{"id":307311,"date":"2021-11-30T08:02:23","date_gmt":"2021-11-30T13:02:23","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/his-burden-is-light-really\/"},"modified":"2021-11-30T08:02:23","modified_gmt":"2021-11-30T13:02:23","slug":"his-burden-is-light-really","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/his-burden-is-light-really\/","title":{"rendered":"His Burden Is Light? (Really?)"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>In rough days, it&#8217;s easy to see God as our #1 critic. Is He fighting for us\u2014or fed up with us? Author Dane Ortlund examines whether God&#8217;s adding the unbearable weight of perfection on top of our pain &#8230; or if it&#8217;s true His burden is light.<\/p>\n<p>Show Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tFind resources from this podcast on our FamilyLife Shop.<br \/>\n \tDownload FamilyLife&#8217;s new app!<br \/>\n \tCheck out all that&#8217;s available on the FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In rough days, it&#8217;s easy to see God as our #1 critic. Is He fighting for us\u2014or fed up with us? Author Dane Ortlund examines whether God&#8217;s adding the unbearable weight of perfection on top of our pain &#8230; or if it&#8217;s true His burden is light.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-11-30.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:26:40","filesize":"24.41M","filesize_raw":"25599682","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822],"tags":[4299,4960],"podcast_series":[8490],"cwp_profile":[3628],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307311","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","tag-faith","tag-scripture","podcast_series-gentle-and-lowly","cwp_profile-dane-ortlund","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307311\/his-burden-is-light-really","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307311\/his-burden-is-light-really","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"xjj5aLIDXj\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/his-burden-is-light-really\/\">His Burden Is Light? (Really?)<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/his-burden-is-light-really\/embed\/#?secret=xjj5aLIDXj\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;His Burden Is Light? (Really?)&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"xjj5aLIDXj\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-11-30.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-11-30.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane: <\/strong>Jesus says His heart is gentle and lowly\u2014His heart\u2014this is consistent with the testimony of the Old Testament: \u201cThe Lord, the Lord, <em>slow<\/em> to anger, <em>abounding<\/em> in steadfast love [emphasis added],\u201d\u2014Exodus 34, which is picked up, time and again, throughout the Old Testament. We picture God as the photo-negative of this; because we know, way down deep, we are guilty sinners. We\u2019re free to honor Christ by letting His forgiveness loom larger than all of our guilt, shame, and regret. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today, <\/em>where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife App.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife<\/em>\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014<em>Today.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Have you ever heard someone say, \u201cIf I walked into the church, the walls would come down.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> My brother said that; I\u2019ve heard a lot of people say that, actually.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Me too.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> But I remember my brother saying that. His thought was, \u201cI have so much sin in my life; there\u2019s no way that a sinner like me can be accepted in church.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Although he never told us that! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I mean, it\u2019s what we <em>think<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We think that God would <em>never<\/em> embrace a sinner, and the truth is so much different and more beautiful than that. And that\u2019s what we\u2019re going to talk about today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut, you know, before we get there, we\u2019ve got David Robbins in the studio with us today, the president of FamilyLife. He\u2019s here because December is such a crucial moment in the life of FamilyLife [as a] ministry. David\u2019s going to talk about that, so tell us why December is such a pivotal time in our ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Well, it\u2019s really simple. What happens over the next few weeks will determine the amount of ministry that we will be able to do in the year to come. Like many ministries and non-profits, so much of our giving [from] people, who generously donate to FamilyLife, comes at the end of the year. When I think about this year, 2021 has been a vivid reminder of why we need to stay deeply committed to Jesus in our homes. That\u2019s why, at FamilyLife, we are doubling down on this vision of every home becoming a godly home; because that\u2019s when people will find satisfaction in their families and in their lives.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are <em>committed<\/em> to it, and we are seeing our engagement on radio and podcasting grow; it\u2019s grown 84 percent this year of 2021. We\u2019re thankful for that growth, but we want to reach even more homes. Your gift, this yearend, can help us engage more homes with the gospel and the ways of Jesus that can be lived out among families. That\u2019s why I want to invite you and challenge you to give this yearend if you can. Every gift matters. Whatever you are able to give, we are so grateful for it; and we invite you to please join the team.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and so, as David said, we need you. As we are rolling into December, this is our December <em>match<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is the time to give; because of that match, it will be <em>doubled<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Because we\u2019ve had some generous donors give up to $1.5 million.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014which is amazing!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014which is a miracle from God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Thinking, as you give, that\u2019s going to be matched by that. I hope you join us and make a yearend gift to FamilyLife. You can do that; just go to FamilyLifeToday.com, or call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And as a \u201cThank you,\u201d for your giving\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014this is kind of fun\u2014we\u2019re going to send you a couple gifts as just a special \u201cThank you,\u201d for helping us meet this generous match. We\u2019re going to send you some conversational playing cards, and we\u2019re also going to send you a devotional.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, which is written by our guest today, who\u2019s in the studio: Dane Ortlund.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThanks for being with us today, Dane. Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Thank you. Good to talk with you guys.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And we\u2019ve already spent a day\u2014boy, what a program\u2014talking about the heart of Jesus being gentle and lowly\u2014which is the title of your book, <em>Gentle and Lowly<\/em>\u2014which is a book on that\/the very heart of Jesus, which is so paradigm-shifting.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> If you haven\u2019t picked up the book, you need to pick it up; read it\u2014put it beside your bed, even if you read a few pages every night\u2014because it will transform your view of Jesus and God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and obviously, you\u2019re a pastor in the Chicago area; married how many years?\u201420?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Twenty.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Coming up on 20, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, we get into the idea that Jesus is so much different than a lot of us think and behave. How does that affect how we approach Him?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know, as a pastor\u2014and I was a pastor\u2014often, people sort of were afraid of <em>me<\/em>. Like, as a Detroit Lions chaplain, if I walked into the Detroit Lions locker room, which I did daily, every once in a while, somebody would say, \u201cOh, sorry, pastor!\u201d when they cursed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Like I couldn\u2019t be around that, and they shouldn\u2019t ever do that around me, and they wanted to run away from me. My response\/I was always like, \u201cYou don\u2019t understand me at all. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You\u2019re not judging, yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cI don\u2019t think any less of you because of that. I actually would <em>love <\/em>to spend time with you.\u201d I felt that\u2014and even, I know you\u2019ve experienced the same thing as a pastor\u2014and I know Jesus felt that, but that\u2019s <em>not<\/em> His heart. Talk about how we approach Him if that\u2019s who He is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Boy, I\u2019ve experienced that, too\u2014not in an NFL locker room\u2014but people thinking they have to suddenly <em>really <\/em>watch what they say when they\u2019re around you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> How awful! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSinclair Ferguson is an author who makes this point in one of his books: \u201cPeople view me or you in our preaching. They form a picture of <em>Christ<\/em> based on how we are, not mainly what we say,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cbut how we are looking people in the eyes, and the tone and posture with which we are conducting ourselves toward [them].\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0I want to give people\u2014to come back around to your question now\u2014I want to give people the <em>aroma<\/em> of Jesus Christ. They might say, \u201cYou know, I didn\u2019t know that word that he used; I didn\u2019t quite follow the second point. I don\u2019t know about that point of application, but I am <em>drawn in<\/em>; I\u2019m attracted to this kind of <em>person<\/em>.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I want to be just a little modest\u2014in my own fallen, finite way\u2014glimmer of what Jesus Himself is like; because I want to defiantly correct the deep, deep, deep intuition and reflex that people have, that they can\u2019t approach Christ except at their <em>best<\/em>. Actually, the testimony of Scripture\u2014and this is the way God is in the Old Testament prophets\u2014is that He is drawn to us when we are at our lowest. I just want to keep immersing people in that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It reminds me: we recently interviewed your dad. Ray, your dad, has this magnetic personality. He pulls out and calls out the greatness in everybody that he met; he asks them questions.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I felt a sense of <em>warmth<\/em>. I don\u2019t know if that was your experience, growing up\u2014and I don\u2019t know him, obviously, anywhere near like you did\u2014but I <em>felt<\/em>, just what you said, drawn in.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We were drawn to him! Like, he speaks life everywhere he goes; and I think it\u2019s exactly what Jesus did.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Amen.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> He could <em>see<\/em> the sin; but He still loved, and wooed, and called people toward Him to the point\u2014and of course, people were following Him\u2014because who wouldn\u2019t want to follow that person?!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> They did, yes. I mean, why is a \u201csinful woman\u201d washing His feet with her hair when He\u2019s hanging out with all the religious PhDs of the day?\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> \u2014all the <em>impressive people!<\/em> But these are the people\u2014the destitute, the outcast; those who are at the end of their rope\u2014in other words, really, we see ourselves all the time in these people. They can\u2019t stay away!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> They find Him irresistible, so praise God!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019m sure you\u2019ve heard the pushback. The pushback is: \u201cWhoa, whoa; wait! We\u2019re supposed to fear God; we <em>should be <\/em>afraid of Him. We should be afraid to be near His holiness; because we\u2019re full of sin, and we\u2019re dirty. That\u2019s the God that I know, and that\u2019s who God is.\u201d What do you say to that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s a very understandable feeling; and actually, I believe that, racquet-ing out the gospel. That is true! I am a dirty, messy wretch; I\u2019m a train wreck! But then, if you bring the gospel in\u2014and the reason we have to go to church every week; the reason we have to read our Bible every day\u2014is because we keep forgetting this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen you bring the gospel in\u2014actually, you are told what you feel about your state of cleanliness: your state of being not guilty, but acquitted, and free to leave the court room\u2014you don\u2019t <em>feel <\/em>that way; but actually, in the gospel, because of what Christ did, that <em>is<\/em> who you are! Therefore, it feels scandalous. If you\u2019re in Christ, you\u2019re free to <em>feel<\/em> totally forgiven and to stop. That\u2019s very deeply against our intuitions, but it\u2019s gloriously true.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, it reminds me: we recently interviewed a friend of yours, Sam Allberry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We\u2019re going to have you listen to this clip of Sam, and we want you to respond to it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Previous <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Broadcast]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Sam:<\/strong> The flesh has its own fleshly way of dealing with the flesh. [Laughter] And we think, \u201cOkay, I need to man up! I need to just kind of fight harder.\u201d But Titus 2 says, \u201cIt is the grace of God that teaches us to say, \u2018No,\u2019 to ungodliness.\u201d The only way we can fight these very, very deep-seated impulses that we find within us is we need to keep receiving the grace of God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Studio]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Amen. It takes a Bible to believe that; because our own natural intuitions are: \u201cYes, I\u2019ve screwed up! Okay, let me try to chip away at this.\u201d I love what Sam says there!\u2014\u201cWe use the flesh to battle against our own felt flesh-ness,\u201d\u2014and we have <em>a lot <\/em>of flesh going on! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut actually, we are softened, and melted, and lifted into change. We can white-knuckle external behavioral change\u2014\u201cI can cut carbs and get up earlier!\u201d \u201cI can <em>make<\/em> myself do it!\u201d But actually, that\u2019s not changing me\u2014that\u2019s just surface-level\u2014that\u2019s not from the inside-out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat Sam is saying there is so <em>wonderfully <\/em>true. Actually, this is a sustainable Christian life\u2014if that is true, according to Scripture\u2014because actually, the way I grow, the way I get traction, and the way I move forward is by receiving more deeply than I ever have the same gospel\/good news grace that got me in in the first place, enjoying that more deeply, not graduating beyond it. So Sam, \u201cAmen!\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> But what happens to us, as I think we all experience, is instead of running close to Jesus, we pull away. I\u2019ll read you a quote from your book that I just\u2014I read it out loud to Ann\u2014you wrote, in Chapter 2, I think: \u201cIt is impossible for the affectionate heart of Christ to be over-celebrated,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cmade too much of, exaggerated. It can<em>not <\/em>be plumbed, but it is easily neglected\/forgotten. We draw too little strength from it.\u201d And then you say this: \u201cWhen Christ sees the fallen-ness of the world, and its effect on His people, He moves <em>toward<\/em> that sin and suffering; He does not turn away from it.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tForever, we\u2019ve had the opposite picture!\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014He turns away from me, and I sort of have to turn away from Him\u2014sometimes, I\u2019m like, \u201cWait, wait, wait! Are you saying we <em>can\u2019t<\/em> over-celebrate this?\u201d\u2014you are!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes; I believe what you just read. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014 because you wrote it!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes; He says His heart is gentle and lowly: His heart. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe know from the testimony of Old Testament and New, the heart is not anything frothy\u2014it\u2019s not merely your emotional or affectional life\u2014it\u2019s what pours out <em>most<\/em> deeply from your innermost core. When Jesus tells us what His heart is, He says \u201cgentle and lowly.\u201d Conclusion: we\u2019re never going to overstate the wondrous, endless patience and love of His heart\u2014we will <em>under<\/em>state it; it\u2019s all we\u2019re ever doing!\u2014but we can\u2019t go <em>beyond<\/em> that ceiling. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd again, this is consistent with the testimony of the Old Testament: \u201cThe Lord, the Lord, <em>slow<\/em> to anger, <em>abounding<\/em> in steadfast love [emphasis added],\u201d\u2014Exodus 34,\u00a0 which is picked up, time and again, throughout the Old Testament\u2014<em>not<\/em> the God I think is naturally there: \u201cThe Lord, the Lord, tepid and calculating in steadfast love,\u201d\u2014no! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is, as you say, Dave: we picture God as the photo-negative of [who He is]. It <em>feels <\/em>very morally serious to make much of holiness and to say, \u201cOh, hang on! No, tap the brakes on His grace.\u201d That <em>feels <\/em>right because we know, way down deep, we are guilty sinners. But actually, we\u2019re dishonoring Christ. We\u2019re free to honor Christ by letting His forgiveness loom larger than all of our guilt, shame, and regret. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And you know, as I\u2019m listening, I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWell, the other side of that is: \u201cIf I celebrate it too much\u2014and even as a parent\u2014if I\u2019m <em>only <\/em>all-loving, my kids are going to run amuck. They\u2019re going to take advantage of me. They\u2019re going to break every law because: \u2018Dad\u2019s going to forgive,\u2019 \u2018Mom\u2019s going to forgive,\u2019 \u2018It\u2019s no big deal; God\u2019s the same way.\u2019\u201d Talk about that balance.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes, we do\u2014do that\u2014don\u2019t we? But love in the Bible, is not leniency; love is not tolerance; love is not looking the other way. Hebrews 12: \u201cGod disciplines\u2019\u2019\u2014the Greek word, <em>paideia<\/em>; it means \u201ctraining\u201d\u2014God <em>trains <\/em>us; and that is, at times, painful. He\u2019s pruning us. If we prune a branch\u2014if that branch has any feelings, it\u2019s going to say, \u201cOuch!\u201d when that branch gets sliced off\u2014but it\u2019s, ultimately, for longer-term flourishing and fruitfulness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGod loves us too much to let us coast through life, while He looks the other way, and letting us remain the shallow, twaddling people we would all be if pain doesn\u2019t come into our lives. He loves us enough to\u2014in His tender, Fatherly, sovereign way\u2014send pain to help us to grow and deepen. We just have to be sure what we mean by <em>love<\/em>: God\u2019s love in the Bible and our love for our own kids.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Dane\u2014I\u2019m curious\u2014talk about the Dane that is understanding this now in comparison to what your life looked like <em>before<\/em> you had a deeper understanding of this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> C.S. Lewis has a little essay\u2014it\u2019s two pages\u2014called \u201cThree Kinds of Men.\u201d He says there are three kinds of people in the world: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNumber one: people who throw out all the rules. They don\u2019t care; they\u2019re breaking the law, and they don\u2019t have any conscience whatever\u2014person number one. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPerson number two: those who <em>know <\/em>they should fly right\u2014either they\u2019re to follow the Ten Commandments, or their own conscience, or whatever\u2014but they do it like paying a tax, hoping there\u2019s enough left over for them to live on. So: \u201cAlright, God; I know in the Scripture you\u2019re telling me to do this; alright, I\u2019ll do it. But I hope there\u2019s enough for me to enjoy my life <em>after<\/em> I do all of that.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe says person number three: Are those, who actually have collapsed into the delicious freefall of knowing that it is, as they are yielding themselves to God, that actually that is their deepest joy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ve lived most of my life as person number two. And if I\u2019m totally honest, that\u2019s who I still am. I can experience person number three for like 15-second blips at a time\u2014[Laughter]\u2014like we\u2019re enjoying it right now, because we\u2019re talking about this! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> <em>Fifteen seconds<\/em>! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> But in an hour, I\u2019ll be right back into, you know, grumbling, like the people of Israel. So the question isn\u2019t: \u201cCan you do certain things?\u201d The question is: \u201cCan you <em>enjoy<\/em> God?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> And the way to <em>enjoy<\/em> Him\u2014actually, to have fellowship\/friendship with God\u2014is to know His deepest heart. If we think that He\u2019s got a clipboard in His hand, and He\u2019s taking notes on how we\u2019re doing\u2014and there\u2019s a good side and a bad side, and we\u2019ll see how it all ledgers out at the end\u2014forget it! That\u2019s not sustainable; you can\u2019t do that! You can only do that for a certain amount of time, and then you will crash and burn, or give up the faith or something. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut what if, as we go stumbling our way through the Christian life, we are okay?\u2014because at every point, Christ\u2019s grip of us is stronger than our grip of Him; and He\u2019s going to see us through. And as we fail\u2014as we simply bring that failure to Him afresh\u2014His own deepest joy is to pull us into His heart all over again; that\u2019s a win-win.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I just want to respond to that; because I\u2019m looking over at my wife, and she\u2019s in tears <em>again.<\/em> Way to go, Dane! [Laughter] You\u2019ve got my wife crying again!\u2014[Laughter]\u2014like all during this interview and the previous one. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd let me ask you [Ann]: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf this is <em>why<\/em>? I\u2019m thinking you\u2019ve grown up, so often in your life, believing in a God, who was all the things Dane just said\u2014a clipboard: \u201cYou\u2019ve got to measure up,\u201d \u201c\u2026measure up,\u201d\u2014and you\u2019re a\/you came from the Barons: \u201cWe are the <em>best<\/em>!\u201d; so you don\u2019t just try to be good;\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, you\u2019re a failure if you <em>aren\u2019t<\/em> the best.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014\u201cYou <em>are <\/em>the best!\u201d And so you, often, felt like you were failing God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd early in our marriage, we would have\u2014I shouldn\u2019t have had a conflict with you about it\u2014but I\u2019m like, \u201c<em>That\u2019s not who He is! He doesn\u2019t feel that way about you!\u201d <\/em>And I\u2019m saying it just like this\u2014like that sounds real loving; doesn\u2019t it?\u2014\u201c<em>Come on! <\/em>That\u2019s not who God is!!\u201d [Laughter] I\u2019m <em>shaming<\/em> her, trying to convince her that God\u2019s a loving God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was always, you know, leaning more toward the love of God; you were more toward the Law\u2014is that what\u2019s going on?\u2014you\u2019re sitting here, going, \u201cOh, this is so beautiful; because it\u2019s so right\u201d? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think, growing up, because of having to <em>strive<\/em> and to work, I felt like, \u201cThat\u2019s what God\u2019s like; He has this clipboard,\u201d exactly what you explained. And I think so many of us feel like, even though we are new creatures in Christ, we feel a sense of: \u201cI\u2019m not measuring up, and I\u2019m continuing to fail.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBecause of my past\u2014like I have abuse in my background\u2014I feel like I\u2019m not good enough; I\u2019m not worthy enough. And so I think what\u2019s happening is that Jesus\u2014and I <em>know <\/em>this Jesus now; I feel like I have been set free\u2014but I lived under that yoke of <em>trying <\/em>and striving, and it was <em>so heavy<\/em>. I <em>love<\/em> that Jesus offers us freedom; that He says, \u201cYou\u2019re my <em>child! <\/em>You\u2019re my daughter; I <em>delight<\/em> in you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And I think it\u2019s a good reminder. I think that\u2019s why, as people read your book, Dane, I feel like people will be set free into the <em>true<\/em> gospel.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> May it be.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think they will; I have been!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, what do you say to Ann?\u2014what do you say to a person believing that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> A couple of things come to mind. One is: \u201cWow! You too?!\u201d [Laughter] That\u2019s one thought that comes to mind. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnother is: \u201cWhat do you guys think about this?\u201d\u2014what you just described: the inner psychology of what you just laid out\u2014I suspect\/actually, I <em>believe<\/em> that\u2019s <em>not<\/em> unique to one type of personality, or one Enneagram type, or one side of the Myers-Briggs, or one kind of upbringing. We might have an upbringing that exacerbates it, heightens it, makes it stronger\u2014that Law feeling\u2014but I think that\u2019s in all of us. We <em>all<\/em> are born\u2014one thing the fall did\u2014original sin is it entrenched in our minds dark thoughts of God and of Christ.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne Scripture that comes to mind is Saul being on the road, persecuting Christians, in Acts 9. The risen Lord Jesus does <em>not<\/em> say to him, as He knocks him on the ground lovingly, \u201cHey, dude! Why are you persecuting believers?\u201d And He doesn\u2019t say, \u201cWhy are you persecuting My disciples?\u201d He says, \u201cWhy are you persecuting Me?\u201d The reason we can stand and look Him in the face, and actually be embraced by Him, is we are His own body parts; that\u2019s how He feels about us. If I stub my toe\u2014I don\u2019t give it a pep talk\u2014I want it to be healed, and soothed, and helped, and tenderly cared for.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> So even if it\u2019s <em>our own<\/em> sin and folly, as well as the affliction and suffering we\u2019ve experienced at the hands of others, He wants us to be <em>healed<\/em>. We are His own body. That\u2019s very comforting.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When we read in the Bible that we are united with Christ, we often think about that in some abstract sense. Certainly, it\u2019s a metaphor; but it\u2019s also a reality that we are intimately connected with Christ. What happens in our lives: He is with us in that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDane Ortlund has been joining us today to talk about how Jesus is gentle and lowly\/His heart for all of us, who are sinners and sufferers. Dane has written a book by that title. It\u2019s a book we\u2019ve got in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center. You can order your copy from us. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to get a copy of <em>Gentle and Lowly <\/em>by Dane Ortlund, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order the book by phone. Again, the title of the book is <em>Gentle and Lowly. <\/em>Order online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, you have probably heard already today that this is what\u2019s known as Giving Tuesday. We\u2019ve had Black Friday, and Local Business Saturday, and Cyber Monday\u2014we\u2019ve had all of that\u2014today is Giving Tuesday. It\u2019s a day when ministries like <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>are asking friends to consider a special yearend gift to help with the ongoing work of these ministries.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs we enter into the Christmas season\/as we approach the end of the year, this yearend giving is so significant\/so important. We <em>really need <\/em>to hear from you in the next few weeks. In fact, there\u2019s some extra incentive for you to give today, on Giving Tuesday. First of all, whatever donation you make today is going to be matched, dollar for dollar, thanks to the generosity of some friends of the ministry, who have put together a matching-gift fund of $1.5 million. Every donation we receive, we\u2019re able to deduct an equal amount from that matching-gift fund and match your donation, dollar for dollar. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn addition, we want to say, \u201cThank you for your support,\u201d by sending you a copy of Dane Ortlund\u2019s new devotional from the book of Psalms: 150 devotions from the hymnbook of the Bible<em>. <\/em>Dane\u2019s book is called, <em>In the Lord, I Take Refuge. <\/em>It\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> devotional to have as you begin the new year. We\u2019ll also send you a deck of playing cards. On each of these cards there\u2019s a conversation starter for you, as a couple, or for you as a family. The book and the cards are our thank-you gift for you today when you make a Giving Tuesday donation to support <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, whatever donation you make is going to be matched, dollar for dollar. We hope to hear from you; you can give online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call to make a donation at 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d And let me just say, \u201cThanks,\u201d in advance, for your support\/your vote of confidence in the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today, <\/em>and for letting us know how God is using this ministry in your life, in your marriage, and in your family. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can be back with us, again, tomorrow when we\u2019re going to talk about how we reconcile the fact that the gentle and lowly Jesus will one day come and judge the earth and bring final judgment. How does that make sense? Dane Ortlund will talk more about that tomorrow with Dave and Ann Wilson. I hope you can be with us for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:26:40"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["24.41M"],"filesize_raw":["25599682"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-307311.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-307311.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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rough days, it's easy to see God as our #1 critic. Is He fighting for us\u2014or fed up with us? Author Dane Ortlund examines whether God's adding the unbearable weight of perfection on top of our pain ... or if it's true His burden is light.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-11-30.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane: <\/strong>Jesus says His heart is gentle and lowly\u2014His heart\u2014this is consistent with the testimony of the Old Testament: \u201cThe Lord, the Lord, <em>slow<\/em> to anger, <em>abounding<\/em> in steadfast love [emphasis added],\u201d\u2014Exodus 34, which is picked up, time and again, throughout the Old Testament. We picture God as the photo-negative of this; because we know, way down deep, we are guilty sinners. We\u2019re free to honor Christ by letting His forgiveness loom larger than all of our guilt, shame, and regret. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today, <\/em>where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife App.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife<\/em>\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014<em>Today.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Have you ever heard someone say, \u201cIf I walked into the church, the walls would come down.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> My brother said that; I\u2019ve heard a lot of people say that, actually.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Me too.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> But I remember my brother saying that. His thought was, \u201cI have so much sin in my life; there\u2019s no way that a sinner like me can be accepted in church.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Although he never told us that! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I mean, it\u2019s what we <em>think<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We think that God would <em>never<\/em> embrace a sinner, and the truth is so much different and more beautiful than that. And that\u2019s what we\u2019re going to talk about today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut, you know, before we get there, we\u2019ve got David Robbins in the studio with us today, the president of FamilyLife. He\u2019s here because December is such a crucial moment in the life of FamilyLife [as a] ministry. David\u2019s going to talk about that, so tell us why December is such a pivotal time in our ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Well, it\u2019s really simple. What happens over the next few weeks will determine the amount of ministry that we will be able to do in the year to come. Like many ministries and non-profits, so much of our giving [from] people, who generously donate to FamilyLife, comes at the end of the year. When I think about this year, 2021 has been a vivid reminder of why we need to stay deeply committed to Jesus in our homes. That\u2019s why, at FamilyLife, we are doubling down on this vision of every home becoming a godly home; because that\u2019s when people will find satisfaction in their families and in their lives.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are <em>committed<\/em> to it, and we are seeing our engagement on radio and podcasting grow; it\u2019s grown 84 percent this year of 2021. We\u2019re thankful for that growth, but we want to reach even more homes. Your gift, this yearend, can help us engage more homes with the gospel and the ways of Jesus that can be lived out among families. That\u2019s why I want to invite you and challenge you to give this yearend if you can. Every gift matters. Whatever you are able to give, we are so grateful for it; and we invite you to please join the team.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and so, as David said, we need you. As we are rolling into December, this is our December <em>match<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is the time to give; because of that match, it will be <em>doubled<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Because we\u2019ve had some generous donors give up to $1.5 million.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014which is amazing!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014which is a miracle from God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Thinking, as you give, that\u2019s going to be matched by that. I hope you join us and make a yearend gift to FamilyLife. You can do that; just go to FamilyLifeToday.com, or call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And as a \u201cThank you,\u201d for your giving\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014this is kind of fun\u2014we\u2019re going to send you a couple gifts as just a special \u201cThank you,\u201d for helping us meet this generous match. We\u2019re going to send you some conversational playing cards, and we\u2019re also going to send you a devotional.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, which is written by our guest today, who\u2019s in the studio: Dane Ortlund.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThanks for being with us today, Dane. Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Thank you. Good to talk with you guys.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And we\u2019ve already spent a day\u2014boy, what a program\u2014talking about the heart of Jesus being gentle and lowly\u2014which is the title of your book, <em>Gentle and Lowly<\/em>\u2014which is a book on that\/the very heart of Jesus, which is so paradigm-shifting.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> If you haven\u2019t picked up the book, you need to pick it up; read it\u2014put it beside your bed, even if you read a few pages every night\u2014because it will transform your view of Jesus and God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and obviously, you\u2019re a pastor in the Chicago area; married how many years?\u201420?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Twenty.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Coming up on 20, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, we get into the idea that Jesus is so much different than a lot of us think and behave. How does that affect how we approach Him?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know, as a pastor\u2014and I was a pastor\u2014often, people sort of were afraid of <em>me<\/em>. Like, as a Detroit Lions chaplain, if I walked into the Detroit Lions locker room, which I did daily, every once in a while, somebody would say, \u201cOh, sorry, pastor!\u201d when they cursed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Like I couldn\u2019t be around that, and they shouldn\u2019t ever do that around me, and they wanted to run away from me. My response\/I was always like, \u201cYou don\u2019t understand me at all. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You\u2019re not judging, yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cI don\u2019t think any less of you because of that. I actually would <em>love <\/em>to spend time with you.\u201d I felt that\u2014and even, I know you\u2019ve experienced the same thing as a pastor\u2014and I know Jesus felt that, but that\u2019s <em>not<\/em> His heart. Talk about how we approach Him if that\u2019s who He is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Boy, I\u2019ve experienced that, too\u2014not in an NFL locker room\u2014but people thinking they have to suddenly <em>really <\/em>watch what they say when they\u2019re around you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> How awful! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSinclair Ferguson is an author who makes this point in one of his books: \u201cPeople view me or you in our preaching. They form a picture of <em>Christ<\/em> based on how we are, not mainly what we say,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cbut how we are looking people in the eyes, and the tone and posture with which we are conducting ourselves toward [them].\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0I want to give people\u2014to come back around to your question now\u2014I want to give people the <em>aroma<\/em> of Jesus Christ. They might say, \u201cYou know, I didn\u2019t know that word that he used; I didn\u2019t quite follow the second point. I don\u2019t know about that point of application, but I am <em>drawn in<\/em>; I\u2019m attracted to this kind of <em>person<\/em>.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I want to be just a little modest\u2014in my own fallen, finite way\u2014glimmer of what Jesus Himself is like; because I want to defiantly correct the deep, deep, deep intuition and reflex that people have, that they can\u2019t approach Christ except at their <em>best<\/em>. Actually, the testimony of Scripture\u2014and this is the way God is in the Old Testament prophets\u2014is that He is drawn to us when we are at our lowest. I just want to keep immersing people in that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It reminds me: we recently interviewed your dad. Ray, your dad, has this magnetic personality. He pulls out and calls out the greatness in everybody that he met; he asks them questions.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I felt a sense of <em>warmth<\/em>. I don\u2019t know if that was your experience, growing up\u2014and I don\u2019t know him, obviously, anywhere near like you did\u2014but I <em>felt<\/em>, just what you said, drawn in.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We were drawn to him! Like, he speaks life everywhere he goes; and I think it\u2019s exactly what Jesus did.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Amen.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> He could <em>see<\/em> the sin; but He still loved, and wooed, and called people toward Him to the point\u2014and of course, people were following Him\u2014because who wouldn\u2019t want to follow that person?!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> They did, yes. I mean, why is a \u201csinful woman\u201d washing His feet with her hair when He\u2019s hanging out with all the religious PhDs of the day?\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> \u2014all the <em>impressive people!<\/em> But these are the people\u2014the destitute, the outcast; those who are at the end of their rope\u2014in other words, really, we see ourselves all the time in these people. They can\u2019t stay away!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> They find Him irresistible, so praise God!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019m sure you\u2019ve heard the pushback. The pushback is: \u201cWhoa, whoa; wait! We\u2019re supposed to fear God; we <em>should be <\/em>afraid of Him. We should be afraid to be near His holiness; because we\u2019re full of sin, and we\u2019re dirty. That\u2019s the God that I know, and that\u2019s who God is.\u201d What do you say to that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s a very understandable feeling; and actually, I believe that, racquet-ing out the gospel. That is true! I am a dirty, messy wretch; I\u2019m a train wreck! But then, if you bring the gospel in\u2014and the reason we have to go to church every week; the reason we have to read our Bible every day\u2014is because we keep forgetting this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen you bring the gospel in\u2014actually, you are told what you feel about your state of cleanliness: your state of being not guilty, but acquitted, and free to leave the court room\u2014you don\u2019t <em>feel <\/em>that way; but actually, in the gospel, because of what Christ did, that <em>is<\/em> who you are! Therefore, it feels scandalous. If you\u2019re in Christ, you\u2019re free to <em>feel<\/em> totally forgiven and to stop. That\u2019s very deeply against our intuitions, but it\u2019s gloriously true.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, it reminds me: we recently interviewed a friend of yours, Sam Allberry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We\u2019re going to have you listen to this clip of Sam, and we want you to respond to it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Previous <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Broadcast]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Sam:<\/strong> The flesh has its own fleshly way of dealing with the flesh. [Laughter] And we think, \u201cOkay, I need to man up! I need to just kind of fight harder.\u201d But Titus 2 says, \u201cIt is the grace of God that teaches us to say, \u2018No,\u2019 to ungodliness.\u201d The only way we can fight these very, very deep-seated impulses that we find within us is we need to keep receiving the grace of God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Studio]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Amen. It takes a Bible to believe that; because our own natural intuitions are: \u201cYes, I\u2019ve screwed up! Okay, let me try to chip away at this.\u201d I love what Sam says there!\u2014\u201cWe use the flesh to battle against our own felt flesh-ness,\u201d\u2014and we have <em>a lot <\/em>of flesh going on! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut actually, we are softened, and melted, and lifted into change. We can white-knuckle external behavioral change\u2014\u201cI can cut carbs and get up earlier!\u201d \u201cI can <em>make<\/em> myself do it!\u201d But actually, that\u2019s not changing me\u2014that\u2019s just surface-level\u2014that\u2019s not from the inside-out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat Sam is saying there is so <em>wonderfully <\/em>true. Actually, this is a sustainable Christian life\u2014if that is true, according to Scripture\u2014because actually, the way I grow, the way I get traction, and the way I move forward is by receiving more deeply than I ever have the same gospel\/good news grace that got me in in the first place, enjoying that more deeply, not graduating beyond it. So Sam, \u201cAmen!\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> But what happens to us, as I think we all experience, is instead of running close to Jesus, we pull away. I\u2019ll read you a quote from your book that I just\u2014I read it out loud to Ann\u2014you wrote, in Chapter 2, I think: \u201cIt is impossible for the affectionate heart of Christ to be over-celebrated,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cmade too much of, exaggerated. It can<em>not <\/em>be plumbed, but it is easily neglected\/forgotten. We draw too little strength from it.\u201d And then you say this: \u201cWhen Christ sees the fallen-ness of the world, and its effect on His people, He moves <em>toward<\/em> that sin and suffering; He does not turn away from it.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tForever, we\u2019ve had the opposite picture!\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014He turns away from me, and I sort of have to turn away from Him\u2014sometimes, I\u2019m like, \u201cWait, wait, wait! Are you saying we <em>can\u2019t<\/em> over-celebrate this?\u201d\u2014you are!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes; I believe what you just read. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014 because you wrote it!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes; He says His heart is gentle and lowly: His heart. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe know from the testimony of Old Testament and New, the heart is not anything frothy\u2014it\u2019s not merely your emotional or affectional life\u2014it\u2019s what pours out <em>most<\/em> deeply from your innermost core. When Jesus tells us what His heart is, He says \u201cgentle and lowly.\u201d Conclusion: we\u2019re never going to overstate the wondrous, endless patience and love of His heart\u2014we will <em>under<\/em>state it; it\u2019s all we\u2019re ever doing!\u2014but we can\u2019t go <em>beyond<\/em> that ceiling. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd again, this is consistent with the testimony of the Old Testament: \u201cThe Lord, the Lord, <em>slow<\/em> to anger, <em>abounding<\/em> in steadfast love [emphasis added],\u201d\u2014Exodus 34,\u00a0 which is picked up, time and again, throughout the Old Testament\u2014<em>not<\/em> the God I think is naturally there: \u201cThe Lord, the Lord, tepid and calculating in steadfast love,\u201d\u2014no! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is, as you say, Dave: we picture God as the photo-negative of [who He is]. It <em>feels <\/em>very morally serious to make much of holiness and to say, \u201cOh, hang on! No, tap the brakes on His grace.\u201d That <em>feels <\/em>right because we know, way down deep, we are guilty sinners. But actually, we\u2019re dishonoring Christ. We\u2019re free to honor Christ by letting His forgiveness loom larger than all of our guilt, shame, and regret. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And you know, as I\u2019m listening, I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWell, the other side of that is: \u201cIf I celebrate it too much\u2014and even as a parent\u2014if I\u2019m <em>only <\/em>all-loving, my kids are going to run amuck. They\u2019re going to take advantage of me. They\u2019re going to break every law because: \u2018Dad\u2019s going to forgive,\u2019 \u2018Mom\u2019s going to forgive,\u2019 \u2018It\u2019s no big deal; God\u2019s the same way.\u2019\u201d Talk about that balance.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes, we do\u2014do that\u2014don\u2019t we? But love in the Bible, is not leniency; love is not tolerance; love is not looking the other way. Hebrews 12: \u201cGod disciplines\u2019\u2019\u2014the Greek word, <em>paideia<\/em>; it means \u201ctraining\u201d\u2014God <em>trains <\/em>us; and that is, at times, painful. He\u2019s pruning us. If we prune a branch\u2014if that branch has any feelings, it\u2019s going to say, \u201cOuch!\u201d when that branch gets sliced off\u2014but it\u2019s, ultimately, for longer-term flourishing and fruitfulness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGod loves us too much to let us coast through life, while He looks the other way, and letting us remain the shallow, twaddling people we would all be if pain doesn\u2019t come into our lives. He loves us enough to\u2014in His tender, Fatherly, sovereign way\u2014send pain to help us to grow and deepen. We just have to be sure what we mean by <em>love<\/em>: God\u2019s love in the Bible and our love for our own kids.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Dane\u2014I\u2019m curious\u2014talk about the Dane that is understanding this now in comparison to what your life looked like <em>before<\/em> you had a deeper understanding of this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> C.S. Lewis has a little essay\u2014it\u2019s two pages\u2014called \u201cThree Kinds of Men.\u201d He says there are three kinds of people in the world: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNumber one: people who throw out all the rules. They don\u2019t care; they\u2019re breaking the law, and they don\u2019t have any conscience whatever\u2014person number one. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPerson number two: those who <em>know <\/em>they should fly right\u2014either they\u2019re to follow the Ten Commandments, or their own conscience, or whatever\u2014but they do it like paying a tax, hoping there\u2019s enough left over for them to live on. So: \u201cAlright, God; I know in the Scripture you\u2019re telling me to do this; alright, I\u2019ll do it. But I hope there\u2019s enough for me to enjoy my life <em>after<\/em> I do all of that.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe says person number three: Are those, who actually have collapsed into the delicious freefall of knowing that it is, as they are yielding themselves to God, that actually that is their deepest joy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ve lived most of my life as person number two. And if I\u2019m totally honest, that\u2019s who I still am. I can experience person number three for like 15-second blips at a time\u2014[Laughter]\u2014like we\u2019re enjoying it right now, because we\u2019re talking about this! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> <em>Fifteen seconds<\/em>! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> But in an hour, I\u2019ll be right back into, you know, grumbling, like the people of Israel. So the question isn\u2019t: \u201cCan you do certain things?\u201d The question is: \u201cCan you <em>enjoy<\/em> God?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> And the way to <em>enjoy<\/em> Him\u2014actually, to have fellowship\/friendship with God\u2014is to know His deepest heart. If we think that He\u2019s got a clipboard in His hand, and He\u2019s taking notes on how we\u2019re doing\u2014and there\u2019s a good side and a bad side, and we\u2019ll see how it all ledgers out at the end\u2014forget it! That\u2019s not sustainable; you can\u2019t do that! You can only do that for a certain amount of time, and then you will crash and burn, or give up the faith or something. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut what if, as we go stumbling our way through the Christian life, we are okay?\u2014because at every point, Christ\u2019s grip of us is stronger than our grip of Him; and He\u2019s going to see us through. And as we fail\u2014as we simply bring that failure to Him afresh\u2014His own deepest joy is to pull us into His heart all over again; that\u2019s a win-win.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I just want to respond to that; because I\u2019m looking over at my wife, and she\u2019s in tears <em>again.<\/em> Way to go, Dane! [Laughter] You\u2019ve got my wife crying again!\u2014[Laughter]\u2014like all during this interview and the previous one. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd let me ask you [Ann]: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf this is <em>why<\/em>? I\u2019m thinking you\u2019ve grown up, so often in your life, believing in a God, who was all the things Dane just said\u2014a clipboard: \u201cYou\u2019ve got to measure up,\u201d \u201c\u2026measure up,\u201d\u2014and you\u2019re a\/you came from the Barons: \u201cWe are the <em>best<\/em>!\u201d; so you don\u2019t just try to be good;\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, you\u2019re a failure if you <em>aren\u2019t<\/em> the best.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014\u201cYou <em>are <\/em>the best!\u201d And so you, often, felt like you were failing God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd early in our marriage, we would have\u2014I shouldn\u2019t have had a conflict with you about it\u2014but I\u2019m like, \u201c<em>That\u2019s not who He is! He doesn\u2019t feel that way about you!\u201d <\/em>And I\u2019m saying it just like this\u2014like that sounds real loving; doesn\u2019t it?\u2014\u201c<em>Come on! <\/em>That\u2019s not who God is!!\u201d [Laughter] I\u2019m <em>shaming<\/em> her, trying to convince her that God\u2019s a loving God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was always, you know, leaning more toward the love of God; you were more toward the Law\u2014is that what\u2019s going on?\u2014you\u2019re sitting here, going, \u201cOh, this is so beautiful; because it\u2019s so right\u201d? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think, growing up, because of having to <em>strive<\/em> and to work, I felt like, \u201cThat\u2019s what God\u2019s like; He has this clipboard,\u201d exactly what you explained. And I think so many of us feel like, even though we are new creatures in Christ, we feel a sense of: \u201cI\u2019m not measuring up, and I\u2019m continuing to fail.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBecause of my past\u2014like I have abuse in my background\u2014I feel like I\u2019m not good enough; I\u2019m not worthy enough. And so I think what\u2019s happening is that Jesus\u2014and I <em>know <\/em>this Jesus now; I feel like I have been set free\u2014but I lived under that yoke of <em>trying <\/em>and striving, and it was <em>so heavy<\/em>. I <em>love<\/em> that Jesus offers us freedom; that He says, \u201cYou\u2019re my <em>child! <\/em>You\u2019re my daughter; I <em>delight<\/em> in you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And I think it\u2019s a good reminder. I think that\u2019s why, as people read your book, Dane, I feel like people will be set free into the <em>true<\/em> gospel.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> May it be.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think they will; I have been!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, what do you say to Ann?\u2014what do you say to a person believing that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> A couple of things come to mind. One is: \u201cWow! You too?!\u201d [Laughter] That\u2019s one thought that comes to mind. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnother is: \u201cWhat do you guys think about this?\u201d\u2014what you just described: the inner psychology of what you just laid out\u2014I suspect\/actually, I <em>believe<\/em> that\u2019s <em>not<\/em> unique to one type of personality, or one Enneagram type, or one side of the Myers-Briggs, or one kind of upbringing. We might have an upbringing that exacerbates it, heightens it, makes it stronger\u2014that Law feeling\u2014but I think that\u2019s in all of us. We <em>all<\/em> are born\u2014one thing the fall did\u2014original sin is it entrenched in our minds dark thoughts of God and of Christ.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne Scripture that comes to mind is Saul being on the road, persecuting Christians, in Acts 9. The risen Lord Jesus does <em>not<\/em> say to him, as He knocks him on the ground lovingly, \u201cHey, dude! Why are you persecuting believers?\u201d And He doesn\u2019t say, \u201cWhy are you persecuting My disciples?\u201d He says, \u201cWhy are you persecuting Me?\u201d The reason we can stand and look Him in the face, and actually be embraced by Him, is we are His own body parts; that\u2019s how He feels about us. If I stub my toe\u2014I don\u2019t give it a pep talk\u2014I want it to be healed, and soothed, and helped, and tenderly cared for.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dane:<\/strong> So even if it\u2019s <em>our own<\/em> sin and folly, as well as the affliction and suffering we\u2019ve experienced at the hands of others, He wants us to be <em>healed<\/em>. We are His own body. That\u2019s very comforting.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When we read in the Bible that we are united with Christ, we often think about that in some abstract sense. Certainly, it\u2019s a metaphor; but it\u2019s also a reality that we are intimately connected with Christ. What happens in our lives: He is with us in that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDane Ortlund has been joining us today to talk about how Jesus is gentle and lowly\/His heart for all of us, who are sinners and sufferers. Dane has written a book by that title. It\u2019s a book we\u2019ve got in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center. You can order your copy from us. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to get a copy of <em>Gentle and Lowly <\/em>by Dane Ortlund, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order the book by phone. Again, the title of the book is <em>Gentle and Lowly. <\/em>Order online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, you have probably heard already today that this is what\u2019s known as Giving Tuesday. We\u2019ve had Black Friday, and Local Business Saturday, and Cyber Monday\u2014we\u2019ve had all of that\u2014today is Giving Tuesday. It\u2019s a day when ministries like <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>are asking friends to consider a special yearend gift to help with the ongoing work of these ministries.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs we enter into the Christmas season\/as we approach the end of the year, this yearend giving is so significant\/so important. We <em>really need <\/em>to hear from you in the next few weeks. In fact, there\u2019s some extra incentive for you to give today, on Giving Tuesday. First of all, whatever donation you make today is going to be matched, dollar for dollar, thanks to the generosity of some friends of the ministry, who have put together a matching-gift fund of $1.5 million. Every donation we receive, we\u2019re able to deduct an equal amount from that matching-gift fund and match your donation, dollar for dollar. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn addition, we want to say, \u201cThank you for your support,\u201d by sending you a copy of Dane Ortlund\u2019s new devotional from the book of Psalms: 150 devotions from the hymnbook of the Bible<em>. <\/em>Dane\u2019s book is called, <em>In the Lord, I Take Refuge. <\/em>It\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> devotional to have as you begin the new year. We\u2019ll also send you a deck of playing cards. On each of these cards there\u2019s a conversation starter for you, as a couple, or for you as a family. The book and the cards are our thank-you gift for you today when you make a Giving Tuesday donation to support <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, whatever donation you make is going to be matched, dollar for dollar. We hope to hear from you; you can give online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call to make a donation at 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d And let me just say, \u201cThanks,\u201d in advance, for your support\/your vote of confidence in the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today, <\/em>and for letting us know how God is using this ministry in your life, in your marriage, and in your family. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can be back with us, again, tomorrow when we\u2019re going to talk about how we reconcile the fact that the gentle and lowly Jesus will one day come and judge the earth and bring final judgment. How does that make sense? Dane Ortlund will talk more about that tomorrow with Dave and Ann Wilson. I hope you can be with us for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. 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