{"id":307347,"date":"2021-12-29T08:02:13","date_gmt":"2021-12-29T13:02:13","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/when-doing-more-isnt-always-better\/"},"modified":"2021-12-29T08:02:13","modified_gmt":"2021-12-29T13:02:13","slug":"when-doing-more-isnt-always-better","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/when-doing-more-isnt-always-better\/","title":{"rendered":"When Doing More Isn&#8217;t Always Better"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>How do we continue to grow spiritually?  Dane Ortlund shares that we oftentimes think that we have to do more, but in reality it&#8217;s often about doing less and going deeper in the gospel truth.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-12-29.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:25:45","filesize":"23.58M","filesize_raw":"24720638","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822],"tags":[2706],"podcast_series":[8499],"cwp_profile":[3628],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307347","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","tag-spiritual-growth","podcast_series-deeper","cwp_profile-dane-ortlund","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307347\/when-doing-more-isnt-always-better","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307347\/when-doing-more-isnt-always-better","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"0prA64uLsC\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/when-doing-more-isnt-always-better\/\">When Doing More Isn&#8217;t Always Better<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/when-doing-more-isnt-always-better\/embed\/#?secret=0prA64uLsC\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;When Doing More Isn&#8217;t Always Better&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"0prA64uLsC\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"How do we continue to grow spiritually? Dane Ortlund shares that we oftentimes think that we have to do more, but in reality it's often about doing less and going deeper in the gospel truth.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-12-29.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Okay, I\u2019ve got a question for you: \u201cIf a <em>new<\/em> follower of Christ came up to you, <em>or<\/em> if one of our boys came up to you and said, \u201cI really want to grow in my walk with God. I\u2019m a brand-new follower of Christ. How do I grow <em>best<\/em>; what do I do?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019d say, \u201cGet to know and fall in love with Jesus.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> He\u2019s already done that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> No, he <em>hasn\u2019t<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201c<em>How<\/em> do I get to fall in love with Jesus?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019d say\/I mean, the thing I usually say is: \u201cI\u2019d get to know\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Let\u2019s get in an argument about this\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014get to know His Word; be in prayer; like be with other believers.\u201d That\u2019s usually what I say. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, and I think that\u2019s, honestly, what most people say.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, is that <em>wrong<\/em>?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I think it\u2019s <em>right<\/em>, but I think it\u2019s <em>deeper<\/em> than that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I think it\u2019s almost mysterious how God grows us. I think it\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> topic for <em>all<\/em> of us to understand, but especially as parents. That\u2019s the topic we\u2019re going to tackle today; it\u2019s a critical topic.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut before we do, you know, we\u2019ve got David Robbins, the president of FamilyLife, in the studio. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And that\u2019s always fun to have him here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s yearend for FamilyLife, a really important time. So David, talk about why this is such a critical time for FamilyLife.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> We have such a special opportunity, between now and the end of the year, where any gift that\u2019s given to FamilyLife is doubled, dollar for dollar\/where its impact can be doubled in order to reach more families. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen we talk about reaching families, and helping them <em>grow<\/em> in the ways of Jesus, I\u2019m reminded of a <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listener that shared with me this; they said, \u201cDivorce seemed inevitable for us, but <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>\u2019s daily encouragement helped us get through the worst valleys. Our marriage is still far from perfect, but we\u2019re no longer at a place where divorce is an option. Thank you <em>so much<\/em> for sharing <em>God\u2019s Word<\/em> with my family.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s what we\u2019re about, sharing the timeless truths of God\u2019s Word\/giving you that encouragement in the valleys when you need it; and we all know that we\u2019ve needed it this year. As you consider your yearend giving, would you consider giving to FamilyLife? Any amount matters, and it helps us double the impact because of that matching gift. Please give if you can, between now and the end of the year.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> If you\u2019d like to jump in, here\u2019s what you do: go to FamilyLifeToday.com, and you can make a donation there; or you can call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY and become a partner with us. It\u2019s going to make a <em>huge<\/em> difference, in not only your life, but in your neighbor\u2019s life as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is really <em>such<\/em> a great opportunity, so go to FamilyLife.com.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It is critical at this time of year, and we\u2019re hoping that you become financial partners\/prayer partners with us. It makes everything happen here at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tToday, we have Dane Ortlund back with us. [He] wrote a book called <em>Deeper<\/em>, which is all about: \u201cHow does a follower of Christ <em>grow<\/em> in his relationship with Christ?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDane, welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Dave and Ann, it is <em>always great<\/em> to talk with you\/a ton of fun. So thank you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Dane, you\u2019ve written a book called <em>Deeper<\/em>, and the subtitle is <em>Real Change for Real Sinners<\/em>. We have <em>loved <\/em>reading this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> This is\/I think it\u2019s a <em>classic<\/em> work on this topic. As you know\u2014you\u2019re a pastor in Naperville of Naperville Presbyterian; I\u2019ve been a pastor for 30 years\u2014this is something close to our heart, as pastors, helping lead people; and that is the biggest question they ask.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And also, you and your wife have five kids. This is something you\u2019re teaching your kids, too; and you\u2019re <em>modeling<\/em> this to them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got to get you to dig into this: \u201cHow do we change?\u201d I look at your subtitle, <em>Real Change for Real Sinners<\/em>\u2014and I\u2019m <em>living with<\/em> a real sinner\u2014she\u2019s sitting right here beside me. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think every person could say that! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019ve been trying to change her, and it\u2019s not working! So there must be a <em>deeper<\/em> way. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I tell ya\u2014[Laughter] \u2014\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Okay, so go where we were\u2014like, if your kids ask you, or anybody, \u201cHow do I change?\u201d\u2014where do you start?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Oh man, that subtitle was <em>very<\/em> carefully chosen, guys: <strong><em>Real Change<\/em><\/strong><em> for <\/em><strong><em>Real Sinners<\/em><\/strong>, as opposed to what we all tend to naturally\/intuitively think, which is: \u201cThe way I grow is really about <em>behavioral<\/em> change\/<em>external<\/em> change\u2014doing something differently in my life\u2014cutting carbs, getting up earlier.\u201d <strong><em>For Real Sinners<\/em><\/strong> as opposed to <em>theoretical sinners<\/em>. We all believe we are born sinful\u2014\u201cOkay; that\u2019s true,\u201d\u2014but actually, we are <em>proving<\/em> that doctrine <em>every day<\/em>\u2014 [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> \u2014in our actual lives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m wrestling, in this book, with what the Scripture says, under the coaching of great thinkers from the past, as to: \u201cHow do we enjoy <em>real<\/em> change\u2014not merely behavioral\u2014for <em>real sinners<\/em>, not merely theoretical sinners?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tActually, Dave, that\u2019s <em>me<\/em>. I am frustrated <em>in my life<\/em> with how little\u2014how much it feels like two steps forward and five steps backward in a given day, week, or month\u2014I want to keep <em>growing<\/em> in this. I think <em>many<\/em> of us Christians, maybe we could say <em>all<\/em> believers, know what that is to know: \u201cI feel like I\u2019m on a treadmill. How do I really begin to get traction in my spiritual life?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I mean, I think a lot of people can relate to: \u201cI\u2019m 40-plus years into my Christian walk. Came to Christ in my\/just before I was 20 years old.\u201d I just told our listeners how old I am; didn\u2019t I? [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s good.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Here\u2019s the thing\u201440-plus years\u2014and I resonate with what you said, Dane. It\u2019s like, \u201cOkay, I\u2019ve seen God transform my life. I\u2019m a different man than I was; but boy, oh boy, I thought I\u2019d be a lot farther along than where I am,\u201d\u2014like you said, it\u2019s like\u2014\u201cTwo steps\u201d\u2014for me\u2014\u201c<em>twenty<\/em> steps backward.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes; exactly, Dave. I <em>know<\/em> what you mean. I think I\u2019m probably going to die one day, still feeling that way; so praise God for the gospel. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut to look back to what you said a minute ago: \u201cWhat would I say to my kids when they come to me, or to someone who sits down in my office here in Naperville, and says, \u2018I\u2019m <em>really<\/em> struggling; how do I grow?\u2019\u201d There\u2019s a hundred things to say; but here\u2019s number one on the list: Number one on the list is exactly what Ann said, at the top of the show here: \u201cThe Lord:\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Did you hear that?! I got something right. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I did not hear that. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Okay; keep going, Dane.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cWho is the Lord Jesus?\u201d We <em>grow<\/em> by going <em>deeper<\/em> into the <em>Lord Jesus<\/em> and what was true of us at our <em>conversion<\/em>, not by graduating on to other tricks, tips, and strategies. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cWho is Jesus?\u201d\u2014Ephesians 3:8\u2014\u201c\u2026the unsearchable riches of Christ.\u201d I\u2019ve come to believe the way that we grow and get traction in the Christian life is by sinking more deeply into <em>who<\/em> Jesus\u2014in all His multifaceted wonder\u2014is as our Lord, Savior, Friend and Deliverer. That\u2019s the banner over which I would want to frame everything about how we grow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I thought it was intriguing, even as you say that, one of the things that you also said is: \u201cThe basic point of this book is that change is a matter of\u201d\u2014what you said, Dane\u2014\u201cgoing deeper. Christian growth is bringing what you do and say, and even feel, into line with what, in fact, you already are. Real change occurs through this reality: the life of God in the soul of man.\u201d Talk about that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Well, guys, when we read the New Testament, there\u2019s actually not that much about growing\u2014it\u2019s there; it\u2019s there\u2014\u201cWe want to grow up into Him who is the head; that is Christ,\u201d\u2014Ephesians 4 [verse 15 paraphrased] and so on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut for example, to take First, Second and Third John, there\u2019s <em>not a word<\/em> about growth in those three letters. Here\u2019s the consistent ringing message of the New Testament\u2014<em>and growth<\/em> slots in under this\u2014the message of the New Testament for the Christian life is: \u201cBe who you now are. I already have, by the grace of God as someone united to Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit dwelling in me, I have everything I need to grow. I don\u2019t need to look outward and elsewhere.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYes, we need to be part of a local church and have a community\u2014and there\u2019s all kinds of footnotes to this\u2014but the point of the New Testament is: \u201cYou are now a son or a daughter of God, justified, adopted and reconciled. <em>Live in light of it<\/em>! That\u2019s who you are; walk in light with who you are.\u201d That\u2019s the consistent rhythm of the New Testament. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Talk about that then. If you are saying, \u201cGrowth is: \u2018Be who you now are,\u2019\u201d\u2014part of me thinks, \u201cOh, that\u2019s an inward look at myself, <em>not<\/em> an upward look at who Jesus is,\u201d\u2014so balance out those two perspectives.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> That\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> objection, Dave, that some are doubtless saying. The answer is: \u201cOn the one hand, the way we \u2018Be who we now are,\u2019 is by learning, more resolutely all the time, to look out of ourselves at the Lord Jesus: \u2018\u2026fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith\u2019 Hebrews 12 [verse 2].\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut here\u2019s the point: as we go through the Christian life, what we\u2019re doing is: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cHere\u2019s someone, Dave\u2014they\u2019ve really hurt me and offended me\u2014how do I deal with that?\u201d The answer is: \u201cForgive as I have been forgiven.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cHow do I bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit?\u201d I don\u2019t get on FruitoftheHolySpirit.com and click \u201cSign me up.\u201d I recognize the Holy Spirit is within me. I simply need to keep in step with who I now am. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI have been lifted out of the old age and parachuted into the new age. I still live in the old age, in the sense that the flesh is still strong in me\u2014I still sin; I\u2019m still fallen, yes\u2014but my I.D. card, spiritually, says, \u201c\u2026<em>in heaven<\/em>.\u201d I need to now live in light of what is already true of me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe reason I\u2019m putting it this way, guys, is it\u2019s liberating\/it\u2019s freeing. I don\u2019t need to so much <em>achieve<\/em> some new level of holiness; I just need to, when I\u2019m done with this interview, walk out of my office and love others, mindful of how audaciously, invincibly, and <em>permanently<\/em> loved I am by God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> But Dane, I hear that\u2014we know that intellectually: we hear it; we agree with it; we know it\u2019s sound biblical teaching\u2014\u201c<em>Why<\/em> do we fail?\u201d and \u201cWhy <em>don\u2019t<\/em> we live like that?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Because we are <em>real sinners<\/em>. [Laughter] This is\u2014hey, guys, here\u2019s one of the things I wanted to say in the book; this is under a chapter called \u201cAcquittal\u201d\u2014what I wanted to say is: \u201cIf you want to grow in Christ, and you\u2019re frustrated because you\u2019re <em>not<\/em>, that\u2019s a sign that God is in you. That, itself, is hope-giving.\u201d Okay, [that\u2019s] number one.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNumber two: one key way, Ann, that we keep growing is by never losing sight of the good news\/the gospel that got us in, in the first place. We\u2019re going to be stumbling and battling our way forward; we\u2019re going to be messing up all the time. One key way that we get traction in the Christian life is by constantly returning to\/pressing \u201cRefresh\u201d on the good news\/the <em>scandalous<\/em> gospel that got us in. That is <em>never<\/em> irrelevant\u2014it\u2019s not like we need that to get in, and then we move onto other things; and then we die one day, and we need it again then\u2014no, it\u2019s what keeps us in the air all the way along.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I think that\u2019s so true. I\u2019m thinking of myself: if I\u2019m super busy, and stuff\u2019s going on, and I\u2019m just running hard\/my schedule is so crazy, I\u2019m not getting a chance to spend time with Jesus. I find myself <em>struggling<\/em> because\u2014when I am with Him, and I see Him, and I\u2019m experiencing and <em>reminding<\/em> myself of His great love\u2014<em>that<\/em> is what changes me, and it motivates me, and that\u2019s what draws me back to Him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI need to be reminded <em>daily<\/em>, sometimes hourly, of that love; because I feel like the world is <em>constantly<\/em> making us feel like: \u201cWe are failing,\u201d \u201cWe are failing,\u201d \u201cWe are failing.\u201d I think you\u2019re right. To go deeper is <em>seeing<\/em> Jesus, reminding us of the gospel and all that He\u2019s done and paid for us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> I love that, Ann; I agree strongly. Just to add a little brief footnote onto that: \u201cWe don\u2019t change by focusing on change. We change by focusing on Christ, and change comes in the back door.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe don\u2019t mainly grow by thinking about: \u201cOh, am I growing or not?\u201d\u2014that becomes what Dave was saying, to [be] really self-reflective, like we\u2019re holding up a mirror to ourselves all the time\u2014but what if, instead of a mirror, we were holding up a window, looking at Christ? That\u2019s actually what changes us, <em>beholding<\/em> Him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and I loved how you opened the book, doing that for the reader. Page 22, you say, \u201cBut let me ask you to open yourself up to the possibility that one reason you see modest growth and on-going sin in your life, if that is indeed the case, is that the Jesus you are following\u201d\u2014I love how you wrote this\u2014\u201cis a junior varsity Jesus, an unwittingly reduced Jesus, an unsurprising and predictable Jesus.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ve said many times, as a pastor: \u201cIt\u2019s not the size of your faith that matters; it\u2019s the size of your <em>God<\/em>.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Amen.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s like we always think: \u201cI need bigger faith,\u201d \u201cI want to grow my faith,\u201d\u2014and yet, its\u2014faith can be mustard-seed size, but if it\u2019s in the right object\/if we understand who Jesus really is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou take the early part of your book and say, \u201cLet me tell you who Jesus is.\u201d Talk about any one of those attributes, because you walk through several that I\u2019ve never seen written the way you wrote it. So talk about them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m going to say to our listeners: \u201cListen in on this; we <em>all<\/em> need to be reminded of this, because it changes us.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Here\u2019s one way that I would start to answer that question, Dave\u2014and thank you for that, guys\u2014is the Jesus we\u2019re bored with is <em>not<\/em> the real Jesus. If you\u2019re bored with Jesus, the problem is <em>you<\/em>, not Him. I\u2019m not talking to you two\u2014but anyone; and myself at the top of the list\u2014\u201cWhy do I just get so flat and ho-hum about the Lord Jesus?\u201d\u2014because I don\u2019t see who He really is. The real Jesus is not boring; the real Jesus is irresistible and inexhaustible. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s what I wanted to do in the first chapter is try to draw out some ways that the Lord Jesus looms larger than we realize. For example, one little section there was reflecting on the intercession of Jesus\u2014that\u2019s a big theological word\u2014but the New Testament gives it to us. All that means is: Jesus is not twiddling His thumbs in heaven right now\u2014and He did His real job, two thousand years ago, and now, He\u2019s exhausted His job description\u2014no! He\u2019s in heaven, before the angels, in the court of heaven before the Father, interceding on our behalf. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt doesn\u2019t mean He\u2019s making us any more saved; what it means is He is <em>applying<\/em> our full salvation in the court of heaven. In other words, here I am\/here\u2019s Dane\u2014stumbling his way and sinning his way through his little messy life\u2014not only is it true that Jesus Christ died for me; and therefore, I am justified\/I\u2019m free to leave the court room\u2014it\u2019s also true He\u2019s <em>interceding<\/em> for me; and therefore, He is reminding the whole host of heaven of just how justified, forgiven, and safe I am. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI don\u2019t think we talk about that enough, guys!\u2014the intercession of Christ\u2014it\u2019s <em>wonderfully<\/em> comforting. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and I love when you talked about that in the book. You said the reason He\u2019s interceding is we are still <em>sinning<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It isn\u2019t like we came to Christ, and He\u2019s done interceding; He\u2019s <em>still<\/em> interceding because, right now, we\u2019re still stumbling along like you said.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTalk about befriending. I <em>love<\/em> that aspect when you wrote about that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> We say in our evangelical world\u2014and we should\u2014that the Lord Jesus is our Lord and our Savior\u2014halleluiah; amen\u2014but that\u2019s not the only thing to say about Him. He could be our Lord and our Savior; and really, we functionally look at Him more like an employer. But actually He says\u2014John 15\u2014\u201cI no longer call you servants\u2026I call you friends [verse 15].\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve diluted the category of friendship through Facebook<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> and other things. But think of what the word, \u201cfriend,\u201d means. Here\u2019s someone who is with me, going through my life, shoulder to shoulder, with me\u2014He\u2019s not only above me; He\u2019s not only within me\u2014He\u2019s <em>next<\/em> to me, navigating life at my side. He\u2019s my friend; He always lets me in and never lets me down. And here\u2019s the glory of it: \u201cHe never mis-understands me\u201d; can I put it that way? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have friends\u2014and they nod and smile and say, \u201cLet me pray for you\u201d; and they understand partially\u2014but no one ever fully, exhaustively understands 100 percent all the weirdness going on inside of me that is making life hard, [not] even a spouse. Jesus Christ is the <em>friend<\/em> of sinners, and He <em>always<\/em> understands us perfectly\/perfect solidarity. That\u2019s gloriously comforting.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, as beautiful as you describe this image of who Jesus really is, here\u2019s my question: \u201c<em>Why<\/em> do we forget this?\u201d \u201c<em>Why<\/em> does that get lost?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> We\u2019re fallen; we\u2019re sinners\u2014it\u2019s just who we are.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tReally, the main thing that we need to have sort of as the banner\/the umbrella over what we\u2019re saying, as we are talking about how we change, is that God has <em>changeless<\/em> embrace of us, despite <em>our changing<\/em> levels of sanctification, and growth, and obedience. There\u2019s something unchangeable\u2014and that\u2019s the Lord\u2019s own hug\/that\u2019s the Lord\u2019s own pulling of us into His own heart\u2014and our safe and secure adopted status as His children.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019re question, because it is so hard to answer, is why we must always be grabbing onto the gospel and never letting go of it as we\u2019re wrestling with why we are so weird and bad at growing. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> But I think, too\u2014as a family, as a husband, as a wife, and with our kids\u2014I think that thing that our kids see, though, is that wrestling. I think that\u2019s okay that we continue to run after Jesus. We might fall down\u2014we\u2019re scraped; we\u2019re skinned\u2014but to see us get back up and to continue to pursue and run after Jesus, I think our kids see that; and that\u2019s important.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Amen, Ann. I\u2019m screwing up all the time, as a dad and a husband. At the <em>least<\/em>, could my wife and my kids see someone, who is repentant?\u2014someone who has humility in the wake of screwing up?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I want is a home, where pretense it low; rather than a home, where pretense is high\u2014and we\u2019re all faking it; I\u2019m yelling at them in the minivan all that way to church and, then, we pull into the parking lot: I say, \u201cEveryone paint a smile on now!\u201d\u2014that\u2019s pretense; I don\u2019t want that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want my kids to grow up and say, \u201cYou know, my dad screwed a lot of things up; but when he did, he apologized; so that was a <em>real<\/em> Christian, who was raising us in our home.\u201d I agree with what you just said, Ann.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> How would we\u2014in our homes, in our marriages, in our families\u2014be different if we went to Scripture, not as a spiritual discipline for growth\u2014although, that will be a byproduct\u2014if we went to Scripture merely to get a real good look at who God is through Jesus? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean, <em>that<\/em>\/I mean, if I\u2019m a husband listening today, that\u2019s my action step\u2014if I\u2019m a wife\u2014I\u2019m like, \u201cGo grab your Bible; open it up and say, \u2018God, show me who You are\u2019; and you will see Him in a way, maybe, you haven\u2019t seen. That will change you, and change your family, and change your legacy.\u201d That one action step is that critical.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Amen. I grew up and saw my mom on the couch with her cup of tea and her Bible open <em>every single morning<\/em>. She was doing what you were just describing, Dave. It\u2019s marked me for life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The Bible says about itself that: \u201cThe Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword [Hebrews 4:12].\u201d The Bible does surgery, cutting away what <em>doesn\u2019t<\/em> need to be in our lives, and helping to strengthen what <em>does <\/em>need to be there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs we think about New Year\u2019s resolutions, and about change in 2022, we want to pursue that which is real and substantive, not that which is just cosmetic. We want to change on the inside, not just our behavior. That\u2019s what Dane Ortlund addresses in the book he\u2019s written called <em>Deeper<\/em>. The subtitle is <em>Real Change for Real Sinners<\/em>; that includes all of us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have copies of Dane\u2019s book available in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. This would be a <em>great<\/em> book for you to start off the new year as you think about the changes you need to see in your own heart and life. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order your copy of <em>Deeper: Real Change for Real Sinners<\/em> by Dane Ortlund. You can order online, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get your copy. Again, the website, FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-358-6329; 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want you to think, for just a minute, about times in your life when you have been waiting for important news\/waiting to find out something that you\u2019ve been wondering about, even praying about for a while. The reason I want you to think about that is because, here at FamilyLife, that\u2019s where we are today, with just a few days left before the calendar turns and we\u2019re in 2022. We are waiting to see if we\u2019re going to hear from enough <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners, here at yearend, to be able to take full advantage of a $2.3 million matching gift that has been in place for us during December.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve heard from many of you; thank you for those of you who have called or gone online to make a yearend donation. We are grateful for that. But we are waiting to see: \u201cWill we be able to finish the year with that $2.3 million matching gift fully secured?\u201d That\u2019s certainly our prayer, and we want to ask you to pray with us for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe also want to ask you: \u201cIf you have <em>not<\/em> made a yearend contribution, would you do that today?\u201d Go online or call; and be as generous as you can be, knowing that, not only is your donation going to be matched\u2014dollar for dollar, again up to that $2.3 million total\u2014but we\u2019re also going to send you, as a thank-you gift, a new devotional from our guest today, Dane Ortlund. He\u2019s written a devotional from the book of Psalms called <em>In the Lord I Take Refuge<\/em>,150 devotions from Psalms to help carry you into the new year and help you grow spiritually. The book is our gift to you when you donate today online at FamilyLifeToday.com or when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY. We hope to hear from you. Please pray for us that we\u2019re able to meet this matching-gift total before the year ends, here in a few days.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can join us, again, tomorrow when we\u2019re going to hear about why it\u2019s so important for us to pursue change, not on our own, but in community\/why we need one another if there\u2019s going to be real change in our lives. Dane Ortlund joins us again. We hope you can be here as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/307347","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=307347"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=307347"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=307347"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=307347"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=307347"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=307347"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=307347"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}