{"id":306951,"date":"2021-07-19T07:00:04","date_gmt":"2021-07-19T11:00:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/seeing-eye-to-eye\/"},"modified":"2021-07-19T07:00:04","modified_gmt":"2021-07-19T11:00:04","slug":"seeing-eye-to-eye","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/seeing-eye-to-eye\/","title":{"rendered":"Seeing Eye To Eye"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Having trouble seeing eye to eye with your family? Expressing deep convictions can be challenging in many families, but Tim Muehlhoff and Rick Langer share a simple method to do so with empathy.<br \/>\nShow Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tLearn more about Winsome Conviction atWinsomeConviction.com<br \/>\n \tFind resources from this podcast at https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130.<br \/>\n \tDownload FamilyLife&#8217;s new app! https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/<br \/>\n \tCheck out all that&#8217;s available on the FamilyLife Podcast Network.\u00a0 https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Having trouble seeing eye to eye with your family? Expressing deep convictions can be challenging in many families, but Tim Muehlhoff and Rick Langer share a simple method to do so with empathy.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-07-19.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:29:32","filesize":"27.05M","filesize_raw":"28362317","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848,2821],"tags":[4299,5002],"podcast_series":[8459],"cwp_profile":[9721,3245],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306951","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","category-reaching-out","tag-faith","tag-politics","podcast_series-winsome-conviction","cwp_profile-rick-langer","cwp_profile-tim-muehlhoff","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306951\/seeing-eye-to-eye","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306951\/seeing-eye-to-eye","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"991GvzGrly\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/seeing-eye-to-eye\/\">Seeing Eye To Eye<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/seeing-eye-to-eye\/embed\/#?secret=991GvzGrly\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Seeing Eye To Eye&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"991GvzGrly\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-07-19.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-07-19.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Okay, Dave; so we\u2019re living in a culture that\u2019s more divided than it\u2019s <em>ever<\/em> been.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, yes!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Are you <em>surprised<\/em> by that?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, in some ways. I think one of my surprises would be the division in the church.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And the hostility toward one another, I think, is what\u2019s been surprising too.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, we\u2019ve seen it in our own family.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>You know, as a pastor, and just being part of the church for three decades, you would think there would be unity on most things.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s a na\u00efve assumption. You know, it\u2019s like we need direction; we need <em>guidance<\/em>; we need some <em>smart<\/em> people to help us understand\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014some men who have their doctorates!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes!\u2014like PhDs!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Have we ever had two PhDs in the studio?\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think so.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014besides ourselves?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I can hardly contain my joy and anticipation!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Have we gotten our PhDs yet?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> No.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> No; I heard they just give them out to anybody. [Laughter]\n\nWell, the truth is: PhDs are not honorary; right? We\u2019ve got Tim Muehlhoff and Rick Langer in our studio.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I mean, we\u2019ve been teasing about that; but we <em>appreciate<\/em> what you\u2019ve done.\n\nYou\u2019ve written a book called <em>Winsome Conviction.<\/em>\n\n<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; so welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\n\n<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Well, it is great to be here.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Thanks so much for letting us come and join you!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> This book\u2014I love the subtitle\u2014<em>Disagreeing Without Dividing the Church. <\/em>So we get to talk about that; and even, especially, dividing our families in our homes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Tim and Noreen have been speakers on the FamilyLife <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> team for\u2014what?\u201420\u2014\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Almost 27 years.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Both of you guys are at Biola.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, Tm had us come out, a few years ago, through your marriage and\u2014what do you call it?\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Center for Marriage and Relationships.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And Rick\u2019s out there as well. You\u2019re in biblical studies?\u2014\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014that\u2019s your degree?\u2014and theology?\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> So my PhD\u2019s in Philosophy, but I was a pastor for 20 years.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Whoa!\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> I have a background in theology as well. About 15 years ago, I went from a pastor to being a professor at Biola. I deal with the integration of faith and learning, how our faith intersects the best of human learning. It\u2019s a great thing to do at a university.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, it sure is!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And how did you guys come together to write this book?\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Tim and I worked a lot with doing classes and things like that; we co-taught various classes. One of the things we really enjoyed was thinking through some of the challenges we face. We wrote an earlier book called <em>Winsome Persuasion, <\/em>about how we communicate to the <em>non<\/em>-Christian world about Christian conviction.\n\nComing out of that, we were talking to people, as we were talking about the book; and people would say, \u201cYes, but this isn\u2019t a problem that\u2019s just out there; this is a problem within the church.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> And that\u2019s what got us thinking about this follow-up book called <em>Winsome Conviction.<\/em>\n\n<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; well, let\u2019s talk about that! I mean, even the title tells you a lot: <em>Winsome Conviction. <\/em>Define that a little bit\u2014like convictions; winsome\u2014how do we do it? Because, in some ways, that\u2019s where we get in trouble; right? We have a conviction, and we end up in a fight.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We\u2019re not always winsome.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> And, you know, Americans feel this. A national survey was done last year, and\n\n98 percent of Americans will say incivility is a problem in our country; 68 percent say it\u2019s at crisis levels; and 42 percent say, \u201cI do not feel safe sharing my perspective about politics, immigration\u2014whatever\u2014publicly.\u201d\n\nNow, we all hear that and say, \u201cWell, of course, when non-Christians talk,\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cyes, of course, incivility is going to be a big issue.\u201d But it has <em>absolutely<\/em> come into the church.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, yes!\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> I know a Christian\u2014who loves the Lord\/is in full-time Christian ministry\u2014and we had to hang up on the phone, because it just got <em>heated<\/em>. We finally just agreed to cut it off, which is a good technique we know in marriage; it\u2019s: \u201cLet\u2019s call a time out.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> And we needed to do that. That\u2019s why we wrote the book.\n\nRick\u2019s been a pastor for 20 years.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> I was an interim teaching pastor for two years at two different churches, and I got a chance to dip my big toe in it. I was shocked, Dave, just like you\u2014not that the arguments would be there\u2014but the <em>intensity<\/em> <em>and <\/em>\u201cI\u2019m not even talking to you anymore when we cross paths, going into church.\u201d We\u2019ve <em>got to <\/em>address that.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and what we\u2019ve experienced, and what you\u2019re just saying, is there are <em>topics<\/em> that we don\u2019t bring up in our family. I mean, seriously!\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> You just avoid them.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely!\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Because it\u2019s like: \u201cWe\u2019re going to hang up the phone,\u201d or \u201cWe\u2019re going to have to walk out of the room.\u201d We\u2019ve gone there enough times to know it doesn\u2019t end well.\n\nWhen I pick up your book, <em>Winsome Conviction, <\/em>I\u2019m like, \u201cMaybe we\u2019re doing this wrong. Maybe we\u2019re not winsome.\u201d Of course, we think it\u2019s <em>their<\/em> fault; it\u2019s got to be <em>their<\/em> fault! But maybe, it\u2019s <em>our<\/em> fault. Help us understand that, because that is too common. We\u2019re hanging up the phone; we\u2019re slamming down our fist; we\u2019re walking out of the room\u2014not just in the workplace\u2014but in our churches and in our <em>homes<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And let\u2019s just say this: the social media today\u2014\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Oh, totally.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014I mean, we are just <em>attacking<\/em> one another, and the church is attacking one another. It\u2019s like: \u201cWhat\u2019s the solution?\u201d\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Let me begin by just pointing out: we come up with a lot of things that we look at Christians doing badly, and we\u2019re just like the world. We\u2019ll talk about this with divorce, or with premarital sex in our teenagers, or whatever, like, \u201cOh, it shouldn\u2019t be this way!\u201d\n\nThe interesting thing with our quarrels about convictions is, in some ways, I think Christians actually have a <em>bigger<\/em> challenge when it comes to convictions in a non-Christian world. Let me explain, especially between Christians. Here\u2019s the deal: a non-Christian, who\u2019s thinking of their convictions, says, \u201cWell, what do <em>I<\/em> think about this?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> They might read this book or that book, and basically, you develop your conviction to please yourself\u2014not to, necessarily, make you happy\u2014but just what you find to be reasonable, good, and right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014to make sense of everything.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u2014to make sense of the world!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014 and: \u201cI\u2019m the end of that; I can decide.\u201d\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Yes, you are the court of appeal that it goes to.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right; right.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> So a Christian decides to form a conviction; and honestly, I don\u2019t care what <em>I<\/em> think;\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u2014I care what <em>Jesus<\/em> thinks.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> I have inconvenient convictions\/convictions I don\u2019t like, particularly.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, that\u2019s a good way to say it: \u201cinconvenient.\u201d\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> I believe in <em>hell<\/em>!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> I mean, I don\u2019t really have a <em>choice<\/em>. And there are all kinds of things I read in the Bible that I wouldn\u2019t have thought up. Many, over the course of the years, I\u2019ve learned to <em>treasure<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> I realize, \u201cOh, that was a problem that I couldn\u2019t have thought that up.\u201d But it doesn\u2019t change the fact that I\u2019m looking to please Jesus.\n\nSo if you have the audacity to have a <em>different<\/em> conviction than I do, what you\u2019re really telling me is\u2014not that you disagree with my conviction\u2014but you disagree with my vision of Jesus.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow!\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> You\u2019re telling me I got my God, whom I worship, wrong. Well, how\u2019s that going to go over?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> So you realize, \u201cMan, this up-scales significantly.\u201d We do the same thing, biblically; because we\u2019re appealing, not just to <em>a <\/em>book, but <em>the <\/em>Book\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right; absolutes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u2014a book of absolutes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> So you read your Bible and think that we should care for the poor; I read my Bible and think that we should be preaching the gospel to tribes across the world. Suddenly, we see these things differently; it\u2019s like, \u201cOh!\u201d But if you\u2019re telling me the Bible says that, and I\u2019m telling you it says something different, one or the other of us is a false prophet. You can just <em>see<\/em> the whole thing ramping up!\n\nIn my observation, this isn\u2019t an <em>indictment<\/em> of Christians; this is an <em>observation<\/em>\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u2014about the way we navigate these things. But it makes it <em>way<\/em> harder to have a disagreement about our convictions.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; so that\u2019s reality.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, we\u2019re all nodding our heads, going: \u201cOh, yes,\u201d \u201cOh, yes!\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And we do have <em>the <\/em>Book. All of us hold it in high esteem, so we want to honor the truth in that Book. So what do we do?\u2014you\u2019ve described the problem; you know? [Laughter] So here we are! We\u2019re sitting at a dinner table\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014Dr. Muehlhoff\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes! [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> We find a person, with a PhD in Communication, to solve it for you!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> You know how you have these marital disagreements; and you just go, \u201cWait a minute; that is <em>not <\/em>what I said.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u201cI just\u2026\u201d \u201cNo, you said that,\u201d or \u201cI said it, but that\u2019s not what I <em>meant<\/em>!\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cokay?\u201d\n\nOne of the things we\u2019re going to have to do is we\u2019re going to have to <em>affirm<\/em> the relationship. We\u2019re going to have to step back and say, \u201cListen; we\u2019re a married couple, and we seek first Jesus\u2019s kingdom. We\u2019re committed to Jesus\u2019s purposes\u201d. Now, what we\u2019re doing is probably ranking these differently; that\u2019s where the tension is going to be.\n\nI do think it\u2019s important to step back and say: \u201cHey, we really do like each other as co-workers,\u201d \u201cI love you as my son,\u201d or \u201c\u2026daughter,\u201d \u201cWe\u2019re just having a bona fide disagreement.\u201d We think, at the Winsome ConvictionProject, that\u2019s not always bad to have what\u2014Rick, why don\u2019t you describe a little bit\u2014what you say is an <em>authentic<\/em> disagreement.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> One of the biggest problems we have in these sorts of areas is the failure to actually achieve disagreement, because we don\u2019t really understand what the other person is saying. Until I can articulate it in a way that you nod your head and say, \u201cYep, that\u2019s it!\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> And also: \u201cYou\u2019ve captured my feeling about it.\u201d You know, if I\u2019m all <em>charged<\/em> about it\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u2014and you give me this flat statement of it\u2014it\u2019s like, \u201cNo, you haven\u2019t gotten it.\u201d\n\n\u201cCan I actually articulate the viewpoint of a person, [which] I don\u2019t know hold in a way that they say, \u2018Yes, you understand\u2019?\u201d I tell people: \u201cLook, until you can do that, you haven\u2019t actually disagreed; because <em>you<\/em> don\u2019t know what they think, and you can\u2019t disagree if you don\u2019t know what they\u2019re thinking. So <em>make<\/em> the effort to actually understand.\u201d\n\nThat involves listening\u2014often, the hardest part is actually empathizing\u2014people on the opposite side of these contentious issues, you have a hard time wanting to <em>feel<\/em> what they\u2019re feeling.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> What you find them feeling is <em>unsavory<\/em> to you.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, I was going to say\u2014because you could be listening\u2014I\u2019ve heard a lot of people\/I could say something; and they\u2019ll say, \u201cWell, that\u2019s stupid!\u201d\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Right; oh, yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Yes, so <em>listening<\/em> doesn\u2019t solve it; right? [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Exactly! And then you feel rejected, so you pull back. That animosity builds up.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> See, that\u2019s the winsome part.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> That\u2019s what we mean by \u201cwinsome.\u201d Communication is always on two levels, not one. There\u2019s the content, which would be: \u201cThat\u2019s my interpreting Jesus <em>this <\/em>way.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> But the relational level is the amount of <em>respect<\/em> between two individuals: the amount of acknowledgement and the amount of compassion.\n\nWhen Deborah Tannen, a Georgetown linguist, describes today as \u201cthe argument culture,\u201d she\u2019s <em>mostly<\/em> saying we\u2019ve <em>failed<\/em> on the <em>relational<\/em> level. Americans have <em>always<\/em> disagreed with each other.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Sure.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> The church has <em>always<\/em> had disagreements. She feels like it\u2019s a failure of acknowledgment, compassion, empathy; because\u2014you\u2019re right; people respond like, \u201cThat\u2019s stupid!\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u2014or \u201cYou\u2019ve got to vote!\u201d or\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cYou have to do this!\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cWell, no; I don\u2019t have to do anything.\u201d That\u2019s where the tension comes in.\n\nWe want to slow people down: give them a speed bump. We work with a large Christian high school in California to help teachers know how to talk about the upcoming elections\u2014this was before the election\u2014how to talk about it with themselves and with students. We came up with a four-step <em>method<\/em> when it would really get going; you know? One guy said to me, \u201cCan\u2019t I just say what I want to say?!\u201d [Laughter] It\u2019s like, \u201c<em>Yes<\/em>, but you\u2019ve got to do these four steps.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s interesting; because in marriage, people say the same thing. My friend used to say to me, \u201cI don\u2019t want to have to just put it in this beautiful little package!\u201d I said, \u201cWell, you don\u2019t <em>have to<\/em>, but you\u2019re going to <em>suffer<\/em> the consequences if you just let it all out.\u201d\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And you\u2019re saying this is true in <em>any <\/em>conflict.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Yes, yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> And there\u2019s a <em>ton<\/em> of biblical warrant.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> I mean, think about Paul\/Paul says, \u201cSpeak the truth;\u201d\u2014content\u2014\u201cdo it in love.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Peter says, \u201cYes, I want you to be ready to give a reason for the hope that is in you,\u201d\u2014content\u2014\u201cdo it will all gentleness and reverence.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Wow! I think that\u2019s fascinating! You see content\/relational everywhere in the themes of the New Testament.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, and I want to get to the four steps\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wait; give us your\u2014wait; yes, I want to hear those\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014but I also want to make one comment. When you were talking about listening\/empathy\u2014restating to me, to my satisfaction, that you heard me and you understand me\u2014that\u2019s relationship.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Oh, yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Something happens there, where you\u2019re like, \u201cOkay, I trust you.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cYou cared enough to listen well; you\u2019re even capturing my emotion. You don\u2019t agree, but you\u2019ve <em>captured<\/em> it. Okay, we have a relationship that\u2019s building.\u201d It could be a total stranger, but something\u2014right?\u2014something just sort of started\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cI\u2019m starting to trust you.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014and now we can go somewhere.\n\nBut if you don\u2019t do that, the relationship\u2019s not there; and now, we\u2019re both sort of isolated, walking away.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> But anyway, that\u2019s just a comment; because I\u2019m thinking there are couples, right now, that are <em>estranged<\/em>. Part of it is your spouse feels like you <em>never<\/em> really listened\u2014\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Oh, yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014or you could say the words back to them\u2014but you never captured how\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and it could be their <em>tone<\/em>, like [condescending voice], \u201cSo you\u2019re saying that\u2026\u201d; you know?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know why she\u2019s doing that? Because she\u2019s seen me do that a <em>thousand<\/em> times. [Laughter] She even did my look!\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> That\u2019s the problem; right? Within a marriage, they know all of your tales; so they <em>know<\/em>: \u201cOh, that\u2019s Dave\u2019s funny little smile when he\u2019s saying, \u2018I don\u2019t believe a single word you\u2019re saying\u2019\u201d; you know?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes!\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> I wouldn\u2019t know that! I don\u2019t know that about Dave,\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u2014but Ann can clear that up in a heartbeat!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> So this is a challenge: to do the thing and say, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m going to take a deep breath. I\u2019m actually going to replay it; I\u2019m going to replay it with feeling.\u201d You said it perfectly, Dave; it\u2019s what rebuilds trust\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u2014like, \u201cOkay, I hear you now.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cNow, we\u2019re going somewhere.\u201d\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u201cNow, we can take the next step.\u201d\n\nBut <em>until<\/em> you take that first step, the other person is like, \u201cYeah, I\u2019m done. I\u2019m just not taking this trip!\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> It\u2019s basically just saying, \u201cHey, here\u2019s what I heard you say. Here\u2019s what I thought\u2026\"\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, is this number one? Is this our number one?\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> This is number one.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> That\u2019s number one.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Okay; I\u2019m ready.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> So the first thing is\/just say: \u201cHere\u2019s what I heard you say\u2026\u201d\n\nThe second thing is: \u201cWhat did I agree with?\u201d <em>Almost<\/em> always, there should be some point of contact there. I won\u2019t get into quibbles about whether or not that\u2019s technically true or whatever; I\u2019m just saying, \u201cLook; lean in!\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Third thing is: \u201cWhat did you resonate with?\u201d And that\u2019s really, interestingly, <em>different<\/em> than what I <em>agree<\/em> with. For example, a person might tell you about a story about their dad, who came in as an immigrant, and all of the challenges that he faced, and all that. They\u2019re making a case for open borders sorts of immigration policy. Well, you might disagree with that policy; but you can still <em>resonate<\/em> with the feeling: \u201cWhat was it like for your dad to live in a country, as a 13-year-old, where he didn\u2019t speak the language, and didn\u2019t have a place to belong?\u201d \u201cOh, so I resonate with that\u201d; and then you get to add your part.\n\nSo first: \u201cLet me play back what I heard\u2026\u201d\n\nSecond: \u201cHere\u2019s what I agree with\u2026\u201d\n\nThird: \u201cHere\u2019s what I kind of resonate with\/what <em>struck<\/em> me\u2026\u201d\n\nAnd then, fourth: \u201cHere\u2019s what I\u2019d like to <em>add<\/em> to the conversation\u2026\u201d\n\nWe\u2019re doing this\/it became the moderator; we called it the \u201cspeed bump.\u201d What it really was\u2014was a self-moderation tool\u2014all that the people we kind of instantly appointed to be group leaders had to do was just, in effect, when a person said, \u201cI don\u2019t want to do this! I just want to respond,\u201d say, \u201cYou <em>can <\/em>respond. We let you respond <em>after<\/em> you\u2019ve said the other three things.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s really wise.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> It made them <em>pause<\/em>; opens up the opportunity for <em>hearing<\/em>.\n\nThe other thing it does is\u2014our reflex response is very emotive\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u2014this gives you a pause to let your reason kick in. Without that pause, you just [making a combustion sound]; you flame. This, basically, is a little regulator. It turns down your pilot light, so you don\u2019t ignite the gas quite so quickly.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and the thing about speed bumps\u2014for me, I hate them!\u2014[Laughter]\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Oh, yes!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014you know? It\u2019s like\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I know! We just want to go through one\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> When I see one, I <em>fly<\/em> over them. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and stuff\u2019s flying to the ceiling of the car!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> She\u2019s like, \u201cWhat are you doing?!\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWhat\u2019s this speed bump?\u201d But the truth is: they\u2019re needed.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> They\u2019re needed.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> They protect the neighborhood.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes, yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> They protect\u2014like you said, it\u2019s like, \u201cI don\u2019t always want to do this, but I need to.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014relationships.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So I\u2019d like you to do this: apply the speed bump\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I was going to say that.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Okay, let her go.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Give it\/like will you give us an example?\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> I\u2019ll do my position. I came up with this\u2014and again, we should say this right away\u2014\u201cThe views represented here do not necessarily represent those of Biola University.\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014or <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>\n\n<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014or FamilyLife.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cor FamilyLife.\u201d\n\nOkay; so I did not vote for President [of the U.S.].\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You voted but not for President.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> I voted for the down ticket\u2014all the props; all that kind of stuff\u2014but when it came to President, I felt I was stewarding my vote by not giving it.\n\n[People\u2019s reaction to this]\u2014like: \u201cIf you\u2019re too lazy to vote, shame on you.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u201cPeople died for your right to vote.\u201d \u201cBut people died for my right to <em>steward<\/em> my vote. And I simply don\u2019t think\u201d\u2014this is just me\u2014\u201cthese two candidates: I just couldn\u2019t vote for either for different kinds of reasons. I purposefully offered a non-vote\u201d; because, to me, the narrative will never change if we just: \u201cWell, I\u2019m locked into two parties; I have to vote.\u201d \u201cNo, you don\u2019t <em>have to<\/em> vote; you have to <em>steward<\/em> your vote.\u201d\n\nBelieve it or not, there are a bazillion people, who disagree with that and actually have gotten mad at me. So Rick\u2014\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> So if Tim were to just <em>say<\/em> that, let me just give my <em>flame<\/em> response.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Oh, great!\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> If random-shot Tim floats this by me, I go, \u201c<em>Tim<\/em>, if you don\u2019t vote, no one knows; your vote just simply <em>vanishes<\/em>! It\u2019s <em>great<\/em> to say, \u2018Hey, my rhetorical strategy is to withhold my vote,\u2019 but no one knows that you withheld it! It\u2019s like saying, \u2018I\u2019m not going to say this on Twitter,\u2019 and you don\u2019t even have a Twitter account! No one knows that you\u2019re not saying anything!! You\u2019ve conveyed <em>nothing<\/em>.\u201d\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> That would tick me off!\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Here we go.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u2014because, one, the <em>tone<\/em>\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u2014like did you notice that?\u2014like\/well, then you\u2014\u201cBlah, blah, blah.\u201d And Rick and I are friends; but if I got hit with that, right out of the gates, that just won\u2019t work.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> So let me wind it back;\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Okay.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u2014option two is to say:\n\nOkay, Tim; I think I hear what you\u2019re saying on this thing. Partly, you\u2019re <em>frustrated<\/em>; because you feel like you <em>can\u2019t<\/em> vote for either of the two viable candidates we have. And presumably, if you voted for a third-party, that\u2019s as good as wasting something <em>or<\/em> you\u2019re actually <em>endorsing<\/em> something you actually disagree with, because you don\u2019t favor the third party either. So you\u2019re feeling <em>trapped<\/em> with this thing.\n\nI kind of <em>agree<\/em> with you on that point. I don\u2019t feel really comfortable with <em>either<\/em> of these candidates either, so I\u2019m feeling that.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> There\u2019s your resonating; you\u2019re resonating with him.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> The other thing I was going to say is\u2014\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> That\u2019s the <em>agreeing<\/em> part; he\u2019s <em>agreeing<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> I\u2019m agreeing right now.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> And here\u2019s the thing; I said:\n\nHonestly, Tim, I have lost sleep over this matter; so I hear you.\n\nBut let me say what I\u2019d like to add on this topic. I understand that you just <em>don\u2019t<\/em> want to vote; but the bottom line is\u2014you know, ahead of time\u2014one person or the other is <em>going to <\/em>become President. Why not, at least, make the effort to tip it in the direction of whomever you feel is best? Your silence just doesn\u2019t end up counting.\n\nThat\u2019s what I\u2019m going to do; I\u2019m going to go ahead and vote for a candidate that I find less objectionable.\n\nNow, quick point on that: notice, we have a vivid disagreement at the end. This is why we don\u2019t just say <em>Winsome Kumbaya<\/em> as a name\u2014[Laughter]\u2014but rather, <em>Winsome Conviction<\/em>\u2014because we do not want to do <em>anything<\/em> to dismantle conviction!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> If anything, I worry that we live in the \u201cwhatever\u201d generation.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And what you have done, by creating a speed bump, is you\u2019ve taken the fists down; because you\u2019re ready for a fight, but you\u2019ve come at it as a person of peace. The fists go down, and you\u2019re willing to hear.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> But it won\u2019t work if <em>I<\/em> ignore it. Now, we\u2019re going to respond.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Now, this is a conversation, not a debate, where it\u2019s timed and my response\/your response. I\u2019m going to respond to what Rick just said.\n\nBut if I toss out the method\u2014and just say, \u201cNo! I totally disagree that my vote disappeared. Are you kidding me?!\u201d\u2014now, we\u2019re back\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014you\u2019re back\u2014\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u2014to the argument culture. <em>I<\/em> have to force <em>myself<\/em> to go: \u201cSpeed bump,\u201d \u201cSpeed bump.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> [In response to Rick] \u201cOkay, here\u2019s what I\u2019m hearing you say\u2026\u201d; right? Then I do it, and he throws the ball back to me; I throw it back to him, and you just keep in this.\n\nNow, we feel like it\u2019s learning how to play scales on a piano. But a good jazz musician, at the end\/he just plays. So after a while, we hope that this becomes\u2014in a marriage\/with your kids\u2014this becomes just the normal part; and now, we can kind of mentally go through instead of: \u201cOne, I\u2019ve got to say what he said,\u201d \u201cTwo: resonate\u201d; right? [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, yes.\n\n<strong>Tim: <\/strong>Hopefully, it becomes like jazz.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, and as I\u2019m listening to you, I\u2019m thinking, \u201cOh, it\u2019s the fruit of the Spirit; it\u2019s Galatians!\u2014it\u2019s love, joy; it\u2019s peace, patience, kindness\u2014like if we would apply these\u2014goodness, faithfulness, and self-control.\u201d\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I would just end with this: \u201cI can picture homes, all around the country, listening to this broadcast and having different conversations tonight in their family room. As parents, say, \u2018Here, let me teach my kids how to do a speed bump,\u2019\u2014modeling\u2014\u2018Let\u2019s have a winsome conversation,\u2019\u2014not throw our convictions away and our really strong, passionate beliefs; but hold onto those\u2014\u2018and let\u2019s dialogue.\u2019\u201d\n\nI mean, that can change a marriage. I mean, you just modeled, obviously, what the Bible would teach about how to resolve a conflict: \u201cIt\u2019s like this\u2026\u201d And it can be winsome; doesn\u2019t mean it\u2019s not hard!\u2014\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014doesn\u2019t mean it might not get really ugly! You might have to walk out of the room and, you know, bring that speed bump back in and start over\u2014[Laughter]\u2014right?\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, that\u2019s where it\u2019s got to be. We\u2019ve got to be honest. But man, if couples are doing that\/families are doing that, then I have hope!\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Me too.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, you\u2019ve brought hope into this room. Way to go, seriously!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Thanks, you guys, for being with us today.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Our pleasure!\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I am thinking\u2014maybe you are, too\u2014\u2014about conversations I\u2019ve had in recent days, where a speed bump would have helped slow things down: de-escalate a situation; have a more reasonable interaction and conversation. That starts with <em>us<\/em> being committed to have a more <em>winsome<\/em> conversation.\n\nTim Muehlhoff and Rick Langer have joined us today to talk about a book they\u2019ve written called <em>Winsome Conviction: Disagreeing Without Dividing the Church. <\/em>It\u2019s a book we\u2019ve got in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center. You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to get more information about the book. You can order it from us online; or you can call to order: 1-800-FL-TODAY is our number. Again, the title of the book is <em>Winsome Conviction: Disagreeing Without Dividing the Church. <\/em>Order it online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or order by calling 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800\u201d-F\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nOur goal, here, at FamilyLife is to provide for you practical biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family\/conversations like the one we\u2019ve listened to today. These are conversations that need to be had so that we can\u2014all of us\u2014<em>grow<\/em> in our ability to love well the people in our lives.\n\nAs listeners, you help make all of this possible when you move beyond just listening and partner with us to help extend the outreach of <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>We\u2019re reaching hundreds of thousands of people every day through this radio program, through our podcasts, our online resources, our events. All of those are fueled by listeners, like you, to help extend that reach; so that more people can receive practical biblical help and hope. All you have to do is go online or pick up a phone and say, \u201cI want to help,\u201d and make a donation.\n\nWhen you do that, we\u2019d love to send you, as a thank-you gift, a copy of Arlene Pellicane\u2019s book, <em>Screen Kids. <\/em>It\u2019s going to help moms and dads know how to wisely navigate some of the challenges that come along with kids having four-inch screens available to them throughout the day. The book, <em>Screen Kids, <\/em>is our thank-you gift to you when you make a donation today. Again, you can do that online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. And thanks, in advance, for partnering with us in helping extend the reach of <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>to more and more people.\n\nWe hope you can join us, again, tomorrow. Rick Langer and Tim Muehlhoff will be here again. We\u2019re going to hear about what the Bible says in Romans 14 about how we can have personal convictions, but we need to be careful that we don\u2019t turn those into absolute truth for <em>everybody<\/em>. That\u2019s a tricky thing to manage, and we\u2019ll hear more about that tomorrow. I hope you can join us for that.\n\nOn behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.\n\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. 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trouble seeing eye to eye with your family? Expressing deep convictions can be challenging in many families, but Tim Muehlhoff and Rick Langer share a simple method to do so with empathy.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-07-19.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Okay, Dave; so we\u2019re living in a culture that\u2019s more divided than it\u2019s <em>ever<\/em> been.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, yes!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Are you <em>surprised<\/em> by that?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, in some ways. I think one of my surprises would be the division in the church.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And the hostility toward one another, I think, is what\u2019s been surprising too.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, we\u2019ve seen it in our own family.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>You know, as a pastor, and just being part of the church for three decades, you would think there would be unity on most things.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s a na\u00efve assumption. You know, it\u2019s like we need direction; we need <em>guidance<\/em>; we need some <em>smart<\/em> people to help us understand\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014some men who have their doctorates!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes!\u2014like PhDs!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Have we ever had two PhDs in the studio?\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think so.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014besides ourselves?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I can hardly contain my joy and anticipation!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Have we gotten our PhDs yet?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> No.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> No; I heard they just give them out to anybody. [Laughter]\n\nWell, the truth is: PhDs are not honorary; right? We\u2019ve got Tim Muehlhoff and Rick Langer in our studio.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I mean, we\u2019ve been teasing about that; but we <em>appreciate<\/em> what you\u2019ve done.\n\nYou\u2019ve written a book called <em>Winsome Conviction.<\/em>\n\n<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; so welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\n\n<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Well, it is great to be here.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Thanks so much for letting us come and join you!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> This book\u2014I love the subtitle\u2014<em>Disagreeing Without Dividing the Church. <\/em>So we get to talk about that; and even, especially, dividing our families in our homes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Tim and Noreen have been speakers on the FamilyLife <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> team for\u2014what?\u201420\u2014\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Almost 27 years.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Both of you guys are at Biola.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, Tm had us come out, a few years ago, through your marriage and\u2014what do you call it?\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Center for Marriage and Relationships.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And Rick\u2019s out there as well. You\u2019re in biblical studies?\u2014\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014that\u2019s your degree?\u2014and theology?\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> So my PhD\u2019s in Philosophy, but I was a pastor for 20 years.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Whoa!\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> I have a background in theology as well. About 15 years ago, I went from a pastor to being a professor at Biola. I deal with the integration of faith and learning, how our faith intersects the best of human learning. It\u2019s a great thing to do at a university.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, it sure is!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And how did you guys come together to write this book?\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Tim and I worked a lot with doing classes and things like that; we co-taught various classes. One of the things we really enjoyed was thinking through some of the challenges we face. We wrote an earlier book called <em>Winsome Persuasion, <\/em>about how we communicate to the <em>non<\/em>-Christian world about Christian conviction.\n\nComing out of that, we were talking to people, as we were talking about the book; and people would say, \u201cYes, but this isn\u2019t a problem that\u2019s just out there; this is a problem within the church.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> And that\u2019s what got us thinking about this follow-up book called <em>Winsome Conviction.<\/em>\n\n<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; well, let\u2019s talk about that! I mean, even the title tells you a lot: <em>Winsome Conviction. <\/em>Define that a little bit\u2014like convictions; winsome\u2014how do we do it? Because, in some ways, that\u2019s where we get in trouble; right? We have a conviction, and we end up in a fight.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We\u2019re not always winsome.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> And, you know, Americans feel this. A national survey was done last year, and\n\n98 percent of Americans will say incivility is a problem in our country; 68 percent say it\u2019s at crisis levels; and 42 percent say, \u201cI do not feel safe sharing my perspective about politics, immigration\u2014whatever\u2014publicly.\u201d\n\nNow, we all hear that and say, \u201cWell, of course, when non-Christians talk,\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cyes, of course, incivility is going to be a big issue.\u201d But it has <em>absolutely<\/em> come into the church.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, yes!\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> I know a Christian\u2014who loves the Lord\/is in full-time Christian ministry\u2014and we had to hang up on the phone, because it just got <em>heated<\/em>. We finally just agreed to cut it off, which is a good technique we know in marriage; it\u2019s: \u201cLet\u2019s call a time out.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> And we needed to do that. That\u2019s why we wrote the book.\n\nRick\u2019s been a pastor for 20 years.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> I was an interim teaching pastor for two years at two different churches, and I got a chance to dip my big toe in it. I was shocked, Dave, just like you\u2014not that the arguments would be there\u2014but the <em>intensity<\/em> <em>and <\/em>\u201cI\u2019m not even talking to you anymore when we cross paths, going into church.\u201d We\u2019ve <em>got to <\/em>address that.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and what we\u2019ve experienced, and what you\u2019re just saying, is there are <em>topics<\/em> that we don\u2019t bring up in our family. I mean, seriously!\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> You just avoid them.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely!\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Because it\u2019s like: \u201cWe\u2019re going to hang up the phone,\u201d or \u201cWe\u2019re going to have to walk out of the room.\u201d We\u2019ve gone there enough times to know it doesn\u2019t end well.\n\nWhen I pick up your book, <em>Winsome Conviction, <\/em>I\u2019m like, \u201cMaybe we\u2019re doing this wrong. Maybe we\u2019re not winsome.\u201d Of course, we think it\u2019s <em>their<\/em> fault; it\u2019s got to be <em>their<\/em> fault! But maybe, it\u2019s <em>our<\/em> fault. Help us understand that, because that is too common. We\u2019re hanging up the phone; we\u2019re slamming down our fist; we\u2019re walking out of the room\u2014not just in the workplace\u2014but in our churches and in our <em>homes<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And let\u2019s just say this: the social media today\u2014\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Oh, totally.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014I mean, we are just <em>attacking<\/em> one another, and the church is attacking one another. It\u2019s like: \u201cWhat\u2019s the solution?\u201d\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Let me begin by just pointing out: we come up with a lot of things that we look at Christians doing badly, and we\u2019re just like the world. We\u2019ll talk about this with divorce, or with premarital sex in our teenagers, or whatever, like, \u201cOh, it shouldn\u2019t be this way!\u201d\n\nThe interesting thing with our quarrels about convictions is, in some ways, I think Christians actually have a <em>bigger<\/em> challenge when it comes to convictions in a non-Christian world. Let me explain, especially between Christians. Here\u2019s the deal: a non-Christian, who\u2019s thinking of their convictions, says, \u201cWell, what do <em>I<\/em> think about this?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> They might read this book or that book, and basically, you develop your conviction to please yourself\u2014not to, necessarily, make you happy\u2014but just what you find to be reasonable, good, and right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014to make sense of everything.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u2014to make sense of the world!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014 and: \u201cI\u2019m the end of that; I can decide.\u201d\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Yes, you are the court of appeal that it goes to.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right; right.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> So a Christian decides to form a conviction; and honestly, I don\u2019t care what <em>I<\/em> think;\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u2014I care what <em>Jesus<\/em> thinks.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> I have inconvenient convictions\/convictions I don\u2019t like, particularly.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, that\u2019s a good way to say it: \u201cinconvenient.\u201d\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> I believe in <em>hell<\/em>!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> I mean, I don\u2019t really have a <em>choice<\/em>. And there are all kinds of things I read in the Bible that I wouldn\u2019t have thought up. Many, over the course of the years, I\u2019ve learned to <em>treasure<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> I realize, \u201cOh, that was a problem that I couldn\u2019t have thought that up.\u201d But it doesn\u2019t change the fact that I\u2019m looking to please Jesus.\n\nSo if you have the audacity to have a <em>different<\/em> conviction than I do, what you\u2019re really telling me is\u2014not that you disagree with my conviction\u2014but you disagree with my vision of Jesus.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow!\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> You\u2019re telling me I got my God, whom I worship, wrong. Well, how\u2019s that going to go over?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> So you realize, \u201cMan, this up-scales significantly.\u201d We do the same thing, biblically; because we\u2019re appealing, not just to <em>a <\/em>book, but <em>the <\/em>Book\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right; absolutes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u2014a book of absolutes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> So you read your Bible and think that we should care for the poor; I read my Bible and think that we should be preaching the gospel to tribes across the world. Suddenly, we see these things differently; it\u2019s like, \u201cOh!\u201d But if you\u2019re telling me the Bible says that, and I\u2019m telling you it says something different, one or the other of us is a false prophet. You can just <em>see<\/em> the whole thing ramping up!\n\nIn my observation, this isn\u2019t an <em>indictment<\/em> of Christians; this is an <em>observation<\/em>\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u2014about the way we navigate these things. But it makes it <em>way<\/em> harder to have a disagreement about our convictions.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; so that\u2019s reality.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, we\u2019re all nodding our heads, going: \u201cOh, yes,\u201d \u201cOh, yes!\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And we do have <em>the <\/em>Book. All of us hold it in high esteem, so we want to honor the truth in that Book. So what do we do?\u2014you\u2019ve described the problem; you know? [Laughter] So here we are! We\u2019re sitting at a dinner table\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014Dr. Muehlhoff\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes! [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> We find a person, with a PhD in Communication, to solve it for you!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> You know how you have these marital disagreements; and you just go, \u201cWait a minute; that is <em>not <\/em>what I said.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u201cI just\u2026\u201d \u201cNo, you said that,\u201d or \u201cI said it, but that\u2019s not what I <em>meant<\/em>!\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cokay?\u201d\n\nOne of the things we\u2019re going to have to do is we\u2019re going to have to <em>affirm<\/em> the relationship. We\u2019re going to have to step back and say, \u201cListen; we\u2019re a married couple, and we seek first Jesus\u2019s kingdom. We\u2019re committed to Jesus\u2019s purposes\u201d. Now, what we\u2019re doing is probably ranking these differently; that\u2019s where the tension is going to be.\n\nI do think it\u2019s important to step back and say: \u201cHey, we really do like each other as co-workers,\u201d \u201cI love you as my son,\u201d or \u201c\u2026daughter,\u201d \u201cWe\u2019re just having a bona fide disagreement.\u201d We think, at the Winsome ConvictionProject, that\u2019s not always bad to have what\u2014Rick, why don\u2019t you describe a little bit\u2014what you say is an <em>authentic<\/em> disagreement.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> One of the biggest problems we have in these sorts of areas is the failure to actually achieve disagreement, because we don\u2019t really understand what the other person is saying. Until I can articulate it in a way that you nod your head and say, \u201cYep, that\u2019s it!\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> And also: \u201cYou\u2019ve captured my feeling about it.\u201d You know, if I\u2019m all <em>charged<\/em> about it\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u2014and you give me this flat statement of it\u2014it\u2019s like, \u201cNo, you haven\u2019t gotten it.\u201d\n\n\u201cCan I actually articulate the viewpoint of a person, [which] I don\u2019t know hold in a way that they say, \u2018Yes, you understand\u2019?\u201d I tell people: \u201cLook, until you can do that, you haven\u2019t actually disagreed; because <em>you<\/em> don\u2019t know what they think, and you can\u2019t disagree if you don\u2019t know what they\u2019re thinking. So <em>make<\/em> the effort to actually understand.\u201d\n\nThat involves listening\u2014often, the hardest part is actually empathizing\u2014people on the opposite side of these contentious issues, you have a hard time wanting to <em>feel<\/em> what they\u2019re feeling.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> What you find them feeling is <em>unsavory<\/em> to you.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, I was going to say\u2014because you could be listening\u2014I\u2019ve heard a lot of people\/I could say something; and they\u2019ll say, \u201cWell, that\u2019s stupid!\u201d\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Right; oh, yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Yes, so <em>listening<\/em> doesn\u2019t solve it; right? [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Exactly! And then you feel rejected, so you pull back. That animosity builds up.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> See, that\u2019s the winsome part.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> That\u2019s what we mean by \u201cwinsome.\u201d Communication is always on two levels, not one. There\u2019s the content, which would be: \u201cThat\u2019s my interpreting Jesus <em>this <\/em>way.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> But the relational level is the amount of <em>respect<\/em> between two individuals: the amount of acknowledgement and the amount of compassion.\n\nWhen Deborah Tannen, a Georgetown linguist, describes today as \u201cthe argument culture,\u201d she\u2019s <em>mostly<\/em> saying we\u2019ve <em>failed<\/em> on the <em>relational<\/em> level. Americans have <em>always<\/em> disagreed with each other.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Sure.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> The church has <em>always<\/em> had disagreements. She feels like it\u2019s a failure of acknowledgment, compassion, empathy; because\u2014you\u2019re right; people respond like, \u201cThat\u2019s stupid!\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u2014or \u201cYou\u2019ve got to vote!\u201d or\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cYou have to do this!\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cWell, no; I don\u2019t have to do anything.\u201d That\u2019s where the tension comes in.\n\nWe want to slow people down: give them a speed bump. We work with a large Christian high school in California to help teachers know how to talk about the upcoming elections\u2014this was before the election\u2014how to talk about it with themselves and with students. We came up with a four-step <em>method<\/em> when it would really get going; you know? One guy said to me, \u201cCan\u2019t I just say what I want to say?!\u201d [Laughter] It\u2019s like, \u201c<em>Yes<\/em>, but you\u2019ve got to do these four steps.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s interesting; because in marriage, people say the same thing. My friend used to say to me, \u201cI don\u2019t want to have to just put it in this beautiful little package!\u201d I said, \u201cWell, you don\u2019t <em>have to<\/em>, but you\u2019re going to <em>suffer<\/em> the consequences if you just let it all out.\u201d\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And you\u2019re saying this is true in <em>any <\/em>conflict.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Yes, yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> And there\u2019s a <em>ton<\/em> of biblical warrant.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> I mean, think about Paul\/Paul says, \u201cSpeak the truth;\u201d\u2014content\u2014\u201cdo it in love.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Peter says, \u201cYes, I want you to be ready to give a reason for the hope that is in you,\u201d\u2014content\u2014\u201cdo it will all gentleness and reverence.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Wow! I think that\u2019s fascinating! You see content\/relational everywhere in the themes of the New Testament.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, and I want to get to the four steps\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wait; give us your\u2014wait; yes, I want to hear those\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014but I also want to make one comment. When you were talking about listening\/empathy\u2014restating to me, to my satisfaction, that you heard me and you understand me\u2014that\u2019s relationship.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Oh, yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Something happens there, where you\u2019re like, \u201cOkay, I trust you.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cYou cared enough to listen well; you\u2019re even capturing my emotion. You don\u2019t agree, but you\u2019ve <em>captured<\/em> it. Okay, we have a relationship that\u2019s building.\u201d It could be a total stranger, but something\u2014right?\u2014something just sort of started\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cI\u2019m starting to trust you.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014and now we can go somewhere.\n\nBut if you don\u2019t do that, the relationship\u2019s not there; and now, we\u2019re both sort of isolated, walking away.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> But anyway, that\u2019s just a comment; because I\u2019m thinking there are couples, right now, that are <em>estranged<\/em>. Part of it is your spouse feels like you <em>never<\/em> really listened\u2014\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Oh, yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014or you could say the words back to them\u2014but you never captured how\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and it could be their <em>tone<\/em>, like [condescending voice], \u201cSo you\u2019re saying that\u2026\u201d; you know?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know why she\u2019s doing that? Because she\u2019s seen me do that a <em>thousand<\/em> times. [Laughter] She even did my look!\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> That\u2019s the problem; right? Within a marriage, they know all of your tales; so they <em>know<\/em>: \u201cOh, that\u2019s Dave\u2019s funny little smile when he\u2019s saying, \u2018I don\u2019t believe a single word you\u2019re saying\u2019\u201d; you know?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes!\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> I wouldn\u2019t know that! I don\u2019t know that about Dave,\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u2014but Ann can clear that up in a heartbeat!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> So this is a challenge: to do the thing and say, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m going to take a deep breath. I\u2019m actually going to replay it; I\u2019m going to replay it with feeling.\u201d You said it perfectly, Dave; it\u2019s what rebuilds trust\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u2014like, \u201cOkay, I hear you now.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cNow, we\u2019re going somewhere.\u201d\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u201cNow, we can take the next step.\u201d\n\nBut <em>until<\/em> you take that first step, the other person is like, \u201cYeah, I\u2019m done. I\u2019m just not taking this trip!\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> It\u2019s basically just saying, \u201cHey, here\u2019s what I heard you say. Here\u2019s what I thought\u2026\"\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, is this number one? Is this our number one?\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> This is number one.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> That\u2019s number one.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Okay; I\u2019m ready.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> So the first thing is\/just say: \u201cHere\u2019s what I heard you say\u2026\u201d\n\nThe second thing is: \u201cWhat did I agree with?\u201d <em>Almost<\/em> always, there should be some point of contact there. I won\u2019t get into quibbles about whether or not that\u2019s technically true or whatever; I\u2019m just saying, \u201cLook; lean in!\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Third thing is: \u201cWhat did you resonate with?\u201d And that\u2019s really, interestingly, <em>different<\/em> than what I <em>agree<\/em> with. For example, a person might tell you about a story about their dad, who came in as an immigrant, and all of the challenges that he faced, and all that. They\u2019re making a case for open borders sorts of immigration policy. Well, you might disagree with that policy; but you can still <em>resonate<\/em> with the feeling: \u201cWhat was it like for your dad to live in a country, as a 13-year-old, where he didn\u2019t speak the language, and didn\u2019t have a place to belong?\u201d \u201cOh, so I resonate with that\u201d; and then you get to add your part.\n\nSo first: \u201cLet me play back what I heard\u2026\u201d\n\nSecond: \u201cHere\u2019s what I agree with\u2026\u201d\n\nThird: \u201cHere\u2019s what I kind of resonate with\/what <em>struck<\/em> me\u2026\u201d\n\nAnd then, fourth: \u201cHere\u2019s what I\u2019d like to <em>add<\/em> to the conversation\u2026\u201d\n\nWe\u2019re doing this\/it became the moderator; we called it the \u201cspeed bump.\u201d What it really was\u2014was a self-moderation tool\u2014all that the people we kind of instantly appointed to be group leaders had to do was just, in effect, when a person said, \u201cI don\u2019t want to do this! I just want to respond,\u201d say, \u201cYou <em>can <\/em>respond. We let you respond <em>after<\/em> you\u2019ve said the other three things.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s really wise.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> It made them <em>pause<\/em>; opens up the opportunity for <em>hearing<\/em>.\n\nThe other thing it does is\u2014our reflex response is very emotive\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u2014this gives you a pause to let your reason kick in. Without that pause, you just [making a combustion sound]; you flame. This, basically, is a little regulator. It turns down your pilot light, so you don\u2019t ignite the gas quite so quickly.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and the thing about speed bumps\u2014for me, I hate them!\u2014[Laughter]\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Oh, yes!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014you know? It\u2019s like\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I know! We just want to go through one\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> When I see one, I <em>fly<\/em> over them. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and stuff\u2019s flying to the ceiling of the car!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> She\u2019s like, \u201cWhat are you doing?!\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWhat\u2019s this speed bump?\u201d But the truth is: they\u2019re needed.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> They\u2019re needed.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> They protect the neighborhood.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes, yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> They protect\u2014like you said, it\u2019s like, \u201cI don\u2019t always want to do this, but I need to.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014relationships.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So I\u2019d like you to do this: apply the speed bump\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I was going to say that.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Okay, let her go.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Give it\/like will you give us an example?\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> I\u2019ll do my position. I came up with this\u2014and again, we should say this right away\u2014\u201cThe views represented here do not necessarily represent those of Biola University.\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014or <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>\n\n<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014or FamilyLife.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cor FamilyLife.\u201d\n\nOkay; so I did not vote for President [of the U.S.].\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You voted but not for President.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> I voted for the down ticket\u2014all the props; all that kind of stuff\u2014but when it came to President, I felt I was stewarding my vote by not giving it.\n\n[People\u2019s reaction to this]\u2014like: \u201cIf you\u2019re too lazy to vote, shame on you.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u201cPeople died for your right to vote.\u201d \u201cBut people died for my right to <em>steward<\/em> my vote. And I simply don\u2019t think\u201d\u2014this is just me\u2014\u201cthese two candidates: I just couldn\u2019t vote for either for different kinds of reasons. I purposefully offered a non-vote\u201d; because, to me, the narrative will never change if we just: \u201cWell, I\u2019m locked into two parties; I have to vote.\u201d \u201cNo, you don\u2019t <em>have to<\/em> vote; you have to <em>steward<\/em> your vote.\u201d\n\nBelieve it or not, there are a bazillion people, who disagree with that and actually have gotten mad at me. So Rick\u2014\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> So if Tim were to just <em>say<\/em> that, let me just give my <em>flame<\/em> response.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Oh, great!\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> If random-shot Tim floats this by me, I go, \u201c<em>Tim<\/em>, if you don\u2019t vote, no one knows; your vote just simply <em>vanishes<\/em>! It\u2019s <em>great<\/em> to say, \u2018Hey, my rhetorical strategy is to withhold my vote,\u2019 but no one knows that you withheld it! It\u2019s like saying, \u2018I\u2019m not going to say this on Twitter,\u2019 and you don\u2019t even have a Twitter account! No one knows that you\u2019re not saying anything!! You\u2019ve conveyed <em>nothing<\/em>.\u201d\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> That would tick me off!\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Here we go.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u2014because, one, the <em>tone<\/em>\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u2014like did you notice that?\u2014like\/well, then you\u2014\u201cBlah, blah, blah.\u201d And Rick and I are friends; but if I got hit with that, right out of the gates, that just won\u2019t work.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> So let me wind it back;\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Okay.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> \u2014option two is to say:\n\nOkay, Tim; I think I hear what you\u2019re saying on this thing. Partly, you\u2019re <em>frustrated<\/em>; because you feel like you <em>can\u2019t<\/em> vote for either of the two viable candidates we have. And presumably, if you voted for a third-party, that\u2019s as good as wasting something <em>or<\/em> you\u2019re actually <em>endorsing<\/em> something you actually disagree with, because you don\u2019t favor the third party either. So you\u2019re feeling <em>trapped<\/em> with this thing.\n\nI kind of <em>agree<\/em> with you on that point. I don\u2019t feel really comfortable with <em>either<\/em> of these candidates either, so I\u2019m feeling that.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> There\u2019s your resonating; you\u2019re resonating with him.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> The other thing I was going to say is\u2014\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> That\u2019s the <em>agreeing<\/em> part; he\u2019s <em>agreeing<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> I\u2019m agreeing right now.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> And here\u2019s the thing; I said:\n\nHonestly, Tim, I have lost sleep over this matter; so I hear you.\n\nBut let me say what I\u2019d like to add on this topic. I understand that you just <em>don\u2019t<\/em> want to vote; but the bottom line is\u2014you know, ahead of time\u2014one person or the other is <em>going to <\/em>become President. Why not, at least, make the effort to tip it in the direction of whomever you feel is best? Your silence just doesn\u2019t end up counting.\n\nThat\u2019s what I\u2019m going to do; I\u2019m going to go ahead and vote for a candidate that I find less objectionable.\n\nNow, quick point on that: notice, we have a vivid disagreement at the end. This is why we don\u2019t just say <em>Winsome Kumbaya<\/em> as a name\u2014[Laughter]\u2014but rather, <em>Winsome Conviction<\/em>\u2014because we do not want to do <em>anything<\/em> to dismantle conviction!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> If anything, I worry that we live in the \u201cwhatever\u201d generation.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And what you have done, by creating a speed bump, is you\u2019ve taken the fists down; because you\u2019re ready for a fight, but you\u2019ve come at it as a person of peace. The fists go down, and you\u2019re willing to hear.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> But it won\u2019t work if <em>I<\/em> ignore it. Now, we\u2019re going to respond.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Now, this is a conversation, not a debate, where it\u2019s timed and my response\/your response. I\u2019m going to respond to what Rick just said.\n\nBut if I toss out the method\u2014and just say, \u201cNo! I totally disagree that my vote disappeared. Are you kidding me?!\u201d\u2014now, we\u2019re back\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014you\u2019re back\u2014\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> \u2014to the argument culture. <em>I<\/em> have to force <em>myself<\/em> to go: \u201cSpeed bump,\u201d \u201cSpeed bump.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> [In response to Rick] \u201cOkay, here\u2019s what I\u2019m hearing you say\u2026\u201d; right? Then I do it, and he throws the ball back to me; I throw it back to him, and you just keep in this.\n\nNow, we feel like it\u2019s learning how to play scales on a piano. But a good jazz musician, at the end\/he just plays. So after a while, we hope that this becomes\u2014in a marriage\/with your kids\u2014this becomes just the normal part; and now, we can kind of mentally go through instead of: \u201cOne, I\u2019ve got to say what he said,\u201d \u201cTwo: resonate\u201d; right? [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, yes.\n\n<strong>Tim: <\/strong>Hopefully, it becomes like jazz.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, and as I\u2019m listening to you, I\u2019m thinking, \u201cOh, it\u2019s the fruit of the Spirit; it\u2019s Galatians!\u2014it\u2019s love, joy; it\u2019s peace, patience, kindness\u2014like if we would apply these\u2014goodness, faithfulness, and self-control.\u201d\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I would just end with this: \u201cI can picture homes, all around the country, listening to this broadcast and having different conversations tonight in their family room. As parents, say, \u2018Here, let me teach my kids how to do a speed bump,\u2019\u2014modeling\u2014\u2018Let\u2019s have a winsome conversation,\u2019\u2014not throw our convictions away and our really strong, passionate beliefs; but hold onto those\u2014\u2018and let\u2019s dialogue.\u2019\u201d\n\nI mean, that can change a marriage. I mean, you just modeled, obviously, what the Bible would teach about how to resolve a conflict: \u201cIt\u2019s like this\u2026\u201d And it can be winsome; doesn\u2019t mean it\u2019s not hard!\u2014\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014doesn\u2019t mean it might not get really ugly! You might have to walk out of the room and, you know, bring that speed bump back in and start over\u2014[Laughter]\u2014right?\n\n<strong>Rick:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, that\u2019s where it\u2019s got to be. We\u2019ve got to be honest. But man, if couples are doing that\/families are doing that, then I have hope!\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Me too.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, you\u2019ve brought hope into this room. Way to go, seriously!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Thanks, you guys, for being with us today.\n\n<strong>Tim:<\/strong> Our pleasure!\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I am thinking\u2014maybe you are, too\u2014\u2014about conversations I\u2019ve had in recent days, where a speed bump would have helped slow things down: de-escalate a situation; have a more reasonable interaction and conversation. That starts with <em>us<\/em> being committed to have a more <em>winsome<\/em> conversation.\n\nTim Muehlhoff and Rick Langer have joined us today to talk about a book they\u2019ve written called <em>Winsome Conviction: Disagreeing Without Dividing the Church. <\/em>It\u2019s a book we\u2019ve got in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center. You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to get more information about the book. You can order it from us online; or you can call to order: 1-800-FL-TODAY is our number. Again, the title of the book is <em>Winsome Conviction: Disagreeing Without Dividing the Church. <\/em>Order it online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or order by calling 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800\u201d-F\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nOur goal, here, at FamilyLife is to provide for you practical biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family\/conversations like the one we\u2019ve listened to today. These are conversations that need to be had so that we can\u2014all of us\u2014<em>grow<\/em> in our ability to love well the people in our lives.\n\nAs listeners, you help make all of this possible when you move beyond just listening and partner with us to help extend the outreach of <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>We\u2019re reaching hundreds of thousands of people every day through this radio program, through our podcasts, our online resources, our events. All of those are fueled by listeners, like you, to help extend that reach; so that more people can receive practical biblical help and hope. All you have to do is go online or pick up a phone and say, \u201cI want to help,\u201d and make a donation.\n\nWhen you do that, we\u2019d love to send you, as a thank-you gift, a copy of Arlene Pellicane\u2019s book, <em>Screen Kids. <\/em>It\u2019s going to help moms and dads know how to wisely navigate some of the challenges that come along with kids having four-inch screens available to them throughout the day. The book, <em>Screen Kids, <\/em>is our thank-you gift to you when you make a donation today. Again, you can do that online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. And thanks, in advance, for partnering with us in helping extend the reach of <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>to more and more people.\n\nWe hope you can join us, again, tomorrow. Rick Langer and Tim Muehlhoff will be here again. We\u2019re going to hear about what the Bible says in Romans 14 about how we can have personal convictions, but we need to be careful that we don\u2019t turn those into absolute truth for <em>everybody<\/em>. That\u2019s a tricky thing to manage, and we\u2019ll hear more about that tomorrow. I hope you can join us for that.\n\nOn behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.\n\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. 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