{"id":307282,"date":"2021-11-02T10:02:31","date_gmt":"2021-11-02T14:02:31","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/the-real-world-vs-the-digital-world\/"},"modified":"2021-11-02T10:02:31","modified_gmt":"2021-11-02T14:02:31","slug":"the-real-world-vs-the-digital-world","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-real-world-vs-the-digital-world\/","title":{"rendered":"The Real World vs. The Digital World"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Screens can give us the false impression that we rule our digital kingdom with the touch of a button. David Murrow warns us that having the tools is not the problem, but drowning in them is.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-11-02.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:24:51","filesize":"22.75M","filesize_raw":"23850880","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[10350,2089],"tags":[4294,4237],"podcast_series":[8485],"cwp_profile":[8994],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307282","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-digital-and-media-choices","category-media-and-entertainment","tag-family","tag-technology","podcast_series-drowning-in-screen-time","cwp_profile-david-murrow","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307282\/the-real-world-vs-the-digital-world","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307282\/the-real-world-vs-the-digital-world","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"gl2AFtChk6\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-real-world-vs-the-digital-world\/\">The Real World vs. The Digital World<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-real-world-vs-the-digital-world\/embed\/#?secret=gl2AFtChk6\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;The Real World vs. The Digital World&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"gl2AFtChk6\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-11-02.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-11-02.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So I\u2019m going to make us do something right now. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I want to do the screen time check on your phone. I just want to know what your number is compared to my number. Daily average: \u201cWhat is your daily average?\u201d\u2014just say it! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m so embarrassed! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWelcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So we\u2019re talking about screen time today. I just want to know what your number is compared to my number. I\u2019m competitive, so I\u2019m just hoping it\u2019s higher than six hours. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, we\u2019ve been doing radio all week;\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Okay; sounds like an excuse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014so I\u2019ve been on it, because this is where we study on our phone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It sounds like you\u2019re making an excuse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Four hours. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, mine\u2019s higher! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, it\u2019s 57 minutes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m 5 hours and 14 minutes, but I\u2019m <em>down<\/em> 31 percent from last week. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOkay; so we\u2019re talking about screen time today, because this little device in our hands\u2014whether it is a phone, or an iPad<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, or a computer screen\u2014it can dominate our lives. Look at you; you can\u2019t even\/can\u2019t even get your eyes off of it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m on my phone four hours a day?! What am I <em>doing<\/em> with my life?! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, we\u2019re going to find out; because we\u2019re going to get some help today from David Murrow. He wrote a book about this. He\u2019s\/he can help us; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid, welcome back to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Good to be with you again. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, we\u2019re glad to have you here. You wrote a book called <em>Drowning in Screen Time<\/em>\u2014which I was going to say, \u201cMy wife is drowning,\u201d\u2014but if I\u2019m an hour more a <em>day<\/em>\u2014was that a <em>day<\/em>?\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u20145 hours, 14 minutes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I am <em>very<\/em> discouraged. I hope I can get my mind back on what we are doing here because that\u2019s\u2014David, pull yours up; let\u2019s see. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> I shut mine off before the broadcast. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Look at that; of course, he did\u2014he wrote a book about this\u2014he knows how <em>bad<\/em> this is. Hey, by the way, I just noticed my number-one app that I spent the most hours on is my camera. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Well, you know, sometimes\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, you\u2019re going to tell me that\u2019s not true. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> I\u2019m going to let you off the hook a little bit. Sometimes, people use their alarm clocks\/their phone as an alarm clock. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; I do that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> I\u2019ll do that. My thing is: \u201cYou were on 11 hours a day.\u201d I\u2019ll go, \u201cWhat?\u201d Well, eight hours a day of that was my clock. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That is what mine is; there you go. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Recently, you\u2019ve written more about this screen time thing. In fact, the subtitle\u2014which is really interesting is\u2014<em>A Lifeline for Adults, Parents, Teachers, and Ministers Who Want to Reclaim Their Real Lives<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve already talked this week about sort of the epidemic of screens in our lives and how they can really be detrimental; but how do they keep us away from your title there, real lives? Do they really keep us away from real life? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Oh, they absolutely do. One of the parables that I use at the beginning of the book\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, you have five parables. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u2014it\u2019s based on five parables. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, I like those. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> One of the parables is\/I call it the parable of the kingdom. David was elevated to the role of king. When he became king, he was\/he encountered lots of pressures that he had never known as a shepherd boy; for example, presiding over a kingdom; he could suddenly summon any food that he wanted\u2014well, we can do that with our phones now\u2014[Laughter]\u2014he could banish heretics and turncoats and put rivals to the sword\u2014we can do that on Twitter<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe whole thing adds up to: you create this digital kingdom over which you reign as lord and master. You decide what ideas will be tolerated, what ideas will be cancelled, who can come in, and who can come out of your royal presence. There are algorithms that function like digital yes-men. They look over your shoulder while you surf the web; and then they provide you with more content that tells you, \u201cOh, you\u2019re right!\u201d They back up the things that you already believe; or if you are the type who likes to fight online, your social media feed is going to fill up with ideas that you <em>hate<\/em> so that you can fight with those people.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAll of it adds up to this digital kingdom over which we reign as lord and master. I think that is very unhealthy. Then you go into the real world, where nothing\/you don\u2019t reign over anything. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You have control over <em>nothing<\/em>. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Yes, in the digital world, you have complete control over what happens. In the real world, you control almost nothing: there is no on\/off button if your car breaks down; there is no way to unfriend toxic coworkers. What it is doing is we are having this generation of young people, who are growing up digital\u2014they are accustomed to having this high level of control in their lives in their digital lives\u2014and they are not adapting well to real life, because it doesn\u2019t yield to their preferences. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wow! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> That\u2019s just the natural result of kids, who have grown up on social media\u2014and have unfriended, unclicked, cancelled things\u2014that\u2019s just been their thing; they are trying to bring that ethos into the real world:\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u201cIdeas that I don\u2019t like should not be there.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It is a fantasy world. The fantasy world is much easier\/ simpler than the real world, because the <em>real<\/em> world is difficult. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> The real world is <em>very<\/em> difficult, and it always has been; but we\u2019ve never had this sanctuary that we have today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> It\u2019s so easy to retreat into video games\u2014nobody really dies\u2014but you get to be this heroic guy. It <em>is<\/em> a fantasy world, and it accommodates our needs; it slowly molds to our preferences. It really doesn\u2019t let any other content or ideas in. It really becomes castle walls around our minds. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> There are <em>good<\/em> things. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Let\u2019s talk about that for just a second; because we don\u2019t want to say [scolding voice], \u201cThis is awful; there is nothing good.\u201d What are the good things? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Well, just for\u2014I\u2019ll give you an example from my book\u2014I was walking down the street the other day with my wife in Alaska. We walked past this patch of daisies that my daughter had always loved picking as a child. We tapped on our phones, and we could see that she was at the store far away. We got on Face Time<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, and we showed her the daisies. We saw her and our grandson; she lives in <em>Australia<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, goodness! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Really? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> We\u2019re in Alaska; she\u2019s in Australia. Yet, I knew where she was; and I was able to talk to her in real time. You couldn\u2019t even do that until 2011, so it\u2019s really done a good job of allowing us to keep in touch with our far-flung loved ones. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>David:<\/strong> And really, during the pandemic, it has been a lifeline. I couldn\u2019t even imagine going through these shutdowns that we did\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u2014without these wonderful tools. The problem isn\u2019t that we have the tools. The problem is when we drown in the tools\/when they become our reality. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; it\u2019s interesting, you say in the book\u2014and you\u2019ve already talked about, David; but you use these three terms of attributes that are god-like or attributes that are divine\u2014and you say digital\/the screen sort of gives us\/can you talk about those? Those are very interesting to think: \u201cThese are only what God can do; and yet, we have some similar powers.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> We can be omniscient; we can <em>know<\/em> anything right now. If you want to know any fact, you can just go to your pocket and find it in about 15 seconds. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe can be omnipresent, which is really good when you work from Alaska. I can beam into a Zoom meeting in South Africa if that\u2019s necessary. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOmniscient, omnipresent\u2014and omnipotent would be the other one\u2014although we haven\u2019t quite reached omnipotence, we certainly have powers; for example, if my daughter in Australia needs money,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u2014I can just click a couple of buttons. I don\u2019t have to send a ship full of jewels and gold down there. [Laughter] I can just click a couple of buttons on my computer; and within hours, she has the money. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have these powers and presence that we\u2019ve <em>never<\/em> had before, and these are <em>wonderful<\/em> things as long as they don\u2019t <em>displace<\/em> real life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So if I am a guy, who is listening to this\u2014and we talked about it earlier\u2014maybe, I have a problem; and I\u2019m guessing I\u2019m among millions of people who have a problem. What are some steps? I\u2019ve got to get a grip on this. You have written a book to help me. I\u2019m drowning. I didn\u2019t think I was drowning, but I\u2019m drowning in screen time. I make a decision: \u201cYou know what? This is something I don\u2019t want to do,\u201d\u2014where do I start? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Well, step number one is always confession; the first step in repentance is confession. Go to a trusted confidant. If you are married, go to your wife\u2014certainly, that would be the first one\u2014and ask the question that you mentioned in the previous episode: \u201cIs this a problem for me?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Just be honest and don\u2019t explode when you hear the answer; it\u2019s probably going to be \u201cYes.\u201d Just confess to someone, and then find the help you need. The same technologies that addict us can also liberate us, especially if you have an addiction to pornography, for example. There are some wonderful tools out there, like Covenant Eyes, that provide mutual accountability. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, the early philosophy was filters: \u201cLet\u2019s stop it before it gets to your phone.\u201d Filters don\u2019t work; you can get around them. Covenant Eyes has switched to a new philosophy, which is mutual accountability. My accountability partner gets screen shots\/random screen shots of my phone; he sees what I\u2019m seeing. Once you have that accountability relationship in place, your buddy can help you back off from unhealthy screen content. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs far as the number of hours of screen content, you definitely want to be checking your weekly screen time report. There are wonderful tools. There is one called Forest, which I just love. You put it on your phone; and you say, \u201cI don\u2019t want to get on my phone for two hours.\u201d During two hours, trees grow on your phone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Really?! I\u2019ve never heard of this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> And if you do anything with your phone in the next two hours, the trees\u2014[wilting sound]\u2014they die! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So you want to keep them growing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So it\u2019s an app? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> It\u2019s an app; yes. One of the nice things, too, is they take some of the money and use it for forestation projects in poor countries;\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s cool. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u2014they actually plant real trees. I love the idea. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are lots and lots of tools out there that are willing to help you if you have a mild screen addiction. Now, if it is <em>severe<\/em>, you may need something: in-patient treatment; you may need to go to a tech-free retreat; you may need to do a detox weekend. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, it\u2019s interesting that we haven\u2019t said a whole lot about the dark side. You mentioned pornography\u2014there are obviously websites and places you can go\u2014and there are tools like Covenant Eyes. I know, years ago, when my boys were in high school, I had Covenant Eyes with them to me. Again, if they went somewhere on their phone, I would get an email. I had it with some guys that held me accountable. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Good; good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019ll never forget. One day, one of my sons\u2014I get an email that says he looked at nude photos of some celebrity; right?\u2014I see that, so I call him up\u2014I\u2019m like, \u201cDude, what is going on?\u201d He had\/I don\u2019t think he was lying; he was like, \u201cDad, that isn\u2019t what happened! I did this thing that wasn\u2019t this, but it\u2019s going to show up like that.\u201d I clicked on what it said he went to. As soon as I did that, I\u2019m like, \u201cUh-oh; now, <em>mine<\/em> is going to go to my guy; right?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Sure enough! Jon Kitna was my guy; he was the quarterback for the Lions back in the day\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Oh, yes; I\u2019ve seen him play. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014<em>great<\/em> guy\u2014and we were <em>great<\/em> friends. He was one of my accountability guys. Sure enough, I got the call from Jon. You can imagine what he thought, \u201cJon, that wasn\u2019t me; that was my son. He actually didn\u2019t do it.\u201d He goes, \u201cNow, you\u2019re <em>lying<\/em>?! You\u2019re throwing your son under the bus, because you had a\u2026\u201d It was all totally innocent; it really was\u2014I\u2019m not saying I\u2019ve always been perfect or anybody has\u2014but that accountability software was a lifesaver. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, it is something that, if you are struggling, you <em>have<\/em> to get that on there. Do you think it really does work? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> You know it does. The pornographers are very smart. They use a man\u2019s natural desire to seek out companionship against them; they are using our brains against us. It\u2019s definitely a growing problem. I think accountability is probably the best way to deal with it if you\/especially to nip it in the bud with young men. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think the thing that\u2019s discouraging as parents is, if you have teenagers, and you feel overwhelmed\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> They may not even be teenagers. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; but there is this feeling: \u201cMy house is out of control; and when I\u2019m talking to my kids about it, they are angry,\u201d especially when [they] are going into video games, even. It\u2019s just really hard to get your kids back. I\u2019ve talked to so many moms, who feel helpless, like: \u201cI don\u2019t know what to do,\u201d and \u201cI don\u2019t know how to get my family back.\u201d How would you encourage <em>them<\/em>? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Well, all the screen time has displaced real life. The best thing to do\u2014well, if they are not willing to talk about it, and they are not willing to see the error of their ways\u2014then you have to displace screen life with real life\/real life activities. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is one of the things Andy Crouch talks about in his book and some of the other things. If they are on the screens all the time, then get them out into soccer, or throw them out of the house\u2014or one of the best things I say is\u2014implement this early if you can: screen-free after dinner. When you come to the table, then you surrender your devices; everything turns off. Everything turns completely off\u2014no TV noise\u2014even mute. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014so <em>nothing<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> So there is no screen activity in the house; have those family conversations around the dinner table, as awkward as they may be; but get back into that. Then after dinner, it\u2019s screen free. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNo screens in the bedroom is the other thing. Once you let a kid take a screen in the bedroom, you\u2019ve lost a lot of territory\u2014you\u2019re back on your own ten-yard line\u2014to use a football metaphor. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> You definitely want to get it early and set these boundaries\/set these expectations as soon as you can. One of the most difficult situations is where you have a joint custody situation, where one parent is very lenient about screens, and the other is very tough. Boy, that is a really, really difficult one. You\u2019ve got to try to get on the same page as your ex-. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Then with little kids, I just read a study that said, \u201cOur kids should not have any screen time before the age of two.\u201d It\u2019s just an easy babysitter, you know, with infants, especially if you are on the plane. What do you encourage with that? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Yes, the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends no screen time before 18 months; and then at that point, you could give them a little bit of screen time as long as you are <em>with<\/em> them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> You don\u2019t really want to park them in front of the screens if you can avoid it until about age three. Then, of course, it should be age-appropriate content. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are two kinds of screen time: there is interactive screen time, and there is passive screen time. One riles the brain up more than the other\u2014that\u2019s the interactive\u2014the passive screen time is just where you are sitting there, watching TV or you are video chatting. You\u2019re not really changing what is on the screen; it does less to stimulate the brain. That\u2019s healthier for kids than interactive screen time, which is handing them a tablet or something like that; because they are changing and manipulating what is going on the screen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014even if it is educational? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u2014even if it is educational. Their brain is still operating at a higher level. It\u2019s like the difference between going to an art gallery and making a painting. Passive screen time is like going to an art gallery; you are just simply looking at the lovely paintings. If you are making a painting, your brain works a lot harder. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So especially before bed, it would probably be hard to wind down. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u2014after interacting\u2014yes, very, very difficult with interactive screen time. The danger there is, if you are handing your kid a tablet to pacify them,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u2014you are teaching them to go to a screen when their emotions are high; soothe themselves with screens. That is like the exact <em>opposite<\/em> of what you want to do. When I see kids in the mall\u2014with their parents\u2019 phones, or a tablet or something\u2014it just\/it <em>frightens<\/em> me; because they are teaching them to go to screens instead of regulating the emotions themselves. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, think about, if you are a withdrawer in a relationship, and conflict arises\u2014and you\u2019ve been trained, as a child, to pacify your emotions by your screen\u2014so then, as an adult, if you are in a difficult conversation\/in a fight, you\u2019re automatically going to want to go to your screen to pacify these emotions. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Right; you\u2019ll never deal with the underlying issue. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Yes. I have heard parents say, \u201cMy kids, with the screens, they are like Gollum: \u2018My <em>precious<\/em>.\u2019\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> I expanded on that analogy in the book. Your screens are like your golden ring of power. If you have a kid, who is crying or whatever, you can give them this ring; and you can make them invisible\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, goodness! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u2014they disappear, just like <em>Lord of the Rings<\/em>\u2014but they become visible to advertisers, who want their money; extremists, who want their mind; and predators, who want their body. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> I think the analogy\u2014it\u2019s a chilling one\u2014so you definitely don\u2019t want to turn your kids into Gollums. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yet\u2014you hear that\u2014yet, as a parent with young kids; I <em>know<\/em>, because we\u2019ve been there\u2014you\u2019re just <em>exhausted<\/em>. [Laughter] You\u2019re like, \u201cThis is so much easier. For the next 30 minutes or an hour, I\u2019m going to hand them a cartoon they can watch.\u201d Yet, it\u2019s <em>not<\/em> the right call; is it? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> It can be in limited amounts; it all depends on whether this is your go-to. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Of course, there are going to be times\u2014and the nice thing that has come along in our day is streaming media\u2014so the advertisers are cut out of the equation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> There is good, quality content for young kids on both secular and Christian channels, if you\u2019re careful. Most of the Christian stuff is <em>great<\/em>. Even on Netflix<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, you can even be very selective about what you show your kids. There are some good\u2014that teach good, wholesome morals and stuff like that\u2014it\u2019s not all a cesspool. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYes, if you are very careful and discerning about what you show, you can park them on occasion\u2014as long as it\u2019s not your go-to\u2014and give them plenty of other analog toys to play with; throw them out in the yard, and let them play and be kids. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; I know\/I\u2019m thinking of: \u201cWhat are healthy alternatives?\u201d because our kids are going to kick and scream and be mad if we kind of lay down the law of: \u201cOkay, after dinner, we are <em>done<\/em> with screens.\u201d That will probably be hard for a little bit, but then they get into a habit. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think it makes us, as parents, have to really be <em>involved<\/em>. I\u2019m thinking about\/I think, after dinner when our kids were little, was some of our favorite times; especially in the summer, because we would be outside. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We would be playing, and we would be there too. I\u2019m just thinking of all the Slip \u2018N Slides and the hockey games, and we were putting tents up and forts up in the woods. That is good for our brains, for our bodies, for our relationships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> What about family reading? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> I mean, reading together as a family. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Those were some of my <em>favorite<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> My kids <em>still<\/em> talk about that; that was their favorite time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Us too! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> They were still squirrelly; and they squirmed; and they lay backward on the couch, but they were listening. They were absorbing the values we taught them\/good values in the books that we read them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, what age would you advise giving a son or a daughter a phone or a tablet? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> That\u2019s a hard one; it depends on the individual. I\u2019ve heard none before 13 or 14. There are products\u2014I\u2019m not shilling for anybody\u2014but I know there is a company out there called Gab Wireless that will do a lockdown smartphone\u2014it only texts to the parents\u2014it\u2019s a phone. All the things, where kids can get in trouble, are off the phone. But it looks like an iPhone<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>; the kids still have the social capital, but they don\u2019t have the possibility of being contacted by a predator. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good alternative. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good call. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> There are products out there like that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> All I know is, as we\u2019ve talked about today, there is good\/and there is a <em>lot<\/em> of really good that comes from screens. It\u2019s <em>amazing<\/em> technology in our world. Yet, just like anything else, there is the dark side\u2014it isn\u2019t just the porn or the predators\u2014it\u2019s the dark side of <em>pulling<\/em> families apart. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> The number of hours, yes; we displace those moments, that are so precious that we can\u2019t get back. It\u2019s easier to look at a phone than it is to put up a tent in the yard, like you were saying; but boy, what are you going to remember?\u2014what are the kids going to remember? They are going to remember that tent, falling down on their heads, and laughing. Those moments are irreplaceable. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs followers of Jesus, we need to focus on those things that are important, and are of eternal value, and not the things that are fleeting and interesting in the moment. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m recalling all the nights that we spent, before our kids went to bed, just lying in their room, reading the Bible, reading books like novels that were <em>so good<\/em>. They do remember those times of reading and even asking them questions at night before they went to bed. Those days are irreplaceable. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was thinking, \u201cMan, wouldn\u2019t that be good just to implement that rule of: \u2018Hey, at dinnertime and beyond, there is no screen time\u2019?\u201d It really could change our families. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> I think it gets you to the 50-yard line, really, to continue our football analogy here. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You keep wanting to go into football. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> No, it\u2019s really\u2014people say, \u201cWhat\u2019s one thing I can do?\u201d\u2014I\u2019d say the number-one thing you can do is you collect the screens at dinnertime; no screens in the bedroom, and every screen is shut off. The one exception would be if you wanted to have a family movie night. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>David:<\/strong> But then you are doing everything together\u2014you\u2019re make popcorn; you\u2019re watching a fun movie\u2014that\u2019s <em>great<\/em>; that\u2019s a good use of screen time. But other than that, you really want to avoid that being alone together problem, where everyone is on their individual screen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m telling you\u2014you are going to build more resilient kids the more you put them into the real world\u2014the more they suffer the disappointment of losing their soccer match, or the tent that falls down, or the bee sting they get. I mean, they are perfectly physical safe in the house; but the young people today are so non-resilient, because they have been protected so much inside of our homes by a screen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; if you put the screen down, you\u2019re going to create a memory. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I\u2019m thinking, Dave. I\u2019m recalling all of our kids said\u2014we\u2019ve asked them, now that they are adults\u2014\u201cWhat are the <em>best<\/em> memories that you have growing up?\u201d One of them said\u2014and I\u2019ve shared this before\u2014but he said, \u201cWhen you guys pray for us every night before we go to bed altogether in the same room, that has stuck with me.\u201d None of them has said, \u201c\u2026the times that we were on our screens together\u201d; no one has said that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u201cThat high score in my video game; that was my best!\u201d\u2014no. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> No, that\u2019s not it; because God made us for relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I think all of us know that there is a difference between digital life and real life. There is a difference between a digital relationship and a real relationship. There is a difference between a Facebook<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> friend and a real friend. We want to be in pursuit of what is <em>real<\/em>. That\u2019s at the heart of what Dave and Ann Wilson have been talking with David Murrow about. David has written a book called <em>Drowning in Screen Time<\/em> that helps all of us understand how we are being impacted\u2014as parents, as teenagers, singles\u2014all of us are being affected by the omnipresence of a screen in our life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are making David\u2019s book available this week to any <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listener who can help advance the ministry of FamilyLife through a donation. When you support this ministry\u2014help us expand the reach of FamilyLife so that more people are being impacted by the kind of practical biblical help and hope they hear on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, the resources they find on our website, the events that we are able to host\u2014you make all of this possible when you support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. And we\u2019re grateful for your financial support. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, we\u2019d love to express our gratitude today, when you make a donation, by sending you a copy of David Murrow\u2019s book, <em>Drowning in Screen Time<\/em>. Be sure to ask for it when you donate. You can donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation. Again, David\u2019s book is called <em>Drowning in Screen Time<\/em>. Request your copy when you donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, all of us interact with our screens differently. Tomorrow, Dave and Ann Wilson are going to talk with David Murrow about the different ways different people respond and the dangers associated with each of those different kinds of responses. I hope you can be back with us for that tomorrow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:24:51"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["22.75M"],"filesize_raw":["23850880"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-307282.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-307282.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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can give us the false impression that we rule our digital kingdom with the touch of a button. David Murrow warns us that having the tools is not the problem, but drowning in them is.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-11-02.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So I\u2019m going to make us do something right now. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I want to do the screen time check on your phone. I just want to know what your number is compared to my number. Daily average: \u201cWhat is your daily average?\u201d\u2014just say it! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m so embarrassed! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWelcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So we\u2019re talking about screen time today. I just want to know what your number is compared to my number. I\u2019m competitive, so I\u2019m just hoping it\u2019s higher than six hours. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, we\u2019ve been doing radio all week;\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Okay; sounds like an excuse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014so I\u2019ve been on it, because this is where we study on our phone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It sounds like you\u2019re making an excuse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Four hours. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, mine\u2019s higher! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, it\u2019s 57 minutes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m 5 hours and 14 minutes, but I\u2019m <em>down<\/em> 31 percent from last week. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOkay; so we\u2019re talking about screen time today, because this little device in our hands\u2014whether it is a phone, or an iPad<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, or a computer screen\u2014it can dominate our lives. Look at you; you can\u2019t even\/can\u2019t even get your eyes off of it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m on my phone four hours a day?! What am I <em>doing<\/em> with my life?! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, we\u2019re going to find out; because we\u2019re going to get some help today from David Murrow. He wrote a book about this. He\u2019s\/he can help us; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid, welcome back to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Good to be with you again. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, we\u2019re glad to have you here. You wrote a book called <em>Drowning in Screen Time<\/em>\u2014which I was going to say, \u201cMy wife is drowning,\u201d\u2014but if I\u2019m an hour more a <em>day<\/em>\u2014was that a <em>day<\/em>?\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u20145 hours, 14 minutes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I am <em>very<\/em> discouraged. I hope I can get my mind back on what we are doing here because that\u2019s\u2014David, pull yours up; let\u2019s see. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> I shut mine off before the broadcast. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Look at that; of course, he did\u2014he wrote a book about this\u2014he knows how <em>bad<\/em> this is. Hey, by the way, I just noticed my number-one app that I spent the most hours on is my camera. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Well, you know, sometimes\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, you\u2019re going to tell me that\u2019s not true. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> I\u2019m going to let you off the hook a little bit. Sometimes, people use their alarm clocks\/their phone as an alarm clock. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; I do that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> I\u2019ll do that. My thing is: \u201cYou were on 11 hours a day.\u201d I\u2019ll go, \u201cWhat?\u201d Well, eight hours a day of that was my clock. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That is what mine is; there you go. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Recently, you\u2019ve written more about this screen time thing. In fact, the subtitle\u2014which is really interesting is\u2014<em>A Lifeline for Adults, Parents, Teachers, and Ministers Who Want to Reclaim Their Real Lives<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve already talked this week about sort of the epidemic of screens in our lives and how they can really be detrimental; but how do they keep us away from your title there, real lives? Do they really keep us away from real life? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Oh, they absolutely do. One of the parables that I use at the beginning of the book\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, you have five parables. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u2014it\u2019s based on five parables. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, I like those. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> One of the parables is\/I call it the parable of the kingdom. David was elevated to the role of king. When he became king, he was\/he encountered lots of pressures that he had never known as a shepherd boy; for example, presiding over a kingdom; he could suddenly summon any food that he wanted\u2014well, we can do that with our phones now\u2014[Laughter]\u2014he could banish heretics and turncoats and put rivals to the sword\u2014we can do that on Twitter<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe whole thing adds up to: you create this digital kingdom over which you reign as lord and master. You decide what ideas will be tolerated, what ideas will be cancelled, who can come in, and who can come out of your royal presence. There are algorithms that function like digital yes-men. They look over your shoulder while you surf the web; and then they provide you with more content that tells you, \u201cOh, you\u2019re right!\u201d They back up the things that you already believe; or if you are the type who likes to fight online, your social media feed is going to fill up with ideas that you <em>hate<\/em> so that you can fight with those people.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAll of it adds up to this digital kingdom over which we reign as lord and master. I think that is very unhealthy. Then you go into the real world, where nothing\/you don\u2019t reign over anything. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You have control over <em>nothing<\/em>. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Yes, in the digital world, you have complete control over what happens. In the real world, you control almost nothing: there is no on\/off button if your car breaks down; there is no way to unfriend toxic coworkers. What it is doing is we are having this generation of young people, who are growing up digital\u2014they are accustomed to having this high level of control in their lives in their digital lives\u2014and they are not adapting well to real life, because it doesn\u2019t yield to their preferences. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wow! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> That\u2019s just the natural result of kids, who have grown up on social media\u2014and have unfriended, unclicked, cancelled things\u2014that\u2019s just been their thing; they are trying to bring that ethos into the real world:\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u201cIdeas that I don\u2019t like should not be there.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It is a fantasy world. The fantasy world is much easier\/ simpler than the real world, because the <em>real<\/em> world is difficult. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> The real world is <em>very<\/em> difficult, and it always has been; but we\u2019ve never had this sanctuary that we have today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> It\u2019s so easy to retreat into video games\u2014nobody really dies\u2014but you get to be this heroic guy. It <em>is<\/em> a fantasy world, and it accommodates our needs; it slowly molds to our preferences. It really doesn\u2019t let any other content or ideas in. It really becomes castle walls around our minds. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> There are <em>good<\/em> things. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Let\u2019s talk about that for just a second; because we don\u2019t want to say [scolding voice], \u201cThis is awful; there is nothing good.\u201d What are the good things? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Well, just for\u2014I\u2019ll give you an example from my book\u2014I was walking down the street the other day with my wife in Alaska. We walked past this patch of daisies that my daughter had always loved picking as a child. We tapped on our phones, and we could see that she was at the store far away. We got on Face Time<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, and we showed her the daisies. We saw her and our grandson; she lives in <em>Australia<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, goodness! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Really? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> We\u2019re in Alaska; she\u2019s in Australia. Yet, I knew where she was; and I was able to talk to her in real time. You couldn\u2019t even do that until 2011, so it\u2019s really done a good job of allowing us to keep in touch with our far-flung loved ones. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>David:<\/strong> And really, during the pandemic, it has been a lifeline. I couldn\u2019t even imagine going through these shutdowns that we did\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u2014without these wonderful tools. The problem isn\u2019t that we have the tools. The problem is when we drown in the tools\/when they become our reality. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; it\u2019s interesting, you say in the book\u2014and you\u2019ve already talked about, David; but you use these three terms of attributes that are god-like or attributes that are divine\u2014and you say digital\/the screen sort of gives us\/can you talk about those? Those are very interesting to think: \u201cThese are only what God can do; and yet, we have some similar powers.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> We can be omniscient; we can <em>know<\/em> anything right now. If you want to know any fact, you can just go to your pocket and find it in about 15 seconds. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe can be omnipresent, which is really good when you work from Alaska. I can beam into a Zoom meeting in South Africa if that\u2019s necessary. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOmniscient, omnipresent\u2014and omnipotent would be the other one\u2014although we haven\u2019t quite reached omnipotence, we certainly have powers; for example, if my daughter in Australia needs money,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u2014I can just click a couple of buttons. I don\u2019t have to send a ship full of jewels and gold down there. [Laughter] I can just click a couple of buttons on my computer; and within hours, she has the money. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have these powers and presence that we\u2019ve <em>never<\/em> had before, and these are <em>wonderful<\/em> things as long as they don\u2019t <em>displace<\/em> real life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So if I am a guy, who is listening to this\u2014and we talked about it earlier\u2014maybe, I have a problem; and I\u2019m guessing I\u2019m among millions of people who have a problem. What are some steps? I\u2019ve got to get a grip on this. You have written a book to help me. I\u2019m drowning. I didn\u2019t think I was drowning, but I\u2019m drowning in screen time. I make a decision: \u201cYou know what? This is something I don\u2019t want to do,\u201d\u2014where do I start? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Well, step number one is always confession; the first step in repentance is confession. Go to a trusted confidant. If you are married, go to your wife\u2014certainly, that would be the first one\u2014and ask the question that you mentioned in the previous episode: \u201cIs this a problem for me?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Just be honest and don\u2019t explode when you hear the answer; it\u2019s probably going to be \u201cYes.\u201d Just confess to someone, and then find the help you need. The same technologies that addict us can also liberate us, especially if you have an addiction to pornography, for example. There are some wonderful tools out there, like Covenant Eyes, that provide mutual accountability. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, the early philosophy was filters: \u201cLet\u2019s stop it before it gets to your phone.\u201d Filters don\u2019t work; you can get around them. Covenant Eyes has switched to a new philosophy, which is mutual accountability. My accountability partner gets screen shots\/random screen shots of my phone; he sees what I\u2019m seeing. Once you have that accountability relationship in place, your buddy can help you back off from unhealthy screen content. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs far as the number of hours of screen content, you definitely want to be checking your weekly screen time report. There are wonderful tools. There is one called Forest, which I just love. You put it on your phone; and you say, \u201cI don\u2019t want to get on my phone for two hours.\u201d During two hours, trees grow on your phone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Really?! I\u2019ve never heard of this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> And if you do anything with your phone in the next two hours, the trees\u2014[wilting sound]\u2014they die! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So you want to keep them growing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So it\u2019s an app? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> It\u2019s an app; yes. One of the nice things, too, is they take some of the money and use it for forestation projects in poor countries;\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s cool. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u2014they actually plant real trees. I love the idea. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are lots and lots of tools out there that are willing to help you if you have a mild screen addiction. Now, if it is <em>severe<\/em>, you may need something: in-patient treatment; you may need to go to a tech-free retreat; you may need to do a detox weekend. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, it\u2019s interesting that we haven\u2019t said a whole lot about the dark side. You mentioned pornography\u2014there are obviously websites and places you can go\u2014and there are tools like Covenant Eyes. I know, years ago, when my boys were in high school, I had Covenant Eyes with them to me. Again, if they went somewhere on their phone, I would get an email. I had it with some guys that held me accountable. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Good; good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019ll never forget. One day, one of my sons\u2014I get an email that says he looked at nude photos of some celebrity; right?\u2014I see that, so I call him up\u2014I\u2019m like, \u201cDude, what is going on?\u201d He had\/I don\u2019t think he was lying; he was like, \u201cDad, that isn\u2019t what happened! I did this thing that wasn\u2019t this, but it\u2019s going to show up like that.\u201d I clicked on what it said he went to. As soon as I did that, I\u2019m like, \u201cUh-oh; now, <em>mine<\/em> is going to go to my guy; right?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Sure enough! Jon Kitna was my guy; he was the quarterback for the Lions back in the day\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Oh, yes; I\u2019ve seen him play. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014<em>great<\/em> guy\u2014and we were <em>great<\/em> friends. He was one of my accountability guys. Sure enough, I got the call from Jon. You can imagine what he thought, \u201cJon, that wasn\u2019t me; that was my son. He actually didn\u2019t do it.\u201d He goes, \u201cNow, you\u2019re <em>lying<\/em>?! You\u2019re throwing your son under the bus, because you had a\u2026\u201d It was all totally innocent; it really was\u2014I\u2019m not saying I\u2019ve always been perfect or anybody has\u2014but that accountability software was a lifesaver. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, it is something that, if you are struggling, you <em>have<\/em> to get that on there. Do you think it really does work? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> You know it does. The pornographers are very smart. They use a man\u2019s natural desire to seek out companionship against them; they are using our brains against us. It\u2019s definitely a growing problem. I think accountability is probably the best way to deal with it if you\/especially to nip it in the bud with young men. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think the thing that\u2019s discouraging as parents is, if you have teenagers, and you feel overwhelmed\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> They may not even be teenagers. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; but there is this feeling: \u201cMy house is out of control; and when I\u2019m talking to my kids about it, they are angry,\u201d especially when [they] are going into video games, even. It\u2019s just really hard to get your kids back. I\u2019ve talked to so many moms, who feel helpless, like: \u201cI don\u2019t know what to do,\u201d and \u201cI don\u2019t know how to get my family back.\u201d How would you encourage <em>them<\/em>? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Well, all the screen time has displaced real life. The best thing to do\u2014well, if they are not willing to talk about it, and they are not willing to see the error of their ways\u2014then you have to displace screen life with real life\/real life activities. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is one of the things Andy Crouch talks about in his book and some of the other things. If they are on the screens all the time, then get them out into soccer, or throw them out of the house\u2014or one of the best things I say is\u2014implement this early if you can: screen-free after dinner. When you come to the table, then you surrender your devices; everything turns off. Everything turns completely off\u2014no TV noise\u2014even mute. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014so <em>nothing<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> So there is no screen activity in the house; have those family conversations around the dinner table, as awkward as they may be; but get back into that. Then after dinner, it\u2019s screen free. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNo screens in the bedroom is the other thing. Once you let a kid take a screen in the bedroom, you\u2019ve lost a lot of territory\u2014you\u2019re back on your own ten-yard line\u2014to use a football metaphor. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> You definitely want to get it early and set these boundaries\/set these expectations as soon as you can. One of the most difficult situations is where you have a joint custody situation, where one parent is very lenient about screens, and the other is very tough. Boy, that is a really, really difficult one. You\u2019ve got to try to get on the same page as your ex-. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Then with little kids, I just read a study that said, \u201cOur kids should not have any screen time before the age of two.\u201d It\u2019s just an easy babysitter, you know, with infants, especially if you are on the plane. What do you encourage with that? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Yes, the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends no screen time before 18 months; and then at that point, you could give them a little bit of screen time as long as you are <em>with<\/em> them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> You don\u2019t really want to park them in front of the screens if you can avoid it until about age three. Then, of course, it should be age-appropriate content. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are two kinds of screen time: there is interactive screen time, and there is passive screen time. One riles the brain up more than the other\u2014that\u2019s the interactive\u2014the passive screen time is just where you are sitting there, watching TV or you are video chatting. You\u2019re not really changing what is on the screen; it does less to stimulate the brain. That\u2019s healthier for kids than interactive screen time, which is handing them a tablet or something like that; because they are changing and manipulating what is going on the screen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014even if it is educational? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u2014even if it is educational. Their brain is still operating at a higher level. It\u2019s like the difference between going to an art gallery and making a painting. Passive screen time is like going to an art gallery; you are just simply looking at the lovely paintings. If you are making a painting, your brain works a lot harder. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So especially before bed, it would probably be hard to wind down. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u2014after interacting\u2014yes, very, very difficult with interactive screen time. The danger there is, if you are handing your kid a tablet to pacify them,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u2014you are teaching them to go to a screen when their emotions are high; soothe themselves with screens. That is like the exact <em>opposite<\/em> of what you want to do. When I see kids in the mall\u2014with their parents\u2019 phones, or a tablet or something\u2014it just\/it <em>frightens<\/em> me; because they are teaching them to go to screens instead of regulating the emotions themselves. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, think about, if you are a withdrawer in a relationship, and conflict arises\u2014and you\u2019ve been trained, as a child, to pacify your emotions by your screen\u2014so then, as an adult, if you are in a difficult conversation\/in a fight, you\u2019re automatically going to want to go to your screen to pacify these emotions. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Right; you\u2019ll never deal with the underlying issue. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Yes. I have heard parents say, \u201cMy kids, with the screens, they are like Gollum: \u2018My <em>precious<\/em>.\u2019\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> I expanded on that analogy in the book. Your screens are like your golden ring of power. If you have a kid, who is crying or whatever, you can give them this ring; and you can make them invisible\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, goodness! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u2014they disappear, just like <em>Lord of the Rings<\/em>\u2014but they become visible to advertisers, who want their money; extremists, who want their mind; and predators, who want their body. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> I think the analogy\u2014it\u2019s a chilling one\u2014so you definitely don\u2019t want to turn your kids into Gollums. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yet\u2014you hear that\u2014yet, as a parent with young kids; I <em>know<\/em>, because we\u2019ve been there\u2014you\u2019re just <em>exhausted<\/em>. [Laughter] You\u2019re like, \u201cThis is so much easier. For the next 30 minutes or an hour, I\u2019m going to hand them a cartoon they can watch.\u201d Yet, it\u2019s <em>not<\/em> the right call; is it? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> It can be in limited amounts; it all depends on whether this is your go-to. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Of course, there are going to be times\u2014and the nice thing that has come along in our day is streaming media\u2014so the advertisers are cut out of the equation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> There is good, quality content for young kids on both secular and Christian channels, if you\u2019re careful. Most of the Christian stuff is <em>great<\/em>. Even on Netflix<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, you can even be very selective about what you show your kids. There are some good\u2014that teach good, wholesome morals and stuff like that\u2014it\u2019s not all a cesspool. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYes, if you are very careful and discerning about what you show, you can park them on occasion\u2014as long as it\u2019s not your go-to\u2014and give them plenty of other analog toys to play with; throw them out in the yard, and let them play and be kids. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; I know\/I\u2019m thinking of: \u201cWhat are healthy alternatives?\u201d because our kids are going to kick and scream and be mad if we kind of lay down the law of: \u201cOkay, after dinner, we are <em>done<\/em> with screens.\u201d That will probably be hard for a little bit, but then they get into a habit. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think it makes us, as parents, have to really be <em>involved<\/em>. I\u2019m thinking about\/I think, after dinner when our kids were little, was some of our favorite times; especially in the summer, because we would be outside. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We would be playing, and we would be there too. I\u2019m just thinking of all the Slip \u2018N Slides and the hockey games, and we were putting tents up and forts up in the woods. That is good for our brains, for our bodies, for our relationships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> What about family reading? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> I mean, reading together as a family. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Those were some of my <em>favorite<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> My kids <em>still<\/em> talk about that; that was their favorite time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Us too! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> They were still squirrelly; and they squirmed; and they lay backward on the couch, but they were listening. They were absorbing the values we taught them\/good values in the books that we read them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, what age would you advise giving a son or a daughter a phone or a tablet? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> That\u2019s a hard one; it depends on the individual. I\u2019ve heard none before 13 or 14. There are products\u2014I\u2019m not shilling for anybody\u2014but I know there is a company out there called Gab Wireless that will do a lockdown smartphone\u2014it only texts to the parents\u2014it\u2019s a phone. All the things, where kids can get in trouble, are off the phone. But it looks like an iPhone<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>; the kids still have the social capital, but they don\u2019t have the possibility of being contacted by a predator. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good alternative. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good call. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> There are products out there like that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> All I know is, as we\u2019ve talked about today, there is good\/and there is a <em>lot<\/em> of really good that comes from screens. It\u2019s <em>amazing<\/em> technology in our world. Yet, just like anything else, there is the dark side\u2014it isn\u2019t just the porn or the predators\u2014it\u2019s the dark side of <em>pulling<\/em> families apart. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> The number of hours, yes; we displace those moments, that are so precious that we can\u2019t get back. It\u2019s easier to look at a phone than it is to put up a tent in the yard, like you were saying; but boy, what are you going to remember?\u2014what are the kids going to remember? They are going to remember that tent, falling down on their heads, and laughing. Those moments are irreplaceable. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs followers of Jesus, we need to focus on those things that are important, and are of eternal value, and not the things that are fleeting and interesting in the moment. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m recalling all the nights that we spent, before our kids went to bed, just lying in their room, reading the Bible, reading books like novels that were <em>so good<\/em>. They do remember those times of reading and even asking them questions at night before they went to bed. Those days are irreplaceable. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was thinking, \u201cMan, wouldn\u2019t that be good just to implement that rule of: \u2018Hey, at dinnertime and beyond, there is no screen time\u2019?\u201d It really could change our families. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> I think it gets you to the 50-yard line, really, to continue our football analogy here. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You keep wanting to go into football. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> No, it\u2019s really\u2014people say, \u201cWhat\u2019s one thing I can do?\u201d\u2014I\u2019d say the number-one thing you can do is you collect the screens at dinnertime; no screens in the bedroom, and every screen is shut off. The one exception would be if you wanted to have a family movie night. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>David:<\/strong> But then you are doing everything together\u2014you\u2019re make popcorn; you\u2019re watching a fun movie\u2014that\u2019s <em>great<\/em>; that\u2019s a good use of screen time. But other than that, you really want to avoid that being alone together problem, where everyone is on their individual screen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m telling you\u2014you are going to build more resilient kids the more you put them into the real world\u2014the more they suffer the disappointment of losing their soccer match, or the tent that falls down, or the bee sting they get. I mean, they are perfectly physical safe in the house; but the young people today are so non-resilient, because they have been protected so much inside of our homes by a screen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; if you put the screen down, you\u2019re going to create a memory. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I\u2019m thinking, Dave. I\u2019m recalling all of our kids said\u2014we\u2019ve asked them, now that they are adults\u2014\u201cWhat are the <em>best<\/em> memories that you have growing up?\u201d One of them said\u2014and I\u2019ve shared this before\u2014but he said, \u201cWhen you guys pray for us every night before we go to bed altogether in the same room, that has stuck with me.\u201d None of them has said, \u201c\u2026the times that we were on our screens together\u201d; no one has said that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> \u201cThat high score in my video game; that was my best!\u201d\u2014no. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> No, that\u2019s not it; because God made us for relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I think all of us know that there is a difference between digital life and real life. There is a difference between a digital relationship and a real relationship. There is a difference between a Facebook<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> friend and a real friend. We want to be in pursuit of what is <em>real<\/em>. That\u2019s at the heart of what Dave and Ann Wilson have been talking with David Murrow about. David has written a book called <em>Drowning in Screen Time<\/em> that helps all of us understand how we are being impacted\u2014as parents, as teenagers, singles\u2014all of us are being affected by the omnipresence of a screen in our life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are making David\u2019s book available this week to any <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listener who can help advance the ministry of FamilyLife through a donation. When you support this ministry\u2014help us expand the reach of FamilyLife so that more people are being impacted by the kind of practical biblical help and hope they hear on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, the resources they find on our website, the events that we are able to host\u2014you make all of this possible when you support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. And we\u2019re grateful for your financial support. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, we\u2019d love to express our gratitude today, when you make a donation, by sending you a copy of David Murrow\u2019s book, <em>Drowning in Screen Time<\/em>. Be sure to ask for it when you donate. You can donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation. Again, David\u2019s book is called <em>Drowning in Screen Time<\/em>. Request your copy when you donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, all of us interact with our screens differently. Tomorrow, Dave and Ann Wilson are going to talk with David Murrow about the different ways different people respond and the dangers associated with each of those different kinds of responses. I hope you can be back with us for that tomorrow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. 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