got this.\u201d He says, \u201cI know it hurts; death is <em>awful<\/em>. It\u2019s <em>awful<\/em>; I hate it. I\u2019m about to conquer it. I\u2019m the resurrection and the life [John 11:25].\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTo the person, who <em>feels<\/em> the loss right now, I want to say: \u201cGod does have purposes here. He\u2019s not distant from this. He\u2019s in this, and you\u2019re only going to find Him if you press into the pain; and go down and you meet Jesus, who is the \u201cman of sorrows and acquainted with grief [Isaiah 53:3].\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Would you say that\u2019s the same for the person <em>longing<\/em> for something that maybe will never happen, like a child? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> Yes, absolutely; I mean, there\u2019s different kinds of suffering; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tYou have the suffering of loss\u2014my dad died\u2014I had him, and I lost him. \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tThen you\u2019ve got the suffering of longing: \u201cI want to have a husband or a wife.\u201d A couple who wants to have children: \u201cI\u2019m longing for those things, and God\u2019s not giving what I want Him to give. It hurts as much as it\u2019s worth. \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><p>\n\t\t\t\tGo to Him with it and pray, and let Him be your ultimate comfort. He\u2019s \u201cthe God of all comfort [2 Corinthians 1:3].\u201d That\u2019s one of His <em>names<\/em> in the Bible. It\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> name; He\u2019s the God of <em>all<\/em> comfort. \u201cHe comforts us in our affliction so that we can comfort those in any affliction with the comfort that we have received from Christ \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[2 Corinthians 1:4].\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s interesting how you\u2019ve processed that, because it\u2019s so healthy. I think, often, we\u2019ve been taught, or we think, \u201cIf I lament about the loss of a relationship, or a thing, or a certain future,\u201d\u2014or like Ann said\u2014\u201cI lament that I\u2019m not going to be able to get what I hope for,\u201d\u2014a child, a marriage, whatever\u2014\u201cthat means I value that thing or that person too much, because I\u2019m lamenting it.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019re saying, \u201cNo, no, no, no; that\u2019s actually <em>healthy<\/em>. It\u2019s okay; it\u2019s actually the process to making sure Christ is supreme in your life.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. It\u2019s: \u201cBring the heartache to God; cast the burden on Him \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[1 Peter 5:7].\u201d That\u2019s what it tells us to do\u2014with that pain, and that suffering, and that loss and that longing\u2014is to bring it to God and lay it before His feet. God\u2019s not threatened by His gifts. He\u2019s not threatened by His gifts, which means He\u2019s not threatened when you really want them\u2014and it hurts because you lost them, or it hurts because you\u2019re not getting them\u2014He\u2019s not threatened by that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe danger comes\u2014you can commit idolatry\u2014you think about Job\u2019s wife. What was the problem? She experienced the same loss\u2014horrible loss: ten children <em>gone<\/em>; all the stuff <em>gone<\/em>\u2014and Job says, \u201cThe Lord gives; the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord [Job 1:21].\u201d He worships through tears; and she says, \u201cCurse God and die \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Job 2:9].\u201d You can sin in grief. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is a thing in the modern world, where people think pain and grief and loss is an excuse. It\u2019s not an excuse; but it\u2019s rightly channeling all of that pain and bringing it to Him, and saying, \u201cGod, this is too much for me; I need Your grace to be sufficient; I need Your grace to be sufficient in my weakness and my affliction now.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I would add: \u201cDon\u2019t lament alone.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Even the biblical examples, they\u2019re always with community. If the community rejects you, because you\u2019re lamenting; it\u2019s the wrong community. They should be wrapping their arms and saying, \u201cI feel your pain, dude; let me walk with you and point you back as long as it takes. But let\u2019s go on that journey together.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You\u2019ve talked about losing your dad. Did you guys have this common bond of baseball too? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> Yes, we did. You know, my dad died in 2013 after seven or eight years of Alzheimer\u2019s\/Parkinson\u2019s\u2014awful\u2014it\u2019s just a horrible way to die and to watch someone you love whither. As hard as it was on me, I know it was harder on my mom; she lost her best friend. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think I say this in the book: \u201cI miss him most on the baseball field. He\u2019s my coach.\u201d That was something that we bonded\u2014my brothers and I\/we all played baseball\u2014he coached us; that was like a bonding thing. Now, here I am, with kids of my own, and he\u2019s not present to be there. It is a thing that I feel the loss about March, April, May most, even though he died in November. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s so funny; because some people say, \u201cThat\u2019s shallow: baseball?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> It was the place where the relationship was forged and formed. So baseball was valuable, because my dad\u2019s valuable. Baseball\u2019s valuable to him, because I\u2019m valuable. He loved me; I loved him. This was one of the places, not the only, but one of the places where that happened. It\u2019s the same thing that\u2019s happened with me and my boys. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Will you be playing baseball in heaven with your dad?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> I have this thing\u2014I do talk about this in the book\u2014about how it\u2019s a mental imagination thing. I need to explain it carefully, because some people think it\u2019s kind of odd. There\u2019s a thing I don\u2019t get to have right now, which is Dad cheering while I\u2019m coaching and a son is playing. I think that would be a really sweet thing of earth\u2014that would be really bright\u2014it would be a happy thing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy father-in-law, my wife\u2019s dad, he does that; and it\u2019s so glorious. I\u2019m so glad that he steps in there to be present. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, you\u2019re whole book\u2019s about that; but I literally went back to a moment of her dad, who\u2019s the biggest Cleveland Browns fan in the world, sitting in Cleveland stadium. I\u2019m on the sideline with the Detroit Lions; we\u2019re playing a preseason game there, and my son\u2019s playing for the Lions; so there it is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> Yes, sweet!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It was like the sweetest moment ever\u2014who cares what happened in the game\u2014it was like this thing that we share. So you\u2019ve got that with baseball and a dad who\u2019s passed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. Then I go, \u201cIn heaven, I imagine my dad watching the game that my son\u2019s playing and I\u2019m coaching. I imagine the joy I don\u2019t get now <em>there<\/em>.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cYou don\u2019t know that\u2019s going to happen; you don\u2019t know that\u2019s going to be.\u201d You\u2019re right; I don\u2019t, but it\u2019s a deep <em>longing<\/em>. What the Bible does tell me is: \u201cEye has not seen; ear has not heard, nor has the mind of man conceived what God has prepared for those who love Him [1 Corinthians 2:9].\u201d I\u2019m just trying to give God a workout. [Laughter] I\u2019m saying, \u201cI think this would be a glorious moment. So Lord, it needs to be either that good or better; and I am happy with better.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe goodness and greatness of God\u2014whatever the new heavens and new earth is like\/whatever we\u2019re going to be doing\u2014is going to far surpass our greatest joys here and our greatest longings here. No one is going to be disappointed. Part of what I\u2019m doing there is to say, \u201cThis is a deep pain; and therefore, it\u2019s a deep longing. Therefore, I expect, Lord, You promised You are going to meet it either that way or probably better.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That image that you just described, which you end the book with, is so well- written; it is such a great picture of what matters. Because the things that we enjoy on this earth are the relationships that matter. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI would just say to the dad\u2014and I know there\u2019s a mom listening, too; or the husband or the wife\u2014\u201cDon\u2019t miss an opportunity <em>today<\/em> to pour into the relationships that matter most to you.\u201d I\u2019m an older dad; now, I am a grandfather. I can say, [snapping sound] \u201cLike that, they\u2019re out of your house.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI can say this to you, Joe. Your sons are sitting over there\u2014they\u2019re young boys, becoming men\u2014your window is closing. If I could go back and do it again, I would seize more moments. I would just say, \u201cMan, don\u2019t miss that moment. These relationships matter. Go after them hard, because God is smiling on those moments.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Joe:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> That was Dave and Ann Wilson, talking with Joe Rigney on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. If you\u2019d like a copy of Joe\u2019s book, <em>Strangely Bright<\/em>, you can grab it online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can give us a call at 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat if I told you that the foundation of your marriage isn\u2019t all on you to figure out? Well, FamilyLife\u2019s <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> is three days for you and your spouse to get away together to hear from great speakers and connect over God\u2019s Word. Whether you want to take a road trip, or stay close to home, there\u2019s a FamilyLife <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> getaway for you. And when you sign up this week, you\u2019ll get over 40 percent off the regular registration price. You can find out more on FamilyLifeToday.com; or again, you could give us a call at 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you know of anyone who could benefit from today\u2019s conversation, we\u2019d love it if you\u2019d share this podcast wherever you get your podcasts. While you\u2019re there, it would really help us out if you\u2019d rate and review us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHave you and your spouse ever had a fight about money? No?\u2014just me?\u2014right, yes. In any case, being on the same page about saving for retirement is pretty much <em>always<\/em> a good thing. CJ Cagle is going to be joining Dave and Ann Wilson to talk through how to make planning for retirement not an opportunity to fight. That\u2019s coming up tomorrow. We hope you can join us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. I\u2019ll see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2022 FamilyLife. 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