{"id":307273,"date":"2021-10-26T07:00:24","date_gmt":"2021-10-26T11:00:24","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/following-jesus-in-a-new-babylon\/"},"modified":"2025-01-29T11:02:21","modified_gmt":"2025-01-29T16:02:21","slug":"following-jesus-in-a-new-babylon","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/following-jesus-in-a-new-babylon\/","title":{"rendered":"Following Jesus in a New Babylon"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>How are our kids actually living out their\u00a0faith in a post-Christian world? David Kinnaman and Mark Matlock, authors of &#8220;Faith for Exiles,&#8221; explain the difference between the four types of spiritual exiles:\u00a0&#8220;nomads&#8221; or lapsed Christians, habitual church goers, prodigals\u00a0who have left the faith behind, and resilient disciples-those with a vibrant and robust faith. Together they remind parents of the correlation between parents who are on fire for the Lord with a vibrant faith and kids who spiritually follow in their footsteps.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>David Kinnaman and Mark Matlock explain the four types of spiritual exiles. They remind parents of the correlation between parents with a vibrant faith and kids who follow in their footsteps.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-08-04.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:28:48","filesize":"26.37M","filesize_raw":"27655189","date_recorded":"2021-10-26 07:00:24","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822,2806,2855],"tags":[4427],"podcast_series":[8379],"cwp_profile":[9638,9639],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307273","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","category-spiritual-development","category-teens","tag-sharing-the-gospel","podcast_series-faith-for-exiles","cwp_profile-david-kinnaman","cwp_profile-mark-matlock","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307273\/following-jesus-in-a-new-babylon","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307273\/following-jesus-in-a-new-babylon","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"zAqZ1gEnFQ\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/following-jesus-in-a-new-babylon\/\">Following Jesus in a New Babylon<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/following-jesus-in-a-new-babylon\/embed\/#?secret=zAqZ1gEnFQ\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Following Jesus in a New Babylon&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"zAqZ1gEnFQ\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-08-04.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-08-04.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>We\u2019ve heard a lot recently about people who are Nones\u2014people who have no religious affiliation\u2014that\u2019s a growing segment of our society. Mark Matlock says there are teenagers and young adults who may be closeted Nones; they don\u2019t want to disclose what they really don\u2019t believe anymore.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> What we\u2019re seeing a lot of today is a sense of: \u201cYou know what? I really respect my mom and dad\u2019s faith. I don\u2019t want to come out yet and tell them I\u2019m not a Christian, because I\u2019m going to hurt their feelings. I\u2019m going to wait until I\u2019m maybe a little older in life to let them know that I don\u2019t follow this anymore,\u201d because they have respect.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s really important, because it used to be this was a hostile group. Now, it\u2019s kind of a group of: \u201cEven if you convince me it\u2019s true, I still probably wouldn\u2019t buy into it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, August 4<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You\u2019ll find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Why are so many young adults losing their grip on what they were exposed to when they grew up, going to church? We\u2019re going to talk with researchers, David Kinnaman and Mark Matlock about that today. Stay with us.<\/p>\n<p>And welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. There\u2019s a raging question today about whether we should refer to the country in which we live as post-Christian or whether that\u2019s too harsh an appraisal. What do you think?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I think we should bring some people on the show that are experts on the answer to that question. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> [Sounding like a chicken] [Laughter] Chicken about answering that; aren\u2019t you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think we\u2019re post-.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Do you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>I do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Do you think we\u2019re past\u2014do you think we can pull it back?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I <em>do<\/em> think we can bring it back.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Bob, define that. What would \u201cbring it back\u201d look like?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Can we be a country again where Christian values are the norm, even for people who don\u2019t go to church?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Do we want to?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Oh, that\u2019s a good question.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think only God can answer that question.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Let\u2019s see how these guys do answer that question. We\u2019ve got Dave Kinnaman and Mark Matlock joining us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Guys, welcome back.<\/p>\n<p><strong>David:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark: <\/strong>Good to be with you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> David is joining us remotely; he\u2019s at his office in Southern California. Mark is here in studio with us. Together, they\u2019ve worked on a book called <em>Faith for Exiles: 5 Ways for a New Generation to Follow Jesus in Digital Babylon.<\/em> We\u2019ve talked this week what we mean about that: we live in a culture where it\u2019s more like Babylon than Jerusalem. It\u2019s more like living in exile, more like being away from the place of God than being in the center of it.<\/p>\n<p>David gives leadership to the Barna Group and all of the great research that the Barna Group has done. Mark is a pastor\/was a youth volunteer for years. He\u2019s a churchman and a researcher.<\/p>\n<p>Part of your research here was to look at Generation Z and Millennials and kind of take their spiritual temperature. You said there are\u2014is it right?\u2014four tribes, basically, that you identified in that group?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> Yes; there are four groups that we found in that time. Your original question: \u201cCan we bring it back?\u201d\u2014I don\u2019t know that we need to worry about \u201cgetting things back\u201d; that\u2019s a lot of energy to spend. I think the question is: \u201cHow do you we live and be a faithful presence in the context we\u2019re in?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark: <\/strong>And I think that this\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I wanted to say. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark: <\/strong>And this is\u2014[Laughter]\u2014is that it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> I think that these four segments show some of that. We looked at the faith practices of 18-29-year-olds. We basically broke them into four categories, based on what we saw. The people that we surveyed in this research project: we were looking at people who had said, \u201cI presently, or at some time in my life, identified as a Christian.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> These are kids, who grew up going to church\u2014they probably went to youth camp\/probably were involved in youth group\u2014at some point, they prayed a prayer or felt like they were part of the church community.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark: <\/strong>Correct. Just to be clear, that\u2019s about 83 percent of that population. That\u2019s often surprising to people. Just to give you an idea\u2014some people go, \u201cWell, you\u2019re only talking to 10 percent of the 18-29-year-olds,\u201d\u2014no; 83 percent were\u2014that was our sample pool that we could draw from.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Are you saying any religious instruction? So Jewish kids, who grew up going to Hebrew school, be included in this?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> If they identified as a Christian.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Identified as a Christian; okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> They identified as a Christian at some time in their life; yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Alright.<\/p>\n<p><strong>David:<\/strong> It\u2019s one of the biggest surprises of my career, in working with Barna for so long\u201425 years\u2014is the sheer volume of the people who say they\u2019re Christian in America. More than eight out of ten say they\u2019re Christian; more than seven out of ten say they\u2019ve made a commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their life.<\/p>\n<p>Growing up as a pastor\u2019s kid, I would have thought everyone was a heathen\/everyone was a non-Christian. But when you look at the stats, we\u2019re a very Christianized nation, even to this day. We\u2019re not a very Christ-<em>following<\/em> nation.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> David, how many of those, who would say, \u201cI grew up as a Christian,\u201d are saying, \u201cI didn\u2019t grow up as Jewish, or Muslim, or atheist, or agnostic; so I\u2019m a Christian by default,\u201d as opposed to a Christian by practice. Do we know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>David:<\/strong> A majority of them; I don\u2019t have the exact percentage. But most people grow up in a, what\u2019s really a culturally-Christian home, than a devout Christian home.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> So in the 83 percent, you\u2019ve got a lot of cultural Christians mixed in with the church-going kids.<\/p>\n<p><strong>David:<\/strong> Correct.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Alright; so with that 83 percent, who have self-identified [as a Christian at some point in their life]; and then, now, they\u2019re in a place. You\u2019re asking: \u201cWhere are they?\u201d You\u2019ve said there are four different places they\u2019re landing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> The first group are what we call \u201cprodigals.\u201d These are people, who say, \u201cI identified as a Christian at some point of time in my life. I absolutely do not identify as a Christian today.\u201d That makes up about 22 percent of that population.<\/p>\n<p>What\u2019s important to note is\u2014for one of David\u2019s other books, <em>You Lost Me<\/em>, which really looked at the dropout problem in the church\u2014that number was about 11 percent just about 8 years ago. In less than a decade, that number has <em>doubled<\/em> for 18-29-year-olds, who say, \u201cThis isn\u2019t just \u2018I don\u2019t go to church anymore\u2019; this is, \u2018I do not consider myself a Christian any longer.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The next group are what we call the \u201cnomads\u201d or lapsed Christians. These are people, who say, \u201cI\u2019m a Christian still\u201d; but they\u2019re not really connected to a community of faith. So going to church\u2014they kind of don\u2019t see the church as the place they get their spiritual instruction or belonging to.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019ve heard people call themselves \u201cde-churched\u201d or pastors talk about the \u201cde-churched.\u201d Is that who these nomads are?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> Some of them could be nomads, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay; alright.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> So we kind of take it as: \u201cThey\u2019re looking for their spiritual experience outside of the community of faith.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>David:<\/strong> They\u2019re the most prolific problem, if you will, in American Christianity and American faith\u2014is people who say they\u2019re Christian, who sort of\u2014they\u2019re all onboard for all the good stuff about Christianity, but they <em>never<\/em> attend church or they very rarely. They sort of <em>love<\/em> Jesus but not the church.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> When we talk about people, who are walking away from the church, and you hear that phrase\u2014it\u2019s really these nomads and prodigals we\u2019re talking about\u2014is this group that\u2019s walking away in some way, shape, and form.<\/p>\n<p>I think another important thing to notice\/that we\u2019ve noticed about the prodigals is we\u2019re entering into an era of polite atheism, where\u2014while there\u2019s always a fraction of those prodigals that are hostile toward Christianity as they come out of it\u2014what we\u2019re seeing a lot of today is a sense of: \u201cYou know what? I really respect my mom and dad\u2019s faith. I don\u2019t want to come out yet and tell them I\u2019m not a Christian, because I\u2019m going to hurt their feelings. I\u2019m going to wait until I\u2019m maybe a little older in life to let them know that I don\u2019t follow this anymore,\u201d because they have respect.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s really important, because it used to be this was a hostile group. Now, it\u2019s a group of: \u201cEven if you convince me it\u2019s true, I still probably wouldn\u2019t buy into it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Wow; so of the 18-29-year-olds, are most of them nomads and prodigals? Or do they fit into the other two categories that we haven\u2019t talked about yet?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> The two that we\u2019re looking at right now are the \u201chabituals\u201d and the \u201cresilients.\u201d The habituals and the resilients are those that are still attending church, and they\u2019re attending it with a pretty good frequency. The habitual churchgoers make about<\/p>\n<p>38 percent of those 18-29-year-olds.<\/p>\n<p><strong>David:<\/strong> Habitual churchgoers are simply that\u2014they are self-identified Christians, 18-29. They attend church, at least, on a monthly basis. They have a pretty good connection to their faith.<\/p>\n<p>That was a really interesting comparison to this fourth group that we\u2019re talking about\u2014which are these resilient disciples\u2014that that represented just 10 percent: one in ten 18-29-year-old young people, who grew up [and] experienced Christianity in some fashion.<\/p>\n<p>The only difference, really, between the habitual churchgoers and these resilient disciples\u2014there\u2019s a couple things that are actually pretty important\u2014but they believe in the authority of Scripture. Many habitual churchgoers believe that, but it wasn\u2019t necessarily true of all of them. They believe in the death and the resurrection of Jesus; again, most habituals believe that, but not necessarily. And then they believe that they want their faith to be expressed out in the world in a meaningful and positive way\u2014that Jesus is alive outside the walls of the church.<\/p>\n<p>What\u2019s interesting is the habitual churchgoers\u2014which represent 38 percent, the largest group of 18-29-year-olds\u2014and resilient samples, there\u2019s actually not a lot of differences in terms of their engagement in the church. This is what we\u2019ve been saying, all along together, is that: \u201cIf you\u2019re just looking at whether your young person is attending church; attending youth group; or, as a young adult, is attending church\u2014that may or may not be enough of an indicator about how <em>deep<\/em> their faith is.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s one of the clearest things we saw in this research\u2014is that just being engaged in a church isn\u2019t enough to combat the effects of this screen-discipleship era\u2014it\u2019s not a deep enough faith for it to last in our current context.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> I want to go back to those three things, because I think this is important for moms and dads to hear.<\/p>\n<p>Authority of Scripture: the difference between a resilient Christian and a habitual Christian is\u2014the resilient Christian: that\u2019s bedrock for them. For a habitual Christian, the Bible is important; but they\u2019re hearing stuff in the culture that\u2019s causing them to question whether they can still believe the Bible; right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> That\u2019s exactly right, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Then, the resurrection of Christ\u2014that\u2019s the second thing\u2014\u201cDo you really believe that Jesus died and came back to life from death?\u201d The habitual Christian is going, \u201cI\u2019ve heard that all my life. I suppose that\u2019s true; but when it comes right down to it, I\u2019m not sure I believe that.\u201d Is that accurate?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> Yes, exactly. It\u2019s almost as though we see this really interesting thing among young people, which is they can believe one thing logically, and then sort of reject it in another fashion. They may believe that the resurrection is sort of true, kind of like a legend or a myth; and it probably has bearing on our faith. But they don\u2019t necessarily believe it was <em>physically<\/em> true, right? It\u2019s almost like it was an old wives\u2019 tale that Jesus must have risen from the dead. \u201cBesides, it doesn\u2019t really matter that much,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s the voice of these young habitual churchgoers, or prodigals, or nomads\u2014whereas, these resilient disciples are <em>convinced<\/em> of the death and resurrection of Jesus in a much more tangible way in their life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> It really is interesting\u2014you used the words, \u201cchurchgoer\u201d and \u201cdisciple.\u201d That\u2019s, I\u2019m guessing, a word that really defined these two differences. There are habitual churchgoers, but a disciple is what Bob was getting at\u2014there\u2019s a <em>big<\/em> difference. Even though it sounds subtle, it\u2019s <em>huge<\/em>; isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark: <\/strong>Yes; and I want to be really clear, too\u2014while we use certain criteria to distinguish them\u2014when we went deeper into the research, and we asked them all these profiling questions: about how they grew up, what their experience of Jesus was, what their prayer life was like\u2014we saw a <em>dramatic<\/em> difference between these habituals and these resilients. There\u2019s more going on there. They\u2019re going to church with about the same frequency; but they\u2019re having really different experiences with God, with Christ, with the Holy Spirit, with others in the church.<\/p>\n<p>We talked about the screen intake of digital Babylon. Just to give you an idea of the difference\u2014resilient disciples take in about 600 hours of spiritual content on their screens. Compare that to habituals\u2014they\u2019re almost half that\u2014just a little under 300 hours. There is a real difference in practice\u2014this isn\u2019t just a couple of doctrinal issues; those things helped us filter out that group\u2014but their experiences are really different, and their practices are really different.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Authority of Scripture, resurrection of Christ\u2014I don\u2019t want to miss that third thing\u2014in fact, I want to come back to this. You said that, for these people, living out their faith in a cultural context is very important to them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> It\u2019s central to their life, and they believe they live in the world to make a difference in the world.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m thinking of the young people I know, who are recognizing there is a <em>huge<\/em> relational and social cost to that decision to live out your faith. They\u2019re going, \u201cI don\u2019t know that I\u2019m ready to pay that price to be an active Christian; because the headwinds against that, in terms of my employment, in terms of who my friend group is, in terms of whether I\u2019m accepted or I\u2019m ghosted on social media.\u201d All of this is\/are the ramifications. If you say, \u201cI\u2019m going to live and make Jesus central to what I\u2019m doing,\u201d there are some people, who are going to leave you, and there other people, who are going to mock you as a result of that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> Yes; and that\u2019s such an inspiring vision that I think so few young adults have about what it means to live a countercultural life in Christ\/a vibrant life in Christ that actually goes against the flow in our culture. That sounds like someone in Scripture\/to me, it sounds like Daniel, who was recognized, who had these private practices of belief, of prayer, of devotion to Scripture. We can actually see, in Daniel, Chapter 9, where it says he\u2019s reading the Prophet Jeremiah. He\u2019s actually reading, doing devotions with Scripture. Based on that, he has this inner life that allows him to have an outward impact.<\/p>\n<p>Every young person, who\u2019s in this resilient disciple group that we interviewed, they don\u2019t want their faith to matter just on Sunday mornings. They want their faith to matter on all of life. They want their faith to matter on every vocation, not just in Christian ministry, but in all of the careers they\u2019re interested in. That\u2019s the kind of Christianity that we want our kids and grandkids to aspire to. It\u2019s, in fact, the kind of Christianity that is real and in the real world.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s what\u2019s pretty cool about interviewing these resilient disciples. As I said, this is such a hopeful project; because we learn the kinds of things these young people get inspired by and how much of a difference their faith makes in their lives.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m curious\u2014as you\u2019ve talked to these resilient disciples, is there a correlation between them and a parent that is a resilient disciple? You know, are they watching their parents, who are on fire for Jesus? Do you see more kids that are following Christ because they\u2019ve been watching their parents? Or is there any correlation?<\/p>\n<p><strong>David: <\/strong>There\u2019s a huge correlation between what a parent does and the faith of their kids. In this current context, because screens disciple, there\u2019s also never been a time when that correlation breaks down as much as it does today. So just because you\u2019re a good Christian parent\u2014it might have taken you a long way in the past\u2014it doesn\u2019t carry the same water that it did before.<\/p>\n<p>I think we should realize that the culture is so hard\/it is so faith-depleting, that even if you do all the right things, it may or may not work. So what do we do? We pray; we work hard; we continue to believe the best about this generation. We try not to control our kids; because ultimately, God is the One who is in charge\u2014but recognizing that parenting is a lot; but it\u2019s not sufficient, alone today, to raise kids in this current cultural moment.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> One of the things I found in doing these small groups with teenagers was how little they had a place to doubt or question on their spiritual journey. Some parents are so intense in their faith that they don\u2019t give kids the space to be able to ask the questions or to take some of the risks. We think: \u201cIf my kid doubts this,\u201d or \u201cIf they question this,\u201d\u2014that, somehow, they\u2019re weak; or \u201cSomehow, I\u2019ve done something wrong,\u201d rather than the fact that that\u2019s actually part of what produces resilience. It\u2019s in that doubt that they\u2019re able to actually lean into their faith even more and become strong.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> The scary thing is\u2014isn\u2019t it true?\u2014that if they can\u2019t express those doubts in their home, <em>and<\/em> they can\u2019t express them at church, where do they go?\u2014they go into a digital chat room, and they express them, and they get bad answers that they concur with.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; they go to Google<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, and type in their question, and see what kind of responses they get.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m wondering how many parents, who started as resilient parents, kind of lapsed into habitual Christian parents; so what their kids see, as they\u2019re growing up, is less resilience and more habit\u2014and thy pick <em>that<\/em> up. I think this is where we\u2019ve got to ask ourselves a question, as parents: \u201cDo our kids see a vital, daily, vibrant faith in us that\u2019s not just, \u2018Yes, we go to church; because that\u2019s who we are,\u2019\u2014but\u2014\u2018No, we go to church because we find <em>life<\/em> there; we read our Bibles during the week; we actually spend time praying together. This is important to us, not just something that\u2019s on our punch list that we do every week.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>David:<\/strong> I want to take it even a step further. When my kids were born, I started interviewing moms and dads, who I\u2019d seen hand their faith off to their adult children. I started asking lots of questions. What I did notice in their story was that their family was actually making disciples; they were light in dark places. What the kids were seeing was a demonstration of the power of God in front of them.<\/p>\n<p>They also were very vulnerable. One of the things that\u2019s interesting\u2014I get asked by parents a lot\u2014\u201cShould I tell my kids about my past?\u201d \u201cShould I tell my kids about\u2026?\u201d I always say, \u201cTo <em>not<\/em> do that would deny the power and the glory of God\u2019s work to your kids. They\u2019re seeing you, maybe with ten years of Christ, or more, working in you. They\u2019re dealing with their sin in the same way that you passed it on to them, which before you, is maybe earlier. They need to see the faithfulness of God in your life, not the end result. They need to see that process of grace working itself out.\u201d That\u2019s one of the things we saw happen in a lot of these homes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019re always concerned, as parents, that if we say too much we\u2019re going to somehow signal to our kids, \u201cIt\u2019s okay for you to live a profligate life as a teenager, because it will turn out in the end.\u201d What I hear you saying is\u2014we can go into that, with brokenness and weeping over the scars that were left in our life, and say, \u201cBut God redeemed me from that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> Show them the power of God.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Exactly; yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I shared Sunday in my sermon, which was about money. When my oldest son was probably 12 or 13, he walked into my office; and I\u2019m writing a check for my giving to God. Remember what a check was?\u2014you know those things? [Laughter] He looked over my shoulder, and he said\u2014his name is CJ\u2014he\u2019s like, \u201cDad, why would you give that?\u201d I know what he\u2019s thinking: \u201cI\u2019m not getting toys,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m not getting a vacation, because that\u2019s where all our money\u2019s\u2026\u201d He had no idea.<\/p>\n<p>Here\u2019s what hit me\u2014Exodus 13: \u201cHere\u2019s what you tell your son when he asks you, \u201cWhy?\u201d Remind him we were once slaves, but God\u2019s mighty hand\u2026.\u201d I turned to CJ right then. I said, \u201cYou don\u2019t know, but Dad used to be a bad man. I used to be in bondage to the same things your grandpa was in bondage to: alcohol, women, money. But God\u2019s mighty hand has saved us. Everything you have experienced in this life, CJ, God did that; so it\u2019s a <em>joy<\/em> to say, \u2018Thank you,\u2019 to Him.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> Giving is something really important that we do in private, but our kids don\u2019t see it. That\u2019s one of those <em>demonstrations<\/em> of the power of God.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> We want to talk about what we can do, as parents, to help tilt the odds in our favor so that our kids wind up as resilient, not as habituals, and certainly not as prodigals or nomads; right? Your book is so helpful. In fact, I\u2019m going to be passing this out to parents of teens I know.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s available for any of our listeners who would like to get a copy. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order your copy of the book online. Our website, again, is FamilyLifeToday.com. The book is called <em>Faith for Exiles<\/em> by David Kinnaman and Mark Matlock. You can also order by calling 1-800-FL-TODAY\u20141-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>At FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, our mission is to effectively develop godly marriages and families. We\u2019re focused really on four things here: your walk with God, your commitment to your marriage covenant, living out your responsibilities in marriage as husbands and as wives, and then passing on a legacy of faith to the next generation. Those are our marching orders; that\u2019s what we\u2019re all about, here, at FamilyLife.<\/p>\n<p>When it comes to your marriage, we know a lot of couples have been experiencing stress and strain in their marriage because we\u2019ve all been living through a time of disorientation, and stress, and strain in our world these days. FamilyLife has resources to help you there. We\u2019ve got the \u201cGood to Great\u201d marriage resource that\u2019s available for free online. There are video courses, audio messages, a downloadable e-book\u2014things you can go through\/listen to together that will help rebuild a fractured foundation or help strengthen your existing foundation. It\u2019s all free.<\/p>\n<p>When you sign up for the \u201cTake Your Marriage from Good to Great\u201d resource, you are automatically eligible to win a trip to FamilyLife, where you can sit in on a recording session for <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> and then have dinner with Dave and Ann Wilson. Somebody\u2019s going to win that. There\u2019s no purchase necessary; the contest ends<\/p>\n<p>August 14<sup>th<\/sup>. There are restrictions that apply. You can find the official rules, online, at FamilyLife.com\/good-contest. Check all of that out, and then enter regularly and get access to this \u201cTake Your Marriage from Good to Great\u201d resource.<\/p>\n<p>In addition, we\u2019d love for everybody, who\u2019s a <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listener, to have a copy of my new book, <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em>. The book is all about the Bible\u2019s definition of love, and how that differs from the cultural definition of love, and how a marriage is actually strengthened and enriched when we pursue the right kind of love in marriage. That book is our gift to you this month when you donate to support this ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Your donation makes <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>possible for hundreds of thousands of people, who are connecting with us every day on radio, via podcast, on our website, through the resources we create. You make that possible every time you support this ministry. Again, we\u2019d love to send you the book, <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em>, as a thank-you gift when you donate today. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to make an online donation, or call 1-800-FLTODAY to support the ongoing work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We appreciate you.<\/p>\n<p>We hope you can be back with us again tomorrow when we\u2019ll talk more about how we build resilience in the lives of children, our teenagers, and young adults; so they\u2019ve got a faith that endures. Mark Matlock and David Kinnaman will join us tomorrow. I hope you can join us as well.<\/p>\n<p>I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a><\/p>\n<p>1<\/p>\n"],"duration":["00:28:48"],"show_notes":["<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">Download FamilyLife's new app!<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">Check out all that's available on the FamilyLife Podcast Network.\u00a0\u00a0<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["26.37M"],"filesize_raw":["27655189"],"_edit_lock":["1738166546:47000"],"_edit_last":["47000"],"theme_header_position":["Sticky"],"post_header_is_sticky":["default"],"is_header_overlay":["0"],"episode_type":["audio"],"date_recorded":["2021-10-26 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});\";s:18:\"current_block_list\";a:17:{i:0;s:14:\"uagb\/container\";i:1;s:12:\"core\/heading\";i:2;s:9:\"core\/html\";i:3;s:10:\"core\/group\";i:6;s:21:\"uagb\/advanced-heading\";i:7;s:14:\"uagb\/separator\";i:8;s:14:\"uagb\/icon-list\";i:9;s:20:\"uagb\/icon-list-child\";i:10;s:11:\"core\/search\";i:13;s:18:\"core\/legacy-widget\";i:16;s:10:\"uagb\/image\";i:17;s:17:\"core\/social-links\";i:18;s:16:\"core\/social-link\";i:19;s:14:\"core\/paragraph\";i:20;s:30:\"meta-box\/fl-conditional-blocks\";i:21;s:12:\"uagb\/buttons\";i:22;s:18:\"uagb\/buttons-child\";}s:8:\"uag_flag\";b:1;s:11:\"uag_version\";i:1776535419;s:6:\"gfonts\";a:1:{s:7:\"Default\";a:2:{s:10:\"fontfamily\";s:7:\"Default\";s:12:\"fontvariants\";a:0:{}}}s:10:\"gfonts_url\";s:71:\"\/\/fonts.googleapis.com\/css?family=Default&subset=latin&display=fallback\";s:12:\"gfonts_files\";a:0:{}s:14:\"uag_faq_layout\";b:0;}"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"David Kinnaman and Mark Matlock explain the four types of spiritual exiles. They remind parents of the correlation between parents with a vibrant faith and kids who follow in their footsteps.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">Download FamilyLife's new app!<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">Check out all that's available on the FamilyLife Podcast Network.\u00a0\u00a0<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-08-04.pdf","transcript_content":"<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>We\u2019ve heard a lot recently about people who are Nones\u2014people who have no religious affiliation\u2014that\u2019s a growing segment of our society. Mark Matlock says there are teenagers and young adults who may be closeted Nones; they don\u2019t want to disclose what they really don\u2019t believe anymore.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> What we\u2019re seeing a lot of today is a sense of: \u201cYou know what? I really respect my mom and dad\u2019s faith. I don\u2019t want to come out yet and tell them I\u2019m not a Christian, because I\u2019m going to hurt their feelings. I\u2019m going to wait until I\u2019m maybe a little older in life to let them know that I don\u2019t follow this anymore,\u201d because they have respect.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s really important, because it used to be this was a hostile group. Now, it\u2019s kind of a group of: \u201cEven if you convince me it\u2019s true, I still probably wouldn\u2019t buy into it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, August 4<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You\u2019ll find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Why are so many young adults losing their grip on what they were exposed to when they grew up, going to church? We\u2019re going to talk with researchers, David Kinnaman and Mark Matlock about that today. Stay with us.<\/p>\n<p>And welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. There\u2019s a raging question today about whether we should refer to the country in which we live as post-Christian or whether that\u2019s too harsh an appraisal. What do you think?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I think we should bring some people on the show that are experts on the answer to that question. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> [Sounding like a chicken] [Laughter] Chicken about answering that; aren\u2019t you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think we\u2019re post-.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Do you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>I do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Do you think we\u2019re past\u2014do you think we can pull it back?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I <em>do<\/em> think we can bring it back.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Bob, define that. What would \u201cbring it back\u201d look like?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Can we be a country again where Christian values are the norm, even for people who don\u2019t go to church?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Do we want to?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Oh, that\u2019s a good question.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think only God can answer that question.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Let\u2019s see how these guys do answer that question. We\u2019ve got Dave Kinnaman and Mark Matlock joining us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Guys, welcome back.<\/p>\n<p><strong>David:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark: <\/strong>Good to be with you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> David is joining us remotely; he\u2019s at his office in Southern California. Mark is here in studio with us. Together, they\u2019ve worked on a book called <em>Faith for Exiles: 5 Ways for a New Generation to Follow Jesus in Digital Babylon.<\/em> We\u2019ve talked this week what we mean about that: we live in a culture where it\u2019s more like Babylon than Jerusalem. It\u2019s more like living in exile, more like being away from the place of God than being in the center of it.<\/p>\n<p>David gives leadership to the Barna Group and all of the great research that the Barna Group has done. Mark is a pastor\/was a youth volunteer for years. He\u2019s a churchman and a researcher.<\/p>\n<p>Part of your research here was to look at Generation Z and Millennials and kind of take their spiritual temperature. You said there are\u2014is it right?\u2014four tribes, basically, that you identified in that group?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> Yes; there are four groups that we found in that time. Your original question: \u201cCan we bring it back?\u201d\u2014I don\u2019t know that we need to worry about \u201cgetting things back\u201d; that\u2019s a lot of energy to spend. I think the question is: \u201cHow do you we live and be a faithful presence in the context we\u2019re in?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark: <\/strong>And I think that this\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I wanted to say. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark: <\/strong>And this is\u2014[Laughter]\u2014is that it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> I think that these four segments show some of that. We looked at the faith practices of 18-29-year-olds. We basically broke them into four categories, based on what we saw. The people that we surveyed in this research project: we were looking at people who had said, \u201cI presently, or at some time in my life, identified as a Christian.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> These are kids, who grew up going to church\u2014they probably went to youth camp\/probably were involved in youth group\u2014at some point, they prayed a prayer or felt like they were part of the church community.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark: <\/strong>Correct. Just to be clear, that\u2019s about 83 percent of that population. That\u2019s often surprising to people. Just to give you an idea\u2014some people go, \u201cWell, you\u2019re only talking to 10 percent of the 18-29-year-olds,\u201d\u2014no; 83 percent were\u2014that was our sample pool that we could draw from.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Are you saying any religious instruction? So Jewish kids, who grew up going to Hebrew school, be included in this?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> If they identified as a Christian.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Identified as a Christian; okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> They identified as a Christian at some time in their life; yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Alright.<\/p>\n<p><strong>David:<\/strong> It\u2019s one of the biggest surprises of my career, in working with Barna for so long\u201425 years\u2014is the sheer volume of the people who say they\u2019re Christian in America. More than eight out of ten say they\u2019re Christian; more than seven out of ten say they\u2019ve made a commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their life.<\/p>\n<p>Growing up as a pastor\u2019s kid, I would have thought everyone was a heathen\/everyone was a non-Christian. But when you look at the stats, we\u2019re a very Christianized nation, even to this day. We\u2019re not a very Christ-<em>following<\/em> nation.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> David, how many of those, who would say, \u201cI grew up as a Christian,\u201d are saying, \u201cI didn\u2019t grow up as Jewish, or Muslim, or atheist, or agnostic; so I\u2019m a Christian by default,\u201d as opposed to a Christian by practice. Do we know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>David:<\/strong> A majority of them; I don\u2019t have the exact percentage. But most people grow up in a, what\u2019s really a culturally-Christian home, than a devout Christian home.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> So in the 83 percent, you\u2019ve got a lot of cultural Christians mixed in with the church-going kids.<\/p>\n<p><strong>David:<\/strong> Correct.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Alright; so with that 83 percent, who have self-identified [as a Christian at some point in their life]; and then, now, they\u2019re in a place. You\u2019re asking: \u201cWhere are they?\u201d You\u2019ve said there are four different places they\u2019re landing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> The first group are what we call \u201cprodigals.\u201d These are people, who say, \u201cI identified as a Christian at some point of time in my life. I absolutely do not identify as a Christian today.\u201d That makes up about 22 percent of that population.<\/p>\n<p>What\u2019s important to note is\u2014for one of David\u2019s other books, <em>You Lost Me<\/em>, which really looked at the dropout problem in the church\u2014that number was about 11 percent just about 8 years ago. In less than a decade, that number has <em>doubled<\/em> for 18-29-year-olds, who say, \u201cThis isn\u2019t just \u2018I don\u2019t go to church anymore\u2019; this is, \u2018I do not consider myself a Christian any longer.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The next group are what we call the \u201cnomads\u201d or lapsed Christians. These are people, who say, \u201cI\u2019m a Christian still\u201d; but they\u2019re not really connected to a community of faith. So going to church\u2014they kind of don\u2019t see the church as the place they get their spiritual instruction or belonging to.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019ve heard people call themselves \u201cde-churched\u201d or pastors talk about the \u201cde-churched.\u201d Is that who these nomads are?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> Some of them could be nomads, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay; alright.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> So we kind of take it as: \u201cThey\u2019re looking for their spiritual experience outside of the community of faith.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>David:<\/strong> They\u2019re the most prolific problem, if you will, in American Christianity and American faith\u2014is people who say they\u2019re Christian, who sort of\u2014they\u2019re all onboard for all the good stuff about Christianity, but they <em>never<\/em> attend church or they very rarely. They sort of <em>love<\/em> Jesus but not the church.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> When we talk about people, who are walking away from the church, and you hear that phrase\u2014it\u2019s really these nomads and prodigals we\u2019re talking about\u2014is this group that\u2019s walking away in some way, shape, and form.<\/p>\n<p>I think another important thing to notice\/that we\u2019ve noticed about the prodigals is we\u2019re entering into an era of polite atheism, where\u2014while there\u2019s always a fraction of those prodigals that are hostile toward Christianity as they come out of it\u2014what we\u2019re seeing a lot of today is a sense of: \u201cYou know what? I really respect my mom and dad\u2019s faith. I don\u2019t want to come out yet and tell them I\u2019m not a Christian, because I\u2019m going to hurt their feelings. I\u2019m going to wait until I\u2019m maybe a little older in life to let them know that I don\u2019t follow this anymore,\u201d because they have respect.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s really important, because it used to be this was a hostile group. Now, it\u2019s a group of: \u201cEven if you convince me it\u2019s true, I still probably wouldn\u2019t buy into it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Wow; so of the 18-29-year-olds, are most of them nomads and prodigals? Or do they fit into the other two categories that we haven\u2019t talked about yet?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> The two that we\u2019re looking at right now are the \u201chabituals\u201d and the \u201cresilients.\u201d The habituals and the resilients are those that are still attending church, and they\u2019re attending it with a pretty good frequency. The habitual churchgoers make about<\/p>\n<p>38 percent of those 18-29-year-olds.<\/p>\n<p><strong>David:<\/strong> Habitual churchgoers are simply that\u2014they are self-identified Christians, 18-29. They attend church, at least, on a monthly basis. They have a pretty good connection to their faith.<\/p>\n<p>That was a really interesting comparison to this fourth group that we\u2019re talking about\u2014which are these resilient disciples\u2014that that represented just 10 percent: one in ten 18-29-year-old young people, who grew up [and] experienced Christianity in some fashion.<\/p>\n<p>The only difference, really, between the habitual churchgoers and these resilient disciples\u2014there\u2019s a couple things that are actually pretty important\u2014but they believe in the authority of Scripture. Many habitual churchgoers believe that, but it wasn\u2019t necessarily true of all of them. They believe in the death and the resurrection of Jesus; again, most habituals believe that, but not necessarily. And then they believe that they want their faith to be expressed out in the world in a meaningful and positive way\u2014that Jesus is alive outside the walls of the church.<\/p>\n<p>What\u2019s interesting is the habitual churchgoers\u2014which represent 38 percent, the largest group of 18-29-year-olds\u2014and resilient samples, there\u2019s actually not a lot of differences in terms of their engagement in the church. This is what we\u2019ve been saying, all along together, is that: \u201cIf you\u2019re just looking at whether your young person is attending church; attending youth group; or, as a young adult, is attending church\u2014that may or may not be enough of an indicator about how <em>deep<\/em> their faith is.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s one of the clearest things we saw in this research\u2014is that just being engaged in a church isn\u2019t enough to combat the effects of this screen-discipleship era\u2014it\u2019s not a deep enough faith for it to last in our current context.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> I want to go back to those three things, because I think this is important for moms and dads to hear.<\/p>\n<p>Authority of Scripture: the difference between a resilient Christian and a habitual Christian is\u2014the resilient Christian: that\u2019s bedrock for them. For a habitual Christian, the Bible is important; but they\u2019re hearing stuff in the culture that\u2019s causing them to question whether they can still believe the Bible; right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> That\u2019s exactly right, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Then, the resurrection of Christ\u2014that\u2019s the second thing\u2014\u201cDo you really believe that Jesus died and came back to life from death?\u201d The habitual Christian is going, \u201cI\u2019ve heard that all my life. I suppose that\u2019s true; but when it comes right down to it, I\u2019m not sure I believe that.\u201d Is that accurate?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> Yes, exactly. It\u2019s almost as though we see this really interesting thing among young people, which is they can believe one thing logically, and then sort of reject it in another fashion. They may believe that the resurrection is sort of true, kind of like a legend or a myth; and it probably has bearing on our faith. But they don\u2019t necessarily believe it was <em>physically<\/em> true, right? It\u2019s almost like it was an old wives\u2019 tale that Jesus must have risen from the dead. \u201cBesides, it doesn\u2019t really matter that much,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s the voice of these young habitual churchgoers, or prodigals, or nomads\u2014whereas, these resilient disciples are <em>convinced<\/em> of the death and resurrection of Jesus in a much more tangible way in their life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> It really is interesting\u2014you used the words, \u201cchurchgoer\u201d and \u201cdisciple.\u201d That\u2019s, I\u2019m guessing, a word that really defined these two differences. There are habitual churchgoers, but a disciple is what Bob was getting at\u2014there\u2019s a <em>big<\/em> difference. Even though it sounds subtle, it\u2019s <em>huge<\/em>; isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark: <\/strong>Yes; and I want to be really clear, too\u2014while we use certain criteria to distinguish them\u2014when we went deeper into the research, and we asked them all these profiling questions: about how they grew up, what their experience of Jesus was, what their prayer life was like\u2014we saw a <em>dramatic<\/em> difference between these habituals and these resilients. There\u2019s more going on there. They\u2019re going to church with about the same frequency; but they\u2019re having really different experiences with God, with Christ, with the Holy Spirit, with others in the church.<\/p>\n<p>We talked about the screen intake of digital Babylon. Just to give you an idea of the difference\u2014resilient disciples take in about 600 hours of spiritual content on their screens. Compare that to habituals\u2014they\u2019re almost half that\u2014just a little under 300 hours. There is a real difference in practice\u2014this isn\u2019t just a couple of doctrinal issues; those things helped us filter out that group\u2014but their experiences are really different, and their practices are really different.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Authority of Scripture, resurrection of Christ\u2014I don\u2019t want to miss that third thing\u2014in fact, I want to come back to this. You said that, for these people, living out their faith in a cultural context is very important to them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> It\u2019s central to their life, and they believe they live in the world to make a difference in the world.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m thinking of the young people I know, who are recognizing there is a <em>huge<\/em> relational and social cost to that decision to live out your faith. They\u2019re going, \u201cI don\u2019t know that I\u2019m ready to pay that price to be an active Christian; because the headwinds against that, in terms of my employment, in terms of who my friend group is, in terms of whether I\u2019m accepted or I\u2019m ghosted on social media.\u201d All of this is\/are the ramifications. If you say, \u201cI\u2019m going to live and make Jesus central to what I\u2019m doing,\u201d there are some people, who are going to leave you, and there other people, who are going to mock you as a result of that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> Yes; and that\u2019s such an inspiring vision that I think so few young adults have about what it means to live a countercultural life in Christ\/a vibrant life in Christ that actually goes against the flow in our culture. That sounds like someone in Scripture\/to me, it sounds like Daniel, who was recognized, who had these private practices of belief, of prayer, of devotion to Scripture. We can actually see, in Daniel, Chapter 9, where it says he\u2019s reading the Prophet Jeremiah. He\u2019s actually reading, doing devotions with Scripture. Based on that, he has this inner life that allows him to have an outward impact.<\/p>\n<p>Every young person, who\u2019s in this resilient disciple group that we interviewed, they don\u2019t want their faith to matter just on Sunday mornings. They want their faith to matter on all of life. They want their faith to matter on every vocation, not just in Christian ministry, but in all of the careers they\u2019re interested in. That\u2019s the kind of Christianity that we want our kids and grandkids to aspire to. It\u2019s, in fact, the kind of Christianity that is real and in the real world.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s what\u2019s pretty cool about interviewing these resilient disciples. As I said, this is such a hopeful project; because we learn the kinds of things these young people get inspired by and how much of a difference their faith makes in their lives.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m curious\u2014as you\u2019ve talked to these resilient disciples, is there a correlation between them and a parent that is a resilient disciple? You know, are they watching their parents, who are on fire for Jesus? Do you see more kids that are following Christ because they\u2019ve been watching their parents? Or is there any correlation?<\/p>\n<p><strong>David: <\/strong>There\u2019s a huge correlation between what a parent does and the faith of their kids. In this current context, because screens disciple, there\u2019s also never been a time when that correlation breaks down as much as it does today. So just because you\u2019re a good Christian parent\u2014it might have taken you a long way in the past\u2014it doesn\u2019t carry the same water that it did before.<\/p>\n<p>I think we should realize that the culture is so hard\/it is so faith-depleting, that even if you do all the right things, it may or may not work. So what do we do? We pray; we work hard; we continue to believe the best about this generation. We try not to control our kids; because ultimately, God is the One who is in charge\u2014but recognizing that parenting is a lot; but it\u2019s not sufficient, alone today, to raise kids in this current cultural moment.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> One of the things I found in doing these small groups with teenagers was how little they had a place to doubt or question on their spiritual journey. Some parents are so intense in their faith that they don\u2019t give kids the space to be able to ask the questions or to take some of the risks. We think: \u201cIf my kid doubts this,\u201d or \u201cIf they question this,\u201d\u2014that, somehow, they\u2019re weak; or \u201cSomehow, I\u2019ve done something wrong,\u201d rather than the fact that that\u2019s actually part of what produces resilience. It\u2019s in that doubt that they\u2019re able to actually lean into their faith even more and become strong.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> The scary thing is\u2014isn\u2019t it true?\u2014that if they can\u2019t express those doubts in their home, <em>and<\/em> they can\u2019t express them at church, where do they go?\u2014they go into a digital chat room, and they express them, and they get bad answers that they concur with.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; they go to Google<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, and type in their question, and see what kind of responses they get.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m wondering how many parents, who started as resilient parents, kind of lapsed into habitual Christian parents; so what their kids see, as they\u2019re growing up, is less resilience and more habit\u2014and thy pick <em>that<\/em> up. I think this is where we\u2019ve got to ask ourselves a question, as parents: \u201cDo our kids see a vital, daily, vibrant faith in us that\u2019s not just, \u2018Yes, we go to church; because that\u2019s who we are,\u2019\u2014but\u2014\u2018No, we go to church because we find <em>life<\/em> there; we read our Bibles during the week; we actually spend time praying together. This is important to us, not just something that\u2019s on our punch list that we do every week.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>David:<\/strong> I want to take it even a step further. When my kids were born, I started interviewing moms and dads, who I\u2019d seen hand their faith off to their adult children. I started asking lots of questions. What I did notice in their story was that their family was actually making disciples; they were light in dark places. What the kids were seeing was a demonstration of the power of God in front of them.<\/p>\n<p>They also were very vulnerable. One of the things that\u2019s interesting\u2014I get asked by parents a lot\u2014\u201cShould I tell my kids about my past?\u201d \u201cShould I tell my kids about\u2026?\u201d I always say, \u201cTo <em>not<\/em> do that would deny the power and the glory of God\u2019s work to your kids. They\u2019re seeing you, maybe with ten years of Christ, or more, working in you. They\u2019re dealing with their sin in the same way that you passed it on to them, which before you, is maybe earlier. They need to see the faithfulness of God in your life, not the end result. They need to see that process of grace working itself out.\u201d That\u2019s one of the things we saw happen in a lot of these homes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019re always concerned, as parents, that if we say too much we\u2019re going to somehow signal to our kids, \u201cIt\u2019s okay for you to live a profligate life as a teenager, because it will turn out in the end.\u201d What I hear you saying is\u2014we can go into that, with brokenness and weeping over the scars that were left in our life, and say, \u201cBut God redeemed me from that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> Show them the power of God.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Exactly; yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I shared Sunday in my sermon, which was about money. When my oldest son was probably 12 or 13, he walked into my office; and I\u2019m writing a check for my giving to God. Remember what a check was?\u2014you know those things? [Laughter] He looked over my shoulder, and he said\u2014his name is CJ\u2014he\u2019s like, \u201cDad, why would you give that?\u201d I know what he\u2019s thinking: \u201cI\u2019m not getting toys,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m not getting a vacation, because that\u2019s where all our money\u2019s\u2026\u201d He had no idea.<\/p>\n<p>Here\u2019s what hit me\u2014Exodus 13: \u201cHere\u2019s what you tell your son when he asks you, \u201cWhy?\u201d Remind him we were once slaves, but God\u2019s mighty hand\u2026.\u201d I turned to CJ right then. I said, \u201cYou don\u2019t know, but Dad used to be a bad man. I used to be in bondage to the same things your grandpa was in bondage to: alcohol, women, money. But God\u2019s mighty hand has saved us. Everything you have experienced in this life, CJ, God did that; so it\u2019s a <em>joy<\/em> to say, \u2018Thank you,\u2019 to Him.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mark:<\/strong> Giving is something really important that we do in private, but our kids don\u2019t see it. That\u2019s one of those <em>demonstrations<\/em> of the power of God.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> We want to talk about what we can do, as parents, to help tilt the odds in our favor so that our kids wind up as resilient, not as habituals, and certainly not as prodigals or nomads; right? Your book is so helpful. In fact, I\u2019m going to be passing this out to parents of teens I know.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s available for any of our listeners who would like to get a copy. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order your copy of the book online. Our website, again, is FamilyLifeToday.com. The book is called <em>Faith for Exiles<\/em> by David Kinnaman and Mark Matlock. You can also order by calling 1-800-FL-TODAY\u20141-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>At FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, our mission is to effectively develop godly marriages and families. We\u2019re focused really on four things here: your walk with God, your commitment to your marriage covenant, living out your responsibilities in marriage as husbands and as wives, and then passing on a legacy of faith to the next generation. Those are our marching orders; that\u2019s what we\u2019re all about, here, at FamilyLife.<\/p>\n<p>When it comes to your marriage, we know a lot of couples have been experiencing stress and strain in their marriage because we\u2019ve all been living through a time of disorientation, and stress, and strain in our world these days. FamilyLife has resources to help you there. We\u2019ve got the \u201cGood to Great\u201d marriage resource that\u2019s available for free online. There are video courses, audio messages, a downloadable e-book\u2014things you can go through\/listen to together that will help rebuild a fractured foundation or help strengthen your existing foundation. It\u2019s all free.<\/p>\n<p>When you sign up for the \u201cTake Your Marriage from Good to Great\u201d resource, you are automatically eligible to win a trip to FamilyLife, where you can sit in on a recording session for <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> and then have dinner with Dave and Ann Wilson. Somebody\u2019s going to win that. There\u2019s no purchase necessary; the contest ends<\/p>\n<p>August 14<sup>th<\/sup>. There are restrictions that apply. You can find the official rules, online, at FamilyLife.com\/good-contest. Check all of that out, and then enter regularly and get access to this \u201cTake Your Marriage from Good to Great\u201d resource.<\/p>\n<p>In addition, we\u2019d love for everybody, who\u2019s a <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listener, to have a copy of my new book, <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em>. The book is all about the Bible\u2019s definition of love, and how that differs from the cultural definition of love, and how a marriage is actually strengthened and enriched when we pursue the right kind of love in marriage. That book is our gift to you this month when you donate to support this ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Your donation makes <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>possible for hundreds of thousands of people, who are connecting with us every day on radio, via podcast, on our website, through the resources we create. You make that possible every time you support this ministry. Again, we\u2019d love to send you the book, <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em>, as a thank-you gift when you donate today. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to make an online donation, or call 1-800-FLTODAY to support the ongoing work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We appreciate you.<\/p>\n<p>We hope you can be back with us again tomorrow when we\u2019ll talk more about how we build resilience in the lives of children, our teenagers, and young adults; so they\u2019ve got a faith that endures. Mark Matlock and David Kinnaman will join us tomorrow. I hope you can join us as well.<\/p>\n<p>I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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