{"id":307351,"date":"2021-12-31T08:03:09","date_gmt":"2021-12-31T13:03:09","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/pain-in-life-and-understanding-why\/"},"modified":"2021-12-31T08:03:09","modified_gmt":"2021-12-31T13:03:09","slug":"pain-in-life-and-understanding-why","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/pain-in-life-and-understanding-why\/","title":{"rendered":"Pain In Life and Understanding Why"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Why do I experience pain in life?  Dane Ortlund offers answers to the hard, unavoidable reality that we as humans face in hurt and suffering.<\/p>\n<p>Show Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tFind resources from this podcast at shop.familylife.com.<br \/>\n \tDownload FamilyLife&#8217;s new app!<br \/>\n \tCheck out all that&#8217;s available on the FamilyLife Podcast Network.<\/p>\n<p>Families have an urgent need for God&#8217;s Word right now. You can help shape stronger families and restore others in crisis right now. Click here to have your gift matched dollar for dollar until midnight on December 31.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Why do I experience pain in life?  Dane Ortlund offers answers to the hard, unavoidable reality that we as humans face in hurt and suffering.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-12-31.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:31:13","filesize":"28.58M","filesize_raw":"29969316","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822],"tags":[6362,2706],"podcast_series":[8499],"cwp_profile":[3628],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307351","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","tag-pain","tag-spiritual-growth","podcast_series-deeper","cwp_profile-dane-ortlund","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307351\/pain-in-life-and-understanding-why","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307351\/pain-in-life-and-understanding-why","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"WHCpxG2iyn\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/pain-in-life-and-understanding-why\/\">Pain In Life and Understanding Why<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/pain-in-life-and-understanding-why\/embed\/#?secret=WHCpxG2iyn\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Pain In Life and Understanding Why&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"WHCpxG2iyn\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Why do I experience pain in life? Dane Ortlund offers answers to the hard, unavoidable reality that we as humans face in hurt and suffering.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-12-31.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, before we jump in our interview today, I\u2019ve got to tell you I was speaking in Iowa a few weeks ago at a marriage conference. This couple came up, and it was so cool; because they said, \u201cYou don\u2019t know us, but we feel like we know you and Ann. We listen to you <em>every single day<\/em> on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u201d She starts tearing up; she can\u2019t even talk. I look at her, and I\u2019m like, \u201cWhat?\u201d She\u2019s like, \u201cI just can\u2019t tell you how <em>you<\/em> have saved our marriage,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, that is so cool. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014meaning <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> and the content that we bring every day. It was so cool to see them and <em>feel<\/em> their marriage be saved by what we do right here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019ve had that same experience. It\u2019s so funny when people say, \u201cI feel like I\u2019m working out with you every day,\u201d\u2014you know? [Laughter]\u2014because they are listening as they are working out. But that same thing of: \u201cThe culture is pulling us away from God\u201d\u2014but they are saying\u2014\u201cNo, you are taking us back to knowing what it is to raise a family and have a marriage based on biblical principles.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I just want to say, \u201cThank you.\u201d There are many listeners, who have given financially, to make sure that this kind of ministry can happen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMaybe, you\u2019ve never given. You didn\u2019t even know we are a donor-supported ministry; and today is the last day of 2021, and it\u2019s your last opportunity to make a gift that is tax-deductible for 2021. If you make a gift today, here is incredible news: that gift will be matched, up to $2 million. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And we\u2019ll send you a gift as well. We\u2019re going to send you a devotional,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014which is amazing. This is so important; we really <em>need<\/em> you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And 2022 needs you because we won\u2019t be able to continue unless people, like you say, \u201cI\u2019m in. I want to help keep changing marriages like that.\u201d Here is how you do it: just go to FamilyLifeToday.com; you can make your donation there, or call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Man, our prayer is that you join in with us\/be partners with us and watch God do, what He has done already in 2021, in the next year and beyond. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDescribe a <em>painful<\/em> moment in your life or season that led to growth. [Laughter] Hopefully, you\u2019re not going to say, \u201cMy marriage to you!\u201d to me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Every season, I feel like there have been painful moments that have led to growth. I mean, the most <em>obvious<\/em> would be our marriage in terms of\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You are going to say our marriage! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I totally am! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Describe a painful moment in your life that led to growth. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I mean, the most obvious would be our marriage; because I think that we have both been at the bottom of kind of the pit, in terms of feeling like we were desperate\/we were losing our marriage. And yet\u2014that \u201cBut God\u201d-moment\u2014<em>but God<\/em> has lifted us up, saved us\/saved our marriage. I would say some of the most spiritual growth and the deepest times with Jesus were in those moments. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; in those moments, I know I felt, \u201cWhere are You, God? Why are you letting this happen? This is <em>not<\/em> going to be helpful.\u201d Yet, we\u2019ve learned God often uses our pain to grow us up to Him. We\u2019ve learned that; we\u2019re going to talk about that today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s going to be fun. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got Dane Ortlund back with us. Dane, welcome back to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Thanks, Dave and Ann. Good to talk with you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We know you as a pastor of Naperville Presbyterian in Naperville, Illinois. We were <em>just<\/em> there,\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, yes; we were just there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014just a beautiful suburb of Chicago. You\u2019re married with five kids; you\u2019ve written several books. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis book that you\u2019ve written called <em>Deeper: Real Change for Real Sinners<\/em> is <em>fascinating<\/em> about how we really grow spiritually. We\u2019ve spent a little time talking about that; but one of the things you get into in the book is what we just brought up: this idea of how God uses pain or hard things in our life to actually put us on a path of growth. Talk about that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Well, we can\u2019t read long in the New Testament without coming upon this theme. The first thing to say here is, when we talk about anguish and pain in the Christian life\u2014this is not for like five or ten percent of believers; this is for <em>all<\/em> of us\u2014just in its own unique manifestation for each one of us. Pain is simply\u2014I mean, we\u2019re talking about it in <em>Deeper<\/em> as \u201cHow do we grow as believers?\u201d\u2014pain is simply one unavoidable, key ingredient that the Divine Chef uses in causing us to grow and flourish as believers. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That is so depressing, Dane, honestly. [Laughter] We all hear that; and we get gripped with fear, \u201cOh, it\u2019s around the corner. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> I know; I know! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cIt\u2019s coming.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut even on our honeymoon, this is\u2014I mean, Dave and I have talked about this before\u2014but in the <em>middle<\/em> of the night, I woke up. I get on my knees, and I have this <em>sense<\/em> of God just pressing in on my heart to start reading James, the book of James. I\u2019m so new in my faith\u2014I couldn\u2019t have categorized at that time, \u201cOh, the book of James is about suffering or trials,\u201d\u2014I would have never been able to say that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, I just pulled it up\u2014James 1, verse 2\u2014\u201cCount it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWhy are we reading James for? We\u2019re on our <em>honeymoon<\/em>\u201d; you know?! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut Dane, I would <em>love<\/em> your perspective on this as we talk about how God uses trials and pain in our life. I\u2019ll read it, and then you can just comment: \u201cCount it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Well, I remember going to the beach of Southern California, Corona del Mar, with my family, growing up. We\u2019d wade out\u2014I was six, eight, ten years old\u2014wade out into the Pacific Ocean. The waves would start coming up at us. At first, they\u2019d hit your ankles; then they\u2019d hit your knees\u2014and you keep walking out\u2014then it\u2019s hitting your waist, and you\u2019re kind of destabilized. [Laughter] Then you keep going out\u2014the Pacific is <em>cold<\/em>; it\u2019s not like the Atlantic\u2014you keep walking out there. Pretty soon, if you keep going, unavoidably, a wave will come along that goes over your head; throws you; you\u2019re tumbling all over, upside down, totally discombobulated\/disoriented. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat is actually what happens to us in <em>life<\/em>. We have garden variety\u2014ankle-high, knee-high, waist-high\u2014pain. What happens is: God loves us too much to let us only <em>remain<\/em> the level of depth that we will have if that\u2019s the <em>only<\/em> kind of pain we ever have. But He wants, as James 1 says, He wants the <em>testing<\/em> of your faith to produce <em>steadfastness<\/em> so, when that over-the-head wave comes, then we are forced to, either get cold and cynical and abandon faith, or to <em>believe<\/em> what we always said we believed but have never truly had to bank on it. In other words, our professed belief and our <em>actual<\/em> belief have to come together or move further apart. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s what suffering is doing: it\u2019s making us say, \u201cDo I actually believe what I say I believe theologically?\u201d At that fork in the road, the Lord\u2014in His fatherly, tender, rugged kindness\u2014is pulling us into depth with Him and giving us steadfastness so that we are not lacking anything but are perfect and complete. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Dane, have you experienced that? Have you gone through that? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> There have been some episodes\/a few episodes in my life, Ann, where I believe that I have. But I also suspect\u2014and maybe, this is my own weirdness\u2014I suspect the biggest one is probably out ahead of me. My wife and I have walked through a valley or two, together, that the Lord has enabled us to weather. Those have deepened us\u2014but I\u2019m just being real honest here, guys\u2014I don\u2019t know if I\u2019ve ever experienced something that has been like a Job-like over-the-head kind of wave. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> How would you sit with a dad and mom\u2014which I\u2019ve had to do a few times, not ten or twenty times\u2014but as they\u2019ve lost their child. Then you come to a verse like, \u201cConsider it all joy, my brothers.\u201d You know? You think, \u201cJoy?! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes; right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cIs there joy in the middle of a valley, and how do we find that?\u201d That would be the question I think a lot of us would say: \u201cHow do we find joy?\u201d and \u201cIs he talking about <em>happy<\/em>?\u201d Give us a little perspective on that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Oh, man; you\u2019ve been a pastor for many years, Dave, and you have walked through this far more than I have. I do remember, a few months ago, doing a funeral with two tiny little coffins for children, who had perished. Here are a few thoughts that come to mind, guys: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNumber one: \u201cThis is real life; so let\u2019s go deep with God now; so that, when that wave comes, we can weather it by His grace.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThought number two: The Bible says, \u201cWeep with those who weep.\u201d The Bible <em>never<\/em> says, \u201cProvide theological answers for those who weep.\u201d Romans 8:28 is true: \u201cGod works all things for good for those who are called according to his purpose\u201d; but Romans 12:15 says, \u201cWeep with those who weep.\u201d We do Romans 12:15 before we say Romans 8:28 to someone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> If we actually try to <em>tell<\/em> them answers\u2014even <em>true<\/em> answers\u2014when the pain is <em>raw<\/em>, we are actually being like Job\u2019s friends\/his <em>miserable<\/em> comforters; and we\u2019re being theoretical about it. We are\u2014what we\u2019re doing is <em>exacerbating<\/em> the pain\u2014we\u2019re actually making it worse. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut when we\u2014when my wife and I walked through a tragedy in August of 2018\u2014our pastor walked into the hospital room, and he <em>didn\u2019t say a word<\/em>; and he was being a good pastor. He <em>wept<\/em> with those who were weeping. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I have a good friend, who has two teenage sons, who are really, really struggling with anxiety, depression\/suicidal ideation. She\u2019s actually been reading the book of Job, because she feels like she\u2019s <em>in it<\/em>. I sent her this quote from your book; it says: \u201cOur natural instincts tell us that the way forward is\u201d\u2014in the Christian life\u2014\u201cby avoiding pain; but the New Testament tells us the pain is a means, not an obstacle, to deepening in our Christian maturity.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI thought, \u201cMan, that\u2019s so good.\u201d It\u2019s so <em>true<\/em> because, of course, it is natural to want to avoid it\u2014we hate pain\u2014we don\u2019t want to go through it. Talk about that <em>deepening<\/em> part, of where it can take us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> You know, the Lord Jesus Christ, Himself, didn\u2019t go from life to resurrection glory. He went from life, down into the ignominy\/the shame of suffering, and rejection, and death up into resurrection glory. The New Testament teaches in Romans, Ephesians, and Galatians that actually we, who are united to Christ, have the same pattern. We share in His sufferings in that kind of way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSecond Corinthians 4 talks about this, too; the way we experience resurrection power\/life in our mortal existence is by\u2014not by avoiding pain but by receiving it, sent from God\u2014receiving it, embracing it, turning it into faith, walking by faith not by sight\u2014saying, \u201cOkay, Lord, I\u2019m all in. I\u2019m Yours. I\u2019m <em>never<\/em> going to suffer hell and condemnation the way the Lord Jesus did.\u201d Any pain we ever suffer isn\u2019t <em>that<\/em>\u2014the ultimate pain\u2014<em>He went through that<\/em> on our behalf.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOkay; but now, God is shaping us and chiseling us\u2014and that hurts!\u2014He is chiseling us to be something <em>beautiful<\/em>. So yes\u2014you are right, Ann\u2014it\u2019s a way that God is actually, ultimately, bringing us into joy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019re right, Dave, it\u2019s not chipper happiness. It doesn\u2019t mean we smile more, necessarily. It <em>might<\/em> mean we cry more; but tears can reflect joy\u2014real joy\u2014biblical joy, not just pain; because we are in touch with ourselves and with reality\/with actual life with God. Tears are some of our most sublime and joyous moments. Pain is one way that gets us there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> When that pain is there, and we are working through the valley, you say there are two choices\u2014talk about that\u2014because growth doesn\u2019t happen if we make the wrong choice in the middle of that pain. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Sometimes, we\u2019ll meet a fellow saint at our church or in some context; and they are a professing Christian\u2014they are a true born-again believer\u2014but you can tell that there is a certain hollowness; there is a certain artificiality to them; they are just painting it on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI wonder if: \u201cIn many of those cases, what has happened is they came to that fork in the road\u2014moment of deep pain in their life\u2014and instead of moving towards God\/instead of banking on Him, afresh, evermore deeply\u2014they stiff-armed Him, and cooled towards Him, and went the other way toward cynicism\u201d\u2014is what it is\u2014\u201crather than faith.\u201d Cynicism is the opposite of faith; and therefore, instead of sweetening, they <em>soured<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI can testify to ways that my own dad\u2014through adversity, and pain, and deep mistreatment\u2014sweetened rather than soured. He was experiencing a depth of fellowship, communion, friendship with Jesus Christ that he\u2014or none of us\u2014can, when life is a bed of roses, enjoy; we just can\u2019t! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean, we praise God when life is going well: \u201cThank You, Lord!\u201d But when life goes south\u2014when we are fired unjustly; when one of the kids says, \u201cI <em>never<\/em> want to see you again\u201d; when the malignant report comes back\u2014are we then going to say, \u201cOkay, I guess God isn\u2019t good after all; maybe, He actually hates me,\u201d\u2014or are we going to say, \u201cHang on! He already proved, in the death and resurrection of His own <em>Son<\/em>, which I deserve to experience that death, the depth to which He is willing to go to love me. Therefore, I know that anything that washes into my life now <em>has<\/em> to be from the very gentle and tender, if painful, hand of a heavenly Father.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think we all know when we are at that point\/when we are at that crossroads. I was 38 years old when my 45-year-old sister died of lung cancer, and she had never smoked; my parents hadn\u2019t. She had four kids\/four boys, struggled in a hard marriage; but man, every morning at 4:30, she was up, reading her Bible. When she passed away, I\/man, I remember being at that fork, thinking, \u201cThis doesn\u2019t even make <em>sense<\/em>. I <em>don\u2019t<\/em> get it. What is the point of her life being gone?\u201d I couldn\u2019t see anything good in it; you can\u2019t explain it; and you can\u2019t wrap it in this little bow, with: \u201cWell, you know, God is good,\u201d\u2014even though I <em>knew<\/em> that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I remember being on the floor of my bathroom, face down before God, saying, \u201cI <em>don\u2019t<\/em> understand; but I will follow You, because I know You are good.\u201d My feelings\/my happiness didn\u2019t come back immediately; it took a long time. I remember just soaking in worship, but I couldn\u2019t sing because my heart and my soul felt dead; but I remember thinking, \u201cI need to feed my soul, and I need to be at this point of being in His presence for me to get that back.\u201d It\u2019s still hard, but God is good; and He <em>restores<\/em> our joy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Amen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I know that every time I have sat with a man or a couple that I walk away, going,\u2014\u201cMan, I want that depth of maturity; I want that dynamic relationship with God that they have,\u201d\u2014every time I have thought that about a person or a couple\u2014it\u2019s true every time, 100 percent\u2014they have gone through <em>real<\/em> pain. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It isn\u2019t <em>without<\/em> it. It\u2019s like they are where they are because they went through pain; made the choice to be better not bitter. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been around others, just like you said, Dane\u2014they are bitter\u2014they have lost their faith; they are mad; they are angry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014cynics. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It might have been the <em>exact<\/em> same type of valley; and yet, the choice in the valley is what determines what happens <em>out<\/em> of the valley. It\u2019s like, \u201cYes, I want that faith\u201d; but guess what? God\u2019s like, \u201cYes, you\u2019re not going to get it without some hard times. I\u2019m going to be with you through the whole thing. And yet, if you want to grow, let\u2019s go; because it\u2019s going to be\u2014<em>not easy<\/em>\u2014but it\u2019s going to be beautiful in the end.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> God wants us to learn to trust Him in the <em>absurdities<\/em> of life. It\u2019s one thing to trust Him, when there is pain, but we can see what He is doing with it. When there is pain\u2014and it makes no sense\u2014Ann, like you just said, it makes absolutely <em>no earthly<\/em> sense\u2014that is when He wants to say\u2014oh, C.S. Lewis has a great line in <em>Till We Have Faces,<\/em> where he says, \u201cGod doesn\u2019t want to give us answers when we are perplexed in life; God wants to <em>be<\/em> the answer. He is the One before whom all questions die away.\u201d That\u2019s the kind of Christian man <em>I<\/em> want to be. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, and I would just add: if you are listening, and your pain is your marriage\u2014like you\u2019re listening right now, and your pain is your husband, or your wife, or your kids\u2014you\u2019re probably thinking it\u2019s because: \u201cI\u2019m married to this person,\u201d or \u201cI\u2019m married\u2026\u201d\u2014no, it\u2019s not because of that\u2014it\u2019s because life is hard, and pain is a part of it. I just want to say, \u201cHold onto Jesus; He is your only hope.\u201d If you will allow Him to walk you through this, there is light on the other side. It\u2019s actually beautiful.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Dane, I was just hoping: would you pray? I\u2019m thinking so many people are resonating with that pain part. Would you just pray for them and us? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Absolutely. Let\u2019s pray, friends. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur Father in heaven, we entrust our lives to You. We are so thankful for what the Lord Jesus said in Matthew 6, when He said, \u201cOur heavenly Father knows what we need before we even speak it\u201d; and yet, You are so good; You want us to speak it to You and enjoy that fellowship with You. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWon\u2019t You take each of us into a deeper depth of fellowship, trust, and communion with You; so that whatever washes into our lives, it can only ultimately net out for our good, and glory, and growth, and deepening? In Jesus name; amen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Amen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Thanks, Dane. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Thanks. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Thank you, guys. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m thinking of another quote from C.S. Lewis, as I\u2019m listening to Dane Ortlund talk with Dave and Ann Wilson about adversity and pain in our lives, and how God uses that to mold us and to make us more like His Son. C.S. Lewis said, \u201cWe can ignore even pleasure, but pain insists upon being attended to.\u201d He said, \u201cGod whispers to us in our pleasure, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pain. It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world.\u201d That is something Lewis knew a little bit about, having lost his wife, and having to walk down that very painful path, and deal with the pain of loss in his own life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>If you are in pain today, we don\u2019t want to trivialize that or minimize that; but we do want to say, \u201cGod is present in your pain. He has a purpose for your pain, and He can accomplish great things in the midst of your adversity if you continue to run to Him in your pain.\u201d This is something that Dane Ortlund talks about in the book, <em>Deeper<\/em>, the book that he has written. The subtitle is <em>Real Change for Real Sinners<\/em>. As we think about a new year, many of us are thinking about real change in our lives. Dane\u2019s book is a guidebook to help us think about, not just changed behavior, but changed hearts, which is what God is interested in. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGet your copy of the book, <em>Deeper<\/em>, from Dane Ortlund when you go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order at 1-800-358-6329; 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, with just <em>hours<\/em> to go before we turn the calendar and begin a new year, here at FamilyLife, we are waiting to see if today is the day when we will receive the final donations we need to be able to take advantage of the $2.3 million matching-gift fund that was made available to us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid Robbins, who is the president of FamilyLife, is here with us. David, this is a critical day for us, here at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Yes; I mean, even hearing you, Bob, I just feel the weight of opportunity of all the things our team has planned in this coming year of 2022, and all the opportunity that we are positioned for in order to reach more families with the truth of the gospel and with the practical biblical help and hope to help marriages and families in the realness of everyday life. And yet, that opportunity really hinges a lot on these next few hours, and whether or not we meet this match, and fuels the ministry plans that we have in order to bring you more of what you love that FamilyLife brings you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>We do invite you, and we ask you: \u201cIf you\u2019re able to give, please give in these next coming hours before midnight tonight so that we can meet this match and go forward with the plans that God has put on our hearts to live out\/to reach more families in this year to come.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, and if you are giving online, the midnight cutoff point is midnight in whatever time zone you are in; in order for your donation to be a tax deduction in 2021, we need to hear from you in order for it to qualify for the matching funds. Or you can call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a yearend donation. If you are mailing your donation to us, you need to get it to the post office today so it will be postmarked with today\u2019s postmark. Again, all of that is necessary for us to take advantage of this matching-gift opportunity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWould you pray about a yearend donation right now?\u2014and call, or go online, or mail your donation to us\u2014our website is FamilyLifeToday.com; you can call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY; and if you want to mail your donation to us, write to FamilyLife at P.O. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBox 628222. That\u2019s in Orlando, Florida; and our zip code is 32862. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWith that, we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together with your local church this weekend. Hope you have a wonderful New Year\u2019s celebration. And hope you can join us back on Monday when Latayne Scott and Beth Robinson are going to be here to talk with Dave and Ann Wilson about how we can have important and effective conversations with our children, at the appropriate age, talking with them about human sexuality. We\u2019ll hear about that on Monday. I hope you can join us for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back in 2022 for the next edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. 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