{"id":307419,"date":"2022-02-25T08:03:11","date_gmt":"2022-02-25T13:03:11","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/trading-hustle-for-happy\/"},"modified":"2022-02-25T08:03:11","modified_gmt":"2022-02-25T13:03:11","slug":"trading-hustle-for-happy","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/trading-hustle-for-happy\/","title":{"rendered":"Trading Hustle for Happy"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>The good life is not found in unfettered options or accomplished by our hustle and hurry. Podcaster Ashley Hales shows how the life we crave is found within the confines of God&#8217;s loving limits.<br \/>\nShow Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tFind resources from this podcast at shop.familylife.com.<br \/>\n \tFind more content and resources on the FamilyLife&#8217;s app!<br \/>\n \tHelp others find Familylife.\u00a0 Leave a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify.<br \/>\n \tCheck out all the Familylife&#8217;s on the FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>The good life is not found in unfettered options or accomplished by our hustle and hurry. Podcaster Ashley Hales shows how the life we crave is found within the confines of God&#8217;s loving limits.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2022-02-25.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:44","filesize":"25.39M","filesize_raw":"26620147","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822],"tags":[7042,2432],"podcast_series":[8507],"cwp_profile":[9758],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307419","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","tag-everyday-life","tag-the-good-life","podcast_series-a-spacious-life","cwp_profile-ashley-hales","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307419\/trading-hustle-for-happy","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307419\/trading-hustle-for-happy","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"ckLOf4lXUx\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/trading-hustle-for-happy\/\">Trading Hustle for Happy<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/trading-hustle-for-happy\/embed\/#?secret=ckLOf4lXUx\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Trading Hustle for Happy&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"ckLOf4lXUx\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2022-02-25.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2022-02-25.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think every marriage has a gap.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014gap.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, the gap between what we <em>expect<\/em> and what we get.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right; right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I thought you would be having your Bible out all the time, and we\u2019d be talking about God\u2019s Word.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014which I did.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> For a while. [Laughter] Then, in replacement of that, it was this remote control and ESPN.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Okay; I thought we\u2019d have kids that would be obedient and <em>sleep<\/em> through the night.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, man! That didn\u2019t happen. I was like, \u201cWhat happened? They are <em>defiant<\/em>.\u201d They are <em>not<\/em> what we <em>expected<\/em>!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and honestly, we could do this for\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014all day.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014the <em>whole<\/em> program,\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014every couple.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014because there are so many expectations\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You could do that with work.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014that don\u2019t match up with reality.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So the question is: \u201cWhat do you do\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cwith the gap?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cwith the gap when life doesn\u2019t match your expectations?\u201d\n\nWe don\u2019t know what to do. [Laughter] So we asked Ashley Hales to come back in and tell us; because she\u2019s <em>lived<\/em> this life and wrote a book about it. Welcome back to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Thank you; it\u2019s so fun to be here.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, you are over there, laughing every time we start something.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> I <em>know<\/em>. It\u2019s just your stories just hit very close to home; I get it. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, probably because you are a pastor\u2019s wife. You have your doctorate, and you have four kids.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014which means you\u2019re so much smarter than we are.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I know! It\u2019s like she\u2019s going to solve our problems. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And in English of all things. Let me ask you this, though, before we get into it\u2014because I know you are a mom; you\u2019ve got four kids; your husband is a church planter\u2014we did the church-planting thing, so we know a little bit of your life.\n\nIn the book, <em>A Spacious Life: Trading Hustle and Hurry for the Goodness of Limits<\/em>\u2014but here is what I know about you a little bit; I did a little research\u2014I\u2019m supposed to ask you this: \u201cHow do you do your laundry?\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Ha! I love it!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cWhat\u2019s your laundry routine?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes; so I always ask my guests on the <em>Finding Holy<\/em> podcast what <em>their<\/em> laundry routine is.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, I saw that; and I am like, \u201cWhat is that about?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Why do I ask that question?\u2014or what is my laundry routine?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> No, why do <em>you<\/em> ask it?\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> I love asking people about their laundry routines because I\u2019m convinced we meet God in our everydayness, too\u2014not just the retreats, or the vacation, or the business trip\u2014but that we actually meet Him in our chores.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, as you heard us talk about the gap, what\u2019s your gap? What do you remember? What do you even experience now in the gap between what you thought and what reality is?\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes; you know, I would say there was definitely the gap of expectation after graduate school. We thought we would change the world, that we would be kind of headed towards this really significant gospel ministry. Yet, we found ourselves, at various times\u2014jobless, or interning, or moving to a place we didn\u2019t expect\u2014so all of those kind of moves and different chapters of our lives just felt like gaps, like, \u201cWhen is life really going to <em>start<\/em>?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And we are disappointed in the gap.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Exactly; we are. I think it is okay to be disappointed if we are going to bring that disappointment to Jesus; right?\u2014if we are going to press in and say: \u201cYou are still better,\u201d and \u201cYou are still life,\u201d and \u201cI\u2019m still going to practice these kind of household tasks of faith,\u201d\u2014or if we are just going to say, \u201cEh, You haven\u2019t given me what I want, God\u201d; I\u2019m really treating [Him] like a genie.\n\nSome of those gaps, I think, really evidence, in those desert spaces, \u201cAre we going to press in? Are we actually going to choose to find Jesus as our oasis, or are we just going to throw up our hands and expect Him to <em>serve<\/em> us?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cWhat do we do in the <em>wait<\/em>?\u201d I know you wrote about the waiting period\u2014like the waiting room, I guess\u2014it\u2019s like we are good for a while: \u201cOkay, my reality is not matching up with my expectation; and here we are.\u201d Life sort of feels like that; it\u2019s never\/it\u2019s rarely immediate. \u201cHow do we deal with the <em>wait<\/em>?\u201d\u2014because it is a <em>long<\/em> wait sometimes.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> It\u2019s a good question to continually ask ourselves: \u201cAre we serving and loving Jesus for what He will <em>do<\/em> for us?\u201d, or \u201c\u2026what He might give us?\u201d or \u201c\u2026what we might feel?\u201d or \u201cAre we serving and loving Jesus for Him alone?\u201d\n\nWhen I talk about the spiritual life is not an Instant Pot<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, I think\u2014I don\u2019t have one because I would probably think it was awesome and then not use it\u2014it would just <em>sit<\/em>. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I\u2019ve done; that\u2019s <em>exactly<\/em> what I\u2019ve done.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> But the idea about the Instant Pot is you can put everything in; and then, all of a sudden, something that should take five hours takes forty-five minutes. I think we think our spiritual life is a little bit\/should be like an Instant Pot, like all of a sudden,\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Ding!\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> \u2014I should put it in; and it should all come out like Rosey on <em>The Jetsons<\/em>. Instead, it\u2019s slow; and it\u2019s circular; and it meanders. We\u2019re like, \u201cGod, why are You taking so long? I don\u2019t understand,\u201d or \u201cWhy am I still struggling with this sin?\u201d or \u201cHow come You feel so far away?\u201d We can\u2019t conjure up <em>change<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Do you think, culturally speaking, that\u2019s happening <em>more<\/em>?\u2014\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> I think so.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014because we do have instant gratification.\n\n<strong>Ashley: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019ve stood in front my microwave, going, \u201cHurry up!\u201d\u2014a microwave!\u2014I mean, we used to cook.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I mean\u2014we used to <em>wait<\/em> for things\u2014and <em>now<\/em>, we don\u2019t wait for things. I think of our kids, who so often now want to be influencers; because we have instant fame. We can do that through our posts on YouTube that suddenly went viral.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right; we don\u2019t realize to the extent that all of these things\u2014of course, they make life convenient and easy\u2014but how much they form us, spiritually, as well; because then we get used to that speed of asking Siri<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> a question when we don\u2019t know\u2014[Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes!\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> \u2014or using our microwaves\u2014those form us too.\n\nSo when we have to wait on God, we ultimately are out of control. That makes us feel nervous, and scared, and worried. So a lot of us choose to punt on Jesus and His church instead of travelling <em>through<\/em> that hard space with God.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So Ashley, how do <em>you<\/em> do it as a mom of four? How are you raising kids?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And you just moved <em>again<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes, we did.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>So how are you teaching this to your kids? And how do you not give up on Jesus when it\u2019s been so long or, maybe, you\u2019ve prayed the same prayer for so long?\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> I think I\u2019m just learning, continually, that the point of life is not some yellow brick road to some beautiful place and experience; but the point of life is Jesus Himself. So in those days\u2014if we are not where we want to be financially; or we are dealing with parenting struggles; or the job situation isn\u2019t what we expected it to be; whatever it is\u2014given we\u2019ve all had those desert years, where we have learned to press into Jesus, that that is the point: so really, He gets to tell me what my life is about; and I don\u2019t get to be the one to fashion it and curate it.\n\nThat looks like\u2014for parenting\u2014a lot of that looks like we are trying to practice Sabbath as a family discipline, even though it is a work day for my husband when he is preaching. We do stuff like we watch a family show together; we go on a hike; or we choose to eat dessert first, because I love how the Hebrew children were woken up with honey on their tongues so they would know that the Lord\u2019s Day is sweet. We want our kids\u2014especially as pastor\u2019s kids\u2014to not resent the church; and that this was actually something beautiful. It was a moment where time kind of stopped, and we could savor the good gifts that God has given to us. We practice waiting instead of like returning the email, and keep working harder and harder on a Sunday. Those are some things we hope will shape our family life.\n\nFor me, personally, a lot of it looks just like rhythms of prayer throughout the day; because I still don\u2019t have loads of time to spend\u2014but to say, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m going to pause a few times a day and pray,\u201d or \u201c\u2026read the Psalms,\u201d\u2014to reorient my vision on what is actually the point\u2014instead of: \u201cOkay, if I can actually check everything off my to-do list, then I\u2019ve had a successful day.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> How have you found, because you were saying earlier\u2014I\u2019m going to say it different than you said it, but I think this is what you were saying\u2014\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014like: \u201cJesus is enough.\u201d We agree; and I think a lot of the listeners would say, \u201cOh, yes; that is theological true. He is all we need.\u201d\n\nBut I\u2019ve often felt, and even heard from other men: \u201cJesus is enough, but I don\u2019t know Him well enough for Him to be enough.\u201d It\u2019s like: \u201cWhy do I keep going to these other things\u2014success\/whatever\u2014even my marriage if Jesus is enough? I don\u2019t really know Him intimately in such a way that He is all I need.\u201d\n\nTalk about that; because as I\u2019m listening to you, I\u2019m like, \u201cMan, you\u2019ve sensed a depth of relationship with Christ that satisfies and fulfills you. <em>How<\/em> does that happen?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> You know, I don\u2019t think it happens with just us by ourselves either. I think it really happens in our local churches with people. We are the hands and feet of the church of Christ, and I love the idea that God calls His people salt. I was watching this Netflix<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> documentary by Samin Nosrat, <em>Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat<\/em>\u2014she goes, and she travels around; she eats amazing tacos and soy sauce\u2014she has a whole episode on salt. She talks about how salt makes food taste how it <em>should<\/em> taste.\n\nI <em>love<\/em> that, because that\u2019s one of Jesus\u2019s words He used to talk about the church\u2014like we can help make the world taste like it should taste\u2014I think that is just such a <em>beautiful<\/em> mission. You need lots of salt to make a difference\u2014like one little salt crystal by itself isn\u2019t going to do anything\u2014and you can\u2019t have too much salt; you\u2019re just going to overpower your dish. I just think that is such a beautiful image for us to remember, like we <em>do<\/em> need each other.\n\nAs much as we can experience, individually, the presence of Christ and the Holy Spirit working in our lives\u2014it\u2019s like, as we gather for worship, as we\u2019re encouraging one another, as we are eating around tables together\u2014that actually, we begin to hear, \u201cOh, what is God doing in your life?\u201d \u201cThat is amazing.\u201d You know, and you are reaching out to this person: \u201cCan you bring me with you?\u2014because that feels scary to me.\u201d We actually <em>are<\/em> the hands and feet of Christ, not only to a watching world, but also to each other.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, that is an interesting answer.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Because I\/you sort of expect that question is going to be answered with: \u201cWell, you get alone; solitude with God,\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014which, obviously,\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014we should.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014is a discipline and a practice. But there are some of us, who are wired like the way you answered that: \u201cOh, that\u2019s how <em>I<\/em> often hear God\/see God is in community.\u201d\n\nCOVID has really hurt that\u2014\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> It has.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014because we\u2019ve been <em>pulled<\/em> away from it. We\u2019re watching church, even on a screen;\u2014\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014we\u2019re not <em>sitting<\/em> in a room with people.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You can <em>feel<\/em> God made us for community, but what we often don\u2019t understand is we experience <em>God<\/em> in community. Now, I\u2019m not saying solitude is a bad thing\u2014it\u2019s a <em>beautiful<\/em> thing; it\u2019s <em>awesome<\/em>; [for] some people, that is <em>really<\/em> powerful\u2014but others are wired this way; it\u2019s like, \u201cWow; I can experience Jesus is enough in the people of God, who are discovering that as well.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, just two nights ago, I was with probably 120 women, where God\u2019s Word was spoken. We worshipped together; we prayed together. And then we prayed over each other. We told our stories\u2014just a few women told their stories\u2014women were crying so hard, because there is something about: \u201cOh, I\u2019m not alone. I\u2019m not the only one who feels like this. I\u2019m not the only one <em>struggling<\/em>. There is hope in Jesus and the gospel, and He is enough; but I also need my sisters who are locking arms with me.\u201d\n\nI love that that is necessary, because I can\u2019t do it alone. When I\u2019m in my own thoughts, I can go to places where I\u2019m just feeling so sorry for myself; or I\u2019m belittling myself, and I\u2019m in shame; but there is something\u2014when you\u2019re with Jesus and a friend, where they both lift up your head if you center on Christ.\n\nI thought it was interesting, too; because as I was thinking about this\u2014you talked about how we go into this cycle of production and escape\u2014I was reading this, and I was so convicted. [Laughter] I thought, \u201cThis is exactly what we do.\u201d We\u2019re overscheduled and over-worked, and then we collapse in exhaustion.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014and we want chocolate.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and a Netflix movie.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes; for sure.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I feel like that\u2019s what most of us do. We have this crazy schedule, and then we\u2019re just going to fall apart.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Are you saying that\u2019s not healthy? [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> I\u2019m not saying you have to give up Netflix. [Laughter] But I am saying: \u201cWhere do we actually go [for] comfort?\u201d and \u201cWhere do we go to rest?\u201d\n\nI think what is so beautiful about the Hebrew Scriptures is that the day actually starts in the night; right? We start numbering the hours in the middle of the night. What that means then is we don\u2019t start into like the production of the day and then rest, which is what we tend to do\u2014or not even rest probably\u2014we\u2019re just falling into exhaustion.\n\nBut if, actually, rest is the first word\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And that\u2019s like the Sabbath;\u2014\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Exactly.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014it <em>starts<\/em> in the evening.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes; if rest\u2014when we\u2019re vulnerable, and it\u2019s dark, and we can\u2019t control things\u2014is how the world starts and how grace starts, how revolutionary would that be for us to feel like, \u201cI\u2019m going to rest first, because I know God is in control,\u201d and \u201cI don\u2019t hold the world up; I don\u2019t need to keep it spinning\u201d? Then my work can be a <em>response<\/em> to that rest that Jesus has given to me.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> In a sense, when I hear that, I think our most natural response is: \u201cI don\u2019t have time to rest.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And young moms are like, \u201cWho has time for that?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right; right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Part of that\u2014at least, from a non-mom guy, me\u2014[Laughter]\u2014not thinking about the kids even part\u2014I\u2019m thinking, \u201cI don\u2019t have time to rest, because I need to <em>work<\/em> to provide.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right; right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What I\u2019m really saying is: \u201cI can\u2019t trust God enough to take a day,\u2014\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cor take an hour, or an evening and say: \u2018I don\u2019t have to make a phone call.\u2019 \u2018I don\u2019t have to work,\u2019 \u2018I don\u2019t have to make money right now. I\u2019m going to trust God and obey.\u2019\u201d\n\nWe know this\u2014one of the Ten Commandments!\u2014that\u2019s how <em>big<\/em> it was to God: rest. I think He\u2019s saying what you did: \u201cProductive work comes out of rest,\u201d\u2014not rest should be <em>after<\/em> work\u2014it is: \u201cRest sets you up to work in a productive way, and He\u2019ll take care of the rest\u201d; right?\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> I think that is <em>exactly<\/em> right, that we can easily confuse the order. When we confuse the order, we set ourselves up to be little gods instead of <em>under<\/em> God\u2019s authority.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019ll just add this for one last thought\u2014and this is the pastor in me coming out, probably; and your husband would say the same thing\u2014is we do the same thing with money.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s like: \u201cI can\u2019t <em>give<\/em> to God until I know all the bills are paid; and whatever is left over, maybe, I\u2019ll give Him a little bit,\u201d\u2014rather than\u2014\u201cYou know what? I\u2019m going to give a tithe,\u201d\u2014what?!\u2014\u201cten percent at the <em>beginning<\/em> and trust that God will make it work. He <em>does<\/em>; because we\u2019ve done that; but it\u2019s <em>hard<\/em> because it comes back to: \u201cIs Jesus enough?\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014what we talked about earlier.\n\nWell, you know, it\u2019s interesting. All through your book, every chapter is an invitation, too; because limits in your life can be restricting <em>or<\/em> an invitation.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes, yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> One of them we haven\u2019t talked about\u2014that I think we have time to talk about\u2014an invitation to <em>delight<\/em>. What is that all about?\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> What is so great, as we consider a spacious life, is that it\u2019s really helping us remember, in our bodies and our bones: \u201cWhat does it look like to be a child of God?\u201d As self-made individuals, it can be really <em>hard<\/em> to return to that kind of sense of childlike faith.\n\nWhat is so beautiful about delight and play is that is something that children do. If we are children of God, that means we have the invitation to practice things like delight and play\u2014instead of saying, basically: \u201cOur <em>real<\/em> identity is like working machines\u201d; you know? Thinking of ourselves like our iPhones<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>; that we plug in every night to recharge so we can keep working\u2014but really, it\u2019s [confident] children, who can risk, and play, and delight.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It is interesting. I don\u2019t know exactly if I am getting the stat right\u2014but the average child laughs\u2014do you know?\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s over 100 times a day.\n\n<strong>Ashley: <\/strong>Okay.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>The average adult laughs less than 15\u2014\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Oh, wow!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014a day. It\u2019s interesting; you often hear adults, saying, \u201cHey, grow up!\u201d\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Guess what happens when you grow up? You lose delight; you tend to become more serious. I mean, obviously, there are some benefits to that.\n\nBut I think there is something that would help almost every marriage. This woman\/my wife brings it into our marriage\u2014play. Just <em>play<\/em> is something that brings <em>life<\/em> back to a marriage when you say, \u201cYou know what? We\u2019re just going to <em>play<\/em>,\u201d\u2014whatever that looks like. Just <em>enjoy<\/em> one another in a moment of laughter; it changes a marriage.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Totally. I think, when you bring joy into your home and laughter\u2014and I am going to say, too\u2014\u201cThere are certain times that I don\u2019t feel like, \u2018Hey, let\u2019s play.\u2019\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes; right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I can remember thinking, \u201cDo you know how much I have to do?\u201d because that\u2019s\/we <em>all<\/em> have so much to do.\n\nI think it\u2019s a choice. We have to be intentional of creating moments and memories, where we are just going to relax: we\u2019re going to play; we\u2019re going to laugh; we\u2019re going to play games.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What\u2019s that one time\u2014I\u2019m trying to remember if I am getting this right, where you said you were doing the dishes\u2014and Cody or somebody\/one of the boys wanted you to come out and see the sunset?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> No, they wanted me to come out and <em>play<\/em> with them. Dave was out of town; and I\u2019m doing the dishes, thinking, \u201cI just want them to get in the house, get their baths, and get in bed so that I can rest and recharge to get all my work done,\u201d\u2014it\u2019s the cell phone!\n\n<strong>Ashley: <\/strong>Right; yes!\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>When he came\u2014\u201cPlease, Mom! Please come out. We\u2019re playing capture the flag,\u201d\u2014I remember saying, \u201cGuys, you know, I\u2019ve got so much to do.\u201d\n\nThey left; and I remember thinking, \u201cHow many more times will they come and <em>ask<\/em> me to play with them?\u201d I put the towel down\u2014I did not want to; I just wanted you to know\u2014sometimes, I have to <em>choose<\/em> it. I went out there. We laughed so hard\u2014I fell down; my shoe came off\u2014we won the game. They thought it was <em>amazing<\/em>; it was this great memory.\n\nI thought, \u201cMan, that is what our life is about. We have to <em>choose<\/em> to walk with Jesus at times. We have to <em>choose<\/em> to engage and create joy and laughter in our homes.\u201d That creates this setting of this <em>spacious<\/em> life.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes; yes, I love that.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I was going to say it is your metaphor of the spacious life\u2014really, from Scripture\/the Psalms\u2014the spacious life. That son, coming in, was an invitation. Often, we don\u2019t realize God is in that invitation\u2014that was the son, running in the kitchen\u2014you don\u2019t realize He invited you.\n\nGuess what? Every invitation is a \u201cYes,\u201d or a \u201cNo.\u201d If you say, \u201cNo,\u201d sometimes, you miss the spacious life. Then there are sometimes you have to say, \u201cNo\u201d; but often, if we say, \u201cYou know what? I don\u2019t realize what I\u2019m saying, \u2018Yes,\u2019 to right now; but this is the life God has called us to live.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right; right. \u201cSo are you going to live in your <em>given<\/em> life?\u201d or \u201cAre you going to pine for what you haven\u2019t had?\u201d Are you going to say, \u201cOh, that good life is way off in the future\u201d?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; so I would just say, as we close: \u201cOpen your eyes today. Open your ears today. Look for the invitation.\u201d I think I can say, \u201cThere is going to be one today\u2014maybe, several\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Every day, God is calling us and inviting us.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cfrom God to the spacious life.\u201d You can say, \u201cYes.\u201d I\u2019m telling you: it is worth taking that; a \u201cYes,\u201d has consequences that are good.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I had to think, listening to Dave and Ann Wilson and their conversation with Ashley Hales, about the Apostle Paul, who spent a lot of time in prison\u2014you talk about the opposite of a spacious life\u2014being in the Mamertine Prison in Rome was completely different; and yet, he said, in Philippians, Chapter 4, \u201cI\u2019ve learned the secret of being content.\u201d He had found the spacious life, even in a prison cell.\n\nAshley\u2019s book, <em>A Spacious Life<\/em>, is all about how we can find God\u2019s goodness in the midst of whatever circumstance we\u2019re in. It\u2019s a book we\u2019ve got copies of in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go online to order, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the book is called <em>A Spacious Life<\/em>. Our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Order the book from us online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call to order at 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nNow, we talked about this already this week; but I wanted to make sure you are all aware. Next week, as you listen to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, things will sound a little different at the end of the program. That is because my friend, Shelby Abbott, is going to be stepping in to take over the responsibilities of being here each day and wrapping up the program.\n\nShelby is here with us today, and I\u2019m excited Shelby about this new role you are stepping into and the assignment that God has for you here.\n\n<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> Yes, I\u2019m excited too. I don\u2019t have too much experience with radio; but I have been doing stage emceeing for over 20 years, and I am excited to see how God is going to translate that into this.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You have started a new podcast; tell our listeners about that.\n\n<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> It is a podcast called <em>Real Life Loading<\/em> for 18- to 28-year-olds. It\u2019s coming out very, very soon from FamilyLife.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019re an author; tell our listeners about the books you have written.\n\n<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> I\u2019ve written a couple books for the campus ministry of Cru<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u2014a dating book and a devotional on evangelism\u2014but the latest two books that I have written: one was about doubt\u2014the subject of doubt\u2014seeing so many of these de-construction stories handled poorly amongst many, many Christians. I wanted to write about that. Then I also wrote about cohabitation versus marriage <em>for<\/em> FamilyLife.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes, and how long have you been married?\n\n<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been married for 15 years, and my wife is on staff with the campus ministry of Cru. She\u2019s a graphic designer.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Children?\n\n<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> Yes, we have two daughters: a ten-year-old about entering into sixth grade\u2014God, help me\u2014a second grader\/an eight-year-old. They are delightful.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019m excited that our listeners are going to get an opportunity to get to know you in the weeks ahead and am glad to have you stepping into this assignment.\n\n<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> Yes, me too. And we hope that our listeners have a great weekend. Hope that you are able to worship at your local church\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wait; wait; wait; wait; wait. I really ought to\u2014I mean, I don\u2019t want to step on your toes\u2014but I should do this one last time.\n\n<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> Sure; it\u2019s your last one. Go ahead; take it. [Laughter] Roll with it.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We do hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together in your local church this weekend, and I hope you can join us back on Monday. David and Meg Robbins are going to be here to talk about the steps necessary to get ready for the big day\u2014the day you say, \u201cI do,\u201d\u2014what does it look like to really prepare for marriage? That comes up Monday. I hope you can be with us for that.\n\nOn behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back Monday for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.\n\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2022 FamilyLife. 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});\";s:18:\"current_block_list\";a:17:{i:0;s:14:\"uagb\/container\";i:1;s:12:\"core\/heading\";i:2;s:9:\"core\/html\";i:3;s:10:\"core\/group\";i:6;s:21:\"uagb\/advanced-heading\";i:7;s:14:\"uagb\/separator\";i:8;s:14:\"uagb\/icon-list\";i:9;s:20:\"uagb\/icon-list-child\";i:10;s:11:\"core\/search\";i:13;s:18:\"core\/legacy-widget\";i:16;s:10:\"uagb\/image\";i:17;s:17:\"core\/social-links\";i:18;s:16:\"core\/social-link\";i:19;s:14:\"core\/paragraph\";i:20;s:30:\"meta-box\/fl-conditional-blocks\";i:21;s:12:\"uagb\/buttons\";i:22;s:18:\"uagb\/buttons-child\";}s:8:\"uag_flag\";b:1;s:11:\"uag_version\";i:1776362607;s:6:\"gfonts\";a:1:{s:7:\"Default\";a:2:{s:10:\"fontfamily\";s:7:\"Default\";s:12:\"fontvariants\";a:0:{}}}s:10:\"gfonts_url\";s:71:\"\/\/fonts.googleapis.com\/css?family=Default&subset=latin&display=fallback\";s:12:\"gfonts_files\";a:0:{}s:14:\"uag_faq_layout\";b:0;}"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"The good life is not found in unfettered options or accomplished by our hustle and hurry. Podcaster Ashley Hales shows how the life we crave is found within the confines of God's loving limits.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2022-02-25.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think every marriage has a gap.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014gap.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, the gap between what we <em>expect<\/em> and what we get.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right; right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I thought you would be having your Bible out all the time, and we\u2019d be talking about God\u2019s Word.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014which I did.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> For a while. [Laughter] Then, in replacement of that, it was this remote control and ESPN.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Okay; I thought we\u2019d have kids that would be obedient and <em>sleep<\/em> through the night.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, man! That didn\u2019t happen. I was like, \u201cWhat happened? They are <em>defiant<\/em>.\u201d They are <em>not<\/em> what we <em>expected<\/em>!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and honestly, we could do this for\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014all day.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014the <em>whole<\/em> program,\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014every couple.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014because there are so many expectations\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You could do that with work.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014that don\u2019t match up with reality.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So the question is: \u201cWhat do you do\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cwith the gap?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cwith the gap when life doesn\u2019t match your expectations?\u201d\n\nWe don\u2019t know what to do. [Laughter] So we asked Ashley Hales to come back in and tell us; because she\u2019s <em>lived<\/em> this life and wrote a book about it. Welcome back to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Thank you; it\u2019s so fun to be here.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, you are over there, laughing every time we start something.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> I <em>know<\/em>. It\u2019s just your stories just hit very close to home; I get it. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, probably because you are a pastor\u2019s wife. You have your doctorate, and you have four kids.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014which means you\u2019re so much smarter than we are.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I know! It\u2019s like she\u2019s going to solve our problems. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And in English of all things. Let me ask you this, though, before we get into it\u2014because I know you are a mom; you\u2019ve got four kids; your husband is a church planter\u2014we did the church-planting thing, so we know a little bit of your life.\n\nIn the book, <em>A Spacious Life: Trading Hustle and Hurry for the Goodness of Limits<\/em>\u2014but here is what I know about you a little bit; I did a little research\u2014I\u2019m supposed to ask you this: \u201cHow do you do your laundry?\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Ha! I love it!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cWhat\u2019s your laundry routine?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes; so I always ask my guests on the <em>Finding Holy<\/em> podcast what <em>their<\/em> laundry routine is.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, I saw that; and I am like, \u201cWhat is that about?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Why do I ask that question?\u2014or what is my laundry routine?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> No, why do <em>you<\/em> ask it?\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> I love asking people about their laundry routines because I\u2019m convinced we meet God in our everydayness, too\u2014not just the retreats, or the vacation, or the business trip\u2014but that we actually meet Him in our chores.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, as you heard us talk about the gap, what\u2019s your gap? What do you remember? What do you even experience now in the gap between what you thought and what reality is?\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes; you know, I would say there was definitely the gap of expectation after graduate school. We thought we would change the world, that we would be kind of headed towards this really significant gospel ministry. Yet, we found ourselves, at various times\u2014jobless, or interning, or moving to a place we didn\u2019t expect\u2014so all of those kind of moves and different chapters of our lives just felt like gaps, like, \u201cWhen is life really going to <em>start<\/em>?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And we are disappointed in the gap.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Exactly; we are. I think it is okay to be disappointed if we are going to bring that disappointment to Jesus; right?\u2014if we are going to press in and say: \u201cYou are still better,\u201d and \u201cYou are still life,\u201d and \u201cI\u2019m still going to practice these kind of household tasks of faith,\u201d\u2014or if we are just going to say, \u201cEh, You haven\u2019t given me what I want, God\u201d; I\u2019m really treating [Him] like a genie.\n\nSome of those gaps, I think, really evidence, in those desert spaces, \u201cAre we going to press in? Are we actually going to choose to find Jesus as our oasis, or are we just going to throw up our hands and expect Him to <em>serve<\/em> us?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cWhat do we do in the <em>wait<\/em>?\u201d I know you wrote about the waiting period\u2014like the waiting room, I guess\u2014it\u2019s like we are good for a while: \u201cOkay, my reality is not matching up with my expectation; and here we are.\u201d Life sort of feels like that; it\u2019s never\/it\u2019s rarely immediate. \u201cHow do we deal with the <em>wait<\/em>?\u201d\u2014because it is a <em>long<\/em> wait sometimes.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> It\u2019s a good question to continually ask ourselves: \u201cAre we serving and loving Jesus for what He will <em>do<\/em> for us?\u201d, or \u201c\u2026what He might give us?\u201d or \u201c\u2026what we might feel?\u201d or \u201cAre we serving and loving Jesus for Him alone?\u201d\n\nWhen I talk about the spiritual life is not an Instant Pot<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, I think\u2014I don\u2019t have one because I would probably think it was awesome and then not use it\u2014it would just <em>sit<\/em>. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I\u2019ve done; that\u2019s <em>exactly<\/em> what I\u2019ve done.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> But the idea about the Instant Pot is you can put everything in; and then, all of a sudden, something that should take five hours takes forty-five minutes. I think we think our spiritual life is a little bit\/should be like an Instant Pot, like all of a sudden,\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Ding!\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> \u2014I should put it in; and it should all come out like Rosey on <em>The Jetsons<\/em>. Instead, it\u2019s slow; and it\u2019s circular; and it meanders. We\u2019re like, \u201cGod, why are You taking so long? I don\u2019t understand,\u201d or \u201cWhy am I still struggling with this sin?\u201d or \u201cHow come You feel so far away?\u201d We can\u2019t conjure up <em>change<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Do you think, culturally speaking, that\u2019s happening <em>more<\/em>?\u2014\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> I think so.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014because we do have instant gratification.\n\n<strong>Ashley: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019ve stood in front my microwave, going, \u201cHurry up!\u201d\u2014a microwave!\u2014I mean, we used to cook.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I mean\u2014we used to <em>wait<\/em> for things\u2014and <em>now<\/em>, we don\u2019t wait for things. I think of our kids, who so often now want to be influencers; because we have instant fame. We can do that through our posts on YouTube that suddenly went viral.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right; we don\u2019t realize to the extent that all of these things\u2014of course, they make life convenient and easy\u2014but how much they form us, spiritually, as well; because then we get used to that speed of asking Siri<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> a question when we don\u2019t know\u2014[Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes!\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> \u2014or using our microwaves\u2014those form us too.\n\nSo when we have to wait on God, we ultimately are out of control. That makes us feel nervous, and scared, and worried. So a lot of us choose to punt on Jesus and His church instead of travelling <em>through<\/em> that hard space with God.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So Ashley, how do <em>you<\/em> do it as a mom of four? How are you raising kids?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And you just moved <em>again<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes, we did.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>So how are you teaching this to your kids? And how do you not give up on Jesus when it\u2019s been so long or, maybe, you\u2019ve prayed the same prayer for so long?\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> I think I\u2019m just learning, continually, that the point of life is not some yellow brick road to some beautiful place and experience; but the point of life is Jesus Himself. So in those days\u2014if we are not where we want to be financially; or we are dealing with parenting struggles; or the job situation isn\u2019t what we expected it to be; whatever it is\u2014given we\u2019ve all had those desert years, where we have learned to press into Jesus, that that is the point: so really, He gets to tell me what my life is about; and I don\u2019t get to be the one to fashion it and curate it.\n\nThat looks like\u2014for parenting\u2014a lot of that looks like we are trying to practice Sabbath as a family discipline, even though it is a work day for my husband when he is preaching. We do stuff like we watch a family show together; we go on a hike; or we choose to eat dessert first, because I love how the Hebrew children were woken up with honey on their tongues so they would know that the Lord\u2019s Day is sweet. We want our kids\u2014especially as pastor\u2019s kids\u2014to not resent the church; and that this was actually something beautiful. It was a moment where time kind of stopped, and we could savor the good gifts that God has given to us. We practice waiting instead of like returning the email, and keep working harder and harder on a Sunday. Those are some things we hope will shape our family life.\n\nFor me, personally, a lot of it looks just like rhythms of prayer throughout the day; because I still don\u2019t have loads of time to spend\u2014but to say, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m going to pause a few times a day and pray,\u201d or \u201c\u2026read the Psalms,\u201d\u2014to reorient my vision on what is actually the point\u2014instead of: \u201cOkay, if I can actually check everything off my to-do list, then I\u2019ve had a successful day.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> How have you found, because you were saying earlier\u2014I\u2019m going to say it different than you said it, but I think this is what you were saying\u2014\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014like: \u201cJesus is enough.\u201d We agree; and I think a lot of the listeners would say, \u201cOh, yes; that is theological true. He is all we need.\u201d\n\nBut I\u2019ve often felt, and even heard from other men: \u201cJesus is enough, but I don\u2019t know Him well enough for Him to be enough.\u201d It\u2019s like: \u201cWhy do I keep going to these other things\u2014success\/whatever\u2014even my marriage if Jesus is enough? I don\u2019t really know Him intimately in such a way that He is all I need.\u201d\n\nTalk about that; because as I\u2019m listening to you, I\u2019m like, \u201cMan, you\u2019ve sensed a depth of relationship with Christ that satisfies and fulfills you. <em>How<\/em> does that happen?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> You know, I don\u2019t think it happens with just us by ourselves either. I think it really happens in our local churches with people. We are the hands and feet of the church of Christ, and I love the idea that God calls His people salt. I was watching this Netflix<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> documentary by Samin Nosrat, <em>Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat<\/em>\u2014she goes, and she travels around; she eats amazing tacos and soy sauce\u2014she has a whole episode on salt. She talks about how salt makes food taste how it <em>should<\/em> taste.\n\nI <em>love<\/em> that, because that\u2019s one of Jesus\u2019s words He used to talk about the church\u2014like we can help make the world taste like it should taste\u2014I think that is just such a <em>beautiful<\/em> mission. You need lots of salt to make a difference\u2014like one little salt crystal by itself isn\u2019t going to do anything\u2014and you can\u2019t have too much salt; you\u2019re just going to overpower your dish. I just think that is such a beautiful image for us to remember, like we <em>do<\/em> need each other.\n\nAs much as we can experience, individually, the presence of Christ and the Holy Spirit working in our lives\u2014it\u2019s like, as we gather for worship, as we\u2019re encouraging one another, as we are eating around tables together\u2014that actually, we begin to hear, \u201cOh, what is God doing in your life?\u201d \u201cThat is amazing.\u201d You know, and you are reaching out to this person: \u201cCan you bring me with you?\u2014because that feels scary to me.\u201d We actually <em>are<\/em> the hands and feet of Christ, not only to a watching world, but also to each other.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, that is an interesting answer.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Because I\/you sort of expect that question is going to be answered with: \u201cWell, you get alone; solitude with God,\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014which, obviously,\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014we should.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014is a discipline and a practice. But there are some of us, who are wired like the way you answered that: \u201cOh, that\u2019s how <em>I<\/em> often hear God\/see God is in community.\u201d\n\nCOVID has really hurt that\u2014\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> It has.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014because we\u2019ve been <em>pulled<\/em> away from it. We\u2019re watching church, even on a screen;\u2014\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014we\u2019re not <em>sitting<\/em> in a room with people.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You can <em>feel<\/em> God made us for community, but what we often don\u2019t understand is we experience <em>God<\/em> in community. Now, I\u2019m not saying solitude is a bad thing\u2014it\u2019s a <em>beautiful<\/em> thing; it\u2019s <em>awesome<\/em>; [for] some people, that is <em>really<\/em> powerful\u2014but others are wired this way; it\u2019s like, \u201cWow; I can experience Jesus is enough in the people of God, who are discovering that as well.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, just two nights ago, I was with probably 120 women, where God\u2019s Word was spoken. We worshipped together; we prayed together. And then we prayed over each other. We told our stories\u2014just a few women told their stories\u2014women were crying so hard, because there is something about: \u201cOh, I\u2019m not alone. I\u2019m not the only one who feels like this. I\u2019m not the only one <em>struggling<\/em>. There is hope in Jesus and the gospel, and He is enough; but I also need my sisters who are locking arms with me.\u201d\n\nI love that that is necessary, because I can\u2019t do it alone. When I\u2019m in my own thoughts, I can go to places where I\u2019m just feeling so sorry for myself; or I\u2019m belittling myself, and I\u2019m in shame; but there is something\u2014when you\u2019re with Jesus and a friend, where they both lift up your head if you center on Christ.\n\nI thought it was interesting, too; because as I was thinking about this\u2014you talked about how we go into this cycle of production and escape\u2014I was reading this, and I was so convicted. [Laughter] I thought, \u201cThis is exactly what we do.\u201d We\u2019re overscheduled and over-worked, and then we collapse in exhaustion.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014and we want chocolate.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and a Netflix movie.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes; for sure.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I feel like that\u2019s what most of us do. We have this crazy schedule, and then we\u2019re just going to fall apart.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Are you saying that\u2019s not healthy? [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> I\u2019m not saying you have to give up Netflix. [Laughter] But I am saying: \u201cWhere do we actually go [for] comfort?\u201d and \u201cWhere do we go to rest?\u201d\n\nI think what is so beautiful about the Hebrew Scriptures is that the day actually starts in the night; right? We start numbering the hours in the middle of the night. What that means then is we don\u2019t start into like the production of the day and then rest, which is what we tend to do\u2014or not even rest probably\u2014we\u2019re just falling into exhaustion.\n\nBut if, actually, rest is the first word\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And that\u2019s like the Sabbath;\u2014\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Exactly.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014it <em>starts<\/em> in the evening.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes; if rest\u2014when we\u2019re vulnerable, and it\u2019s dark, and we can\u2019t control things\u2014is how the world starts and how grace starts, how revolutionary would that be for us to feel like, \u201cI\u2019m going to rest first, because I know God is in control,\u201d and \u201cI don\u2019t hold the world up; I don\u2019t need to keep it spinning\u201d? Then my work can be a <em>response<\/em> to that rest that Jesus has given to me.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> In a sense, when I hear that, I think our most natural response is: \u201cI don\u2019t have time to rest.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And young moms are like, \u201cWho has time for that?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right; right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Part of that\u2014at least, from a non-mom guy, me\u2014[Laughter]\u2014not thinking about the kids even part\u2014I\u2019m thinking, \u201cI don\u2019t have time to rest, because I need to <em>work<\/em> to provide.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right; right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What I\u2019m really saying is: \u201cI can\u2019t trust God enough to take a day,\u2014\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cor take an hour, or an evening and say: \u2018I don\u2019t have to make a phone call.\u2019 \u2018I don\u2019t have to work,\u2019 \u2018I don\u2019t have to make money right now. I\u2019m going to trust God and obey.\u2019\u201d\n\nWe know this\u2014one of the Ten Commandments!\u2014that\u2019s how <em>big<\/em> it was to God: rest. I think He\u2019s saying what you did: \u201cProductive work comes out of rest,\u201d\u2014not rest should be <em>after<\/em> work\u2014it is: \u201cRest sets you up to work in a productive way, and He\u2019ll take care of the rest\u201d; right?\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> I think that is <em>exactly<\/em> right, that we can easily confuse the order. When we confuse the order, we set ourselves up to be little gods instead of <em>under<\/em> God\u2019s authority.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019ll just add this for one last thought\u2014and this is the pastor in me coming out, probably; and your husband would say the same thing\u2014is we do the same thing with money.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s like: \u201cI can\u2019t <em>give<\/em> to God until I know all the bills are paid; and whatever is left over, maybe, I\u2019ll give Him a little bit,\u201d\u2014rather than\u2014\u201cYou know what? I\u2019m going to give a tithe,\u201d\u2014what?!\u2014\u201cten percent at the <em>beginning<\/em> and trust that God will make it work. He <em>does<\/em>; because we\u2019ve done that; but it\u2019s <em>hard<\/em> because it comes back to: \u201cIs Jesus enough?\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014what we talked about earlier.\n\nWell, you know, it\u2019s interesting. All through your book, every chapter is an invitation, too; because limits in your life can be restricting <em>or<\/em> an invitation.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes, yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> One of them we haven\u2019t talked about\u2014that I think we have time to talk about\u2014an invitation to <em>delight<\/em>. What is that all about?\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> What is so great, as we consider a spacious life, is that it\u2019s really helping us remember, in our bodies and our bones: \u201cWhat does it look like to be a child of God?\u201d As self-made individuals, it can be really <em>hard<\/em> to return to that kind of sense of childlike faith.\n\nWhat is so beautiful about delight and play is that is something that children do. If we are children of God, that means we have the invitation to practice things like delight and play\u2014instead of saying, basically: \u201cOur <em>real<\/em> identity is like working machines\u201d; you know? Thinking of ourselves like our iPhones<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>; that we plug in every night to recharge so we can keep working\u2014but really, it\u2019s [confident] children, who can risk, and play, and delight.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It is interesting. I don\u2019t know exactly if I am getting the stat right\u2014but the average child laughs\u2014do you know?\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s over 100 times a day.\n\n<strong>Ashley: <\/strong>Okay.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>The average adult laughs less than 15\u2014\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Oh, wow!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014a day. It\u2019s interesting; you often hear adults, saying, \u201cHey, grow up!\u201d\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Guess what happens when you grow up? You lose delight; you tend to become more serious. I mean, obviously, there are some benefits to that.\n\nBut I think there is something that would help almost every marriage. This woman\/my wife brings it into our marriage\u2014play. Just <em>play<\/em> is something that brings <em>life<\/em> back to a marriage when you say, \u201cYou know what? We\u2019re just going to <em>play<\/em>,\u201d\u2014whatever that looks like. Just <em>enjoy<\/em> one another in a moment of laughter; it changes a marriage.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Totally. I think, when you bring joy into your home and laughter\u2014and I am going to say, too\u2014\u201cThere are certain times that I don\u2019t feel like, \u2018Hey, let\u2019s play.\u2019\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes; right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I can remember thinking, \u201cDo you know how much I have to do?\u201d because that\u2019s\/we <em>all<\/em> have so much to do.\n\nI think it\u2019s a choice. We have to be intentional of creating moments and memories, where we are just going to relax: we\u2019re going to play; we\u2019re going to laugh; we\u2019re going to play games.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What\u2019s that one time\u2014I\u2019m trying to remember if I am getting this right, where you said you were doing the dishes\u2014and Cody or somebody\/one of the boys wanted you to come out and see the sunset?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> No, they wanted me to come out and <em>play<\/em> with them. Dave was out of town; and I\u2019m doing the dishes, thinking, \u201cI just want them to get in the house, get their baths, and get in bed so that I can rest and recharge to get all my work done,\u201d\u2014it\u2019s the cell phone!\n\n<strong>Ashley: <\/strong>Right; yes!\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>When he came\u2014\u201cPlease, Mom! Please come out. We\u2019re playing capture the flag,\u201d\u2014I remember saying, \u201cGuys, you know, I\u2019ve got so much to do.\u201d\n\nThey left; and I remember thinking, \u201cHow many more times will they come and <em>ask<\/em> me to play with them?\u201d I put the towel down\u2014I did not want to; I just wanted you to know\u2014sometimes, I have to <em>choose<\/em> it. I went out there. We laughed so hard\u2014I fell down; my shoe came off\u2014we won the game. They thought it was <em>amazing<\/em>; it was this great memory.\n\nI thought, \u201cMan, that is what our life is about. We have to <em>choose<\/em> to walk with Jesus at times. We have to <em>choose<\/em> to engage and create joy and laughter in our homes.\u201d That creates this setting of this <em>spacious<\/em> life.\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Yes; yes, I love that.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I was going to say it is your metaphor of the spacious life\u2014really, from Scripture\/the Psalms\u2014the spacious life. That son, coming in, was an invitation. Often, we don\u2019t realize God is in that invitation\u2014that was the son, running in the kitchen\u2014you don\u2019t realize He invited you.\n\nGuess what? Every invitation is a \u201cYes,\u201d or a \u201cNo.\u201d If you say, \u201cNo,\u201d sometimes, you miss the spacious life. Then there are sometimes you have to say, \u201cNo\u201d; but often, if we say, \u201cYou know what? I don\u2019t realize what I\u2019m saying, \u2018Yes,\u2019 to right now; but this is the life God has called us to live.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ashley:<\/strong> Right; right. \u201cSo are you going to live in your <em>given<\/em> life?\u201d or \u201cAre you going to pine for what you haven\u2019t had?\u201d Are you going to say, \u201cOh, that good life is way off in the future\u201d?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; so I would just say, as we close: \u201cOpen your eyes today. Open your ears today. Look for the invitation.\u201d I think I can say, \u201cThere is going to be one today\u2014maybe, several\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Every day, God is calling us and inviting us.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cfrom God to the spacious life.\u201d You can say, \u201cYes.\u201d I\u2019m telling you: it is worth taking that; a \u201cYes,\u201d has consequences that are good.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I had to think, listening to Dave and Ann Wilson and their conversation with Ashley Hales, about the Apostle Paul, who spent a lot of time in prison\u2014you talk about the opposite of a spacious life\u2014being in the Mamertine Prison in Rome was completely different; and yet, he said, in Philippians, Chapter 4, \u201cI\u2019ve learned the secret of being content.\u201d He had found the spacious life, even in a prison cell.\n\nAshley\u2019s book, <em>A Spacious Life<\/em>, is all about how we can find God\u2019s goodness in the midst of whatever circumstance we\u2019re in. It\u2019s a book we\u2019ve got copies of in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go online to order, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the book is called <em>A Spacious Life<\/em>. Our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Order the book from us online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call to order at 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nNow, we talked about this already this week; but I wanted to make sure you are all aware. Next week, as you listen to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, things will sound a little different at the end of the program. That is because my friend, Shelby Abbott, is going to be stepping in to take over the responsibilities of being here each day and wrapping up the program.\n\nShelby is here with us today, and I\u2019m excited Shelby about this new role you are stepping into and the assignment that God has for you here.\n\n<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> Yes, I\u2019m excited too. I don\u2019t have too much experience with radio; but I have been doing stage emceeing for over 20 years, and I am excited to see how God is going to translate that into this.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You have started a new podcast; tell our listeners about that.\n\n<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> It is a podcast called <em>Real Life Loading<\/em> for 18- to 28-year-olds. It\u2019s coming out very, very soon from FamilyLife.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019re an author; tell our listeners about the books you have written.\n\n<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> I\u2019ve written a couple books for the campus ministry of Cru<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u2014a dating book and a devotional on evangelism\u2014but the latest two books that I have written: one was about doubt\u2014the subject of doubt\u2014seeing so many of these de-construction stories handled poorly amongst many, many Christians. I wanted to write about that. Then I also wrote about cohabitation versus marriage <em>for<\/em> FamilyLife.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes, and how long have you been married?\n\n<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been married for 15 years, and my wife is on staff with the campus ministry of Cru. She\u2019s a graphic designer.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Children?\n\n<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> Yes, we have two daughters: a ten-year-old about entering into sixth grade\u2014God, help me\u2014a second grader\/an eight-year-old. They are delightful.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019m excited that our listeners are going to get an opportunity to get to know you in the weeks ahead and am glad to have you stepping into this assignment.\n\n<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> Yes, me too. And we hope that our listeners have a great weekend. Hope that you are able to worship at your local church\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wait; wait; wait; wait; wait. I really ought to\u2014I mean, I don\u2019t want to step on your toes\u2014but I should do this one last time.\n\n<strong>Shelby:<\/strong> Sure; it\u2019s your last one. Go ahead; take it. [Laughter] Roll with it.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We do hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together in your local church this weekend, and I hope you can join us back on Monday. David and Meg Robbins are going to be here to talk about the steps necessary to get ready for the big day\u2014the day you say, \u201cI do,\u201d\u2014what does it look like to really prepare for marriage? That comes up Monday. I hope you can be with us for that.\n\nOn behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back Monday for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.\n\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2022 FamilyLife. 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