{"id":306746,"date":"2021-02-25T07:00:05","date_gmt":"2021-02-25T12:00:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/recognizing-oppression\/"},"modified":"2021-02-25T07:00:05","modified_gmt":"2021-02-25T12:00:05","slug":"recognizing-oppression","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/recognizing-oppression\/","title":{"rendered":"Recognizing Oppression"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>How do we know what&#8217;s abuse and what&#8217;s not? On FamilyLife Today, join hosts Dave and Ann Wilson as they speak with counselor and author Darby Strickland about her book, &#8220;Is It Abuse?&#8221; to understand its complexity and how to recognize it.<br \/>\nShow Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tDownload FamilyLife&#8217;s new app! https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/<br \/>\n \tFind resources from this podcast at https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130.<br \/>\n \tCheck out all that&#8217;s available on the FamilyLife Podcast Network.\u00a0 https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>How do we know what&#8217;s abuse and what&#8217;s not? Counselor and author Darby Strickland helps us understand its complexity and how to recognize it.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-02-25.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:32:35","filesize":"29.84M","filesize_raw":"31289445","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2873,2093],"tags":[2949],"podcast_series":[8430],"cwp_profile":[9694],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306746","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-mental-and-emotional-issues","category-women","tag-abuse","podcast_series-is-it-abuse","cwp_profile-darby-strickland","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306746\/recognizing-oppression","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306746\/recognizing-oppression","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"GuaWmYiLX9\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/recognizing-oppression\/\">Recognizing Oppression<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/recognizing-oppression\/embed\/#?secret=GuaWmYiLX9\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Recognizing Oppression&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"GuaWmYiLX9\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":[""],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-02-25.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We tend to think of abuse in a marriage relationship as being something physical, domestic violence of some sort. Darby Strickland says there are a lot of categories of marital abuse.\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>I\u2019m just thinking of a client of mine, who came in, and she was slowly beginning to talk about the ways that her husband just would perpetually ignore her. He didn\u2019t talk to her at dinner ever; I don\u2019t think he talked to her five minutes in a week.\n\nWe just have to go slow and begin to label things: \u201cGod\u2019s Word says these things are wrong. It\u2019s not Darby saying these things are wrong, or them saying these things are wrong: but God has called this man to live differently.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, February 25 <sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. What makes a marriage an abusive marriage? What has to be going on for it to be considered abusive?\u2014and are you in an abusive marriage? If so, what do you do? We\u2019re going to talk about that today with Darby Strickland. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. We\u2019re going to tackle a tough one today; aren\u2019t we?\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>This is a tough topic.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I think to myself, sometimes when I am in front of our church, and I\u2019m looking out at our congregation, I\u2019m thinking, \u201cProbably, without me realizing it, there is domestic violence happening somewhere in the homes in [this congregation].\u201d We\u2019d never believe it if we knew, but it\u2019s one of those things that I think is more prevalent than any of us recognize.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>It\u2019s a secret, and I think a lot of people are holding onto that in shame. I think\u2014as a congregation, as lay people, and even as pastors\u2014we don\u2019t always know how to tackle that.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes; and I think, like you said, Bob, I think it\u2019s the secret in the church too. In fact, one of our mottoes in the back room\/the green room is: \u201cNever underestimate the pain in the room\u201d; I\u2019ve never forgotten that. Because you\u2019re looking out there, and you\u2019re thinking\u2014you sort of put on a covering; you sort of pretend everything\u2019s okay\u2014and yet, there could be that kind of pain\/abuse pain, right there in our seats. I bet it is.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Darby Strickland is joining us today on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Darby, welcome.\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>Thank you for having me.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Darby is an author\/a counselor. She is associated with the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation in Philadelphia. She has written a book called <em>Is It Abuse?<\/em>, where you have tackled this subject. It\u2019s a subject you\u2019ve tackled because the secret comes out when people call you and say, \u201cHere\u2019s what\u2019s going on in my marriage\u201d; right?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>Yes; actually, in fact most of the time, they don\u2019t tell me what\u2019s going on in their marriages; I\u2019ve had to discover it. More often than not, when I have a young woman, or a young married, or an older married woman, they\u2019re coming to me for something peripherally. They\u2019re actually saying to me: \u201cDarby, I\u2019m having really bad anxiety,\u201d \u201cI don\u2019t feel like I respect my husband,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m having problems being intimate with him.\u201d They\u2019re not even recognizing that they\u2019re being mistreated and either being abused\u2014they have so much confusion.\n\nEven in cases where there\u2019s physical abuse\u2014right?\u2014their oppressor makes it feel like it\u2019s their fault: that they\u2019re deserving of the treatment, that they need to be disciplined, that they\u2019re not right with God, that their spouse is right to be that angry and frustrated with them.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Is this going on in the church?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>Sadly, it is. Statistics in the world are about 25 percent of marriages are oppressive or abusive. When I first heard that statistic, I really struggled to believe that; then, doing further research, the same statistic is true in the evangelical church, which I was falling off my chair; and I was struggling to believe it. Then I sat back and I thought about the marriages that I knew in my church, and the women that I was helping in my church, and the support group I was leading in my church; and it quickly filled up the numbers, and it matched.\n\nI\u2019d say for a lot of people who disbelieve the statistic, that\u2019s okay: cut it in half, cut in thirds, cut it in eighths; it\u2019s still a problem, and we really need to address it; because any abuse is intolerable.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Let\u2019s talk about the definition, because there are times when somebody will say casually, \u201cYou know, my husband is abusing me. He won\u2019t let me buy what I want to buy.\u201d You go, \u201cWait, hang on. That might not be abuse.\u201d Do you have a way to differentiate between what\u2019s legitimate abuse and what\u2019s \u201cI\u2019m not getting what I want\u201d?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>I think that\u2019s actually one of the hardest things to differentiate, particularly if people are on the outside, hearing a story from a wife and a husband. I think we always want to be really careful; we want to go slow. Abuse is a big word: it\u2019s a category; it just means misuse.\n\nOne of the things I tell people I want them to do is I want them to describe with accuracy, using all the verbs, not just one incident\u2014right?\u2014I want to hear there\u2019s this perpetual domination of control. A one-off story or a one-off incident can happen in any marriage; but there\u2019s this perpetual nature of domination, and wounding, and punishments. I want people to be able to say: \u201cHe was cruel,\u201d \u201cHe was manipulative,\u201d \u201cHe lied,\u201d with great accuracy for each incident.\n\nWe also recognize that abuse happens on a spectrum; right? There are people whose experiences of abuse are more mildly controlling, and there are people who have been terrorized and threatened with lethal violence. In this area, we want to be extremely accurate with what\u2019s happening in a particular case with a particular couple. No two cases of abuse are the same; so we really have to go slow, know the person, know their story, know <em>exactly<\/em> what\u2019s happening in that relationship.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>You\u2019re talking about, not only a physical abuse of hitting or punching, you\u2019re also talking mental kind of domination.\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>Correct. What that would look like: it would be isolating somebody from friends, family, relationships. The thing that I tend to see more in my church cases would be women who are monitored. A friend of mind actually found her husband had her whole cell phone being replicated on his laptop, and then he\u2019d have complaints about how she spent her time and her day. He would dictate and control her through electronic surveillance.\n\nThe other large portion is just coercive control, just trying to get somebody to live their life the way they want it at their wife\u2019s expense. You don\u2019t have to use physical force to do that: you can withdraw from someone; you can ignore them; you can be cruel.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Talk about that control. I don\u2019t have Ann\u2019s cell phone on my laptop, but I do know what she\u2019s spending money on. Did you know that, honey?\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I do know that, because you bring it up. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Again, we both do that, back and forth. But you know, when does it slide into this coercive control, which is <em>bad<\/em>?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>I think we all have healthy desires\u2014right?\u2014and we\u2019re all sinners. There are certain things that we like and prefer. Then all of us: sometimes there\u2019s a descent of a healthy desire, and it becomes a need, and then it becomes a demand. That can happen in a bad marriage and a good marriage. I can want my husband to do certain things for me and be upset when he doesn\u2019t, and that\u2019s not healthy: that\u2019s not loving him; that\u2019s not kind.\n\nWhat I\u2019m  about as abuse is I\u2019m willing to wound and punish another person to get what I want; so you create a coercive environment, where someone\u2019s actually enslaved to meeting your desires.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>But the perpetrator  necessarily think: \u201cI am going to coerce you,\u201d or \u201cI am going to punish you.\u201d They\u2019re not thinking that; are they?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>I would argue some are and some aren\u2019t.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Okay.\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>That\u2019s what\u2019s really difficult. Again, abuse is on a spectrum. You do have some oppressors, who tend to function more like a chess master; and they\u2019ll play more mind games. They\u2019ll say: \u201cI never said that,\u201d \u201cYou didn\u2019t do this.\u201d They might gossip about you at church, purposefully trying to erode your relationships. They\u2019re much more strategic.\n\nThen you have other oppressors, who just want their world the way they want it. They don\u2019t even recognize that what they\u2019re doing is wrong and cruel, and they feel so self-justified in it. Even among oppressors, it\u2019s confusing; because most women will say to me, \u201cDoes he understand what he\u2019s doing?\u201d We don\u2019t always know, and that\u2019s very difficult.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Often, you\u2019ve said: \u201cThe man\/he\u2019s doing this.\u201d Is it predominantly men that abuse? I\u2019m not just talking physical, but even coercive control; or is there a balance?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>No, I think that\u2019s a great question; thanks for the clarification. Certainly, in my experience with women in the church, it\u2019s much more <em>prevalent<\/em> to have women as victims. But domestic abuse is gendered; most victims are women. However, men can be victims of domestic violence. Women can do the same gross things that men do to women. We see that with child abuse; right? Women are capable of having the same corruption.\n\nThe difference is it\u2019s rarer, because you have to have power and differential in the relationship. In some relationships, that\u2019s easier to establish: if you have a husband, who is disabled; or you were the breadwinner; or you had more family relationships, you might have more natural power in that relationship. It\u2019s not just a cruel behavior; you also have to have the ability to have that power in that relationship.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I was just thinking, \u201cOkay, if I had one time hit her with the back of my hand across her face, even though I\u2019d never done it again, that is abuse,\u201d\u2014just one time. Is that the kind of thing you see, or is it more of a pattern?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>Typically, if we see one incidence of physical abuse there are probably other forms of coercive control happening. There might have been one incidence, where someone was struck; but then there would be other incidences, where we\u2019d go back and we\u2019d look at how is he valuing her, speaking to her, caring for her.\n\nOppression is not an incident. Typically, someone who uses physical violence\u2014unless they\u2019re, immediately, distraught\/broken, saying, \u201cGet me help; I never want that to happen again\u201d; that\u2019s a person, who has insight and sorrow for what he\u2019s done\u2014oppressors typically do not; they feel very <em>justified<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>You said, often, women come in\/they don\u2019t even realize. How do you get them to realize what\u2019s really going on, that they are being oppressed?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>That\u2019s really difficult\u2014because they love this person; they love the Lord, often\u2014they want to do everything they can do for their marriage. Oftentimes, these women come in with their little notes on pieces of paper, trying to tell me, trying to make sense of their world. They\u2019ve read every marriage book; they have prayer journals for the way that they\u2019ve prayed for their husband.\n\nWhen they start to trust you, and they start to reveal more of the story\u2014I\u2019m just thinking of a client of mine, who came in; and she was slowly beginning to talk about the ways that her husband just would perpetually ignore her: he didn\u2019t talk to her at dinner ever; I don\u2019t think he talked to her five minutes in a week\u2014then she started telling me stories about how he would come in, paying so much attention to the children\u2014bringing them dinner when she was sick and couldn\u2019t cook\u2014but didn\u2019t provide a meal for her.\n\nI just create a category of indifference. I pick a theme for a particular person; and then we just start to wrap those stories, and then they can begin to see that. But then, when they begin to see it, then they also kind of back up and say, \u201cOh, no, no; but I haven\u2019t told you all the <em>wonderful<\/em> things about my husband! He\u2019s a great provider\u2026\u201d So they\u2019re very confused in their experience.\n\nWe just have to go slow, help them gain insight and begin to label things: \u201cGod\u2019s Word says these things are wrong; it\u2019s not Darby saying these things are wrong or them saying these things are wrong. God has called this man to live differently.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>One of the questions I would have is: \u201cYou\u2019re a professional, and somebody\u2019s coming to see you; but a lot of times, this is going to be somebody coming to a friend: I\u2019m the friend; Ann\u2019s the friend; you\u2019re the friend. Coach us\u2014if we\u2019re a friend and somebody starts, or we start to see symptoms\u2014what do we do?\u2014what do we not do?\u201d\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>One thing that the oppressed often do is they often float a story. They want to know: \u201cCan I trust you?\u201d One that I often hear of women that have come to see me is they\u2019ll say, \u201cYes; early on, I was at a women\u2019s Bible study; and I asked another woman\/I said, \u2018How often does your husband want sex?\u2019\u201d Oftentimes, a lot of my clients have sexual abuse. I just see a lot of that in the church; so here they are\u2014they\u2019re fumbling; they\u2019re wanting to know, \u201cIs this normal?\u201d\u2014but they\u2019re not saying to you: \u201cThis is what\u2019s happening in my home\u201d; they\u2019re just floating a question.\n\nI think one thing: we want to be learners of anybody that the Lord puts in our lives, just to slow down and say, \u201cWhy did you ask? What\u2019s going on that would make you ask that question?\u201d So often, I think, we rush past people. We want to give people answers\u2014we have good theology; we have good compassion\u2014but we\u2019re <em>not<\/em> great at slowing down and listening for further stories from someone.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I listen to you and I  \u201cOh, this is so important.\u201d As a leader of Bible studies for years, I\u2019ll hear all kinds of stories. I\u2019m realizing\u2014after I read your book\u2014I thought, \u201cWow; I probably missed a lot by giving an answer instead of really, as they float that question, kind of digging into that and asking a little more, and not making assumptions that all they need to do is do these two little things that will fix the problem\u201d; you know? \u201cWell, what\u2019s it look like? How are you respecting him?\u201d I\u2019m realizing\/I wonder if I shut some women down from being able to really voice what they\u2019re feeling and what they\u2019re experiencing.\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>I think we all do that because we lack the imagination. What\u2019s happening in these homes is so\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Well, we want to assume the best.\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>Right, and we cannot assume that level of depravity and evil. Until I began to listen to these stories\/these things that these women have told me, I could not have imagined that another human being, let alone one that\u2019s pledged to love you, would perpetrate such acts on someone.\n\nI think for the rest of us, who live in even lousy marriages or a wonderful marriage, like I do, we cannot imagine the horrors. I think it\u2019s a problem of imagination on our end.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Here\u2019s the question. I think a Christian woman\u2014that maybe is in a marriage that\u2019s physically abusive, sexually abusive, or just coercive control to a <em>bad<\/em> extreme\u2014she\u2019s living under: \u201cI need to love him,\u201d \u201cI need to respect him unconditionally.\u201d I\u2019ve probably preached things that would make her think that: \u201cI need to forgive him. Christ has forgiven me; I need to forgive him, so I just stay here and take it,\u201d or at least, \u201cI\u2019m honoring God by doing that.\u201d Is that a right perspective? Is that completely wrong?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>Yes; I think that\u2019s a complex issue\u2014right?\u2014because we don\u2019t know how to respond to abuse. Sometimes we want to\/we want victims to always bring things into light. If you\u2019re being mistreated and sinned against, it\u2019s actually a higher act of love to bring your spouse\u2019s sin to their attention\u2014and maybe that\u2019s not safe, so that\u2019s what makes abuse complex\u2014but to bring it into the light.\n\nBut it also distorts your own relationship with the Lord. If you think that He\u2019s subjecting you to be treated that way, it affects how you think about the Lord\u2019s love of you and your worth as a person\/as His precious child.\n\nIt is a balance of saying: \u201cYes, we try to be respectful; we want to love our spouses even when they\u2019re sinning,\u201d \u201cBut when there\u2019s such brutal sin, we also have to think about safety; we have to think about exposing sin.\u201d It gets really complex; there isn\u2019t a simple answer.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes, I know that I have learned, over 30 years of preaching, and I didn\u2019t know this early\u2014Bob, it would be interesting to hear if you feel the same way, as a teacher of the Word of God\u2014whenever I\u2019m addressing the issue of forgiveness, I have to address that woman, or maybe that man. I always think of that woman, who\u2019s listening to me, who\u2019s maybe being abused, and all she\u2019s hearing me say is: \u201cYou have to forgive. At some point, you have to forgive,\u201d rather than saying, \u201cYou need to forgive, and that\u2019s an issue; but you need to get safe first, if you\u2019re in a home\u2026\u201d I have to say that every time.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u201cJust a footnote; I just want to make clear: if you\u2019re sitting here, and you\u2019re in a home and your husband\u2019s physically abusing you, I\u2019m not saying\u2014you\u2019re going to have to forgive him eventually\u2014but you need to, right now, get safe. The first thing is get safe.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When I was writing <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em>, and got to the end of  passage in\n\n1 Corinthians 13 that says, \u201cLove bears all things, endures all things,\u201d and you have to pause and go, \u201cWhat\u2019s that mean?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Bob,  does that mean? You wrote a book on it.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Right; what does that mean?\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, in  moment, you knew you have to be able to say, \u201cTime out. It does not mean you bear abuse.\u201d I said I think pretty much what you\u2019re saying here, Darby: \u201cYou\u2019re not loving someone well when you\u2019re enabling them to continue in a besetting sin pattern that is destructive to them and their soul. To blow a whistle and say, \u2018We have to have help for you for this pattern that I\u2019m being oppressed by you. You\u2019re being an oppressor.\u2019 That\u2019s bold, courageous love. \u2018Bear all things and endure all things,\u2019 does not mean you continue to bear physical violence or endure physical violence.\u201d\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>I like to encourage them and say, \u201cIf the Lord chooses to sanctify them, and they are redeemed, they will be <em>grateful<\/em> that you stopped the harm that they were doing.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I would add the Scripture, Ephesians 5:22, about \u201cWives, submit to your husbands.\u201d I mean, I always have to add that, too; submission does not mean that we let our husbands abuse us in any way.\n\nDarby, you also talk about different kinds of abuse. Walk through some of those, because some I\u2019ve never really thought about as being abuse.\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>Yes; I think one that we don\u2019t tend to think about in the church, which is odd because it\u2019s very prevalent in the church, is spiritual abuse. I remember one woman had about six kids; she\u2019d come in and she was, again, just really struggling with depression. They thought maybe it was just the kids that were too much.\n\nI just asked her, \u201cHow is your husband\u201d\u2014he was a pastor-in-training at the time\u2014\u201cpraying for you?\u201d She just told me, \u201cHe rehearsed this prayer over me that just was saying, \u2018Help me tolerate what God cannot stand. You\u2019ve given me this wife, who is wasteful, is not tending to her little sheep.\u2019\u201d She went on for ten minutes with Scripture quotes infused\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014that he would pray over her!\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>\u2014that he  pray over her. That\u2019s who she believed she was\u2014just a disappointment to the Lord and a complete failure\u2014it was so difficult, because she could see those words in Scripture.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong> did you say to her?\u2014like do you get riled up inside?\u2014I would. [Laughter] I\u2019m sure you don\u2019t, because you\u2019re professional.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You are, right now, riled!\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I am!\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It\u2019s like, \u201cLet me at him!\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I know, but you wouldn\u2019t; so how do you respond to that?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>I think it does depend on the person: sometimes, I\u2019ll just say, \u201cThat\u2019s not okay\u201d; sometimes, I\u2019ll just have tears streaming down my face: \u201cThis is breaking my heart\u201d; other times, I have to go really slow, because I can see a victim\u2019s blindness. If I push too hard, that\u2019ll have her clam up.\n\nIt really is; it\u2019s hard, because there\u2019s everything in me that wants to be a rescuer\u2014and pick them up and say, \u201cGet out, at least for a time being, and get safe; and know that the Lord loves you, and this is wrong,\u201d\u2014but it usually takes me about probably eight months to a year.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Wow; what happens when she sees the light? Is there a point, where you think, \u201cOh, she has it\u201d?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>When she can tell her story in a coherent way, using consistent categories\u2014not making excuses\/not blaming herself\u2014that\u2019s usually a really good sign that she sees: \u201cThis is not my fault. This is not how God designed marriage, and I <em>need<\/em> help.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>In that  she is enlightened to the point that she can see what her husband\u2019s doing; but he doesn\u2019t, so he\u2019s going to keep doing it\u2014what happened? Did she leave him for a time? Did she stay and just\u2014\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>In this particular case, she didn\u2019t. We spent a long season in prayer. I always say, \u201cWe really want to ask the Lord; you\u2019ll know what to do when you\u2019re confident the Lord is calling you to do it.\u201d It just took her awhile, again, to have the courage to speak. What we eventually did is\u2014we sat with her pastor; we told him the story\u2014and then they started discipling her husband a little bit at a time. After six months, he became really resistant to that. Then it was clear that a separation was needed for him, actually, and his spiritual walk with the Lord.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You identify different categories of abuse in the book. We\u2019ve talked about physical abuse, about emotional abuse, about financial abuse, which is interesting; we\u2019ve talked about spiritual abuse. We\u2019ve had an extended conversation about sexual abuse, which is something you\u2019ve referred to. In fact, if our listeners are interested, they can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com and listen to that conversation, which we thought was more appropriate to have off-air rather than on-air. I think these categories are so helpful.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I think this is a great topic to discuss; because a lot of us, as women, are involved in Bible studies or are leaders of Bible studies. We have great friendships with women, and I think it\u2019s good just to be aware of this topic. This could be going on; and we need ways in which, not only can we pray, but we can look at this book and say, \u201cThese are some things that I could do to help my friend.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; the book is  <em>Is It Abuse?: A Biblical Guide to Identifying Domestic Abuse and Helping Victims<\/em>. We have Darby\u2019s book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. This is a book that will be helpful for pastors and counselors, but I think it\u2019s also helpful for any of us who have friends; or maybe we\u2019re trying to determine if our own relationship is actually an abusive relationship. Get a copy of Darby\u2019s book; go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order your copy, or call us at 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nYou  these are important conversations to have. I wish those of you who listen regularly to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> could be here, when we have conversations like this, to read the emails\/to hear the voices of those, who contact us and say, \u201cWhat you were talking about today is what I\u2019m living with, and thank you for being there for me. Thank you for providing clarity and hope. Pray for me,\u201d\u2014and we do pray for people, regularly, who are going through stuff like this\u2014\u201cThank you for the resources you make available.\u201d\n\nI just want to say to those of you who support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, on behalf of  who contact us, thank you for making this ministry possible for them. That\u2019s what your donations do; you\u2019re helping to effectively develop godly marriages and families.\n\nThis  if you\u2019re able to help with a donation, we\u2019d love to send you a copy of the book we talked about earlier this week, the book <em>Not Yet Married<\/em>, by Marshall Segal, about the pursuit of joy in singleness and in dating. Maybe you know somebody, who\u2019s single or dating, and you\u2019d like to pass this book along to them. Maybe that\u2019s your circumstance. Marshall\u2019s book is our thank-you gift when you make a donation today. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to make an online donation, or call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate.\n\nWe hope you can join us, again, tomorrow when we\u2019re going to continue talking about abusers\u2014or the biblical term, an oppressor\u2014someone who is an oppressor in a marriage relationship. Darby Strickland will be back with us again tomorrow. I hope you can be with us as well.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch. We got some extra added help from Bruce Goff; and of course, our entire broadcast production team was involved. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> of Little Rock, Arkansas;\n\na Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the \n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\n<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:32:35"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["29.84M"],"filesize_raw":["31289445"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-306746.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-306746.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f 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do we know what's abuse and what's not? Counselor and author Darby Strickland helps us understand its complexity and how to recognize it.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We tend to think of abuse in a marriage relationship as being something physical, domestic violence of some sort. Darby Strickland says there are a lot of categories of marital abuse.\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>I\u2019m just thinking of a client of mine, who came in, and she was slowly beginning to talk about the ways that her husband just would perpetually ignore her. He didn\u2019t talk to her at dinner ever; I don\u2019t think he talked to her five minutes in a week.\n\nWe just have to go slow and begin to label things: \u201cGod\u2019s Word says these things are wrong. It\u2019s not Darby saying these things are wrong, or them saying these things are wrong: but God has called this man to live differently.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, February 25 <sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. What makes a marriage an abusive marriage? What has to be going on for it to be considered abusive?\u2014and are you in an abusive marriage? If so, what do you do? We\u2019re going to talk about that today with Darby Strickland. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. We\u2019re going to tackle a tough one today; aren\u2019t we?\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>This is a tough topic.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I think to myself, sometimes when I am in front of our church, and I\u2019m looking out at our congregation, I\u2019m thinking, \u201cProbably, without me realizing it, there is domestic violence happening somewhere in the homes in [this congregation].\u201d We\u2019d never believe it if we knew, but it\u2019s one of those things that I think is more prevalent than any of us recognize.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>It\u2019s a secret, and I think a lot of people are holding onto that in shame. I think\u2014as a congregation, as lay people, and even as pastors\u2014we don\u2019t always know how to tackle that.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes; and I think, like you said, Bob, I think it\u2019s the secret in the church too. In fact, one of our mottoes in the back room\/the green room is: \u201cNever underestimate the pain in the room\u201d; I\u2019ve never forgotten that. Because you\u2019re looking out there, and you\u2019re thinking\u2014you sort of put on a covering; you sort of pretend everything\u2019s okay\u2014and yet, there could be that kind of pain\/abuse pain, right there in our seats. I bet it is.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Darby Strickland is joining us today on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Darby, welcome.\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>Thank you for having me.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Darby is an author\/a counselor. She is associated with the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation in Philadelphia. She has written a book called <em>Is It Abuse?<\/em>, where you have tackled this subject. It\u2019s a subject you\u2019ve tackled because the secret comes out when people call you and say, \u201cHere\u2019s what\u2019s going on in my marriage\u201d; right?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>Yes; actually, in fact most of the time, they don\u2019t tell me what\u2019s going on in their marriages; I\u2019ve had to discover it. More often than not, when I have a young woman, or a young married, or an older married woman, they\u2019re coming to me for something peripherally. They\u2019re actually saying to me: \u201cDarby, I\u2019m having really bad anxiety,\u201d \u201cI don\u2019t feel like I respect my husband,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m having problems being intimate with him.\u201d They\u2019re not even recognizing that they\u2019re being mistreated and either being abused\u2014they have so much confusion.\n\nEven in cases where there\u2019s physical abuse\u2014right?\u2014their oppressor makes it feel like it\u2019s their fault: that they\u2019re deserving of the treatment, that they need to be disciplined, that they\u2019re not right with God, that their spouse is right to be that angry and frustrated with them.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Is this going on in the church?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>Sadly, it is. Statistics in the world are about 25 percent of marriages are oppressive or abusive. When I first heard that statistic, I really struggled to believe that; then, doing further research, the same statistic is true in the evangelical church, which I was falling off my chair; and I was struggling to believe it. Then I sat back and I thought about the marriages that I knew in my church, and the women that I was helping in my church, and the support group I was leading in my church; and it quickly filled up the numbers, and it matched.\n\nI\u2019d say for a lot of people who disbelieve the statistic, that\u2019s okay: cut it in half, cut in thirds, cut it in eighths; it\u2019s still a problem, and we really need to address it; because any abuse is intolerable.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Let\u2019s talk about the definition, because there are times when somebody will say casually, \u201cYou know, my husband is abusing me. He won\u2019t let me buy what I want to buy.\u201d You go, \u201cWait, hang on. That might not be abuse.\u201d Do you have a way to differentiate between what\u2019s legitimate abuse and what\u2019s \u201cI\u2019m not getting what I want\u201d?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>I think that\u2019s actually one of the hardest things to differentiate, particularly if people are on the outside, hearing a story from a wife and a husband. I think we always want to be really careful; we want to go slow. Abuse is a big word: it\u2019s a category; it just means misuse.\n\nOne of the things I tell people I want them to do is I want them to describe with accuracy, using all the verbs, not just one incident\u2014right?\u2014I want to hear there\u2019s this perpetual domination of control. A one-off story or a one-off incident can happen in any marriage; but there\u2019s this perpetual nature of domination, and wounding, and punishments. I want people to be able to say: \u201cHe was cruel,\u201d \u201cHe was manipulative,\u201d \u201cHe lied,\u201d with great accuracy for each incident.\n\nWe also recognize that abuse happens on a spectrum; right? There are people whose experiences of abuse are more mildly controlling, and there are people who have been terrorized and threatened with lethal violence. In this area, we want to be extremely accurate with what\u2019s happening in a particular case with a particular couple. No two cases of abuse are the same; so we really have to go slow, know the person, know their story, know <em>exactly<\/em> what\u2019s happening in that relationship.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>You\u2019re talking about, not only a physical abuse of hitting or punching, you\u2019re also talking mental kind of domination.\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>Correct. What that would look like: it would be isolating somebody from friends, family, relationships. The thing that I tend to see more in my church cases would be women who are monitored. A friend of mind actually found her husband had her whole cell phone being replicated on his laptop, and then he\u2019d have complaints about how she spent her time and her day. He would dictate and control her through electronic surveillance.\n\nThe other large portion is just coercive control, just trying to get somebody to live their life the way they want it at their wife\u2019s expense. You don\u2019t have to use physical force to do that: you can withdraw from someone; you can ignore them; you can be cruel.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Talk about that control. I don\u2019t have Ann\u2019s cell phone on my laptop, but I do know what she\u2019s spending money on. Did you know that, honey?\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I do know that, because you bring it up. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Again, we both do that, back and forth. But you know, when does it slide into this coercive control, which is <em>bad<\/em>?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>I think we all have healthy desires\u2014right?\u2014and we\u2019re all sinners. There are certain things that we like and prefer. Then all of us: sometimes there\u2019s a descent of a healthy desire, and it becomes a need, and then it becomes a demand. That can happen in a bad marriage and a good marriage. I can want my husband to do certain things for me and be upset when he doesn\u2019t, and that\u2019s not healthy: that\u2019s not loving him; that\u2019s not kind.\n\nWhat I\u2019m  about as abuse is I\u2019m willing to wound and punish another person to get what I want; so you create a coercive environment, where someone\u2019s actually enslaved to meeting your desires.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>But the perpetrator  necessarily think: \u201cI am going to coerce you,\u201d or \u201cI am going to punish you.\u201d They\u2019re not thinking that; are they?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>I would argue some are and some aren\u2019t.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Okay.\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>That\u2019s what\u2019s really difficult. Again, abuse is on a spectrum. You do have some oppressors, who tend to function more like a chess master; and they\u2019ll play more mind games. They\u2019ll say: \u201cI never said that,\u201d \u201cYou didn\u2019t do this.\u201d They might gossip about you at church, purposefully trying to erode your relationships. They\u2019re much more strategic.\n\nThen you have other oppressors, who just want their world the way they want it. They don\u2019t even recognize that what they\u2019re doing is wrong and cruel, and they feel so self-justified in it. Even among oppressors, it\u2019s confusing; because most women will say to me, \u201cDoes he understand what he\u2019s doing?\u201d We don\u2019t always know, and that\u2019s very difficult.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Often, you\u2019ve said: \u201cThe man\/he\u2019s doing this.\u201d Is it predominantly men that abuse? I\u2019m not just talking physical, but even coercive control; or is there a balance?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>No, I think that\u2019s a great question; thanks for the clarification. Certainly, in my experience with women in the church, it\u2019s much more <em>prevalent<\/em> to have women as victims. But domestic abuse is gendered; most victims are women. However, men can be victims of domestic violence. Women can do the same gross things that men do to women. We see that with child abuse; right? Women are capable of having the same corruption.\n\nThe difference is it\u2019s rarer, because you have to have power and differential in the relationship. In some relationships, that\u2019s easier to establish: if you have a husband, who is disabled; or you were the breadwinner; or you had more family relationships, you might have more natural power in that relationship. It\u2019s not just a cruel behavior; you also have to have the ability to have that power in that relationship.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I was just thinking, \u201cOkay, if I had one time hit her with the back of my hand across her face, even though I\u2019d never done it again, that is abuse,\u201d\u2014just one time. Is that the kind of thing you see, or is it more of a pattern?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>Typically, if we see one incidence of physical abuse there are probably other forms of coercive control happening. There might have been one incidence, where someone was struck; but then there would be other incidences, where we\u2019d go back and we\u2019d look at how is he valuing her, speaking to her, caring for her.\n\nOppression is not an incident. Typically, someone who uses physical violence\u2014unless they\u2019re, immediately, distraught\/broken, saying, \u201cGet me help; I never want that to happen again\u201d; that\u2019s a person, who has insight and sorrow for what he\u2019s done\u2014oppressors typically do not; they feel very <em>justified<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>You said, often, women come in\/they don\u2019t even realize. How do you get them to realize what\u2019s really going on, that they are being oppressed?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>That\u2019s really difficult\u2014because they love this person; they love the Lord, often\u2014they want to do everything they can do for their marriage. Oftentimes, these women come in with their little notes on pieces of paper, trying to tell me, trying to make sense of their world. They\u2019ve read every marriage book; they have prayer journals for the way that they\u2019ve prayed for their husband.\n\nWhen they start to trust you, and they start to reveal more of the story\u2014I\u2019m just thinking of a client of mine, who came in; and she was slowly beginning to talk about the ways that her husband just would perpetually ignore her: he didn\u2019t talk to her at dinner ever; I don\u2019t think he talked to her five minutes in a week\u2014then she started telling me stories about how he would come in, paying so much attention to the children\u2014bringing them dinner when she was sick and couldn\u2019t cook\u2014but didn\u2019t provide a meal for her.\n\nI just create a category of indifference. I pick a theme for a particular person; and then we just start to wrap those stories, and then they can begin to see that. But then, when they begin to see it, then they also kind of back up and say, \u201cOh, no, no; but I haven\u2019t told you all the <em>wonderful<\/em> things about my husband! He\u2019s a great provider\u2026\u201d So they\u2019re very confused in their experience.\n\nWe just have to go slow, help them gain insight and begin to label things: \u201cGod\u2019s Word says these things are wrong; it\u2019s not Darby saying these things are wrong or them saying these things are wrong. God has called this man to live differently.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>One of the questions I would have is: \u201cYou\u2019re a professional, and somebody\u2019s coming to see you; but a lot of times, this is going to be somebody coming to a friend: I\u2019m the friend; Ann\u2019s the friend; you\u2019re the friend. Coach us\u2014if we\u2019re a friend and somebody starts, or we start to see symptoms\u2014what do we do?\u2014what do we not do?\u201d\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>One thing that the oppressed often do is they often float a story. They want to know: \u201cCan I trust you?\u201d One that I often hear of women that have come to see me is they\u2019ll say, \u201cYes; early on, I was at a women\u2019s Bible study; and I asked another woman\/I said, \u2018How often does your husband want sex?\u2019\u201d Oftentimes, a lot of my clients have sexual abuse. I just see a lot of that in the church; so here they are\u2014they\u2019re fumbling; they\u2019re wanting to know, \u201cIs this normal?\u201d\u2014but they\u2019re not saying to you: \u201cThis is what\u2019s happening in my home\u201d; they\u2019re just floating a question.\n\nI think one thing: we want to be learners of anybody that the Lord puts in our lives, just to slow down and say, \u201cWhy did you ask? What\u2019s going on that would make you ask that question?\u201d So often, I think, we rush past people. We want to give people answers\u2014we have good theology; we have good compassion\u2014but we\u2019re <em>not<\/em> great at slowing down and listening for further stories from someone.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I listen to you and I  \u201cOh, this is so important.\u201d As a leader of Bible studies for years, I\u2019ll hear all kinds of stories. I\u2019m realizing\u2014after I read your book\u2014I thought, \u201cWow; I probably missed a lot by giving an answer instead of really, as they float that question, kind of digging into that and asking a little more, and not making assumptions that all they need to do is do these two little things that will fix the problem\u201d; you know? \u201cWell, what\u2019s it look like? How are you respecting him?\u201d I\u2019m realizing\/I wonder if I shut some women down from being able to really voice what they\u2019re feeling and what they\u2019re experiencing.\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>I think we all do that because we lack the imagination. What\u2019s happening in these homes is so\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Well, we want to assume the best.\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>Right, and we cannot assume that level of depravity and evil. Until I began to listen to these stories\/these things that these women have told me, I could not have imagined that another human being, let alone one that\u2019s pledged to love you, would perpetrate such acts on someone.\n\nI think for the rest of us, who live in even lousy marriages or a wonderful marriage, like I do, we cannot imagine the horrors. I think it\u2019s a problem of imagination on our end.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Here\u2019s the question. I think a Christian woman\u2014that maybe is in a marriage that\u2019s physically abusive, sexually abusive, or just coercive control to a <em>bad<\/em> extreme\u2014she\u2019s living under: \u201cI need to love him,\u201d \u201cI need to respect him unconditionally.\u201d I\u2019ve probably preached things that would make her think that: \u201cI need to forgive him. Christ has forgiven me; I need to forgive him, so I just stay here and take it,\u201d or at least, \u201cI\u2019m honoring God by doing that.\u201d Is that a right perspective? Is that completely wrong?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>Yes; I think that\u2019s a complex issue\u2014right?\u2014because we don\u2019t know how to respond to abuse. Sometimes we want to\/we want victims to always bring things into light. If you\u2019re being mistreated and sinned against, it\u2019s actually a higher act of love to bring your spouse\u2019s sin to their attention\u2014and maybe that\u2019s not safe, so that\u2019s what makes abuse complex\u2014but to bring it into the light.\n\nBut it also distorts your own relationship with the Lord. If you think that He\u2019s subjecting you to be treated that way, it affects how you think about the Lord\u2019s love of you and your worth as a person\/as His precious child.\n\nIt is a balance of saying: \u201cYes, we try to be respectful; we want to love our spouses even when they\u2019re sinning,\u201d \u201cBut when there\u2019s such brutal sin, we also have to think about safety; we have to think about exposing sin.\u201d It gets really complex; there isn\u2019t a simple answer.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes, I know that I have learned, over 30 years of preaching, and I didn\u2019t know this early\u2014Bob, it would be interesting to hear if you feel the same way, as a teacher of the Word of God\u2014whenever I\u2019m addressing the issue of forgiveness, I have to address that woman, or maybe that man. I always think of that woman, who\u2019s listening to me, who\u2019s maybe being abused, and all she\u2019s hearing me say is: \u201cYou have to forgive. At some point, you have to forgive,\u201d rather than saying, \u201cYou need to forgive, and that\u2019s an issue; but you need to get safe first, if you\u2019re in a home\u2026\u201d I have to say that every time.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u201cJust a footnote; I just want to make clear: if you\u2019re sitting here, and you\u2019re in a home and your husband\u2019s physically abusing you, I\u2019m not saying\u2014you\u2019re going to have to forgive him eventually\u2014but you need to, right now, get safe. The first thing is get safe.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When I was writing <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em>, and got to the end of  passage in\n\n1 Corinthians 13 that says, \u201cLove bears all things, endures all things,\u201d and you have to pause and go, \u201cWhat\u2019s that mean?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Bob,  does that mean? You wrote a book on it.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Right; what does that mean?\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, in  moment, you knew you have to be able to say, \u201cTime out. It does not mean you bear abuse.\u201d I said I think pretty much what you\u2019re saying here, Darby: \u201cYou\u2019re not loving someone well when you\u2019re enabling them to continue in a besetting sin pattern that is destructive to them and their soul. To blow a whistle and say, \u2018We have to have help for you for this pattern that I\u2019m being oppressed by you. You\u2019re being an oppressor.\u2019 That\u2019s bold, courageous love. \u2018Bear all things and endure all things,\u2019 does not mean you continue to bear physical violence or endure physical violence.\u201d\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>I like to encourage them and say, \u201cIf the Lord chooses to sanctify them, and they are redeemed, they will be <em>grateful<\/em> that you stopped the harm that they were doing.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I would add the Scripture, Ephesians 5:22, about \u201cWives, submit to your husbands.\u201d I mean, I always have to add that, too; submission does not mean that we let our husbands abuse us in any way.\n\nDarby, you also talk about different kinds of abuse. Walk through some of those, because some I\u2019ve never really thought about as being abuse.\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>Yes; I think one that we don\u2019t tend to think about in the church, which is odd because it\u2019s very prevalent in the church, is spiritual abuse. I remember one woman had about six kids; she\u2019d come in and she was, again, just really struggling with depression. They thought maybe it was just the kids that were too much.\n\nI just asked her, \u201cHow is your husband\u201d\u2014he was a pastor-in-training at the time\u2014\u201cpraying for you?\u201d She just told me, \u201cHe rehearsed this prayer over me that just was saying, \u2018Help me tolerate what God cannot stand. You\u2019ve given me this wife, who is wasteful, is not tending to her little sheep.\u2019\u201d She went on for ten minutes with Scripture quotes infused\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014that he would pray over her!\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>\u2014that he  pray over her. That\u2019s who she believed she was\u2014just a disappointment to the Lord and a complete failure\u2014it was so difficult, because she could see those words in Scripture.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong> did you say to her?\u2014like do you get riled up inside?\u2014I would. [Laughter] I\u2019m sure you don\u2019t, because you\u2019re professional.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You are, right now, riled!\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I am!\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It\u2019s like, \u201cLet me at him!\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I know, but you wouldn\u2019t; so how do you respond to that?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>I think it does depend on the person: sometimes, I\u2019ll just say, \u201cThat\u2019s not okay\u201d; sometimes, I\u2019ll just have tears streaming down my face: \u201cThis is breaking my heart\u201d; other times, I have to go really slow, because I can see a victim\u2019s blindness. If I push too hard, that\u2019ll have her clam up.\n\nIt really is; it\u2019s hard, because there\u2019s everything in me that wants to be a rescuer\u2014and pick them up and say, \u201cGet out, at least for a time being, and get safe; and know that the Lord loves you, and this is wrong,\u201d\u2014but it usually takes me about probably eight months to a year.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Wow; what happens when she sees the light? Is there a point, where you think, \u201cOh, she has it\u201d?\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>When she can tell her story in a coherent way, using consistent categories\u2014not making excuses\/not blaming herself\u2014that\u2019s usually a really good sign that she sees: \u201cThis is not my fault. This is not how God designed marriage, and I <em>need<\/em> help.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>In that  she is enlightened to the point that she can see what her husband\u2019s doing; but he doesn\u2019t, so he\u2019s going to keep doing it\u2014what happened? Did she leave him for a time? Did she stay and just\u2014\n\n<strong>Darby: <\/strong>In this particular case, she didn\u2019t. We spent a long season in prayer. I always say, \u201cWe really want to ask the Lord; you\u2019ll know what to do when you\u2019re confident the Lord is calling you to do it.\u201d It just took her awhile, again, to have the courage to speak. What we eventually did is\u2014we sat with her pastor; we told him the story\u2014and then they started discipling her husband a little bit at a time. After six months, he became really resistant to that. Then it was clear that a separation was needed for him, actually, and his spiritual walk with the Lord.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You identify different categories of abuse in the book. We\u2019ve talked about physical abuse, about emotional abuse, about financial abuse, which is interesting; we\u2019ve talked about spiritual abuse. We\u2019ve had an extended conversation about sexual abuse, which is something you\u2019ve referred to. In fact, if our listeners are interested, they can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com and listen to that conversation, which we thought was more appropriate to have off-air rather than on-air. I think these categories are so helpful.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I think this is a great topic to discuss; because a lot of us, as women, are involved in Bible studies or are leaders of Bible studies. We have great friendships with women, and I think it\u2019s good just to be aware of this topic. This could be going on; and we need ways in which, not only can we pray, but we can look at this book and say, \u201cThese are some things that I could do to help my friend.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; the book is  <em>Is It Abuse?: A Biblical Guide to Identifying Domestic Abuse and Helping Victims<\/em>. We have Darby\u2019s book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. This is a book that will be helpful for pastors and counselors, but I think it\u2019s also helpful for any of us who have friends; or maybe we\u2019re trying to determine if our own relationship is actually an abusive relationship. Get a copy of Darby\u2019s book; go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order your copy, or call us at 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nYou  these are important conversations to have. I wish those of you who listen regularly to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> could be here, when we have conversations like this, to read the emails\/to hear the voices of those, who contact us and say, \u201cWhat you were talking about today is what I\u2019m living with, and thank you for being there for me. Thank you for providing clarity and hope. Pray for me,\u201d\u2014and we do pray for people, regularly, who are going through stuff like this\u2014\u201cThank you for the resources you make available.\u201d\n\nI just want to say to those of you who support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, on behalf of  who contact us, thank you for making this ministry possible for them. That\u2019s what your donations do; you\u2019re helping to effectively develop godly marriages and families.\n\nThis  if you\u2019re able to help with a donation, we\u2019d love to send you a copy of the book we talked about earlier this week, the book <em>Not Yet Married<\/em>, by Marshall Segal, about the pursuit of joy in singleness and in dating. Maybe you know somebody, who\u2019s single or dating, and you\u2019d like to pass this book along to them. Maybe that\u2019s your circumstance. Marshall\u2019s book is our thank-you gift when you make a donation today. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to make an online donation, or call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate.\n\nWe hope you can join us, again, tomorrow when we\u2019re going to continue talking about abusers\u2014or the biblical term, an oppressor\u2014someone who is an oppressor in a marriage relationship. Darby Strickland will be back with us again tomorrow. I hope you can be with us as well.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch. We got some extra added help from Bruce Goff; and of course, our entire broadcast production team was involved. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> of Little Rock, Arkansas;\n\na Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. 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