{"id":307226,"date":"2021-09-09T07:00:05","date_gmt":"2021-09-09T11:00:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/marriage-split-survive-or-save\/"},"modified":"2021-09-09T07:00:05","modified_gmt":"2021-09-09T11:00:05","slug":"marriage-split-survive-or-save","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/marriage-split-survive-or-save\/","title":{"rendered":"Marriage: Split, Survive, or Save?"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Are you wondering what to do about a crossroads in your marriage? Carey and Toni Nieuwhof talk through the options, providing direction and hope.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-09-09.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:34:51","filesize":"31.9M","filesize_raw":"33452455","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2809],"tags":[4033,2877],"podcast_series":[8472],"cwp_profile":[9733],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307226","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-commitment","tag-divorce","tag-marriage","podcast_series-before-you-split","cwp_profile-carey-and-toni-nieuwhof","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307226\/marriage-split-survive-or-save","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307226\/marriage-split-survive-or-save","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"2D7MDwVxpT\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/marriage-split-survive-or-save\/\">Marriage: Split, Survive, or Save?<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/marriage-split-survive-or-save\/embed\/#?secret=2D7MDwVxpT\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Marriage: Split, Survive, or Save?&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"2D7MDwVxpT\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Are you wondering what to do about a crossroads in your marriage? Carey and Toni Nieuwhof talk through the options, providing direction and hope.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-09-09.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> I think the part about splitting is\u2014you know, you are having all these struggles with your relationship\u2014and it\u2019s like you can pack the relationship up in a box, and put it out to the roadway, and someone will whisk it away: \u201cThere; the problem is done.\u201d When the day of separation comes, you actually get another box. In that box, you have the financial problems, and the property division, and the parenting schedule, and making parenting decisions. Then, layered underneath that, are all of the relationship problems that you thought that you were putting out to the roadside. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I will never forget the day of driving with my dad to a band rehearsal for our church. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; describe a little bit about your dad, like, \u201cWhere was he in your life?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m in my 40\u2019s, probably, at this time. We had started our church five or ten years previously. My dad and I were not close; he left when I was six for a girlfriend, actually. He ended up being remarried, but now was sort of back in my life. It was sort of fun, because he was a drummer; he paid his way through college playing the drums. I\u2019m a guitar player. Going to this rehearsal, I\u2019m thinking, \u201cThis is a cool moment. He is going to watch his son in rehearsal.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOut of nowhere, I get this thought\u2014I\u2019ll never forget it\u2014I look over; and I go, \u201cHey, Dad, did you regret the divorce?\u201d I had never talked to him about this, so it was sort of a scary moment for me to bring this up. I don\u2019t know why\u2014out of nowhere\u2014I had this thought, \u201cHey, Dad, do you regret the divorce?\u201d\u2014thinking, \u201cI don\u2019t know if he will answer this.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBefore I am done with the question, he responds, \u201c_____, yes!\u201d I remember going, \u201cWhy?\u201d He goes: \u201cBecause I missed you; I missed your whole life,\u201d and \u201cIt was one of the most regrettable decisions of my life.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014which was so healing for you, because you really had <em>no<\/em> relationship. You kind of assumed, like\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014he didn\u2019t really care about you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I did not expect that answer. But as I bring that up now, I\u2019m thinking, \u201cEvery marriage, especially in a situation like that, comes to a fork in the road, where you are going to make a decision about when it gets hard: \u2018Are we going to fight for it?\u2019 or \u2018Are we going to end it?\u2019\u201d Obviously, my dad ended it; and then <em>regretted<\/em> it years later. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI tell you what\u2014we do not want that for you\u2014we don\u2019t want that for <em>any<\/em> family. Obviously, that is our mission, here, at FamilyLife: we want to help marriages\/families. We want to build godly legacies. One of the tools God has given FamilyLife, that has been around for generations, is what we call the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> getaway, where couples come\u2014pre-married couples, married couples, couples who have been married <em>decades<\/em>\u2014come to a hotel\/to a getaway and take, from Friday night through Sunday morning, a look at their\u2014you put energy into your marriage and really leave the weekend with God\u2019s game plan for your marriage\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014to make it <em>work<\/em> so that you don\u2019t end it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Guys, this is so big\u2014because it really did\u2014I feel like it really changed our marriage. It gave us God\u2019s blueprint of why He wants us to be married, and it will help you thrive; it will help you avoid pitfalls. You\u2019ll experience God\u2019s good plan for marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I wish my mom and dad would have gone to one; it might have saved their marriage. But we want to save <em>your<\/em> marriage, so this is a decision that can literally change your legacy. Here\u2019s how you can sign up\u2014and if you sign up right now\u2014it\u2019s half price. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Did you hear that?!\u2014half price! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know about you, but I\u2019m a guy that is all about half-price deals. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Are you cheap? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; go to FamilyLifeToday.com, and you can sign up for any <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> getaway in any city. I\u2019m telling you: it\u2019s going to change your life; because this is a decision that is critical, not just for your marriage, but for your legacy as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe get to talk about that today with Toni and Carey Nieuwhof. She knows well, because she is a divorce attorney\u2014in your former life; right?\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014where you sat with couples, sort of who were wrestling with that very issue. You wrote a book called <em>Before You Split<\/em>. I can\u2019t wait to hear your perspective, because you\u2019re in a marriage to Carey; but you\u2019ve also sat and watched couples wrestle with the same kind of questions my mom and dad had to wrestle with. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; so Carey and Toni, thanks for being with us\/back, again, on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> It\u2019s great. So glad to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> Such an honor. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Toni, I didn\u2019t know as much about you until we got your book, <em>Before You Split<\/em>. It\u2019s\u2014I mean, we\u2019ve had a great conversation, talking about your marriage almost ending, struggles, bringing baggage\u2014as you call it, \u201cmud\u201d\u2014into your marriage and working through that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tToday, I want to talk about something you wrote in your book. It\u2019s really about that fork in the road, when a couple is struggling. We\u2019ve talked about your struggle\/our struggle. There is a decision. You call it: \u201cYou either have a choice to either split,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201csurvive, or save.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Let\u2019s talk about those three options. Pick either one you want to start with; but as a couple wrestles with that, how do they negotiate what to do in that fork in the road? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> Splitting, I think, is obvious to people; because we all know someone or maybe we\u2019ve even gone through a separation ourselves. I think the part about splitting\u2014for people, who haven\u2019t gone through it before themselves\/that isn\u2019t familiar\u2014is you\u2019re having all these struggles with your relationship. It\u2019s like you can pack the relationship up in a box, and put it out to the roadway, and someone will whisk it away: \u201cThere; the problem is done.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe issue, though\u2014if you have kids, in particular\u2014is that when the day of separation comes, you actually get another box. In that box, you have the financial problems, and the property division, and the parenting schedule, and making parenting decisions; and then, layered underneath that, are all the problems you thought you were putting out to the roadside. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSplitting is often a source of disappointment and disillusionment, I found, for the clients I worked with. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> Yes; if I could just jump in, there is one story you tell that haunts me every time. It was a particular client\u2014I\u2019m sure you have heard it more than once, who came in your office\u2014and it was dad. He was in the middle of a messy divorce; and everybody gets poorer, and everything gets complicated. You think you\u2019re going to get access to the kids, and it doesn\u2019t work out. One of the things he said\u2014you write about this in the book is\u2014\u201cIf I had known how complicated this would be, I would have worked harder on my marriage.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou saw that, time and time again; because people go, \u201cThis is hard\u201d; but they don\u2019t realize that divorce is <em>harder<\/em>. I think that has been a really powerful motivator for me and made me really grateful we didn\u2019t choose that option; but I think, for any couple that is on the bubble now: \u201cYes, this is hard; but divorce can be <em>harder<\/em>.\u201d It really can be. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You sort of think it\u2019s a <em>solution<\/em> to a problem, and it\u2019s really an <em>exchange<\/em> of problems; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> Yes; that\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> way to think about it, Dave. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> I do want to just inject a side note here that there are some families I worked with, where they needed to separate to allow healing to happen\u2014in cases where there are safety risks, where there is violence, or a substance problem that is out of control\u2014I\u2019m sure you\u2019ve come across those cases too, Dave, where it needs to happen so that people can heal. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good point; unsafe is totally different than unhappy. I\u2019m talking about unhappy marriages\u2014not unsafe marriages\u2014but yes, you are totally right. An unhappy marriage\u2014like ours was unhappy\u2014it wasn\u2019t really unsafe. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t harmful. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> Now, I am like so grateful; because the joy exceeds, at this point, the pain that we had to go through. That is just a little sprig of hope for those of you who find yourselves in an unhappy place rather than an unsafe place. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat is \u201csplit\u201d; then there is \u201csave\u201d and \u201csurvive.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> Surviving is staying together in your relationship, with your emotions disconnected. This is also a common place for couples to end up. I know, as newlyweds, you think, \u201cNo, that will never happen to <em>us<\/em>\u201d; but I\u2019ve done surveys of church groups, before I\u2019ve done marriage talks; and the issue that keeps rising to the top is feeling disconnected or lack of intimacy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> \u2014so like roommates. You\u2019re roommates; you\u2019re still together.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> Yes; feeling like you\u2019re roommates\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey: <\/strong>\u2014business partners.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni: <\/strong>\u2014or feeling like you\u2019re in a family business contract. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> At the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway, we call it emotional isolation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> Yes; for anyone, who is listening right now, who maybe sees themselves in that position in their marriage, first thing I want to say is: \u201cDon\u2019t panic. It doesn\u2019t mean that your marriage is over.\u201d I think that\u2019s what I\u2019ve seen, especially in my client practice, is people say: \u201cWell, the love is gone; so it\u2019s over,\u201d \u201cOnce the love is gone, what is there left?\u201d That\u2019s just not the way it has to be. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe had reached the point, where I wondered whether it was even possible for me to be in love with Carey again. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> I know that sounds ridiculous, but it actually did happen. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> No; and I can absolutely say now, it would have been\/I would have missed out on so much if I had followed those feelings out the door. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> There are ways that you can rebuild your connection, even if you feel like it\u2019s broken right now. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then beyond \u201csurviving\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey: <\/strong>\u2014third option.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni: <\/strong>\u2014is the option of \u201csaving.\u201d Saving your marriage is reaching the place, where you feel like you\u2019re in sync, like you have each other\u2019s backs; you\u2019re deeply satisfied, and you do have that connection. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYes; all I want to say about saving your marriage is that it is possible. It is <em>so<\/em> possible to go from surviving to saving\u2014and surviving in your marriage, for a temporary period, while you work on rebuilding your connection and seeing what you can do to rekindle the love that you, obviously, did share at one point in time is\u2014yes, in my opinion, absolutely possible. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I love the research you cite in your book from Linda Waite. With a team\/they studied 645 unhappily-married spouses, and they studied them at the beginning and five years later\u2014am I getting this right?\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014and just said, \u201cCouples that got divorced compared to couples that <em>fought<\/em> for their marriage\u201450 percent of the ones that fought for it said, \u201cWe are happier now than we ever were and never thought we would be this happy.\u201d Only 19 percent of the divorced couples said, \u201cWe\u2019re happier.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean, you read something like that, and you\u2019re like, \u201cWow; it really is worth <em>fighting<\/em> for.\u201d It\u2019s going to be hard; it\u2019s going to be costly\u2014it might take everything I\u2019ve got\u2014but it\u2019s worth it. You can actually get to\u2014you guys are a living example\u2014you are in a place that is <em>better<\/em> than you were. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> Yes, we would be in that category. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, we would too! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> Yes; and it\u2019s cheaper than divorce. Like a good counselor is cheaper than a good divorce lawyer or a divorce; it\u2019s going to be expensive. Listen, as a pastor, when I sat in that seat for 20 years, I\u2019d talk to couples, who had problems. The number-one thing they would say: \u201cWe don\u2019t have money for a counselor,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> Really? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> \u2014or \u201cWe don\u2019t have money for a date night.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cGuys, this is an <em>investment<\/em>, like an investment actually has a return. The return that we have\u2014I\u2019m not talking about money\u2014but just in terms of joy, and happiness, and actual friendship.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things about this coronavirus pandemic we\u2019ve been through is\u2014my goodness\u2014you better like the person you are in lockdown with. We have three meals a day\u2014I\u2019m not on the road anymore\u2014and we never run out of things to talk about. We\u2019re not that couple, sitting at a restaurant, who has three words for each other over the dinner. We developed that best friend; we have some habits that we\u2019ve implemented and strategies that have helped us with that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, you have some tips that I thought were really good. The number-one tip was: \u201cAvoid the blame-and-shame game.\u201d That\u2019s a good tip; talk about that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> The blame and shame\u2014I can\u2019t even think of a couple that I worked with\u2014where blame wasn\u2019t a part of what was going on. I have to say that between Carey and I\u2014absolutely, we were stuck in that trap of blame\u2014and it sounds like: \u201cIt\u2019s all <em>her<\/em> fault,\u201d\/\u201cIt\u2019s all <em>his<\/em> fault.\u201d Even for people, who say, \u201cWell, I know I\u2019m not perfect; I have some weaknesses,\u201d\u2014they still have the underlying belief that\u2014\u201cWell, 95 percent of the blame rests with my spouse. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> \u201cMaybe, 5 percent of it is mine,\u201d\u2014having that\/I call it a victim-story mentality\u2014so not a victim in the sense of unsafe, or violence, or anything\u2014but just that victim narrative that puts me in the posture of being helpless. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI like to describe it as putting on a pair of glasses that are wrong for you. That victim story narrative becomes a lens that you look into your relationship through, and it causes this blurriness that prevents you from seeing the nuances; and the details; and most importantly, your own role,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> \u2014like what it is that you are contributing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe effort to ditch those victim-story glasses is so, so important\u2014just to take a posture of becoming\u2014making it your pursuit to become more self-aware, and even to open yourself up before God, and ask for \u201cthe light of Christ to illuminate whatever it is that I\u2019m bringing to this mess that we\u2019re in right now.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, here is a question for you: \u201cIf I want to save our marriage, and my spouse <em>isn\u2019t<\/em> interested, what do you do?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> I like the answer that I believe Dr. Gary Chapman gave to this kind of question, where he said, \u201cWhat is it that you can do for a defined period of time that is different from what you\u2019ve done in the past?\u201d I think, sometimes, a spouse checks out: because it has just been too painful; and maybe, there are unresolved grievances; and there is just a real heaviness in the relationship that is shutting them down. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut if there was something that changed that dynamic; for example, I just want to tell this story about what happened with us when we were starting to get out of the really tough years of our marriage. One day, Carey and I were having this argument\u2014I remember it clearly\u2014and he stopped in the middle of it. He came over; and he looked at me in my eyes and said, \u201cThat\u2019s it! You deserve someone who cherishes you. From now on, I\u2019m committing to be that one who cherishes you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> It was a game-stopper at the time; because it was completely different from how our arguments had been going down in that vicious cycle of conflict, where typically, Carey would pursue me and try to resolve the problem; and I would withdraw. We would end up in tears\u2014and he did\u2014but this was completely different. It was, more importantly, I think it was a different posture that Carey was really committing himself to. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> It did start to change the trajectory of our relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> I don\u2019t even know what we were arguing about. But I remember thinking\u2014because I had talked to a couple of friends\u2014I remember talking to my mom and dad once about: \u201cToni and I are not getting along.\u201d We\u2019re not airing-our-dirty-laundry-in-public-while-it\u2019s-going on kind of people; but you know, you have that inner circle. I was getting feedback from a few people\u2014my mom included\u2014who was like, \u201cToni is really an <em>awesome<\/em> person; <em>you<\/em> are not seeing things correctly.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> And I had a couple of friends give me that kind of feedback too. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe\u2019s [Toni] at me\u2014whatever you were <em>at<\/em> me about that day\u2014and I was <em>at<\/em> you, whatever it was\u2014but I thought about it <em>objectively<\/em>: \u201cDo you know how many men would love to be married to this woman?\u201d Then I thought, \u201cJust be that guy.\u201d I couldn\u2019t emotionally, in that moment, be that guy; but I could go over to her and say, \u201cHey, I\u2019m sorry. You actually deserve\u2026\u201d\u2014because Toni is a good person. She\u2019s got faults\u2014one or two just very small little blemishes\u2014[Laughter]\u2014but I\u2019m head-over-heels in love with her today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt like that time, I\u2019m just like, \u201cYou deserve somebody who cherishes you.\u201d Then I thought to myself, \u201cI hope I can be that guy.\u201d I think, most days, I am now, which is great. The feelings come back; your emotions catch up to your obedience. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you are saying, \u201cBut the spark is gone,\u201d\u2014which you hear a thousand times\u2014that\u2019s your number-one complaint. We thought, when you started serving couples, it\u2019d be like: \u201cWe\u2019re fighting about money,\u201d \u201c\u2026sex,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cparenting.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> \u2014\u201c\u2026parenting.\u201d It\u2019s like: \u201cNo, we just don\u2019t\/I don\u2019t feel anything for him anymore.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> It\u2019s like: \u201cListen, your emotions catch up to your obedience.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI knew the obedient thing to do would be to deal with my own junk: try to love my wife as Christ loved the church, and try to be that guy who cherished her. It didn\u2019t take 15 years; but here we are, 15 years later\u2014yes, we are having a good time\/a <em>great<\/em> time\u2014to the point, where we do actually say to each other: \u201cIf gets a whole lot better on the other side of heaven, I don\u2019t know what that would be; because this is pretty amazing.\u201d That\u2019s\u2014we still have our moments\u2014but they are moments. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>Intimacy is shared experience: \u201cI will contribute to the solution side,\u201d\u2014find things you love to do together\u2014when you were dating, there was stuff you did: you went to movies together; you hung out with friends together; you built a campfire together in the backyard; you went hiking in the mountains\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014whatever you did. You enjoyed it. <br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have found, since our kids left home\u2014and they are both independent\u2014we have a <em>huge<\/em> amount of time together. Rather than building separate lives\u2014Toni does have a few friends; I have a few friends\u2014but rather than building separate lives, we just found a whole bunch of stuff we enjoy doing together\/shared experiences. That is what intimacy is: \u201cWhat are some hobbies?\u201d \u201cWhat are some fun things you can do together?\u201d We hike; we cycle together; we are boaters. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tToni, for our 30<sup>th<\/sup> anniversary, Toni wanted to canoe. It was one of those: \u201cHow expensive is that thing? Ah; you want a nice one; okay, great.\u201d Then I\u2019m like, \u201cNow, I\u2019m going to have to go canoeing.\u201d I think I said to you, \u201cThis is something\u2014I\u2019m getting this for you\u2014I\u2019m happy to pay for it. This is something you do with your friends.\u201d [Laughter] Then, one day, I\u2019m like, \u201cOkay, I\u2019ll go out canoeing with you.\u201d You know what?\u2014I like it! I don\u2019t even know why I like it, but I really enjoy it. Now, that\u2019s one more thing we can add to a life-giving activity that we really enjoy together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>Your life is full of those experiences together with your kids\/with your friends. There is a deep and authentic friendship that you just can\u2019t replicate\u2014I mean, we\u2019ve got three decades-plus into this one\u2014you can\u2019t manufacture that overnight with someone else. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019re more in love now than you were 20 years ago; and nobody thinks that\u2019s possible, and it is. It\u2019s literally: \u201cGod can do that.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThank you, guys, for being so honest, and leading all of us on a journey to a place, where God wants us to be. It\u2019s been incredible. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, thanks for being with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> It has been incredible. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> Yes, thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Carey:<\/strong> Thank you, Ann; thank you, Dave. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I think, maybe, the key word in what Dave and Ann Wilson have been talking with Carey and Toni Nieuwhof about today is the word, \u201cintentional\u201d; the word that they just used. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMost of us get to a season in our marriage\u2014where we put our relationship on the back burner\u2014it\u2019s on autopilot; it\u2019s supposed to just hum along fine in the background, without any attention, or maintenance, or care. Just like everything else in your house, there is going to come a day when that thing that you\u2019ve had on autopilot is going to break down. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have to take care of our marriage: we have to invest, and we have to be intentional. That\u2019s one of the reasons why there are couples I know who, every year, make it a point to attend a FamilyLife <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway. It\u2019s marriage maintenance; it is their two-and-a-half day escape, where they can focus on their relationship and one another, and get some of the dust and cobwebs out of the relationship, and freshen things up a bit. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mention that because we are about to launch the fall season of getaways. We\u2019ve got about 30 events happening in cities all across the country this fall. Right now, if you register to attend an upcoming getaway, you\u2019ll save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. That offer is good through Monday. There is no better time than today for you to go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014find out more about the getaway; find out when it is coming to a city near where you live; and register online\u2014or call to register: 1-800-FL-TODAY is the number; that\u2019s 1-800-358-6329. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTake advantage of the savings, and then get away this fall for two-and-a-half days, and focus on your marriage at a FamilyLife <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway. If you have any questions, call us; or go online to FamilyLifeToday.com, and the information is available there. We hope to see you at an upcoming getaway. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd don\u2019t forget Toni\u2019s book, which is called <em>Before You Split<\/em>. Find out what you really want for the future of your marriage. For those, who are at a point, where you are thinking, \u201cMaybe, this is over; maybe, this marriage can\u2019t be saved,\u201d the book, <em>Before You Split<\/em>, is the book to read before you make that final decision. You can order it from us online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order: 1-800-FL-TODAY is our number; that\u2019s 1-800-358-6329; 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to hear about a movie that is opening in theaters this weekend\u2014the latest movie from the Kendrick brothers\u2014it\u2019s a documentary about fatherhood; it\u2019s a <em>powerful<\/em> film. Alex and Stephen Kendrick join us tomorrow to tell us all about it. We hope you can be with us for that as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. 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