{"id":306729,"date":"2021-02-15T07:00:06","date_gmt":"2021-02-15T12:00:06","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/playing-spiritual-defense\/"},"modified":"2021-02-15T07:00:06","modified_gmt":"2021-02-15T12:00:06","slug":"playing-spiritual-defense","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/playing-spiritual-defense\/","title":{"rendered":"Playing Spiritual Defense"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Sometimes it&#8217;s best to just walk away. That&#8217;s what best-selling author and pastor Gary Thomas wants you to know when facing toxic people. Thomas remembers learning this lesson after a particular blog post he wrote became popular. One woman made it her mission to discredit him and his family, any chance she could. After trying his best to appease the disgruntled woman, a friend of Gary&#8217;s suggested he read the book of Luke and count how many times Jesus walked away. To Gary&#8217;s amazement, Jesus walked away from people 41 times in the gospels. Thomas defines what a toxic person does, and explains the best way to deal with them.<\/p>\n<p>Show Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tDownload FamilyLife&#8217;s new app! https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/<br \/>\n \tFind resources from this podcast at https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130.<br \/>\n \tCheck out all that&#8217;s available on the FamilyLife Podcast Network.\u00a0 https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Sometimes it&#8217;s best to just walk away. That&#8217;s what Gary Thomas wants you to know when facing toxic people. Thomas explains how, in the gospels, Jesus walked away from people 41 times.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-02-15.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:09","filesize":"24.86M","filesize_raw":"26072453","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848,2873],"tags":[6806],"podcast_series":[8323],"cwp_profile":[3158],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306729","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","category-mental-and-emotional-issues","tag-toxic-people","podcast_series-when-to-walk-away","cwp_profile-gary-thomas","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306729\/playing-spiritual-defense","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306729\/playing-spiritual-defense","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"7RBFhqH2Nd\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/playing-spiritual-defense\/\">Playing Spiritual Defense<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/playing-spiritual-defense\/embed\/#?secret=7RBFhqH2Nd\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Playing Spiritual Defense&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"7RBFhqH2Nd\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-02-15.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-02-15.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>God designed relationships to be life-giving and life-affirming. Author and pastor, Gary Thomas, says some relationships are life-depleting; they\u2019re toxic.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>Toxic people want to control you: \u201cYou will do what I want you to do,\u201d \u201cI\u2019ll pretend to be your friend,\u201d \u201cI\u2019ll pretend I\u2019m in need,\u201d \u201cI\u2019ll pretend I\u2019m going to threaten you,\u201d \u201c4I\u2019ll pretend I\u2019m going to protect you from others.\u201d Whenever you\u2019re feeling controlled, demeaned, like they don\u2019t want you to do what you believe God has called you to do, that\u2019s a <em>big sign<\/em> that you\u2019re dealing with a toxic person.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, February 15<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. How can we recognize toxic relationships, and what do we do when we have one? We\u2019re going to talk more about that today with Gary Thomas. Stay tuned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. You guys know\u2014our listeners don\u2019t know\u2014but you guys know the amazing Tonda; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Tonda does\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Oh, we sure do.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>She is amazing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>She is amazing. She has, for more than 25 years, done research for <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. She\u2014I calculated this the other day\u2014she has to have read more than 2,000 books on marriage and family over the last 25 years, and she\u2019s a single woman; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>She\u2019s given us all kinds of data\/information; helped us out. She came to me\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014a month or so ago, and she said, \u201cGary Thomas has a new book coming out.\u201d I said, \u201cBook him.\u201d She said, \u201cDon\u2019t you even want to know what the title is or what he\u2026\u201d [Laughter] I said, \u201cI don\u2019t need to know. It\u2019s Gary Thomas. He\u2019s writing a book; it\u2019s going to be on relationships, because that\u2019s what he\u2019s on. It\u2019s going to be biblical; it\u2019s going to have wisdom.\u201d I mean, you don\u2019t need to know anything else; right?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Who doesn\u2019t want Gary Thomas?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>No-brainer!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Then I see what it\u2019s about and I go, \u201cWell, maybe we should have talked to him.\u201d [Laughter] Gary, welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>Thank you, Bob. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Gary has been a regular guest here since the book, <em>Sacred Marriage<\/em>, was released now 20 years ago?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>Twenty years ago.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Wow! I actually\/I read <em>Sacred Pathways<\/em> before I read <em>Sacred Marriage<\/em>, and that was so helpful on the whole subject of worship and different approaches to worship. I still think of that as one of those books I recommend to people. Since then, <em>Sacred Parenting<\/em>, <em>Sacred Influence<\/em>; you\u2019ve written 20 books, give or take. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>Yes; I don\u2019t really actually count, but I think it\u2019s at 20.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Gary has written a book called <em>When to Walk Away: Finding Freedom from Toxic People<\/em>. This is\u2014I mean, I\u2019m thinking about subjects you could tackle, and you\u2014I mean, I know you!\u2014this is kind of like, \u201cGary\u2019s writing about toxic people?\u201d because you\u2019re so nice.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u201cYou\u2019re so nice!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Exactly!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>Well, and that\u2019s how I got eaten up by toxic people. It was terribly prideful; but I had this false messianic complex\u2014that if I was walking in holiness, walking in wisdom, prayed up, surrendered to the Holy Spirit, had the right words and the right attitude\u2014that everybody I talked to would see the glory of Jesus and say, \u201cOf course, you\u2019re right,\u201d and turn to Him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe <em>see <\/em>Jesus\u2014what He\u2019s done in our life\u2014and we can think, \u201cWhy doesn\u2019t everybody <em>want<\/em> Him?\u201d That gave way then to some people taking advantage of that. It took me years until I learned, in addition to spiritual <em>offense<\/em>, you need to sometimes learn how to play spiritual <em>defense<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You had somebody come to you and say, \u201cWould you read my book and give me some feedback?\u201d\u2014right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>Well, it was really two. I\u2019d written a blog post on a particular issue, and it exploded. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>People were talking about it. You would think she would be happy, because it was sort of her issue. She said, \u201cThis is great. Here are two books you need to read to get up on it.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI said, \u201cYou know, this isn\u2019t going to be a ministry of mine; there are others that could address it more. It was a one-time blog post. I don\u2019t have time to read two full books. I\u2019m sure they\u2019re great books, but\u2026\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>In the meantime, I just didn\u2019t want to <em>lie<\/em>. <em>Boy<\/em>, talk about making an enemy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>She came after you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>She did attack reviews on Amazon and other books, and I\u2019ve never seen anything like it. Then what really shut it down and what opened up my eyes is when the attacks were on my wife.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Whoa!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>When they started doing <em>that<\/em>, that\u2019s easier for me\u2014even though I\u2019m a people- pleaser\u2014\u201cYou mess with my wife, and now I know where you\u2019re coming from.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Honestly, I thought about, as I was reading that story, I thought of the current environment on Twitter<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. I think more than on Facebook<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> or Instagram<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Twitter seems to be the breeding ground\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Twitter is the ground. I don\u2019t know why, but it is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014where it\u2019s just toxic relationships blossom and thrive on Twitter. People are daily having to block followers to avoid the kind of toxic engagement that you talk about in this book.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>To engage, Bob, is to increase it; it <em>just gets worse<\/em>. If we don\u2019t walk away, we have sleepless nights; we lose a lot of time; we\u2019re not present with our families; we\u2019re focused on people that will <em>never<\/em> change.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat helped me was a good friend of mine, Dr. Steve Willkie\u2014he\u2019s out in California\u2014he\u2019s been a marriage and family therapist for over 30 years. He saw how I was just hitting my head up against the wall\u2014and he thinks I\u2019m too nice\u2014 [Laughter] \u2014he said, \u201cGary, I want you to read the book of Luke. Count how many times Jesus walked away from people when they resisted Him or how many times He let people walk away from Him.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, I\u2019m a little OCD; we\u2019ve talked about that. I\u2019m not clinically, but I live in the neighborhood right next door to it, so I have to read all four Gospels. [Laughter] I count every possible occurrence and came up with 41. Now, some of those, because of the synoptic Gospels, refer to the same accounts. But it still left a couple dozen encounters, where Jesus spoke the truth, people asked Him to leave; and He left! He didn\u2019t sit there and fight. Then many times, when people were attacking Him, He didn\u2019t take it. He slipped away through the crowd.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, we think of Jesus as the <em>martyr<\/em>, who allowed Himself to be crucified\u2014<em>once<\/em>. But there were almost half-a-dozen occurrences, where people tried to beat Him up and attack Him, where He said, \u201cNot today; not today.\u201d He chose when to lay down His life, but He didn\u2019t allow people to abuse Him throughout His life. That was <em>eye-opening<\/em> for me. I can\u2019t tell you how that changed the way I looked at ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes, and that was eye-opening for me when I read it in your book. I <em>never<\/em>\u2014I mean, I\u2019ve been a pastor almost 40 years\u2014I\u2019ve taught the book of Luke\u2014I\u2019ve <em>never<\/em> looked at it through that lens. I\u2019m reading what you wrote\u2014and I want to know exactly\u2014that was a shaker for you; right? I mean, you read that, and it was like, \u201cOkay, I\u2019ve got to change the way I live.\u201d Is that what ended up happening?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> It did. It freed me up, because I looked back and I realized all the time I\u2019ve spent with toxic people has kept me from being present with my family: I\u2019m worried; I\u2019m obsessed: \u201cWhat do I say?\u201d It\u2019s kept me from positive ministry and interaction. What it\u2019s never done is bring a redemptive resolution with a toxic person. They don\u2019t change\u2014I don\u2019t change them; they don\u2019t change me\u2014it\u2019s wasted time. There\u2019s malice; there\u2019s ill will\/a lack of focus on helpful, positive fruit-fulfilling ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere\u2019s what I\u2019ve learned, Dave; and I think this is really one of Satan\u2019s most subtle attacks. He can\u2019t keep us from caring, because the Holy Spirit makes us care; I mean, it\u2019s God\u2019s love through us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> We <em>want<\/em> to love people, and he can\u2019t fight that. But what he can do, instead of having\u2014if you look at that love and care as pure water to irrigate the fields\u2014what he can do is divert that water, that would irrigate fields and produce a great crop, and get us to pour it straight down the gutter with someone, who not only won\u2019t receive it, but resents it and who will attack us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was Jesus\u2019s parable of: \u201cDon\u2019t throw your pearls before swine,\u201d that really opened up my eyes to that\u2014that some people are so spiritually closed\u2014you invite abuse upon yourself when you get involved with them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>At what point do you diagnose the difference between somebody, who\u2019s honestly engaged and trying to get help, and somebody who\u2019s just a toxic drain on you? How do you know the difference between one and the other?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Define toxic.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>I love that question, because I want to make it clear: \u201cDifficult people are not toxic; difficult people can just be difficult.\u201d The best way to describe it is: \u201cThey\u2019re bringing you down; they destroy your peace, your joy, your strength.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSomebody says, \u201cSo what\u2019s the big deal if they destroy my joy?\u201d Well, \u201cThe joy of the Lord is our\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob and Dave: <\/strong>\u201c\u2014strength.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>They make us weaker, and they make us obsess. I tried to, in three chapters, give sort of landmark qualities of toxic people. I don\u2019t think everybody is all of these; but when any one of these are present in a strong way, it gets me concerned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe first one is a very controlling nature. Toxic people want to control you: \u201cYou will do what I want you to do.\u201d I\u2019ll pretend to be your friend,\u201d \u201cI\u2019ll pretend I\u2019m in need,\u201d \u201cI\u2019ll pretend I\u2019m going to threaten you,\u201d \u201cI\u2019ll pretend I\u2019m going to protect you from others\u201d; but I am determined you will do what I want you to do,\u201d which is basically trying to take the role of God in someone\u2019s life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhenever you\u2019re feeling controlled\/demeaned\u2014like they don\u2019t want you to be you or don\u2019t want you to do what you believe God has called you to do\u2014that\u2019s a <em>big sign<\/em> that you\u2019re dealing with a toxic person.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe second thing is a murderous spirit; I know that sounds extreme. But just as God is a God of life, and He [is] a God that gave choice, Satan is the bringer of death and destruction. Jesus said Satan is a murderer, and He includes malice as a part of murder. Toxic people destroy reputations; they gossip about\/they destroy churches. You put one or two in a church, and it\u2019s just little undercutting\u2014they can even seem nice\u2014but they\u2019re undercutting the leadership. They destroy peace; they destroy joy. Everybody\u2019s having a good time; and they find a way to bring in guilt, or condemnation, or whatever it is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Those people\u2014who would tear you down, people who would attack you, people who would\u2014I\u2019m thinking you\u2019ve seen this\u2014insults, anger, the kind of demeaning language that husbands and wives can use against one another\/parents and children can use against one another. That\u2019s what you\u2019re talking about?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>Let me give an example. A woman I worked with\u2014God had called her; used her in ministry; was using her in ministry\u2014married, I would say, a toxic narcissist. This guy\u2019s world revolved around him. He controlled her, and he murdered her schedule. She had to do what he wanted her to do. She had appointments; she had her own thing. Her schedule had to revolve around his. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe murdered her self-esteem when he had an affair, early on, in their marriage. She\u2019s a godly woman\/beautiful woman. Of course, that doesn\u2019t have anything to do with it. If a guy\u2019s going to cheat, he\u2019s going to cheat. Now, she\u2019s thinking, \u201cHow can I be more as a wife? I must have let him down.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen he murdered her occupation. If he had to move, he moved. Regardless of how well her ministry was going, she had to follow. She did that her whole life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen they were in another situation where, because of his situation, money was tight; she was on a budget. She\u2019s at a party, and she sees this younger woman in this beautiful dress\u2014the kind of dress she couldn\u2019t afford anymore\u2014and her husband paying more than passing attention to her. Her wife\u2019s sense went off and said, \u201cThere is more here than an attraction.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe told him after the party: \u201cLook; I\u2019ve been through this before, and I forgave you.\u201d She forgave him heroically; I don\u2019t have time to get into the whole story. \u201cI\u2019m not going to do this again.\u201d He got so angry; she realized: \u201cIt\u2019s already happened. This isn\u2019t an attraction; this is already happening.\u201d He knew, because he was involved in Christian circles, his church and his occupation would not look well on a divorce and an affair; so he set about murdering her reputation. He used prayer requests: \u201cI don\u2019t think she\u2019s well. Would you please pray for my\u2026\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe figured out, because all these people were saying, \u201cHow are you doing, <em>really<\/em>? Are you sure you\u2026\u201d and just the way they looked at her. She thought she was losing her mind, because he\u2019s kind of murdering her sanity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe\u2019s like, \u201cWhat\u2019s going on?\u201d until he had set it up and then he divorced her. Of course, two days after the divorce is final, marries the woman who was in that dress at the party; thanking God that: \u201cBoy, in a year of difficulty and darkness, He\u2019s provided this comfort and this help.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was a <em>digital murder<\/em>. I saw the Facebook<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> page; my son say the Facebook page. We were appalled, because he called her \u201cMrs. John Doe,\u201d \u2014of course, not her real name\u2014which had been this other woman\u2019s name a week before: \u201cMeet Mrs. ...\u201d It was like he was just <em>wiping<\/em> her out.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, he still spread the stuff so that her ministry would end. It wasn\u2019t enough to take away her family, her reputation; now, \u201cSplit the time with the kids.\u201d If he thought anybody would hire her, that would look ill on him\u2014because if she\u2019s so awful he had to escape from her, then it might question his judgment if somebody thought she had anything to say\u2014so he set about <em>murdering<\/em> her ministry. That\u2019s toxicity at its highest level, where <em>they just want to kill<\/em> <em>everything<\/em> about you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Gary, we hear an account like that, and all of us, I think, cringe. Some of our listeners are going, \u201cThat does sound like me.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou said there\u2019s a third component to toxicity, in addition to control and a murderous spirit. What\u2019s the third one?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>The third one is: \u201cLoving hate.\u201d I use the cilantro analogy. I <em>hate<\/em> cilantro; I call it the adolescent of herbs: \u201cNotice me,\u201d \u201cNotice me,\u201d \u201cNotice me!\u201d [Laughter] It wants to <em>own<\/em> the room. But it\u2019s a genetic thing, where most people love cilantro; they find it delicious. I just\u2014genetically, I just hate it. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s about our spiritual taste buds. Loving hate: \u201cWhat do you find delicious, spiritually?\u201d In a healthy person, according to Colossians 3, things that we love\u2014what we want to be, where we feel it fits, this is delicious to us\u2014is compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, patience, and love. We don\u2019t all get that, but that\u2019s what we should aspire to; it\u2019s the kind of people we want to be around. That\u2019s what gets us energized. We recognize that and say, \u201cThat\u2019s a good meal.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPaul says the other kind that we need to worry about is in Colossians 3:18. This is the toxic people who love hate: they love anger, rage, malice, slander, filthy language and lying. They <em>come alive<\/em> when they\u2019re in a battle; they <em>come alive<\/em> when they\u2019re <em>whispering<\/em> about someone. They <em>come alive<\/em> when they\u2019re attacking someone. It makes them feel like they have purpose; like they have mission. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA lot of us\u2014we get angry and we might even gossip\u2014but when we do, it\u2019s like having the flu; we want to take a shower.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>We want to say, \u201cI want to get off of that; that\u2019s not who I want to be.\u201d If you come out of a gossip session, you just feel, \u201cOh, man!\u201d But for a toxic person\u2014those kinds of activities: they like it; they love it\u2014with all due apologies to McGraw\u2014they want some more of it. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo those are three things\u2014where control-mongering, murdering, <em>loving hate<\/em>\u2014where you don\u2019t just do it\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You draw energy from it; yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>Yes; those are things, where my senses go up now; and I\u2019m realizing, \u201cI think I may be dealing with a toxic person.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>It\u2019s interesting. Several of your examples are <em>extreme<\/em>. There\u2019s part of me that goes, \u201cOkay, I don\u2019t know somebody that bad,\u201d or \u201cHopefully, I\u2019m not that bad\u201d; but it doesn\u2019t have to be that extreme to be toxic; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things you really do a good job of, that really got my interest, was: \u201cWhy do I want to confront somebody? It isn\u2019t that they\u2019re stealing my joy. They\u2019re stealing me from my <em>mission<\/em>.\u201d That was <em>huge<\/em>; explain that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>For me, this isn\u2019t about self-protection. I am not a therapist; I\u2019m not a psychologist; I seek the Scriptures. When you hear the \u201ctoxic\u201d title, most people think it\u2019s the psychological word of the day. There is more Scripture in <em>When to Walk Away<\/em> than any book I\u2019ve done. I was astonished at how often it is addressed, conceptually, in Scripture; of course, the word isn\u2019t there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat got me excited was: \u201cThis is to preserve your mission before the Lord.\u201d We get into that, for me, Matthew 6:33: \u201cSeek ye first the kingdom of God.\u201d Second \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTimothy 2:2\u2014ground into me by a wonderful, gifted and godly campus pastor; I\u2019ll be forever grateful\u2014\u201cFind reliable people with whom you can invest what God has given you,\u201d\u2014that your life should be a search of giving what you have into others and building them up. I realized: \u201cThis is about <em>protecting<\/em> my spiritual offense. If I\u2019m seeking first the kingdom of God, I wake up with His agenda: \u2018Who does He want me to talk to? How does He want to use me today? How do I find reliable people to invest in, to encourage, to build up?\u2019 I don\u2019t have time for the toxic people.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI have that paradigm now: \u201cIs this person reliable or toxic?\u201d I believe it\u2019s a <em>biblical<\/em> command to <em>find <\/em>reliable people, and build them up, and equip them, and release them. It\u2019s easy to get diverted into being distracted and wanting to improve toxic people or take out toxic people. I think that\u2019s like driving by a freeway and stopping every time you see trash; that\u2019s not what you\u2019re supposed to do in life. Somebody else will deal with it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen it\u2019s toxic people, the difference is: \u201cIf you\u2019re driving down a road, and the trash is so big you can\u2019t drive your car, you get out\u2014you remove the tree limb\/you remove the trash; you remove the tire, and then you go,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s my attitude toward toxic people\u2014\u201cDrive by when I can; confront when you must, but only to the extent that you can move them out of the way to complete the good work God has called you to do.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This was helpful for me, too, as I read through that analysis. But I found myself thinking, Gary, \u201cWhat about lonely people, who can be draining and can divert you from a broader mission? Are we to invest in the lives of lonely people?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I have an exact example of that. Dave and I were first married; we were pouring into all these people. But there was one woman that would dominate the conversation. She lived close to us, so every single day she would come over and spend hours\/hours and hours, talking about her problems. Even when she was given some sort of advice or \u201cMaybe you could do this,\u201d she would <em>never<\/em> change. It would be the same thing every single day. Was she toxic? Is that an example of a toxic person?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>Here\u2019s what I\u2019ve found\u2014it takes humility; it\u2019s almost counterintuitive\u2014I\u2019m not the best person to reach every person in this world; that\u2019s why we need a church. I think God has given some people particular gifts to reach certain people. But I don\u2019t think any of us are best with <em>other <\/em>kinds of people. When somebody is bringing us down, and keeping us from the ability of investing in those we are called to invest to, we can trust God that He\u2019s going to bring someone that can, at least, give this person a chance. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s like this\u2014if we go to Dave\u2019s football background\u2014when you\u2019ve got a guy, who\u2019s \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t165 pounds, the coach isn\u2019t putting him on the offensive line. [Laughter] He\u2019s the kicker, or he\u2019s the punter; because he\u2019s going to get <em>destroyed<\/em> by a defensive lineman. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> In the same way, if you\u2019ve got a guy that\u2019s 350 pounds, he\u2019s probably not kicking the field goal. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s recognizing, in humility: \u201cGod is over His church; God is building His church; God is gifting His church; we need more workers, so let\u2019s reach those we can.\u201d This is where it\u2019s hard, Ann. But I think of the image of triage on a battlefield. I think of D-Day, when those medics would go and put \u201cM\u201d on a guy\u2019s forehead. What that meant is: \u201cI gave him morphine; he can\u2019t be saved. I want to find somebody who might yet be saved.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJesus says, throughout Scripture: \u201cPray for the Lord of the harvest...we need more workers\u201d; and today, we <em>need more workers<\/em>. To divert our work to somebody that we know we\u2019re not going to reach\u2014in fact, that will remove our joy, remove our peace, remove our zeal; so we\u2019ll lose an opportunity to talk to five other people\u2014I think we kind of have to have spiritual triage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want <em>urgency<\/em> for the church. We have a generation running away from the truth. We need more workers, and we need urgency. That means we have to play <em>defense<\/em> and not <em>waste<\/em> our efforts.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We\u2019re going to spend some time this week looking at how this applies in family relationships, because that\u2019s really where it gets tricky: marriages, parents, kids, extended family relationships\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014in-laws.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes, right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI hope our listeners will get a copy of your book, Gary, and start to meditate on this; pray about this; look at the relationships in their lives from a missional perspective, as you\u2019re saying\u2014not from a self-interest perspective\/not from a \u201cWhat would please me?\u201d\u2014but from: \u201cHow can I best serve God?\u201d and \u201cHow do these relationships fit into that?\u201d That\u2019s really at the heart of this book. We are making your book available this week, Gary, to listeners who can help support the ministry of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> with a donation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think most of our listeners know that <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is listener-supported. The reason you\u2019ve been able to listen to today\u2019s conversation is because other listeners, like you, made that possible for you. We want to ask you to join the team and make <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>possible for people in your city and people, literally, around the world, who are connecting with us on the <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> app, those who are tuning in via Alexa<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, those who listen on this local radio station. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou make that possible when you support this ministry. If you can help with a donation today, we\u2019d love to send you a copy of Gary\u2019s book, which is called <em>When to Walk Away<\/em>. You can go to our website to donate; go to FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation. Again, donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d Just say, \u201cI\u2019d like to make a donation; and I\u2019d <em>love<\/em> to get a copy of Gary Thomas\u2019s book, <em>When to Walk Away<\/em>.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to continue our conversation with Gary Thomas and talk about how we can know whether we actually have a destructive\/a toxic relationship or whether we\u2019re just dealing with somebody, who\u2019s a little hard to get along with from time to time. Gary will be with us, again, tomorrow. We hope you be here as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch. We got some help from Bruce Goff. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:27:09"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["24.86M"],"filesize_raw":["26072453"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-306729.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-306729.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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it's best to just walk away. That's what Gary Thomas wants you to know when facing toxic people. Thomas explains how, in the gospels, Jesus walked away from people 41 times.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-02-15.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>God designed relationships to be life-giving and life-affirming. Author and pastor, Gary Thomas, says some relationships are life-depleting; they\u2019re toxic.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>Toxic people want to control you: \u201cYou will do what I want you to do,\u201d \u201cI\u2019ll pretend to be your friend,\u201d \u201cI\u2019ll pretend I\u2019m in need,\u201d \u201cI\u2019ll pretend I\u2019m going to threaten you,\u201d \u201c4I\u2019ll pretend I\u2019m going to protect you from others.\u201d Whenever you\u2019re feeling controlled, demeaned, like they don\u2019t want you to do what you believe God has called you to do, that\u2019s a <em>big sign<\/em> that you\u2019re dealing with a toxic person.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, February 15<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. How can we recognize toxic relationships, and what do we do when we have one? We\u2019re going to talk more about that today with Gary Thomas. Stay tuned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. You guys know\u2014our listeners don\u2019t know\u2014but you guys know the amazing Tonda; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Tonda does\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Oh, we sure do.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>She is amazing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>She is amazing. She has, for more than 25 years, done research for <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. She\u2014I calculated this the other day\u2014she has to have read more than 2,000 books on marriage and family over the last 25 years, and she\u2019s a single woman; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>She\u2019s given us all kinds of data\/information; helped us out. She came to me\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014a month or so ago, and she said, \u201cGary Thomas has a new book coming out.\u201d I said, \u201cBook him.\u201d She said, \u201cDon\u2019t you even want to know what the title is or what he\u2026\u201d [Laughter] I said, \u201cI don\u2019t need to know. It\u2019s Gary Thomas. He\u2019s writing a book; it\u2019s going to be on relationships, because that\u2019s what he\u2019s on. It\u2019s going to be biblical; it\u2019s going to have wisdom.\u201d I mean, you don\u2019t need to know anything else; right?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Who doesn\u2019t want Gary Thomas?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>No-brainer!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Then I see what it\u2019s about and I go, \u201cWell, maybe we should have talked to him.\u201d [Laughter] Gary, welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>Thank you, Bob. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Gary has been a regular guest here since the book, <em>Sacred Marriage<\/em>, was released now 20 years ago?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>Twenty years ago.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Wow! I actually\/I read <em>Sacred Pathways<\/em> before I read <em>Sacred Marriage<\/em>, and that was so helpful on the whole subject of worship and different approaches to worship. I still think of that as one of those books I recommend to people. Since then, <em>Sacred Parenting<\/em>, <em>Sacred Influence<\/em>; you\u2019ve written 20 books, give or take. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>Yes; I don\u2019t really actually count, but I think it\u2019s at 20.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Gary has written a book called <em>When to Walk Away: Finding Freedom from Toxic People<\/em>. This is\u2014I mean, I\u2019m thinking about subjects you could tackle, and you\u2014I mean, I know you!\u2014this is kind of like, \u201cGary\u2019s writing about toxic people?\u201d because you\u2019re so nice.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u201cYou\u2019re so nice!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Exactly!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>Well, and that\u2019s how I got eaten up by toxic people. It was terribly prideful; but I had this false messianic complex\u2014that if I was walking in holiness, walking in wisdom, prayed up, surrendered to the Holy Spirit, had the right words and the right attitude\u2014that everybody I talked to would see the glory of Jesus and say, \u201cOf course, you\u2019re right,\u201d and turn to Him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe <em>see <\/em>Jesus\u2014what He\u2019s done in our life\u2014and we can think, \u201cWhy doesn\u2019t everybody <em>want<\/em> Him?\u201d That gave way then to some people taking advantage of that. It took me years until I learned, in addition to spiritual <em>offense<\/em>, you need to sometimes learn how to play spiritual <em>defense<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You had somebody come to you and say, \u201cWould you read my book and give me some feedback?\u201d\u2014right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>Well, it was really two. I\u2019d written a blog post on a particular issue, and it exploded. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>People were talking about it. You would think she would be happy, because it was sort of her issue. She said, \u201cThis is great. Here are two books you need to read to get up on it.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI said, \u201cYou know, this isn\u2019t going to be a ministry of mine; there are others that could address it more. It was a one-time blog post. I don\u2019t have time to read two full books. I\u2019m sure they\u2019re great books, but\u2026\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>In the meantime, I just didn\u2019t want to <em>lie<\/em>. <em>Boy<\/em>, talk about making an enemy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>She came after you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>She did attack reviews on Amazon and other books, and I\u2019ve never seen anything like it. Then what really shut it down and what opened up my eyes is when the attacks were on my wife.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Whoa!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>When they started doing <em>that<\/em>, that\u2019s easier for me\u2014even though I\u2019m a people- pleaser\u2014\u201cYou mess with my wife, and now I know where you\u2019re coming from.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Honestly, I thought about, as I was reading that story, I thought of the current environment on Twitter<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. I think more than on Facebook<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> or Instagram<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Twitter seems to be the breeding ground\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Twitter is the ground. I don\u2019t know why, but it is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014where it\u2019s just toxic relationships blossom and thrive on Twitter. People are daily having to block followers to avoid the kind of toxic engagement that you talk about in this book.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>To engage, Bob, is to increase it; it <em>just gets worse<\/em>. If we don\u2019t walk away, we have sleepless nights; we lose a lot of time; we\u2019re not present with our families; we\u2019re focused on people that will <em>never<\/em> change.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat helped me was a good friend of mine, Dr. Steve Willkie\u2014he\u2019s out in California\u2014he\u2019s been a marriage and family therapist for over 30 years. He saw how I was just hitting my head up against the wall\u2014and he thinks I\u2019m too nice\u2014 [Laughter] \u2014he said, \u201cGary, I want you to read the book of Luke. Count how many times Jesus walked away from people when they resisted Him or how many times He let people walk away from Him.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, I\u2019m a little OCD; we\u2019ve talked about that. I\u2019m not clinically, but I live in the neighborhood right next door to it, so I have to read all four Gospels. [Laughter] I count every possible occurrence and came up with 41. Now, some of those, because of the synoptic Gospels, refer to the same accounts. But it still left a couple dozen encounters, where Jesus spoke the truth, people asked Him to leave; and He left! He didn\u2019t sit there and fight. Then many times, when people were attacking Him, He didn\u2019t take it. He slipped away through the crowd.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, we think of Jesus as the <em>martyr<\/em>, who allowed Himself to be crucified\u2014<em>once<\/em>. But there were almost half-a-dozen occurrences, where people tried to beat Him up and attack Him, where He said, \u201cNot today; not today.\u201d He chose when to lay down His life, but He didn\u2019t allow people to abuse Him throughout His life. That was <em>eye-opening<\/em> for me. I can\u2019t tell you how that changed the way I looked at ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes, and that was eye-opening for me when I read it in your book. I <em>never<\/em>\u2014I mean, I\u2019ve been a pastor almost 40 years\u2014I\u2019ve taught the book of Luke\u2014I\u2019ve <em>never<\/em> looked at it through that lens. I\u2019m reading what you wrote\u2014and I want to know exactly\u2014that was a shaker for you; right? I mean, you read that, and it was like, \u201cOkay, I\u2019ve got to change the way I live.\u201d Is that what ended up happening?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> It did. It freed me up, because I looked back and I realized all the time I\u2019ve spent with toxic people has kept me from being present with my family: I\u2019m worried; I\u2019m obsessed: \u201cWhat do I say?\u201d It\u2019s kept me from positive ministry and interaction. What it\u2019s never done is bring a redemptive resolution with a toxic person. They don\u2019t change\u2014I don\u2019t change them; they don\u2019t change me\u2014it\u2019s wasted time. There\u2019s malice; there\u2019s ill will\/a lack of focus on helpful, positive fruit-fulfilling ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere\u2019s what I\u2019ve learned, Dave; and I think this is really one of Satan\u2019s most subtle attacks. He can\u2019t keep us from caring, because the Holy Spirit makes us care; I mean, it\u2019s God\u2019s love through us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> We <em>want<\/em> to love people, and he can\u2019t fight that. But what he can do, instead of having\u2014if you look at that love and care as pure water to irrigate the fields\u2014what he can do is divert that water, that would irrigate fields and produce a great crop, and get us to pour it straight down the gutter with someone, who not only won\u2019t receive it, but resents it and who will attack us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was Jesus\u2019s parable of: \u201cDon\u2019t throw your pearls before swine,\u201d that really opened up my eyes to that\u2014that some people are so spiritually closed\u2014you invite abuse upon yourself when you get involved with them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>At what point do you diagnose the difference between somebody, who\u2019s honestly engaged and trying to get help, and somebody who\u2019s just a toxic drain on you? How do you know the difference between one and the other?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Define toxic.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>I love that question, because I want to make it clear: \u201cDifficult people are not toxic; difficult people can just be difficult.\u201d The best way to describe it is: \u201cThey\u2019re bringing you down; they destroy your peace, your joy, your strength.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSomebody says, \u201cSo what\u2019s the big deal if they destroy my joy?\u201d Well, \u201cThe joy of the Lord is our\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob and Dave: <\/strong>\u201c\u2014strength.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>They make us weaker, and they make us obsess. I tried to, in three chapters, give sort of landmark qualities of toxic people. I don\u2019t think everybody is all of these; but when any one of these are present in a strong way, it gets me concerned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe first one is a very controlling nature. Toxic people want to control you: \u201cYou will do what I want you to do.\u201d I\u2019ll pretend to be your friend,\u201d \u201cI\u2019ll pretend I\u2019m in need,\u201d \u201cI\u2019ll pretend I\u2019m going to threaten you,\u201d \u201cI\u2019ll pretend I\u2019m going to protect you from others\u201d; but I am determined you will do what I want you to do,\u201d which is basically trying to take the role of God in someone\u2019s life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhenever you\u2019re feeling controlled\/demeaned\u2014like they don\u2019t want you to be you or don\u2019t want you to do what you believe God has called you to do\u2014that\u2019s a <em>big sign<\/em> that you\u2019re dealing with a toxic person.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe second thing is a murderous spirit; I know that sounds extreme. But just as God is a God of life, and He [is] a God that gave choice, Satan is the bringer of death and destruction. Jesus said Satan is a murderer, and He includes malice as a part of murder. Toxic people destroy reputations; they gossip about\/they destroy churches. You put one or two in a church, and it\u2019s just little undercutting\u2014they can even seem nice\u2014but they\u2019re undercutting the leadership. They destroy peace; they destroy joy. Everybody\u2019s having a good time; and they find a way to bring in guilt, or condemnation, or whatever it is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Those people\u2014who would tear you down, people who would attack you, people who would\u2014I\u2019m thinking you\u2019ve seen this\u2014insults, anger, the kind of demeaning language that husbands and wives can use against one another\/parents and children can use against one another. That\u2019s what you\u2019re talking about?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>Let me give an example. A woman I worked with\u2014God had called her; used her in ministry; was using her in ministry\u2014married, I would say, a toxic narcissist. This guy\u2019s world revolved around him. He controlled her, and he murdered her schedule. She had to do what he wanted her to do. She had appointments; she had her own thing. Her schedule had to revolve around his. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe murdered her self-esteem when he had an affair, early on, in their marriage. She\u2019s a godly woman\/beautiful woman. Of course, that doesn\u2019t have anything to do with it. If a guy\u2019s going to cheat, he\u2019s going to cheat. Now, she\u2019s thinking, \u201cHow can I be more as a wife? I must have let him down.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen he murdered her occupation. If he had to move, he moved. Regardless of how well her ministry was going, she had to follow. She did that her whole life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen they were in another situation where, because of his situation, money was tight; she was on a budget. She\u2019s at a party, and she sees this younger woman in this beautiful dress\u2014the kind of dress she couldn\u2019t afford anymore\u2014and her husband paying more than passing attention to her. Her wife\u2019s sense went off and said, \u201cThere is more here than an attraction.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe told him after the party: \u201cLook; I\u2019ve been through this before, and I forgave you.\u201d She forgave him heroically; I don\u2019t have time to get into the whole story. \u201cI\u2019m not going to do this again.\u201d He got so angry; she realized: \u201cIt\u2019s already happened. This isn\u2019t an attraction; this is already happening.\u201d He knew, because he was involved in Christian circles, his church and his occupation would not look well on a divorce and an affair; so he set about murdering her reputation. He used prayer requests: \u201cI don\u2019t think she\u2019s well. Would you please pray for my\u2026\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe figured out, because all these people were saying, \u201cHow are you doing, <em>really<\/em>? Are you sure you\u2026\u201d and just the way they looked at her. She thought she was losing her mind, because he\u2019s kind of murdering her sanity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe\u2019s like, \u201cWhat\u2019s going on?\u201d until he had set it up and then he divorced her. Of course, two days after the divorce is final, marries the woman who was in that dress at the party; thanking God that: \u201cBoy, in a year of difficulty and darkness, He\u2019s provided this comfort and this help.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was a <em>digital murder<\/em>. I saw the Facebook<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> page; my son say the Facebook page. We were appalled, because he called her \u201cMrs. John Doe,\u201d \u2014of course, not her real name\u2014which had been this other woman\u2019s name a week before: \u201cMeet Mrs. ...\u201d It was like he was just <em>wiping<\/em> her out.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, he still spread the stuff so that her ministry would end. It wasn\u2019t enough to take away her family, her reputation; now, \u201cSplit the time with the kids.\u201d If he thought anybody would hire her, that would look ill on him\u2014because if she\u2019s so awful he had to escape from her, then it might question his judgment if somebody thought she had anything to say\u2014so he set about <em>murdering<\/em> her ministry. That\u2019s toxicity at its highest level, where <em>they just want to kill<\/em> <em>everything<\/em> about you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Gary, we hear an account like that, and all of us, I think, cringe. Some of our listeners are going, \u201cThat does sound like me.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou said there\u2019s a third component to toxicity, in addition to control and a murderous spirit. What\u2019s the third one?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>The third one is: \u201cLoving hate.\u201d I use the cilantro analogy. I <em>hate<\/em> cilantro; I call it the adolescent of herbs: \u201cNotice me,\u201d \u201cNotice me,\u201d \u201cNotice me!\u201d [Laughter] It wants to <em>own<\/em> the room. But it\u2019s a genetic thing, where most people love cilantro; they find it delicious. I just\u2014genetically, I just hate it. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s about our spiritual taste buds. Loving hate: \u201cWhat do you find delicious, spiritually?\u201d In a healthy person, according to Colossians 3, things that we love\u2014what we want to be, where we feel it fits, this is delicious to us\u2014is compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, patience, and love. We don\u2019t all get that, but that\u2019s what we should aspire to; it\u2019s the kind of people we want to be around. That\u2019s what gets us energized. We recognize that and say, \u201cThat\u2019s a good meal.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPaul says the other kind that we need to worry about is in Colossians 3:18. This is the toxic people who love hate: they love anger, rage, malice, slander, filthy language and lying. They <em>come alive<\/em> when they\u2019re in a battle; they <em>come alive<\/em> when they\u2019re <em>whispering<\/em> about someone. They <em>come alive<\/em> when they\u2019re attacking someone. It makes them feel like they have purpose; like they have mission. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA lot of us\u2014we get angry and we might even gossip\u2014but when we do, it\u2019s like having the flu; we want to take a shower.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>We want to say, \u201cI want to get off of that; that\u2019s not who I want to be.\u201d If you come out of a gossip session, you just feel, \u201cOh, man!\u201d But for a toxic person\u2014those kinds of activities: they like it; they love it\u2014with all due apologies to McGraw\u2014they want some more of it. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo those are three things\u2014where control-mongering, murdering, <em>loving hate<\/em>\u2014where you don\u2019t just do it\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You draw energy from it; yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>Yes; those are things, where my senses go up now; and I\u2019m realizing, \u201cI think I may be dealing with a toxic person.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>It\u2019s interesting. Several of your examples are <em>extreme<\/em>. There\u2019s part of me that goes, \u201cOkay, I don\u2019t know somebody that bad,\u201d or \u201cHopefully, I\u2019m not that bad\u201d; but it doesn\u2019t have to be that extreme to be toxic; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things you really do a good job of, that really got my interest, was: \u201cWhy do I want to confront somebody? It isn\u2019t that they\u2019re stealing my joy. They\u2019re stealing me from my <em>mission<\/em>.\u201d That was <em>huge<\/em>; explain that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>For me, this isn\u2019t about self-protection. I am not a therapist; I\u2019m not a psychologist; I seek the Scriptures. When you hear the \u201ctoxic\u201d title, most people think it\u2019s the psychological word of the day. There is more Scripture in <em>When to Walk Away<\/em> than any book I\u2019ve done. I was astonished at how often it is addressed, conceptually, in Scripture; of course, the word isn\u2019t there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat got me excited was: \u201cThis is to preserve your mission before the Lord.\u201d We get into that, for me, Matthew 6:33: \u201cSeek ye first the kingdom of God.\u201d Second \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTimothy 2:2\u2014ground into me by a wonderful, gifted and godly campus pastor; I\u2019ll be forever grateful\u2014\u201cFind reliable people with whom you can invest what God has given you,\u201d\u2014that your life should be a search of giving what you have into others and building them up. I realized: \u201cThis is about <em>protecting<\/em> my spiritual offense. If I\u2019m seeking first the kingdom of God, I wake up with His agenda: \u2018Who does He want me to talk to? How does He want to use me today? How do I find reliable people to invest in, to encourage, to build up?\u2019 I don\u2019t have time for the toxic people.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI have that paradigm now: \u201cIs this person reliable or toxic?\u201d I believe it\u2019s a <em>biblical<\/em> command to <em>find <\/em>reliable people, and build them up, and equip them, and release them. It\u2019s easy to get diverted into being distracted and wanting to improve toxic people or take out toxic people. I think that\u2019s like driving by a freeway and stopping every time you see trash; that\u2019s not what you\u2019re supposed to do in life. Somebody else will deal with it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen it\u2019s toxic people, the difference is: \u201cIf you\u2019re driving down a road, and the trash is so big you can\u2019t drive your car, you get out\u2014you remove the tree limb\/you remove the trash; you remove the tire, and then you go,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s my attitude toward toxic people\u2014\u201cDrive by when I can; confront when you must, but only to the extent that you can move them out of the way to complete the good work God has called you to do.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This was helpful for me, too, as I read through that analysis. But I found myself thinking, Gary, \u201cWhat about lonely people, who can be draining and can divert you from a broader mission? Are we to invest in the lives of lonely people?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I have an exact example of that. Dave and I were first married; we were pouring into all these people. But there was one woman that would dominate the conversation. She lived close to us, so every single day she would come over and spend hours\/hours and hours, talking about her problems. Even when she was given some sort of advice or \u201cMaybe you could do this,\u201d she would <em>never<\/em> change. It would be the same thing every single day. Was she toxic? Is that an example of a toxic person?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary: <\/strong>Here\u2019s what I\u2019ve found\u2014it takes humility; it\u2019s almost counterintuitive\u2014I\u2019m not the best person to reach every person in this world; that\u2019s why we need a church. I think God has given some people particular gifts to reach certain people. But I don\u2019t think any of us are best with <em>other <\/em>kinds of people. When somebody is bringing us down, and keeping us from the ability of investing in those we are called to invest to, we can trust God that He\u2019s going to bring someone that can, at least, give this person a chance. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s like this\u2014if we go to Dave\u2019s football background\u2014when you\u2019ve got a guy, who\u2019s \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t165 pounds, the coach isn\u2019t putting him on the offensive line. [Laughter] He\u2019s the kicker, or he\u2019s the punter; because he\u2019s going to get <em>destroyed<\/em> by a defensive lineman. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong> In the same way, if you\u2019ve got a guy that\u2019s 350 pounds, he\u2019s probably not kicking the field goal. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s recognizing, in humility: \u201cGod is over His church; God is building His church; God is gifting His church; we need more workers, so let\u2019s reach those we can.\u201d This is where it\u2019s hard, Ann. But I think of the image of triage on a battlefield. I think of D-Day, when those medics would go and put \u201cM\u201d on a guy\u2019s forehead. What that meant is: \u201cI gave him morphine; he can\u2019t be saved. I want to find somebody who might yet be saved.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJesus says, throughout Scripture: \u201cPray for the Lord of the harvest...we need more workers\u201d; and today, we <em>need more workers<\/em>. To divert our work to somebody that we know we\u2019re not going to reach\u2014in fact, that will remove our joy, remove our peace, remove our zeal; so we\u2019ll lose an opportunity to talk to five other people\u2014I think we kind of have to have spiritual triage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want <em>urgency<\/em> for the church. We have a generation running away from the truth. We need more workers, and we need urgency. That means we have to play <em>defense<\/em> and not <em>waste<\/em> our efforts.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We\u2019re going to spend some time this week looking at how this applies in family relationships, because that\u2019s really where it gets tricky: marriages, parents, kids, extended family relationships\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014in-laws.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes, right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI hope our listeners will get a copy of your book, Gary, and start to meditate on this; pray about this; look at the relationships in their lives from a missional perspective, as you\u2019re saying\u2014not from a self-interest perspective\/not from a \u201cWhat would please me?\u201d\u2014but from: \u201cHow can I best serve God?\u201d and \u201cHow do these relationships fit into that?\u201d That\u2019s really at the heart of this book. We are making your book available this week, Gary, to listeners who can help support the ministry of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> with a donation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think most of our listeners know that <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is listener-supported. The reason you\u2019ve been able to listen to today\u2019s conversation is because other listeners, like you, made that possible for you. We want to ask you to join the team and make <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>possible for people in your city and people, literally, around the world, who are connecting with us on the <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> app, those who are tuning in via Alexa<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, those who listen on this local radio station. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou make that possible when you support this ministry. If you can help with a donation today, we\u2019d love to send you a copy of Gary\u2019s book, which is called <em>When to Walk Away<\/em>. You can go to our website to donate; go to FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation. Again, donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329; that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d Just say, \u201cI\u2019d like to make a donation; and I\u2019d <em>love<\/em> to get a copy of Gary Thomas\u2019s book, <em>When to Walk Away<\/em>.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to continue our conversation with Gary Thomas and talk about how we can know whether we actually have a destructive\/a toxic relationship or whether we\u2019re just dealing with somebody, who\u2019s a little hard to get along with from time to time. Gary will be with us, again, tomorrow. We hope you be here as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch. We got some help from Bruce Goff. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/306729","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=306729"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=306729"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=306729"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=306729"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=306729"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=306729"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=306729"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}