{"id":307225,"date":"2021-09-08T07:00:12","date_gmt":"2021-09-08T11:00:12","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/mudslinging-and-marriage\/"},"modified":"2021-09-08T07:00:12","modified_gmt":"2021-09-08T11:00:12","slug":"mudslinging-and-marriage","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/mudslinging-and-marriage\/","title":{"rendered":"Mudslinging and Marriage"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>We all carry &#8220;mud&#8221; into our marriages. Carey and Toni Nieuwhof discuss what the &#8220;mud&#8221; really is and how to deal with it.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-09-08.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:33:25","filesize":"30.6M","filesize_raw":"32081897","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2809],"tags":[4033,2877],"podcast_series":[8472],"cwp_profile":[9733],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307225","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-commitment","tag-divorce","tag-marriage","podcast_series-before-you-split","cwp_profile-carey-and-toni-nieuwhof","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307225\/mudslinging-and-marriage","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307225\/mudslinging-and-marriage","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"1v862xdrW6\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/mudslinging-and-marriage\/\">Mudslinging and Marriage<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/mudslinging-and-marriage\/embed\/#?secret=1v862xdrW6\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Mudslinging and Marriage&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"1v862xdrW6\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"We all carry \"mud\" into our marriages. Carey and Toni Nieuwhof discuss what the \"mud\" really is and how to deal with it.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-09-08.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> Ask your spouse today: \u201cWhat would make this a good day for you?\u201d I learned to ask that question; because, naturally sinful guy, I wake up, going, \u201cWhat would make this a good day for <em>me<\/em>?\u201d I have my whole little list: \u201cDah, dah, dah.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut everybody in your house wakes up with: \u201cWhat would make this a good day for me?\u201d So I\u2019m going to put my little \u201cWhat would make this a good day for me?\u201d in few hours, and then we\u2019ll focus on how I can help Toni make sure it\u2019s a good day for her.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife\u2014 <\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong><em> \u2014Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOkay, one of the things I don\u2019t think we realized, when we got married\u2014is we\u2019re standing there before the pastor\u2014I look perfect,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You <em>did<\/em> look perfect.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014with my hair combed over\/my bang. [Laughter] Anyway, it was just this great moment. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014magical day.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> But if we could have seen, behind the veil, there were bags of luggage that were attached to us as we came into this marriage; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; we had <em>no<\/em> idea how much we were actually bringing into our marriage of past hurt, pain\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You brought a lot more baggage than I did.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I probably did, honestly. [Laughter] And you had your share, as well. But I don\u2019t think\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Actually, the truth is I brought a ton\/a U-Haul<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; I don\u2019t think any of us are aware of the impact that baggage from the past will affect our marriage in the present. Because nobody\u2019s thinking, on their wedding day: \u201cI bet this won\u2019t work,\u201d \u201cI bet we\u2019ll be miserable in a few years,\u201d \u201cI expect there\u2019s a divorce in our future.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> But also, nobody realizes, I don\u2019t think, on their wedding day how hard it\u2019s going to be.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> One of the best things we ever did\u2014we didn\u2019t even know how vital it would be at the time\u2014is, two weeks before our wedding, we went to the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, FamilyLife\u2019s <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>. It was a light bulb to say, \u201cOh, my goodness; this is going to be hard, but we have a <em>plan<\/em>.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ve got to tell you something: this is a conference you <em>can\u2019t<\/em> miss. It\u2019s called the FamilyLife <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>. We took COVID off; we couldn\u2019t meet because of social distancing. But it\u2019s back\u2014not only can you go\u2014you can go, half price, right now.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014which is amazing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; if you sign up right now, you can go half price. You can pick the getaway; you can pick the city you want to go to. Trust me, between Friday night and Sunday morning, you are going to get a <em>plan<\/em> that\u2019s going to be one of the best things you\u2019ve ever done for your marriage. This is for pre-marriage, for couples married five years, fifty years\u2014you name it\u2014it will help <em>anybody<\/em>. Here\u2019s how you do it: go to FamilyLifeToday.com and sign up for a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve got a couple with us today that I just love. Carey and Toni Nieuwhof are joining us. Toni just released the book, not too long ago, called <em>Before You Spilt<\/em>, which is interesting because\u2014well, first of all\u2014let me just say, welcome to FamilyLife, guys. Glad to have you on with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni: <\/strong>Hey, it\u2019s just so great to be with you.I\u2019m thrilled to be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey: <\/strong>Love being with you guys. Thank you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I tell you, when I saw your book, two things: one, I know Carey; so I knew a little bit of your story, but I didn\u2019t know half of it until I started reading the book. It\u2019s such a unique perspective, because you\u2019re a divorce mediator. You\u2019ve sat with couples; you know\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014Toni is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Toni, you know the consequences. You know how it goes with families, so you have that perspective; so you can bring all that into it as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019re married to a leader, a podcaster, a former pastor\u2014a guy I listen to\u2014Carey, I read your blog every single day. It\u2019s life-changing; it\u2019s powerful. I\u2019ve pointed more people to your resources and your books because they\u2019re just <em>dynamite<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s so, so good; and he really\/you really have impacted so many. Interestingly, you both have your law degrees. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> It\u2019s where we met, law school. We became friends; and a couple of months later, we started dating. From meeting to being engaged was nine months. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> From meeting to being married was 18 months; and 18 months after we were married, we had our first son. All of that happened while we were in law school, trying to graduate. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe didn\u2019t quite marry strangers, but it was close. You\u2019re right; we brought all our unresolved baggage into that relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; you called it, in the book, if I\u2019m right, you called it \u201cmud\u201d or \u201cmud stories\u201d that you bring in. Talk about that a little bit, because I\u2019m guessing you didn\u2019t realize the mud you were bringing in. What was the mud you were bringing into your marriage?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> There was plenty of it. Carey and I got together, as we said, when we were in law school. I became a Christian just shortly before that without a lot of mentoring or insight. It wasn\u2019t until several years into our marriage that I started to pick up clues that something wasn\u2019t quite right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt one point, we were on vacation with our oldest son; and I had this episode, where I just broke down and started weeping, and <em>really<\/em> didn\u2019t know why. It wasn\u2019t\/there wasn\u2019t any major factor\/provocation. It was probably about 36 hours of misery; and then I sort of pulled myself back together, and we went home. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt that point, I realized I had a choice. I could either pay attention to what happened or just completely ignore it and life goes on. But at that point, I started to pay more attention to these emotions that seemed to go beyond the circumstances. I call them overkill emotions, where maybe Carey said something that was provocative\u2014maybe at a level of a 2 or 3 out of 10\u2014but my response is a 7 or a 9. Something\u2019s going on with that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt took some introspection\u2014prayer, reading Scripture was part of this discovery process\u2014and working with a Christian counselor to realize that there were these hidden lies that were beneath the surface\u2014certainly I wasn\u2019t aware of them\u2014that were telling me things like: \u201cI\u2019m better off alone.\u201d That showed up in the ways I was acting and behaving that were very self-protective. It became obvious, over time, that I didn\u2019t trust anyone.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat wasn\u2019t the only one. I\u2019ve also come to realize that I was believing things like: \u201cMy voice doesn\u2019t matter,\u201d and \u201cI deserve to be invisible.\u201d Yes, that\u2019s what I\u2019m calling mud; but you could also call it \u201cwounds\u201d or \u201cbaggage.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I think\u2014you tell me if it\u2019s true in your marriage\u2014I found that it\u2019s really easy for me to see the mud in Ann; [Laughter] I could see all her baggage. I had a really hard time seeing mine, even when she would point it out, which is her gift to me. She said to me one day, \u201cI am God\u2019s Holy Spirit to your life.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019ve never said that. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> No; I said, \u201cI\u2019m your <em>helper<\/em>. I help the Holy Spirit,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s what I said\u2014\u201cI <em>help<\/em> the Holy Spirit.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> \u201cDoesn\u2019t feel like help to me\u201d; right? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s what he said. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>But the question would be: \u201cHow do you see your own mud?\u201d Because it\u2019s easier to see somebody else\u2019s, but to look in a mirror and identify it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> I saw Toni\u2019s like crazy. I spent a long time\u2014and I did the same thing\u2014I went to counseling; because Toni was speaking, like the Holy Spirit, and gave me an ultimatum; and basically said, \u201cYou go to counseling, or this isn\u2019t going to end well.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I was about 31\u2014I got married when I was 25\u2014when I was 31, I went to counseling. I spent the first hour of counseling complaining about Toni and just: \u201cShe does this\u2026\u201d and \u201cShe does this\u2026\u201d and \u201cShe <em>doesn\u2019t<\/em> do this\u2026\u201d and \u201cI\u2019m <em>so<\/em> frustrated; can you <em>please<\/em> validate me and correct her?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy counselor\u2014his name was Jim\u2014he just said to me, \u201cWell, Carey, now that we\u2019re done talking about Toni, can we talk about <em>you<\/em>?\u201d That\u2019s when I began to realize and start to unpack that, somewhere along the line, when I was a kid, I confused love with performance and that, basically, if I behaved well and I produced good results, it forgave pretty much everything. Of course, that\u2019s not biblical; that\u2019s not how people respond. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ve also realized, and I\u2019m still working on this, I have a fear of intimacy; that I\u2019m not good with really close relationships. We moved a lot when I was a kid; maybe that was part of it. I remember being ten years old, and it was four schools in three years. I made a decision that I wasn\u2019t going to make any more friends\u2014dumb thing\u2014but that\u2019s what ten-year-olds do.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTurns out that we didn\u2019t move a lot after that. All those people could have been my friends; but by that time, the wall was up. Put that in a marriage context, and that doesn\u2019t go very well when you\u2019re <em>afraid<\/em> of the person who is closest to you. I wasn\u2019t afraid\/afraid of Toni; but there was like, \u201cI\u2019m only going so far.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYes; I had those issues. Then my obsession with OCD, and environment, and order got really out of whack.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Let me ask this: \u201cToni, how did you deal with what Carey just said there?\u201d It\u2019s pretty deep about: \u201cI had a fear of intimacy.\u201d I guess I\u2019m probably saying that, because I have the same fear. How did you deal with that in your marriage, because Carey just admitted a similar thing: \u201cWas that a struggle?\u201d \u201cDid that change?\u201d \u201cWhat did that look like?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s part of what we needed to go to counseling for: Carey\u2019s tendency to fear intimacy and mine to not trust anyone. I\u2019ve realized that my trust issues went deep enough to not even trusting God. I started to realize that: \u201cOkay, in my brain, I absolutely want to follow Christ. I\u2019m 100 percent sold on being a Christ-follower\/being surrendered. But in my heart, nothing resonates\/like nothing penetrates.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI started asking questions like: \u201cGod, here I am following You; but where\u2019s the love? Where\u2019s the joy? Where\u2019s the peace?\u201d This emotional journey wasn\u2019t\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> Would you say <em>you<\/em> struggle with intimacy too? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> Well, yes; that was <em>my<\/em> part of the struggle with intimacy; so we were a fine pair, the two of us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> \u2014two emotional toddlers. [Laughter] \u201cGreat; how do you do a relationship with <em>that<\/em>?\u201d I think, for me, just being open about it, it\u2019s a question of feeling not judged\u2014feeling accepted\/feeling safe\u2014that\u2019s something I\u2019m <em>still<\/em> working on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPeople would say\u2014if you follow my leadership stuff\u2014it\u2019s like: \u201cWow! Carey\u2019s very transparent,\u201d \u201cHe\u2019s very open; he\u2019s very real,\u201d and that\u2019s true. You would also get that at my house for dinner, if you were over, and we were hanging out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I think there are layers to intimacy. I would say, for me, you [Toni] know me better than anybody and you see me. It\u2019s Keller\u2019s understanding of the gospel: that the gospel is to be fully known <em>and<\/em> fully loved. What normally happens is: you say, \u201cI want you to fully love me, so you can\u2019t fully know me. Because if you knew <em>this<\/em> about me, then you wouldn\u2019t love me.\u201d So you just hide yourself.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ve had to learn\u2014and Toni\u2019s been the <em>best<\/em> teacher\u2014we\u2019ve gotten, I think, good at accepting each other. Then being a leader, I was always trying to fix my wife; right? \u201cI fix problems all day long, so I\u2019m going to fix you.\u201d That is not a good strategy; uh-uh, terrible. [Laughter] Apparently, as you\u2019ve told me many times, you do not need fixing. [Laughter] Is that true?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s the Holy Spirit\u2019s job. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> Wait; I thought <em>you<\/em> were the Holy Spirit, Ann. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m His helper. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey: <\/strong>Oh, you\u2019re His helper! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> One of the things, Toni, you said in the book, which I thought was very insightful, was when you step into your unprocessed wounds\u2014or your mud, or your baggage, or whatever you bring in\u2014when you started to do that, you started to realize, \u201cI can no longer\u201d\u2014or you said\u2014\u201cI don\u2019t blame Carey now for my unhappiness.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTalk about that, because that\u2019s a big insight. Because that\u2019s what we do; we blame our unhappiness on our spouse or our marriage. You discovered something that\u2019s life-changing, I think. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> Yes; it was through that process of prayer, and really opening myself up to Jesus in the way David describes in Psalm 139, when he says, \u201cLord, see if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting [New International Version].\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI needed to take ownership really. I did have that blaming perspective, where: \u201cIf only you would stop being so upset about the state of the kitchen,\u201d or \u201c\u2026so focused on the environment,\u201d and \u201cIf you would step up as a co-parent, and pay more attention to us instead, then things would be so much better.\u201d I was experiencing really <em>dark<\/em> moods at that point and exhaustion. I really was focused on Carey as the <em>cause<\/em> for those emotions. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut over time, as I prayed about it\/as I listened to what my Christian counselor had to say, I started to recognize that: \u201cNo; there were layers to what was going on.\u201d I was completely emotionally unprepared for marriage. I needed insight into how I managed my own emotions, let alone responded to or handled the emotions of other people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnother layer to my exhaustion was just being isolated. Since I had that underlying belief that: \u201cI\u2019m better off alone,\u201d I really had been functioning as if I was an island\/as if I was the only one who would forge ahead and take control of my life. I wasn\u2019t really being open or vulnerable with the friends that I had around me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI had friends\u2014I was hanging out with people, with other mothers\u2014we would get together with our kids. I had friendships; but I wasn\u2019t <em>really talking<\/em> about what was happening in my heart, in my life, in our marriage. Keeping those things to myself meant that, functionally, I was isolated. I had to come around and reach the point\u2014where I saw that Father, Son and Holy Spirit\u2014that God\u2019s essence is community. None of us, as followers\/as children of God, are intended to be isolated.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI swung around to the view\u2014where I could see that my emotional problems\/my exhaustion was very much a part of how I was living my life\u2014not what Carey was doing in our marriage. I had to reach the point, where I actually believed that I need to rely on God and others to be fully alive; that\u2019s it\u2019s actually a necessity. It\u2019s like the air I breathe; it\u2019s part of\u2014being a child of God means\u2014that\u00a0 we have to have these relationships that are open, vulnerable, transparent, and inter-reliant.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> In a sense, it\u2019s the\u2014and I guess I\u2019m quoting Keller here, as well, in <em>The Meaning of Marriage<\/em>\u2014but one of the things he brings out is the purpose of marriage is to help us become like\/he calls it \u201cour glory selves,\u201d\u2014you know, when we\u2019ll be like Christ in Christ\u2019s presence. It\u2019s like we\u2019re on this journey to get there. We\u2019re <em>never<\/em> going to get there on planet earth, but we\u2019ll get there one day. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd He gives us a spouse, who speaks life\/identifies the mud. We can\u2019t clean it up, but we can speak it into our spouse. If we receive it, we\u2019re going to be sharpened to become more like Christ; if we reject it, we\u2019re stuck\u2014we\u2019re dirty; we\u2019re muddy\u2014we\u2019re not going to get it out of there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHow did that process happen in your marriage? Did God use each other? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> How did you stop being mudslingers? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carey:<\/strong> Some of that was definitely the counseling journey for both of us. We did couple\u2019s counseling and then individual therapy. I think we both\u2014the light bulb went on at different times\u2014maybe a little bit earlier for me that I had to take responsibility for my role in the marriage and stop throwing mud at Toni or blaming her for everything. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI realized, \u201cWow, I really am kind of messed up.\u201d That made me: \u201cFirst of all, the most important thing is what happens here in the home. At the end of the day, I\u2019m a follower of Jesus; I\u2019m a husband, and I\u2019m a father. Those are my most important roles.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs I got that right, ironically, I became a better leader. I\u2019m not the perfect boss\u2014but I\u2019m a better boss\u2014it just has a spillover effect. Because I agreed with Tony; there were times, where we opened up a new building, and I remember you were on the front row, crying\u2014not tears of joy\u2014but tears of: \u201cHow miserable our life is,\u201d and \u201cWhat this cost me.\u201d Now, we\u2019ve been to other buildings we\u2019ve opened and other moments\u2014when there are tears\u2014they are tears of joy and agreement. That is such a joy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think a lot of self-examination, a lot of prayer, a lot of confession. Even when I get worked up in the moment, I\u2019m like, \u201cOkay, what did I bring to this?\u201d Sometimes I\u2019m like, \u201cAbout one percent.\u201d Even now, if we get into a moment, I\u2019d be like, \u201cWhat did I bring to this?\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, not much; it\u2019s all her fault.\u201d [Laughter] You\u2019re probably thinking the same thing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Casey:<\/strong> But I think we have the <em>awareness<\/em> to know now: \u201cWait a minute; I\u2019m probably somewhere between 30 and 70 percent of this problem. So let me try to figure out: \u2018What part do I own?\u2019 \u2018Okay, it was my tone of voice,\u2019 \u2018Okay, it was that I made unreasonable demands,\u2019 \u2018Oh, okay; I expect too much.\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m Enneagram 8; she\u2019s a 5. Ian Morgan Cron says, we wake up with 200 percent battery life in us every day. You would say you wake up with 70 percent battery life, or 80, or whatever. I can often be like: \u201cAnd we\u2019ll do this,\u201d and \u201cWe\u2019ll do this,\u201d and \u201cWe\u2019ll do this,\u201d and \u201cWe\u2019ll do this.\u201d Like, this weekend, I\u2019m painting the entire garage; and Toni looks at that and goes, \u201cThat\u2019s how you\u2019re spending you\u2019re spare time?\u201d \u201cYes, I am.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Toni:<\/strong> \u201cWhat about your Sabbath?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Casey:<\/strong> \u201cCome and help me,\u201d \u201cCome and help me. [Laughter] That\u2019s how I\u2019m spending my Sabbath; what\u2019s your point?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut it\u2019s\/now, I can laugh at that; whereas <em>before<\/em>, that would have been: \u201cWell, you\u2019ve just got to drop what you\u2019re doing and help me. You owe me.\u201d Toni owes me <em>nothing<\/em>. I\u2019m going to do that; if she wants to help, she can help.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf I can add one real practical tip\u2014it would be this\u2014\u201cAsk your spouse today: \u2018What would make this a good day for you?\u2019\u201d I learned to ask that question because, naturally sinful guy, I wake up, going, \u201cWhat would make this a good day for <em>me<\/em>?\u201d I have my whole little list: \u201cDah, dah, dah.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut everybody in your house wakes up with a: \u201cWhat would make this a good day for me?\u201d If you just\u2014like this weekend, I know I\u2019m not going to be painting all day\u2014but I know that probably it\u2019s going to be getting out on the trail, doing a hike; maybe getting out on our bikes; maybe socializing a little bit. I\u2019m going to put my little \u201cWhat would make this a good day for me?\u201d in few hours; and then we\u2019ll focus on how I can help Toni make sure it\u2019s a good day for her.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s a direct application of: \u201cLove your wife as Christ loved the church.\u201d It\u2019s a laying down of your agenda and saying, \u201cIt\u2019s not about me. It\u2019s about her; it\u2019s about Him. I\u2019m going to serve unto Christ\u2014not for my happiness\u2014really for <em>theirs<\/em>.\u201d That\u2019s a beautiful way to do life\/a beautiful way to do marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Really, what\u2019s at the core of what Toni and Carey Nieuwhof have been sharing today is: \u201cWhat would make this a great day for <em>us<\/em>\/for our marriage?\u201d\u2014and ultimately\u2014\u201cWhat would make this a day God is pleased with?\u201d That has to be the focus as we think about our marriage. It can\u2019t just be: \u201cAm I getting what I want out of this marriage?\u201d It has to be something bigger\/something more purposeful and intentional.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think a lot of couples get stuck in the cycle of thinking, \u201cAm I happy?\u201d rather than asking the question: \u201cIs my spouse happy?\u201d and \u201cIs God happy with our marriage?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tToni Nieuwhof has written a book called <em>Before You Split<\/em>. It\u2019s a book that really every couple, who is at a point of hopelessness in your marriage, this is a book you ought to pick up and read, and really work your way through, and ask yourself the question: \u201cHave I done everything I can do to try to preserve my marriage relationship?\u201d \u201cAm I getting the help I need?\u201d \u201cAm I leaning into friends who can help me here?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOftentimes, when couples find themselves in a tough spot in their marriage, they isolate\u2014they go dark\u2014they don\u2019t reach out to anybody else. That\u2019s the exact <em>wrong<\/em> time to be doing that. Toni talks about that and provides other wisdom in the book, <em>Before You Split<\/em>, which is a book we have available in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can get it online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order: 1-800-FL-TODAY is the number. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, the book is called <em>Before You Split: Find Out What You Really Want for the Future of Your Marriage<\/em> by Toni Nieuwhof. Order online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call to order at 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLet me also say: if you\u2019re looking for a way to clean up some of the messiness in your marriage\u2014you\u2019ve got a good marriage, but all of us have those irritations\/those messy spots that we\u2019ve brought our own \u201cmud\u201d stories, as we heard today, into our marriage\u2014and you\u2019d like someone who could help you take a good marriage and make it better, or take a hurting marriage and bring hope, plan to join us this fall at one of our \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t30 <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaways that we\u2019re hosting in cities all across the country. The getaway is a two-and-a-half-day escape for couples, where you\u2019re going to learn what God\u2019s Word has to say about how to build a strong, fulfilling, enduring marriage relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRight now, when you sign up, you\u2019ll save 50 percent off the regular registration fee for an upcoming getaway. That offer is good to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners, and it\u2019s good only through Monday. If you want the 50 percent savings, and if you\u2019re ready to join us this fall at a getaway, go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com. Information about the getaway is available there. You can find a location and a weekend that works for you, and then register online; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY if you have any questions or you\u2019d like to register by phone. Either way, plan to join us at an upcoming <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway. We look forward to seeing you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we\u2019ll hear from Toni Nieuwhof how you process the decision in front of you when your marriage is in a crisis situation\u2014the decision to either split, or to just stay and survive, or to save your marriage\u2014how do you make that decision and what do you do once you\u2019ve decided? Hope you can tune in and be with us tomorrow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. 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