{"id":307382,"date":"2022-01-28T08:02:21","date_gmt":"2022-01-28T13:02:21","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/what-submission-is-and-isnt\/"},"modified":"2022-01-28T08:02:21","modified_gmt":"2022-01-28T13:02:21","slug":"what-submission-is-and-isnt","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/what-submission-is-and-isnt\/","title":{"rendered":"What Submission Is (and Isn&#8217;t)"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Wonder what submission is (and isn&#8217;t)? Clinical psychologist, author, and speaker Dr. Juli Slattery discusses how women can walk with men as partners in marriage.<br \/>\nShow Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tFind resources from this podcast at shop.familylife.com.<br \/>\n \tLearn more about The Nearly Complete Guide to Better Married Sex<br \/>\n \tFind more content and resources on the FamilyLife&#8217;s app!<br \/>\n \tHelp others find Familylife.\u00a0 Leave a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify.<br \/>\n \tCheck out all the Familylife&#8217;s on the FamilyLife Podcast Network.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Wonder what submission is (and isn&#8217;t)?  Clinical psychologist, author, and speaker Dr. Juli Slattery discusses how women can walk with men as partners in marriage.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2022-01-28.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:29","filesize":"25.16M","filesize_raw":"26386987","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2805,2820],"tags":[2877,4730],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[3388],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307382","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-gods-plan-for-marriage","category-lifelong-marriages","tag-marriage","tag-submission","cwp_profile-juli-slattery","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307382\/what-submission-is-and-isnt","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307382\/what-submission-is-and-isnt","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"XLEgRqpeMh\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/what-submission-is-and-isnt\/\">What Submission Is (and Isn&#8217;t)<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/what-submission-is-and-isnt\/embed\/#?secret=XLEgRqpeMh\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;What Submission Is (and Isn&#8217;t)&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"XLEgRqpeMh\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2022-01-28.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2022-01-28.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Okay, I\u2019m going to ask you a question that I\u2019m afraid to hear the answer. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Good; I like these kinds of questions. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Do you think I\u2019m submissive? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWelcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDo you think I\u2019m submissive? [Laughter] Do you think it\u2019s <em>easy<\/em> for me to be submissive? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> My pause tells you <em>everything<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, no! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, in many ways, we have to define submissive\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014which we can, maybe, do today; but you are a strong, strong, leading woman. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So you are saying, \u201c<em>No<\/em>\u201d? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, you have, obviously, submitted in many ways; and I hopefully, can say I\u2019ve submitted to you in many ways; but yes, it\u2019s not your first default. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> The first time we went to a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u2014and we\u2019ve been to several; and now, we\u2019ve been speaking at the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> for several decades\/over 30 years\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> By the way, if you don\u2019t know what a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> is, it is a FamilyLife marriage weekend,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014which is powerful, from Friday [night] to Sunday. You can go; just go to FamilyLifeToday.com and sign up for one. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It really has changed marriages\/thousands of marriages\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> No question. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014for the better. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut the first time I sat in this\u2014the women have a breakout session\u2014and so I looked at the notes. I thought, \u201cWe\u2019re going to talk about submission.\u201d I was a brand-new Christian. I sat in the back; and I crossed my arms, thinking, \u201cOh, here we go! This is that Jesus stuff. Every wife is supposed to submit.\u201d I remember thinking, \u201cI am not going to do that, because my mom was a doormat; and I will <em>not<\/em> be a doormat.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I <em>didn\u2019t<\/em> realize is that I had a very poor definition of submission. I had no idea what biblical submission was. So that was the first time I heard what biblical submission was; and I uncrossed my arms and I thought, \u201c<em>Oh<\/em>, I had no idea <em>that<\/em> is what it is.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, you guys, this is a big day. We\u2019re going to talk about: \u201cWhat is submission in the Bible?\u201d \u201cWhat should it look like?\u201d \u201cHow do we do it?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got Dr. Juli Slattery with us. I\u2019m not thinking this is your number-one topic you like talking about. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> No; nope. There are a lot of things I talk about in ministry work\u2014some of them are very controversial\u2014but <em>none<\/em> of them more so than this one. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Really? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Juli, what I love about you is you are authentic; you are wise; you are really smart; you\u2019ve done a lot of research; and you are theologically so sound. You love Jesus, and you want women to <em>understand<\/em> what our role is and the <em>power<\/em> we have in who God has called us to be. You do a really good job in your book, <em>Finding the Hero in Your Husband<\/em>, of addressing this, talking about what it is and what it isn\u2019t. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMaybe, we should start out with: \u201cHas that been easy for <em>you<\/em>?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> No; I think all of us come to this topic with a misunderstanding of what it means. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and baggage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes; I know so many Christian speakers, and writers, and authors, who are just ditching this whole concept now; because it\u2019s so unpopular. We can point to so many ways that it has been misused and abused within the larger church culture and in marriages; so they are like, \u201cThis is not a good teaching;\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cso let\u2019s ignore it,\u201d or \u201cLet\u2019s find a way to talk ourselves out of it. Maybe, that was a cultural thing.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut as I studied the Scriptures, I have become <em>convinced<\/em> that this is not something we should just chuck. It\u2019s something we need to grapple with because a Christian marriage is, first and foremost, a form of revelation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What does that mean? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> It means that God created marriage to reveal something about His nature; it reveals the nature of how God loves us\/His covenant love. So when we take that seriously, we can\u2019t just say, \u201cYou know what? This is just culturally not cool to talk about; it doesn\u2019t seem to fit anymore.\u201d We have to say, \u201cIf God created marriage to be this form of revelation, we have to be <em>very careful<\/em> about <em>muting<\/em> that revelation in any way.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is a sense to which we are ministering to one another\/teaching each other about the nature of God\u2019s love, not just to us, but to a watching world. Like that word, \u201ccovenant,\u201d most people don\u2019t even know what that means anymore\u2014they hear it\u2014and it\u2019s like, \u201cWhat is that?\u201d Because in our modern day, we think of marriage as any other relationship\u2014it\u2019s like a contract\u2014\u201cAs long as you are making me happy, I\u2019m in; but as soon as it gets too frustrating or disappointing, I\u2019m out.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut God\u2019s love for us is a covenant love: it\u2019s based on character; it\u2019s based on a promise; it\u2019s based on His faithfulness; it\u2019s a journey of intimate knowing. God created marriage to reflect all of these beautiful aspects of our relationship with Him. When we do marriage well, we are getting an echo of that\u2014that we enjoy ourselves\u2014but again, it\u2019s also a testimony to the world to say: \u201cThat\u2019s different. That is a different kind of love.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So, Juli, that is beautiful; it\u2019s a beautiful picture. Then you hear, \u201cWives, submit to your husbands.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s Ephesians 5:22. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> \u201cCan we just take our marker and cross that out?\u201d\u2014some people are saying; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> No; most men are like, \u201cThat\u2019s the only Bible verse I know.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> That\u2019s really sad. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It is sad, but there are men who know that; but they <em>don\u2019t<\/em> know: \u201cWhat does that mean? What does that mean: \u2018Wives, submit\u2026\u2019?\u201d So help us out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes; first of all, we have got to understand that God has given women, within marriage, a lot of power. I would say they actually have more power than men have. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, the men are saying, \u201cWhat do you <em>mean<\/em> by more power?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes; we see relationship much more nuanced than the average guy does; and because of that, we have this power to speak in a way that creates an atmosphere in the relationship that can be positive or negative. Every wife intuitively kind of knows when we are punishing our husbands, when we are manipulating them, we are controlling them\u2014because we are not happy; we don\u2019t feel safe; we\u2019re not getting our way\u2014so women have much more power than men in marriage to define the emotional climate. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019ll give you an example. Each of our sons is married; they are married to <em>amazing<\/em> women. I think it has been one of the joys of my heart to see how much they love their wives; and I am like, \u201cOh, man! These guys are so in love with these amazing women.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ve also watched these amazing women, with a look or a word\/just a couple words, and I can see like, \u201cOh, man! That just devastated him.\u201d I realize, \u201cOh, I used to hear that women have power; and now I am seeing it right in front of me.\u201d I remember thinking, \u201cI need to pray more for them, because they don\u2019t understand the power they carry. They can make a <em>hero<\/em> out of him\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201c<em>or<\/em> they can make him feel like he\u2019s <em>nothing<\/em>.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> <em>Right<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> There is a power there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> What we have to understand is, in this form of revelation of marriage, God is asking both the husband and wife to walk into their greatest fear: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tFor a man, his greatest fear is failing. So when He charges a man: \u201cHey, I want you to initiate; I want you to lead; I want you to step into doing something that doesn\u2019t feel comfortable, or you might not immediately succeed at\u2014to being a father, being a husband, being a leader\u201d\u2014He is asking the man to take a great risk. \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tHe is asking the woman to step back a little bit\u2014and not to control, not to manipulate\u2014but to trust. \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><p>\n\t\t\t\tSo within this form of revelation called marriage, we are both in this insecure place: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tThe natural tendency is either for the man to lead without sensitivity; and he becomes out of control\u2014\n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014domineering. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> \u2014yes; domineering\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \u2014and a woman doesn\u2019t use her power at all; she just kind of buries it. We get into\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 abusive types of situations. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tOr the man because passive; and the woman, in one way or another, takes over. Then, we\u2019ve kind of twisted the revelation of what it was supposed to be. \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What about the woman, who says, \u201cI want to be the one who is leading out there\u201d? What would say to them?\u2014like, \u201cI\u2019m better at it!\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m sitting beside that woman. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes; so I\u2019ll ask you a question: \u201cDid you really want to lead, or did you lead because you were afraid?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Look how wise she is; she knows the answer. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, that\u2019s a good counseling question: \u201cWhat would I be afraid of?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> You would be afraid that he\u2019ll lead you wrong\u2014that he is going to make a mistake\u2014you see his weaknesses, and so you trust yourself more than you trust him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; and I think you know what is even more?\u2014is not trusting the kids with him. I, maybe, could suffer under it\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014this isn\u2019t you, honey; but I\u2019m thinking of women\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Of course not. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Hypothetical; a friend. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014but when your kids\u2014now, that\u2019s when the momma bear rises up in women that think, \u201cNo, I will not let that happen; <em>I<\/em> will take charge.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> There are times to do that, but we do that so often when it is not necessary. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Let me give you an example. When our kids were little, Mike worked the 9-to-5 job; and I was working as a counselor a few nights a week. He would come home from work; we\u2019d high-five. He would be with the boys, and I would go work. I will have, throughout the day, really limited screen time for the boys. I made like a healthy dinner for them to warm up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I know where this is going. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Where\u2019s it going? What happens? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> He\u2019s going to have screen time and not healthy food. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Right; so he would order pizza, and put the kids in their high chairs; and it was watch a Disney<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> movie. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, every wife can relate to this illustration. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes; so I would come home at 10 o\u2019clock at night, and give him a hug, and look around, and recognize that he didn\u2019t eat the food I made. Then I would ask him, \u201cWhat did you guys do?\u201d He would tell me, and I would be so angry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Instead of saying to him: \u201cMan, you just worked a 9-to-5 job; you are exhausted. You\u2019re home with babies and toddlers.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cThanks for staying home with them.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes; and \u201cYou\u2019re the fun dad; I get that. This is your bonding time\u201d; I was like: \u201cI am so mad at him. I worked <em>so hard<\/em> to do this all day, and then he just blows it.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThose are the examples of how we, as women, have that momma bear rise up when it is completely unnecessary. What I had to learn is that I had to be more invested in what we were building, as a couple and as a family, than in the decision about whether they ate the chicken or the pizza. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> It took a long time to learn that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Me too. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> I\u2019m still learning. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; but let\u2019s get into\/let\u2019s talk about what submission is <em>not<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes; so first of all, submission is not obedience. I think sometimes people interchange these two words; but they are actually two different Greek words that mean two different things: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tObedience is this concept of: \u201cYou have authority over me. I\u2019m going to do what you say, because you know better.\u201d \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tWhereas submission is: \u201cI\u2019m yielding my power\u2014I could take over\u2014but I\u2019m <em>choosing<\/em> to yield it in a way that is for a higher goal, because I\u2019ve got a bigger vision of what we\u2019re headed toward.\u201d \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><p>\n\t\t\t\tThe difference, I think, is in an illustration. Let\u2019s say a father tells his eight-year-old kid, \u201cWe\u2019re going to go rob a bank. Here is what I need you to do: point the gun; demand the money.\u201d If they go to court, the kid is going to get leniency\u2014probably <em>nothing<\/em>\u2014because the father was <em>abusing<\/em> the authority, and the kid was being obedient. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, if a husband does that to his wife, then the woman is completely accountable for her actions. There is no such thing as obeying your husband. It\u2019s choosing how I am going to use my power: \u201cAm I going to use it to take over?\u201d or \u201cAm I going to use it to yield for a higher good, which sometimes I\u2019m going to put my foot down and say, \u2018No, I\u2019m not doing that.\u2019\u201d So that is one thing that submission is not. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>The second thing\u2014we\u2019ve already kind of fleshed this out a little bit\u2014but it\u2019s not the absence of power: it\u2019s not being a doormat; it\u2019s not being weak. When we see Jesus being submissive, when He was here on earth, He was not weak at all. He actually had great self-restraint, and great power, and great wisdom; but He could see that higher thing that meant: \u201cI am not going to do what I want in the moment; there is a vision of something <em>greater<\/em> here.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think those are some of the things that we need to say: \u201cThis is <em>not<\/em> what we\u2019re talking about when we look at the concept of submission.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So it is not following our husbands into anything that would be not biblical\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> No. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014or wise. It\u2019s not abuse\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014of any kind. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli: <\/strong>No.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> The question is: \u201cWhat is it?\u201d There is part of me that thinks, \u201cIf you\u2019re a woman, trying to be submissive to a man who is not good,\u201d\u2014it\u2019s easy to think of a man with goodwill\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cbut if your husband is <em>not<\/em> being a good man or a good husband, how do you use this submission? What does that look like?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Well, first, we need to understand that submission is under the authority of God. It\u2019s not so much that I am submitting to my husband, but I am submitting to the authority of God. He is the higher authority in all of this. So it\u2019s recognizing that, if my husband is doing things or asking me to participate in things that are against the heart of God, then I\u2019m going to obey God rather than submit to my husband. Actually, it is the <em>loving<\/em> thing to do\u2014to draw a boundary, to put your foot down, to create a crisis\u2014submission actually requires far more strength than taking over does. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf we look at 1 Peter, Chapter 3\u2014and we can unpack this a little bit\u2014but one of the things that Peter says, when he is talking about wives being submissive, and he talks about having a quiet spirit, notice he doesn\u2019t talk about having a quiet mouth but a quiet spirit. He says, \u201cBe like Sarah, who submitted to her husband and did not give way to fear.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I mentioned earlier that marriage calls both a man and a woman to step up into their greatest fear. Anytime we don\u2019t submit, it\u2019s because we give way to fear: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tWhen the weak woman doesn\u2019t submit, and she just becomes a doormat, that\u2019s not submission. She is giving way to her fear of: \u201cIf I speak up, he\u2019ll get mad. I don\u2019t know how to speak up. I don\u2019t know where to draw the boundary.\u201d \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tThe dominate woman also gives way to fear; because she is saying, \u201cI can\u2019t trust God here; I can\u2019t trust Him to work.\u201d \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s super wise; you know? I never thought of that before how it gives into fear. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes; and when we look at Sarah, even though she is an example, she was not a quiet woman. So when Peter is using that example, sometimes, we get in our mind that the submissive woman is the one who never says anything. Submission is not about whether or not your mouth is moving; it\u2019s about the posture of your heart. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> The amazing thing, as you go back to 1 Peter 3, is that, when a wife responds that way, I mean, one of the results is that you will win your husband. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019ll win husbands that do not believe. You\u2019ll win them over, without words, by the behavior of their wives. That behavior is <em>powerful<\/em>\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> It is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014in your man\u2019s life. It\u2019s a way that submission actually is a powerful tool of the Lord to win the soul of your man; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> It is <em>so<\/em> much more powerful than taking control. Again, I\u2019m not saying that there is not a time for a godly submissive woman to draw very clear boundaries\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> \u2014and to say, \u201cAbsolutely not! I\u2019m not doing this,\u201d\u2014there are times when separation are necessary, and calling in third parties, and not participating in something that is wrong\u2014that\u2019s all part of this\u2014but I think we\u2019ve lost that concept, because it\u2019s been portrayed as the husband is the strong one; the woman is the weak one. We\u2019re in essence saying, \u201cNo, the wife is the really powerful one; and if you are not careful, you will misuse your power.\u201d <br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> In your book, <em>Finding the Hero in Your Husband<\/em>, you give some examples of what this looks like. Talk about those. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> I use some examples of women, who are genuinely saying, \u201cHow does this play out in my marriage?\u201d Let\u2019s say, for example, you\u2019ve got a husband, who changes jobs every year; he keeps wanting to move. The wife is like: \u201cI am tired of this. It\u2019s not good for you; it\u2019s not good for us. It\u2019s not good for our kids.\u201d What does she do in that situation? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think the traditional way of seeing this would be she says nothing; she just encourages him and goes along with it. The bossy way of doing it would be: \u201cI\u2019m not moving again!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014 or \u201cYou can move; we\u2019re staying here.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. The submissive way\u2014the <em>strong<\/em> way of handling this\u2014is really to say, \u201cGod, there is something in the heart of my husband that is not satisfied. What is it? It is not the job that\u2019s the problem. It\u2019s not our moving that is the problem. It\u2019s that something in my husband is not content. Is it a fear of failure? Is it an inability to respect authority at work?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe loving wife in that situation would say, \u201cWe\u2019ve had nine jobs in ten years, and this will be the fifth time you have moved our family. That\u2019s not okay; something is wrong here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cSomething is deeper.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> \u201cBefore we take a new job that takes us out of state or causes disruption in our life, we need to go through some counseling and really figure out: \u2018What is underneath all of this?\u2019 If that is where God is going to lead us\u2014is to move again\u2014then I will be on board with that; but not until we go deeper with what is really happening here.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That doesn\u2019t sound very submissive, Juli. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> It absolutely is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You are saying <em>that<\/em> is being submissive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> It is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It is being wise too. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> But you notice the tone of my voice; you notice the words that I spoke. It wasn\u2019t out of anger. There is a time to deal with your anger before the Lord\u2014to pour it out before Him\u2014that may be you, yourself, talking to a mentor or a counselor, working through things like this <em>first<\/em> so that I can go with the spirit of wisdom and strength that says, \u201cI love you too much. I care about our family too much to continue down a road that really isn\u2019t helpful for any of us.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So what\u2019s that wife going to do if her husband responds with: \u201cYou know what? I don\u2019t have a problem. There is no deep-rooted thing here. I\u2019ve got a better job opportunity, and we\u2019re moving again\u201d? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes; I would say, \u201cHoney, I disagree. We\u2019ve been through this, and let\u2019s look at the history of where we were a year ago and before that. I don\u2019t think this job is going to meet the needs that you think it is. Even if you are <em>not<\/em> willing to go to counseling, I need to go; because I feel like I\u2019m just along for the ride on this. I\u2019m a partner in this too.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Dave, how would you respond to that if I came to you with that tone\/with that heart? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; if you said it the way Juli said it\u2014and you probably would because\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> After years of being married, <em>now<\/em>, I would. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> In a sense, I\u2019m sitting here, thinking, \u201cI\u2019m listening to two wise women, who have learned probably through mistakes\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cover decades.\u201d So yes, you are saying it in a way that a younger wife should listen and go, \u201cOh, that\u2019s how I say it!\u201d because you really are training wives to do it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs a husband, I would be like, \u201cHmm?\u201d I mean, there is a part of me that wants to say, \u201cI\u2019m good; I don\u2019t even want to sit down with a counselor or get third-party help\u201d; but if I heard it that way\u2014and it\u2019s so interesting\u2014it doesn\u2019t sound submissive; it sounds <em>powerful<\/em>\u2014but it\u2019s submission. It\u2019s beautiful how you phrased that; I would be like, \u201cThat\u2019s a wise thing. Before I make a decision, let\u2019s do that.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat would be a great way to move that marriage. One of the words you used, Juli\u2014that a man loves is: \u201cI\u2019m your partner; we\u2019re partners in this,\u201d\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014that\u2019s <em>equality<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yet, partners have submission\u2014there <em>has<\/em> to be in a team, in a company, in a church, in a marriage\u2014so it\u2019s a beautiful way to do it. I would say to a wife: \u201cYou were just given wisdom that applies, not just to a job change, but anything that you are feeling in your marriage. Juli just led you to do it.\u201d I would say: \u201cWouldn\u2019t it be interesting if there were some conversations tonight in bedrooms or in kitchens that were phrased a little bit like that? That could change a marriage.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The Bible is so clear that men and women share equal value, and worth, and dignity; and nothing about the biblical call to submission should negate that sense of value, and worth, and dignity. Women are daughters of the King, and husbands would be wise to remember that as we interact with our wives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut as we\u2019ve heard from Juli Slattery today, there are wise ways for a wife to submit; and then there are unhelpful ways for a wife to be submissive to her husband. Juli has written a book called <em>Finding the Hero in Your Husband: Embracing Your Power in Marriage<\/em>. It\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> book for wives to help you understand the significant role you play in helping your husband be the man God is calling him to be. It\u2019s a book we\u2019ve got in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. I would encourage you, as a wife, read this book. Maybe, read it with other wives; go through it together in a group study. I think you will find it very helpful, and I think it can have a significant impact in your marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, the book is called <em>Finding the Hero in Your Husband<\/em>. You can request your copy from us online at FamilyLifeToday.com or order by calling 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the website here is FamilyLifeToday.com. The number to call: 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBy the way, Juli Slattery recently sat down with Ron Deal, who leads FamilyLife Blended<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. The two of them have put together a five-part video series that is all about marital oneness\/about intimacy in marriage. It\u2019s called <em>The Nearly Complete Guide to Better Married Sex<\/em>. Again, this is an online course; there are five sessions. There are instructional videos, audio components, articles, projects for you to do together. The goal is to help you, as a husband and wife, experience all God has for you in this area of marital oneness and intimacy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can find out more about <em>The Nearly Complete Guide to Better Married Sex<\/em> when you go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com; there is a link there. All the information you need is available. I\u2019d encourage you to check this out. Keep in mind Valentine\u2019s Day is coming up; maybe, this is something you guys can do together to help prepare for Valentine\u2019s Day. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together in your local church this weekend, and I hope you can join us on Monday when we\u2019re going to hear about God\u2019s design for moms to experience joy, and fulfillment, and life in being a mom; but first, you\u2019ve got to learn what rules to get rid of. Maggie Combs will be here to help with that. I hope you can be here as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back Monday for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2022 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:27:29"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["25.16M"],"filesize_raw":["26386987"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-307382.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-307382.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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what submission is (and isn't)? Clinical psychologist, author, and speaker Dr. Juli Slattery discusses how women can walk with men as partners in marriage.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2022-01-28.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Okay, I\u2019m going to ask you a question that I\u2019m afraid to hear the answer. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Good; I like these kinds of questions. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Do you think I\u2019m submissive? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWelcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDo you think I\u2019m submissive? [Laughter] Do you think it\u2019s <em>easy<\/em> for me to be submissive? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> My pause tells you <em>everything<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, no! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, in many ways, we have to define submissive\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014which we can, maybe, do today; but you are a strong, strong, leading woman. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So you are saying, \u201c<em>No<\/em>\u201d? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, you have, obviously, submitted in many ways; and I hopefully, can say I\u2019ve submitted to you in many ways; but yes, it\u2019s not your first default. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> The first time we went to a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u2014and we\u2019ve been to several; and now, we\u2019ve been speaking at the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> for several decades\/over 30 years\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> By the way, if you don\u2019t know what a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> is, it is a FamilyLife marriage weekend,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014which is powerful, from Friday [night] to Sunday. You can go; just go to FamilyLifeToday.com and sign up for one. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It really has changed marriages\/thousands of marriages\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> No question. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014for the better. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut the first time I sat in this\u2014the women have a breakout session\u2014and so I looked at the notes. I thought, \u201cWe\u2019re going to talk about submission.\u201d I was a brand-new Christian. I sat in the back; and I crossed my arms, thinking, \u201cOh, here we go! This is that Jesus stuff. Every wife is supposed to submit.\u201d I remember thinking, \u201cI am not going to do that, because my mom was a doormat; and I will <em>not<\/em> be a doormat.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I <em>didn\u2019t<\/em> realize is that I had a very poor definition of submission. I had no idea what biblical submission was. So that was the first time I heard what biblical submission was; and I uncrossed my arms and I thought, \u201c<em>Oh<\/em>, I had no idea <em>that<\/em> is what it is.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, you guys, this is a big day. We\u2019re going to talk about: \u201cWhat is submission in the Bible?\u201d \u201cWhat should it look like?\u201d \u201cHow do we do it?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got Dr. Juli Slattery with us. I\u2019m not thinking this is your number-one topic you like talking about. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> No; nope. There are a lot of things I talk about in ministry work\u2014some of them are very controversial\u2014but <em>none<\/em> of them more so than this one. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Really? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Juli, what I love about you is you are authentic; you are wise; you are really smart; you\u2019ve done a lot of research; and you are theologically so sound. You love Jesus, and you want women to <em>understand<\/em> what our role is and the <em>power<\/em> we have in who God has called us to be. You do a really good job in your book, <em>Finding the Hero in Your Husband<\/em>, of addressing this, talking about what it is and what it isn\u2019t. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMaybe, we should start out with: \u201cHas that been easy for <em>you<\/em>?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> No; I think all of us come to this topic with a misunderstanding of what it means. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and baggage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes; I know so many Christian speakers, and writers, and authors, who are just ditching this whole concept now; because it\u2019s so unpopular. We can point to so many ways that it has been misused and abused within the larger church culture and in marriages; so they are like, \u201cThis is not a good teaching;\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cso let\u2019s ignore it,\u201d or \u201cLet\u2019s find a way to talk ourselves out of it. Maybe, that was a cultural thing.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut as I studied the Scriptures, I have become <em>convinced<\/em> that this is not something we should just chuck. It\u2019s something we need to grapple with because a Christian marriage is, first and foremost, a form of revelation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What does that mean? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> It means that God created marriage to reveal something about His nature; it reveals the nature of how God loves us\/His covenant love. So when we take that seriously, we can\u2019t just say, \u201cYou know what? This is just culturally not cool to talk about; it doesn\u2019t seem to fit anymore.\u201d We have to say, \u201cIf God created marriage to be this form of revelation, we have to be <em>very careful<\/em> about <em>muting<\/em> that revelation in any way.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is a sense to which we are ministering to one another\/teaching each other about the nature of God\u2019s love, not just to us, but to a watching world. Like that word, \u201ccovenant,\u201d most people don\u2019t even know what that means anymore\u2014they hear it\u2014and it\u2019s like, \u201cWhat is that?\u201d Because in our modern day, we think of marriage as any other relationship\u2014it\u2019s like a contract\u2014\u201cAs long as you are making me happy, I\u2019m in; but as soon as it gets too frustrating or disappointing, I\u2019m out.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut God\u2019s love for us is a covenant love: it\u2019s based on character; it\u2019s based on a promise; it\u2019s based on His faithfulness; it\u2019s a journey of intimate knowing. God created marriage to reflect all of these beautiful aspects of our relationship with Him. When we do marriage well, we are getting an echo of that\u2014that we enjoy ourselves\u2014but again, it\u2019s also a testimony to the world to say: \u201cThat\u2019s different. That is a different kind of love.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So, Juli, that is beautiful; it\u2019s a beautiful picture. Then you hear, \u201cWives, submit to your husbands.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s Ephesians 5:22. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> \u201cCan we just take our marker and cross that out?\u201d\u2014some people are saying; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> No; most men are like, \u201cThat\u2019s the only Bible verse I know.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> That\u2019s really sad. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It is sad, but there are men who know that; but they <em>don\u2019t<\/em> know: \u201cWhat does that mean? What does that mean: \u2018Wives, submit\u2026\u2019?\u201d So help us out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes; first of all, we have got to understand that God has given women, within marriage, a lot of power. I would say they actually have more power than men have. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, the men are saying, \u201cWhat do you <em>mean<\/em> by more power?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes; we see relationship much more nuanced than the average guy does; and because of that, we have this power to speak in a way that creates an atmosphere in the relationship that can be positive or negative. Every wife intuitively kind of knows when we are punishing our husbands, when we are manipulating them, we are controlling them\u2014because we are not happy; we don\u2019t feel safe; we\u2019re not getting our way\u2014so women have much more power than men in marriage to define the emotional climate. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019ll give you an example. Each of our sons is married; they are married to <em>amazing<\/em> women. I think it has been one of the joys of my heart to see how much they love their wives; and I am like, \u201cOh, man! These guys are so in love with these amazing women.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ve also watched these amazing women, with a look or a word\/just a couple words, and I can see like, \u201cOh, man! That just devastated him.\u201d I realize, \u201cOh, I used to hear that women have power; and now I am seeing it right in front of me.\u201d I remember thinking, \u201cI need to pray more for them, because they don\u2019t understand the power they carry. They can make a <em>hero<\/em> out of him\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201c<em>or<\/em> they can make him feel like he\u2019s <em>nothing<\/em>.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> <em>Right<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> There is a power there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> What we have to understand is, in this form of revelation of marriage, God is asking both the husband and wife to walk into their greatest fear: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tFor a man, his greatest fear is failing. So when He charges a man: \u201cHey, I want you to initiate; I want you to lead; I want you to step into doing something that doesn\u2019t feel comfortable, or you might not immediately succeed at\u2014to being a father, being a husband, being a leader\u201d\u2014He is asking the man to take a great risk. \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tHe is asking the woman to step back a little bit\u2014and not to control, not to manipulate\u2014but to trust. \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><p>\n\t\t\t\tSo within this form of revelation called marriage, we are both in this insecure place: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tThe natural tendency is either for the man to lead without sensitivity; and he becomes out of control\u2014\n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014domineering. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> \u2014yes; domineering\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \u2014and a woman doesn\u2019t use her power at all; she just kind of buries it. We get into\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 abusive types of situations. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tOr the man because passive; and the woman, in one way or another, takes over. Then, we\u2019ve kind of twisted the revelation of what it was supposed to be. \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What about the woman, who says, \u201cI want to be the one who is leading out there\u201d? What would say to them?\u2014like, \u201cI\u2019m better at it!\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m sitting beside that woman. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes; so I\u2019ll ask you a question: \u201cDid you really want to lead, or did you lead because you were afraid?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Look how wise she is; she knows the answer. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, that\u2019s a good counseling question: \u201cWhat would I be afraid of?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> You would be afraid that he\u2019ll lead you wrong\u2014that he is going to make a mistake\u2014you see his weaknesses, and so you trust yourself more than you trust him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; and I think you know what is even more?\u2014is not trusting the kids with him. I, maybe, could suffer under it\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014this isn\u2019t you, honey; but I\u2019m thinking of women\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Of course not. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Hypothetical; a friend. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014but when your kids\u2014now, that\u2019s when the momma bear rises up in women that think, \u201cNo, I will not let that happen; <em>I<\/em> will take charge.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> There are times to do that, but we do that so often when it is not necessary. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Let me give you an example. When our kids were little, Mike worked the 9-to-5 job; and I was working as a counselor a few nights a week. He would come home from work; we\u2019d high-five. He would be with the boys, and I would go work. I will have, throughout the day, really limited screen time for the boys. I made like a healthy dinner for them to warm up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I know where this is going. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Where\u2019s it going? What happens? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> He\u2019s going to have screen time and not healthy food. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Right; so he would order pizza, and put the kids in their high chairs; and it was watch a Disney<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> movie. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, every wife can relate to this illustration. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes; so I would come home at 10 o\u2019clock at night, and give him a hug, and look around, and recognize that he didn\u2019t eat the food I made. Then I would ask him, \u201cWhat did you guys do?\u201d He would tell me, and I would be so angry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Instead of saying to him: \u201cMan, you just worked a 9-to-5 job; you are exhausted. You\u2019re home with babies and toddlers.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cThanks for staying home with them.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes; and \u201cYou\u2019re the fun dad; I get that. This is your bonding time\u201d; I was like: \u201cI am so mad at him. I worked <em>so hard<\/em> to do this all day, and then he just blows it.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThose are the examples of how we, as women, have that momma bear rise up when it is completely unnecessary. What I had to learn is that I had to be more invested in what we were building, as a couple and as a family, than in the decision about whether they ate the chicken or the pizza. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> It took a long time to learn that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Me too. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> I\u2019m still learning. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; but let\u2019s get into\/let\u2019s talk about what submission is <em>not<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes; so first of all, submission is not obedience. I think sometimes people interchange these two words; but they are actually two different Greek words that mean two different things: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tObedience is this concept of: \u201cYou have authority over me. I\u2019m going to do what you say, because you know better.\u201d \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tWhereas submission is: \u201cI\u2019m yielding my power\u2014I could take over\u2014but I\u2019m <em>choosing<\/em> to yield it in a way that is for a higher goal, because I\u2019ve got a bigger vision of what we\u2019re headed toward.\u201d \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><p>\n\t\t\t\tThe difference, I think, is in an illustration. Let\u2019s say a father tells his eight-year-old kid, \u201cWe\u2019re going to go rob a bank. Here is what I need you to do: point the gun; demand the money.\u201d If they go to court, the kid is going to get leniency\u2014probably <em>nothing<\/em>\u2014because the father was <em>abusing<\/em> the authority, and the kid was being obedient. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, if a husband does that to his wife, then the woman is completely accountable for her actions. There is no such thing as obeying your husband. It\u2019s choosing how I am going to use my power: \u201cAm I going to use it to take over?\u201d or \u201cAm I going to use it to yield for a higher good, which sometimes I\u2019m going to put my foot down and say, \u2018No, I\u2019m not doing that.\u2019\u201d So that is one thing that submission is not. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>The second thing\u2014we\u2019ve already kind of fleshed this out a little bit\u2014but it\u2019s not the absence of power: it\u2019s not being a doormat; it\u2019s not being weak. When we see Jesus being submissive, when He was here on earth, He was not weak at all. He actually had great self-restraint, and great power, and great wisdom; but He could see that higher thing that meant: \u201cI am not going to do what I want in the moment; there is a vision of something <em>greater<\/em> here.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think those are some of the things that we need to say: \u201cThis is <em>not<\/em> what we\u2019re talking about when we look at the concept of submission.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So it is not following our husbands into anything that would be not biblical\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> No. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014or wise. It\u2019s not abuse\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014of any kind. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli: <\/strong>No.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> The question is: \u201cWhat is it?\u201d There is part of me that thinks, \u201cIf you\u2019re a woman, trying to be submissive to a man who is not good,\u201d\u2014it\u2019s easy to think of a man with goodwill\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cbut if your husband is <em>not<\/em> being a good man or a good husband, how do you use this submission? What does that look like?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Well, first, we need to understand that submission is under the authority of God. It\u2019s not so much that I am submitting to my husband, but I am submitting to the authority of God. He is the higher authority in all of this. So it\u2019s recognizing that, if my husband is doing things or asking me to participate in things that are against the heart of God, then I\u2019m going to obey God rather than submit to my husband. Actually, it is the <em>loving<\/em> thing to do\u2014to draw a boundary, to put your foot down, to create a crisis\u2014submission actually requires far more strength than taking over does. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf we look at 1 Peter, Chapter 3\u2014and we can unpack this a little bit\u2014but one of the things that Peter says, when he is talking about wives being submissive, and he talks about having a quiet spirit, notice he doesn\u2019t talk about having a quiet mouth but a quiet spirit. He says, \u201cBe like Sarah, who submitted to her husband and did not give way to fear.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I mentioned earlier that marriage calls both a man and a woman to step up into their greatest fear. Anytime we don\u2019t submit, it\u2019s because we give way to fear: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tWhen the weak woman doesn\u2019t submit, and she just becomes a doormat, that\u2019s not submission. She is giving way to her fear of: \u201cIf I speak up, he\u2019ll get mad. I don\u2019t know how to speak up. I don\u2019t know where to draw the boundary.\u201d \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tThe dominate woman also gives way to fear; because she is saying, \u201cI can\u2019t trust God here; I can\u2019t trust Him to work.\u201d \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s super wise; you know? I never thought of that before how it gives into fear. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes; and when we look at Sarah, even though she is an example, she was not a quiet woman. So when Peter is using that example, sometimes, we get in our mind that the submissive woman is the one who never says anything. Submission is not about whether or not your mouth is moving; it\u2019s about the posture of your heart. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> The amazing thing, as you go back to 1 Peter 3, is that, when a wife responds that way, I mean, one of the results is that you will win your husband. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019ll win husbands that do not believe. You\u2019ll win them over, without words, by the behavior of their wives. That behavior is <em>powerful<\/em>\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> It is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014in your man\u2019s life. It\u2019s a way that submission actually is a powerful tool of the Lord to win the soul of your man; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> It is <em>so<\/em> much more powerful than taking control. Again, I\u2019m not saying that there is not a time for a godly submissive woman to draw very clear boundaries\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> \u2014and to say, \u201cAbsolutely not! I\u2019m not doing this,\u201d\u2014there are times when separation are necessary, and calling in third parties, and not participating in something that is wrong\u2014that\u2019s all part of this\u2014but I think we\u2019ve lost that concept, because it\u2019s been portrayed as the husband is the strong one; the woman is the weak one. We\u2019re in essence saying, \u201cNo, the wife is the really powerful one; and if you are not careful, you will misuse your power.\u201d <br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> In your book, <em>Finding the Hero in Your Husband<\/em>, you give some examples of what this looks like. Talk about those. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> I use some examples of women, who are genuinely saying, \u201cHow does this play out in my marriage?\u201d Let\u2019s say, for example, you\u2019ve got a husband, who changes jobs every year; he keeps wanting to move. The wife is like: \u201cI am tired of this. It\u2019s not good for you; it\u2019s not good for us. It\u2019s not good for our kids.\u201d What does she do in that situation? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think the traditional way of seeing this would be she says nothing; she just encourages him and goes along with it. The bossy way of doing it would be: \u201cI\u2019m not moving again!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014 or \u201cYou can move; we\u2019re staying here.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. The submissive way\u2014the <em>strong<\/em> way of handling this\u2014is really to say, \u201cGod, there is something in the heart of my husband that is not satisfied. What is it? It is not the job that\u2019s the problem. It\u2019s not our moving that is the problem. It\u2019s that something in my husband is not content. Is it a fear of failure? Is it an inability to respect authority at work?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe loving wife in that situation would say, \u201cWe\u2019ve had nine jobs in ten years, and this will be the fifth time you have moved our family. That\u2019s not okay; something is wrong here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cSomething is deeper.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> \u201cBefore we take a new job that takes us out of state or causes disruption in our life, we need to go through some counseling and really figure out: \u2018What is underneath all of this?\u2019 If that is where God is going to lead us\u2014is to move again\u2014then I will be on board with that; but not until we go deeper with what is really happening here.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That doesn\u2019t sound very submissive, Juli. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> It absolutely is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You are saying <em>that<\/em> is being submissive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> It is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It is being wise too. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> But you notice the tone of my voice; you notice the words that I spoke. It wasn\u2019t out of anger. There is a time to deal with your anger before the Lord\u2014to pour it out before Him\u2014that may be you, yourself, talking to a mentor or a counselor, working through things like this <em>first<\/em> so that I can go with the spirit of wisdom and strength that says, \u201cI love you too much. I care about our family too much to continue down a road that really isn\u2019t helpful for any of us.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So what\u2019s that wife going to do if her husband responds with: \u201cYou know what? I don\u2019t have a problem. There is no deep-rooted thing here. I\u2019ve got a better job opportunity, and we\u2019re moving again\u201d? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes; I would say, \u201cHoney, I disagree. We\u2019ve been through this, and let\u2019s look at the history of where we were a year ago and before that. I don\u2019t think this job is going to meet the needs that you think it is. Even if you are <em>not<\/em> willing to go to counseling, I need to go; because I feel like I\u2019m just along for the ride on this. I\u2019m a partner in this too.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Dave, how would you respond to that if I came to you with that tone\/with that heart? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; if you said it the way Juli said it\u2014and you probably would because\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> After years of being married, <em>now<\/em>, I would. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> In a sense, I\u2019m sitting here, thinking, \u201cI\u2019m listening to two wise women, who have learned probably through mistakes\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cover decades.\u201d So yes, you are saying it in a way that a younger wife should listen and go, \u201cOh, that\u2019s how I say it!\u201d because you really are training wives to do it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs a husband, I would be like, \u201cHmm?\u201d I mean, there is a part of me that wants to say, \u201cI\u2019m good; I don\u2019t even want to sit down with a counselor or get third-party help\u201d; but if I heard it that way\u2014and it\u2019s so interesting\u2014it doesn\u2019t sound submissive; it sounds <em>powerful<\/em>\u2014but it\u2019s submission. It\u2019s beautiful how you phrased that; I would be like, \u201cThat\u2019s a wise thing. Before I make a decision, let\u2019s do that.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat would be a great way to move that marriage. One of the words you used, Juli\u2014that a man loves is: \u201cI\u2019m your partner; we\u2019re partners in this,\u201d\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014that\u2019s <em>equality<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Juli:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yet, partners have submission\u2014there <em>has<\/em> to be in a team, in a company, in a church, in a marriage\u2014so it\u2019s a beautiful way to do it. I would say to a wife: \u201cYou were just given wisdom that applies, not just to a job change, but anything that you are feeling in your marriage. Juli just led you to do it.\u201d I would say: \u201cWouldn\u2019t it be interesting if there were some conversations tonight in bedrooms or in kitchens that were phrased a little bit like that? That could change a marriage.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The Bible is so clear that men and women share equal value, and worth, and dignity; and nothing about the biblical call to submission should negate that sense of value, and worth, and dignity. Women are daughters of the King, and husbands would be wise to remember that as we interact with our wives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut as we\u2019ve heard from Juli Slattery today, there are wise ways for a wife to submit; and then there are unhelpful ways for a wife to be submissive to her husband. Juli has written a book called <em>Finding the Hero in Your Husband: Embracing Your Power in Marriage<\/em>. It\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> book for wives to help you understand the significant role you play in helping your husband be the man God is calling him to be. It\u2019s a book we\u2019ve got in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. I would encourage you, as a wife, read this book. Maybe, read it with other wives; go through it together in a group study. I think you will find it very helpful, and I think it can have a significant impact in your marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, the book is called <em>Finding the Hero in Your Husband<\/em>. You can request your copy from us online at FamilyLifeToday.com or order by calling 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the website here is FamilyLifeToday.com. The number to call: 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBy the way, Juli Slattery recently sat down with Ron Deal, who leads FamilyLife Blended<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. The two of them have put together a five-part video series that is all about marital oneness\/about intimacy in marriage. It\u2019s called <em>The Nearly Complete Guide to Better Married Sex<\/em>. Again, this is an online course; there are five sessions. There are instructional videos, audio components, articles, projects for you to do together. The goal is to help you, as a husband and wife, experience all God has for you in this area of marital oneness and intimacy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can find out more about <em>The Nearly Complete Guide to Better Married Sex<\/em> when you go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com; there is a link there. All the information you need is available. I\u2019d encourage you to check this out. Keep in mind Valentine\u2019s Day is coming up; maybe, this is something you guys can do together to help prepare for Valentine\u2019s Day. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together in your local church this weekend, and I hope you can join us on Monday when we\u2019re going to hear about God\u2019s design for moms to experience joy, and fulfillment, and life in being a mom; but first, you\u2019ve got to learn what rules to get rid of. Maggie Combs will be here to help with that. I hope you can be here as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back Monday for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2022 FamilyLife. 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