{"id":307180,"date":"2021-07-30T07:00:05","date_gmt":"2021-07-30T11:00:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/the-color-comes-back\/"},"modified":"2025-05-13T16:31:42","modified_gmt":"2025-05-13T20:31:42","slug":"the-color-comes-back","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-color-comes-back\/","title":{"rendered":"The Color Comes Back"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Facing the loss of a loved one can leave life feeling so empty and gray. Ron and Nan Deal, along with Brad and Jill Sullivan, give listeners the hope that the color WILL return!<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Facing the loss of a loved one can leave life feeling so empty and gray. Ron and Nan Deal, along with Brad and Jill Sullivan, give listeners the hope that the color WILL return!<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-07-30.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:28:48","filesize":"26.38M","filesize_raw":"27658363","date_recorded":"2021-07-30 07:00:05","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2847,2845,2879],"tags":[2343,5099,5096,6988,4125,6987],"podcast_series":[8461],"cwp_profile":[9723,3629,3300],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-307180","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-death-and-dying","category-loss-of-a-child-life-issues","category-loss-of-a-child","tag-grief","tag-grieving","tag-hope","tag-hope-in-jesus","tag-loss","tag-loss-of-loved-one","podcast_series-while-were-waiting","cwp_profile-brad-and-jill-sullivan","cwp_profile-nan-deal","cwp_profile-ron-deal","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/307180\/the-color-comes-back","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/307180\/the-color-comes-back","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"X0mRjvPNDw\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-color-comes-back\/\">The Color Comes Back<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-color-comes-back\/embed\/#?secret=X0mRjvPNDw\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;The Color Comes Back&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"X0mRjvPNDw\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-07-30.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-07-30.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Okay, I can specifically remember a day in our life after tragedy\u2014after you sister died\u2014when I was in the kitchen and you were in the garage; do you know what I\u2019m going to say?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, she was my best friend. It was really hard to watch her go; because when she passed, she was only 44. She had four boys, who were young. I think you are going to say, \u201cYou remember hearing me laugh.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I remember you are a joy-filled, laughing woman; you bring laughter into the Wilson house. It\u2019s one of the <em>greatest<\/em> things I love about you, but you hadn\u2019t laughed in two years. I was in the kitchen. You were doing something in the garage, and the door was shut. The laughter was so <em>loud<\/em> it came through the door into the kitchen.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> What did you feel?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I remember thinking, \u201cOh, it\u2019s going to be okay; there is life after death. There is hope.\u201d We <em>knew<\/em> that intellectually; we knew that Scripturally; we knew that theologically\u2014I had taught it as a pastor\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> But when you live it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014but we hadn\u2019t <em>felt<\/em> it. Again, it wasn\u2019t like, \u201cIt\u2019s all over, and now we\u2019re going to be joyful for the rest of our life\u201d; but it was a glimpse of like [deep breath], \u201cOkay, we\u2019re going to make it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> We\u2019re talking a little bit about grieving today, and the hope that comes after grieving; and Jesus is our hope. But it\u2019s not a topic that we always like to go to; because when our friends have experienced it, we feel awkward; we don\u2019t want to say the <em>wrong<\/em> thing. So many times, we say <em>nothing<\/em>, which then that feels weird; but I\u2019m glad that we\u2019re going to have this discussion today.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; so we\u2019ve got the Deals and the Sullivans back with us. We\u2019ve already talked a little bit with Ron and Nan. Many of you know Ron from Blended<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u2014Director of Blended Family Ministry, here, at FamilyLife\u2014amazing ministry. We don\u2019t need to puff him up anymore\u2014[Laughter]\u2014world-renowned author.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Nan is shaking her head; \u201cNo, he\u2019s fine.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Nan is like, \u201cYes, I agree.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Then the Sullivans, Brad and Jill, came in\u2014and great friends of the Deals\u2014but both of you lost a child the same year, 2009. We walked through that journey they both went through the same year, and then the journey after, and what God has even done and is still doing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> In fact, the best is yet to come in terms of your ministry.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> So today, we sort of want to talk about: \u201cOkay, is there life after death? Is there joy? Is there hope?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cIs there hope?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cthat comes.\u201d I\u2019m looking at you, and I can see the smiles.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s real, but we need to help people get through that; so how do you get there?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> I think one of the frames of reference I would give people is: the pain and intensity of your sorrow, after losing a child, changes over time. It doesn\u2019t go away; there are moments where it instantly comes back\u2014we call them landmines\u2014it\u2019s a song on the radio or on your podcast; it\u2019s a word; or you walk in and you find a picture on your phone\u2014and boom\u2014you\u2019re back in the middle of the throes of your sadness. But the space between those moments of intensity gets <em>wider<\/em> over time. In the beginning, it is all-consuming and overwhelming.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> But over time\u2014we\u2019re 12 years out; all of us are in our cases\u2014and the space gets wider; so you are able to experience, again, more of the ups of life,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u2014the happiness in life,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u2014the joy of life. I think, at some level, you can always have joy, even in the beginning, in your head\u2014you <em>know<\/em> Jesus wins the day; we <em>know<\/em> we get to see Connor again\u2014I knew that; I said that at his funeral. That doesn\u2019t mean I didn\u2019t fall apart, immediately after the funeral, and then begin to try to figure out: \u201cHow do you walk through life when you have no motivation for life?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> The reality of sorrow is very, very heavy in the beginning; but there is joy\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> There is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u2014that comes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> This year, we\/our oldest son got married. I\u2019m so thankful we were 12 years out. The first two, four, six [years], I couldn\u2019t have danced like I danced at Braden\u2019s wedding. I was full-on celebrating for them; but there was Connor\u2019s picture on Brennan\u2019s lapel. I was <em>missing<\/em> him like crazy. He was <em>mentioned<\/em> at the rehearsal dinner; he was <em>mentioned<\/em> at the wedding.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> But he wasn\u2019t there the way I <em>wanted<\/em> him;\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> \u2014and yet, we celebrated. I was in a space where I really could.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> I tell you\u2014those first four\/six years\u2014I don\u2019t think I could have like that. It does come!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, here is the question: \u201cHow?\u201d I know it\u2019s true; I mentioned Ann a little bit. I know that I\u2014after my little brother died and I grew up\u2014I got to a place of hope. I\u2019m thinking of a good friend of mine, John and his wife Sonya, lost their teenage son to suicide. We were at the funeral. John got up and gave one the greatest sermons I had ever heard, and sang with his arms <em>raised<\/em> to Jesus in that funeral worship moment. I know, a week later, he <em>collapsed<\/em>. Now, years later, I know he and Sonya\/they\u2019ve found joy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, not fake joy\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014a deep well of joy; but it is a process.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know this process as well as anybody. Help us walk there. I know, Ron, you\u2014I don\u2019t know what they are talking about\u2014but you talk about\/you say the color\u2019s going to come back. What does that mean?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes; so in 1998, Nan and I lived in Jonesboro, Arkansas. Jonesboro had a school shooting; it was one of the first ones.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> \u2014Westside.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> The year before Columbine was the Jonesboro school shooting. I was at the school that night, along with lots of other volunteers, trying to provide comfort to families that had lost their children. The counseling center in our church, within six months\u2014there were five people killed: four students and a teacher\u2014three of those five families were in our care. I walked, personally, through the tragedy with a number of families, but especially those who had lost children. This is all <em>years<\/em> before we lose Connor.<\/p>\n<p>I remember sitting with one of the mothers and had a conversation one day, in which she said to me, \u201cThe color has gone out of my life. My life is gray.\u201d I went home that day and shared that with Nan and said, \u201cThat was a moment, as a counselor, I knew I was incredibly inadequate. I had <em>nothing<\/em> for her; and I also know that that was profound and a holy moment, and I just don\u2019t even know what to do with it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Now, fast-forward, years later, we lose our son, Connor.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> \u2014and there she was.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> And this mother reaches out to <em>us<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> [Emotion in voice] She starts mentoring <em>me<\/em>; she starts helping <em>me<\/em> make sense of my world.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> She never knew the conversations Nan and I had about the story\u2014\u201cLife is gray,\u201d and \u201cI\u2019ve lost the color\u2026\u201d\u2014she never knew we dialogued about that or that I had shared that with colleagues and people and had talked about it.<\/p>\n<p>Out of the blue one day, she sends me this message; she says, \u201cRon, I told you once that my world was gray, and I just want you to know the color comes back.\u201d So here\u2019s this woman, who out of her tragedy, is now turning around and giving to me. I held onto that: \u201cThe color comes back.\u201d I just said that to myself over, and over, and over.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s\/as I believer, I <em>know<\/em> the color is wrapped up in the cross and Christ defeating death. I have hope because of that, but my pain is <em>really<\/em> strong right now. Someday, I\u2019ll see Connor again; but that\u2019s not today. So at the same time, I have joy; I also have sorrow. Those two things do not cancel one another out. Christians need to know this and hear me say this; because when you say to somebody, \u201cWell, aren\u2019t you glad they\u2026\u201d\u2014whatever\u2014\u201cYou\u2019ll see them again,\u201d as if that means their pain goes away now. It doesn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>We comfort people with what <em>will be<\/em>, but we have to help people be sad and cry over what is\u2014and we have to do both of those at the same time\u2014which is what I think While We\u2019re Waiting does. It gives people a space to, in their faith, deal with their pain. We\u2019ve said this before on this program: \u201cMy faith informs my pain, but it doesn\u2019t get rid of it.\u201d While We\u2019re Waiting gives people a space to do that in the midst of their Christian beliefs.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m just thinking, \u201cIt\u2019s interesting that if somebody else, who really hadn\u2019t gone through something like that,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201chad said the same words to you, you might have just winked and said, \u2018Thanks.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> But somebody, who has been there\u2014I mean, we mentioned this earlier\u2014but it really is 2 Corinthians 1, where Paul wrote: \u201cBlessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our afflictions so that\u201d\u2014there is the purpose\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014why does He comfort us?\u2014just for us?\u2014well, partly; but really\u2014\u201cso that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.\u201d She did that for you. Now, you\/all of us are doing that for others.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Let me ask you: \u201cAs you\u2019ve done that\/as you\u2019ve grieved, you are also having grieving siblings\/\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014grieving children that are still in your home. How do you do that when you are suffering so much?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> That is a <em>really<\/em> hard thing. I actually recently recorded a podcast with my daughter about that topic. She is now 25; she was 14 when her sister went to heaven. We acknowledged the fact that, when she lost her sister, she\u2014we just had the two girls\u2014Hannah was her best friend; Hannah was her confidante. Hannah was the one, who she went to with everything that a girl is going through. When Hannah went to heaven, she lost her sister\u2014but she also lost her parents\/the parents that she had known all of her life\u2014it was a <em>profound<\/em> loss for her.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> And she became an only child.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> She became an instant only child with parents, who were no longer the same. At the time, we really weren\u2019t\u2014like you said, we are so caught up in our own grief\u2014and we tried to help her and be there for her; but it\u2019s a very hard thing to do. We\u2019ve learned\u2014it now, of course, in retrospect\u2014that we should have included her in our grief more. We tried to protect her from our grief, and she tried to protect us from her grief; so we ended up grieving a lot behind closed doors and grieving separately.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> You were isolated.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> We should have been grieving <em>together<\/em>. I think that would have helped both of us. Of course, we did that some; but we could have done that better. You know, all of these things you can look back at now and say, \u201cOkay; these are the things we could have done better.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Do you remember laughing together, as a family, after Hannah\u2019s death?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> That\u2019s the thing I want to encourage people, too; the laughter and the joy comes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> At a retreat, if you would walk up inside the refuge, and hear the laughter going on, you would think, \u201cBoy, I want to join this party.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> But then you find out what we\u2019re all there for; but\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, we haven\u2019t mentioned on this episode: \u201cWhy are you there?\u201d We are talking about this While We\u2019re Waiting retreat for parents that have lost a child. So you are all there, because you\u2019ve lost a child; but you\u2019re <em>laughing<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> We\u2019re laughing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> We probably laugh more than we cry.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> We absolutely do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> That\u2019s good, but that also is that safe place for parents to do that. That\u2019s so powerful to us to get to see God work. Our Father is the Redeemer, and He\u2019s starting to redeem this story. It\u2019s always going\u2014we know it\u2019s going to be redeemed\u2014we focus on that hope and have our eyes fixed toward eternity. It\u2019s powerful\u2014and to experience that\u2014but just to see joy start returning in others\u2019 lives\/in our lives and then to see God work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> We kind of changed, as parents, too. We kind of jokingly, with our other two boys, at this point, talk about the lost two years when they kind of lost us as parents, like we just weren\u2019t functioning very well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Is there anything you can do about that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> For us, God\u2019s grace was my sister, who repeatedly flew to where we lived and spent time with us. We would say, \u201cHey, Aunt Sherilynn is going to come back\u201d; and my youngest son, Brennan, would go, \u201cOh, good; we\u2019ll get to eat again.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> I mean, it was sort of the joke; we forgot to feed them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> But my sister came\u2014she cooked\u2014I\u2019m not kidding. We really stopped being proactive parents\u2014all the things we hear at FamilyLife\/teach parents to do\u2014we went <em>numb<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> We could barely function.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> We could barely function, getting through life, so you need that community of people around you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> You do. I would say, too, it just takes time. I think we need to be gentle with bereaved parents; but it\u2019s not a year, and then it\u2019s over.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> It takes time. Some people take a little bit longer to find their way than others. I would say I was one of those people. I was really angry with God; I was frustrated with Him. I really dug in my heels for a long time. I\u2019m on the other side of that now, but it just takes time. The joy can come back. I think the one thing that we did really well was we extended each other a tremendous amount of grace.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I wanted to ask.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I wanted to ask about the difference.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Maybe, one spouse is mad at God, and the other has moved beyond that\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> That was us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Difference in grieving, you mean?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> The timetable is different. So how do you\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> You know, I would be really curious for Brad and Jill to talk about their journey. When Nan and I started grieving, we like to say we grieved together.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> We clung to each other.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u2014walked with each other. The intensity of our pain was the same; the frequency was the same; we were both in the pit together.<\/p>\n<p>Then I would say, four or five years into it,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> \u2014you read the book of Job.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> It kind of helped me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> That helped?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> It helped me turn some corners, theologically, in my head and make sense of some things. She didn\u2019t want anything to do with that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> I was <em>stuck<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> You were still mad at God?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> I was so stuck.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Were you resentful of Ron?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> I wasn\u2019t resentful; I just wasn\u2019t going there. I let him go; I did.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> I let you go.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> The big journey for us, at that point, as we began to diverge a little bit,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Yes, we did.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u2014emotionally, from where we were and how we would function in life\u2014is we had to have, as she said, grace for each other, which meant I needed to be really super patient when she needed to rehash stuff over, and over, and over again that I no longer needed to do. I needed to sit, and listen, and be with her. It\u2019s delicate; there is no\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> It is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u2014there is no prescription for this. For every couple and family, it would be different. For us, all four of us, individually, were grieving; we had our own journeys. But then we tried to do the family grieving thing, like Jill said. We tried to talk, and share, and be open with each other, and connect into our children\u2019s grief; but that\u2019s only when I could be mindful enough to get outside of my own head to\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u2014enter into their space. It\u2019s a hard, hard, hard journey; and you don\u2019t know if you are doing it right\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u2014or wrong,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u2014which, again, reinforces this idea that, when you have somebody to bounce it off of\/somebody who is ahead of you\u2014another person, who is grieving beside you\u2014you kind of get a sense of where you are at, and what you can do different, and what you can\u2019t control.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m curious about <em>your<\/em> grief journey as a couple; what was that like?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes; I think ours was a little bit different; in that, ours started before Hannah actually went to heaven; you know? From the time she was diagnosed, we knew we were dealing with a potentially terminal illness. We prayed for healing; we trusted for healing, but we knew that God might not choose to heal her.<\/p>\n<p>We began grieving her before she went to heaven. We had to walk that journey of\u2014the cancer journey\u2014with our child, making decisions about treatments, and hospitals, and things like that. We had to process some of those things together before she died. I think that maybe bonded us together\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> \u2014a little bit in that\/so that when we grieved, I think we grieved together.<\/p>\n<p>One thing we definitely noticed\u2014and I\u2019ve heard many, many bereaved parents say this\u2014when he would have a really, really bad day, I was usually doing okay\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> \u2014and then vice versa.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> When I was having a really, really bad day, or week, or whatever, he was doing okay. We rarely were both way down here at the same time. I think that\u2019s a grace that God gives us;\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> I agree.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Amen.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> I agree.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> \u2014you know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m guessing\u2014maybe, you\u2019ve heard that as you do your retreats\u2014is that something that you hear couples say?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> We hear that a lot.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Yes; a lot.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> The truth is\u2014and I don\u2019t know the statistic\u2014maybe, Ron, you know it\u2014the numbers of marriages that don\u2019t make it after a tragedy like this; they <em>don\u2019t<\/em> make it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> You know, I\u2019m glad you brought that up. I\u2019ve looked into it; there\u2019s really not any good science. You\u2019ll hear things like: \u201cEighty-five percent of couples divorce after losing a child.\u201d That\u2019s not true; it\u2019s not true. It\u2019s not nearly that bad.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> But it\u2019s <em>hard<\/em>; it takes a toll on your relationship. Again, if you have other children, they can be so forgotten in the process. People ask you\/other adults ask you, \u201cHow are you doing?\u201d because they are adults; you\u2019re an adult. Very few people go up to your 14-year-old and say, \u201cDude, how\u2019re you doing, really? No, I want to know. Tell me about this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> They will ask, \u201cHow is your mom doing?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> You guys, is that something we should be doing in the church\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Oh!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014go up to the kids\/the siblings and ask them?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill: <\/strong>Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Because the parents are having a hard time doing it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> If you\u2019ll step in and be a parent for those kids or help them\u2014I would long for just somebody to take them out of the house\u2014where the grieving mom was just\/a cloud was over, and take them to get a shake or take them to a movie\u2014do something normal\u2014because they are not grieving on the same level as the parents are; just help.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> There is actually a term, \u201cthe forgotten mourners,\u201d that\u2019s what siblings are called in the research literature around this; because everybody gets paid attention to\u2014the adults do\u2014but not so much the kids.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> So if\u2014you\u2019ve already said it, so I don\u2019t know if I am asking for something you\u2019ve already said\u2014but if you could look at a parent right now, listening, whose feeling like: \u201cI don\u2019t know if I\u2019ll laugh again,\u201d \u201cI don\u2019t know if I will every feel the joy I once had before my son or daughter died,\u201d what would you say to them? Anyone of you or all of you: \u201cHow could you help them? What would you remind them of?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> I would say two things: \u201cThe color comes back,\u201d and \u201cJust take the next step.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u201cThat\u2019s about as far as you can see right now,\u201d and \u201cYou don\u2019t\/you worry about what\u2019s beyond that, and there are so many questions in your head that you don\u2019t know how to answer\u2014you\u2019re right\u2014try to focus on just taking the next step.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I just want to say\u2014I\u2019m guessing somebody stumbled on this program today\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014they are like, \u201cI don\u2019t\/I can\u2019t believe I tuned into this podcast\/radio broadcast.\u201d This is hope. God put this program in your ears right now, because you need what we\u2019re talking about.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think about Jesus saying, \u201cCome to Me all you who are weary\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cand heavy laden, and I will give you rest.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Thanks for being with us, you guys. Appreciate you so much.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Thanks for having us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Thank you so much.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> It may be that you\u2019re the person or the couple Dave Wilson was talking about just a minute ago: someone who stumbled on this program and who needs what Dave and Ann have been talking with Ron and Nan Deal and Brad and Jill Sullivan about today. You need comfort; you need God to draw near to you in the midst of your own grief. Let me encourage you to go to our website at FamilyLifeToday.com. There is a link there to Brad and Jill Sullivan\u2019s website\u2014more about their ministry is available\u2014again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Then we recommend podcasts and books\u2014resources\u2014that can help you as you walk through a season of grief. Or maybe, you know somebody, who is walking through a season of grief, and you want to look for resources for them. Levi Lusko and his wife Jennie were here recently; they shared about the loss of their five-year-old daughter. Levi has written a book about their journey through grief called <em>Through the Eyes of a Lion: Facing Impossible Pain, Finding Incredible Power<\/em>. You can order that book from us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Maybe, you know somebody you want to pass it onto. Again, the website, FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order the book: 1-800-FL-TODAY is our number; that\u2019s 800-358-6329; 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Well, here we are at the end of July\/the beginning of August. For some of us, summer is already starting to wind down. We\u2019re looking ahead to the new school year starting, and fall is almost here. It\u2019s going to be a sprint before long. David Robbins, who is the president of FamilyLife, is here with us. I think that\u2019s how a lot of our listeners are feeling right now; right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>David:<\/strong> Well, that is certainly what\u2019s happening in the Robbins\u2019 household, Bob. I mean, summer is feeling basically over. School is right around the corner for us. I mean, we are shopping, and school supplying, and getting in the last bits of summer. One of the things Meg and I did recently was peek into the fall and realize how quickly it was coming. You know, you look at the next 90 days, and you go, \u201cOkay, it\u2019s here.\u201d It\u2019s already so full with a lot of things like kids\u2019 sports and school activities; and we just kind of had a pause moment to go, \u201cHow are we going to invest in our marriage?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>We are so excited at FamilyLife to be able to share that most of our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> locations are opening up and coming to a city near you, and we want to invite you to take a pause yourself and go ahead and carve out time. Think proactively now. It\u2019s going to be a sprint in August and September for many of you, as families. We know that reality: \u201cSo how do you plan ahead to carve out time, just you and your spouse to get away?\u201d That\u2019s what <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> is all about.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, and what we are suggesting is that you, now, put it on your calendar. Go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com. Find out when a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> getaway is happening near you and make this a priority for the fall. Don\u2019t let it get crowded out by other things by putting it off. Decide today that you\u2019re going to join us this fall at a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway. Again, get more information online at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>With that, we\u2019ve got to wrap things up for this week. Thanks for joining us. I hope you have a great weekend. I hope you and your family are able to worship together in your local church this weekend. Then join us on Monday when we\u2019re going to talk about how important it is for us to be thinking rightly about our identity: about who we are\/who God made us to be. Trevin Wax joins us for that conversation, and I hope you can join us as well.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. Have a great weekend. We will see you Monday for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. 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the loss of a loved one can leave life feeling so empty and gray. Ron and Nan Deal, along with Brad and Jill Sullivan, give listeners the hope that the color WILL return!","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-07-30.pdf","transcript_content":"<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Okay, I can specifically remember a day in our life after tragedy\u2014after you sister died\u2014when I was in the kitchen and you were in the garage; do you know what I\u2019m going to say?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, she was my best friend. It was really hard to watch her go; because when she passed, she was only 44. She had four boys, who were young. I think you are going to say, \u201cYou remember hearing me laugh.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I remember you are a joy-filled, laughing woman; you bring laughter into the Wilson house. It\u2019s one of the <em>greatest<\/em> things I love about you, but you hadn\u2019t laughed in two years. I was in the kitchen. You were doing something in the garage, and the door was shut. The laughter was so <em>loud<\/em> it came through the door into the kitchen.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> What did you feel?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I remember thinking, \u201cOh, it\u2019s going to be okay; there is life after death. There is hope.\u201d We <em>knew<\/em> that intellectually; we knew that Scripturally; we knew that theologically\u2014I had taught it as a pastor\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> But when you live it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014but we hadn\u2019t <em>felt<\/em> it. Again, it wasn\u2019t like, \u201cIt\u2019s all over, and now we\u2019re going to be joyful for the rest of our life\u201d; but it was a glimpse of like [deep breath], \u201cOkay, we\u2019re going to make it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> We\u2019re talking a little bit about grieving today, and the hope that comes after grieving; and Jesus is our hope. But it\u2019s not a topic that we always like to go to; because when our friends have experienced it, we feel awkward; we don\u2019t want to say the <em>wrong<\/em> thing. So many times, we say <em>nothing<\/em>, which then that feels weird; but I\u2019m glad that we\u2019re going to have this discussion today.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; so we\u2019ve got the Deals and the Sullivans back with us. We\u2019ve already talked a little bit with Ron and Nan. Many of you know Ron from Blended<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u2014Director of Blended Family Ministry, here, at FamilyLife\u2014amazing ministry. We don\u2019t need to puff him up anymore\u2014[Laughter]\u2014world-renowned author.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Nan is shaking her head; \u201cNo, he\u2019s fine.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Nan is like, \u201cYes, I agree.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Then the Sullivans, Brad and Jill, came in\u2014and great friends of the Deals\u2014but both of you lost a child the same year, 2009. We walked through that journey they both went through the same year, and then the journey after, and what God has even done and is still doing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> In fact, the best is yet to come in terms of your ministry.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> So today, we sort of want to talk about: \u201cOkay, is there life after death? Is there joy? Is there hope?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cIs there hope?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cthat comes.\u201d I\u2019m looking at you, and I can see the smiles.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s real, but we need to help people get through that; so how do you get there?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> I think one of the frames of reference I would give people is: the pain and intensity of your sorrow, after losing a child, changes over time. It doesn\u2019t go away; there are moments where it instantly comes back\u2014we call them landmines\u2014it\u2019s a song on the radio or on your podcast; it\u2019s a word; or you walk in and you find a picture on your phone\u2014and boom\u2014you\u2019re back in the middle of the throes of your sadness. But the space between those moments of intensity gets <em>wider<\/em> over time. In the beginning, it is all-consuming and overwhelming.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> But over time\u2014we\u2019re 12 years out; all of us are in our cases\u2014and the space gets wider; so you are able to experience, again, more of the ups of life,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u2014the happiness in life,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u2014the joy of life. I think, at some level, you can always have joy, even in the beginning, in your head\u2014you <em>know<\/em> Jesus wins the day; we <em>know<\/em> we get to see Connor again\u2014I knew that; I said that at his funeral. That doesn\u2019t mean I didn\u2019t fall apart, immediately after the funeral, and then begin to try to figure out: \u201cHow do you walk through life when you have no motivation for life?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> The reality of sorrow is very, very heavy in the beginning; but there is joy\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> There is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u2014that comes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> This year, we\/our oldest son got married. I\u2019m so thankful we were 12 years out. The first two, four, six [years], I couldn\u2019t have danced like I danced at Braden\u2019s wedding. I was full-on celebrating for them; but there was Connor\u2019s picture on Brennan\u2019s lapel. I was <em>missing<\/em> him like crazy. He was <em>mentioned<\/em> at the rehearsal dinner; he was <em>mentioned<\/em> at the wedding.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> But he wasn\u2019t there the way I <em>wanted<\/em> him;\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> \u2014and yet, we celebrated. I was in a space where I really could.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> I tell you\u2014those first four\/six years\u2014I don\u2019t think I could have like that. It does come!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, here is the question: \u201cHow?\u201d I know it\u2019s true; I mentioned Ann a little bit. I know that I\u2014after my little brother died and I grew up\u2014I got to a place of hope. I\u2019m thinking of a good friend of mine, John and his wife Sonya, lost their teenage son to suicide. We were at the funeral. John got up and gave one the greatest sermons I had ever heard, and sang with his arms <em>raised<\/em> to Jesus in that funeral worship moment. I know, a week later, he <em>collapsed<\/em>. Now, years later, I know he and Sonya\/they\u2019ve found joy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, not fake joy\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014a deep well of joy; but it is a process.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know this process as well as anybody. Help us walk there. I know, Ron, you\u2014I don\u2019t know what they are talking about\u2014but you talk about\/you say the color\u2019s going to come back. What does that mean?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes; so in 1998, Nan and I lived in Jonesboro, Arkansas. Jonesboro had a school shooting; it was one of the first ones.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> \u2014Westside.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> The year before Columbine was the Jonesboro school shooting. I was at the school that night, along with lots of other volunteers, trying to provide comfort to families that had lost their children. The counseling center in our church, within six months\u2014there were five people killed: four students and a teacher\u2014three of those five families were in our care. I walked, personally, through the tragedy with a number of families, but especially those who had lost children. This is all <em>years<\/em> before we lose Connor.<\/p>\n<p>I remember sitting with one of the mothers and had a conversation one day, in which she said to me, \u201cThe color has gone out of my life. My life is gray.\u201d I went home that day and shared that with Nan and said, \u201cThat was a moment, as a counselor, I knew I was incredibly inadequate. I had <em>nothing<\/em> for her; and I also know that that was profound and a holy moment, and I just don\u2019t even know what to do with it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Now, fast-forward, years later, we lose our son, Connor.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> \u2014and there she was.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> And this mother reaches out to <em>us<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> [Emotion in voice] She starts mentoring <em>me<\/em>; she starts helping <em>me<\/em> make sense of my world.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> She never knew the conversations Nan and I had about the story\u2014\u201cLife is gray,\u201d and \u201cI\u2019ve lost the color\u2026\u201d\u2014she never knew we dialogued about that or that I had shared that with colleagues and people and had talked about it.<\/p>\n<p>Out of the blue one day, she sends me this message; she says, \u201cRon, I told you once that my world was gray, and I just want you to know the color comes back.\u201d So here\u2019s this woman, who out of her tragedy, is now turning around and giving to me. I held onto that: \u201cThe color comes back.\u201d I just said that to myself over, and over, and over.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s\/as I believer, I <em>know<\/em> the color is wrapped up in the cross and Christ defeating death. I have hope because of that, but my pain is <em>really<\/em> strong right now. Someday, I\u2019ll see Connor again; but that\u2019s not today. So at the same time, I have joy; I also have sorrow. Those two things do not cancel one another out. Christians need to know this and hear me say this; because when you say to somebody, \u201cWell, aren\u2019t you glad they\u2026\u201d\u2014whatever\u2014\u201cYou\u2019ll see them again,\u201d as if that means their pain goes away now. It doesn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>We comfort people with what <em>will be<\/em>, but we have to help people be sad and cry over what is\u2014and we have to do both of those at the same time\u2014which is what I think While We\u2019re Waiting does. It gives people a space to, in their faith, deal with their pain. We\u2019ve said this before on this program: \u201cMy faith informs my pain, but it doesn\u2019t get rid of it.\u201d While We\u2019re Waiting gives people a space to do that in the midst of their Christian beliefs.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m just thinking, \u201cIt\u2019s interesting that if somebody else, who really hadn\u2019t gone through something like that,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201chad said the same words to you, you might have just winked and said, \u2018Thanks.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> But somebody, who has been there\u2014I mean, we mentioned this earlier\u2014but it really is 2 Corinthians 1, where Paul wrote: \u201cBlessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our afflictions so that\u201d\u2014there is the purpose\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014why does He comfort us?\u2014just for us?\u2014well, partly; but really\u2014\u201cso that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.\u201d She did that for you. Now, you\/all of us are doing that for others.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Let me ask you: \u201cAs you\u2019ve done that\/as you\u2019ve grieved, you are also having grieving siblings\/\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014grieving children that are still in your home. How do you do that when you are suffering so much?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> That is a <em>really<\/em> hard thing. I actually recently recorded a podcast with my daughter about that topic. She is now 25; she was 14 when her sister went to heaven. We acknowledged the fact that, when she lost her sister, she\u2014we just had the two girls\u2014Hannah was her best friend; Hannah was her confidante. Hannah was the one, who she went to with everything that a girl is going through. When Hannah went to heaven, she lost her sister\u2014but she also lost her parents\/the parents that she had known all of her life\u2014it was a <em>profound<\/em> loss for her.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> And she became an only child.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> She became an instant only child with parents, who were no longer the same. At the time, we really weren\u2019t\u2014like you said, we are so caught up in our own grief\u2014and we tried to help her and be there for her; but it\u2019s a very hard thing to do. We\u2019ve learned\u2014it now, of course, in retrospect\u2014that we should have included her in our grief more. We tried to protect her from our grief, and she tried to protect us from her grief; so we ended up grieving a lot behind closed doors and grieving separately.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> You were isolated.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> We should have been grieving <em>together<\/em>. I think that would have helped both of us. Of course, we did that some; but we could have done that better. You know, all of these things you can look back at now and say, \u201cOkay; these are the things we could have done better.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Do you remember laughing together, as a family, after Hannah\u2019s death?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> That\u2019s the thing I want to encourage people, too; the laughter and the joy comes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> At a retreat, if you would walk up inside the refuge, and hear the laughter going on, you would think, \u201cBoy, I want to join this party.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> But then you find out what we\u2019re all there for; but\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, we haven\u2019t mentioned on this episode: \u201cWhy are you there?\u201d We are talking about this While We\u2019re Waiting retreat for parents that have lost a child. So you are all there, because you\u2019ve lost a child; but you\u2019re <em>laughing<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> We\u2019re laughing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> We probably laugh more than we cry.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> We absolutely do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> That\u2019s good, but that also is that safe place for parents to do that. That\u2019s so powerful to us to get to see God work. Our Father is the Redeemer, and He\u2019s starting to redeem this story. It\u2019s always going\u2014we know it\u2019s going to be redeemed\u2014we focus on that hope and have our eyes fixed toward eternity. It\u2019s powerful\u2014and to experience that\u2014but just to see joy start returning in others\u2019 lives\/in our lives and then to see God work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> We kind of changed, as parents, too. We kind of jokingly, with our other two boys, at this point, talk about the lost two years when they kind of lost us as parents, like we just weren\u2019t functioning very well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Is there anything you can do about that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> For us, God\u2019s grace was my sister, who repeatedly flew to where we lived and spent time with us. We would say, \u201cHey, Aunt Sherilynn is going to come back\u201d; and my youngest son, Brennan, would go, \u201cOh, good; we\u2019ll get to eat again.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> I mean, it was sort of the joke; we forgot to feed them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> But my sister came\u2014she cooked\u2014I\u2019m not kidding. We really stopped being proactive parents\u2014all the things we hear at FamilyLife\/teach parents to do\u2014we went <em>numb<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> We could barely function.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> We could barely function, getting through life, so you need that community of people around you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> You do. I would say, too, it just takes time. I think we need to be gentle with bereaved parents; but it\u2019s not a year, and then it\u2019s over.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> It takes time. Some people take a little bit longer to find their way than others. I would say I was one of those people. I was really angry with God; I was frustrated with Him. I really dug in my heels for a long time. I\u2019m on the other side of that now, but it just takes time. The joy can come back. I think the one thing that we did really well was we extended each other a tremendous amount of grace.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I wanted to ask.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I wanted to ask about the difference.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Maybe, one spouse is mad at God, and the other has moved beyond that\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> That was us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Difference in grieving, you mean?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> The timetable is different. So how do you\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> You know, I would be really curious for Brad and Jill to talk about their journey. When Nan and I started grieving, we like to say we grieved together.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> We clung to each other.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u2014walked with each other. The intensity of our pain was the same; the frequency was the same; we were both in the pit together.<\/p>\n<p>Then I would say, four or five years into it,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> \u2014you read the book of Job.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> It kind of helped me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> That helped?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> It helped me turn some corners, theologically, in my head and make sense of some things. She didn\u2019t want anything to do with that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> I was <em>stuck<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> You were still mad at God?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> I was so stuck.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Were you resentful of Ron?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> I wasn\u2019t resentful; I just wasn\u2019t going there. I let him go; I did.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> I let you go.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> The big journey for us, at that point, as we began to diverge a little bit,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Yes, we did.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u2014emotionally, from where we were and how we would function in life\u2014is we had to have, as she said, grace for each other, which meant I needed to be really super patient when she needed to rehash stuff over, and over, and over again that I no longer needed to do. I needed to sit, and listen, and be with her. It\u2019s delicate; there is no\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> It is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u2014there is no prescription for this. For every couple and family, it would be different. For us, all four of us, individually, were grieving; we had our own journeys. But then we tried to do the family grieving thing, like Jill said. We tried to talk, and share, and be open with each other, and connect into our children\u2019s grief; but that\u2019s only when I could be mindful enough to get outside of my own head to\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u2014enter into their space. It\u2019s a hard, hard, hard journey; and you don\u2019t know if you are doing it right\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u2014or wrong,\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u2014which, again, reinforces this idea that, when you have somebody to bounce it off of\/somebody who is ahead of you\u2014another person, who is grieving beside you\u2014you kind of get a sense of where you are at, and what you can do different, and what you can\u2019t control.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m curious about <em>your<\/em> grief journey as a couple; what was that like?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes; I think ours was a little bit different; in that, ours started before Hannah actually went to heaven; you know? From the time she was diagnosed, we knew we were dealing with a potentially terminal illness. We prayed for healing; we trusted for healing, but we knew that God might not choose to heal her.<\/p>\n<p>We began grieving her before she went to heaven. We had to walk that journey of\u2014the cancer journey\u2014with our child, making decisions about treatments, and hospitals, and things like that. We had to process some of those things together before she died. I think that maybe bonded us together\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> \u2014a little bit in that\/so that when we grieved, I think we grieved together.<\/p>\n<p>One thing we definitely noticed\u2014and I\u2019ve heard many, many bereaved parents say this\u2014when he would have a really, really bad day, I was usually doing okay\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> \u2014and then vice versa.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> When I was having a really, really bad day, or week, or whatever, he was doing okay. We rarely were both way down here at the same time. I think that\u2019s a grace that God gives us;\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> I agree.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Amen.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> I agree.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> \u2014you know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m guessing\u2014maybe, you\u2019ve heard that as you do your retreats\u2014is that something that you hear couples say?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> We hear that a lot.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Yes; a lot.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> The truth is\u2014and I don\u2019t know the statistic\u2014maybe, Ron, you know it\u2014the numbers of marriages that don\u2019t make it after a tragedy like this; they <em>don\u2019t<\/em> make it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> You know, I\u2019m glad you brought that up. I\u2019ve looked into it; there\u2019s really not any good science. You\u2019ll hear things like: \u201cEighty-five percent of couples divorce after losing a child.\u201d That\u2019s not true; it\u2019s not true. It\u2019s not nearly that bad.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> But it\u2019s <em>hard<\/em>; it takes a toll on your relationship. Again, if you have other children, they can be so forgotten in the process. People ask you\/other adults ask you, \u201cHow are you doing?\u201d because they are adults; you\u2019re an adult. Very few people go up to your 14-year-old and say, \u201cDude, how\u2019re you doing, really? No, I want to know. Tell me about this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> They will ask, \u201cHow is your mom doing?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> You guys, is that something we should be doing in the church\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Oh!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014go up to the kids\/the siblings and ask them?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill: <\/strong>Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Because the parents are having a hard time doing it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> If you\u2019ll step in and be a parent for those kids or help them\u2014I would long for just somebody to take them out of the house\u2014where the grieving mom was just\/a cloud was over, and take them to get a shake or take them to a movie\u2014do something normal\u2014because they are not grieving on the same level as the parents are; just help.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> There is actually a term, \u201cthe forgotten mourners,\u201d that\u2019s what siblings are called in the research literature around this; because everybody gets paid attention to\u2014the adults do\u2014but not so much the kids.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> So if\u2014you\u2019ve already said it, so I don\u2019t know if I am asking for something you\u2019ve already said\u2014but if you could look at a parent right now, listening, whose feeling like: \u201cI don\u2019t know if I\u2019ll laugh again,\u201d \u201cI don\u2019t know if I will every feel the joy I once had before my son or daughter died,\u201d what would you say to them? Anyone of you or all of you: \u201cHow could you help them? What would you remind them of?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> I would say two things: \u201cThe color comes back,\u201d and \u201cJust take the next step.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ron:<\/strong> \u201cThat\u2019s about as far as you can see right now,\u201d and \u201cYou don\u2019t\/you worry about what\u2019s beyond that, and there are so many questions in your head that you don\u2019t know how to answer\u2014you\u2019re right\u2014try to focus on just taking the next step.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I just want to say\u2014I\u2019m guessing somebody stumbled on this program today\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014they are like, \u201cI don\u2019t\/I can\u2019t believe I tuned into this podcast\/radio broadcast.\u201d This is hope. God put this program in your ears right now, because you need what we\u2019re talking about.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think about Jesus saying, \u201cCome to Me all you who are weary\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cand heavy laden, and I will give you rest.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Thanks for being with us, you guys. Appreciate you so much.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Nan:<\/strong> Thanks for having us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brad:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jill:<\/strong> Thank you so much.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> It may be that you\u2019re the person or the couple Dave Wilson was talking about just a minute ago: someone who stumbled on this program and who needs what Dave and Ann have been talking with Ron and Nan Deal and Brad and Jill Sullivan about today. You need comfort; you need God to draw near to you in the midst of your own grief. Let me encourage you to go to our website at FamilyLifeToday.com. There is a link there to Brad and Jill Sullivan\u2019s website\u2014more about their ministry is available\u2014again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Then we recommend podcasts and books\u2014resources\u2014that can help you as you walk through a season of grief. Or maybe, you know somebody, who is walking through a season of grief, and you want to look for resources for them. Levi Lusko and his wife Jennie were here recently; they shared about the loss of their five-year-old daughter. Levi has written a book about their journey through grief called <em>Through the Eyes of a Lion: Facing Impossible Pain, Finding Incredible Power<\/em>. You can order that book from us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Maybe, you know somebody you want to pass it onto. Again, the website, FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order the book: 1-800-FL-TODAY is our number; that\u2019s 800-358-6329; 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Well, here we are at the end of July\/the beginning of August. For some of us, summer is already starting to wind down. We\u2019re looking ahead to the new school year starting, and fall is almost here. It\u2019s going to be a sprint before long. David Robbins, who is the president of FamilyLife, is here with us. I think that\u2019s how a lot of our listeners are feeling right now; right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>David:<\/strong> Well, that is certainly what\u2019s happening in the Robbins\u2019 household, Bob. I mean, summer is feeling basically over. School is right around the corner for us. I mean, we are shopping, and school supplying, and getting in the last bits of summer. One of the things Meg and I did recently was peek into the fall and realize how quickly it was coming. You know, you look at the next 90 days, and you go, \u201cOkay, it\u2019s here.\u201d It\u2019s already so full with a lot of things like kids\u2019 sports and school activities; and we just kind of had a pause moment to go, \u201cHow are we going to invest in our marriage?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>We are so excited at FamilyLife to be able to share that most of our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> locations are opening up and coming to a city near you, and we want to invite you to take a pause yourself and go ahead and carve out time. Think proactively now. It\u2019s going to be a sprint in August and September for many of you, as families. We know that reality: \u201cSo how do you plan ahead to carve out time, just you and your spouse to get away?\u201d That\u2019s what <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> is all about.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, and what we are suggesting is that you, now, put it on your calendar. Go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com. Find out when a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> getaway is happening near you and make this a priority for the fall. Don\u2019t let it get crowded out by other things by putting it off. Decide today that you\u2019re going to join us this fall at a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway. Again, get more information online at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>With that, we\u2019ve got to wrap things up for this week. Thanks for joining us. I hope you have a great weekend. I hope you and your family are able to worship together in your local church this weekend. Then join us on Monday when we\u2019re going to talk about how important it is for us to be thinking rightly about our identity: about who we are\/who God made us to be. Trevin Wax joins us for that conversation, and I hope you can join us as well.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. Have a great weekend. We will see you Monday for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a><\/p>\n<p>1<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/307180","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=307180"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=307180"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=307180"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=307180"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=307180"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=307180"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=307180"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}