{"id":306731,"date":"2021-02-16T07:00:04","date_gmt":"2021-02-16T12:00:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/help-im-married-to-a-toxic-spouse\/"},"modified":"2021-02-16T07:00:04","modified_gmt":"2021-02-16T12:00:04","slug":"help-im-married-to-a-toxic-spouse","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/help-im-married-to-a-toxic-spouse\/","title":{"rendered":"Help! I&#8217;m Married to a Toxic Spouse!"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Gary Thomas explains that when a spouse is controlling or has a murderous spirit, it might be necessary, in some circumstances, to walk away. Thomas contrasts a toxic marriage from a difficult marriage.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-02-16.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:33","filesize":"25.23M","filesize_raw":"26451511","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848,2873],"tags":[6806],"podcast_series":[8323],"cwp_profile":[3158],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306731","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","category-mental-and-emotional-issues","tag-toxic-people","podcast_series-when-to-walk-away","cwp_profile-gary-thomas","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306731\/help-im-married-to-a-toxic-spouse","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306731\/help-im-married-to-a-toxic-spouse","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"IX0FB8ovvG\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/help-im-married-to-a-toxic-spouse\/\">Help! I&#8217;m Married to a Toxic Spouse!<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/help-im-married-to-a-toxic-spouse\/embed\/#?secret=IX0FB8ovvG\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Help! I&#8217;m Married to a Toxic Spouse!&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"IX0FB8ovvG\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-02-16.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-02-16.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>There are people in our lives, who thrive on division and dissension; Gary Thomas says they are<em> toxic <\/em>people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> They love anger, rage, malice, slander, filthy language, and lying. They come alive when they are in a battle. They come alive when they are <em>whispering<\/em> about someone. They come alive when they are attacking someone. It makes them feel like they have purpose\/like they have mission. Those are things where my senses go up now, and I\u2019m realizing, \u201cI think I may be dealing with a toxic person.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, February 16<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. When you heard that description of toxic people, you may have thought about people you know. So what do you do if there are people in your life who are toxic? We\u2019re going to talk today with Gary Thomas about what the Bible says we ought to do. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I think probably all of us can look back on relationships in our lives, where we would say: \u201cThis relationship was draining,\u201d \u201cThis relationship took life from me; did not give life to me.\u201d There are marriages\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014where husbands and wives do find themselves [where] a spouse is draining another person of life\u2014is controlling or, as we\u2019ve already heard this week, has what we described as a murderous spirit: with words and assault, they are just attacking another person. What do you do in that situation? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, that\u2019s what we\u2019re exploring this week with our friend, Gary Thomas, who is joining us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Gary, welcome back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> Thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Gary is an author. He is the writer-in-residence at Second Baptist Church in Houston, where he preaches from time to time and is also freed up to think, and write, and speak into the lives of\u2014not only that congregation\u2014but that\u2019s a gift, really\/Second Baptist has, not only given you a gift, buy they\u2019ve given the body of Christ a gift by giving you the time to write these things and helping to support that so that we can benefit from this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> I am so grateful for Second and Dr. Young, and what they\u2019ve done and what they\u2019ve allowed me to be able to do. I am so, so grateful. It\u2019s a tremendous gift that I think they are giving out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Gary has written a new book called <em>When to Walk Away<\/em> that is all about how we find freedom from toxic people. We\u2019ve spent some time defining that this week. You\u2019ve already talked about how these are people, who are controlling; people who will\u2014you use the term, \u201ca murderous spirit,\u201d who are attacking\/they are taking life from you in emotional ways; and people, who are energized by hate and anger, and are drawn to it, and add fuel to it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen those qualities are in another person, we can say, \u201cThat\u2019s not going to be a healthy, life-giving relationship.\u201d I\u2019m thinking of what Jesus said about the thief coming to kill and steal and destroy. Some relationships we have kill and steal and destroy, and Jesus came to give life and give it abundantly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think the question, Gary\u2014and you get into this in the second half of your book\u2014\u201cWhat do you do if you are in a marriage, and you look and you go, \u2018This marriage is draining life from me.\u2019\u201d You\u2019re not advocating that you wake up one morning and diagnosis: \u201cI think my spouse is toxic, so I guess I should walk away\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> No; but I believe there are times when, to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, we may have to walk away. Bob, this was the most difficult part of me understanding this idea; because I have <em>devoted<\/em> my life to holding marriages together to see healing; but when a toxic person continues to be toxic, and is destroying someone\u2019s soul, it\u2019s not just the marriage that is at issue. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf we value someone\u2019s mission\u2014if we are all called to seek first the kingdom of God; that\u2019s Matthew 6:33 from the Sermon on the Mount\u2014more than I am to seek first a marriage, more than I am to seek first maintaining a relationship with a child, more than I am to seek first anything\u2014God has equipped me; He\u2019s called me. He\u2019s called <em>all<\/em> of His children into a certain thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOnce I saw the concept of Jesus walking away, and looked at the Scriptures where Jesus addresses this, my eyes were opened. There may be a few circumstances\u2014and I think we need to be careful, but there may be some\u2014when we have to walk away, even in parenting and marriage. One for me is Matthew 10:34-39, when Jesus said this: \u201cDo not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. A man\u2019s enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. Anyone who loves their son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. Anyone who does not take up their cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhile faith does hold families together\u2014and shared faith in Jesus creates an intimacy that nothing else can match\u2014Jesus says our allegiance to Him is such that, if somebody is anti-God, they are going to become anti-us if they won\u2019t surrender to the Lord. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>There was another occasion in Luke 14 that\u2019s even more explicit to marriage, when Jesus said, \u201cIf anyone comes to Me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, even their own life, such a person cannot be My disciple. Whoever does not carry their cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, the word, \u201chate,\u201d there in the Greek is a comparison word that means: \u201cIn comparison to <em>any<\/em> other allegiance in your life, it\u2019s not even close; our faith to Jesus is above our relationship with our kids, our parents, our in-laws, and even our spouse.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It\u2019s the pearl of great price. We\u2019d sell everything to have that pearl. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> So, if a man or if a woman is destroying someone, where the life is being sucked out them, where they are opposing their efforts as God seeks to serve them; usually, what I\u2019ve found is, eventually, the toxic person will go. But in some circumstances, what I\u2019ve found is that people who are particularly evil will know enough of the Scripture\u2014usually, \u201cJudge not and you will not be judged.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> It\u2019s 90 percent of the Bible they know. They\u2019ll use it to keep somebody in the marriage, not because they want to renew their marriage, but they want to preserve the platform for abuse. That\u2019s where I think, as pastors and leaders, we need to have our eyes open: when people love hate\/when they get a sick thrill out of abusing someone and squeezing the life out of a fellow believer.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere came a point in my understanding when I said, \u201cMy call as a Christian is first to oppose evil and, sometimes, in rare circumstances, but necessary circumstances, divorce can be a tool.\u201d I <em>hate<\/em> divorce as a weapon; I hate when divorce is used inappropriately\u2014it leaves somebody devastated; it hurts someone. And that\u2019s where I think it is used most of the time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> But in a few cases, where there is true toxicity and certainly where there is abuse, I believe that divorce can be a tool to remove that platform of abuse and toxicity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> But you\u2019re not saying I could walk into a pastor\u2019s office and say, \u201cI think I have grounds for divorce, because my wife is toxic.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> No; I think that\u2019s where the church gets involved. And I\u2019ve seen some churches that have done this really well. My understanding\u2014Tony Evans\u2019 church\u2014they have a counselor whom they can go to in the church. And the church counselor can say, \u201cYou know, this is a normal conflict in marriage. He\u2019s not acting like a toxic person. He\u2019s acting like a guy.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> Or they can give her objective truth, and say, \u201cYou know what? This is not how a guy acts; this is a toxic act.\u201d Or the same thing with the wife, because some guys have torn their hair out. If the marriage goes wrong, a lot of people assume the guy is at fault. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> There can be toxic women as well as toxic men.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is so important; and I think we need to just stress this, both for individuals and for churches. First of all, for individuals: \u201cYou don\u2019t make an isolated, independent diagnosis of toxicity and act on it. You get the community of faith; you get church leaders\/godly men involved. Let them speak into this; let them help diagnose. Let them help guide you in this situation.\u201d That\u2019s <em>so<\/em> critical.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBy the same token, we\u2019ve got to say to church leaders; because I\u2019ve heard the stories of women, who come and say, \u201cMy husband is being abusive,\u201d and the church leaders say, \u201cWell, you just need to submit.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We have just got to say to church leaders: \u201cNo; guarding, and guiding, and protecting the sheep who come to you\u2014the vulnerable sheep\u2014and putting somebody back in both physically and emotionally dangerous situations, without coming alongside and being a protector to that person, is an abuse to your responsibility as a shepherd of the flock.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf the church is functioning the way it should, a husband or wife should be able to come and say, \u201cWill you help me here? I don\u2019t know what to do. This is my circumstance\u2026\u201d You come alongside, and you help!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> The first question I ask is safety: \u201cDo you feel safe?\u201d If they don\u2019t, immediately, you\u2019re getting the person out of there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA situation where it worked\u2014where the threat of divorce became a tool\u2014was a very controlling couple I mention in the book, where he controlled every aspect of her life. He started tracking wherever she was, and he would ask her if she went out of her routine. She was losing her mind. I could go on more; but anybody would recognize it as extreme control, where she felt oppressed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> She just said, \u201cI\u2019m going to lose my mind.\u201d I looked at him, and I said, \u201cIs this true?\u201d I was shocked; he said, \u201cEverything she told you is 100 percent true.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> Well, she had already gotten papers in order with a lawyer. She\u2019d rented a little apartment. I looked at him, and I said, \u201cIf you want to see things change, you need to go to the apartment not her.\u201d He loved his house. I said, \u201cYou did this; you\u2019re the one who needs to sit in the little apartment. She gets to be in the house. Control is over; you cannot contact her unless she contacts you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey did it. He told me, \u201cGary, when you said that to me, that will be the hardest thing I\u2019ve ever done,\u201d\u2014because when you are used to controlling someone\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> \u2014and <em>they<\/em> get to determine when and where you meet, and how you talk, and whatnot. Today, they love each other. They have an entirely new marriage. She said, \u201cEvery aspect of our marriage: our friends, where we go out to eat.\u201d She is able to minister in a way she hasn\u2019t before. She said, \u201cIt has improved our sexual intimacy,\u201d because the control was stopped. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, the difference is that was a guy, who was truly repentant: holding himself accountable; putting himself before the Lord, on his face\u2014he said \u201cLord, remake me; renew me,\u201d\u2014and then, the toxic behavior was rooted out. We have to make a distinction, I believe, between toxic behavior and a person who has given themselves over to toxicity. In this case, he was able to address the behavior with extremes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And in this case, it was the threat of possibly losing his marriage that finally woke him up to: \u201cThis is serious\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> She had been asking him for ten years, and what happened is, it got worse and worse. When she found out about the tracking, that\u2019s when it was just, \u201cWait a minute. I feel like I\u2019m living in Big Brother\u2019s world,\u201d and she was. She did him a favor in the sense that he would say, today, he so much happier; he is so much renewed. It\u2019s brought joy, because toxic behavior <em>destroys<\/em> us. Again, if we enjoy being toxic; we have dark souls. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Here is a question I think that that story raises: he was changed, so a toxic person was transformed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m a person married, or in a close relationship with somebody that is toxic. I hear that, and I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m never going to lose hope. I\u2019m going to keep staying in. I just heard a story of this man and this woman changing, so I\u2019m not going to give up,\u201d even though it\u2019s getting worse and worse. What do you say to that person? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019ve seen some people being destroyed, inside-out. When they go through the divorce, they become a new person. There is a flood of ministry on the other side; there is a light and a life. There is a difference in their countenance, because they\u2019ve [been] under this oppressive, evil situation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the signs of toxicity that we didn\u2019t really talk about is gas lighting, where a toxic person can make a Christian feel like they are crazy for honest, clear, and true observations: \u201cOf course, I\u2019m not having an affair! There is something wrong with you that makes you think I\u2019m having\u2026\u201d Then, of course, you find out they were. You\u2019re murdering the person\u2019s sanity when you are doing it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen some people don\u2019t repent, it\u2019s hard for them to understand. It wasn\u2019t until I got into the chapter about the skeleton of Scripture about the reality of evil. The Fall has affected us in every way. For some people, they want that platform of abuse. They don\u2019t care about repairing the marriage; they don\u2019t care about their spouse. They care about having a platform to terrorize someone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s where I think a pastor, a friend, or a Christian leader has to be the shepherd that says, \u201cYou\u2019re being preyed upon. I see it; here is what others see\u2026a professional counselor can see it,\u201d and encouraging them to find refuge, and pastors, and health. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We did an interview years ago; and in fact, this is available on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com if folks want to listen to the podcast. This marked me and helped me think about these kinds of relationships. Dan Allender and Tremper Longman wrote a book called <em>Bold Love<\/em>. In that book, they said there are really three kinds of people who will sin against you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey said there is a garden-variety sinner. We\u2019re all married to sinners; so you can expect your spouse is going to sin against you, because you married a sinner and you\u2019re a sinner. Then the second person is a fool. A fool is kind of one grade up from a garden-variety sinner. This is somebody, who is in patterns of sin and acting out their foolishness, and it just continues. But they said there is a third person, and that\u2019s an evil person. We have to recognize that some people go beyond foolishness, and they\u2019re consumed with evil. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, when you\u2019re talking about toxic behavior, we\u2019re not talking about a garden-variety sinner\u2014a husband, who is listening, going, \u201cYou know, my wife is annoying me. Maybe she\u2019s toxic,\u201d\u2014okay, we\u2019re all annoying; right? That doesn\u2019t mean we\u2019re toxic. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is a difference between a garden-variety sinner and being a toxic person. There\u2019s even a difference between somebody who is in foolish behavior, over and over again, and a toxic person. [With] a toxic person, there is an edge of evil that is associated with that. This is not something that is cured by subtle means. This is something that you need drastic action to try to intervene. Sometimes, your best efforts are going to fall short. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> Scripture makes room for what you just said. There are Scriptures that say, \u201cObey the government, because God respects authority,\u201d but there are times when we can\u2019t obey the government. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> \u201cChildren obey and honor your parents,\u201d \u201cFathers don\u2019t exasperate your children,\u201d \u201cWives submit to your husbands,\u201d \u201cHusbands never be harsh with your wives.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> \u201cLove them always.\u201d Whenever Scripture says, \u201cYou respect this sort of authority,\u201d it follows along with, \u201cas long as it\u2019s not soul-destroying,\u201d\/\u201cas long as it\u2019s respecting the ultimate authority of God.\u201d Our allegiance is to our Creator-God first and to how He set things up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe oppose evil when it enters every situation. The skeleton of Scripture\u2014I\u2019m leaving a few things out\u2014but it is creation, fall, and redemption. God created a good world: government, His creation; marriage, His creation; church authority, His creation; parenting, His creation. The evil penetrates every one of those. The Bible recognizes that and says, \u201cOkay; but in those cases, we oppose the evil. We don\u2019t let the institution abuse the person.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven something like the Sabbath. God instituted the Sabbath; and when Jesus came along, He said, \u201cYou\u2019re using the Sabbath to hurt people, not to help people; so we\u2019re going to reclaim what it means to have the Sabbath.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> I <em>completely<\/em> agree with what you say, and I think Scripture backs that up. We respect authority, but we <em>resist<\/em> evil. That\u2019s a tension that we can\u2019t let go of. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, Gary, I love all that. That\u2019s so profound and important for us to know, but why do we marry these toxic people? When you say the word, \u201cevil,\u201d do we not see that evilness before we get married? Does premarital counseling help us? What are the steps that we can take that we make sure that we don\u2019t marry a toxic person? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> That\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> question, but there is more than one answer to that. The challenge is\u2014toxic people are better at being toxic than we are at dealing with them, because they have been toxic their whole lives. They can fool people. They can look like a Casanova; he can look like a wonderful one. She can look like a woman that answers all of his dreams. Then, when they get that platform, you see what it was all about. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSome\u2014I have compassion; I just think they were fooled\u2014you\u2019re in your early 20s or something; you don\u2019t have the experience in life. Somebody sweeps you off your feet\u2014you have a silly marriage within three months of meeting each other\u2014and you can be in that situation where you have been fooled. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOther times, it\u2019s just psychological conditioning. If you had an abusive parent, sometimes, that\u2019s what feels comfortable in your relationships. You feel comfortable with a guy that\u2019s a little abusive or a woman that\u2019s a little bit abusive, and you were set up for that. Again, I feel for those people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOthers, I think, you just miss it; we don\u2019t think of toxic people. I have to admit, I thought it would be a <em>sin<\/em> to label people, \u201ctoxic,\u201d earlier in my life until I realized the importance. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014because Jesus loves them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> Yes! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> Right, or I think I can change them. Or I think, \u201cWe can make this work,\u201d or =\u201cThese feelings are so strong that we\u2019re out of our minds.\u201d It\u2019s what neurologists call idealization. When we\u2019re infatuated, we create somebody who doesn\u2019t exist. We\u2019re blinded to their weaknesses, and we create strengths that they don\u2019t really have. I think there are a lot of reasons like that, which is why we want to make a distinction between a <em>difficult<\/em> marriage and a toxic marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn one sense, we are all incompatible; we\u2019re going to have difficulties to work through. That is the message of <em>Sacred Marriage<\/em>; it\u2019s the message of <em>Vertical Marriage<\/em>. That, basically, God grows us through the challenges of marriage. The difference is that you can grow in a difficult marriage; you can become more patient, more understanding, humbler, gentler. Toxicity is not where you\u2019re growing; it\u2019s where you\u2019re being destroyed. You feel like you\u2019re losing your mind. You wake up in fear; it\u2019s impacting your health; you can\u2019t have other healthy relationships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know what I\u2019ve seen in so many people married to toxic people?\u2014the spouse that\u2019s toxic ends up making that almost their only relationship. They cut them off from their friends; they cut them off from their own parents; they cut them off from people at church. It takes years, but they realize they are just sort of like that wolf isolating the sheep to have their evil pleasure with it. That\u2019s where we need to, as friends and leaders, recognize what the toxic symptoms are and say, \u201cOkay, I need to speak some truth to you. This isn\u2019t a difficult marriage. This is a toxic marriage, and we need to figure out where you go from here.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s so key. You could be listening to this right now and thinking, \u201cOh, my goodness! I\u2019m in a toxic marriage. I\u2019m out. I didn\u2019t know it until I heard this program. Now, I am.\u201d I would say\/I think we\u2019d all say; right?\u2014\u201cYou need to go get community\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cto help you make that decision. Don\u2019t make that decision by yourself. Even if it is extremely toxic, still bring some friends in; bring the church in. That\u2019s why God gave us the church, to say, \u2018Give me your eyes. Is this what I think it is?\u2019 and get really wise biblical counseling.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs a pastor, I say this all the time: \u201cYou need to get safe, first, and community. You need to remove yourself so that you\u2019re safe and, then, get wisdom from others.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I know you had to feel, even in writing this book, you didn\u2019t want to write something that causes people to easily say, \u201cI\u2019m annoyed; therefore, you\u2019re toxic.\u201d There is a danger in that for somebody, who is self-focused, to just think any annoyance is toxic behavior. You\u2019re describing something much deeper\/much more aggressive. It\u2019s at the evil level that we talked about earlier. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019d just encourage people to get a copy of the book to read through it prayerfully; read through it in community; read through it so you can get help. If you\u2019re in a relationship that you think is toxic because\u2014as you say in the book and as we\u2019ve already said this week\u2014we\u2019re talking about your kingdom impact and what Jesus put you on the earth to do. If toxic relationships are inhibiting kingdom impact, then we have to look and say, \u201cThe kingdom of God is what we\u2019re here for, and we need to clear away those things that are keeping us from kingdom purposes.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is tricky; and again, Gary, you\u2019ve handled it well in your book, <em>When to Walk Away<\/em>. We\u2019re making that book available this week to <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>listeners who can help support the ministry with a donation. Your financial support\u2014as you support the ongoing work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em><em>\u00ad<\/em><em>\u00ad<\/em><em>\u2014<\/em>is vital. You make, not only not only this daily radio program possible, you make everything we do at FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> possible: through our website, through our events, our resources; all that we\u2019re about as a ministry. You make that happen when you support this program. If you could make a donation today, be sure to ask for a copy of Gary Thomas\u2019s book, <em>When to Walk Away: Finding Freedom from Toxic People. <\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate: 1-800-FL-TODAY is the number. Again, go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to make an online donation, and request your copy of Gary Thomas\u2019s book, <em>When to Walk Away<\/em>; or you can request the book when you call to donate. Our number, again, is 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we want to talk about the very delicate subject of how we handle family members who\/the relationship might have gotten toxic. Do you just cut yourself off from those family members? How do you handle that? Gary Thomas joins us, again, tomorrow. I hope you can join us as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, who got some help from Bruce Goff on today\u2019s program, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:27:33"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["25.23M"],"filesize_raw":["26451511"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-306731.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-306731.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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Thomas explains that when a spouse is controlling or has a murderous spirit, it might be necessary, in some circumstances, to walk away. Thomas contrasts a toxic marriage from a difficult marriage.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-02-16.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>There are people in our lives, who thrive on division and dissension; Gary Thomas says they are<em> toxic <\/em>people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> They love anger, rage, malice, slander, filthy language, and lying. They come alive when they are in a battle. They come alive when they are <em>whispering<\/em> about someone. They come alive when they are attacking someone. It makes them feel like they have purpose\/like they have mission. Those are things where my senses go up now, and I\u2019m realizing, \u201cI think I may be dealing with a toxic person.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, February 16<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. When you heard that description of toxic people, you may have thought about people you know. So what do you do if there are people in your life who are toxic? We\u2019re going to talk today with Gary Thomas about what the Bible says we ought to do. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I think probably all of us can look back on relationships in our lives, where we would say: \u201cThis relationship was draining,\u201d \u201cThis relationship took life from me; did not give life to me.\u201d There are marriages\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014where husbands and wives do find themselves [where] a spouse is draining another person of life\u2014is controlling or, as we\u2019ve already heard this week, has what we described as a murderous spirit: with words and assault, they are just attacking another person. What do you do in that situation? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, that\u2019s what we\u2019re exploring this week with our friend, Gary Thomas, who is joining us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Gary, welcome back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> Thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Gary is an author. He is the writer-in-residence at Second Baptist Church in Houston, where he preaches from time to time and is also freed up to think, and write, and speak into the lives of\u2014not only that congregation\u2014but that\u2019s a gift, really\/Second Baptist has, not only given you a gift, buy they\u2019ve given the body of Christ a gift by giving you the time to write these things and helping to support that so that we can benefit from this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> I am so grateful for Second and Dr. Young, and what they\u2019ve done and what they\u2019ve allowed me to be able to do. I am so, so grateful. It\u2019s a tremendous gift that I think they are giving out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Gary has written a new book called <em>When to Walk Away<\/em> that is all about how we find freedom from toxic people. We\u2019ve spent some time defining that this week. You\u2019ve already talked about how these are people, who are controlling; people who will\u2014you use the term, \u201ca murderous spirit,\u201d who are attacking\/they are taking life from you in emotional ways; and people, who are energized by hate and anger, and are drawn to it, and add fuel to it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen those qualities are in another person, we can say, \u201cThat\u2019s not going to be a healthy, life-giving relationship.\u201d I\u2019m thinking of what Jesus said about the thief coming to kill and steal and destroy. Some relationships we have kill and steal and destroy, and Jesus came to give life and give it abundantly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think the question, Gary\u2014and you get into this in the second half of your book\u2014\u201cWhat do you do if you are in a marriage, and you look and you go, \u2018This marriage is draining life from me.\u2019\u201d You\u2019re not advocating that you wake up one morning and diagnosis: \u201cI think my spouse is toxic, so I guess I should walk away\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> No; but I believe there are times when, to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, we may have to walk away. Bob, this was the most difficult part of me understanding this idea; because I have <em>devoted<\/em> my life to holding marriages together to see healing; but when a toxic person continues to be toxic, and is destroying someone\u2019s soul, it\u2019s not just the marriage that is at issue. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf we value someone\u2019s mission\u2014if we are all called to seek first the kingdom of God; that\u2019s Matthew 6:33 from the Sermon on the Mount\u2014more than I am to seek first a marriage, more than I am to seek first maintaining a relationship with a child, more than I am to seek first anything\u2014God has equipped me; He\u2019s called me. He\u2019s called <em>all<\/em> of His children into a certain thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOnce I saw the concept of Jesus walking away, and looked at the Scriptures where Jesus addresses this, my eyes were opened. There may be a few circumstances\u2014and I think we need to be careful, but there may be some\u2014when we have to walk away, even in parenting and marriage. One for me is Matthew 10:34-39, when Jesus said this: \u201cDo not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. A man\u2019s enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. Anyone who loves their son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. Anyone who does not take up their cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhile faith does hold families together\u2014and shared faith in Jesus creates an intimacy that nothing else can match\u2014Jesus says our allegiance to Him is such that, if somebody is anti-God, they are going to become anti-us if they won\u2019t surrender to the Lord. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>There was another occasion in Luke 14 that\u2019s even more explicit to marriage, when Jesus said, \u201cIf anyone comes to Me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, even their own life, such a person cannot be My disciple. Whoever does not carry their cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, the word, \u201chate,\u201d there in the Greek is a comparison word that means: \u201cIn comparison to <em>any<\/em> other allegiance in your life, it\u2019s not even close; our faith to Jesus is above our relationship with our kids, our parents, our in-laws, and even our spouse.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It\u2019s the pearl of great price. We\u2019d sell everything to have that pearl. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> So, if a man or if a woman is destroying someone, where the life is being sucked out them, where they are opposing their efforts as God seeks to serve them; usually, what I\u2019ve found is, eventually, the toxic person will go. But in some circumstances, what I\u2019ve found is that people who are particularly evil will know enough of the Scripture\u2014usually, \u201cJudge not and you will not be judged.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> It\u2019s 90 percent of the Bible they know. They\u2019ll use it to keep somebody in the marriage, not because they want to renew their marriage, but they want to preserve the platform for abuse. That\u2019s where I think, as pastors and leaders, we need to have our eyes open: when people love hate\/when they get a sick thrill out of abusing someone and squeezing the life out of a fellow believer.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere came a point in my understanding when I said, \u201cMy call as a Christian is first to oppose evil and, sometimes, in rare circumstances, but necessary circumstances, divorce can be a tool.\u201d I <em>hate<\/em> divorce as a weapon; I hate when divorce is used inappropriately\u2014it leaves somebody devastated; it hurts someone. And that\u2019s where I think it is used most of the time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> But in a few cases, where there is true toxicity and certainly where there is abuse, I believe that divorce can be a tool to remove that platform of abuse and toxicity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> But you\u2019re not saying I could walk into a pastor\u2019s office and say, \u201cI think I have grounds for divorce, because my wife is toxic.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> No; I think that\u2019s where the church gets involved. And I\u2019ve seen some churches that have done this really well. My understanding\u2014Tony Evans\u2019 church\u2014they have a counselor whom they can go to in the church. And the church counselor can say, \u201cYou know, this is a normal conflict in marriage. He\u2019s not acting like a toxic person. He\u2019s acting like a guy.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> Or they can give her objective truth, and say, \u201cYou know what? This is not how a guy acts; this is a toxic act.\u201d Or the same thing with the wife, because some guys have torn their hair out. If the marriage goes wrong, a lot of people assume the guy is at fault. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> There can be toxic women as well as toxic men.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is so important; and I think we need to just stress this, both for individuals and for churches. First of all, for individuals: \u201cYou don\u2019t make an isolated, independent diagnosis of toxicity and act on it. You get the community of faith; you get church leaders\/godly men involved. Let them speak into this; let them help diagnose. Let them help guide you in this situation.\u201d That\u2019s <em>so<\/em> critical.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBy the same token, we\u2019ve got to say to church leaders; because I\u2019ve heard the stories of women, who come and say, \u201cMy husband is being abusive,\u201d and the church leaders say, \u201cWell, you just need to submit.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We have just got to say to church leaders: \u201cNo; guarding, and guiding, and protecting the sheep who come to you\u2014the vulnerable sheep\u2014and putting somebody back in both physically and emotionally dangerous situations, without coming alongside and being a protector to that person, is an abuse to your responsibility as a shepherd of the flock.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf the church is functioning the way it should, a husband or wife should be able to come and say, \u201cWill you help me here? I don\u2019t know what to do. This is my circumstance\u2026\u201d You come alongside, and you help!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> The first question I ask is safety: \u201cDo you feel safe?\u201d If they don\u2019t, immediately, you\u2019re getting the person out of there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA situation where it worked\u2014where the threat of divorce became a tool\u2014was a very controlling couple I mention in the book, where he controlled every aspect of her life. He started tracking wherever she was, and he would ask her if she went out of her routine. She was losing her mind. I could go on more; but anybody would recognize it as extreme control, where she felt oppressed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> She just said, \u201cI\u2019m going to lose my mind.\u201d I looked at him, and I said, \u201cIs this true?\u201d I was shocked; he said, \u201cEverything she told you is 100 percent true.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> Well, she had already gotten papers in order with a lawyer. She\u2019d rented a little apartment. I looked at him, and I said, \u201cIf you want to see things change, you need to go to the apartment not her.\u201d He loved his house. I said, \u201cYou did this; you\u2019re the one who needs to sit in the little apartment. She gets to be in the house. Control is over; you cannot contact her unless she contacts you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey did it. He told me, \u201cGary, when you said that to me, that will be the hardest thing I\u2019ve ever done,\u201d\u2014because when you are used to controlling someone\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> \u2014and <em>they<\/em> get to determine when and where you meet, and how you talk, and whatnot. Today, they love each other. They have an entirely new marriage. She said, \u201cEvery aspect of our marriage: our friends, where we go out to eat.\u201d She is able to minister in a way she hasn\u2019t before. She said, \u201cIt has improved our sexual intimacy,\u201d because the control was stopped. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, the difference is that was a guy, who was truly repentant: holding himself accountable; putting himself before the Lord, on his face\u2014he said \u201cLord, remake me; renew me,\u201d\u2014and then, the toxic behavior was rooted out. We have to make a distinction, I believe, between toxic behavior and a person who has given themselves over to toxicity. In this case, he was able to address the behavior with extremes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And in this case, it was the threat of possibly losing his marriage that finally woke him up to: \u201cThis is serious\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> She had been asking him for ten years, and what happened is, it got worse and worse. When she found out about the tracking, that\u2019s when it was just, \u201cWait a minute. I feel like I\u2019m living in Big Brother\u2019s world,\u201d and she was. She did him a favor in the sense that he would say, today, he so much happier; he is so much renewed. It\u2019s brought joy, because toxic behavior <em>destroys<\/em> us. Again, if we enjoy being toxic; we have dark souls. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Here is a question I think that that story raises: he was changed, so a toxic person was transformed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m a person married, or in a close relationship with somebody that is toxic. I hear that, and I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m never going to lose hope. I\u2019m going to keep staying in. I just heard a story of this man and this woman changing, so I\u2019m not going to give up,\u201d even though it\u2019s getting worse and worse. What do you say to that person? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019ve seen some people being destroyed, inside-out. When they go through the divorce, they become a new person. There is a flood of ministry on the other side; there is a light and a life. There is a difference in their countenance, because they\u2019ve [been] under this oppressive, evil situation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the signs of toxicity that we didn\u2019t really talk about is gas lighting, where a toxic person can make a Christian feel like they are crazy for honest, clear, and true observations: \u201cOf course, I\u2019m not having an affair! There is something wrong with you that makes you think I\u2019m having\u2026\u201d Then, of course, you find out they were. You\u2019re murdering the person\u2019s sanity when you are doing it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen some people don\u2019t repent, it\u2019s hard for them to understand. It wasn\u2019t until I got into the chapter about the skeleton of Scripture about the reality of evil. The Fall has affected us in every way. For some people, they want that platform of abuse. They don\u2019t care about repairing the marriage; they don\u2019t care about their spouse. They care about having a platform to terrorize someone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s where I think a pastor, a friend, or a Christian leader has to be the shepherd that says, \u201cYou\u2019re being preyed upon. I see it; here is what others see\u2026a professional counselor can see it,\u201d and encouraging them to find refuge, and pastors, and health. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We did an interview years ago; and in fact, this is available on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com if folks want to listen to the podcast. This marked me and helped me think about these kinds of relationships. Dan Allender and Tremper Longman wrote a book called <em>Bold Love<\/em>. In that book, they said there are really three kinds of people who will sin against you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey said there is a garden-variety sinner. We\u2019re all married to sinners; so you can expect your spouse is going to sin against you, because you married a sinner and you\u2019re a sinner. Then the second person is a fool. A fool is kind of one grade up from a garden-variety sinner. This is somebody, who is in patterns of sin and acting out their foolishness, and it just continues. But they said there is a third person, and that\u2019s an evil person. We have to recognize that some people go beyond foolishness, and they\u2019re consumed with evil. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, when you\u2019re talking about toxic behavior, we\u2019re not talking about a garden-variety sinner\u2014a husband, who is listening, going, \u201cYou know, my wife is annoying me. Maybe she\u2019s toxic,\u201d\u2014okay, we\u2019re all annoying; right? That doesn\u2019t mean we\u2019re toxic. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is a difference between a garden-variety sinner and being a toxic person. There\u2019s even a difference between somebody who is in foolish behavior, over and over again, and a toxic person. [With] a toxic person, there is an edge of evil that is associated with that. This is not something that is cured by subtle means. This is something that you need drastic action to try to intervene. Sometimes, your best efforts are going to fall short. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> Scripture makes room for what you just said. There are Scriptures that say, \u201cObey the government, because God respects authority,\u201d but there are times when we can\u2019t obey the government. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> \u201cChildren obey and honor your parents,\u201d \u201cFathers don\u2019t exasperate your children,\u201d \u201cWives submit to your husbands,\u201d \u201cHusbands never be harsh with your wives.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> \u201cLove them always.\u201d Whenever Scripture says, \u201cYou respect this sort of authority,\u201d it follows along with, \u201cas long as it\u2019s not soul-destroying,\u201d\/\u201cas long as it\u2019s respecting the ultimate authority of God.\u201d Our allegiance is to our Creator-God first and to how He set things up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe oppose evil when it enters every situation. The skeleton of Scripture\u2014I\u2019m leaving a few things out\u2014but it is creation, fall, and redemption. God created a good world: government, His creation; marriage, His creation; church authority, His creation; parenting, His creation. The evil penetrates every one of those. The Bible recognizes that and says, \u201cOkay; but in those cases, we oppose the evil. We don\u2019t let the institution abuse the person.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven something like the Sabbath. God instituted the Sabbath; and when Jesus came along, He said, \u201cYou\u2019re using the Sabbath to hurt people, not to help people; so we\u2019re going to reclaim what it means to have the Sabbath.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> I <em>completely<\/em> agree with what you say, and I think Scripture backs that up. We respect authority, but we <em>resist<\/em> evil. That\u2019s a tension that we can\u2019t let go of. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, Gary, I love all that. That\u2019s so profound and important for us to know, but why do we marry these toxic people? When you say the word, \u201cevil,\u201d do we not see that evilness before we get married? Does premarital counseling help us? What are the steps that we can take that we make sure that we don\u2019t marry a toxic person? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> That\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> question, but there is more than one answer to that. The challenge is\u2014toxic people are better at being toxic than we are at dealing with them, because they have been toxic their whole lives. They can fool people. They can look like a Casanova; he can look like a wonderful one. She can look like a woman that answers all of his dreams. Then, when they get that platform, you see what it was all about. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSome\u2014I have compassion; I just think they were fooled\u2014you\u2019re in your early 20s or something; you don\u2019t have the experience in life. Somebody sweeps you off your feet\u2014you have a silly marriage within three months of meeting each other\u2014and you can be in that situation where you have been fooled. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOther times, it\u2019s just psychological conditioning. If you had an abusive parent, sometimes, that\u2019s what feels comfortable in your relationships. You feel comfortable with a guy that\u2019s a little abusive or a woman that\u2019s a little bit abusive, and you were set up for that. Again, I feel for those people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOthers, I think, you just miss it; we don\u2019t think of toxic people. I have to admit, I thought it would be a <em>sin<\/em> to label people, \u201ctoxic,\u201d earlier in my life until I realized the importance. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014because Jesus loves them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> Yes! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> Right, or I think I can change them. Or I think, \u201cWe can make this work,\u201d or =\u201cThese feelings are so strong that we\u2019re out of our minds.\u201d It\u2019s what neurologists call idealization. When we\u2019re infatuated, we create somebody who doesn\u2019t exist. We\u2019re blinded to their weaknesses, and we create strengths that they don\u2019t really have. I think there are a lot of reasons like that, which is why we want to make a distinction between a <em>difficult<\/em> marriage and a toxic marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn one sense, we are all incompatible; we\u2019re going to have difficulties to work through. That is the message of <em>Sacred Marriage<\/em>; it\u2019s the message of <em>Vertical Marriage<\/em>. That, basically, God grows us through the challenges of marriage. The difference is that you can grow in a difficult marriage; you can become more patient, more understanding, humbler, gentler. Toxicity is not where you\u2019re growing; it\u2019s where you\u2019re being destroyed. You feel like you\u2019re losing your mind. You wake up in fear; it\u2019s impacting your health; you can\u2019t have other healthy relationships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know what I\u2019ve seen in so many people married to toxic people?\u2014the spouse that\u2019s toxic ends up making that almost their only relationship. They cut them off from their friends; they cut them off from their own parents; they cut them off from people at church. It takes years, but they realize they are just sort of like that wolf isolating the sheep to have their evil pleasure with it. That\u2019s where we need to, as friends and leaders, recognize what the toxic symptoms are and say, \u201cOkay, I need to speak some truth to you. This isn\u2019t a difficult marriage. This is a toxic marriage, and we need to figure out where you go from here.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s so key. You could be listening to this right now and thinking, \u201cOh, my goodness! I\u2019m in a toxic marriage. I\u2019m out. I didn\u2019t know it until I heard this program. Now, I am.\u201d I would say\/I think we\u2019d all say; right?\u2014\u201cYou need to go get community\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cto help you make that decision. Don\u2019t make that decision by yourself. Even if it is extremely toxic, still bring some friends in; bring the church in. That\u2019s why God gave us the church, to say, \u2018Give me your eyes. Is this what I think it is?\u2019 and get really wise biblical counseling.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs a pastor, I say this all the time: \u201cYou need to get safe, first, and community. You need to remove yourself so that you\u2019re safe and, then, get wisdom from others.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I know you had to feel, even in writing this book, you didn\u2019t want to write something that causes people to easily say, \u201cI\u2019m annoyed; therefore, you\u2019re toxic.\u201d There is a danger in that for somebody, who is self-focused, to just think any annoyance is toxic behavior. You\u2019re describing something much deeper\/much more aggressive. It\u2019s at the evil level that we talked about earlier. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019d just encourage people to get a copy of the book to read through it prayerfully; read through it in community; read through it so you can get help. If you\u2019re in a relationship that you think is toxic because\u2014as you say in the book and as we\u2019ve already said this week\u2014we\u2019re talking about your kingdom impact and what Jesus put you on the earth to do. If toxic relationships are inhibiting kingdom impact, then we have to look and say, \u201cThe kingdom of God is what we\u2019re here for, and we need to clear away those things that are keeping us from kingdom purposes.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is tricky; and again, Gary, you\u2019ve handled it well in your book, <em>When to Walk Away<\/em>. We\u2019re making that book available this week to <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>listeners who can help support the ministry with a donation. Your financial support\u2014as you support the ongoing work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em><em>\u00ad<\/em><em>\u00ad<\/em><em>\u2014<\/em>is vital. You make, not only not only this daily radio program possible, you make everything we do at FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> possible: through our website, through our events, our resources; all that we\u2019re about as a ministry. You make that happen when you support this program. If you could make a donation today, be sure to ask for a copy of Gary Thomas\u2019s book, <em>When to Walk Away: Finding Freedom from Toxic People. <\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate: 1-800-FL-TODAY is the number. Again, go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to make an online donation, and request your copy of Gary Thomas\u2019s book, <em>When to Walk Away<\/em>; or you can request the book when you call to donate. Our number, again, is 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we want to talk about the very delicate subject of how we handle family members who\/the relationship might have gotten toxic. Do you just cut yourself off from those family members? How do you handle that? Gary Thomas joins us, again, tomorrow. I hope you can join us as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, who got some help from Bruce Goff on today\u2019s program, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. 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