{"id":307349,"date":"2021-12-30T08:02:06","date_gmt":"2021-12-30T13:02:06","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/getting-honest-about-who-we-are\/"},"modified":"2021-12-30T08:02:06","modified_gmt":"2021-12-30T13:02:06","slug":"getting-honest-about-who-we-are","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/getting-honest-about-who-we-are\/","title":{"rendered":"Getting Honest About Who We Are"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>If we hide, we don&#8217; grow.  Pastor Dane Ortlund asks us to get honest with God about who we really are by holding up our sins to the light<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-12-30.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:41","filesize":"25.35M","filesize_raw":"26578409","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2827],"tags":[4271,2706],"podcast_series":[8499],"cwp_profile":[3628],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307349","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-repentance","tag-sin","tag-spiritual-growth","podcast_series-deeper","cwp_profile-dane-ortlund","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307349\/getting-honest-about-who-we-are","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307349\/getting-honest-about-who-we-are","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"kn7kWBTvA3\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/getting-honest-about-who-we-are\/\">Getting Honest About Who We Are<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/getting-honest-about-who-we-are\/embed\/#?secret=kn7kWBTvA3\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Getting Honest About Who We Are&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"kn7kWBTvA3\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"If we hide, we don' grow. Pastor Dane Ortlund asks us to get honest with God about who we really are by holding up our sins to the light","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-12-30.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, before we jump into our interview today, this is an important time for FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> as we come to the end of 2021. It\u2019s the time for yearend giving. I don\u2019t know if people understand, for a ministry like ours, yearend giving <em>sustains<\/em> us\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014and enables us to be able to do what we\u2019ve done in 2021, and 2022, and beyond. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And we really want to continue to impact marriages\/to impact families. We want to <em>help<\/em> you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, so you can help us; and listen to this: we have partners, who have given up to $2 million as a matching gift; so anything you give, up to $2 million, will be <em>doubled<\/em> to help this ministry continue to go. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Did you hear that? That\u2019s like the best deal <em>ever<\/em>; I mean, that\u2019s amazing. And as a gift to you for giving, we are going to send you Dane Ortlund\u2019s devotional; it\u2019s called <em>In the Lord I Take Refuge<\/em>. It\u2019s a 150-day devotional, which is beautiful; and it\u2019s amazing. We\u2019ll send that to you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So if you\u2019d like to jump in, here is what you do: go to FamilyLifeToday.com, and you make a donation there; or you can call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY and become a partner with us. It\u2019s going to make a <em>huge<\/em> difference in, not only your life, but in your neighbor\u2019s life as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So tell me when you believe a man is really <em>serious<\/em> about truly wanting to change. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> When he gives a bunch of money to church. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014said the pastor. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; \u201cThe last part of a man to be converted is his wallet\u201d; no, that is a joke. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife app.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo tell me when you believe a man is really <em>serious<\/em> about truly wanting to change. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I think men, or women, when we get real about who we are, and how desperately we need Jesus\u2014when we realize we are at loss\u2014completely in life and eternity without a saving Christ.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So you\u2019re saying that\u2019s necessary, and you are looking for that? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I mean, I\u2019ve met with a lot of guys, who are playing games. You can just feel it when they are sitting with you, and I think [of] them not being truly honest about their sin\u2014and I\u2019m not saying I haven\u2019t done it; I\u2019ve played games as well\u2014I\u2019m not putting myself above anybody, but I think honesty is a part of it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So would you say, \u201cWhen we hide, we don\u2019t grow\u201d? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> No question. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know someone, who has thought a lot about this. Dane Ortlund is with us, back in the studio of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>; Dane, welcome back to FamilyLife. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Thanks, Dave and Ann. Good to talk with you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> The reason I know you\u2019ve thought about this a lot is you have written about it; you\u2019ve preached about it. One of the things I found very inspiring in your book\u2014<em>Deeper<\/em>, which we are going to talk about today\u2014<em>Deeper<\/em> is a book you\u2019ve written about: \u201cHow does a person change spiritually?\u201d <em>Real Change for Real Sinners<\/em>; you write about this. Man, I resonated with your thoughts on, when a man, or a woman, or a person gets honest with themselves about who they are, they really change. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, I know you know this: you\u2019re a pastor at Naperville Presbyterian; you\u2019re a father; you\u2019re an author. You\u2019ve got five kids, so you\u2019re watching this in your own home. But talk about that a little bit: \u201cWhat\u2019s this whole thing called honesty got to do with spiritual growth?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes, thank you, Dave. Well, actually, I would be glad to keep talking about giving money to the church. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s where we should be. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014said the other pastor. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> But what you just said is so profound, and true, and right, and something that we are professionals at: evading and escaping the health-fostering discipline of taking the mask off and being honest with a fellow brother or sister. Really, all we are talking about, guys, is the horizontal-izing of the gospel. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe gospel is a vertical thing; it comes from heaven to us because of what Christ has done\u2014okay, that\u2019s true\u2014I receive it, individually. \u201cWhat does it look like for the gospel in a church, to turn on its side, and become a horizontal reality?\u201d Well, it looks like \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t1 John 1:7: \u201cBut if we walk in the light, as He is in the light,\u201d\u2014Dave, this is what you are talking about; walking in the light is what you mean by honesty\u2014\u201cBut if walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are <em>masters<\/em>, even as believers, of self-concealment. The gospel is the only resource in the world that gives us the courage and the power to speak to another brother or sister of where we are really at in our present. It\u2019s easy to say, \u201cOh, I struggled with \u2018X,\u2019 \u2018Y,\u2019 or \u2018Z\u2019; and ten years ago, I got over it.\u201d [Laughter] But what about where I am <em>right now<\/em>? That\u2019s where the rubber meets the road. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So Dane, you are saying, \u201cYes, it is important to be that, and do that before God; but we need a brother or a sister that we\u2019re doing this with on the earth.\u201d Let me ask you: \u201cSo are you saying, if we <em>don\u2019t<\/em> have that with someone, we are <em>not<\/em> going to go deep; and we are <em>not<\/em> going to change and grow?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Well, yes and no. I mean, I wouldn\u2019t want to make this formulaic and cookie-cutter, Ann, and say that, if you aren\u2019t doing honesty and walking in the light with another brother or sister exactly in the right way, then you are stuck and hopeless. No! That would be awful. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> The Lord has a different way of working with each one of us; but when John says, in 1 John 1, \u201cIf we walk in the light, as He is in the light,\u201d\u2014he doesn\u2019t say\u2014\u201cIf some of us walk in the light\u2026\u201d \u201cIf those of us, who really happen to be wired in such a way that need to do this in order to grow, walk in the light...\u201d [Laughter] It\u2019s indiscriminate and universal: \u201cIf we walk in the light, as He is in the light\u2026\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe know that, when we have a sin that is taking root within us, and we keep it in the <em>dark<\/em>, that is where it grows <em>strongest<\/em>. That is what hell wants us to do: \u201cKeep it in the dark, where it festers, multiplies, proliferates, grows, gets stronger,\u201d\u2014the roots go down. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut when we pull it out into the light\u2014it\u2019s like a mushroom or something that only grows in the darkness: it comes out into the light; it withers and dies\u2014and we have a chance to grow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> But here is my question, Dane. I mean, in some sense, we know what you are saying is true; and yet, we still <em>hide<\/em>. We still keep our sins in the dark. We are <em>afraid<\/em> to bring them into the light. Why do we do this, and how do we get out of that rhythm? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> The reason we do that is we <em>don\u2019t<\/em> really believe the gospel. Here is what I mean: we are all walking through life. We are pinging back to us an assembled sense of our worth, and value, and importance of who we are, based on what we think others think about us; that is <em>gospel deficit<\/em>. What I am doing is\u2014I am walking around\u2014and that well should be full, based on what God says of me in Christ\u2014I shouldn\u2019t need to do that [depend on what others\u2019 think]. In other words, God has already said, \u201cYou are My adopted son, and <em>nothing<\/em> is ever going to take that away from you, not even <em>you<\/em> can sin your way out of that.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOkay; so when we are unwilling to take a sin out of darkness and into the light, before a brother, why are we afraid to do that?\u2014because we are afraid of losing face, because we are afraid of being embarrassed; in other words, because we are basing part of our identity on what other people think. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, and we <em>all<\/em> do that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> We do it! <em>I\u2019m<\/em> doing it; I\u2019m going to do it <em>tomorrow<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo what if we actually stockpiled our hearts with the Scripture in the morning?\u2014with a full sense of who we are, as members of the family of God\u2014such that, actually, we are invincible: we can walk through life, and we don\u2019t need to suck on the nicotine of human approval to get little drags.[Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good visual. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> We are totally safe and free. So that\u2019s one thought that comes to mind, brother. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I remember this pastor\u2014it was in our church, actually\u2014that he was giving this sermon. He said, \u201cImagine that the CEO, founder of this huge, multimillion dollar company, has you come up. He says, \u2018I want you to know\u2014you, to me, are <em>magnificent<\/em>\u2014you are a great leader. You are a great mover of people; you are the most <em>amazing<\/em> person that could ever be in this job\/that I\u2019ve ever had in this job. I want you to know this is what I believe in you. I\u2019m <em>always<\/em> going to believe in you, and you have a spot here.\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe said, \u201cSo you start: \u2018Yes, this is who I am.\u2019 Then you go downstairs a few floors; and these guys are like, \u2018You know what? You\u2019re <em>horrible<\/em>; you\u2019re a bad boss\u2019; but you\u2019re like, \u2018I could care less what you say, because the CEO thinks I\u2019m <em>amazing<\/em>.\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that is why we have to keep going back to the Father, who is speaking life to us; and if we don\u2019t, we start listening to the people that are beside us, saying, \u201cYou really don\u2019t have <em>anything<\/em>,\u201d or \u201cYou don\u2019t have what it takes.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Amen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; so the question is: \u201cIf I understand who God says I am, but I also know the reality is: I am carrying around this sin that I am hiding,\u201d\u2014you do such a good job talking about: \u201cOkay, you\u2019ve got to get that into the light,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cnot just with God, vertically.\u201d Talk about the horizontal piece: \u201cHow do we do this with a brother or a sister?\u201d or \u201cDo we do it with a couple?\u201d \u201cDo we do it with a whole bunch of people? Do we stand in front of the church and do it?\u201d What should that look like? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes; well, nothing cookie-cutter here. Each of us is going to have a different context, and a different set of relationships, and so on, guys; but here is what I would say: \u201cWe don\u2019t want to do it exhaustively\u2014\u2018Let me tell you the 113 things that I battled yesterday,\u2019\u2014but redemptive-ly.\u201d Actually, we could be very self-focused in how we are bringing sin into the light in a weird way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo here is what I would suggest. What if\u2014if someone is listening and saying, \u201cI would like to take a step forward, by the grace of God, in this way, walking in the light,\u201d\u2014here is what I would suggest:\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTake a week and pray, reflect, maybe journal a little bit; and then a week or so down the road, jot down two, or three, or four possible names of a person in your church, of the same gender, who you believe you can be safe with, a trustworthy man or woman. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhittle that list down to one person. Then gently, cautiously, but courageously, just say, \u201cHey, I don\u2019t know about you; but I am an actual sinner. Would you be comfortable if you were a safe place for me, every so often, to just talk very openly about what I am struggling with, and then would you pray for me?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJames 5:16 says, \u201cConfess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed,\u201d\u2014<em>not<\/em>\u2014\u201cConfess your sins to one another, and give each other pep talks or fix each other.\u201d So when we hear someone confess a sin, it might seem blindingly obvious what they need to do to get fixed; but we don\u2019t do that. We <em>pray<\/em> for them; okay? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cSo would you simply pray for me? Could we meet once a month for six months and do this?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPut a time stamp on it; so that if it\u2019s not going well, you have an out. [Laughter] Then meet with that person and dare to let them know where you really are at. I would guess\u2014this has been my experience, Dave and Ann\u2014when you do that with someone, they feel so <em>honored<\/em> by that; they will reciprocate. Before you know it, you have a little mutual two-way walking-in-the-light party going on; and both of you are getting traction in your Christian life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Dane, do you do that at your church? I know that we interviewed your dad, Ray Ortlund; and he actually does this at a men\u2019s group, where he preaches the Word. He says, \u201cWe just break into twos, and guys confess to one another.\u201d Is that something that you\u2019ve seen or experienced? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> I\u2019ve seen that happen at my dad\u2019s church, and we\u2019re moving in that <em>direction<\/em>. We are first learning how to honor one another. Now, the next step is going to be how to walk in the light together. It\u2019s scarier; so we\u2019re taking this one step at a time, guys. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m learning, and I\u2019m a toddler in this; but I do have two men in my life. One is 78; one is a peer\u2014my age\u2014in his 40s. They know what is really going on in my life, and I\u2019m not interested in being a Christian without that. Once you taste it, you move from being a 2-D Christian to a 3-D Christian; can I put it that way? Everything clicks into color; you\u2019re like, \u201cOh, maybe, I am a real Christian!\u201d [Laughter] It\u2019s actually more of an adventure; it\u2019s a much more enjoyable way to live. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Okay, I\u2019m going to ask you <em>guys<\/em> this question because\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, no! No, no, no, no; don\u2019t ask us. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014because, I mean, maybe this is over-generalizing\u2014but at least, for <em>me<\/em>, it\u2019s been amazing for me to do this with women. In my world, it has seemed as if most of the time, it is easier for women to do\u2014maybe not do this\u2014but at least, have those friendships that give you an access to one another\u2019s lives.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ve talked to <em>so many<\/em> women, who will say, \u201cMy husband doesn\u2019t have a friend. I\u2019m his only friend\u201d; but they <em>long<\/em> for their husband to have that relationship with other men. How, as women\/as wives, do we just pray about that for our guys? Is that the best thing to do? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Well, that would be a great starting spot; we could do a lot <em>worse<\/em> than that. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Because we want to tell them, \u201cYou guys need to go get a friend!\u201d and \u201cYou\u2026\u201d; but not sure what works. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes; because our wives <em>love<\/em> us, so they want to see us grow and flourish; of course, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI do think you are right. There is something in the <em>wiring<\/em> in female relationships that make it somehow easier to go there, perhaps. All I know is that I <em>stink<\/em> at it, and I am a man. The men I see in my world are not great at it, and we do need to grow in it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy wife is my <em>best<\/em> friend, but there is also a kind of conversation that I can only have with a man. My wife is my <em>deepest<\/em> best friend, but he understands in a way that she doesn\u2019t. That\u2019s true; my wife would acknowledge that too. And it\u2019s true for <em>her<\/em>. For me, there are certain things she can talk to a woman about that I do not understand, though, I am <em>her<\/em> best friend. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo what if everyone of us\u2014if we are married\u2014we have our spouse as our <em>best<\/em> friend, and then another person of the same gender as us, who knows what\u2019s really going on\u00a0 in our lives? I think you are really right in what you said, Ann. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, and I think, for a lot of us men, we are <em>afraid<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We are afraid of being exposed\/being known. I mean, I can\u2019t speak for every man; but it\u2019s like I <em>want<\/em> to be known. But if I told you what I really struggle with\u2014oh, my goodness\u2014I\u2019m afraid of what you would think, not just my wife, but even another guy. So I think we continue to hide, with the shell sort of up that we\u2019ve got: \u201cYes, we struggle like everybody else; but pretty much\/I\u2019m pretty good,\u201d and \u201cI\u2019m probably a little better than you.\u201d [Laughter] Do you know what I mean? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> We do that; don\u2019t we? We like to say, \u201cOh, yes, I\u2019m struggling with some things\u201d\u2014or \u201cthis,\u201d or \u201cthat,\u201d\u2014but I\u2019m not going to tell you the <em>specifics<\/em>. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou mentioned my dad earlier, guys. Something I\u2019ve heard my dad say, once or twice, is: \u201cWe can either be known or impressive.\u201d Someone can <em>know<\/em> me\u2014I think you are right, Dave\u2014we <em>deeply<\/em> desire, men and women, for someone to know. That\u2019s why Galatians 4 says: \u201cGod,\u201d\u2014in the gospel\u2014\u201cwe know Him and we are known by Him\u201d; but horizontally, too, we want to be known; but we also really want to be impressive. I can try to put up a big front, and no one knows what\u2019s really going on in my life, and try to impress others.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut actually, here is the wonder of it: when a brother comes up to me, and they say, \u201cHere is what I am really struggling with\u2026\u201d\u2014and they are tearful about it; they are totally red in the face; they cannot <em>believe<\/em> the mess they are making of their lives\u2014<em>that\u2019s<\/em> when that man is <em>most impressive<\/em> to me\u2014that\u2019s, actually, what is most deeply glorious. So actually, being known is <em>the way<\/em> to enjoy the glory and the respect that we long for as men. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Hey, Dane, what would you say in regards to confessing our sin to our spouse? You talked about\u2014you have a buddy\/you have a brother\u2014you also have your best-friend wife. Is it different? Is it similar? Is there a level that is different? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Wow; I do think it is a little different, Dave. I would not want to give any married person an excuse to be dishonest with their spouse on the one hand; on the one hand, I do think we want to come back to this idea of redemptive vulnerability versus crass vulnerability; in other words, openness and honesty that is redeeming in the way that it happens. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLet\u2019s say you\u2019ve got two 22-year-olds. They are getting married; they will want to be redemptive-ly honest and open with each other. Do they want to spend hours, and hours, and hours airing all their dirty laundry? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s what we did, Dane. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Okay; well, that might be healthy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> No! No, it wasn\u2019t. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We\u2019re here to say it was very unhealthy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Okay! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We didn\u2019t know it at the time, but now we say the same thing you are just about to say is: \u201cThat\u2019s not redemptive.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, keep going with that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes, just to be wise\u2014it\u2019s a matter of wisdom\u2014not like, \u201cI\u2019m just going to air everything before you\u201d; that can actually be quite hurtful. Maybe, it scratches an itch in <em>me<\/em>, as the one confessing it; because I feel like I\u2019m being so open and honest and something; but you are asking your spouse or your fianc\u00e9 to bear an <em>enormous<\/em> weight. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat is <em>loving<\/em> is to say: \u201cWhat, if I am in <em>their<\/em> shoes, what do I want to know?\u201d That\u2019s what we want to do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I think, as you go back to James 5:16, talk about confess your sins to one another. In some sense, you\u2019re like, \u201cWait; wait; wait. Aren\u2019t we supposed to confess our sins to God?\u201d Yes, but He also says \u201c\u2026to one another,\u201d\u2014again, that\u2019s <em>not<\/em>\u2014\u201cStand in front of 100 people,\u201d\u2014but it is a brother or sister and your spouse: \u201c\u2026and pray for one another that you may be <em>healed<\/em>.\u201d I think, often, we think healing is physical; and I think there is, obviously, that sense there; but it\u2019s <em>deeper<\/em>; isn\u2019t it? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s like, \u201cWow; he\u2019s talking about: \u2018You want to grow in Christ?\u2014that\u2019s going to propel you to that kind of healing, where your soul is set free; so that now, you are not in the dark; you\u2019re not hiding; you\u2019re not putting on a mask. You are literally being known by Christ and by a brother or a sister. Now you\u2019re on a path to a true healing of your soul that leads to real growth in Christ\u2019\u201d; am I right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> I <em>love<\/em> the way you just put that, Dave. Healing is <em>wholeness<\/em>; you are integrated\u2014integrity\u2014you\u2019re one. In other words, when you are hiding and got things in the dark, where they are festering, there are <em>two<\/em> of you. At that point, there are two Danes: there is the real Dane, that I am behind the mask; and then there is the Dane that I am preening and parading around the world with. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut when I confess my sins to someone else, then the two become one. It\u2019s much simpler and less <em>exhausting<\/em>; and you\u2019re <em>whole<\/em>. And I agree with you, brother, the healing there is not so much physical healing; internally, you are becoming whole. <em>Shalom<\/em> is washing over you as a human being. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I tell you what: you are listening right now; and you are thinking, \u201cI stumbled upon this,\u201d or maybe you were intentional today to listen to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Here you are: it\u2019s the end of 2021; 2022 is right around the corner. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou want a first step to a new life\u2014I know there is a brother or a sister, going, \u201cDon\u2019t say it,\u201d \u201cDon\u2019t say it,\u201d\u2014you need to find a brother or a sister that you can be real with, take off the mask, bring what\u2019s in the dark now into the light with God, with a brother or sister\u2014possibly, a little bit with your spouse\u2014that will be the <em>best<\/em> first step to <em>real<\/em> change in 2022. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Amen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Start <em>today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m thinking, right now, about a conversation I had last night with a married couple, who are in distress. There are a <em>lot<\/em> of issues in their marriage\/in their lives, just a lot that they are trying to process. I remember looking at the wife and just saying, \u201cWho do you have that you can just go to, and be real with, and process things with? Who are you leaning on? Who is supporting you in this?\u201d She looked back at me and said, \u201cThere is nobody.\u201d I said, \u201cWell, we\u2019ve got to ask God to provide those people for you; because the burden is too heavy to bear on our own.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat is why the Bible tells us, in Galatians 6, that we are to <em>bear<\/em> one another\u2019s burdens. If you find yourself feeling like the load is too heavy\u2014like change is too hard\u2014you need help. That\u2019s what Dane Ortlund has been talking with Dave and Ann Wilson about today. It\u2019s at the heart of his book, <em>Deeper: Real Change for Real Sinners<\/em>, a book we\u2019ve got in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can request your copy of Dane\u2019s book when you go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order. Our number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the title of the book is <em>Deeper<\/em> by Dane Ortlund. You can order it from us online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call to order at 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have been so encouraged this week to have heard from many of you, who are <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners, who have heard us talking about the matching-gift opportunity that is available to us, here, during the month of December. We are trying to take advantage of a $2.3 million matching gift. We\u2019ve heard from many of you, who have said, \u201cWe want to help with that.\u201d You have called or gone online; made generous donations. Your donations have been matched, dollar for dollar; and that\u2019s been very exciting for us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>There are still funds available in the matching-gift fund. So here, today and tomorrow, we want to do everything we can to challenge you\/to encourage you to get in touch with us, and to be as generous as you can be. If you look at the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> and say\u2014\u201cThis is something that I believe in; I think it\u2019s important. God has used it in my own life, my own heart; I want to see it continue and thrive in 2022,\u201d\u2014the need for marriages and families to be centered and anchored in God\u2019s Word has <em>never<\/em> been greater. That\u2019s why our need for your generosity has never been greater. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can make your donation today online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. When you do, that donation is going to be matched, dollar for dollar, until we\u2019ve exhausted the money that is in that $2.3 million matching-gift fund. We are also going to send you a copy of Dane Ortlund\u2019s devotional book from the book of Psalms; it\u2019s called <em>In the Lord I Take Refuge<\/em>. So you can have Dane\u2019s wisdom and counsel guiding you for the next 150 days once you get a copy of Dane\u2019s book. Again, give your gift online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY. And please do pray for us that we\u2019re able to take full advantage of this matching-gift opportunity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can join us back tomorrow when we\u2019re going to talk about one of the most significant ways God brings about change in our lives. It\u2019s very effective, and nobody wants Him to use it: it\u2019s the tool of pain or adversity. We\u2019ll talk about why it is so significant and why it is something we need to <em>embrace<\/em>. Dane Ortlund joins us, again, tomorrow. I hope you can as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. 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