{"id":306948,"date":"2021-07-16T07:00:04","date_gmt":"2021-07-16T11:00:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/having-a-brave-home\/"},"modified":"2021-07-16T07:00:04","modified_gmt":"2021-07-16T11:00:04","slug":"having-a-brave-home","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/having-a-brave-home\/","title":{"rendered":"Having a Brave Home"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>As Christians, we desire to be brave and trust fully in God. Kevin Thompson encourages our families to follow Him without fear, because His love never fails.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-07-16.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:30:19","filesize":"27.76M","filesize_raw":"29111091","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822,2806],"tags":[4798,2209],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[8832],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306948","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","category-spiritual-development","tag-kids","tag-parenting","cwp_profile-kevin-thompson","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306948\/having-a-brave-home","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306948\/having-a-brave-home","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"6wLJObeAO9\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/having-a-brave-home\/\">Having a Brave Home<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/having-a-brave-home\/embed\/#?secret=6wLJObeAO9\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Having a Brave Home&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"6wLJObeAO9\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"As Christians, we desire to be brave and trust fully in God. Kevin Thompson encourages our families to follow Him without fear, because His love never fails.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-07-16.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> What always strikes me is this: I think to myself, \u201cThey really have reasons not to jump right now, because I\u2019m not always trustworthy. Yet, I know that I\u2019m going to catch them; I know it\u2019s going to be okay. Why won\u2019t they just jump?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIsn\u2019t that how God looks at me?\u2014because I have no reason to doubt Him; He will <em>absolutely<\/em> catch me and has never failed me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> app.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> One of the things we used to do, as a family, which I\u2019ve got to give credit to my wife, is go on vacations. We went on a couple RV trips\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; they are so fun. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014where we travelled the country in an RV. We used to call it \u201ccamping\u201d; but it\u2019s not camping when you\u2019ve got an RV with a generator, and AC, and all the great stuff. I remember we\u2019d stop at these campgrounds, and they always had a pool. I\u2019ll never forget when our boys were real little\u2014and every dad or mom has probably experienced this\u2014you\u2019re in the pool; and they are afraid to jump in, because they haven\u2019t really done that yet. They are there, and you in the pool, are like, \u201cCome on; come on.\u201d You\u2019re trying to convince them\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cYou can trust me.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cYou can trust me.\u201d But you can see in their mind this little tension between faith and fear: \u201cDo I trust Dad?\u201d \u201cDo I trust Mom? Can I trust? I\u2019ve never done this before,\u201d\u2014fear is\u2014\u201cI\u2019ve never jumped in a pool. My head has never gone under.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOf course, you are like, \u201cLook at me. Look at my arms; they are the size of a Greek god,\u201d\u2014right? [Laughter]. \u201cI\u2019ve got biceps that would <em>never<\/em> let you down.\u201d They are either going to jump\u2014and that\u2019s that faith moment\u2014and there is that split second, where they don\u2019t know. Then they feel dad or mom catch them, and they are running back to do it again; because they\u2019ve <em>experienced<\/em> it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut you know, when you apply that to our walks in our faith life\u2014I mean, we don\u2019t have that thought in the pool\u2014but if you think it through: \u201cIf they never jump, there are consequences because they\u2019ll think: \u2018You know, I\u2019m not a jumper kind of kid,\u2019 \u2018I\u2019m not\u2026\u2019\u2014there are consequences. If they do jump, there are consequences. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think this applies to what we are talking about today with Kevin A. Thompson, pastor in Arkansas, who wrote a book called <em>Fearless Families<\/em>. It\u2019s all about fear. I love what we were talking about: building a \u201cHome of the Afraid\u201d\u2014your term\u2014or \u201c\u2026the Brave.\u201d I know you\u2019ve written other books; and you\u2019re a dad, and you\u2019re a pastor. You live this, not only in your home, but in your church and in your community. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFirst of all, let me say, \u201cWelcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> Thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Glad you\u2019re here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> Great to be with you both. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Thanks. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019re sitting there, like, \u201cWhen can I jump in?!\u201d because you\u2019re shaking your head. I could tell that you\u2019ve experienced that. Have you experienced that, as a dad, with a kid on the side of the pool? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> Oh, there is no question. What always strikes me is this: I think to myself, \u201cThey really have reasons not to jump right now, because I\u2019m not always trustworthy. Yet, I know that I\u2019m going to catch them; I know it\u2019s going to be okay. Why won\u2019t they just jump?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIsn\u2019t that how God looks at me?\u2014because I have no reason to doubt Him; He will <em>absolutely<\/em> catch me and has <em>never<\/em> failed to. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> See, look what the pastor does with that. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I know; it\u2019s so good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> He just takes it to a <em>whole<\/em> other level. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> When I see Dave telling the boys, \u201cDo it; do it,\u201d I think, \u201cIs he going to catch them?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> Yes, because you\u2019ve seen him fail. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> Dave has <em>failed<\/em> you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> He <em>has<\/em>, Kevin. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> But God never <em>has<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> Yet, so often, whenever I think about that division between my children and me, it just reminds me that is such a small division compared to my division between God and me. Anytime, I\u2019m frustrated about my kids\u2014not trusting me, not telling me the truth, not obeying me, not doing\/all those things\u2014\u201cKevin, just flip that around. That\u2019s how God feels. He just knows you are going to have a better life if you will follow Him.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s what <em>Fearless Families<\/em> really is about in the end. It comes down to a very basic question: \u201cAre you going to go the way of love or not?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, as you thought about writing a book called <em>Fearless Families<\/em>, is that because you <em>saw<\/em> a lot of fear, maybe in your own home or in other homes? I know you pastor and you know a lot of families. Was it something like, \u201cMan, I see <em>fear<\/em> everywhere; I\u2019ve got to address that\u201d? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> I think the funny thing about the title of the book is the concept of it comes out in my daughter, who is now 15. She looks at me; and she goes, \u201cBut Daddy, we\u2019re not fearless,\u201d\u2014[Laughter]\u2014basically, calling out the hypocrisy of that\u2014like, \u201cWho are <em>you<\/em> to write a book about fearless families?\u201d\u2014right? [Laughter] But it really is this concept of how fear is dominating every <em>aspect<\/em> of our lives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s really where the heart of the book came from: in my own experience that I had with my son that kind of revealed the anxiety I had within my own heart and how that was playing out in the lives of everybody that was around me\u2014the family that I have in my house with my wife and children; the family I have at work at the church, with my coworkers and the employees that work for me; the fear that I was now kind of bringing to my friend group\u2014all those different little families that I have\u2014how <em>my<\/em> fear was adding to <em>their<\/em> fear and how it really was <em>dominating<\/em> our world. This was <em>before<\/em> the pandemic. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> Then the pandemic hits; and then it just <em>explodes<\/em>\u2014of this concept of fear, literally, driving every aspect of who we are\u2014I think so often people don\u2019t see it. I think that is the amazing thing to me\u2014is now, that people see the book, and they are starting to read it, they\u2019ll say things like, \u201cKevin, I never realized how I was driven by fear until I read this book.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Really? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> I\u2019m like, \u201cAre you crazy?!\u201d A couple comes to my office, and I can point out ten different ways that they are making choices based on fear; but they don\u2019t even realize it. Fear is so much the water that we\u2019re swimming in; we never even recognize it. We don\u2019t know how it is <em>ruling<\/em> our lives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It is interesting\u2014I remember when our kids were teenagers\u2014I\u2019ve probably never been as fearful as that era when they are all teenagers. I read Tim Kimmel\u2019s book called <em>Grace Based Parenting<\/em>. He asked the question:\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cAre you parenting out of fear?\u201d My answer was \u201cOf course! I should be afraid; look at our world.\u201d I realized, \u201cOh, most of my decisions that I am making with our teens are based out of my own fear of what they\u2019ll do, of what they\u2019ll become, of how they\u2019ll make us look.\u201d All of it was out of fear. You\u2019re right; I didn\u2019t even recognize it until someone pointed it out. So you\u2019re helping us; you are asking us, \u201cWhat are we afraid of?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> The reality is, in many of the statistics, we actually live in one of the safest times ever\u2014that whenever you look at child abduction, child murder\u2014whenever you look at the big statistics, this is actually one of the safest times <em>ever<\/em> to be a child. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut what happened, I think, with the onset of 24-hour news channels, the danger rate for children was dropping 60 percent; the news stories about child abduction just going up 600 percent; and then 9\/11 happened. My generation was watching these events before we got married, before we had kids, or maybe right when we were having them. Suddenly, the world seemed like a very dangerous place. Then a pandemic hits. Literally, what used to be the most mundane kind of concept of sharing a handshake or a hug could now kill a family member? It\u2019s no surprise, I think, that we live in a very fearful generation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYet, at the same time, is our awareness of that fear making our lives better? Are we making better decisions because we are feeling so fearful? Nobody would say that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> Nobody would claim that this is going the way it is supposed to go. I understand\u2014especially raising teenagers in a fearful kind of culture\u2014but I think the question then becomes: \u201cDo the decisions you make, based on fear, lead to better outcomes?\u201d\u2014no; they simple don\u2019t. \u201cWouldn\u2019t decisions based on love be better?\u201d\u2014of course; I think we all naturally innately know that. We just don\u2019t <em>believe<\/em> it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo it comes down to this question of: \u201cWhich are we going to believe? Are we going to believe what feels natural to us?\u2014or are we going to believe what God has taught us and follow after Him?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> One of the things we do, when we are afraid, is we make an idol of safety. You know, it becomes sort of our god: \u201cI\u2019ll do whatever it takes to be completely safe.\u201d But you mention in your book, other idols\/other things we sort of place up; because we are living in fear. What would they be? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> We talked about, previously, that the \u201cHome of the Afraid\u201d is built on the foundation of safety, that we make that the primary question. Fear drives us to idolize this concept. Well, the natural roof that is built on top of the foundation of safety is that of appearances: that we are now going to <em>project<\/em> a strength\/a power on ability. We\u2019re not going to show any weakness whatsoever until, maybe, we are what we are actually projecting or, at least, until we\u2019re not found out to be in that way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat becomes the dominate kind of image and metaphor for the family\u2014what\u2019s really driving us is we know we don\u2019t have it all together\u2014but we can\u2019t show that weakness; we can\u2019t reveal it to our kids; we can\u2019t reveal it to each other; we definitely can\u2019t reveal it to those who are outside of our families. We are <em>so<\/em> concerned with <em>projecting<\/em> something that doesn\u2019t match the reality of who we are. Why?\u2014because when safety is the foundation that we\u2019re building on, we can\u2019t show any weakness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThink about it: if you are out on the prairie, and there is a lion that is out there, then you can\u2019t limp; you\u2019re the one he is going to chase down. I mean, literally, survival of the fittest\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> \u2014is still driving us. Survival of the fittest\u2014that is a concept, in many ways, that is a God-given concept of fight, flight, or freeze\u2014we understand it when our lives are on the line; it can be the right response. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut whenever it comes down to having a difficult conversation with your teenager, or with your spouse, or with a coworker, or a friend, that is the <em>worst<\/em> response you can possibly give. What happens is\u2014when we idolize safety\u2014we naturally begin to idolize appearances; because if I show weakness\/if I show vulnerability, I\u2019m not going to feel <em>safe<\/em> in that moment. Because I don\u2019t trust you, I can\u2019t now reveal my full heart in who you are. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe next thing you know\u2014a marriage that is built on appearances\u2014you\u2019re showing part of your heart; you\u2019re [spouse] bringing part of your heart; and it\u2019s not even a real relationship. You said, \u201cI do,\u201d to bring the fullness of who you are to the table; but neither one of you are doing that because you are afraid that\u2014\u201cIf I show the weakness,\u201d \u201dIf I admit this hurt me,\u201d \u201dIf I ask the question, \u2018How have I hurt you?\u2019\u2014you can then use that against me, and manipulate me, and abuse me, and bring it up.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve been hurt so many times that we just very naturally learn to project: \u201cI\u2019ve got it; I\u2019ve got it together,\u201d \u201cI have it all: I can be it all; I can do it all.\u201d It\u2019s killing us in the process. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What\u2019s really scary, when I hear you say that, is that idol is a <em>big<\/em> idol in the church. People feel like to walk in the doors of a church: that\u2019s where the people that have it together live. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014so we put on our mask. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We put on our mask. I said, many times at our church over 30 years, I\u2019d like to put a sign at our front door that says, \u201cDrop your masks here,\u201d\u2014you know? This was before we were wearing masks in a pandemic. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> Now, you <em>definitely<\/em> want to say that. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> But you know, you just want to say: \u201cI want\/I hope this place could be an authentic place, where you can come and be real.\u201d As much as you say that, you still realize: \u201cIt\u2019s really, really hard to do.\u201d People see the church as a place, where \u201cI can\u2019t be [real], so I put on the appearance; and I don\u2019t share weakness.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSometimes, we do the same thing in our home! It\u2019s just like: \u201cI\u2019m not going to tell Mom or Dad what I\u2019m really struggling with,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m not going to tell my son or daughter that I\u2019m not as put together as it looks like, as a dad or a mom.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>What do we do with that?\u2014because, I mean, that\u2019s the \u201cHome of the Afraid.\u201d We have another part of your book, which is the \u201cHome of the Brave.\u201d How does the \u201cHome of the Brave\u201d counteract that? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Let me give an example of that I remember. I didn\u2019t grow up in the church. When we started going to church, and we had kids, I remember sitting in a Bible study with a small group of women. I said, \u201cI really yelled at my kids this week, you guys. I feel like I\u2019m going <em>crazy<\/em>, and I\u2019m a crazy person. I feel so bad and guilty.\u201d And then there was <em>total<\/em> silence; everyone had small children. I said, \u201cOh, do you guys never yell at your kids?\u201d Somebody said, \u201cI\u2019ve never yelled at my kids.\u201d Nobody said <em>anything<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI walked away, thinking, \u201cOh, I\u2019m the only one. They are <em>true<\/em> followers of Jesus. I\u2019m the only sinner in the room.\u201d I thought, \u201cI\u2019m not going to share anymore of my mistakes and the things that I\u2019ve made.\u201d I just learned to put on a mask. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tActually, I didn\u2019t; because I just got out of that Bible study, thinking, \u201cSurely, there is someone, because\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cI\u2019ll find another church.\u201d [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cbecause I can\u2019t hide, and I don\u2019t think it is good to hide.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> The message that was sent by that group, in that moment, was <em>not<\/em>: \u201cWe don\u2019t make mistakes,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> \u2014because somebody could have stepped in and said, \u201cYou know, I don\u2019t yell at my kids; but here is what I do\u2026\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> \u2014and to show <em>humanity<\/em> in that moment. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right; or just\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> Instead, the message that was sent to <em>you<\/em> is: \u201cHey, we don\u2019t reveal weaknesses here.\u201d What is that?\u2014that is the roof of appearances\u2014that we are not allowed [to express weaknesses]. Because safety is the foundation of who we are; appearances have to be the roof. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat we think is that: \u201cAppearances are going to protect us now from the fears of life and from the pains of life.\u201d So if you can <em>project<\/em> a strength\/<em>project<\/em> a power, then somebody else won\u2019t accuse you of something. They won\u2019t try to manipulate you or guilt you into something. If you refuse to show that weakness, we think they\u2019ll have\/they\u2019ll have <em>nothing<\/em> to come after us with, and we will be safer in that way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDave, you\u2019ve been a pastor of a great church for 30 years. You know better than anybody: \u201cUntil you come in here and live in an authentic way,\u201d\u2014\u201cUntil you admit what is going on, you have no chance of healing. Until you reveal it, you can\u2019t heal from it\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right; right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> You have no chance. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, what\u2019s funny is, as a pastor\u2014as you all have done in your church for so long\u2014is you just <em>beg<\/em> people continuously: \u201cJust drop it. Tell us the truth, and we\u2019ll deal with it. We\u2019ll handle it; but as long as you are <em>acting<\/em>, it\u2019s simply not going to work.\u201d What you are doing in that moment is you\u2019re calling them out of the \u201cHome of the Afraid\u201d\/the \u201cChurch of the Afraid\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> \u2014and into the \u201cHome of the Brave\u201d\/\u201dthe Church of the Brave.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, what is the roof? Well, the foundation, now\u2014is not safety\u2014it is trust: \u201cWe\u2019re going to trust God,\u201d and \u201cWe going to trust each other.\u201d Now, we don\u2019t just give trust to one another without forethought. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> It has to be <em>earned<\/em> in many ways; but we are going to have the courage to recognize, \u201cWe do need to trust other people.\u201d Once you have that trust with other people, then you can begin\u2014instead of putting up the roof of appearances\u2014you can put up the roof of heart: \u201cHere is who I actually am.\u201d You can think of that concept of heart; you can think about the concept of character: \u201cHere is who I actually am.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs parents: \u201cHere is the home that we want to have,\u201d \u201cHere is what we are going to be building,\u201d\u2014the importance of character. It is interesting to me that we live in a time in which the topic of character is now thrown aside as though it is not important. Somehow, we\u2019ve cut out of the Bible the idea that character is a prerequisite for biblical leadership in the home, in the state, in the country\u2014anywhere. There is no biblical model for that being the case. As a matter of fact, there is a lot of biblical models for: \u201cHere is what happens when you no longer care about character.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right; right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> So even the concept of character development, churches don\u2019t even think about that anymore; a lot of parents don\u2019t even think about that anymore. But in the \u201cHome of the Brave,\u201d what we are going to say is: \u201cAppearances matter; a good name matters; but what matters more than appearances is reality: \u2018Who are we?\u2019 \u2018Where are we?\u2019 \u2018Where do we want to be?\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tUntil we admit where we are, we can\u2019t take the proper steps to get where we want to be:\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo somebody walks into your church. You are <em>begging<\/em> them: \u201cDon\u2019t go through five years of hypocrisy, and <em>then<\/em> let me see who you actually are. Start right now, and you\u2019ll be different five years from now.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou look at your kids. You\/I beg my kids\u2014right?\u2014two teenagers: \u201cJust tell me the truth! I can deal with it. Just don\u2019t put on this <em>show<\/em>. Just tell me who you actually are.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, how much is God telling me that? How much is my <em>wife<\/em> telling me that?\u2014like, \u201cKevin, you don\u2019t have to downplay this; you don\u2019t have to diminish this.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is in one of my early marriage books\u2014<em>Friends, Partners, and Lovers<\/em>\u2014but it\u2019s the basic concept that I had to learn that I could tell Jenny what hurt me, and it wasn\u2019t going to kill us. But I had written the story [in my mind]\u2014growing up in a home of divorce; right?\u2014I had written the story that: \u201cIf this conversation goes wrong, this could be over.\u201d So I put up the roof of appearance: \u201cI\u2019m fine; everything is okay.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cWe\u2019re good.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> Well, Jenny is like, \u201cI know you\u2019re not fine! I can <em>see<\/em> that you are not fine. Why don\u2019t you just tell me?\u201d To now, put up the roof of <em>heart<\/em>, that I\u2019m going to engage the totality of who I am, in the brokenness and the messiness of it all; but once you actually start to do that, then you have the chance for transformation; you have the chance for change. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tImagine what your home would be like if we really dealt with reality: no lying, no mask, no hypocrisy. I\u2019m not saying, using our failings or our brokenness, in a mean-spirited way; but I\u2019m just saying, \u201cHave this common aspect of grace and mercy to where you can tell me what your hurt actually is. Now, we can get to work.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDave, I don\u2019t know about you; but as a pastor, some of my favorite people are recovering addicts\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> \u2014because they understand the danger of lies\/of deceit. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; they are the most honest people in your church usually. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> Absolutely; that\u2019s why they are <em>healthy<\/em>\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> \u2014is because they have understood that <em>deception<\/em> leads to <em>death<\/em>. The only chance at <em>life<\/em> is <em>truth<\/em>. So they will literally come in, and they will destroy the roof of appearances faster than anybody else. Then they will bring their actual heart into what\u2019s going on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m thinking of this, as I am thinking of heart, I\u2019m remembering that one of our kids, when they were in their late 20s, came back to us and said, \u201cI wish you guys would have cared for my heart <em>more<\/em> than the idea,\u201d\u2014 because he came to us and told us [as a teenager] he had been drinking and got drunk. When he told us that, we did have consequences and all of that\u2014but later, he said, \u201cI wish you would have asked me, \u2018Why?\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut he says now, like, \u201cI didn\u2019t know who I was. I wanted to fit in. I wanted to be a part of everybody, and I was feeling incredibly insecure.\u201d Now, as an 18-year-old\/17-year-old\u2014I don\u2019t know if he could have communicated that\u2014but it\u2019s interesting that you say that. He wanted us to care for his heart: \u201cDon\u2019t explode, and I know there will be consequences; but go deeper with me continually and find out: \u2018How is your heart?\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe appearance thing, especially with teenagers, when they are making bad decisions, it\u2019s really easy in the church to judge one another: \u201cOh, their home\/they are really messed up; but we\u2026.\u2014it\u2019s easy to do that. I like that you are talking about that really getting to the heart\/knowing your values; that\u2019s really big. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> And think about this within the concept of even that discussion. I think it\u2019s important for the listeners to understand and to <em>remind<\/em> themselves: \u201cWe\u2019re all going to mess up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> \u201cEvery single one of our kids are going to be able to come back to us, if they want to, and give a list of questions of: \u2018I wish you would have done this\u2019\u201d; and you know what? In a lot of ways, they are going to be right. That reality paralyzes the \u201cHome of the Afraid\u201d\u2014the idea that I could possibly mess up my child\/that I could make the wrong decision\u2014it literally paralyzes us from making decisions\/from doing anything. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut in the \u201cHome of the Brave,\u201d we can mourn that and grieve that\u2014know we\u2019re going to make mistakes\u2014but still, the question becomes: \u201cOkay, what\u2019s the loving response to that? What is the next loving action that I need to take?\u201d Even something like that, in the \u201cHome of the Brave,\u201d where they\u2019re now revealing their heart, you can thank them and appreciate what\u2019s going on, not feel any need to defend yourself or the decisions that you made. Say: \u201cYou know what? We must have messed that one up, and I would do it differently now.\u201d It doesn\u2019t paralyze you; instead, it frees you in what\u2019s going on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt is interesting that two families can go through the exact same circumstance; and for one, it can be grief-stricken; and for others, it can be liberating\/of: \u201cThat\u2019s an interesting insight.\u201d Yet, it doesn\u2019t paralyze you from moving forward. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And it makes you point them\u2014again, it shows them that we are broken\u2014and the Father\/God the Father\u2014it just points you back to Him, like, \u201cAren\u2019t you glad that He doesn\u2019t mess up?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s good stuff; really good stuff. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think it\u2019s great for listeners just to have that conversation. I had this with our kids; I said, \u201cWhat do you think our values are in our home?\u201d when they were preteens and teens. I\u2019m just going to tell you\u2014it was discouraging\u2014[Laughter]\u2014because sports was number one. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Because we hadn\u2019t read your helpful training. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> But I think it\u2019s great, just to open the door, and start having those conversations: \u201cDo you feel like we\u2019re afraid?\u201d \u201cDo you feel like there is fear in our family?\u201d and \u201cCan you be open and share your heart?\u201d It can be a <em>great<\/em> conversation starter. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; way to go. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Thanks for being here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kevin:<\/strong> Thank you! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It may be that your family would benefit from having the kind of conversation that Dave and Ann Wilson were suggesting\u2014a conversation about fears\u2014\u201cWhat are your deepest fears, and how can we address those fears?\u201d and \u201cHow can we build courage and confidence together as a family?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDave and Ann have been talking today to Kevin Thompson, who has written a book called <em>Fearless Families<\/em>. It is a book that we\u2019ve got in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. We also have a link on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com to Kevin\u2019s website, where he blogs and has additional resources available. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt occurs to me that it\u2019s not just families that can be controlled by fear, but ministries like <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> can experience this as well. David Robbins, who is the president of FamilyLife, is here with us. David, this is a culture that causes all of us to become anxious and fearful. This is something that, as a ministry, we\u2019ve had to address; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Yes, this is something we\u2019ve been processing, as a FamilyLife staff team, of\u2014as the world continues to get more complex, as culture continues to get more challenging, and you navigate different issues\u2014\u201cHow do we, as a ministry, <em>continue<\/em> to trust the Lord and His timeless truth to be bold in faith in what He wants to do in our day and to live out our calling, as an organization, to [raise] up families who, not only experience the gospel and become transformed themselves, but live as fearless families, proclaiming the gospel to their communities around them?\u201d That part of our mission statement that we <em>love<\/em>\u2014is only possible through families just like you\u2014of those families, that are being encouraged and transformed, going out and transforming other families around them. That\u2019s what Jesus invited us into, and that\u2019s what we <em>love<\/em> being a part of at FamilyLife. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We can make this really simple for you with some of the tools and resources we\u2019ve got. You can get together with other couples\/other parents and say, \u201cWe\u2019re going to go through a study on parenting called the <em>Art of Parenting<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. Would you like to go through that with us?\u201d or \u201cWe\u2019re going to go through a marriage study called <em>Vertical Marriage<\/em>. It\u2019s a video series.\u201d Invite people into your home. Fire up the video, watch together, and begin to have some interaction around important marriage and family subjects that can lead to a conversation about spiritual matters. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGo to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com. There is information about many of the resources we have available. Then plan, together, to step past the fear and start engaging with your neighbors. <br><br>Well, with that, we\u2019ve got to wrap this up for this week. Thanks for being with us. Hope you and your family are able to worship together in your local church this weekend, and I hope you can join us back on Monday when we\u2019re going to talk about how we can have winsome conversations with family members, coworkers, people at church about hard\/even controversial subjects. Is that possible in our day? Tim Muehlhoff and Rick Langer think it is. We\u2019ll talk with them on Monday. I hope you can be with us for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. Have a great weekend. We will see you Monday for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. 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