{"id":307292,"date":"2021-11-10T12:49:52","date_gmt":"2021-11-10T17:49:52","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/perfect-love\/"},"modified":"2021-11-10T12:49:52","modified_gmt":"2021-11-10T17:49:52","slug":"perfect-love","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/perfect-love\/","title":{"rendered":"Perfect Love"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Navigating today&#8217;s LGBTQ culture is confusing and sometimes scary to some Christians, but Rebecca McLaughlin highlights the truth of God&#8217;s perfect love and what that means for our relationships.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-11-10.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:26:30","filesize":"24.27M","filesize_raw":"25444928","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848,2814,2806],"tags":[7008,2209,2588],"podcast_series":[8487],"cwp_profile":[9742],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307292","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","category-releasing-your-child","category-spiritual-development","tag-lgbtq","tag-parenting","tag-teens","podcast_series-10-questions-every-teen-should-ask","cwp_profile-rebecca-mclaughlin","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307292\/perfect-love","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307292\/perfect-love","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"IkmJce2e87\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/perfect-love\/\">Perfect Love<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/perfect-love\/embed\/#?secret=IkmJce2e87\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Perfect Love&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"IkmJce2e87\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-11-10.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-11-10.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I recently talked to a guy\u2014I think it was last week\u2014and I don\u2019t know how we got on this topic. I think he brought it up; but he said he cancelled his <em>Sports Illustrated<\/em> subscription the day they put Kaitlyn Jenner on the cover as the athlete of the year; because Bruce Jenner became a woman, Kaitlyn. They had her on the cover of the <em>Sports Illustrated<\/em>. I said, \u201cWhat do you mean you cancelled it?\u201d He goes, \u201cThis wasn\u2019t an athletic move. I didn\u2019t like what they did, so I cancelled. I mean, I just cancelled my subscription.\u201d I was like, \u201cWhoa!\u201d I thought, \u201cHe\u2019s telling me that; but if he would say that out loud publicly, <em>he<\/em> would get cancelled.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWelcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, it\u2019s one of those things that, if you say something like that in this culture that is not the popular view\u2014and you can pick almost any popular subject\u2014if you are going sort of in a different minority position on it, you sort of get cancelled. We live in a cancel culture: \u201cI\u2019m not going to follow you, listen to you, respect you anymore.\u201d What\u2019s up with that? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, I think our culture is really shifting right now, too; and I think many of us feel like we\u2019re walking on egg shells; we don\u2019t want to offend. It\u2019s not even\u2014it can be offensive\u2014but then the result of what we said can be volatile. If you\u2019ve been on Twitter<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> any amount of time, it is a crazy world right now, where people are being attacked. I think, in some ways, it is good that we are careful with what we\u2019re saying, and we need to be loving in all respects; but you are right. We are living in a culture that is cancelling everything. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I even read\u2014this isn\u2019t just in the Christian world or the religious world\u2014I read this morning that a pretty famous broadcaster in the NBA said: \u201cI\u2019m done. I\u2019m quitting; because all of our conversations are about what I cannot say publicly, because I\u2019ll get attacked.\u201d He goes, \u201cI\u2019m not going to live like this anymore.\u201d I thought, \u201cWow; it\u2019s interesting that he says we are afraid to make any comment publicly, because of being cancelled.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And think about what our kids are dealing with on any sort of social media platform. I think, more than ever, they are really careful. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I think our kids in the church have a lot of questions about some important issues. There is a book that came out, written by the author, who is sitting across the table from us. Rebecca McLaughlin is sitting in here with us. You wrote a book called \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>10 Questions Every Teen Should Ask (and Answer) About Christianity<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean, you\u2019ve got an unbelievable pedigree in terms of PhD in Renaissance Literature and just a background in defending the faith and writing. You wrote a book that was well-received called <em>Confronting Christianity<\/em>. This is sort of the teenage version of that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You\u2019ve been to seminary. You have three kids; you are married. How many years have you been married? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> Thirteen.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And your kids are\u2014the oldest is 11? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Youngest is going to be three soon. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> In the book, you go through ten questions. You didn\u2019t hide from some of the biggies. Several of them are about evidence: \u201cHow do you know the Bible is true?\u201d and \u201cHeaven and Hell; \u201cIs Christianity just for me?\u201d But you have a couple chapters in there about gender, diversity, sexuality. Let\u2019s get into some of those; but why put those in? Do you feel like\u2014obviously, you do\u2014these are important questions for your teenager? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> Yes; yes. As long as I can remember, I\u2019ve been a follower of Jesus. As long as I can remember, I\u2019ve been attracted to women. Because I\u2019ve always been a follower of Jesus, it was not something I chose to pursue as a teenager or as a young adult. I\u2019ve chosen to marry a guy rather than a girl. I think, if I was not a Christian, most likely\u2014I mean, who knows?\u2014but most likely, I\u2019d be married to a woman today instead of to a man. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think for many people, hearing that, they are like, \u201cOh my goodness! What kind of strange creature are you?!\u201d It doesn\u2019t really fit into many of our categories; because we tend to think of the church over here, and then the LGBT community over there. What we tend not to realize is there is actually quite a lot of overlap. It\u2019s like the Venn Diagrams you learn about in middle school. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> You have the circles that have some overlap. The way that we, in churches, have often navigated this is like ignore people, within our communities, who may experience same-sex attraction, or who may really sort of struggle with their sense of themselves as a guy or as a girl. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve sort of silenced folks, or kind of come down really hard and been like, \u201cWell, wait a minute; what\u2019s going on here? Are you <em>really<\/em> a follower of Jesus if this is an area of temptation and struggle for you?\u201d in ways that we probably don\u2019t if it\u2019s somebody, who is struggling with heterosexual desire, for example. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> Then we\u2019ve created this idea that it\u2019s the LGBT folks <em>out there<\/em>. We very much, too often, I think, have stigmatized or had this idea about what gay, or lesbian, or transgender, or bisexual people are like. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, especially for kids growing up today, as they start to meet friends at school\u2014or if they go off to college and have roommates or friends, who do identify as gay, or lesbian, or as transgender\u2014they\u2019ll go through this process of thinking: \u201cWait a minute! I used to think the Bible said it wasn\u2019t okay, for example, to pursue a same-sex sexual relationship; but then I met this really nice guy who is gay. He seems to have a great relationship with his partner, and he seems like he is a really committed sort of person,\u201d\u2014like all of the things they may have been raised to believe about gay people don\u2019t seem to fit with this guy. So then, they say, \u201cWell, now, I don\u2019t really know that I believe what the Bible says is true.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, we have a hard time, sometimes, knowing what to repent of. I think the two things that we need to do, on all sorts of cultural issues right now as Christians\u2014we need to repent and believe\u2014that should be deep in our DNA; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> That\u2019s how we become Christians in the first place. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> We repent, and we believe. I think we need to recognize there are meaningful things that we, as a Christians, need to repent of in the way that we have too often treated\u2014gay and lesbian folk outside the church or people who struggle with same-sex attraction within the church\u2014but we also need to believe what the Bible says. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m going to bring another area in here because they are so interlocked in people\u2019s minds. I think, sadly, they\u2019ve been quite interlocked in sort of the history of Christian sin. It kind of goes back to your original point of like\u2014today, to not affirm somebody\u2019s transgender identity, for example, isn\u2019t just to be like a little bit dated\u2014or \u201cAren\u2019t you sweet, you, Christians? You aren\u2019t really with the times,\u201d\u2014there is a sense of sort of righteous anger that will come at you\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> \u2014if you don\u2019t affirm somebody\u2019s transition, for example, or somebody saying they are trans. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhere does that come from? The more that I\u2019ve sort of studied this, as somebody who has come from the outside from the UK, and trying to get my bearings in the US in the last decade or so\u2014the more it\u2019s become clear that actually the argument goes like this: \u201cJust as the white \u201860s segregationist used their Bibles to go against interracial marriage, and the desegregation of schools\u2014and all the things that, sadly, many white Christians did\u2014so you, Christians, today are using your Bibles to reject and oppress LGBT folk.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tUntil we fully recognize that part A of that statement is true, and until we are ready to reckon with that, we\u2019re not really going to be able to speak with clarity, and authenticity, and love into our issues today; because for many of our peers today\u2014and especially for our kids\u2019 peers\u2014the transgender rights movement today <em>is<\/em> the new civil rights movement. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe people like us, who aren\u2019t going to affirm gay marriage or aren\u2019t going to affirm transgender identities\u2014this is like the new civil rights movement\u2014it\u2019s not just kind of an agree to disagree situation; it\u2019s a question of deep justice\u2014again, I think we need to sort of take that moment to repent at the same time as we believe what the Scriptures say when it comes to sexuality. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs I\u2019ve mentioned earlier, I\u2019ve always been someone, who is sort of primarily attracted to women. If I had come to the Scripture\u2014like I looked quite carefully in the Scriptures; and if I had found that they said, \u201cYes; no, sure, it\u2019s fine; gay marriage is certainly something that is compatible with being a follower of Jesus,\u201d\u2014I would have probably been quite pleased to find that. That\u2019s not what I found; but instead, I found something more profound, and more beautiful, and more surprising, which is the very reason that God made male and female; the very reason He made sex and sexuality in marriage was to tell us the story of His love for us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s not, when we see the Bible talking about Jesus as like a husband and the church is His wife\u2014that\u2019s not just looking around, like, \u201cOh, human marriage\u2014that looks nice\u2014I\u2019m going to compare Jesus and the church to that,\u201d\u2014no; the actual reason God even made us as sexual beings, and that He even created this kind of relationship, was to give us the tiniest glimpse of Jesus\u2019 passionate love for us. I think understanding <em>that<\/em>, then, puts everything else into perspective\u2014whether it\u2019s your struggle with pornography, or whether it\u2019s your struggle with heterosexual lust, or whether it\u2019s your struggle with same-sex desire\u2014like, for all of us, recognizing that our ultimate lover is Jesus, completely changes the way that we think. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So when you say repent\u2014because there is a belief also that: \u201cOkay, we use the Bible in justice, in civil rights, in slavery,\u201d\u2014you name it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> The problem with the \u201860s segregationists was not that they were too Christian. It was that they weren\u2019t half Christian enough. It wasn\u2019t that they would cling to their Bibles too hard; it was that they were actually completely failing to read their Bibles\u2014or reading it in such an extraordinarily selective\u2014I mean, the kind of interpretive gymnastics that you have to do to justify segregation from the Scriptures is actually about as drastic as the kind you have to do to affirm gay marriage from a Christian perspective. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf we read the Bible, we find that it pulls us in one direction when it comes to racial equality and justice and in a completely different direction when it comes to same-sex sexual relationships. I think, in both cases, we need to come back to the Bible. When I say, \u201crepent and believe,\u201d I mean: \u201cLook at what the Scriptures say. See where our lives, or attitudes, or our treatment of others, doesn\u2019t align with what the Bible says. Then believe what the Bible says is true.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>What\u2019s really fascinating is that even\u2014and this is a point made by a non-Christian historian called Tom Holland in the UK\u2014even the very basis on which folks, who were gay rights advocates, for example, or transgender activists\u2014the basis of their arguments is to say: \u201cLook, all human beings are equal. Those who have been historically oppressed and marginalized shouldn\u2019t be trampled on, but they should be protected. There is sort of this individual uniqueness to everyone and this equality that is regardless of who you are, or where you are, or where you come from, or what you\u2019re doing.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhere do we get those ideas? They are actually straight out of the Bible. They are <em>not<\/em> just self-evident truths that all human beings are created equal; that\u2019s a specifically Christian claim. So folks on both sides, in our current conversations about gender and sexuality\u2014whether or not you realize it\u2014are sort of standing on Christian ground. We just haven\u2019t looked down to see the sort of moral soil beneath our feet, which is only there because of Christianity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Let\u2019s talk about this practically. When your kids come home from school\u2014and they say: \u201cOh, my friend has two moms,\u201d or \u201cMy friend just said she came out; she said she\u2019s gay today,\u201d\u2014talk about how you dialogue with your kids about those conversations or how our listeners could have that dialogue, in a very loving way, but a really honest and biblical way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> Yes; yes. One of the super helpful things for me\u2014because my kids absolutely come home\u2014they have a non-binary friend, who has two moms, for example. One of the things I am able to do is to talk them through the stories of several of our Christian friends. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tI talk them through my friend Rachel\u2019s story, who is on staff with Cru<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, who came to Christ out of a lesbian atheist background when she was an undergrad at Yale. \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tI tell them my friend Lou\u2019s story, who grew up in the church, who has always been attracted to men and really not to women at all, and is living as a single man, serving the Lord with all his heart in our community at church. \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tI\u2019d share a bit of my story which is less exciting in some ways than Rachel\u2019s. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><p>\n\t\t\t\tI want them to know that Christians aren\u2019t different because we necessarily have different patterns of attraction, or different struggles, or different whatever. We are different because Jesus has called us, and that within Jesus\u2019s family, we are going to believe different things and do different things than folks outside. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m going to encourage <em>them<\/em> to love their friends\u2014regardless of who they say they are, or whether they have two mums, or two dads, or one mum and no dad\u2014that actually our disposition <em>always<\/em> needs to be to love. The part of loving someone\/the important part of loving someone is pointing them to Jesus and telling them about His exclusive claims on them. If and when one day they put their trust in Jesus, a whole lot of things will need to change in their lives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, when you say\u2014we\u2019ve talked about repent, and I think we\u2019ve talked about believe\u2014I want to make sure I understand the believe part: \u201cBelieve <em>what<\/em>?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> Believe that sex only belongs in male\/female marriage for Christians; and that actually, same-sex sexual relationships, consistently through the Scriptures, are seen as <em>not<\/em> being appropriate for God\u2019s people. But here is the thing\u2014I like to say this, sometimes, a little bit provocatively\u2014because folks will sometimes say, \u201cThe Bible condemns same-sex relationships.\u201d I say, \u201cNo, it doesn\u2019t. The Bible actually commands same-sex relationships at a level of intimacy that we Christians hardly ever reach.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you think about it, Paul talks about us being one body together. He calls his friend, Onesimus, his very heart. Imagine how awkward that would be if you were to say that to like a male friend\/that \u201cYou\u2019re my very heart.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> He talks about: \u201cus being comrades in arms\u201d \u201cas being knit together in love,\u201d\u2014the language of intimacy\u2014sure, opposite sex as well\u2014but I think particularly same-sex closeness that we see in the New Testament, where Jesus is saying, \u201cGreater love has no one than this that he lay down his life for his friends.\u201d It\u2019s not that we don\u2019t believe in love between people of the same sex; we actually believe in a <em>better<\/em> love between people of the same sex than anything this world has to offer us. And we believe in that because we believe in Jesus. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe know that that is a really close and important relationship; but it\u2019s not a sexual relationship. It\u2019s a different kind of relationship, and likewise we see friendship. I think we need to recognize that sex and marriage are actually beautiful and important gifts from God; but they have a very specific design and purpose, and that it is a <em>different<\/em> design and purpose than other kinds of relationships that also give us different glimpses of Jesus\u2019s love. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, obviously, you mentioned your journey; but I\u2019d love to know: \u201cWhat was that journey like\u2014as you realized: \u2018I\u2019m same-sex attracted; I\u2019m a follower of Christ,\u2019 from a young age\u2014how did that go?\u201d Walk us through that a little bit. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> Oh, I didn\u2019t tell anyone\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, you kept it quiet. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> \u2014which I think is true of a <em>lot<\/em> of Christians. I get emails every week, or more than once a week from people\u2014whether they are 15 or 45\u2014who have <em>never<\/em> talked about their same-sex attraction with their Christian friends or family and are really struggling. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think one of the things we can all be a part of is actually making it something that we can talk about; because Satan\u2019s\u2014one of his <em>greatest<\/em> weapons\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> \u2014against us is making each of us feel like: \u201cWell, <em>your<\/em> struggle is the thing you can\u2019t talk about; you can\u2019t get help with this,\u201d \u201cYour pornography addiction is far too disgusting to talk about to your friend,\u201d or \u201cYour experience of same-sex attraction\u2014nobody is going to understand\u2014they are just going to reject you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think for me, personally, I only started talking to Christian friends in my early 30s; and the reason was I was terrified, if I opened up about this, then all of my female friends would take just half a step away from me\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> \u2014not that they would run, screaming; I knew they weren\u2019t like that\u2014but that they would just take a little half step back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Is that what happened? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> No; what I realized was actually <em>I<\/em> had taken a half step back from them, because they were sharing the real struggles in their life and I <em>wasn\u2019t<\/em>; and I never had. So actually, I hadn\u2019t given them the opportunity to step in alongside me, and to be friends who knew me and loved me, and who will speak truth to me when I need to hear truth, and will speak encouragement and love to me when I need that. I think that is true for all of us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> Whatever our patterns of attraction or whatever our struggles with sin, I think we all need friends in the Lord; and we all need to be people, who others are going to be comfortable opening up with. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Have you talked with your kids about\u2014let\u2019s just say this\u2014your kids would come and talk to you about that. Is that what you would hope is that they would open up? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> I really hope they would; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Some listeners are thinking, \u201cI don\u2019t know if I want my kids to open up about that, because I don\u2019t know how I would respond.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> She knows me; I\u2019m the withdrawer guy. I\u2019m like, \u201cYes, I\u2019d rather not know\u201d; right? [Laughter] You would be like\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I <em>would<\/em> want to know. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And of course, I want to know; but there is a part of the uncomfortable, like, \u201cOh my goodness! What am I going to do with <em>that<\/em>?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cor say?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I\u2019m guessing that you would <em>hope<\/em> your kids would tell you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> Whatever they are struggling with\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> \u2014I hope that they would tell me. I hope they would have other people, as well, around them; because I think we have a profoundly important responsibility, as parents, to disciple our children; but I think, also, God puts all of us in a family that\u2019s broader than even the nuclear family. I would want them to be able to talk with my friend Rachel, or my friend Lou, or others who can give their own angle on the same truth but who can actually walk with them\/alongside them in ways that complement how I do that as their mother as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And talk about your response, if one of your kids came and talked to you about that, or if you had talked to your mum about that, what would you hope the response would be? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> I think the terrifying thing, in particular about this struggle I think\u2014I\u2019m sure it\u2019s, to some extent, true of any struggle you might be bringing to your parents\u2014but I think that worry that: \u201cI\u2019m suddenly going to be seen as like completely other,\u201d or \u201cThere is something really wrong with me, and that I can\u2019t be loved in the same way that I was loved before.\u201d I think, whether it is a child or a friend, who shares this experience with you, the first thing is to just affirm that you love them. This hasn\u2019t made you love them any less for you to know this about them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is actually a pretty normal experience. I mean, the statistics show that about \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t14 percent of women and 7 percent of men experience some degree of same-sex attraction, though actually, only 1 percent of women and 2 percent of men are exclusively attracted to their same sex. Folks, like me, who are primarily attracted to women, but actually it doesn\u2019t mean I can\u2019t make a marriage to a good man work; it\u2019s actually the largest category of folks, who experience same-sex attraction. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo help them to understand that they are not sort of one strange person amongst this massive crowd of other people, who\u2019ve\/the thought has never crossed their mind. Then give them some good resources; there are some great books that have come out recently on these questions. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Rebecca, thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Thanks for being here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> One of the great resources that Rebecca has in mind on this subject of same-sex attraction is a book written by her friend, Rachel Gilson. Rachel has been a guest on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, wrote a book called <em>Born Again This Way<\/em>. We\u2019ve got her book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. We have links to the podcast episodes with Rachel. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know this is an issue for so many moms and dads today as teenage sons and teenage daughters are wondering: \u201cAm I gay?\u201d and \u201cIf I have same-sex attraction, what do I do with that?\u201d Rachel\u2019s book deals with that specifically; and of course, Rebecca\u2019s book deals with it, in part, along with other questions that teenagers are facing today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re making Rebecca\u2019s book available this week to those of you who can help support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> with a donation of any amount. The book is called \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>10 Questions Every Teen Should Ask<\/em>. These are good, important, healthy questions\u2014not questions we ought to ignore\u2014but questions we ought to deal with, head on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs moms and dads, we need help in knowing how to help navigate our teens through the minefield that is in front of them. Rebecca\u2019s book does just that. Again, we would love to send you a copy if you are able to support the ongoing mission of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Our goal is to effectively develop godly marriages and families. This radio program is a part of how we do that\u2014we have events and resources; we have our website; podcasts that are available\u2014all of this is made possible because listeners, like you, make it possible through your donations. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo again, if you can help with a donation today, be sure to request your copy of Rebecca McLaughlin\u2019s book, <em>10 Questions Every Teen Should Ask<\/em>. You can donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make your donation. The website, again, is FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to donate. Our number is 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, this is a month when traditionally our thoughts turn toward Thanksgiving, not just the holiday, but being thankful. Here, at FamilyLife, we\u2019ve got a lot to be thankful for. David Robbins, who is the president of FamilyLife, is here with me. David, this has been a year where much of our traditional ministry has been challenged because of COVID. Yet, we have seen God continue to work <em>through<\/em> the ministry of FamilyLife in some pretty remarkable ways. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Yes; those of you, who know us, know us likely for our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> getaways or for <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> and other resources we bring; but one of the things we are passionate about that is described in our mission statement of: \u201cEffectively developing godly families who change the world one home at a time,\u201d\u2014we are passionate about helping families disciple families\u2014their own and the families in their community. So we, for a long time, have created resources that allow people to pass on the timeless truth of the Scripture and the gospel to homes around them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis year alone, over 300,000 people have gone through one of our FamilyLife small groups that has been facilitated by someone, who gets a passion to host a group and impact people around them. It\u2019s encouraging to see what happens in the US, and a number like that; but I just got an email this past week of a group of people in the Philippines, trusting God for a movement of godly families in the Philippines. They took one of our latest small group resources, <em>Vertical Marriage<\/em>, and gathered a group of people; and dozens of leaders, all over the country, have been leading <em>Vertical Marriage<\/em> small groups in churches in the Philippines. That\u2019s what our heart is for; that is what our mission is about\u2014is to have families discipling families\u2014living out Jesus\u2019s call to fulfill the Great Commission. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Those of you, who support this ministry financially, you make all of this possible; so thank you for that. Thank you for partnering with us in helping to effectively develop godly marriages and families; and we <em>always<\/em> look forward to hearing from you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can join us, again, tomorrow when our friend, Ray McKelvy, is going to be here, along with Ron Deal. Ray shares his story of growing up, not knowing his biological father, and then having his mom and stepdad divorce when he was a child. There was a lot going on in Ray\u2019s family that affected him and, later, affected his marriage to Robyn. We\u2019ll hear all about that tomorrow. I hope you can join us for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:26:30"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["24.27M"],"filesize_raw":["25444928"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-307292.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-307292.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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today's LGBTQ culture is confusing and sometimes scary to some Christians, but Rebecca McLaughlin highlights the truth of God's perfect love and what that means for our relationships.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-11-10.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I recently talked to a guy\u2014I think it was last week\u2014and I don\u2019t know how we got on this topic. I think he brought it up; but he said he cancelled his <em>Sports Illustrated<\/em> subscription the day they put Kaitlyn Jenner on the cover as the athlete of the year; because Bruce Jenner became a woman, Kaitlyn. They had her on the cover of the <em>Sports Illustrated<\/em>. I said, \u201cWhat do you mean you cancelled it?\u201d He goes, \u201cThis wasn\u2019t an athletic move. I didn\u2019t like what they did, so I cancelled. I mean, I just cancelled my subscription.\u201d I was like, \u201cWhoa!\u201d I thought, \u201cHe\u2019s telling me that; but if he would say that out loud publicly, <em>he<\/em> would get cancelled.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWelcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, it\u2019s one of those things that, if you say something like that in this culture that is not the popular view\u2014and you can pick almost any popular subject\u2014if you are going sort of in a different minority position on it, you sort of get cancelled. We live in a cancel culture: \u201cI\u2019m not going to follow you, listen to you, respect you anymore.\u201d What\u2019s up with that? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, I think our culture is really shifting right now, too; and I think many of us feel like we\u2019re walking on egg shells; we don\u2019t want to offend. It\u2019s not even\u2014it can be offensive\u2014but then the result of what we said can be volatile. If you\u2019ve been on Twitter<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> any amount of time, it is a crazy world right now, where people are being attacked. I think, in some ways, it is good that we are careful with what we\u2019re saying, and we need to be loving in all respects; but you are right. We are living in a culture that is cancelling everything. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I even read\u2014this isn\u2019t just in the Christian world or the religious world\u2014I read this morning that a pretty famous broadcaster in the NBA said: \u201cI\u2019m done. I\u2019m quitting; because all of our conversations are about what I cannot say publicly, because I\u2019ll get attacked.\u201d He goes, \u201cI\u2019m not going to live like this anymore.\u201d I thought, \u201cWow; it\u2019s interesting that he says we are afraid to make any comment publicly, because of being cancelled.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And think about what our kids are dealing with on any sort of social media platform. I think, more than ever, they are really careful. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I think our kids in the church have a lot of questions about some important issues. There is a book that came out, written by the author, who is sitting across the table from us. Rebecca McLaughlin is sitting in here with us. You wrote a book called \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>10 Questions Every Teen Should Ask (and Answer) About Christianity<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean, you\u2019ve got an unbelievable pedigree in terms of PhD in Renaissance Literature and just a background in defending the faith and writing. You wrote a book that was well-received called <em>Confronting Christianity<\/em>. This is sort of the teenage version of that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You\u2019ve been to seminary. You have three kids; you are married. How many years have you been married? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> Thirteen.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And your kids are\u2014the oldest is 11? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Youngest is going to be three soon. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> In the book, you go through ten questions. You didn\u2019t hide from some of the biggies. Several of them are about evidence: \u201cHow do you know the Bible is true?\u201d and \u201cHeaven and Hell; \u201cIs Christianity just for me?\u201d But you have a couple chapters in there about gender, diversity, sexuality. Let\u2019s get into some of those; but why put those in? Do you feel like\u2014obviously, you do\u2014these are important questions for your teenager? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> Yes; yes. As long as I can remember, I\u2019ve been a follower of Jesus. As long as I can remember, I\u2019ve been attracted to women. Because I\u2019ve always been a follower of Jesus, it was not something I chose to pursue as a teenager or as a young adult. I\u2019ve chosen to marry a guy rather than a girl. I think, if I was not a Christian, most likely\u2014I mean, who knows?\u2014but most likely, I\u2019d be married to a woman today instead of to a man. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think for many people, hearing that, they are like, \u201cOh my goodness! What kind of strange creature are you?!\u201d It doesn\u2019t really fit into many of our categories; because we tend to think of the church over here, and then the LGBT community over there. What we tend not to realize is there is actually quite a lot of overlap. It\u2019s like the Venn Diagrams you learn about in middle school. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> You have the circles that have some overlap. The way that we, in churches, have often navigated this is like ignore people, within our communities, who may experience same-sex attraction, or who may really sort of struggle with their sense of themselves as a guy or as a girl. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve sort of silenced folks, or kind of come down really hard and been like, \u201cWell, wait a minute; what\u2019s going on here? Are you <em>really<\/em> a follower of Jesus if this is an area of temptation and struggle for you?\u201d in ways that we probably don\u2019t if it\u2019s somebody, who is struggling with heterosexual desire, for example. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> Then we\u2019ve created this idea that it\u2019s the LGBT folks <em>out there<\/em>. We very much, too often, I think, have stigmatized or had this idea about what gay, or lesbian, or transgender, or bisexual people are like. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, especially for kids growing up today, as they start to meet friends at school\u2014or if they go off to college and have roommates or friends, who do identify as gay, or lesbian, or as transgender\u2014they\u2019ll go through this process of thinking: \u201cWait a minute! I used to think the Bible said it wasn\u2019t okay, for example, to pursue a same-sex sexual relationship; but then I met this really nice guy who is gay. He seems to have a great relationship with his partner, and he seems like he is a really committed sort of person,\u201d\u2014like all of the things they may have been raised to believe about gay people don\u2019t seem to fit with this guy. So then, they say, \u201cWell, now, I don\u2019t really know that I believe what the Bible says is true.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, we have a hard time, sometimes, knowing what to repent of. I think the two things that we need to do, on all sorts of cultural issues right now as Christians\u2014we need to repent and believe\u2014that should be deep in our DNA; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> That\u2019s how we become Christians in the first place. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> We repent, and we believe. I think we need to recognize there are meaningful things that we, as a Christians, need to repent of in the way that we have too often treated\u2014gay and lesbian folk outside the church or people who struggle with same-sex attraction within the church\u2014but we also need to believe what the Bible says. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m going to bring another area in here because they are so interlocked in people\u2019s minds. I think, sadly, they\u2019ve been quite interlocked in sort of the history of Christian sin. It kind of goes back to your original point of like\u2014today, to not affirm somebody\u2019s transgender identity, for example, isn\u2019t just to be like a little bit dated\u2014or \u201cAren\u2019t you sweet, you, Christians? You aren\u2019t really with the times,\u201d\u2014there is a sense of sort of righteous anger that will come at you\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> \u2014if you don\u2019t affirm somebody\u2019s transition, for example, or somebody saying they are trans. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhere does that come from? The more that I\u2019ve sort of studied this, as somebody who has come from the outside from the UK, and trying to get my bearings in the US in the last decade or so\u2014the more it\u2019s become clear that actually the argument goes like this: \u201cJust as the white \u201860s segregationist used their Bibles to go against interracial marriage, and the desegregation of schools\u2014and all the things that, sadly, many white Christians did\u2014so you, Christians, today are using your Bibles to reject and oppress LGBT folk.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tUntil we fully recognize that part A of that statement is true, and until we are ready to reckon with that, we\u2019re not really going to be able to speak with clarity, and authenticity, and love into our issues today; because for many of our peers today\u2014and especially for our kids\u2019 peers\u2014the transgender rights movement today <em>is<\/em> the new civil rights movement. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe people like us, who aren\u2019t going to affirm gay marriage or aren\u2019t going to affirm transgender identities\u2014this is like the new civil rights movement\u2014it\u2019s not just kind of an agree to disagree situation; it\u2019s a question of deep justice\u2014again, I think we need to sort of take that moment to repent at the same time as we believe what the Scriptures say when it comes to sexuality. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs I\u2019ve mentioned earlier, I\u2019ve always been someone, who is sort of primarily attracted to women. If I had come to the Scripture\u2014like I looked quite carefully in the Scriptures; and if I had found that they said, \u201cYes; no, sure, it\u2019s fine; gay marriage is certainly something that is compatible with being a follower of Jesus,\u201d\u2014I would have probably been quite pleased to find that. That\u2019s not what I found; but instead, I found something more profound, and more beautiful, and more surprising, which is the very reason that God made male and female; the very reason He made sex and sexuality in marriage was to tell us the story of His love for us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s not, when we see the Bible talking about Jesus as like a husband and the church is His wife\u2014that\u2019s not just looking around, like, \u201cOh, human marriage\u2014that looks nice\u2014I\u2019m going to compare Jesus and the church to that,\u201d\u2014no; the actual reason God even made us as sexual beings, and that He even created this kind of relationship, was to give us the tiniest glimpse of Jesus\u2019 passionate love for us. I think understanding <em>that<\/em>, then, puts everything else into perspective\u2014whether it\u2019s your struggle with pornography, or whether it\u2019s your struggle with heterosexual lust, or whether it\u2019s your struggle with same-sex desire\u2014like, for all of us, recognizing that our ultimate lover is Jesus, completely changes the way that we think. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So when you say repent\u2014because there is a belief also that: \u201cOkay, we use the Bible in justice, in civil rights, in slavery,\u201d\u2014you name it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> The problem with the \u201860s segregationists was not that they were too Christian. It was that they weren\u2019t half Christian enough. It wasn\u2019t that they would cling to their Bibles too hard; it was that they were actually completely failing to read their Bibles\u2014or reading it in such an extraordinarily selective\u2014I mean, the kind of interpretive gymnastics that you have to do to justify segregation from the Scriptures is actually about as drastic as the kind you have to do to affirm gay marriage from a Christian perspective. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf we read the Bible, we find that it pulls us in one direction when it comes to racial equality and justice and in a completely different direction when it comes to same-sex sexual relationships. I think, in both cases, we need to come back to the Bible. When I say, \u201crepent and believe,\u201d I mean: \u201cLook at what the Scriptures say. See where our lives, or attitudes, or our treatment of others, doesn\u2019t align with what the Bible says. Then believe what the Bible says is true.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>What\u2019s really fascinating is that even\u2014and this is a point made by a non-Christian historian called Tom Holland in the UK\u2014even the very basis on which folks, who were gay rights advocates, for example, or transgender activists\u2014the basis of their arguments is to say: \u201cLook, all human beings are equal. Those who have been historically oppressed and marginalized shouldn\u2019t be trampled on, but they should be protected. There is sort of this individual uniqueness to everyone and this equality that is regardless of who you are, or where you are, or where you come from, or what you\u2019re doing.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhere do we get those ideas? They are actually straight out of the Bible. They are <em>not<\/em> just self-evident truths that all human beings are created equal; that\u2019s a specifically Christian claim. So folks on both sides, in our current conversations about gender and sexuality\u2014whether or not you realize it\u2014are sort of standing on Christian ground. We just haven\u2019t looked down to see the sort of moral soil beneath our feet, which is only there because of Christianity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Let\u2019s talk about this practically. When your kids come home from school\u2014and they say: \u201cOh, my friend has two moms,\u201d or \u201cMy friend just said she came out; she said she\u2019s gay today,\u201d\u2014talk about how you dialogue with your kids about those conversations or how our listeners could have that dialogue, in a very loving way, but a really honest and biblical way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> Yes; yes. One of the super helpful things for me\u2014because my kids absolutely come home\u2014they have a non-binary friend, who has two moms, for example. One of the things I am able to do is to talk them through the stories of several of our Christian friends. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tI talk them through my friend Rachel\u2019s story, who is on staff with Cru<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, who came to Christ out of a lesbian atheist background when she was an undergrad at Yale. \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tI tell them my friend Lou\u2019s story, who grew up in the church, who has always been attracted to men and really not to women at all, and is living as a single man, serving the Lord with all his heart in our community at church. \n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><ul><li>\n\t\t\t\t\tI\u2019d share a bit of my story which is less exciting in some ways than Rachel\u2019s. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t<\/ul><p>\n\t\t\t\tI want them to know that Christians aren\u2019t different because we necessarily have different patterns of attraction, or different struggles, or different whatever. We are different because Jesus has called us, and that within Jesus\u2019s family, we are going to believe different things and do different things than folks outside. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m going to encourage <em>them<\/em> to love their friends\u2014regardless of who they say they are, or whether they have two mums, or two dads, or one mum and no dad\u2014that actually our disposition <em>always<\/em> needs to be to love. The part of loving someone\/the important part of loving someone is pointing them to Jesus and telling them about His exclusive claims on them. If and when one day they put their trust in Jesus, a whole lot of things will need to change in their lives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, when you say\u2014we\u2019ve talked about repent, and I think we\u2019ve talked about believe\u2014I want to make sure I understand the believe part: \u201cBelieve <em>what<\/em>?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> Believe that sex only belongs in male\/female marriage for Christians; and that actually, same-sex sexual relationships, consistently through the Scriptures, are seen as <em>not<\/em> being appropriate for God\u2019s people. But here is the thing\u2014I like to say this, sometimes, a little bit provocatively\u2014because folks will sometimes say, \u201cThe Bible condemns same-sex relationships.\u201d I say, \u201cNo, it doesn\u2019t. The Bible actually commands same-sex relationships at a level of intimacy that we Christians hardly ever reach.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you think about it, Paul talks about us being one body together. He calls his friend, Onesimus, his very heart. Imagine how awkward that would be if you were to say that to like a male friend\/that \u201cYou\u2019re my very heart.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> He talks about: \u201cus being comrades in arms\u201d \u201cas being knit together in love,\u201d\u2014the language of intimacy\u2014sure, opposite sex as well\u2014but I think particularly same-sex closeness that we see in the New Testament, where Jesus is saying, \u201cGreater love has no one than this that he lay down his life for his friends.\u201d It\u2019s not that we don\u2019t believe in love between people of the same sex; we actually believe in a <em>better<\/em> love between people of the same sex than anything this world has to offer us. And we believe in that because we believe in Jesus. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe know that that is a really close and important relationship; but it\u2019s not a sexual relationship. It\u2019s a different kind of relationship, and likewise we see friendship. I think we need to recognize that sex and marriage are actually beautiful and important gifts from God; but they have a very specific design and purpose, and that it is a <em>different<\/em> design and purpose than other kinds of relationships that also give us different glimpses of Jesus\u2019s love. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, obviously, you mentioned your journey; but I\u2019d love to know: \u201cWhat was that journey like\u2014as you realized: \u2018I\u2019m same-sex attracted; I\u2019m a follower of Christ,\u2019 from a young age\u2014how did that go?\u201d Walk us through that a little bit. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> Oh, I didn\u2019t tell anyone\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, you kept it quiet. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> \u2014which I think is true of a <em>lot<\/em> of Christians. I get emails every week, or more than once a week from people\u2014whether they are 15 or 45\u2014who have <em>never<\/em> talked about their same-sex attraction with their Christian friends or family and are really struggling. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think one of the things we can all be a part of is actually making it something that we can talk about; because Satan\u2019s\u2014one of his <em>greatest<\/em> weapons\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> \u2014against us is making each of us feel like: \u201cWell, <em>your<\/em> struggle is the thing you can\u2019t talk about; you can\u2019t get help with this,\u201d \u201cYour pornography addiction is far too disgusting to talk about to your friend,\u201d or \u201cYour experience of same-sex attraction\u2014nobody is going to understand\u2014they are just going to reject you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think for me, personally, I only started talking to Christian friends in my early 30s; and the reason was I was terrified, if I opened up about this, then all of my female friends would take just half a step away from me\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> \u2014not that they would run, screaming; I knew they weren\u2019t like that\u2014but that they would just take a little half step back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Is that what happened? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> No; what I realized was actually <em>I<\/em> had taken a half step back from them, because they were sharing the real struggles in their life and I <em>wasn\u2019t<\/em>; and I never had. So actually, I hadn\u2019t given them the opportunity to step in alongside me, and to be friends who knew me and loved me, and who will speak truth to me when I need to hear truth, and will speak encouragement and love to me when I need that. I think that is true for all of us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> Whatever our patterns of attraction or whatever our struggles with sin, I think we all need friends in the Lord; and we all need to be people, who others are going to be comfortable opening up with. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Have you talked with your kids about\u2014let\u2019s just say this\u2014your kids would come and talk to you about that. Is that what you would hope is that they would open up? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> I really hope they would; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Some listeners are thinking, \u201cI don\u2019t know if I want my kids to open up about that, because I don\u2019t know how I would respond.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> She knows me; I\u2019m the withdrawer guy. I\u2019m like, \u201cYes, I\u2019d rather not know\u201d; right? [Laughter] You would be like\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I <em>would<\/em> want to know. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And of course, I want to know; but there is a part of the uncomfortable, like, \u201cOh my goodness! What am I going to do with <em>that<\/em>?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cor say?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I\u2019m guessing that you would <em>hope<\/em> your kids would tell you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> Whatever they are struggling with\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> \u2014I hope that they would tell me. I hope they would have other people, as well, around them; because I think we have a profoundly important responsibility, as parents, to disciple our children; but I think, also, God puts all of us in a family that\u2019s broader than even the nuclear family. I would want them to be able to talk with my friend Rachel, or my friend Lou, or others who can give their own angle on the same truth but who can actually walk with them\/alongside them in ways that complement how I do that as their mother as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And talk about your response, if one of your kids came and talked to you about that, or if you had talked to your mum about that, what would you hope the response would be? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rebecca:<\/strong> I think the terrifying thing, in particular about this struggle I think\u2014I\u2019m sure it\u2019s, to some extent, true of any struggle you might be bringing to your parents\u2014but I think that worry that: \u201cI\u2019m suddenly going to be seen as like completely other,\u201d or \u201cThere is something really wrong with me, and that I can\u2019t be loved in the same way that I was loved before.\u201d I think, whether it is a child or a friend, who shares this experience with you, the first thing is to just affirm that you love them. This hasn\u2019t made you love them any less for you to know this about them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is actually a pretty normal experience. I mean, the statistics show that about \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t14 percent of women and 7 percent of men experience some degree of same-sex attraction, though actually, only 1 percent of women and 2 percent of men are exclusively attracted to their same sex. Folks, like me, who are primarily attracted to women, but actually it doesn\u2019t mean I can\u2019t make a marriage to a good man work; it\u2019s actually the largest category of folks, who experience same-sex attraction. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo help them to understand that they are not sort of one strange person amongst this massive crowd of other people, who\u2019ve\/the thought has never crossed their mind. Then give them some good resources; there are some great books that have come out recently on these questions. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Rebecca, thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Thanks for being here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> One of the great resources that Rebecca has in mind on this subject of same-sex attraction is a book written by her friend, Rachel Gilson. Rachel has been a guest on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, wrote a book called <em>Born Again This Way<\/em>. We\u2019ve got her book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. We have links to the podcast episodes with Rachel. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know this is an issue for so many moms and dads today as teenage sons and teenage daughters are wondering: \u201cAm I gay?\u201d and \u201cIf I have same-sex attraction, what do I do with that?\u201d Rachel\u2019s book deals with that specifically; and of course, Rebecca\u2019s book deals with it, in part, along with other questions that teenagers are facing today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re making Rebecca\u2019s book available this week to those of you who can help support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> with a donation of any amount. The book is called \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>10 Questions Every Teen Should Ask<\/em>. These are good, important, healthy questions\u2014not questions we ought to ignore\u2014but questions we ought to deal with, head on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs moms and dads, we need help in knowing how to help navigate our teens through the minefield that is in front of them. Rebecca\u2019s book does just that. Again, we would love to send you a copy if you are able to support the ongoing mission of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Our goal is to effectively develop godly marriages and families. This radio program is a part of how we do that\u2014we have events and resources; we have our website; podcasts that are available\u2014all of this is made possible because listeners, like you, make it possible through your donations. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo again, if you can help with a donation today, be sure to request your copy of Rebecca McLaughlin\u2019s book, <em>10 Questions Every Teen Should Ask<\/em>. You can donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make your donation. The website, again, is FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to donate. Our number is 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, this is a month when traditionally our thoughts turn toward Thanksgiving, not just the holiday, but being thankful. Here, at FamilyLife, we\u2019ve got a lot to be thankful for. David Robbins, who is the president of FamilyLife, is here with me. David, this has been a year where much of our traditional ministry has been challenged because of COVID. Yet, we have seen God continue to work <em>through<\/em> the ministry of FamilyLife in some pretty remarkable ways. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Yes; those of you, who know us, know us likely for our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> getaways or for <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> and other resources we bring; but one of the things we are passionate about that is described in our mission statement of: \u201cEffectively developing godly families who change the world one home at a time,\u201d\u2014we are passionate about helping families disciple families\u2014their own and the families in their community. So we, for a long time, have created resources that allow people to pass on the timeless truth of the Scripture and the gospel to homes around them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis year alone, over 300,000 people have gone through one of our FamilyLife small groups that has been facilitated by someone, who gets a passion to host a group and impact people around them. It\u2019s encouraging to see what happens in the US, and a number like that; but I just got an email this past week of a group of people in the Philippines, trusting God for a movement of godly families in the Philippines. They took one of our latest small group resources, <em>Vertical Marriage<\/em>, and gathered a group of people; and dozens of leaders, all over the country, have been leading <em>Vertical Marriage<\/em> small groups in churches in the Philippines. That\u2019s what our heart is for; that is what our mission is about\u2014is to have families discipling families\u2014living out Jesus\u2019s call to fulfill the Great Commission. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Those of you, who support this ministry financially, you make all of this possible; so thank you for that. Thank you for partnering with us in helping to effectively develop godly marriages and families; and we <em>always<\/em> look forward to hearing from you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can join us, again, tomorrow when our friend, Ray McKelvy, is going to be here, along with Ron Deal. Ray shares his story of growing up, not knowing his biological father, and then having his mom and stepdad divorce when he was a child. There was a lot going on in Ray\u2019s family that affected him and, later, affected his marriage to Robyn. We\u2019ll hear all about that tomorrow. I hope you can join us for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/307292","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=307292"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=307292"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=307292"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=307292"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=307292"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=307292"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=307292"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}