{"id":307398,"date":"2022-02-09T08:03:53","date_gmt":"2022-02-09T13:03:53","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/sexually-broken-tough-conversations-with-culture\/"},"modified":"2024-10-24T14:29:05","modified_gmt":"2024-10-24T18:29:05","slug":"sexually-broken-tough-conversations-with-culture","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/sexually-broken-tough-conversations-with-culture\/","title":{"rendered":"Sexually Broken: Tough Conversations with Culture"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">How do we, as Christians, talk about pornography, physical intimacy, and LGBTQ culture with those we care about? On FamilyLife Today, speaker and author Sean McDowell addresses the brokenness our world faces and what it means to honor another person.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Author Sean McDowell offers ideas talk about porn, sex, and LGBTQ issues with those we care about in a sexually broken world.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2022-02-09.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:25:13","filesize":"23.09M","filesize_raw":"24209857","date_recorded":"2022-02-09 08:03:53","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848,2885],"tags":[7036],"podcast_series":[8502],"cwp_profile":[9849],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307398","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","category-good-marriages-made-better","tag-sexually-broken","podcast_series-chasing-love","cwp_profile-dr-sean-mcdowell","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307398\/sexually-broken-tough-conversations-with-culture","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307398\/sexually-broken-tough-conversations-with-culture","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"KOjG66iUSf\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/sexually-broken-tough-conversations-with-culture\/\">Sexually Broken: Tough Conversations with Culture<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/sexually-broken-tough-conversations-with-culture\/embed\/#?secret=KOjG66iUSf\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Sexually Broken: Tough Conversations with Culture&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"KOjG66iUSf\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2022-02-09.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2022-02-09.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Dave, what do you think are the top three issues that we, as followers of Jesus, we just need help in how to think and dialogue about this, especially with our kids?<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><em>\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Pornography\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014not just men\u2014it <em>was<\/em> just men; it\u2019s still in my world, a lot of men\u2014but it\u2019s women as well.<\/p>\n<p>Homosexuality or the whole LGBT question and \u201cHow do you respond to that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>We probably don\u2019t even have time today to get into it: but even transgender, same-sex attraction, but even gender dysphoria\u2014I mean, every day I see, and I shouldn\u2019t be on social media every day, but I\u2019m there watching what people are dialoguing about it\u2014and those seem to be rising to the top.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think, as parents\u2014as I talk to especially moms\u2014these are the issues that they\u2019re not sure <em>how<\/em> to talk to their kids about it, because we haven\u2019t faced it as much as we are in this culture today.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and I\u2019ll tell you: there\u2019s not too many people I\u2019d want to talk to about this more than Dr. Sean McDowell. I\u2019m not kidding, Sean,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014having you here, as a dad, as an apologist, as a man with a doctorate in these kind of questions, and just written a <em>book<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>Of all the things you\u2019ve written\u2014you\u2019ve written a lot about apologetics\u2014and this one\u2019s more\/it\u2019s about apologetics; but it\u2019s in the area of <em>Love, Sex and Relationships in a Confused Culture<\/em>; in fact, I just gave you the subtitle. [Laughter] But it\u2019s called <em>Chasing Love<\/em>, which is what every one of us is doing every second of our lives. Now, we\u2019re trying to help our young people understand that in a confused culture.<\/p>\n<p>Welcome back. It\u2019s going be great to have a discussion with <em>you<\/em> about those topics.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Well, thanks for having me back. I would echo what you\u2019re saying, that whenever I talk with students and I open up for questions, the top two or three are about sexuality and typically something related to the LGBTQ conversation; so let\u2019s talk about it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, and you put that in your book. I mean, a lot of us\u2014you know I\u2019ve written\u2014it\u2019s like, \u201cI don\u2019t know if I\u2019m going there.\u201d <em>You\u2019re<\/em> going there, and you have chapters on those. We\u2019re not going to be able to get into all of them; so I would tell our listener: \u201cGet the book, and even get the nine-week Bible study or nine-session Bible study.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I would agree with that, Dave. And I would say, \u201cShare that. Use this as a Bible study, even if you\u2019re a mom. Share this with your friends; talk about it. Maybe you do this study together; bring some of your kids in.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>What\u2019s your podcast? What\u2019s the name of that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> That\u2019s called <em>Think Biblically<\/em>. It\u2019s out of Biola University. There\u2019s a lot of overlap with what we do here; but we talk about culture, worldview, theology, and just try to equip people to defend and know their beliefs.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Would this be something good for high school kids to listen to\/college kids?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> High school and college kids spend a lot more time on YouTube than they do listening to podcasts; but we jump right into content and talk about the thorniest, yet most important, topics of our day from a biblical perspective.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Alright; I\u2019ll play like a devil\u2019s advocate: \u201cSean, you know, I don\u2019t think porn\u2019s that big a deal. I watch it,\u201d\u2014by the way, listener, I <em>don\u2019t<\/em>; okay?\u2014[Laughter]\u2014but you know, any typical man or woman may say, \u201cIt\u2019s not that harmful.\u201d You have some myths in your book about it, so how would you answer that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I would say, Dave\u2014and more and more couples are saying\u2014\u201cWe watch it as a couple, and it\u2019s not that big of a deal. It really helps us, and my therapist has even recommended it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Are you hearing this from Christian couples, or you hearing this from non-Christian couples?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019ve heard it from a <em>few<\/em> new Christians, who haven\u2019t heard any teaching on it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean: <\/strong>Okay; a <em>new<\/em> Christian would be different than a non-Christian; because one of the things we don\u2019t want to do to new Christians is go: \u201cWhat\u2019s the matter with you?! Porn is wrong!\u201d There\u2019s discipleship and there\u2019s growth, and there\u2019s time that we need to allow new Christians to develop into.<\/p>\n<p>If this new Christian couple said that to me, I\u2019d say, \u201cTell me a little bit more about yourself. Tell me about your relationship with your wife. How does <em>she<\/em> feel when you look at this?\u201d I would kind of be on an information gathering. He might say, \u201cOh, she\u2019s fine with it.\u201d I\u2019d say, \u201cHave you really <em>asked<\/em> her that?\u201d Because I\u2019m suspicious that a lot of wives would say that\u2014they might acquiesce and agree\u2014but probably, ideally, <em>don\u2019t<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>I would start there, and then I would also go to Scripture. I\u2019d say, \u201cHave you ever thought about\u2014I know you\u2019re new to the faith\u2014have you spent a lot of time thinking about what God\u2019s design for sex is and the plan from Genesis all the way through Scripture? Have you thought about that very much?\u201d If they\u2019re new Christians, maybe <em>not<\/em>. Then you can take them to the text: take them to Genesis 1; take them to<\/p>\n<p>Matthew 19.<\/p>\n<p>The other way you can go\u2014which I don\u2019t want to just start with\u2014\u201cHere\u2019s why it\u2019s <em>bad<\/em> for you\u201d; because the bigger question is: \u2018Are we honoring God with our bodies? Are you being <em>holy<\/em>?\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Is that how you would start the conversation?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> With a Christian, I would take them to Scripture. I would\/the problem with consequences, especially with young people, is they feel like, if they\u2019re looking at porn the way you describe, they feel like: \u201cI\u2019m the exception; it doesn\u2019t affect me.\u201d So it\u2019s <em>not<\/em> as effective as you think it could be.<\/p>\n<p>Now, you could share <em>stories<\/em> of people and say, \u201cYou know what? I\u2019ve actually talked to a couple that were young [and] married, and they said the same thing. Are you curious where they are now, five years later, having sat where you sat, and are you open to what their thoughts would be, back to themselves, saying the very things you\u2019ve said to me?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I might go that direction but I\u2019m leery just with the consequences thing, because I remember being a kid and my dad would talk about STDs. So I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, I haven\u2019t had sex; my girlfriend hasn\u2019t had sex, so neither of us would get an STD. I can check that one off the box.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I used to think that same thing: \u201cWell, that\u2019s not going to happen\u201d; so yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Right? That\u2019s why I start off the book by saying the bigger question is: \u201cWhat does it mean to love God? What does it mean to love other people? Is pornography honoring to those people? Is it honoring to God? Is it honoring to your spouse to be looking at somebody else naked?\u201d These are really fair questions that I would lovingly and graciously try to get these couples to <em>think<\/em> through.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019re going to tell your kids, or tell anybody that asks, \u201cIt\u2019s wrong; it\u2019s bad, <em>because<\/em> it hurts you to love God and love others.\u201d Is that where you\u2019re going to head?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Ultimately: \u201cBe holy, because I am holy [1 Peter 1:16],\u201d\u2014that\u2019s why. It\u2019s <em>not<\/em> for the consequences; it\u2019s <em>not<\/em> to get something from God: \u201cDon\u2019t have sex so you get a reward of great sex later,\u201d or \u201c\u2026great babies later.\u201d That\u2019s not what it\u2019s for. It\u2019s: \u201cBe holy, because I am holy.\u201d God has called us\u2014the greatest commandment is\u2014\u201cLove God and love other people.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>How we act in terms of sexuality is simply an extension of the larger question of discipleship: \u201cWho are we?\u201d \u201cWhat\u2019s my life about?\u201d \u201cWhat does it mean to love people?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> One of the things you said in your book was that research indicates that porn use contributes to many young Christians <em>leaving<\/em> their faith.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> It does.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Why is that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> My dad, in 2016, commissioned a huge study with the Barna Research Group called The Porn Phenomenon. What they found is, as Christian students increasingly looked at pornography, it would <em>decrease<\/em> their belief in the <em>authority<\/em> of the Scriptures; you could almost see a direct correlation there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Really?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Now, exactly why is a little tougher to figure out. But when somebody\u2019s looking at pornography, it is directly opposed to a biblical view of sex, love, and marriage. The Bible says: \u201cKeep the marriage bed pure and honor it (Hebrews 13:4).\u201d Well, what does pornography do?\u2014it\u2019s all about premarital sex or extramarital sex\u2014\u201cLive for yourself; do what feels good.\u201d If somebody looks at pornography, it teaches them to use people as objects for their own gain. It teaches the opposite of self-control; it teaches: \u201cLive for what <em>feels<\/em> good.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Those are totally opposed to Scripture that says, \u201cNo, actually, restraint and self-control is good. Don\u2019t <em>use<\/em> people; <em>love<\/em> people.\u201d Even though people don\u2019t connect those dots, looking at pornography undermines the confidence that actually God\u2019s design is good, and it\u2019s still relevant today, and it applies to my life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m trying to remember if I am getting this right, from hearing your dad\u2014again, when I was in college\u2014say something like\u2014and you\u2019ll know if this is even accurate or not\u2014but what you just said made me think along these lines. I remember him saying something like, \u201cOften, when somebody comes up to me with an intellectual question about the faith, it\u2019s usually a smoke screen for more of a moral issue.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Again, it may not be that kind of thing; but do you find, that often, that the porn use has contributed to people walking away from the faith? That\u2019s not an intellectual: \u201cI don\u2019t believe in God anymore\u201d; it\u2019s <em>moral<\/em>, and it has a way of desensitizing our soul in a sense.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> I think, when people are questioning God, it sounds more sophisticated to cache it in intellectual terms; but underneath that, it\u2019s often relational brokenness\/emotional brokenness\u2014just volitional\/my will\u2014\u201cIt\u2019s my life\u201d; right? Thinking of songs\u2014\u201cIt\u2019s my life,\u201d\u2014I did it<em> My Way. <\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You want me to sing it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Oftentimes, there\u2019s a moral component, as well. That\u2019s why, for me, in evangelism and spiritual conversation, I\u2019m often thinking, \u201cWhat\u2019s the question behind the question?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I had a young man tell me one time; he asked me all these questions about God and he goes, \u201cHonestly, here\u2019s the deal: I think Jesus is God, but I am texting right now a whole bunch of different girls that I\u2019ll hook up with. Why would I give that up for some belief?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Now, I\u2019m not saying that\u2019s true for every atheist; that would be a very unfair stereotype. But it\u2019s certainly true sometimes. We realize that we can\u2019t separate belief that God exists, and the Bible\u2019s true, from how we live; because Jesus said, \u201cYou were bought with a price. Honor God with your bodies. You are not you own [1 Corinthians 6:19-20].\u201d People realize that what we believe about the Bible is going to play itself out in your relationships.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> It is interesting to think, if a person is listening right now, and they\u2019re struggling with porn\u2014one of the things that you just highlighted is\u2014\u201cDude,\u201d or \u201cWoman, be very careful. You think this is a porn struggle; this is a <em>faith<\/em> struggle\u201d; right? \u201cThere is a possibility this is going to lead you, if you keep\u2026\u201d You know, you think, \u201cIt\u2019s just this area of my life; it\u2019s this sexual thing\u201d; but it could\u2026\u2014right?\u2014is that what you are saying?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> You know what\u2019s interesting? There is a big study by Oxford. I can picture the cover of the book; his last name was Perry\u2014I\u2019d have to double check it\u2014and he talked about how even pornography contributes to young people questioning and leaving their faith; it\u2019s one piece.<\/p>\n<p>We all talk about kids have doubt and leave their faith; there are broken relationships. But kind of the elephant in the room is, the more somebody looks at pornography, the less confidence they have in the Christian narrative\u2014the less confidence they have\u2014and sometimes it\u2019s intellectual; sometimes it\u2019s experiential.<\/p>\n<p>Kids are told: \u201cConfess your sins and Jesus will take that temptation away.\u201d They go to the altar, and then the next day or that night, they\u2019re feeling temptation; fall into sin again; ask for forgiveness; go to the altar again. It becomes a cycle. Then eventually, kids are like, \u201cThis doesn\u2019t work. Maybe Christianity is false. I can\u2019t live in this tension; I\u2019m more free if I just embrace a different worldview.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wow! Do you think that\u2019s typical?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> It\u2019s so hard to say \u201ctypical.\u201d I can just say I have heard that narrative many times, and I see it a lot. How is that common? I don\u2019t know, but it\u2019s definitely <em>common<\/em> for many young people. We just teach a cheap grace and don\u2019t talk about real discipleship. And really it\u2019s grace that\u2019s going to help somebody through a porn addiction when they realize Jesus <em>covers<\/em> their shame.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; or any temptation. I mean, we all know this: \u201cWhen you play with something in the dark, it\u2019s going to affect all areas of your life.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I might have shared this here before; but it just made me think of a good buddy of ours, Dan Orlovsky. He was a quarterback for the Lions that came to Christ. Now, he\u2019s on ESPN; and he\u2019s a brand-new Christian.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is not now, but back\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> This was\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014when he was in Detroit.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014over a decade; 15\/20 years ago. He\u2019s married with three\u2014four kids now\u2014triplets and a little girl.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Wow!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, he\u2019s a sweet guy\u2014baptized him\u2014just an amazing\u2014and did their wedding. Anyway, he\u2019s a brand-new Christian; and he\u2019s coming out of an NFL quarterback lifestyle. He\u2019s got girls and parties.<\/p>\n<p>And he\u2019s with his buddy, Mike Furrey, who\u2019s farther along the way in his Christian walk. Mike\u2019s driving the car; Dan\u2019s sitting over here\u2014I hear this the next day\u2014Mike looks over, and Dan\u2019s got two phones. He looks over; and he goes, \u201cDan, you have two cell phones?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014which was pretty typical.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Pretty typical of the locker room.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Guys would have a separate phone\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Oh, gosh!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014for a separate life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Wow!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Mike looks over and sees Dan has these two: he\u2019s got one in his hand; he\u2019s pulling out two. He [Dan] goes, \u201cOh, yes; well, this is my phone I make calls with; but this is my phone I have my girls in.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Mike goes, \u201cOh, hey, let me see it.\u201d He hands it over to him. Mike opens the window and throws it out. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean: <\/strong>Good for him, man!I <em>love<\/em> it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> They start driving; and Dan\u2019s like, \u201cWhat are you doing?!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>He\u2019s [Mike\u2019s] like, \u201c<em>Dude<\/em>, that\u2019s your old life; you <em>can\u2019t<\/em> live in both worlds.\u201d Dan is the guy that tells the story; because he\u2019s like, \u201cI had <em>no<\/em> idea how right he was.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> And he <em>loved<\/em> it\u2014he <em>loved<\/em> that Mike did that\u2014like, \u201cWait; that\u2019s wrong? I shouldn\u2019t do that?\u201d It was this great discipleship ministry that Mike had.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Whether it\u2019s porn or whatever temptation it is, man, you\u2019ve got to be very, very careful.<\/p>\n<p>Okay, a <em>burning<\/em> question in our culture right now is the LGBTQ question. How, as followers of Christ, do we deal with this? How do we <em>love<\/em> one another?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and have a dialogue\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> How do we understand it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014with our kids, and understand it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> First thing we\u2019ve got to do with our kids is start young. I get heartbreaking emails almost weekly, if not daily, from parents who are like, \u201cMy kid\u2019s 17; and all of a sudden, they came out; and they\u2019re embracing this narrative. What do I do?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Of course, I don\u2019t say this; I want to say, \u201cWere you talking with your kids when they were eight, and they were ten, and they were twelve?\u201d These conversations start <em>early<\/em>; that\u2019s the first thing.<\/p>\n<p>The same thing: we also have to model for our kids what this looks like. I have found more people that feel like: \u201cEither you\u2019re a jerk and you\u2019re a bigot, and you take the biblical view\u201d, or \u201cYou have to be affirming and <em>change<\/em> the biblical narrative to love somebody.\u201d Of course, a lot of people in our culture will say that.<\/p>\n<p>I found that <em>doesn\u2019t<\/em> have to be the case. Jesus believed in truth very firmly but was loving and gracious towards people who were outside the faith. That\u2019s the trick for our kids\u2014is just say\u2014\u201cHere\u2019s what Scripture teaches\u2026\u201d \u201cHere\u2019s why\u2026\u201d \u201cNow, how do we lovingly live this out with other people?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>One thing I would say to parents is just be careful about\u2014if you hear a song\/if you\u2019re watching a TV show\u2014and say a gay couple comes up. Be careful how you <em>talk<\/em> about this issue and these people, who are made in the image of God; because kids are listening. I had a young man come out to me\u2014it\u2019s probably been three or four years\u2014he said, \u201cI\u2019m just <em>afraid<\/em> to tell my parents. I know they love me, and they\u2019re Christians; but I can remember certain\u201d\u2014what he interpreted as\u2014\u201cbigoted, homophobic statements, and now I know that they view me differently.\u201d Those parents had <em>no<\/em> idea what they were doing.<\/p>\n<p>When we were growing up, my dad would take us down to Laguna Beach, because we lived in the mountains of San Diego. We\u2019d go there maybe two to three times of the year\u2014stay on the beach as a family\u2014and would intentionally take us to a restaurant. There was a waiter there by the name of Jade, who was gay. He actually ended up dying by AIDS. I just saw my dad\u2014I remember him befriending him\u2014being <em>so kind<\/em> with him.<\/p>\n<p>One time, in front of our family, my dad is bold\/he goes, \u201cJade, I just want my family to learn.\u201d He goes, \u201cWould you share with my kids, \u2018What is it like to be gay in America today?\u2019 Do you mind sharing with our family?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Now, some people are like, \u201cYou <em>can\u2019t<\/em> ask that!\u201d Well, my dad had a relationship with him; he was willing to listen. That just showed me and taught us, as kids, that your sexual orientation is irrelevant to being made in the image of God. We <em>all<\/em> have something to learn. We can <em>all<\/em> build relationships, and God loves them and God loves us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> What\u2019s that conversation sound like?\u2014let\u2019s say to an eight-year-old\u2014like how did that start? I\u2019m thinking of parents listening, like, \u201cTell me how to do it,\u201d whether they\u2019re eight, or twelve, or\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Well, eight and twelve would probably sound a little bit different\u2014but I\u2019ve had\u2014let me take my daughter, when she was twelve. A lot of kids will have friends, who start coming out at this stage. I just asked my daughter a lot of questions; I said: \u201cDid this surprise you?\u201d \u201cWhat are some ways your friends responded?\u201d \u201cWhy do you think it was so hard for them to come out?\u201d \u201cHow did <em>you<\/em> respond?\u201d And walk it through.<\/p>\n<p>My daughter had a friend, who has come out, and struggling with identity. My daughter goes, \u201cHey, he just texted me.\u201d I said, \u201cOkay, let\u2019s do this together; let\u2019s talk through a response.\u201d She\u2019s like, \u201cOkay, Dad, tell me what to say.\u201d Inside, I\u2019m thinking, \u201cI care about this kid, but I\u2019m helping my daughter <em>model<\/em>, like: \u2018Hey, we love you,\u201d and \u201cI know your parents are doing your best.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>These are <em>opportunities<\/em> with our kids. Just make sure it\u2019s positive; go back to Scripture and just teach it in an age-appropriate way. That\u2019s all that we can do. How to explain what it means to be gay to an eight-year-old would obviously be different than a twelve-year-old, but you just do your best. If you make mistakes, and you\u2019re trying, and it\u2019s done in a spirit of love, the Bible says, \u201cLove covers a multitude of sins.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You say in this chapter, \u201cStay faithful to Scripture; be a good friend.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s right!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong><em>But<\/em> often, when I\u2019m a good friend, and I\u2019m faithful to Scripture, there comes a rub. At some point, it\u2019s like, \u201cYou\u2019re not really a good friend, because you <em>aren\u2019t<\/em> agreeing with my lifestyle.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Yes; here\u2019s how I counsel young people\u2014I\u2019ve done this many times\u2014I\u2019ll say:<\/p>\n<p>\u201cOkay, do you and I differ over important things?\u201d \u201cYes.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cHere\u2019s what I want you to know: my relationship with you will <em>never<\/em> change\u2014my love for you\u2014based on anything you believe or you <em>don\u2019t<\/em> believe. I don\u2019t care if you change your religion\/your sexuality; I love and I care about you.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cMy hope is that you would extend this same kind of friendship to me. Because I actually think it\u2019s our difference that we can be friends, amidst a big difference, that actually makes this friendship meaningful. But if you\u2019re going to end this because I won\u2019t believe what you believe, know that I would never do that to you. The moment you want to be back in relationship with me, I\u2019m here; because I care about you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Now, I\u2019ve had\u2014I\u2019ve also said, \u201cParents,\u201d\u2014when kids say this to parents, sometimes, I\u2019ll get a little bit stronger. You have to be wise. I counseled a mom to say to her daughter\/say, \u201cYou know what? I love you no matter what, and this will <em>never<\/em> change. I raised you.\u201d Almost like: \u201cDon\u2019t you dare put my unconditional love for you on a certain definition that\u2019s coming from culture today. My love for you will <em>never<\/em> change. If <em>you<\/em> want to shut me out of your life, I can\u2019t control that; but I will <em>never<\/em> shut you out, period.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sometimes there\u2019s a time and place to be very firm with a young person. Now, can they walk away? I\u2019ve had parents say, \u201cYes, I tried that; and my kids want nothing to do with me.\u201d All I can say is: \u201cMy heart breaks for you. I\u2019m so sorry, but you are trying to live out a firm gracious love. You might have to give this some time; and I think God is looking down saying, \u2018Well done, my good and faithful servant.\u2019\u201d That\u2019s all we can do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> The subject that Dave and Ann Wilson have been talking with Sean McDowell about this week is the subject of sexuality and gender, hot button subject in our culture today. Sean\u2019s written a book called <em>Chasing Love<\/em> that we\u2019re making available this week to any of you who can help with a donation to support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>Your donation extends the reach of this ministry. You make it possible for hundreds of thousands of people, every day, to connect with FamilyLife and receive practical biblical help and hope for their marriage and their family. That\u2019s what you\u2019re investing in when you make a donation to this ministry.<\/p>\n<p>You can donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. Again, when you do, request your copy of Sean McDowell\u2019s book, <em>Chasing Love: Sex,<\/em> <em>Love and Relationships in a Confused Culture<\/em>. We\u2019ll send it out to you, along with our thanks for your partnership with us in the ministry of the gospel and the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n<p>Now, I know that this is the time of year when a lot of church small groups are getting started up again. Maybe you\u2019re in a small group, where you guys are going through a book study or something. At FamilyLife, we\u2019ve got a number of small group resources that couples have found very helpful in pointing them toward God\u2019s design for marriage or for parenting. Recently, I did a series on my book, <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em>, a ten-part video series for couples to do in a small group setting. Dave and Ann Wilson have done <em>Vertical Marriage<\/em>. There are <em>many<\/em> of these small group studies available.<\/p>\n<p>You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to find out more about them. Right now, between now and February 18, if you use the promo code, \u201cNEWYEAR2022,\u201d you\u2019ll save 25 percent off any small group order. So go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, if you\u2019re looking for something related to marriage or parenting for your small group. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and check out what we\u2019ve got available and, again, use that promo code, \u201cNEWYEAR2022,\u201d to save 25 percent off.<\/p>\n<p>We hope you can be back with us, again, tomorrow when we\u2019re going to talk about one of the pandemics\/the hidden pandemics that we are facing in this culture that\u2019s not being talked about enough. That\u2019s the pandemic of pornography and the impact it\u2019s having on relationships, on marriages, on our soul. Ray Ortlund is going to be here with us for that. We hope you can be with us as well.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2022 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a><\/p>\n<p>1<\/p>\n"],"duration":["00:25:13"],"show_notes":["<p><!-- wp:list --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at shop.familylife.com.<\/li>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the FamilyLife's app!<\/li>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<li>Help others find Familylife.\u00a0 Leave a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify.<\/li>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<li>Check out all the Familylife's on the FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/li>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --><\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list 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Sean McDowell offers ideas talk about porn, sex, and LGBTQ issues with those we care about in a sexually broken world.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<p><!-- wp:list --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at shop.familylife.com.<\/li>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the FamilyLife's app!<\/li>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<li>Help others find Familylife.\u00a0 Leave a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify.<\/li>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<li>Check out all the Familylife's on the FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/li>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --><\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list --><\/p>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2022-02-09.pdf","transcript_content":"<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Dave, what do you think are the top three issues that we, as followers of Jesus, we just need help in how to think and dialogue about this, especially with our kids?<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><em>\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Pornography\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014not just men\u2014it <em>was<\/em> just men; it\u2019s still in my world, a lot of men\u2014but it\u2019s women as well.<\/p>\n<p>Homosexuality or the whole LGBT question and \u201cHow do you respond to that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>We probably don\u2019t even have time today to get into it: but even transgender, same-sex attraction, but even gender dysphoria\u2014I mean, every day I see, and I shouldn\u2019t be on social media every day, but I\u2019m there watching what people are dialoguing about it\u2014and those seem to be rising to the top.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think, as parents\u2014as I talk to especially moms\u2014these are the issues that they\u2019re not sure <em>how<\/em> to talk to their kids about it, because we haven\u2019t faced it as much as we are in this culture today.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and I\u2019ll tell you: there\u2019s not too many people I\u2019d want to talk to about this more than Dr. Sean McDowell. I\u2019m not kidding, Sean,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014having you here, as a dad, as an apologist, as a man with a doctorate in these kind of questions, and just written a <em>book<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>Of all the things you\u2019ve written\u2014you\u2019ve written a lot about apologetics\u2014and this one\u2019s more\/it\u2019s about apologetics; but it\u2019s in the area of <em>Love, Sex and Relationships in a Confused Culture<\/em>; in fact, I just gave you the subtitle. [Laughter] But it\u2019s called <em>Chasing Love<\/em>, which is what every one of us is doing every second of our lives. Now, we\u2019re trying to help our young people understand that in a confused culture.<\/p>\n<p>Welcome back. It\u2019s going be great to have a discussion with <em>you<\/em> about those topics.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Well, thanks for having me back. I would echo what you\u2019re saying, that whenever I talk with students and I open up for questions, the top two or three are about sexuality and typically something related to the LGBTQ conversation; so let\u2019s talk about it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, and you put that in your book. I mean, a lot of us\u2014you know I\u2019ve written\u2014it\u2019s like, \u201cI don\u2019t know if I\u2019m going there.\u201d <em>You\u2019re<\/em> going there, and you have chapters on those. We\u2019re not going to be able to get into all of them; so I would tell our listener: \u201cGet the book, and even get the nine-week Bible study or nine-session Bible study.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I would agree with that, Dave. And I would say, \u201cShare that. Use this as a Bible study, even if you\u2019re a mom. Share this with your friends; talk about it. Maybe you do this study together; bring some of your kids in.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>What\u2019s your podcast? What\u2019s the name of that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> That\u2019s called <em>Think Biblically<\/em>. It\u2019s out of Biola University. There\u2019s a lot of overlap with what we do here; but we talk about culture, worldview, theology, and just try to equip people to defend and know their beliefs.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Would this be something good for high school kids to listen to\/college kids?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> High school and college kids spend a lot more time on YouTube than they do listening to podcasts; but we jump right into content and talk about the thorniest, yet most important, topics of our day from a biblical perspective.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Alright; I\u2019ll play like a devil\u2019s advocate: \u201cSean, you know, I don\u2019t think porn\u2019s that big a deal. I watch it,\u201d\u2014by the way, listener, I <em>don\u2019t<\/em>; okay?\u2014[Laughter]\u2014but you know, any typical man or woman may say, \u201cIt\u2019s not that harmful.\u201d You have some myths in your book about it, so how would you answer that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I would say, Dave\u2014and more and more couples are saying\u2014\u201cWe watch it as a couple, and it\u2019s not that big of a deal. It really helps us, and my therapist has even recommended it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Are you hearing this from Christian couples, or you hearing this from non-Christian couples?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019ve heard it from a <em>few<\/em> new Christians, who haven\u2019t heard any teaching on it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean: <\/strong>Okay; a <em>new<\/em> Christian would be different than a non-Christian; because one of the things we don\u2019t want to do to new Christians is go: \u201cWhat\u2019s the matter with you?! Porn is wrong!\u201d There\u2019s discipleship and there\u2019s growth, and there\u2019s time that we need to allow new Christians to develop into.<\/p>\n<p>If this new Christian couple said that to me, I\u2019d say, \u201cTell me a little bit more about yourself. Tell me about your relationship with your wife. How does <em>she<\/em> feel when you look at this?\u201d I would kind of be on an information gathering. He might say, \u201cOh, she\u2019s fine with it.\u201d I\u2019d say, \u201cHave you really <em>asked<\/em> her that?\u201d Because I\u2019m suspicious that a lot of wives would say that\u2014they might acquiesce and agree\u2014but probably, ideally, <em>don\u2019t<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>I would start there, and then I would also go to Scripture. I\u2019d say, \u201cHave you ever thought about\u2014I know you\u2019re new to the faith\u2014have you spent a lot of time thinking about what God\u2019s design for sex is and the plan from Genesis all the way through Scripture? Have you thought about that very much?\u201d If they\u2019re new Christians, maybe <em>not<\/em>. Then you can take them to the text: take them to Genesis 1; take them to<\/p>\n<p>Matthew 19.<\/p>\n<p>The other way you can go\u2014which I don\u2019t want to just start with\u2014\u201cHere\u2019s why it\u2019s <em>bad<\/em> for you\u201d; because the bigger question is: \u2018Are we honoring God with our bodies? Are you being <em>holy<\/em>?\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Is that how you would start the conversation?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> With a Christian, I would take them to Scripture. I would\/the problem with consequences, especially with young people, is they feel like, if they\u2019re looking at porn the way you describe, they feel like: \u201cI\u2019m the exception; it doesn\u2019t affect me.\u201d So it\u2019s <em>not<\/em> as effective as you think it could be.<\/p>\n<p>Now, you could share <em>stories<\/em> of people and say, \u201cYou know what? I\u2019ve actually talked to a couple that were young [and] married, and they said the same thing. Are you curious where they are now, five years later, having sat where you sat, and are you open to what their thoughts would be, back to themselves, saying the very things you\u2019ve said to me?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I might go that direction but I\u2019m leery just with the consequences thing, because I remember being a kid and my dad would talk about STDs. So I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, I haven\u2019t had sex; my girlfriend hasn\u2019t had sex, so neither of us would get an STD. I can check that one off the box.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I used to think that same thing: \u201cWell, that\u2019s not going to happen\u201d; so yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Right? That\u2019s why I start off the book by saying the bigger question is: \u201cWhat does it mean to love God? What does it mean to love other people? Is pornography honoring to those people? Is it honoring to God? Is it honoring to your spouse to be looking at somebody else naked?\u201d These are really fair questions that I would lovingly and graciously try to get these couples to <em>think<\/em> through.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019re going to tell your kids, or tell anybody that asks, \u201cIt\u2019s wrong; it\u2019s bad, <em>because<\/em> it hurts you to love God and love others.\u201d Is that where you\u2019re going to head?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Ultimately: \u201cBe holy, because I am holy [1 Peter 1:16],\u201d\u2014that\u2019s why. It\u2019s <em>not<\/em> for the consequences; it\u2019s <em>not<\/em> to get something from God: \u201cDon\u2019t have sex so you get a reward of great sex later,\u201d or \u201c\u2026great babies later.\u201d That\u2019s not what it\u2019s for. It\u2019s: \u201cBe holy, because I am holy.\u201d God has called us\u2014the greatest commandment is\u2014\u201cLove God and love other people.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>How we act in terms of sexuality is simply an extension of the larger question of discipleship: \u201cWho are we?\u201d \u201cWhat\u2019s my life about?\u201d \u201cWhat does it mean to love people?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> One of the things you said in your book was that research indicates that porn use contributes to many young Christians <em>leaving<\/em> their faith.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> It does.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Why is that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> My dad, in 2016, commissioned a huge study with the Barna Research Group called The Porn Phenomenon. What they found is, as Christian students increasingly looked at pornography, it would <em>decrease<\/em> their belief in the <em>authority<\/em> of the Scriptures; you could almost see a direct correlation there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Really?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Now, exactly why is a little tougher to figure out. But when somebody\u2019s looking at pornography, it is directly opposed to a biblical view of sex, love, and marriage. The Bible says: \u201cKeep the marriage bed pure and honor it (Hebrews 13:4).\u201d Well, what does pornography do?\u2014it\u2019s all about premarital sex or extramarital sex\u2014\u201cLive for yourself; do what feels good.\u201d If somebody looks at pornography, it teaches them to use people as objects for their own gain. It teaches the opposite of self-control; it teaches: \u201cLive for what <em>feels<\/em> good.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Those are totally opposed to Scripture that says, \u201cNo, actually, restraint and self-control is good. Don\u2019t <em>use<\/em> people; <em>love<\/em> people.\u201d Even though people don\u2019t connect those dots, looking at pornography undermines the confidence that actually God\u2019s design is good, and it\u2019s still relevant today, and it applies to my life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m trying to remember if I am getting this right, from hearing your dad\u2014again, when I was in college\u2014say something like\u2014and you\u2019ll know if this is even accurate or not\u2014but what you just said made me think along these lines. I remember him saying something like, \u201cOften, when somebody comes up to me with an intellectual question about the faith, it\u2019s usually a smoke screen for more of a moral issue.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Again, it may not be that kind of thing; but do you find, that often, that the porn use has contributed to people walking away from the faith? That\u2019s not an intellectual: \u201cI don\u2019t believe in God anymore\u201d; it\u2019s <em>moral<\/em>, and it has a way of desensitizing our soul in a sense.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> I think, when people are questioning God, it sounds more sophisticated to cache it in intellectual terms; but underneath that, it\u2019s often relational brokenness\/emotional brokenness\u2014just volitional\/my will\u2014\u201cIt\u2019s my life\u201d; right? Thinking of songs\u2014\u201cIt\u2019s my life,\u201d\u2014I did it<em> My Way. <\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You want me to sing it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Oftentimes, there\u2019s a moral component, as well. That\u2019s why, for me, in evangelism and spiritual conversation, I\u2019m often thinking, \u201cWhat\u2019s the question behind the question?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I had a young man tell me one time; he asked me all these questions about God and he goes, \u201cHonestly, here\u2019s the deal: I think Jesus is God, but I am texting right now a whole bunch of different girls that I\u2019ll hook up with. Why would I give that up for some belief?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Now, I\u2019m not saying that\u2019s true for every atheist; that would be a very unfair stereotype. But it\u2019s certainly true sometimes. We realize that we can\u2019t separate belief that God exists, and the Bible\u2019s true, from how we live; because Jesus said, \u201cYou were bought with a price. Honor God with your bodies. You are not you own [1 Corinthians 6:19-20].\u201d People realize that what we believe about the Bible is going to play itself out in your relationships.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> It is interesting to think, if a person is listening right now, and they\u2019re struggling with porn\u2014one of the things that you just highlighted is\u2014\u201cDude,\u201d or \u201cWoman, be very careful. You think this is a porn struggle; this is a <em>faith<\/em> struggle\u201d; right? \u201cThere is a possibility this is going to lead you, if you keep\u2026\u201d You know, you think, \u201cIt\u2019s just this area of my life; it\u2019s this sexual thing\u201d; but it could\u2026\u2014right?\u2014is that what you are saying?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> You know what\u2019s interesting? There is a big study by Oxford. I can picture the cover of the book; his last name was Perry\u2014I\u2019d have to double check it\u2014and he talked about how even pornography contributes to young people questioning and leaving their faith; it\u2019s one piece.<\/p>\n<p>We all talk about kids have doubt and leave their faith; there are broken relationships. But kind of the elephant in the room is, the more somebody looks at pornography, the less confidence they have in the Christian narrative\u2014the less confidence they have\u2014and sometimes it\u2019s intellectual; sometimes it\u2019s experiential.<\/p>\n<p>Kids are told: \u201cConfess your sins and Jesus will take that temptation away.\u201d They go to the altar, and then the next day or that night, they\u2019re feeling temptation; fall into sin again; ask for forgiveness; go to the altar again. It becomes a cycle. Then eventually, kids are like, \u201cThis doesn\u2019t work. Maybe Christianity is false. I can\u2019t live in this tension; I\u2019m more free if I just embrace a different worldview.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wow! Do you think that\u2019s typical?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> It\u2019s so hard to say \u201ctypical.\u201d I can just say I have heard that narrative many times, and I see it a lot. How is that common? I don\u2019t know, but it\u2019s definitely <em>common<\/em> for many young people. We just teach a cheap grace and don\u2019t talk about real discipleship. And really it\u2019s grace that\u2019s going to help somebody through a porn addiction when they realize Jesus <em>covers<\/em> their shame.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; or any temptation. I mean, we all know this: \u201cWhen you play with something in the dark, it\u2019s going to affect all areas of your life.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I might have shared this here before; but it just made me think of a good buddy of ours, Dan Orlovsky. He was a quarterback for the Lions that came to Christ. Now, he\u2019s on ESPN; and he\u2019s a brand-new Christian.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is not now, but back\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> This was\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014when he was in Detroit.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014over a decade; 15\/20 years ago. He\u2019s married with three\u2014four kids now\u2014triplets and a little girl.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Wow!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, he\u2019s a sweet guy\u2014baptized him\u2014just an amazing\u2014and did their wedding. Anyway, he\u2019s a brand-new Christian; and he\u2019s coming out of an NFL quarterback lifestyle. He\u2019s got girls and parties.<\/p>\n<p>And he\u2019s with his buddy, Mike Furrey, who\u2019s farther along the way in his Christian walk. Mike\u2019s driving the car; Dan\u2019s sitting over here\u2014I hear this the next day\u2014Mike looks over, and Dan\u2019s got two phones. He looks over; and he goes, \u201cDan, you have two cell phones?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014which was pretty typical.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Pretty typical of the locker room.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Guys would have a separate phone\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Oh, gosh!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014for a separate life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Wow!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Mike looks over and sees Dan has these two: he\u2019s got one in his hand; he\u2019s pulling out two. He [Dan] goes, \u201cOh, yes; well, this is my phone I make calls with; but this is my phone I have my girls in.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Mike goes, \u201cOh, hey, let me see it.\u201d He hands it over to him. Mike opens the window and throws it out. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean: <\/strong>Good for him, man!I <em>love<\/em> it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> They start driving; and Dan\u2019s like, \u201cWhat are you doing?!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>He\u2019s [Mike\u2019s] like, \u201c<em>Dude<\/em>, that\u2019s your old life; you <em>can\u2019t<\/em> live in both worlds.\u201d Dan is the guy that tells the story; because he\u2019s like, \u201cI had <em>no<\/em> idea how right he was.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> And he <em>loved<\/em> it\u2014he <em>loved<\/em> that Mike did that\u2014like, \u201cWait; that\u2019s wrong? I shouldn\u2019t do that?\u201d It was this great discipleship ministry that Mike had.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Whether it\u2019s porn or whatever temptation it is, man, you\u2019ve got to be very, very careful.<\/p>\n<p>Okay, a <em>burning<\/em> question in our culture right now is the LGBTQ question. How, as followers of Christ, do we deal with this? How do we <em>love<\/em> one another?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and have a dialogue\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> How do we understand it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014with our kids, and understand it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> First thing we\u2019ve got to do with our kids is start young. I get heartbreaking emails almost weekly, if not daily, from parents who are like, \u201cMy kid\u2019s 17; and all of a sudden, they came out; and they\u2019re embracing this narrative. What do I do?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Of course, I don\u2019t say this; I want to say, \u201cWere you talking with your kids when they were eight, and they were ten, and they were twelve?\u201d These conversations start <em>early<\/em>; that\u2019s the first thing.<\/p>\n<p>The same thing: we also have to model for our kids what this looks like. I have found more people that feel like: \u201cEither you\u2019re a jerk and you\u2019re a bigot, and you take the biblical view\u201d, or \u201cYou have to be affirming and <em>change<\/em> the biblical narrative to love somebody.\u201d Of course, a lot of people in our culture will say that.<\/p>\n<p>I found that <em>doesn\u2019t<\/em> have to be the case. Jesus believed in truth very firmly but was loving and gracious towards people who were outside the faith. That\u2019s the trick for our kids\u2014is just say\u2014\u201cHere\u2019s what Scripture teaches\u2026\u201d \u201cHere\u2019s why\u2026\u201d \u201cNow, how do we lovingly live this out with other people?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>One thing I would say to parents is just be careful about\u2014if you hear a song\/if you\u2019re watching a TV show\u2014and say a gay couple comes up. Be careful how you <em>talk<\/em> about this issue and these people, who are made in the image of God; because kids are listening. I had a young man come out to me\u2014it\u2019s probably been three or four years\u2014he said, \u201cI\u2019m just <em>afraid<\/em> to tell my parents. I know they love me, and they\u2019re Christians; but I can remember certain\u201d\u2014what he interpreted as\u2014\u201cbigoted, homophobic statements, and now I know that they view me differently.\u201d Those parents had <em>no<\/em> idea what they were doing.<\/p>\n<p>When we were growing up, my dad would take us down to Laguna Beach, because we lived in the mountains of San Diego. We\u2019d go there maybe two to three times of the year\u2014stay on the beach as a family\u2014and would intentionally take us to a restaurant. There was a waiter there by the name of Jade, who was gay. He actually ended up dying by AIDS. I just saw my dad\u2014I remember him befriending him\u2014being <em>so kind<\/em> with him.<\/p>\n<p>One time, in front of our family, my dad is bold\/he goes, \u201cJade, I just want my family to learn.\u201d He goes, \u201cWould you share with my kids, \u2018What is it like to be gay in America today?\u2019 Do you mind sharing with our family?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Now, some people are like, \u201cYou <em>can\u2019t<\/em> ask that!\u201d Well, my dad had a relationship with him; he was willing to listen. That just showed me and taught us, as kids, that your sexual orientation is irrelevant to being made in the image of God. We <em>all<\/em> have something to learn. We can <em>all<\/em> build relationships, and God loves them and God loves us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> What\u2019s that conversation sound like?\u2014let\u2019s say to an eight-year-old\u2014like how did that start? I\u2019m thinking of parents listening, like, \u201cTell me how to do it,\u201d whether they\u2019re eight, or twelve, or\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Well, eight and twelve would probably sound a little bit different\u2014but I\u2019ve had\u2014let me take my daughter, when she was twelve. A lot of kids will have friends, who start coming out at this stage. I just asked my daughter a lot of questions; I said: \u201cDid this surprise you?\u201d \u201cWhat are some ways your friends responded?\u201d \u201cWhy do you think it was so hard for them to come out?\u201d \u201cHow did <em>you<\/em> respond?\u201d And walk it through.<\/p>\n<p>My daughter had a friend, who has come out, and struggling with identity. My daughter goes, \u201cHey, he just texted me.\u201d I said, \u201cOkay, let\u2019s do this together; let\u2019s talk through a response.\u201d She\u2019s like, \u201cOkay, Dad, tell me what to say.\u201d Inside, I\u2019m thinking, \u201cI care about this kid, but I\u2019m helping my daughter <em>model<\/em>, like: \u2018Hey, we love you,\u201d and \u201cI know your parents are doing your best.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>These are <em>opportunities<\/em> with our kids. Just make sure it\u2019s positive; go back to Scripture and just teach it in an age-appropriate way. That\u2019s all that we can do. How to explain what it means to be gay to an eight-year-old would obviously be different than a twelve-year-old, but you just do your best. If you make mistakes, and you\u2019re trying, and it\u2019s done in a spirit of love, the Bible says, \u201cLove covers a multitude of sins.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You say in this chapter, \u201cStay faithful to Scripture; be a good friend.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s right!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong><em>But<\/em> often, when I\u2019m a good friend, and I\u2019m faithful to Scripture, there comes a rub. At some point, it\u2019s like, \u201cYou\u2019re not really a good friend, because you <em>aren\u2019t<\/em> agreeing with my lifestyle.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Yes; here\u2019s how I counsel young people\u2014I\u2019ve done this many times\u2014I\u2019ll say:<\/p>\n<p>\u201cOkay, do you and I differ over important things?\u201d \u201cYes.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cHere\u2019s what I want you to know: my relationship with you will <em>never<\/em> change\u2014my love for you\u2014based on anything you believe or you <em>don\u2019t<\/em> believe. I don\u2019t care if you change your religion\/your sexuality; I love and I care about you.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cMy hope is that you would extend this same kind of friendship to me. Because I actually think it\u2019s our difference that we can be friends, amidst a big difference, that actually makes this friendship meaningful. But if you\u2019re going to end this because I won\u2019t believe what you believe, know that I would never do that to you. The moment you want to be back in relationship with me, I\u2019m here; because I care about you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sean:<\/strong> Now, I\u2019ve had\u2014I\u2019ve also said, \u201cParents,\u201d\u2014when kids say this to parents, sometimes, I\u2019ll get a little bit stronger. You have to be wise. I counseled a mom to say to her daughter\/say, \u201cYou know what? I love you no matter what, and this will <em>never<\/em> change. I raised you.\u201d Almost like: \u201cDon\u2019t you dare put my unconditional love for you on a certain definition that\u2019s coming from culture today. My love for you will <em>never<\/em> change. If <em>you<\/em> want to shut me out of your life, I can\u2019t control that; but I will <em>never<\/em> shut you out, period.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sometimes there\u2019s a time and place to be very firm with a young person. Now, can they walk away? I\u2019ve had parents say, \u201cYes, I tried that; and my kids want nothing to do with me.\u201d All I can say is: \u201cMy heart breaks for you. I\u2019m so sorry, but you are trying to live out a firm gracious love. You might have to give this some time; and I think God is looking down saying, \u2018Well done, my good and faithful servant.\u2019\u201d That\u2019s all we can do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> The subject that Dave and Ann Wilson have been talking with Sean McDowell about this week is the subject of sexuality and gender, hot button subject in our culture today. Sean\u2019s written a book called <em>Chasing Love<\/em> that we\u2019re making available this week to any of you who can help with a donation to support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>Your donation extends the reach of this ministry. You make it possible for hundreds of thousands of people, every day, to connect with FamilyLife and receive practical biblical help and hope for their marriage and their family. That\u2019s what you\u2019re investing in when you make a donation to this ministry.<\/p>\n<p>You can donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. Again, when you do, request your copy of Sean McDowell\u2019s book, <em>Chasing Love: Sex,<\/em> <em>Love and Relationships in a Confused Culture<\/em>. We\u2019ll send it out to you, along with our thanks for your partnership with us in the ministry of the gospel and the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n<p>Now, I know that this is the time of year when a lot of church small groups are getting started up again. Maybe you\u2019re in a small group, where you guys are going through a book study or something. At FamilyLife, we\u2019ve got a number of small group resources that couples have found very helpful in pointing them toward God\u2019s design for marriage or for parenting. Recently, I did a series on my book, <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em>, a ten-part video series for couples to do in a small group setting. Dave and Ann Wilson have done <em>Vertical Marriage<\/em>. There are <em>many<\/em> of these small group studies available.<\/p>\n<p>You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to find out more about them. Right now, between now and February 18, if you use the promo code, \u201cNEWYEAR2022,\u201d you\u2019ll save 25 percent off any small group order. So go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, if you\u2019re looking for something related to marriage or parenting for your small group. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and check out what we\u2019ve got available and, again, use that promo code, \u201cNEWYEAR2022,\u201d to save 25 percent off.<\/p>\n<p>We hope you can be back with us, again, tomorrow when we\u2019re going to talk about one of the pandemics\/the hidden pandemics that we are facing in this culture that\u2019s not being talked about enough. That\u2019s the pandemic of pornography and the impact it\u2019s having on relationships, on marriages, on our soul. Ray Ortlund is going to be here with us for that. We hope you can be with us as well.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2022 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a><\/p>\n<p>1<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/307398","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=307398"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=307398"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=307398"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=307398"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=307398"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=307398"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=307398"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}